Kermode & Mayo’s Take - SCHITT’S CREEK and Moira Rose: this is narcissism – SHRINK THE BOX

Episode Date: August 20, 2024

Ben and Nemone put Moira Rose on the couch and take a deep dive into her narcissistic tendencies, and what effect that has on the rest of the Schitts. Nemone explains how narcissism is not as easy to spot as its widespread use would have you believe. We also discuss the collection of wigs that Moira keeps in her closet and why they are transitional objects. And if you’re interested in hearing more on narcissism, then check out our episode on Game of Thrones’ Cersei Lannister. We want to hear about any theories we might have missed, what you’ve thought of the show so far and your character suggestions. Please drop the team an email (which may be part of the show): [e-mail] NEXT CLIENTS ON THE COUCH. Find out how to view here Raymond Holt, Brooklyn 99 (selected episodes) Jackson Lamb, Slow Horses (Season 1) Carrie Bradshaw, Sex and the City (selected episodes) CREDITS We used clips from episodes of Schitt’s Creek. It’s available to watch on Netflix. Starring: Eugene Levy - Johnny Rose Catherine O'Hara - Moira Rose Daniel Levy - David Rose Annie Murphy - Alexis Rose Created by: Daniel Levy Eugene Levy Directed by: Jerry Ciccoritti Paul Fox Produced by: Eugene Levy Dan Levy Fred Levy Andrew Barnsley Ben Feigin Kevin White David West Read We would love to hear your theories: [e-mail] A Sony Music Entertainment production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts. To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [e-mail]. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey Simon, I've been thinking about the great collaborations of cinema. Do go on. Well, John Ford and John Wayne, Francis McDormand and the Coen's, Hanks and Spielberg. NordVPN and Take listeners. Thank you, pardon? Oh, you know what I'm talking about. This is a subscription to NordVPN. It's essential if you want to access all your TV shows and films on streaming services from

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description box. Convinced Mark? It's like Eastwood and Leone all over again. So on with the show. Hello, it's Simon and Mark here. This week, Ben and Nimone are putting Moira Rose from Schitt's Creek on the couch. Yeah, we all feel a bit Moira at times, out of control, hiding in wardrobes, trying to pretend to be someone else. Well, not me, but I'm sure some of us do.

Expect a glory in all Moira's eccentricities. I'm sure you will. Ben and Nimone would love your emails. Voice notes at shrinktheboxsonymusic.com. Stavros is flying in to get me and I'm going to go live with him for a little bit. Well that is not happening and I am appalled that my baby girl has turned into a selfish, duplicitous... Oh hello!

Hi, I'm Twyla. I'll be your waitress today. Could you give us a moment please? Whenever you're ready. I'm just right over here. I forbid you to abandon our family. I am a grown woman mother. This is the act of a spoiled child.

The world is falling apart around us, and we are all just like you. We are all just like you. We are all just like you. We are all just like you. We are all just like you. We are all just like you. We are all just like you. I am a grown woman mother. This is the act of a spoiled child. The world is falling apart around us John and I'm dying inside. Well I'm feeling a little queasy myself. Ben Bailey Smith here.

And I'm Namo Metaxas. And welcome to the podcast where we put our favorite fictional TV characters into therapy. We're going to take a deep dive into a character and look at what their issues might be and how they might be addressed in real life. We also want to hear from you guys, you guys help complete us and complete the show. So let us know what you think about our theories and tell us yours. Namo, would you be so kind as to tell us about that first clip? Oh, I can't wait. That, of course, was Moira Rose, the very lovable, flamboyant narcissistic mother in the much-loved multi-award-winning Schitt's Creek about a very

privileged family, of course, who were forced to go up everything they own and then go and live in a tiny backwater town. And in that scene, the whole family are wondering why daughter Alexis is taking this kind of move or fall from grace so well. And as you heard, she reveals she's going to be whisked off by her boyfriend, or so she believes. And in that particular scene, we get Moira in glorious technicolor. It's all about her. She's the star of the show.

We'll be tired. Anyone who tries to upstage her, she's rude, high drama. Moira. She's the star of the show. We'll be tired. Anyone who tries to upstage her, she's rude, high drama. Moira. She's incredible. And, you know, for those of you who've been following the show for a while, you'll remember that in season one, we looked at Schitt's Creek through the lens of David and his sister Alexis. Yes.

So we had a look at a few different little sibling dynamics with Ross and Monica. That was all a lot of fun. But this time we're going to get into probably my favorite character in Schitt's Creek, Catherine Ahara's Moira. Yeah, she's wonderful. It's a barnstorming performance. Even when the story isn't really about her in certain episodes, she steals every single scene she's in.

In the clothes that she wears, in the position that she takes in the scene. In the closet that she's hiding in. Literally. And that she eventually comes out of. I mean, I think we love to watch her. There's an essential dichotomy at the heart of her character. She is highly judgmental, standoffish. She's rude.

