Killing Dad: The Crystal Howell Story - S2 Ep10: The Miscreants Bonus Episode

Episode Date: September 19, 2023

LAPD officer Mike Oreb spent several hours dodging the aim of a gun laser as Duc was looking for a clear shot. Oreb was 20 feet from Alvaro and Duc during the standoff in the hall of records building in downtown Los Angeles where they held a young security guard hostage. Oreb heard and saw everything. He relives the heart stopping rare moment in police history. 

Welcome to this bonus episode of Killing Dad Season 2, The Miscreants. I'm Melissa McCarty. We hope you enjoyed the eight-part series of a case that is crazier than fiction, a story in the shadows until now. Now, I have a special guest joining me today. I'm really excited about his story's remarkable. You don't want to miss this one. With older cases such as this, it can be pretty difficult to track down some of the key

players who actually live through it But with the help of some friends at the LAPD I found our guest his name is Mike Orb. He's currently a deputy Dief. Excuse me. He's currently a deputy chief with the LAPD Thank you so much, Mike for joining me Good morning Really happy to have this conversation. Now Kelly McLear, my partner in crime here, she wishes she could be a part of this special episode, but she's also running CrimeCon.

And this year, there's about 7,000 attendees. So she's tied up with the CrimeCon event. But I have you all to myself, and I want to start off by setting up where Mike Orb comes into play. Now I want all of you since you just finished the series or you're binging it now. Think back to when Alvaro and Duck were on the freeway trying to evade officers in pursuit after they robbed a newspaper delivery guy up north for cash and his truck. They were being tailed by multiple patrol cars when a gas tanker truck was passing by

and they recalled a scene from their favorite movie, The Terminator. They mimic it by shooting up the tanker truck, hoping it would explode and take out all tailing cop cars. But of course, it's just a movie. It's not real life. It doesn't go down like that. Here, during this time, here enters Mike Orm. Mike, tell us what your title was back in 1994

when you were working with the LAPD and this call came in. So during that time, I was a police officer three field training officer assigned a central patrol. And, you know, that day began like many other days. You know, we attended roll call, you know, loaded up our car with our equipment, began patrolling and by partner and I, shortly after roll call, monitored a radio broadcast of a pursuit involving homicide suspects, involving CHP and Kern County. The call indicated that there was a running gun battle where suspect were actively engaged in shooting at officers and other members of the freeway. Now how many years did you have on the job?

And was this technically your first shootout experience that you were witnessing? So, I would say that during this time, I had about seven years on the department and worked a variety of different assignments, but at this time, you know, I was a control officer, you know, have I witnessed the running gun dot-old? No, I have not. That would have been definitely my first. And what goes through one's mind when you're witnessing something like that? I mean, besides not

getting hit by a flying stray bullet, you know, what was going through your mind and what were you trying to do at that point? So I'll tell you, we've heard the radio broadcast, you know, my partner and I, you know, knowing that during that time, the traffic is pretty bad. Knowing that you're not a lot,

there's not a lot of room to maneuver. You know, during in those three ways that we thought that there was a highly high likelihood that they would have ended up in the downtown area. So my partner and I started moving in that direction. We were on Broadway moving northbound. And my recollection is that, you know that we were continually asking for updates, you know, where the suspects are, where the pursuit is. And, you know, we weren't getting the updates as quickly as we wanted. So we were on North Broadway, you know, approaching college

when the pursuit turns the corner and is facing us. And I remember right away seeing the Tuskegeeck car, the windshield blown out. We see some of the other cars involving the CHP or Kern County, their windshields were blown out. We see shots fired. We actually see the, you know, you can see the across the smoke coming out of weapons and impacts to the cars. So yeah, I was quite the

wild scene. And chilling when you describe it because those bullets are whizzing by those officers in the cars in pursuit and any one of them could have been struck, and thankfully they weren't at this point. How did you end up explaining the Hall of Records in downtown Los Angeles? How many floors is it? Where they ended up and where you eventually ended up? So yeah, the Hall of Records is a multi-story building,

housing the county records, I think, at the time. And it was over there on Temple and Broadway, I believe. So ultimately, what happened was, I received a call from the incident commander who was my lieutenant at the time, his name was Lieutenant Taylor, and contacted us and asked my partner and I'd respond to the command post.

