Knowledge Fight - #447: Bill Cooper Covers OKC Part 2

Episode Date: June 22, 2020

Today, after too long a time since Part 1, Dan and Jordan get back on track with trying to follow the path of Bill Cooper's coverage of the bombing of the Murrah Building in Oklahoma City. In this installment, the gents gain some extra insight into Bill from his biography, learn about one of Bill's listener's relationship with their dad, and reveal what Dan learned that made him dance around his apartment.

I'm sick of them posing as if they're the good guys saying we are the bad guys knowledge fight and your knowledge fight I need I need money stop it and the intense and the intense and it's time to pray and the intense hey everybody welcome back to knowledge fight I'm Dan we're a couple dudes like to sit around drink novelty beverages and talk just a little bit about Alex Joe oh indeed we are Dan Jordan Dan Jordan quick question what up what's your bright spot today it's okay here's my bright spot alternative milks are those are those racist milks is that with those milk I've always been a 2% guy or a whole whole milk guy but I've been experimenting lately with

the milk substitutes right and I'm very excited about it like I haven't I haven't hit a snag yet all all pretty good I've gone with the almond milk and now oat milk and both have been winners there they're pretty good serious question yeah what can you not make into milk I don't know I looked at the shelf and there's so many things there's so many things I have a macadamia milk that I'm going to try eventually so nuts get turned into milk there's cashew milk to yeah that sounds wild and there's like I think I saw a hemp one what how does milk even work now I don't hazelnut milk I think almost any nut makes milk you just squeeze that not see that's the image I have it that's that brings me back to black's bit about soybean

juice that whole thing the whole like factory is just really strong guys with cashew in their hand like yeah I was always really averse to anything that wasn't just cow milk right right now I'm realizing that there's a whole world out there of possible things to try that might conceivably be healthier there's kind of like a feeling that I have like I'm not going to be vegetarian or vegan or anything like that sure but like leaning a little bit closer to that yeah is something probably I want to do as I age it's better for the environment for your health etc the whole thing I'm definitely and so like being I say eating a pile of goat cheese just like being a pile of goat but yeah being able to sort of take that attachment

away of the milk because I do love milk and so that's that's kind of nice that's great my bright spot Dan you'll notice I'm wearing a nice little yellow shirt with true eye cloud print on it this is made by one of my partner's friends and it's very good he's got a netsy store called flooding factory and it's fucking fantastic he's a really talented artist he's incredibly overeducated right went to one of the finest art schools in the country Juilliard so forth no that's music Berkeley no I think it's also a music I think it's a Rhode Island School of Design which apparently has a huge fight with Chicago art schools it's a disaster but yeah sharks I got I got one of these and it's absolutely fantastic that's great

I just I really like the shirt yeah it does look good that's a nice yellow shirt cool yeah alright spot hey thrilled yeah so Jordan today we got an interesting episode to go over and we'll get down to business on that here in a moment before we do we had to take a moment to say thank you to folks who've signed up and are sporting the show so first of all hr h i'm guessing her royal highnesses or his royal highness could be king james the eighth thank you so much you are now policy wonk i'm a policy wonk thank you so much i was going to go with whom human resources hello okay could be Richard h thank you so much you are now policy wonk i'm a policy wonk thank you that's uh rh yes it is so hr missing the h hr h rh his uh Richard h yeah

next kirsten p thank you so much you are now policy wonk i'm a policy wonk thanks kirsten next aj thank you so much you are now policy wonk i'm a policy wonk hi aj i don't know how to pronounce this it's all one word dl roho newell thank you so much you are now policy wonk i'm a thank you dl roho newel yeah thank you uh next uh Steve and D thank you so much you're now policy wonk i'm a policy wonk thank you Steve uh then next uh rugh t that's r u h k thank you so much you're now policy wonk i'm a policy wonk thank you rook t and underwater man of the emerald river thank you so much you are now policy wonk i'm a policy wonk thank you very much underwater man of the emerald river i like that yeah finally like to say thank you to a couple

people who donated on elevated love and we appreciate that very much so chaz arol thank you so much you are now a technocrat and valerie w thank you so much you are now a technocrat i'm a policy wonk crikey mate that's fantastic have yourself a brew how's your 401k doing bro all right we got to go full tilt buggy on this Watson all right let's just get down to business we ain't making that money off that heroin why are you pimp so good my neck is freakishly large i declare info war on you thank you so much valerie w and chaz arol yes thank you very much if you're out yes if you're out there listening and thinking hey i enjoy the show i'd like to support with these gents do you can do that by going to our website knowledge fight dot com clicking the button to support the show

we would appreciate it very much though or if you'd like to you could take that generosity tie it up with the bow i'm just i'm i'm you're doing great keep going no no no you got to just fucking push through i've heard a lot of do you remember so many inspirational comedians who've said something like you know what if you don't know where the bit is just push through it just keep talking trust yourself in the bit come on dan you can do it go to your parents house find the cabinet where they keep last year's christmas paper okay wrap up that generosity and give it to a local charity that's perfect you you landed it come on you nailed it i'm not made to do this i'm not meant to do this i can't think of ways to wrap things there's only so many there are only a few ways to wrap

things i gotta figure out how to do this better anyway if you'd we would appreciate it if you'd take that generosity and support the local charity in your area that's helping people in need we would very much appreciate yes so jordan before we get to the episode we got to take a moment to look in at the year of the all right a lot of progress all right a lot of progress you put an almond milk in your seltzers yeah yeah no 143 seltzers down at this point yep we're we're coming up on week 10 which will mean that if we're at 150 after week 10 then we are officially 50 percent ahead of where we should be that's wild yeah so this is great progress we're yeah thrilled i'm realizing two things as i get into today's seltzer update the first is that i'm getting really sick and tired

of everybody having the same flavors almost everybody has the same damn flavors right it's annoying fair it's all just berry and everyone's got a grapefruit none of them are good sure lime lemon those are usually pretty good but you know the effervescent taste yeah yeah it i really am yearning for something different and some creativity i've hit a little bit of a slog of that anybody making seltzers out of spiders and i think part of that is really leaning into like me really appreciating this week some like just plain seltzers like parry a plane when you've eaten all of ben and jerry sometimes you just like to go back to a nice hog and does vanilla yeah there's something that was great parry a plane got in at a 73 all right pretty damn

73 for just a plain yeah just water that they put some carbonation yeah and then very unexpected i found a brand called liquid death that's a really agro can that is aggressive that came in at a 66 it was really crisp really refreshing good just plain seltzer water it's nice so did it give you seven days before somebody's going to come out of your tv conceivably yeah that sounds right it's going to be it's yo yeah i'm going to climb out of my tv everything is permitted except bad second thing maybe this is unpermitted i believe on our first time that we started talking about seltzers i had a confession and that was that i didn't like spin drift right i've tried a couple more spin drifts and i they're not as bad as i think oh no i think i originally just had

some bad flavors i think i got the first ones that i tried were just some shitty flavors but i've had a couple like the raspberry lime was pretty good can't remember exactly what it came in that what do we got 57 that's not a great score but i expected it to be shit based on what i thought about spin drift that's fair not as bad so congratulations spin drift not as bad as i thought slightly exceeds expectations yes still not a compliment nope but okay yeah and that's that's about it for the seltzers all right so jordan today this episode that we're doing here is not an alex jones episode because alex was still out of the still out of studio while i believe he came back over the weekend we're recording this on sunday and i think that he did