We just heard it. But she has her softer moments. She's rude. We just heard it. But she has her softer moments. She's lovable. And she is loving when she wants to be and when it suits her, of course. She loves to be social when she can choose who she wants to be with. Important. And deep down, we kind of get the feeling she does care about the family staying together as a family unit. Although I have to say if a Greek shipping magnet turned up to come and pick her up, I think she'd have no problem in waving goodbye to Johnny, David and Alexis in a flash. Yeah, absolutely. All right, well keep listening

then because we are going to ask how do we spot a true narcissist and why Moira behaves like a toddler and what's behind all those wigs and their names? There's a spoiler zone in this as there is in every Shrink the Box episode. So just take this as a warning, take heed and there's behind all those wigs and their names. There's a spoiler zone in this as there is in every Shrink the Box episode. So just take this as a warning, take heed. And there's probably gonna be subjects of an adult nature. I mean, it's Shrink the Box. So with all that in mind, get your designer black and white garms on

and welcome to another Shrink the Box. ["Shrink the Box Theme"] Everything to play for has taken on its biggest challenge yet. We've had two-parters, we've even had three-parters. This is a four-parter and the reason why we're giving it four podcasts is it's probably the greatest individual rivalry in Premier League history. Yes, us and Wenger versus Alex Ferguson, we've bitten off more than we can chew. And what it reminds me of, I saw a video on social media the other day

of a Python having swallowed a duvet. And the vets were trying to get the duvet out of the Python. I thought that is like me and Colin having to skip over FA Cup finals because there's so much to talk about when it comes to Wenger and Ferguson. Doubles, trebles, pizza around the face. it has everything. If you want to listen to the podcast equivalent of a python swallowing a duvet, follow everything to play for on the Wondry app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge seasons early and ad free right now

on Wondry+. Now at Joe Fresh, get a free Marvel or Disney backpack or lunch bag when you spend $60 or more on children's apparel while supplies last. Shop smart with one card and check everything off your back to school list all in one place. Conditions apply. See in store or joefresh.com for details. Right then, for all of you who haven't watched this show for a while, immediately, first things first, get back out there and revisit it because it's absolutely hilarious. But here's a reminder, we've got the Rose family who Moira, Catherine O'Hara, her husband, Jonathan, played by Eugene Levy and their two children Alexis played by Annie Murphy and David

Played by Eugene's son Dan Levy. They go from extremely wealthy to broke overnight and they have one asset left They're informed which is this small unsophisticated American town called Schitt's Creek which John Originally bought his son David just as a a joke, because it's like, hey, it sounds like. But that being all they've got left, they're forced to take up residency there in this rundown motel run by one person, this young sort of acerbic lady who works

the desk called Stevie. Moira has to navigate in the blink of an eye a very different landscape to the one that she was used to in her high flying Manhattan socialite lifestyle. This is chalk and cheese. She's an ex soap opera star. So she's well known. But she's in a different stage of life and she's struggling with it and her dramatic personality mixed with her pretty loud fashion sense make her stand out. I mean, all four of them stand out like a sore thumb, don't they?

Wherever they go. So that's the set up. But Nimone, tell us a bit more about your client this week. Ah, client Moira Rose. Wife to business and Jonathan Rose, who of course is CEO to the nation's second largest chain of video rental stores. She's 60 years old.

She did live in total luxury in New York City, in the house that we see in the first episode of them being cleared out. She's a former soap. She did live in total luxury in New York City in the house that we see in the first episode of them being cleared out. She's a former soap actress, as you said, I get the feeling notorious TV show, Sunrise Bay. Well, we find out quite early on, don't we, that her character is famous for slapping people dramatically. Yeah, yeah. So she was flamboyant even on the TV show. Two grown up children, David and Alexis, who I know we've covered on Shrink the Box before,

and she does have a vast wig collection, each of which has a name. And she is only ever seen wearing ultra high fashion. Regardless of the situation. I mean, it's couture. Even in bed. Yeah, there's no flannelette pajamas for Moira. And she does, as you've said, stand out massively in Sleepy Shits Creek. So you've kind of named the elephant in the room, although it's not a massive elephant at all. Moira's

narcissistic traits and overt narcissism are astounding to watch play out. I'm kind of trying to think of another TV character that we've seen who imbues it in quite the way that she does. She is so toddler-like in her tantrums. She hasn't moved out of this, I'm going to call it an omnipotent phase of, you know, toddlers, they feel like the world revolves around them. You know, you're two, you're three, why wouldn't it? And that it should bend to their will.

So they're not separate from their world. They are able to control everything. This is the mind of a toddler. Oh, that's Moira. Everything and everyone is an extension of herself. And when she can't make them do what she wants them to do, she gets very annoyed. Over-dramatically upset is kind of how it looks. But to her, it's life-threatening.

Because that's the kind of realization that the world is not under her control. I found it amazing that that behavior is sometimes enabled or kind of begrudgingly put up with by the three people that she lives with. Moira. Moira. Oh no. I just finally cried myself to sleep. The bed's soaking wet.