So we go down to the command post and moving through the intersection, we saw the aftermath of a traffic collision and involving the suspect vehicle. I remember seeing empty magazines on the ground from, it looked like it was most likely from other officers. We observed casings, rough casings on the floor and then I remember seeing that the windows had been shot out

of hollow records with numerous bullet impacts at the front of the location. And these were massive tall windows that were talking about being blown out. So that gives you an idea of the sheer force and how many bullets were blazing from both sides there. And now so we know that Avarro during that running gun was wounded. He was shot in the leg.

Where did he end up? And where were you told to station and position yourselves? So he's wounded. Avarro is shot. And there's a female unarmed security guard Veronica that was working that day that they ended up taking hostage. So what were your visuals when you were in

place? So being briefed by the watch commander, the watch commander indicated that there were two homicide suspects that were wanted from up north. I remember him saying Kern County and that they had been involved in the shooting

in the intersection and the windows were broken out. And in the process, they took a security guard hostage and they were secreted on the ground level inside a kind of like a little cold area that was off to the side and that's where they were holding the hostage at gunpoint. How did you size up, well, let me take a step back. What were your orders at the time

and where were you told to go at that point? So the incident commander advised me in my partner, he goes, hey, grabs the ammunition, grab a shotgun, he goes, I need you on the high ground. I'm going to put you right above the suspect, you'll be on top of the escalator, and your position is to hold that spot, he goes in, he goes, don't let him out of the building.

He goes, if they get out of the building, he goes they have their run of that building and he goes, it's going to be very dangerous for everybody. So he goes, I need you to hold your position there and hold your ground. Okay. So you were actually inside the building with them or? Yes, I was. Okay. How did you get to that high ground inside the building without being shot? Like how? How? Because they ran in through the ground level. Was there a different way to enter the building? Yeah, there was there is a other entrance towards the rear. And that's where we were brought into the rear and ultimately, you know, brought in and we posted up on the floor right above them above the where the escalator was. Okay, so you had a shotgun. Did that have a, I'm not that familiar, but did it have a scope?

A lens to look through or was it just visually they were close enough to you? So during that time, I think when I looked back, you know, we didn't have a lot of specialized equipment for patrol. So it was just, you know, the issue, the effect of shotgun and that's pretty much what we had. That was our patrol's best weapon at the time. And what were they working with? What did they have? I do remember dating. I recall them having a long rifle. I don't know what kind it was.

They only saw that briefly. But I did see later on a suspect. One of them had a handgun with a laser on it. Yeah, and that was the laser that they stole from the T&L gun store. Another run and gun battle in the streets of Reno, broad daylight for that silencer and the laser scope that they ended up getting away with. This episode of Killing Dad, season two, the Miss Koreans, is sponsored by Better Help. Do you ever find that you're just trying to fall asleep? In your brain suddenly won't stop talking. I used to get racing thoughts so bad.

I tried sleeping pills over the counter, prescription, even wine before bed. Nothing worked. And it was starting to affect me at work. And it turns out a great way to make those racing thoughts go away is to talk them through. Therapy gives you a place to do just that and you can get all of those anxious or negative thought cycles out and find some relief mentally and emotionally. There's this sense sometimes that therapy is just only for people who have experienced major trauma but it's really an opportunity to get in touch with the best version of yourself while learning positive coping skills and how to set

boundaries for yourself. So if you're thinking of starting therapy, give better help a try. It's entirely online, designed to be convenient, flexible and suited to your schedule. Just fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a license therapist and switch therapist any time for no additional charge. Get a break from your thoughts with better help. Visit betterhelp.com slash killing dad today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp.helke.com slash killing dad. So how would you describe how many feet or how close you were, you could hear them, you