some coverage of trump's rally sure from last night a resounding success i haven't read the news oh huge huge huge quick question has bill hicks been doing shows again no although that is an interesting theory i'm guessing that he just took the week off i don't know i imagine he has a lot to get in order with his house not his literal house but his metaphorical house sure i would assume that there's some kind of a need to take care of business some administrative stuff yeah who knows maybe he'll explain when he gets back but i figured that like that would not be really enough for us to really bank on being an episode by the time we need to get get to get to recording so uh we'll say that for wednesday and uh today i'd like to start off this episode with an explanation

about a month ago we started covering bill cooper's coverage of the oklahoma city bombing which i had sincerely intended to become a running weekly investigation i was so confident that we were going to keep moving forward that i teased that i'd found something that made me dance around my apartment which to this point has not been revealed it is the computer chip and a homeless man of our show that's not fair and that tease wasn't fair and i'm sorry that people have had to live in that confusion i promise that that mystery will be solved today the issue is that the very next week uh from when we started that we learned that project camalot was going to a subscription model and as such i felt an obligation to check in on that camalot's been a large part of this

podcast history and it's been an important pressure release as well as an interesting case study and how so many of these different fields of weird conspiracy share a ton of dna so camalot filled the next week's open slot for a non alex episode and then that was the week that the police murdered george floyd sparking protest and an important movement that runs directly counter to what alex jones wants to see in the world it felt critical that we keep a sharp eye on the present day of his show and i know that you and i had conversations about how it would feel bizarre to do an episode and it not be about alex's take on the evolving situation the protests the you know all of that seemed like sure it it was it was important to chronicle it even if alex's response to it

was not necessarily as interesting yeah i'm pretty sure i'm pretty sure we had this conversation at the same time which was it's going to be disappointing probably it's just probably going to be disappointing i don't recall if we necessarily had that conversation but we definitely it's a mind belt yeah so um that that took on a life of its own and also through those uh those couple weeks i was trying to move which took up a ton of my time our episode from friday about owens dumb push-up contest was the product of multiple influences the first was that alex had been out of studio all week the second was that i really needed something kind of light to discuss since we were recording just a few days after i moved and i was still working on settling into this new

place and owens dumb push-up contest fit that bill amazingly it is empty i would probably have rather done a bill cooper oklahoma city episode like i even said on the episode this isn't the kind of meaty thing i want to be right right yeah but i just couldn't swing it for a couple of reasons the first was a time issue uh cooper episodes are dense and they require a lot more prep time the second issue is probably more important and that was that i needed to finish reading bill cooper's biography pale horse rider our show focuses on alex jones who doesn't have a biography written about him yet so the idea of reading one about another person we were covering seemed strange to me i almost felt like cheating i really enjoy the process of discovery that comes for having no

idea what's going to come up and we're just you know we're diving in and learning as we go that works all right with alex or these space weirdos but i realized that with bill cooper not consulting that text is essentially missing a big part of the story there are important pieces of context in that biography that i wouldn't ever got have gotten from just listening to the hour of the time and those pieces of context are pretty important so i felt it would be irresponsible for me to move forward and do another episode about bill cooper right without taking in that biography and really sitting with it this leads me to what i would want to give is a sort of sizable clarification we were wrong to give bill the benefit of the doubt as it relates to him

being a gigantic piece of shit oh great yeah why do we always find that out i knew about him being like a bit of a drunk in an asshole but i was unaware of how violently abusive he was to like his wives this among other revelations have caused me to question my stance of like hey bill's bad but at least he's not alex yeah i was unaware of a lot of the depths of some of the stuff in his personal life and that was wrong of us to well i i don't know who was wrong it was incomplete yeah yeah the problem is we're dealing almost exclusively with tremendous monsters so we're so far below like the mendoza line of just general being a fair human being that simply because we speak about you on our show chances are you should assume that they're the worst human being in the

world may maybe so maybe so but this i mean it's a pretty big part of his life like he for sure he pushed one of his wives out of a moving car while they she was holding their daughter right well no like he's a fucking monster yeah that's a that's a monster yeah that's a monster yeah i mean like the level to which he was that is something that i don't know if we played down but we weren't aware of the depths of it sure and i feel bad about that and now knowing that i like any glowing biography of norman mailer you're wrong i would i would like to now knowing this stuff make it an apology for not being aware of this earlier overall i think that book pale horse rider does a really good job of demonstrating how much of a liar bill cooper was without outright making

accusations beyond these things there was just there was one piece of information in that book it's very relevant to our current exploration about oklahoma city which i highly doubt i would have learned about from listening to bill's show we'll get to that down the road and also the thing that made me dance around my apartment as we go through this also i recommend that book very highly it's it's pretty good all right i'll read it now i'm excited so we're gonna start this off where we left off we we left off a couple days after the bombing and our next episode is on april 24th if you don't recall bill cooper had largely decided that it was a false flag right trying to make patriots look bad standard operating right wing militia kind of narrative

false flag one of his big pieces of it was that seismograph that he was misinterpreting right right that's alleged to show two bombs yes and then misunderstandings about people who had gotten on police scanners and said that they thought that there was another bomb right in the building bill was bill has just taken those things and used them as definitive proof yeah examples of incuriousness you know leading to disaster and conclusion jumping run amok monsters and so we jump in here uh as bill begins on april 24th uh 1995 i'm william cooper and you're listening to the hour of the time well we have a much larger audience tonight folks thanks to the propaganda press and a lot of the new audience are the press who i am absolutely refused to

even talk to except to tell them to go themselves and i will continue that they are what do you mean they are scum they have no moral values they have no ethics and they certainly wouldn't know the truth if it hit them in the head bills on shortwave and he does a better job of censoring himself than and it's pretty remarkable so there's such an interesting phenomenon that seems almost entirely consistent which is that when there's terrifying seemingly random tragedies in this country people flock to whoever is most loudly calling it fake alex got a huge surge out of 9 11 denial and we've seen him explicitly discuss how his traffic increased in the days

after the boston bombing when he was yelling about it being a false flag we've also seen him discuss lately how his covet 19 denialism led to an increase in viewership this makes some sense but it also says something really sad about people it's scary to process things like a bombing or a virus outbreak and we crave easy answers a pandemic is terrifying and there's no easy fix to it so it becomes very appealing to listen to the person saying that the virus itself is no big deal and that all the actual problems could be solved by killing the globalists a random bombing carried out by domestic extremists is super terrifying because no matter how much the police might try they'll never be able to uncover and stop every possible plot people may come up with

it's just a reassuring thought to believe that you know there's an evil cabal of globalists who are orchestrating all of these bombings and if they're just taken care of the bombings will magically go away yeah if you had to grapple with the reality that ultimately no one knows what's going on the world is complete chaos and really you can bully a lot of people who think they're powerful into doing whatever it is you want them to do uh-huh so that's that's kind of scary that's a real bum it is it is terrifying yeah it's really terrifying in times of crisis these kinds of narratives are an attractive crutch to reach out for and i'm depressed but not surprised to see the people were behaving the same way back in the times of bill cooper it's unfortunate for

the listeners because all they get is junk food narratives that mean nothing and go nowhere but it's also bad for people like bill and alex they learn the wrong lessons from the this kind of reinforcement they learn whether consciously or not that denying tragedy is something that draws which definitely has been a lesson that screwed alex over more than once yeah well i i i personally i think it's a bad idea to just immediately deny uh something happened that's that's just me though that's an interesting angle that you have i i'm i've been low i've been known your case lately i've been known for my hot takes i've been tossing them around left and right hot takes like hey let's not kill people and uh hey jordan that's a tree uh prove it