Is it blood? No, there's a leak in the ceiling. There's a brown disgusting drip coming. Ow. What the fuck? Yeah, I mean, Jo and her husband is constantly telling their children to look after her like she is a child. You know, like, can you just make sure, oh my God, where is she? Can you make sure she's not like just roaming around in the general public? Which is what you say about a baby or a dog, right? Keep that thing on the lead. So imagine how that affects the relationship with the children because they're not children

to Moira. They are all my siblings. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Absolutely. Or kind of vying for the attention of Johnny. I mean, we heard in that very first clip, didn't we? She like straight up called her daughter a... WHISTLE BLOWS Like, in passing.

I had a moment at that point. In passing. I was like, really, Moira? She has no resilience and she is very childlike. She's very truthful about the kids having to, kids having to learn to live in a different way. But as for them, I don't think she can kind of hear that for herself. For herself, yeah. She can give it.

And do you think she resents the process of parenting? Like what it takes away from what she perceives to be? I'm not even sure she knows what conventional parenting is or that, that what that would look like because these children are extensions of herself. And so there's not an idea of altruism where she might put her needs second. Rub my back. What? No. I rubbed your back many a night when you were little.

Yeah. In exchange for half my allowance. Fine. You may select one silver piece from my accessory case. When we first meet her, in fact, even let's rewind to say maybe a day before we meet her. So like let's say a day before they find out they're going bankrupt, yeah, which we don't see on screen. All these problems are there, right? Do you think she was in a deep depression even before the money, before they lost the mansion? Well, I think the money provided a great screen for Moira to hide behind. So unless there's

adversity, she can live in a state of unreality, which is what happens for a lot of people who are demonstrating the kind of traits that we see Moira demonstrate. It's hard to live in the real world because then you're going to butt up against your real self. And that will be devastating. Really scary thing, isn't it? Like, if you're not happy with yourself, spending time with yourself with no distraction is like terrifying. Will be interesting to see if she could. Absolutely. Is she the most affected out of the four of them in terms of this change?

I think David, as you've probably covered before, is very affected. I think the kids are on Johnny, but no, I think she is from her toddler like behavior of what are you expecting me to live like this in this town? She can't even comprehend it. Where as I get the feeling that the other three characters are kind of getting on with it. Difficult for Moira and possibly because she is this huge narcissist. And this is a word that often, well not often, always gets bandied about. I mean, have you ever spoken to anybody who hasn't said, you know, when you're talking about your family, oh yeah, oh God, you know, I grew up in a house of narcissists, but let's get

to the crux of it. How do we spot someone who might be formally diagnosed as one, not just like, he's a narcissist, you're such a narcissist. Well, we'll come onto that because I think you're right. And I think the media has taken narcissism and narcissist and used it, you know, not sparingly. Some of the behaviors that you'll see in a narcissist prone to kind of exaggerating their sense of own importance and they'll kind of, they'll need consistent adoration and praise.

That means all the time. And if they don't get it, that's problematic for them. I mean, it's nice to be praised and lots of people will feel like, yeah, you know, I kind of like that, but this is all the time. They consider themselves to be better than almost everyone, even if their achievements don't kind of match that. And that's sort of what I mean about living in this unreality. They'll live in that fantasy despite evidence to the contrary. Totally monopolizing lots of conversations, be very judgmental on people

they consider to be less than them or think of as inferior. Exploit people to get what they want and they won't see it as exploitation because they see others as an extension of themselves. So they won't feel like they're manipulative. Because Alex just says things like you, like you. She doesn't want to know your name. She's a stranger. You, you'll do for this thing that I need right now.

And people people just like What? Moira, we'll say yeah She's like mini she's got that mini Moira thing mini Moira like like mom exactly total blindness and no desire to see the needs of feelings of other people because of course that runs contrary to their worldview or it might do they could come across as arrogant and superior and full of themselves pret pretentious and boasting. And I think that's probably where the term has been misused the most, is if someone's really confident. That is definitely problematic because someone with those two traits might be like really annoying and really outgoing and confident, might also have absolutely zero concern of

what you think about them. They don't care how they might come across or what they might look like. They've just got that incredible level of self-confidence. Whereas when I think about Narcissus himself, he was obsessed with his own reflection, wasn't he? Yeah. The first time we see her have a full-on breakdown is after she's been studying her own reflection in theory, because she's, she Googled herself.

Probably not a good idea for a narcissist. It's not a good idea for any of us, but for her, especially problematic. But I mean, give us, can you pick one of them and just sort of expand on them as an example for our listeners, Anthony? And I want to say as well, that it's not, it's a continuum that we're all on. So we might all exhibit narcissistic traits, but it's when you've got a cluster of these and to sort of to the exclusion of all else. So we'll take criticism because I think that's a bit akin to what I was talking about, adoration and praise. Obviously the opposite of that, we're not getting any praise

and you might get criticism. Bursts a bubble for a narcissist. That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. I'm telling mom, telling mom and dad. Have you told them? No, David. So it means that then this reality or unreality they've created for themselves.