could see them, what was the distance and what took place after that? So I, you know, one floor, so it could have been maybe 25 feet. And so we were positioned right above the two suspects and the hostage. And they had themselves secreted, would have been looking down at my right. And there was an area that was kind of out of sight from there. I think there were doors that kept them

from moving through the rest of the building. So they were kind of pinned in there and they couldn't go anywhere as well. So the only way would have been through the doors where they came in or through where I was positioned. That would have been their only way out of building. So you knew they were murder suspects. You had no idea what occurred in Reno House how savage and in the crime spray that led them all the way to the Hall of Records. What, how did you size up Elvaro and Duck when you're just looking at them with the hostage, you know, with their weapons? How did you

size up their mannerisms, their behaviors, and how much of a threat they were to you and how you behaviors and how much of a threat they were to you and how you make decisions based on that. Yeah, so the initial observations of that running gun battle with current county and CHP really painted the picture for me on how violent they were. So by part of our by partner I knew we were in for it, we knew that we were gonna have a very difficult time with these two individuals, and then they didn't let us down. I'll say that during the evening that we were with them. So you could hear them, that they saw you, I mean, in the line of sight the entire time, and you could hear them, what were they,

I know it's 1994, but something like this has got to be traumatizing and something you'll never forget because I'm sure you've never lived through anything like this again. But what stands out in the conversations was are screaming, yelling, sobbing, just take us through everything you heard and saw the dynamic of that situation. Yeah, so we were there for several hours. Again, they were positioned a little bit away from us. One of the suspects, I know they tried to communicate through the hostage many times. They would tell her something and then she would repeat it to us us and then other times that you would start yelling at my partner and I but you know pretty much the the the story was or their request was you

know we want money you know you know we're demanding we're demanding money right now if you don't give us money, we're gonna kill this hostage. We're gonna kill this lady. And then, so she was saying they're gonna kill me. They're gonna kill me if they don't get the money. But then he would also come in and one of the suspects would periodically say, I'm gonna kill you, meaning my partner and myself.

We're gonna kill her, meaning the hostage. So there was constant, you know, communication between us and the suspect. And I know that they were also trying to talk to the crisis negotiator at the same time. How is for young Veronica, single mom at the time? What was her, Dim Miner? How is she handling that from what you could see? Yes, she was hysterical. No question about it. Probably, you know, both traumatizing things she could ever face is, you know, having a gun, you know, placed through her head the entire time and

having individuals saying that they're going to kill her or kill the police. So, you know, she, she was in a really, really bad spot. There's no question about it. And so my thoughts, you know, my communication with my partners, you know, we knew that everything that we did had to be very, very critically done, meaning that if we miss that, we knew that they were going to kill the hostage. So that was the constant conversation with us. And our observations were that we had a conversation, if we hear a gun shot, we are going to have to go down, so that's the only chance we have of saving her. So these were the conversations we were having,

but we said also that we're not gonna go down there, we're not gonna go down there unless we absolutely have to and we're not gonna fire around unless we absolutely have to because we knew that what that was gonna trigger. It was gonna trigger that exchange of gunfire and it was not gonna have a good outcome. So visually they're surrounded and they're blocked in. So they can walk a few feet, look up at you, say something, and then walk out of your gun's

line of sight. It wasn't even that. It wasn't even that. I mean, there was no room for them at all. So there's only a couple feet to the side. So what this one, the one truck that did, he would lay down on his back and he would kind of just put his hand around with the gun and have his gun around the corner and and looking at us, trying to paint us with his laser. So he did that several times throughout the evening where he was trying to see if he can get a shot off at us. You know, that alone, I will tell you that that alone,

when he painted us with the laser and we saw that hang on, you know, legally, you know, we could have protected our lives at that point. But we were so concerned that, you know, they were going to kill this hostage, if we did that, our cover afforded us the opportunity to wait. And we did this by verbalizing saying, you know what, you don't want to do that, you know, put the gun away, you don't want to do this, this is going to be, you know, is going to end up badly. So, so we continue to verbalize ourselves. But yeah, it was, you know, you know, you know, he threatened to kill us, you know, many times throughout the night. But he threatened, but then when you actually saw that laser on you, you know, what's that feel like and how do you have the mental and emotional

control to not fire? I mean, he's already a killer. I mean, how do you, how did you restrain? And your partner, you had to also recede, you know, it's not just you, if he fires, you both have to be on the same page. How did you, what was going through your mind mentally to tell yourself, where you're breathing through it? I mean, I know it's like, how do you get into that Zen Zone when you have a laser on you? Yeah. Wilk, you know, we did was we limited the exposure of our bodies to gunfire. So he didn't have a clear shot at it at either time.