shit i don't even know what you're wearing right now shirt prove it yeah i mean knee jerk denial of things that are really scary and you you know providing easy answers and identifiable um uh the explanations for things it is it is an attractive thing and it's it's just sad i mean it i don't know it like i said it's it's a it's a bummer but it's expected i think it's i think it's really interesting just because deep down regardless of like you can hate authority or you can love authority whomever may be empowered at any given point in time but what unites most people is just that i want to believe somebody is in charge i want to believe there's an adult in the order there needs to be an adult in the room and there simply aren't yeah and i think that that

is that is part of what's being exploited and then also like the way that it's done is like unearned confidence totally totally just bullying yeah bill bill and alex both project themselves is like we've done 20 years of research on all this and i know everything and you know all that like i know everything about seismographs and i can tell you that for sure there was two explosions you know you he doesn't know any of that stuff and now it's be if he was being completely honest about it be like i don't know what this means this is weird yeah and that wouldn't draw that wouldn't give people's attention you need to speak authoritatively about things you have no business being authoritative about and that will give people the false confidence that they need to put

aside those feelings of fear and uncertainty something nobody likes to hear is let's wait until all the facts are in right oh no yeah thank you no good no so bill's mad at the media you of course he calls the this episode is actually titled cnn communist news network who they got he got him and he actually has initials for all the news organizations like national broadcasting communists as you see or short perfect just throw it where there's a c like cbs is communist broadcast service friends of ex communists it's just come on man come on they have sold out for an opportunity to have their ugly mugs on your television set somehow they think that's worth losing all their liberties for and of course the promise that if they're really good and do what

they're supposed to do and echo the marxist socialist party line that they might get to have a retirement check someday well i hope they get it i hope they get it and i hope they get it from the cause that they're working for because they will live to regret it actually folks i don't really hope that they get it because if they do it means the end of all of us and it means the end of liberty oh that's bad you see if we lose our liberty in this country the whole world goes down that doesn't sound right we're the last bastion of freedom and we are the only ones who can save us that's just not true we're the only people left in the world with the right to keep and bear arms that's also not that doesn't sound right at all no that's not true

but you know what i was thinking about it because it's demonstrably not true you can own guns in other countries yeah but i think it's because of like what his definition of right to bear arms sure sure sure i i think that he has like and people like bill have such a like absolutist view of what that right entails yeah maybe maybe based on your definition us is the only country but until you define your terms i can't even argue with it no matter what the goalposts will be moved yeah i can already tell i suspect that yeah so in this next clip bill says something as suspicious as we're the only country that can have guns all right and you see the socialist pukes twinging twinging when they hear that you see they don't want you to know that

nazi means socialism nazi means national socialism hepler was a socialist nazi germany was socialism that's right folks you heard it right here you see in this world today they're trying to turn everything around so that wrong is right and right is wrong i don't know man i i think that anytime you hear someone say that nazis or socialist yeah it's a it's indicative of like it's headline reading yeah because i mean like yes it does socialism isn't the socialist in the name well and obviously since democratic is in the name of north korea's republic right we can assume that they have the right to vote i imagine they probably have the right to keep and bear arms right down i would think so i think so yeah i i i mean this is dinesh desuza level uh stuff quite frankly

i don't know it's it's the mark of somebody you should not be listening to that is as reasonable as believing that americans for progress is interested in progress or americans yep it's all in the name yeah so uh bill gets to talking about nazis um and he lays out the history of the Reichstag fire and fine yeah whatever you got us i'm not interested in relitigating a lot of certain issues one of them is the Reichstag fire right and another is weiko like when bill brings up and starts yelling about weiko i don't care i will talk about that on episodes that are about weiko yeah i'm not doing that while we're covering the oakland city bombing right it's it it's it's too much it's too much we're focusing we're right so i'm not gonna argue with him about the

Reichstag fire right now but i am going to take issue with how he uses it um and uh this is this was not great going immediately informed hitler and gobbles this is a communist outrage one of the communist culprits has been arrested wow talk about speed remind you of anything they're talking about people vaporized in oklahoma city yet they found immediately enough parts of a truck to identify those who entered it and make absolutely accurate photographic sketches and get them on the wire service so quick so like i said he's in the middle of reading basically an essay one of his listeners wrote about the Reichstag fire and he's editorializing here to compare that uh how that unfolded to the current situation with the oklahoma city bombing what grade did he get the listener well i think

the listener probably got an egg is bills grading okay he's not a hard teacher okay fair uh you provide him content you get a pat on the head so bill seems to bring up two specific complaints one is that a suspect was identified too quickly for his taste and two it's absurd that they found an axle which led to the rider truck that timothy mcvay used for the bomb right the story about the axle is actually pretty interesting and you can find corroborating information about that find pretty much wherever you look there's an indian line piece from earlier this year where they interviewed denis montian a firefighter who was a responder to the bombing looking back on it 25 years later montian was 19 years old when he assisted in the response to the murrah building

and if you read his account you'll find this quote montian recalled on his walk to the bombing site he pointed to a truck axle in the middle of the road 12 hours later as he walked back to the bus investigators were circling the axle and studying it he later learned that it was from the rider truck loaded with explosives this firefighter had seen the axle which he didn't think was a necessarily meaningful at all could have been from another car in the area or whatever so that was when he was entering the scene and it wasn't until later that that item was seen as significant it's not weird at all really that a destructive bomb could discharge something like a truck axle and have a completely different effect on other matters surrounding it it's how

explosions work yeah it wasn't until paradise city that anybody really cared about the axle oh come on man all right i should be more i'm going to take that one i should be more i would take that one down that is that one that's payback for you know like in my uh sound drops okay very enough bill is making a nonsensical point here about how he thinks the axle should have been disintegrated or something like that just doesn't mean anything yeah in the real world this axle was found and traced to a rider truck which then led to a specific location that the truck was rented from the employee of the truck shop gave the fbi information and a description to make a composite sketch which they then took around to all the businesses in oklahoma city ultimately

finding a hotel where the staff recognized him and put a name to the face it went pretty quick because this was a crime that required around the clockwork by all available agents timothy mcvay had already been arrested at this point he'd been pulled over by a state trooper 90 minutes after the bombing approximately 80 miles north of oklahoma city which is about where you'd expect a guy to be if he was fleeing yeah you know it's about it's about the right distance i would have gone south but i'm imagining because he was so racist mexico was out of the out of the might have been might have been unclear yeah mcvay was missing a license plate and was found to have a concealed weapon so he was arrested and while he was being held the word went out that the fbi

had put a name to the sketch and it was this guy it's pretty remarkable how quickly a suspect was determined and it's a weird quirk that he'd already been arrested for a seemingly unrelated charge but none of that proves anything nefarious the timing and causality of these events makes total sense so i'm going to need to see stronger arguments here from bill to be convinced that this is a new world order plot it just doesn't you can yell about like oh they found a guy so quick it's like the rash tag how they fingered the commies and it's just like that's not necessarily the same thing at all it does feel like everyone in this when you go through this story unlike so many others it does feel like everybody is acting almost reasonably you know like there's nobody

who's doing something absolutely insane on the side anytime you read about like waco there's who is doing something insane on the side or you yeah yeah everybody would like the federal agents fuck up all of this shit happens all the time but in this situation everybody's like he bombed a federal building let's get round the clock shit to find this guy i'm almost certain if you looked far enough you could find probably some example of some short botched yeah i the cop still planted a gram of weed on timothy mcbay just in case you know you gotta you gotta plant something you can't prove that that's a bill cooper ass theory right there so yeah i mean it's just he's there's just these thin flimsy analogs that he's trying to make with the the rash tag fire and it's just it's