Where she pretends that nothing's wrong and then just doesn't talk to me for five months and I don't want that. Well, I need this bed. Might not exist, which, for some of us, might pose a problem. For a narcissist, it feels like life or death. Wow.

OK. I mean, that's a pretty intense way to live your life. Because everything will feel extreme, even the smallest things. Well, that will come onto the drama as well, but that's why Moira exhibits some of the behaviour that she does. And what about narcissists and their children? Well, children are also considered a kind of trophy, or they can live out some of their

fantasies about themselves through their children, which might happen. Any kindness they might exhibit, i.e. towards their children, could be conditional, which is problematic for children because, well, for all of us, because it might lead you to feel beholden to the narcissist. But they can appear really close to young children. And this again is they haven't properly separated from the world in terms of developmentally. So they feel like the world and people in it are an extension of themselves. And they can feel abandoned if a child suddenly kind of exerts their own authority or wants to leave or doesn't want to be connected with this selfish person

who doesn't seem to be showing them any love and affection. I suppose that could also result in a huge attack on the child by the narcissist. Yeah. I mean, I think, I think. How dare you kind of attack. Yeah. I mean, you can imagine the difficulty in navigating that as a child in that there's literally no room for your needs in this relationship. And, you know, as a young child, we are dependent on our parents for our own survival.

So that brings its own kind of, brings its own kind of issues later on. The narcissist, I mean, narcissism can be particularly pernicious because it might look like a narcissist is very pleased with their kids and kind of praising them, but that will be. As a kind of result of their own parenting, That's how they're seeing their children's achievements. Look at what a great job I've done. At the kids' graduation, done amazing on their degree and the narcissistic parent is going, well, obviously they're going to do that. And then the child is obviously subjugating a lot of their personality because the parent's

personality takes centre stage. And that's what we see time and time again with Moira. Maybe they become afraid to express themselves. Although with David and Alexis, they do, on the whole, I think, they give as good as they get. Do we see an older, older, we're seeing older kids there, aren't we? So it'd be interesting to have seen them a little bit younger. And they are the product of living with Moira. In fact, isn't there a scene where John and Moira, in a private moment, are saying, hey, maybe we weren't the greatest parents?

And then John goes, no, no, actually, we definitely were. We sent them to all the best boarding schools, got all the best nannies. We nailed it. Of course. Exactly. Tick on the parenting front. I mean, there were several times when we see just exactly how, I guess, parenting came second. Alexis is looking for her second name to put on a form.

She can't remember it. And she's looking to her parents to supply her with her second name. Can they? They can't remember it. No one can. No one can remember her second name. Can they? They can't remember it. No one can. No one can remember her second name. It's unbelievably funny and unbelievably tragic. It's really.

Moment. So we obviously see it there. There is this back and forth between her and Alexis in particular. And you get this sense of there's a vein, there's a vanity element there as well, because obviously Alexis is young and beautiful, which is how I'm sure Moira would like to still see herself, but clearly doesn't. And a lot of the vitriol and the bitterness

and the resentment of that we see come out in different ways. In general, we see her just sort of forgetting the basics of parenting, when she forgets to pick up Alexis. the next 24 hours. I really appreciate you doing that for me. I'm doing it for us. Well, it's to my benefit. Why don't you guys stay at the cabin for longer? I would never just abandon you two in a motel in the middle of nowhere. Didn't you once take the wrong baby home from preschool? Alexis looked Chinese as an infant. How many times must I defend myself? Actually, I wanted to pick up on what you were saying. Narcissists can often be

in competition with their kids, which of course breeds its own brand of other issues. I mean, bad parenting, is it? To forget, you know, we're all bad parents at one time or another. Sometimes without even knowing it, and can you encourage your children beyond what they're capable of in the interest of thinking, oh, I'm helping this child.

You know, we don't always get it right, but Moira doesn't get it right quite a lot of the time. Yeah, more often than not, I would say. But we can think of it in terms of good enough parenting. Is there enough taking care of the child's needs? Is there enough meeting of what they might, their expectations? And we are never going to get it right as parents. Never.

And quite a lot of times get it wrong, which is also good modeling that you can kind of make mistakes, but- People make mistakes, it's a good lesson. The falling apart or rupture, as we might call it, the important thing is to then go back and see if you can repair it. Yeah.

And then what you might find with a narcissist is- They're not willing. Not capable. Don't even notice it as a rupture. I'm kind of fascinated by Moira in terms of, because I work quite a lot with the body, I'm interested in how in touch she is with her own body. Because I've talked about this sense of unreality. Like, does she have a sense of her body being in the world?

Or is she living completely within the confines of this wardrobe that she has and these wigs that she puts on? Loewen, who's this physician and psychotherapist from the States, Alexander Loewen, wrote about narcissistic patients and said, part of working with them is getting them back in touch with reality, and the way to do that can be through their body, getting them to feel their feelings, getting them to regain a with reality. And the way to do that can be through their body, getting them to feel their feelings, getting to regain a sense of what it fundamentally means to be human.