You know, we saw the laser creeping up the walls, the side walls, near us. But he never really would have had a clean shot. He could have got shots off and made some attempts. But he really never had a clear shot. We never exposed ourselves tremendously to that. So when we would kind of keep our eye out there to watch the spot if we saw him, you know, moving that weapon around, then we would move off to the side where we had complete cover. So, you know, our goal was not to, you know, give him anything, but, you know,

again, our primary concern was the safety of the hostage. And I will tell you very easily, it could have been, you know, other people would have handled it differently, you know, and there was a high likelihood that somebody else may have returned fire on him and would have been legally justified to do so. I said, but, you know, my partner and I are tactics, you know, we were, we were very good at what we did. And that afforded us the opportunity

to give some more time to try to work this out in a peaceful way. The DS, the Lation tactics, that was our primary concern, but I'll tell you there were several times that, you know, my finger turned to safety off and my finger was on the trigger ready, ready to deploy around. There was no question about that, but luckily we didn't have to, and they were able to reset and reset ourselves. So it was, it was that kind of night. Where was Veronica in those moments when the potential gunfire could have been exchanged. Would was Veronica in the vicinity to have been struck? Well, she was off to the side. You know, they kept her out of the side. They kept her not dismal to us. So she was secreted as well with one of the other suspects. So, you know, and I only seen one of the suspects

the entire time. So yeah, they remained hidden off to the side. I saw the one individual that would sneak on his back and try to, try to penis with his laser. That was our encounter. But our concern was, as soon as they used her as a shield and put a gun to her head, that was what our big concern was, as soon as they used her as a shield and put a gun to her head,

that was what our big concern was at that time. So that was the duck because Elvara was shot and he did spend most of the time with Veronica and she told me at one point she tried to aid his wound and he wanted to give up, he was in pain. He wanted to quit. You overheard some conversations. I don't know if you saw it as well, but the two brother-in-law, it was, you know, Maria was the woman that they both loved. One was the brother of Varro. One was the husband Duck, who they had a baby boy with. So, husband, brother, they went on this crime spray,

they ended up turning on each other a few times is what Veronica told me off the record because as you said, she's forever traumatized by this incident. What did you hear in those moments? We would hear yelling, not discernible exactly what they were saying, but we did hear a lot of yelling going back and forth down there. So we kind of had some indications that they were not getting along, that they were maybe divided on what they were trying to accomplish,

but, you know, still, regardless of either one of them, I knew that one of them was truly a problem. And that was one of my main focuses that despite what was going on between the two, you know, the one individual was really focused on, you know, on violence. And, you know, what I saw from him, I thought he was going to engage in a gun fight at any time during that time we were there.

Well, that was his plan is to go out guns blazing if they didn't get the negotiated request, which I mean, it's something again, you'd see out of the movie, the prosecutor told me they asked for a million bucks and a pizza. Do you remember any of that or hearing any of that? Yeah, I remember hearing that over the radio that they were working on that, working on bringing in an armor car and working that.

And you know, several hours later, we were relieved by SWAT. SWAT came in and took our positions. And you know, we were relieved by swatts, swatts came in and took our positions. And, you know, we were debriefed and told them everything. We saw type of weapons. We saw the engagement we had. And then, you know, I think it was our robbery homicide was asking us as well.