no good it is is unearned entirely and he goes on because he talks about the motive so hitler controls some 250 seats not a clear majority if he could wipe out the critical 100 communist seats he would win his battle for power not see authorities had already waited the carl league net house headquarters of the communist party in blaine but they have failed to incriminate the communist and in revolutionary conspiracy as a pretext for silencing them they had to think of something else because the date for a national election was vast approaching and so hitler burned the right stag blamed it on his political enemies and seized control of germany and you know the rest

and the same thing is happening here now this argument is dumb no that's insane yeah it's the result of desperately straining to make connections between historical events and present circumstances it's one thing to say that hitler blamed the rash tag fire on communists in order to solidify his power and demonizes enemies but it's a completely different thing to claim that that's the same thing going on with oklahoma city bill clinton became president in 1992 and was up for reelection in 96 after the 94 midterm elections the the republican party had control of both the house and senate so presumably what bill cooper is trying to imply is that bill clinton was trying to blame the okc bombing on the right wing extremists to take control of congress in

the 1996 election yeah this did not happen as the republicans held on to their majorities in both the house and senate as well as their majority of governorships around the country yeah it's all it's always nice to remember when you look at our political system today that once we were allowing newt gingrich to roam the earth with power which is a terrible idea he comes up every now and again i'm like whoa right whoa right yeah that guy really newt newt gingrich yeah we allowed god damn narratives like the one bill is putting forth here sound good if you're looking for a way to blame your political enemies for everything bad that happens but at a certain point you have to take a step back and recognize how none of the things that should happen if bill cooper is right

ever happen the clintons didn't use okc to bring in a socialist dictatorship and they didn't even win congress the next year this should kind of leave big this this should lead you to question the conclusions the bill like he's just talking shit here's my problem with his internal logic if if he's painting the the nazis as a socialist regime regime with as he would call it a marxist socialist doctrine why is hitler trying to get rid of the communists instead of allying with him i don't think i follow well he's saying that that hitler is a an avowed socialist right he considers marxism and socialism to be equal and the same yes i suppose so why is it that hitler hates the communists in his world view wherein hitler is also a communist wouldn't it be possible

to just like wrangle him in and be like hey we're getting a communist system and they're like well we don't like fascism and he's like or i'll kill you and they're like we love verses i gotta be honest i hate i have no answer for that yeah right it doesn't make any sense yeah it makes no sense because you're saying that hitler and the communists are the same people right he's got to get rid of them to take over right yeah very smart yeah that's a good point that's a very smart person that's a good point i really i legitimately i i try to you know enter these people's minds to understand the logic and the thinking and i i don't know yeah i think i could answer from alex's perspective but from bills i don't know i don't know what he would say yeah he would say that the communists

and the nazis are not actually of the same ilk okay but they're being controlled by the same people to be against each other that's smart that's what alex that's what alex would say sure but i don't know what bills take on it would be because the way he's presenting it it does seem contradictory yeah yeah it doesn't make any sense i got nothing for you man well fair enough so there's not a whole lot of development of the storyline of the okc bombing in terms of like bill's conspiracy on this episode there's just mostly continuation and here on this 24th we see him continue to talk about the the seismographs and the multiple sound waves so there's no mistake and i am not making this up he clearly says ladies and gentlemen i don't care what the government says these are clearly

two separate and distinct events both of the same magnitude and the same duration parted by 10 seconds 10 seconds he clearly shows us how to read this he shows us a train that passed close to the sensor he shows us normal traffic heavy traffic and then the two events two separate and distinct explosions not echoes the source is dr louisa of the oklahoma geological survey starkey energy center university of oklahoma norman oklahoma and we received this information on the 21st of april at 120 per year thanks for the timestamp why isn't the communist news networks why aren't they reporting this

the government is lying ladies and gentlemen to clarify the media is not covering this because bill's misrepresenting this information not because the media is lying sure the oklahoma reached out to dr can louisa to get a comment about this because bill was going on and on about it on air yeah and from the article in the oklahoma quote louisa said the second event recorded on the seismograph could have been a secondary reaction which he referred to as a refraction effect from the explosion at the federal building in oklahoma city he said the reading could have also come from a quarry blast louisa described the waves detected in norman as surface waves he said without seismographic readings from two other locations geologists cannot determine where the

waves came from sounds like the government is lying to you sure this mystery is solved eventually as we discussed our last episode but that was what the oklahoman was putting out then having got comment from dr louisa the oklahoman reached out to bill cooper to get his response which was predictable i'll see you in hell quote comment uh contacted for comment friday cooper said the press has been discredited in the eyes of all patriots don't you ever call me and tell you learn how to print the truth god dammit god dammit cooper yeah what a dick yep this piece of information the bill is latched on to his proof of multiple explosions is not true the foundation of his conspiracy is something that he's misunderstanding and he's reinforcing his misunderstanding by

misrepresenting the comments of an expert this is just bad work this is bad work yeah if if an expert says two things refraction and i'm going to need the confirmation from two other sources that means the government is fucking lying to you i don't care what the government no i don't give a shit what the government says i'm gonna tell this person who listens to bill cooper's radio show and emails him constantly that i can tell you definitively the government is lying it's the only thing that makes sense to me i don't buy that so bill bill develops a little bit of another tendril of conspiracy here very suspiciously a lot of senior supervisory personnel were not at work that day we're not at work

why who warned them what the fuck is this that's not even reported who warned him that's rumor mom warned them here's how you know that this doesn't mean anything uh how many people is bill talking about not being at work he calls them senior supervisors but senior supervisors of what bill has no specifics just vague insinuations which seems like it's counter to his motto of always doing your research and not passing along rumors well i mean they were important senior advisors on account of they were the how do we keep this building from being bombed advisors so that they were missing was kind of a tell yeah that's that that's the one that's the one that's going to do it i think how can someone who pretends to be a just the facts kind of investigator get

on his show and report that an unspecific number of senior supervisors for an unspecified agency weren't at work on the day of the bombing without substantiating that at all then use the insinuation to assert that someone must have warned them not to come to work even if we go ahead and assume that an uncommon number of supervisors were not in the building when the bomb went off how can bill prove that someone had to have warned them is it not possible that some of them might have been in a field or on assignment is it not possible that some might have called in to work sick that day there's a ton of possibilities the bill's just completely ignoring because the conclusion has already been reached in his mind and the process of reporting on this story only exists to serve

the goal of solidifying that conclusion yeah bill cooper basically cosplays as a guy who's looking for the truth sometimes it manifests in good ways like when he scolds his listeners for bringing up unfounded nonsense but in reality those are not instances of him caring about the truth when bill scolds his callers for bringing up rumors that's really just him expressing his authority over the audience it's it's good research when he passes along rumors but it's abhorrent and stupid when the listeners do the same thing it's basically cult leader stuff where it's a sin for you to do something that's a virtue for me yeah yeah i was it's it's uh it's deeply messed up yeah i was thinking he's he's more like less interested in the truth and more interested

controlling what the truth is you know it is it is nothing to do with uh searching for anything it has everything to do with being like this is concrete yeah and i know it and kind of like setting the terms of the search itself yeah yeah yeah yeah absolutely we can have disagreements on very small surface level things but if you come at me with anything like a it's not a false flag i will kill you yeah and i'll accuse you of doing the same bullshit i do you're the communist news and network uh-huh so in this next clip bill discusses the arrest of timothy mcvay and uh this is this is messed up stuff and this brilliant explosives expert who planned and carried out one of the most terrible crimes in the history of the country speeds away in a car with no license plate