But it's really difficult to work with narcissists in therapy. Why? Because they don't listen? Get them there. Or they just don't even show up? Well, they wouldn't necessarily. I mean, if you think they're living in a world where largely they're getting a lot of praise and adoration. They're not going to go looking for criticism and they may even dissociate from anything that feels like criticism, i.e. sort of distance themselves from it.

How are they going to end up at a therapist's door? Yeah, that's a good point. Why would they even think there was something wrong with them? They won't. When they consider that they are the king or queen or the star of their own movie. I tell you what, there's a brilliant book actually called Motherwell. This is the Deborah Orr book. So Motherwell is where she grew up, but obviously the title is about living with a narcissistic mother as well.

And she writes, I'm narcissistic myself, of course, far more than my parents were. All writers have some narcissism in them. Narcissism exists on a spectrum, says Deborah Orr, and we all need some to get us up in the morning and brushing our teeth. We all need some narcissism so we can protect ourselves in a scary world and put on a face to meet the other faces that we meet. So this is, I think, what I was, and it's great stuff from Deborah Orr, brilliant journalist. So this is the thing that I think I was hinting at earlier in the show.

Are we not all a bit narcissistic? We're somewhere on this sliding scale, as Rourke puts it. It's not, are you one or not? It's a continuum. That's to say that all of us will have a narcissistic wound. Some of us will have narcissistic traits. But when it takes over and forms the basis of a person's way of being in the world to the exclusion of all else, it might warrant a more deeper kind of, yeah, exactly. I mean, they can be compelling narcissists

and some of the biggest, I mean, she says biggest baddest in the world have been narcissists, warmongers, dictators, fascists, cult leaders. We don't need to look very far for some of them. Look inside the mind of any ruthless person and you'll find narcissism in the mix. Clinically, we can think of someone who tends towards narcissism also having feelings of humiliation and that defense against humiliation has kind of, through that they've developed this sort of omnipotent delusion of who they are and what might be happening in the world. So it's kind of an avoidance of that. And they can't register. I mean, we should, I don't think we can talk about this

without mentioning the narcissistic wound. The narcissist in all of us, because that wound is different. That can be a consequence. Like you alluded to, a growing up in environment or a household where there wasn't much room for you. Now we've kind of said that

was probably very little room for David and Alexis with growing up with Moira. But as you said, there's often an idea of not as a youngest child, not feeling like there was enough room or that people take paying attention to you versus Sadie or, you know, that kind of feeling or you're growing up in a household where there's trauma, or there might be illness. And all of that will mean that some of your needs were pushed to the side and will result in a narcissistic wound. And that's different to when you've grown up with a narcissistic parent or the narcissistic tendencies you may experience as feeling an extension of them. There's lots in there, isn't there? That kind of, I guess, connect us to the idea

of narcissism without being at the level of Moira. Moira is in a different category which is why I wanted to make a distinction between narcissistic wound and the continuum and the way that the media uses the idea of a narcissist now. We all kind of bandy the word around and then an actual somebody we might call narcissist, different again to somebody with a personality disorder that might be considered to have narcissism attached to it. And that's why this Deborah Orr is so relevant to Moira because she says there's a narcissistic child inside all of us. In Moira's case, the child that we speak of here is running the whole show. We'll take a little break and afterwards we'll hear about how narcissism has formed some of

Moira's other personality traits, how she outdramad a drama class, and let's find out, once and for all, what the hell these wigs are about. So, yeah, we'll see you after the ads unless you're a subscriber to the take, in which case you'll just hear back from us in literally seconds. No time will pass, this will just seem weird. Are you the friend who can recognize anime themes sampled by J. Cole, MF Doom, and The Weeknd? Don't worry, I'm Lea Alec-Murray, and I'm also that person. I'm Nick Friedman. And I'm Lea President, and we invite you to take your sonic knowledge to the next level

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I was so damn bad for the middle of Miranda when I was like eight. You can listen to Dinners on Me wherever you get your podcasts. And we are back with Ben Bailey-Smith's Drink the Box. Yes, it's me, Ben Bailey-Smith. Ben Bailey-Smith. And we're talking about narcissism. Yeah. Funny that, hey, Ben Bailey-Smith. Center of the universe. TV's, TV's, BBS, as I'm also known. We're talking about narcissism a lot. We have been, we have been talking about narcissistic wounds and narcissism. And how, let's look then, how Moira's narcissism feeds into the rest of her behavior.

Oh, the high drama. The squealing, the constant drama over seemingly small things. Ah! Oh my God, no! No! No! What? My earrings, they were there. They're not there! Where did they go? I don't know! I don't know first.

You threatened to abandon me, and now my precious diamonds are gone! Kate, you are being super dramatic right now. Shut up and look for them! Ah! Ah! Ah! Ah! Ah!

Ah! Ah! Ah! Ah! Ah! Ah! Ah! Ah! Ah! Ah! Ah! Ah!