You know, okay, tell us what happened. And, you know, you know, that's when they kind of indicated you know, how many times it'd be threatened to kill you and how many times they'd be pointing gun at you and I call them I love count Badlands is an anthology series that blends history and true crime to tell the transgressive stories of some of the biggest names in Hollywood This is not the Hollywood history you've heard before these are uncensored immersive edge of your seat storytelling censored, immersive edge of your seat storytelling. Host Jake Brennan, creator and host of the award-winning music

and true crime podcast, Disgrace Land, explores the most insane stories surrounding the world's most interesting Hollywood icons. Now, Badlands has covered many actors, directors, and more, including the mysterious deaths of Marilyn Monroe in Natalie Wood. Tim Allen's former career as a low-level drug dealer and the curse of the movie Poltergeist, also Halporn star John Holmes, got caught up in the infamous Wonderland murders, and so so many more. New episodes of Badlands

are released every Wednesday with bonus episodes released every Friday. Subscribe to Badlands on Apple podcasts, Spotify, the iHeart, Radio app, Amazon Music, and wherever you get your podcasts. Were they ever considering the armored truck full of money to be delivered? Or was that just uh, applauded just by some time? No, I was under the impression that they were they were working on getting an armored car or they had an armored car and they were bringing it in, but I don't recall seeing it. Do you remember what you were saying when he was like, I'm going to kill you, I'm going to kill you? Do you remember, you know, what did you keep repeating one thing or did you stay silent or did you want him talking? Well, I would tell him, you know, I remember my conversation was that, you know, you need that you need to give up. I said, you're not getting out of this building, you're, you need to give up.

And, you know, those were the conversations that we have, you know, pretty clear. those were the conversations that we had, you know, pretty clear. I didn't want him to think he was going to have the advantage over us or intimidate us because, you know, our command presence, we were right on the money with it, you know, indicating you're not leaving the building. You know, put the gun down, give up, let it, let's get everybody home. And so we did our best. But yeah, it was probably one of the most intense times I had as a police officer. Yeah, it's I think like Chao, who you know, with the LAPD, he said, and I'm going to paraphrase it wrong, but he just said, you know, you train your whole career and eventually it comes down to mere seconds of chaos and violence after career of training.

When you were walking away, relieved by SWAT, did you want to walk away and how did you shake that off as you were driving away? Yeah, so yeah, I think you reflect later on, you don't really pay attention at the time, you're just trying to get through the incident itself. But yeah, reflecting on it, we all came out of this, we were very fortunate to come out of this unharmed. And I was very surprised that we were able to get out of that without engaging. And I got in fight with these two just from my encounter with him,

with him pointing a weapon at us with, you know, just incredible. And again, I think that had we done anything wrong, it would have had a different outcome. I think it would have had a much worse outcome. So just by having to discipline and utilizing the best tactics we could at the time, I think that that's why we had the outcome that we had. And obviously, SWAT came in and there, CNT, and that just continued the work that we started. And I'm very grateful. And I think everything despite the violence that was occurring up to that point,

it had a great outcome for that night. They ended up surrendering and walking out with Veronica. When you before you transitioned with SWAT, did you advise them, you know, hey, you know, don't engage, that's our approach. And I think you should stick with this because it, you know, they could have taken over and guns blazing. How did you get on the same page? Well, I, and we just, you know, we had just pulled them everything that we had gone through. But, you know, I think that, you know, you can't really tell, you know I think that you know you can't really tell you know another

officer how to do it. I know that spot by the train probably you're one of the best trained in the country and you know they know what they're doing. You know they they they have will discipline and you know they have a lot better tools than I had to let's just say that. So it's January 16th, 1994, and this is coming to a close. The Elvaro and Doc are about to walk out, surrender, give up their weapons, give up Veronica, and you're just walking in your door after the craziest night of your entire career. You walk in, and hours or two later, not even what happens. Yeah, surely after I got home, you know,

the building started shaking and ended up being, you know, really massive earthquake that hit Los Angeles. So, you know, you just got, you know, you just got, you had done with, with one incident and then you fall right into another and so that you know ends up in a different chapter where, you know, now we're back at work and the department's mobilized for a major earthquake in the city. Do you remember what that felt like and then where you are mobilized? Do you remember what that felt like and then where you are mobilized? Yeah, well, I ended back right back in the city of on D Watch, which is the night shift, 12 hour shifts, beginning at 6 at night to 6 in the morning,