and he is exceeding the speed limit to the point where he has to get caught and the officer stops him notice that he doesn't have a license plate and begins writing a ticket glances inside the car and sees a concealed weapon yeah was a concealed weapon how did he see it ooh you got him the plot thickens this really begins to eat it folks this guy made no attempt to get away made no attempt to shoot the officer yet he whoa blown up a building full of people there's no desperation here so first of all bill's playing games here about the idea that if a weapon is concealed it'd be impossible for a cop to see invisible that's ridiculous and the fact that bill's going down that road is kind of embarrassing

it's an indication of how weak his position is uh and he's just trying to cast out and make the arrest suspicious there's something interesting going on here with bill's claim that uh you know it's it's weird that he didn't try and kill the police officer the timothy mcvay didn't try to kill him yeah that's a little weird that's a that's a real telling kind of thing that you expect someone to do it's weird yeah six years after the bombing a right wing media figure would tell a story about how they had met with timothy mcvay and an associate before the bombing the meeting ended with them telling him to quote watch oklahoma city uh but one of the topics of conversation was what should mcvay do if he's pulled over by the police quote just take the ticket and go on your way was the

advice mcvay was given to which he replied quote you don't think i should shoot them this was rebuffed quote why would you shoot someone over a ticket that right wing figure was bill cooper get the fuck out of here do not say that to me get the fuck out of here when bill cooper saw the sketch of timothy mcvay and saw that he was the main suspect for the oklahoma city bombing he had to have realized that he'd met that guy and was pretty he was pretty fucked up bill had to realize that he'd seen mcvay in possession of a bunch of copies of the turner diaries and that he'd been told to quote watch oklahoma city according to bill's own telling of the story that's that's a real i mean i could see him you know narcissistically inserting himself into the story but also

that's deeply deeply fucked yeah this does if that's true that's really fucked up this doesn't seem like the right kind of inserting yourself into the story i don't know i mean you know some people confess to murders they didn't commit i don't know it's true yeah so mcvay and his associated had been traveling on i-40 when they decided to stop in at surplus and stuff the owner of which was a friend of bill cooper's named till uh tim lesperance according to pale horse rider quote lesperance asked them if they'd ever heard of bill cooper sure they had the two men said bill cooper was their favorite they listened to him all the time that sounds alexy lesperance told them he could introduce them and that's how the meeting came to happen eventually investigators

learned that another man named michael fortier had been aware of the plot to blow up the murrah building but it dropped out of the conspiracy before it came to fruition pale horse rider includes a passage from an interview that michael fortier did in august 1995 with an outlet called the outpost of freedom quote what led to the bombing hunt asked fortier who had backed out of the murrah building plot halfway through and later served as the state's star witness against his former compatriots well fortier aside i can't say a whole lot but we heard a lot of tapes and saw videos and read things there is this guy with a radio station in arizona bill cooper he kept calling people sheeple and was mad that they ain't doing anything to change things well we got to thinking

that's right things need to change tim really responded to that bill's work of trying to build up a conspiracy theory that gets timothy mcvay off the hook is sloppy and desperate and possibly on some level that could be motivated by a recognition that he knows fully well he's part of what inspired the bombing this is basically the same behavior that we see from alex jones all the time and it's an important thing to understand while this is certainly not a universal thing a lot of conspiracy theory operates as a way to cover up the unpleasant and damning parts of one's own community that you don't want to recognize and accept are real alex constantly comes up with conspiracy theories to minimize and ignore white supremacist violence because he knows that his show operates on a white

identity level that has a possibility of inspiring such acts similarly he knows that his extremist gun absolutist rhetoric requires him to come up with conspiracy theories every time there's a mass shooting the reality of mass shootings and white supremacist violence are threatening to alex's worldview so it's important that those things be denied and explained away with conspiracy theories it's the globalists doing it they juiced somebody up it's mind control man in the same way bill cooper's entire thing is very threatened by the idea that someone who is directly inspired by his show and ideology could have bombed federal building and killed tons of people it's the ugly conclusion of the rhetoric that he's put out and bill knows that so this requires a conspiracy

yeah that's i i mean i can't i can't believe that yeah like i i could i could not i could not live with myself like the idea that you could just go on with your show and just use denial just basic denial with the full awareness that this guy you knew this guy well you met this guy well there's no indication that you had a new each other well or no no i'm not saying that i mean i would i would believe that initially maybe bill wouldn't immediately realize that this is the guy sure but that would fuck me up forever yeah yeah jesus bill wouldn't tell his story of meeting mcvay until a few years later but even here mere days after the bombing you can see the ripple of bill's influence timothy mcvay could have shot the cop who pulled him over and he might have gotten

away but he didn't because he was just pulled over for missing a plate and his bill cooper had allegedly told him why kill someone over a ticket and here on air bill is baffled by the decision that he very well might have advised timothy mcvay to make and is using that decision as proof that mcvay couldn't be the bomber because if he was he would have tried to kill the cop whoa man man man inadvertently inspiring the okc bombing and inadvertently catching the okc bomber is a very strange existence to live yeah that is that is real weird yeah these are the things that are like this is why i needed to finish the work before we could get back to business on this uh this stuff yeah oh man so um that is a mess and this will develop a little bit as we go through

the rest of this episode but before that we got to get to what made me dance around the apartment mic down larry nickles on the jazz mccay show wwe at 11 am in cleveland identified one of the suspects from the artist's drawings as either brown or void of meaner arkansas and speaking of meaner arkansas hillary clinton will be indicted my information is that she has already been indicted in secret and it will be announced to the public sometime within the next yeah so larry nickles in play that was a fucking roller coaster ride yeah we we start with larry nickles is in place oh yeah of course and then we end with q and on hillary clinton has already been secretly indicted sure god nothing ever changes nope that's another thing that i want to

really drive home looking at this uh coverage of the okc bombing it's like it's less sophisticated in terms of the the radio you know whereas a lot of this propaganda is so much more media savvy now yeah way more media but so much of it is exactly the same tricks god you can sell it over and over and over again so i know even sort of wondering where the worlds of bill cooper and alex jones would intersect as it relates to larry nickles and here we have it part of me at hope that bill would be smart enough to not trust larry but as it turns out if someone hates bill clinton you just go ahead and believe whatever they say that was larry nickles entire career yep just like finding people who hate the clinton's a lot enough to believe him yeah back in the 90s there wasn't

there just wasn't a conspiracy that didn't somehow link back to larry nickles somehow which is awesome because it allows you to laugh at pretty much everyone who took him seriously an unreal yeah unreal also like what you were pointing out that thing about hillary is fascinating mostly because this is a meme that's recently been resurrected on social media and spread around by dumb dumps not just the qanon thing like this specifically for about exactly what bill is talking about we're all gonna die yeah the clinton's at the time were in the middle of the white water scandal but hillary wasn't set to be indicted nor was he secretly indicted according to a 1995 article in the washington post this theory was spread by a guy named sherman skullnick a contributor

at the conspiracy nation newsletter skullnick was quote convinced that either clinton's financial supporters or someone in the government ordered the bombing to obscure the fact that two days earlier hillary rottem clinton was indicted on two felony counts in the whitewater pro sure secret indictments are kind of a standard trope of conspiracy as you can see from the present and from the mid 90s they're an appealing angle because there is such a thing as a sealed indictment so you can craft all kinds of theories about them uh that feel like truth to people yeah i'm waiting to find out fucking xerxes's son was secretly indicted god sakes go to bed it's all it's so under wraps it's so old yeah the bottom line here is that hillary was not indicted for white water and