Ah! Ah! Ah! Ah! Ah! Ah! Ah! Ah!

Ah! Ah! Ah! Ah! Ah! Ah! Ah! Ah! Ah! Why does she freak out at that level so quickly? We have to go back to her background as being the actress and star of the soap that we hear little snippets of throughout the first series. She's hugely theatrical always Moira. So it feels like she might not be playing a character in a soap when she was acting.

That is Moira and she just carries it on in everyday life. It feels like it enables her to keep everyone at a safe distance. So that kind of almost being on stage means your audience are inevitably at a distance from you, which also maintains her as the star of her show. And you can't be approached. Physically, you cannot be approached. Someone's screaming and flailing arms. As you've described that, think of toddler lying on the floor, beating fists again, you'd kind of go, oh, okay. Kind of appease.

I mean, you might walk away as a parent. You might do, yeah. The walk away. I think relationally, it feels like another defense for her, defense mechanism by taking, kind of taking to the stage in every scene that she's in in real life. It feels like she can kind of maintain that part and this and this fantasy of the Moira show. And just like a kid, the dramatic can spill over into the downright route.

Kids often say what they see, don't they? They have no filter because they haven't kind of got one yet, really. I mean, from society, our filters come from what we've said in the past and then have realized, oh, that garners that result. Perhaps I won't say it quite like that. Absolutely. You need experience. It reminds me of my friend, a comic, Dan Antopolski, who had, who was with his kids on the tube. They were very little. Oh, I went to school with Dan.

Do you know? I was in a band with Dan. Oh, he's a lovely man. Yeah, he's brilliant. His little kids on the tube and you know how it is on the tube. People keep their voices down, especially when it's quiet. There's an etiquette. Yeah. But kids don't know that.

So the station stops. One of them's like, Daddy, will you sing the song about the brown man and the yellow man? I'm sure I don't know such a song. I don't know what you're talking about. Yes, you do. It's the one we always sing. You always sing it to us about the brown man and the yellow man. We tried to get more details out of them while people are staring at them. And then realized they were talking about Bert and Ernie from Sesame Street.

That, it's that, isn't it? It's that you're filtering your critical voices, the way in which our way of being in the world is shaped by those experiences. And as a child, you kind of learn. And that is part of a development through younger age to older that sometimes is stalled, sometimes doesn't happen. Arrested development. And then Moira was kind of stuck around toddlerism. Just stuck. And again, we can only speculate what the hell was going on in her house. And so yeah, she can just

suddenly just like a kid with no filter, be unbelievably rude. One of my favorite episodes season one is where Jocelyn, maybe not even noticing Jocelyn, the mayor's wife taps into Moira's narcissism perfectly by saying, Hey, you're an amazing actor. Why don't you come and speak to the kids at my school? And she's a teacher. And you can just see, Moira's having a terrible day and you can just see her come alive.

And she's like, to praise the adulation. Perfect, I'll get down there and be I'm wanted. The Moira Rose, rather than this Moira Rose, which I hate. You must prepare for life and whatever it will throw at you, the opportunities will diminish and the ass will get bigger.

Oh, you can bet your bottom dollar it will, especially yours. You're going to have a huge ass. And you, future Baldi. Sorry, hairless homeless. So what? Who cares? When they get mean, you tell them to go to hell because only you know who you are. And those cruel internet people cannot take that away from you.

You will forge on, and you will find some glimmer of something to hold on to. And only then will you find your way back. Only then will you become once again who you are. I mean, this speech is delivered to these children. They're primary school children, aren't they? Sort of year six, I reckon. Yeah, or like the first year of secondary school.

Very young. But it's not for them. She is clearly... It morphs into her talking about herself. Absolutely. She can only refer to things through her own prism, the lens of Moira, no other perspective at all. And she does stand out. I mean, as you say, Jocelyn, quite rightly, and I think it was sort of an act of, oh, I can see you having a bad day. Come and,

you know, come and see what you can give these kids. But you can see Jocelyn becoming more and more uncomfortable as this drama class ensues with her wondering who the hell she's invited to speak. Yeah. And again, at first Moira is briefly on the money. She starts with a great point. It's why are you talking about drugs? None of these kids use drugs. You've never used drugs. Like talk about what you know. Yeah. And it's a very salient point. Then she obviously turns it rude by saying to Jocelyn, she should write about being in a loveless marriage, married to a disgusting or whatever she says. But technically she's 100% spot on. She's on the money.

And then of course. But for Moira again, it's an audience. True. So that's tinged with, yeah. And it doesn't strike me that she'll have a sense of that being, oh my God, what's happening to me in front of these people? It's like, I am performing. She's ready to add a contrivance even to her own breakdown. Of course. Which is why it's hard for her to end up in something like therapy. Because she'll be acting. She'd probably find a way to be in competition with a therapist, or she's gonna want to be

the best possible client ever, which again gets in the way of a real relationship, because then it's an act. Do you ever get that, like, you're listening to your client, you think this is a performance, I'm looking forward to when they get real with me. I think at the beginning, as you've pointed out, it's all going to be the story that people are very used to telling.