and I was back in downtown on my patrol location. How did you later come to reflect on going through probably the two most traumatic, most profound moments of chaos and violence of your life hours apart? Yeah, it's, you know, again, you know, when you joined the club, but you really never taken a consideration that, you know, again, when you join the club, and you really never take into consideration

that these things happen. And you know, you're facing reality, and this is what the job is. And you know, you hope that you're training and all your experience comes into play, and that your tactics are sufficient. And our tactics and our training got us through that night and got us to just got me through the rest of my career as well.

And how did you, how did this leave an impact or a little mark, you know, and it was at the combination of the double hit with the earthquake and the shooting or did one. I mean, obviously it's a dramatically different one is a city crumbling. Another one is a savage killer threatening your life with a laser at your head for several hours. Like, how, you know, what, what has left a mark? Yeah. So, because, what I was talking about the laser, the laser, the laser never, never painted me. So I was fortunate about that.

The laser was bouncing around me quite a bit. I will say that. But yeah, I don't think you can get any closer than we were to a violent exchange of gunfire with two murder suspects that had the intent to kill us and that hostage. So I don't know if anybody could really prepare themselves for that. You just fall back on your training and your experience and those are the things that

get you through the day. And consequently, there's multiple things that happen through your career, but definitely that one, you know, although it happened, you know, several years back, you know, you remember the details and remember some very, very critical points in that encounter that you'll, you're, they would you forever. Yeah, and like you said, you know, the laser you saw it crawling up the walls and trying to locate your head or your chest, I'm sure you were in a bulletproof vest. But do you, if he got, if he did have a clear shot, do you think he would have used it? I really do. I really believe that if he had the opportunity

and he thought he had the advantage, he had already, he had already demonstrated his intent to shoot police officers. He had already demonstrated that, you know, he wanted to engage the police. So yeah, there was no doubt in my mind if he had a shot, he would have taken it. And if he thought he had the advantage, he would have. Again,

you know, if we were fortunate for us, that, you know, we were we were able to get through this incident and fortunate that we were able to save that hostage at the end of the night. But yeah, that was, you know, a lot of good work by everybody that night that made this happen. Yeah, and remarkable. Also, the hostage negotiator was remarkable as well, and of the hundreds and hundreds of bullets fired in downtown Los Angeles, not one officer was harmed, which is just stunning. I mean, it's hard to believe and thankfully so. What last question, how do you look back on this

and have you ever seen anything like it? How would you gauge these two men? You've come across killers your whole career. That's what you do. What's different about these two? I think that when I look at this incident, you know, and I've learned things subsequent that I didn't know at the time,

but that, you know, you have two individuals that are intent on shooting and killing that, you know, it's just a miracle that everybody made it out of there. I'm scared that night. You know, a suspect that's intent on committing murder and going out in a gunfight with the police. You know, again, I'm surprised that it did not happen. I was, you know, learning that later on that I looked back and reflected. I'm surprised that the outcome wasn't much different, but again, we were very fortunate that night.

Yeah, I mean, just everything about this is just something no one has ever heard of or seen before. Mike Orb with the LAPD, you are an example for all in what you do for our community, you know, now over the years and especially back in 1994, you know, just deserves the most respect and admiration. And, you know, I think we're lucky that you've been one of the city of Los Angeles's Guardian Angels all this time. So thank you for being you. Oh thank you and much appreciated. It was a, it was an untold story and I'm glad you're able to locate it and tell the story

much thanks. Yeah it's just, it's hard to believe and also just quick note on behalf of Kelly McLear and myself to all of the listeners out there who have stayed with us through killing dad and season two of the Miss Grants. Thank you for giving us your time. myself to all of the listeners out there who have stayed with us through killing dad and season two of the Miss Grants. Thank you for giving us your time.