has nothing to do with the oklahoma city bombing this is just another weak attempt on bill cooper's part to do anything he can to take the blame off his big fan to mithy mcfei man that's nuts uh-huh so this brings us to the end of the 24th and we jump in on the 25th and man this was not a good episode this is a bad episode so it would be it wasn't labeled very good no no only episodes with callers are labeled good so bill gets into like you only have a few clips from the 25th because mostly it's him just rambling about militia sure sure sure so in this next clip he talks about uh how these are these aren't militia men those arrested for the oklahoma city bombing have not been charged have not been tried have

not been found guilty of anything and in this country you are innocent until proven guilty unless you're hillary in which case you're already guilty none of them have been or ever will be connected to any militia in this nation they're not militia men they're not patriots it's fair enough to point the you know to point out the people in this country are innocent until they're proven guilty the issue comes down to the fact that it's pretty obvious that bill will consider these guys innocent long after and despite the fact that they've been proven guilty of the bombing he doesn't care about the process you're innocent and even after you're proven guilty he's just using the idea of innocence

until being proven guilty as a way to insist that they are in fact innocent it may be the case that timothy mcvay was not a formal member of a specific militia but that doesn't mean he's not a creature of the same world of militias there's been reporting that shows that timothy mcvay and terry nickles attended meetings of the michigan militia their then leader norman olson told the associated press quote these people were told to leave because that kind of talk of destruction and harm and terrorism this naturally is the kind of thing that makes sense to say after someone bombs federal building however you may sound a little different beforehand michigan live pointed out that a year before the bombing norman olson told a recruitment meeting

quote if this country doesn't change armed conflict is inevitable well there there this is how it goes you bring in disaffected angry young men with talk of armed conflict then deny that you had anything to do with them when they followed through with those words this is a pattern that you see in right wing propagandists pretty much across the board info wars interviews jack pasobiac about how scary comet ping pong pizza is then they pretend they never got into pizza gate stuff after someone shows up at comet ping pong with a gun this is how it works on a more meaningful level the fact that mcvay might may not have been officially in a militia is meaningless his beliefs lined up almost entirely with the beliefs of right wing militias at the time he was large

le motivated by the government's actions in waco which was a galvanizing point for pretty much all right wing militias he had almost identical politics to all of them i don't know i don't like calling them militias militias calls back to proud you know minute men kind of history i prefer to call them civil war preenactors like they're they're just as lame as civil war reenactors that's a good that just hasn't happened yet that's a good pun it's so annoying i'll erase your earlier bad no i'm going to keep that one there okay so here's the only other club that i have from this episode uh where bill talks a little bit about timothy mcvay and this is where i'm totally convinced bill knows that this is the guy that he had met okay the one

whom i have investigated timothy mcvay claims to have participated as a volunteer any mind control operation the united states army and was implanted with a micro computer chip hey he's been telling his friends this ever since he left the united states army and nobody has listened he even claims that the united states army could follow him by electronic surveillance of this chip and knew where he was all the time it's weird that bill is bringing up this idea that mcvay had a chip implanted in him because this sort of thing apparently wouldn't require any research for him to know about from pale horse rider quote then the withdrawn mcvay spoke up plaintively he also had a computer chip implanted in his body he

said cooper could touch it if he wanted to it was in his right but cheek quote he really wanted me to confirm it was there i declined for obvious reasons cooper said suddenly turning sympathetic to the executed bomber but i wish to this day that i had not been so squeamish and had personally checked his buttock to see if there was something there according to bill cooper's own telling of the events timothy mcvay himself told bill that he had a computer chip in his ass yeah so there are two possibilities here one is that bill is reporting things that he got directly from mcvay and he's lying by omission by not telling the audience where that information came from because he knew that it would probably raise more questions than he'd like if it were known that he'd met with

the oklahoma city bomber who was in the process of uh you know he's in the middle of creating a conspiracy to defend the guy it wouldn't be a good idea to be like and listen my buddy timothy mcvay over here he was telling me that he had a computer chip in his ass and i wouldn't touch his ass because obvious reasons look i look he had a computer chip in him i know that because i met him and i'm also trying to desperately defend him yeah this doesn't look good he claimed he was being followed which was obviously true so that's one possibility but the other is that bill's later story about meeting mcvay could be totally made up the associated press reported about timothy mcvay's claim that he had a chip in his buttocks as early as april 22nd 1995 prior to this episode

that we're listening to now okay and it's conceivable that everything in bill's story of the meeting is just stuff that he learned after the fact sure the turner diary's detail the microchip the warning about oklahoma city that could all be bill creating a tall tale yeah whatever the case michael 40 years interview where he discussed how timothy mcvay really responded to bill cooper's talk about how people needed to actually do something that's information that's not filtered through bill and thus it can be taken a little bit more seriously bill may or may not have actually met timothy mcvay but he definitely inspired him oh yeah that's the conclusion that you really can't shake it's the only conclusion you can draw and it also like you know the believing bill's story

about meeting timothy mcvay is fucked up yeah like if that's true it's fucked up wild if it's not true and he's making that up what does that say yeah exactly either way i really like because if you're making that up it's almost like hey i want cred with the militias which means the militias respect what he did which means all of my lies about how it's not militias who want to do this is bullshit right right that is another that is a complexity yeah so we get in here um or we're gonna about to jump to the 26th but like i said this episode on the 25th is real just bill rambling but our great militias are and it honestly has no connection to the present day or the bombing really outside of it being intensely defensive about people

suddenly being a bit curious about what's going on in these militias i found myself zoning out almost entirely as bill went on and on about how if you're an able-bodied person in arizona between the ages of 18 and 45 you're a member of the militia whether you want to be or not it was all just stuff that i couldn't get myself to care about because even if that's technically true according to the arizona constitution who cares what does that mean today probably nothing most likely nothing man you start reading state constitutions you're gonna find all kinds of weird shit if i'm automatically a member of the illinois militia yeah let me say this right now they don't need me yeah are you sure okay i'm a conscientious objector to being

in a militia can't be yeah that's my plan can't be how is this different than the draft then if everyone's automatically conscribed into the militia to be called up if needed you're already there i don't know about this anyway i don't care it's it that is most of what that episode is i just what a shit day you get the new it's a on fucking cnn the communist news network by the way everybody's going to fight now yeah i'm sorry uh excuse me yeah tomorrow you're all going to show up at the war everyone under 45 get a gun goodbye so um bill starts out the 26th on a bit of a down note well ladies and gentlemen everything that uh i've been warning you about is coming through and i hate it i mean it's i hate it it had been my intent my dream my purpose

and doing all that i have done subjecting my family to all the suffering that they've been subjected to and spending all the money that we spent upon this instead of upon ourselves to try to prevent any of this from ever happening by waking enough people so that by sheer weight of numbers of educated awake intelligent smart people could prevent all of this i have this overwhelming sense that somehow i fail hey you should i really don't know what to do about that except to

continue in some manner to try to help bring this to some eventual resolution by hooker crook it's interesting because i mean we just recently saw alex getting into this mode um as the coronavirus uh as the covet 19 stuff um started to become more outside of his narratives i guess yeah more real than his narratives you know the lot of talk of we've lost this the globalists have won yeah that kind of thing you're seeing the exact kind of similar response to bill after like realizing yeah timothy mcvay is going to be proven to be guilty of this that was me oh boy yeah like it's so it's so interesting to see like after a crisis point after a really big thing that like is maybe beyond