Yeah. Which of course is a way of feeling safe. This is my narrative, this is how I'm going to tell somebody what's happening to me. And of course, that is totally what's necessary in the first instance because you want a working alliance with someone. So I love the sound of my voice so much that often in therapy, I would start telling a story or my story, and then I'd find myself instinctively

trying to make it funny in places. You know? But that's the defense. Trying to get the therapist to laugh along. Yeah. But what would that, how would that make you feel if they laughed? Like an achievement. And what would that, how would that make you feel if they laughed? Like an achievement.

And what? Okay. This, this person, I definitely wanted all my therapists to love me. It's really important with whatever job you do, you know, this is the gift and the curse of doing what you love. I suppose if you do what you love, it's amazing. We all want to do that. Now me and Moira, we'd be the kind of people who we love our job,

but when it gets to that point where we become chopped liver, how the f*** do we deal with that? So you've just reminded me of something. Moira, when that day comes, sorry, when that day comes, I think that's disaster. Well, I think you've hit on something really important that we haven't mentioned with narcissism. And the psychotherapist I mentioned before, Lowen, writes about it. His book was Narcissism on something really important that we haven't mentioned with narcissism. The psychotherapist I mentioned before, Lowen, writes about it. His book was Narcissism, Denial of the True Self. So if we've created something to cover what we perceive to be an inadequate self, then we're going to be looking for the adoration in those places.

Because the messages we would have received potentially, and sometimes will be, you're not enough, or you're not good enough, or you're not as good as me. So therefore, what do I have to be to get attention? What do I have to do to be lovable to? So thinking back to what I was saying before about this crunch time moment, this watershed moment where your life is based around performance, your professional life is based around performance. This watershed moment where it's like, you're done, you know? People don't want to see you anymore. You're out of fashion. And that's why I think we need to give a decent chunk of time to these

wigs. Hair is a big deal. Hair is a massive deal. I mean, I can't remember who I was listening to on another pod, but it was an older American actor who'd gone bald and he was talking about hair and he said, you know what? I had it when I needed it. Very good. And I thought, what a great line. It really acknowledges the importance of it in this, sort of facile world of show business.

At a certain stage in life. I mean, Ben, you've just opened up so many Pandora's boxes, I'm not quite sure where to start because obviously there's the idea of... Well, where'd you get yours made? And... Let's start with that. What, you think mine's not real? You have a beautiful head of hair, of course.

So the wigs, I mean, there are hundreds of them. Doesn't Johnny say at one point there's a spreadsheet of the wigs for Moira? I don't remember that. That's very funny. Catherine O'Hara said that there's a list of names. Each has a name, right? Exactly. I mean, I think this might be familiar to listeners of Shrink the Box. We've talked about transitional objects before, but we see her obsession with wigs, Kristen, Robin, I think there's even one

called Johnny, and clothes, and they could be seen as transitional objects. My very soul has been kidnapped. There's no ransom. No one's coming to save me. We've got 15 minutes to collect our personal's. Can we pick up the pace? No. No, did you put Kristen with Rob and they don't like each other! No! And she's safe and on familiar ground when she has her wigs on. So you're right in a sense that that allows her to maintain an era of her life or a look that will feel really comfortable in an environment, especially Schitt's Creek, which is really

unfamiliar and scary. Did you have a transitional object? Did you have a blankie or a toy? I called it Linus. You had Linus? Yeah, I had a little, it was a pillowcase. Oh, brilliant. Yeah, early 80s, definitely had a pillowcase,

called it Linus, because Linus had the blanket. Yeah, exactly, I was gonna say, very Snoopy of you. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I used to like folding it. I I love it. Basically get my mum to, you know, Christine. wash it and then press it. Yeah.

And then I get it while it was still hot and a bit starchy. I'm not sure this counts, but mum found me chatting away to myself, probably a similar age to Damien, my imaginary friend. Not a good name. I mean, imaginary friend. Not in that era. Horr friend. Not in that era. Horrifying. Not in that era. The Omen was what, 82?

Yeah, exactly. So much like a child with their toy or blanket or imaginary friend, there's a layer of safety in an unfamiliar world and it provides a connection back to mummy or primary caregiver or daddy or their secure base. So your pillow would have been, obviously mom had ironed it. And that was a special relationship that you have with mom or kind of idea that she would take care of this blanket and then she'd pass it to you. And for Moira, her secure base was her high life in New York.

And the layers to her safety blanket and her transitional objects are multifarious. There's a psychoanalyst called Donald Winnicott who wrote about good enough parenting, but also wrote about infants and their relationship with their environment. And he identified separation from their primary caregiver as a key developmental stage.