your abilities to spin or to make all right yeah you realize i've failed yeah i've failed yeah uh it's these these guys it's strange because it's kind of their way of taking responsibility for it by absolutely not taking any responsibility for what happened and instead taking responsibility for something that is 100 fictional you know like i am so sorry i have we lost the fake battle yeah i have failed you we should have all woken up by now right is their way of being like oh i caused that bombing fuck i i would you know what i that's a generous reading yeah it is yeah i would sorry i should have assumed they're all psychopaths i would like to believe that it's the way of pro like allowing that like grief or whatever to process but i'm not convinced it no i'm fair with

that so um one of the things that i've come to realize as i listen to more and more of bill's show is that his uh information gathering process is almost entirely just messages that he gets from listeners it's just letters yes yeah and so he this is one that's like you don't need to report everything you need to report everything from our station chief on the scene in Oklahoma City did i dream that i heard this did someone else say it please find someone else who listened to national public radios all things considered evening show today and make sure that i am mistaken about this i hope i am wrong i thought i heard a professor from george washington university when being interviewed about the explosion of hate say that we would have to choose between

keeping and expressing our freedom of speech and having freedom from terrorism this is such a great manifestation of how bad this operation is like bill fancies himself to be the head of an intelligence operation of the second continental army of the republic and as such he has the citizens agency of joint intelligence or kaji which serves as his data gathering team that's just his listeners who have paid him dues sending him emails that he calls intelligence reports and here you can see the quality of the work that's being done by his station chief who has emailed bill to uh complain about something she thinks she heard on npr something she thinks she heard on npr dan i dream that obama was president again could you could somebody

please confirm that i would like at least one letter you sir are my intelligence operation that on this american life they were like by the way obama is still president so bill's oklahoma station chief and his source for a lot of his bombing reporting is a woman named michelle more she had no training in journalism or intelligence gathering being a ballet instructor by trade more liked bill cooper so she paid her dues and signed an oath of allegiance to the second continental army of the republic and was named a quote second lieutenant of the intelligence service under bill plie you sheeple on her commission papers the general who is above bill is quote listed as george washington you kind of get the sense that bill was running the entire

second continental army of the republic and pretending there was a chain of command basically more cosplay is the ghost of george washington more would go on to write a 640 page book called oklahoma city day one that bill thought was going to be his masterpiece it was going to definitively prove all these conspiracies based on thorough documentation of media lies on the day of the blast bill insisted on expensive binding for the first edition which he charged 60 dollars for he sent for an initial printing of 500 copies and he couldn't even sell that in pale horse rider one of bill's friends says he quote still has several untouched boxes of the limited and signed first edition piled up in cooper's old storage unit that sounds like every comedian's

t-shirts anyway michelle more is bill's station chief in oklahoma who who is where he's getting a lot of this information from and quote in recognition of her tireless work cooper promoted her from lieutenant to major oh well that's really nice hard to imagine how he got george washington to sign off on that promotion it is a battlefield promotion dam also if you're going by officer rankings this is a pretty big jump second lieutenant is oh one whereas major is oh four so this promotion is skipping first lieutenant and captain man she is going she went from four to six figures i'll tell you that right now my guess is that they were able to pull this off because the rankings are meaningless and also i should tell you jordan that i've just decided to make you a

colonel for all the hard work you've done on this podcast a colonel congratulations a colonel colonels above major nonsense total nonsense i don't know if you're a four star general and i'm a colonel this is a real trouble right here as a definite balance of empower yes i agree in balance of power how did i mix that we're going to have to deal with that all right so um i believe i don't know i think it was on our last episode the covered yeah we covered the oakland city bomb and coverage some of these dispatches the bill got about updates on the bomb seemed to just be i met a nice person 100 like your mom writing you a better vacation yeah 100 and we get a little personal in this night all right

so weird so weird so you can imagine my surprise shock and utter disbelief to hear the dreadful things coming from my dad's mouth since the federal building bombing the short period of seven days all of the years of his life have been erased and somebody else now that i never knew before and do not work to know at all he sounded to me like a clone of the mainstream media news broadcasters and the words he was saying were treasonous he has been brainwashed and mind controlled by one week's worth of television coverage unbelievable i do my best to explain to him what the militia really was according to law what purpose it serves what principles most militias stand for that a few few foolish men do not make all those who love this country evil and dangerous

he wouldn't hear a word of it he said he'd rather be killed in his home by some invading enemy than to be rescued from the invader by a militia member now that's that's quite a bit of brainwashing ladies and gentlemen that is really something he'd rather be killed in his home by some invading enemy than to be rescued from the invader by a militia member that's over the edge i don't care about your station chief's relationship with her dad is this news what is going on here what is happening why he's denying the bombing and trying to like carry water for timothy mcvay and also spending time reading a friendly between between compatriots it's a personal interest story you got to personalize the news you know people really got to empathize with

this woman being mad that her dad is a listening sure yeah i guess i was listening to this i resented it honestly i found it first of all to be distasteful because i don't care right and then second because like conceivably bill cooper is supposed to be this guy who like can see through all the conspiracies and he knows everything sure you know forty three fucking hour series on mystery babel on one hundred percent like why you your time is valuable man of according to you this is not the best use of your time chris wallace goes on his show my dad said some really mean stuff about fox news hey and listen i don't ever want to speak to that as well again if you're starting out this episode talking about how like you fear you've lost maybe it's because you're reading

instead of doing work maybe i don't know that's a really good point yeah how could we have lost yeah hey hey maybe you could have figured out what the seismograph readings meant if you weren't spending time ticking around talking about your station chief dad now he doesn't like delicious who cares that's a good point that's a very good point dad so but there's an undercurrent that's also really ugly about this and that is that there is a feeling of alienation that's coming from this station chief and her dad oh yeah no this is cult leadership yeah you're seeing a family break i mean who knows how accurately she's portraying things i have no idea but but taking it face value you're seeing some more fuel um alienated from their

own parent where they're saying treasonous things because they believe the communist news network you need to cut off ties with all family they're suppressive persons yeah only believe bill cooper mm-hmm when i was thinking and this was the station chief talking again when i was thinking last saturday night that my life had changed i guess i did not realize the full extent of it my dad is now the enemy that's so fucked up the station chief didn't know that bill cooper had met timothy mcvay does she bill cooper allegedly could have been just like hey yo uh don't leave your dad between you and me look i can't do this on the show for others reasons sure just like i couldn't touch his butt can't do it on the show right but yeah don't get rid of your dad's totally

right i allegedly met timothy mcvay let's let's be clear because i don't i still don't know what i believe sure i don't i could believe certainly that there was a random chance meeting between them and i could believe bill made it up because he's a fabulous and a liar so i don't know i agree yeah i agree right wing liars tend to always right wing lot that's not that's that is a fallacy though just because someone's a liar assuming they're always lying is is a dangerous game that's why i said sometimes to always lie don't worry about that don't worry about that so that bum me out like in the middle of this this this time frame like just taking a weird route through this personal email doesn't belong on the show at all check this out i made my station chief

painter dad that's kind of what he's doing i mean but but it but it's framed through the lens of like they're so evil they've brainwashed her dad that's just too yeah yuck yep it it can get close to home i'm sure all of you have had terrible experiences with your family members believing not bill cooper uh-huh yeah it's tragedy so there's the other thing bill touched on this back on the episode from the 24th and that has to do with the axle that was discharged from the rider truck um and the notion was an honorable discharge it was and the notion that people were vaporized by the explosion so you get some more to talk about that here spoke today with shon at Oklahoma cremation service in Oklahoma city he went through the cremation process with me in