So obviously that idea of separation anxiety comes from there as well. And there are stages of this of absolute dependence, relative dependence, and then move towards independence. And the transitional objects are kind of intertwined with that phase. Using that object, a child can begin to bear being away from a primary caregiver, their mom, dad, grandparent. They still have a semblance of connection through these objects. The toy still has a kind of representation, but they can bear for mom and dad to leave the room

because the toy's there, which means that it's sort of imbued with a feeling of parent secure base. And then the little one starts to relate differently to their caregivers. It becomes less scary that mom and dad might not be there or might leave for a period of time. And they start to become okay with being completely independent and understanding that their parent is independent from them. And then we're back sort of in that object-subject relating that we spoke about in a previous episode with Frasier. That kind of third or the space that exists in between. And Winnicott talks about that as an intermediate area of experiencing. So the child is kind of beginning to notice inner me and outer me with a transitional

object or toy. And actually Winnicott talked about this area as being really creative space. So we can see with Moira, there's an idea that she could be quite creative within this space with her wigs and her hair. There's an idea of still being creative. Right. There is this little sort of passed down thing, a hand-me-down thing with the transitional objects, isn't there? Because David, it's quite clever, isn't it? The way they've done it. His clothes are really important to him, aren't they? But he also dresses in monochrome, black or white or black and white, just like his mom. And there's something a bit more tactile between them as well than

there is with her and Alexis. He makes a show of it being gross, but he does rub her back when she asks. Yeah. There's definitely a different connection with her son than her daughter. And this might come back to what we were talking about earlier in terms of some idea of competition. Yeah. Alex is beautiful, younger, mini Moira. Yeah. Sickening.

Sickening. Out. What question do you think you might ask her? If you did manage to get her in front of you, fully focused, it's the two of you in a room, no distractions. What do you think you'd ask her? What brought you here? What's going on? Did you have to get a level of understanding of where she's at? I might start with something like that. I don't know how to depend on the day, Ben. That's really nice asking.

Yeah, for sure. Where would you start? And, you know, taking that sort of imaginary session further, you've worked with her for a year now. You've made some inroads. There's been a couple of steps back. There's been some outbursts. There will undoubtedly be outbursts. Oh, this isn't a year, this is long term. But as we're getting into that long term relationship between you and her, are you of the opinion throughout that she can change? Can a narcissist of that level ever change? I think it'd be interesting to look at the idea of changing

because I'd be more thinking about bringing awareness to the effect and impact of her behavior on herself and the outside world. And then that's a decision for the person who's in it. Do I have the impetus? Do I want a different way of being in the world? Or am I quite happy with how things are? And it'd be interesting whether Moira would have quite happy with how things are. And it'd be interesting whether Moira would have the ability to mentalize her own behavior and that of other people to have enough insight to see the picture that has been painted or the idea or that video and go, Oh, yeah, perhaps I shouldn't do that.

Cause I'm not sure at this stage whether she'd actually go, what's wrong with that? Yeah, exactly. So just, just the word change is probably not, it doesn't really encompass the, the, the sort of the levels, the details that Well, it will be terrifying or feel life threatening to a narcissist to be any other way in the world. So the room for change is quite small. They're pretty sure they've already nailed it.

They've nailed life. Of course. Yeah. Huh. Nimone, let our lovely listeners know who will be your client next week. I cannot believe we haven't covered this show yet. It is so well-loved.

Very, very funny. Captain Holt eating a marshmallow for the very first time. What is this glutinous monstrosity before me? The sugar in this is quite sweet. Ooooo! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! That's your Halt impression?

I can hear him doing that. Looks like a sticky pillow. I don't care for it. Classical music. What's going on here? What are you doing? Captain, hey, nothing, just eating some marshmallows. Care for one? Marsh-tah Marshmallow. I knew it! Brooklyn Nine-Nine.

It is. And we're looking at Captain Halt. You did. You turned me on to this. And I have to say, it's a welcome addition to the vast TV collection. I'm amassing. It makes the world about a place. Oh, it's full of smiles.

Miss Fitness is, I suppose, is what's at the forefront of the show. And we'll be thinking about difference, intersectionality that's to do with race and gender and sexuality, but also thoughts about perhaps him presenting as neurodiverse and what that might be like. Marshmallows on me.

We would be thrilled if you could follow us on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music or wherever you get your pod to get new apps. And if you do like it, please share us as much as you can so we can make some more. Yeah. We're kind of enjoying doing it, aren't we then? Oh man, I love it man. And if you want the same show but without the ads, you want to be a shrinker. Of course you do. You can subscribe to Extra Takes, get the ad free episodes from Kermode and Mayo's Take as well,

and their weekly bonus episodes, and you can start your free trial now if you want by clicking try free at the top of the shrink the box show page on Apple podcasts or by visiting extratakes.com. And we want to say thank you to our production team as ever, production management, Lee Hambly, the assistant producer with Scarlett O'Malley, studio and mix engineer, Gulliver Tickle.

The producer is Jeremy Newmark-Jones, the senior producer, Selina Ream, and executive producer, Simon Paul. Let's go our separate ways until next time, Amo. See you then. Ta-da.