some detail now they're telling us that some people were literally vaporized listen to this ladies and gentlemen if these people were vaporized then i can guarantee you they never found any trace of any truck so they'd better choose which it is that happened so you begin to be able to tell like he's reading a message from the station chief uh lieutenant soon to be major right um so you get you get you start to be able to tell like oh this is him reading an email that's what's going on here so his station chief went to go talk to this guy who works at the crematorium right now what they're doing is that they're taking information that they got from the crematorium person and applying it to news reports of people uh being vaporized and then they're saying like well

if one happened then the other can't and i don't think that that's fair because the issue comes down to force depending on where the bomb was in the truck it's possible that the axle could have been sent flying with the complete outward force from the explosion simultaneously someone standing near the truck might have had the force of the blast hit them and drive them let's say straight into a wall which could lead to their body being essentially vaporized what bill is doing here is creating a false contradiction he's implying that one thing is true and therefore another thing cannot be true when in reality both can be it feels intuitively correct that an axle shouldn't have survived but according to physics it totally could what bill is doing here is also mixing up

what vaporized means in different contexts yeah i was going to say he goes on to give a long diatribe about the temperatures at which things like calcium vaporize which he's trying to use to prove that any part of the rider truck would have been vaporized as well if a human body was vaporized this isn't what people mean when they say that a body was vaporized generally speaking there's a definition that scientists would use to describe the chemical processes and then there's the sort of vernacular the third definition in mariam webster is quote to destroy by or as if by converting to vapor this sentence is you know that they used to demonstrate it in a sentence is quote a tank vaporized by a shell yeah obviously the shell tank didn't become all vapor it's just a

term that people use to describe a particular type of destructive process yeah you when in this context it's just hyperbole and that's it's a sci-fi term for i know because when you say vaporized if you mean it in a destructive way the way that these guys are talking about it they're talking about there should be nothing left right it should be literally vapor which is only sci-fi no it's not it's it's real i mean it's real but in in this context it's not like there's zero evidence of right i mean there's you know like a nuclear explosion could well yeah like radiation of course you could get there a volcanic eruption you can leave all that yeah i get it from the like the stories that i was able to find both about the oklahoma city bombing and also the world trade

center typically the the ways in which vaporized was being used generally had to do with you know people who died in ways that you couldn't get identifiable remains right so you know if someone's body is like exploded to a point where it's not recognizable right it seems like there are instances where that's just called body was vaporized sure when speed like it's not a technical term and i think that what bill is doing is seeing that word being used in some media coverage and then implying or pretending that what they're actually saying is that everything was so hot that the body became vapor exactly and i'm not convinced that that is the truth i i'm not convinced that that's what those news stories were saying well i mean the the i would assume that the crematorium

because it takes a ridiculous amount of heat to cremate somebody that's why they went there to talk to that guy in order to get the evidence that it would melt the axle before a human body but that's that's the game that's being played i mean you could look up how much heat it takes to vaporize an axle you could look up all of these physical right situations yeah like you could just look at it sure the internet exists that's true or not in 95 books exist still though they still exist so does kaji that's true yeah they're probably more reliable than fucking tell one of your listeners to go look for it and call it a day once again you can find so many people who've dedicated their entire life to studying the physics of just this type of situation it's true but

you should really probably trust your station chief who hates her dad now and instead of talking to one of those people who could actually tell you those things go talk to an unrelated field someone at a crematorium totally so um one thing that i i haven't really pulled out from each episode but does deserve mention is that bill is like still selling yeah is gold okay ladies and gentlemen the hour the time is brought to you by swiss america trading if you're interested in getting your hands on some real money before the proverbial buffalo chip hits the fan and i'm telling you it's not far off and you better call our sponsors swiss america trading and talk to them about what real money really is so you know he's announcing it as a you know an ad so like it's

not as offensive as alex but it's still worth mentioning you know like there's there is a trend of like the shit's about to hit the fan you got to get real money yeah just still a little bit fear based sales but whatever manipulative but so is all advertising really isn't it somewhat so bill has a big philosophy and that is whoever fires the first shot loses right you've heard alex say this exact same thing it's pretty common and it also is nonsensical and internally inconsistent and remember i've always told you i've warned you i have admonished you whoever fires the first shot wins did you hear what i said that's what the socialists believe and that's why they blew up in the building in oklahoma city because i'm telling you right now it was the government

intelligence community that did it there isn't any doubt about it so bill believes that whoever fires the first shot loses but these socialists they believe uh the the the new world order that is of course of course they they believe whoever fires the first shot wins because they get to blame it on their enemies or whatever why not so bill has said that the new world order did the oklahoma city bombing and that clip which i have to assume would count as the first shot so what is he telling his audience they've lost is he telling them that they should just wait for another shot i don't know i don't know this kind of shit is so stupid why would you be insisting to the audience that whoever fires the first shot loses if the first shot's been fired

they lose according to your principles it's not some abstract future thing now it's the past according to bill cooper's canon the first shot's been fired fuck this is probably the thousandth shot according to him so now any offensive action taken against the government isn't offensive right i mean that's self-defense it would be by definition it would have to be a response to this first shot and therefore completely justified that's the implication of what bill's saying but he would never say that because then the game's over this is one of the things that i see is just proof that these people are full of shit if you think you've proven that the new world order blew up a federal building and killed tons of people and that isn't enough for

you to say that it's time to take up arms against them where is that point there is no point because you know that when you cross that line you're not making any more money and you'll probably go into jail yep so you stay right on the edge of that point yep yeah i would say at this point same day shipping is more than is more important than liberty for most people so i don't think there is a first shot anymore i don't think it can happen and it like when especially when you're like all right this is a new world order conspiracy that goes back to babalon and like yeah yeah it's a thousand year old conspiracy the fuck are you talking about a first shot i would like to do it i would like to know when does the first shot start well that that goes from cold to hot war dan and

then it eventually goes back to cold war and then it'll go back to hot war so and whoever fires the first shot in each cold war loses the hot war which is why they come back during the other cold war to win the next hot war i just get a headache yeah i'm just sick of it it's a bad idea so in this next clip bill gives what i would describe as a uh rare apology sorry to that ladies dad they're not patriots and i should not have said that because apparently they were in the military or at least one of them was or two i guess and they did serve honorably and uh at least one to my knowledge is supposed to have served in desert storm so uh under the concept that you are innocent to approve and guilty i apologize for making that statement last night i should not

that's what bill decides is worth giving an apology about yep he said that timothy mcvay and terry nickles were not patriots but he since learned that they were in the military so he's sorry he said that they weren't patriots that's amazing none of the other stuff in his career requires retraction but this does the first chapter of his book was based on a fraudulent document the silent weapons for quiet wars but he's not apologizing for that behold a pale horse contained a full reprinting of the protocols of the elders of zion did not it did oh god but it had a note attached to it that said that you should replace the word jew with illuminati oh no but that's oh no that's not apology worthy he did suggest that two men who've been

arrested for blowing up a federal building aren't patriotic when they were it be because they were in the service and that's something that he's got to make right hey you gotta that's wild do not absolutely denigrate our military men even though technically in my worldview they are controlled by the new world order and they will be used to destroy us something like that don't fuck with the military so and we get back to this other theme here of the socialists are nazis nazis are socialists sure that kind of thing we must not allow to happen here what happened in nazi germany it will not be us sitting in a defense docket in another nurburgr trial it will be the real nazis the real nazis

nazis are socialists don't ever forget that we believe in republican constitutional government and liberty the constitution says no state shall tend to retain the debt anything other than gold or silver coin the united states code says that money is gold and silver coin and that it is expressed in a measurement called a dollar calls for some air trading now 1-800-289-2646 folks and get some real money and you better do it soon all indications are that time is running out that's an ad pivot that's a lazy ad that was that was yeah that's uh that's that's that's jonesian his heart wasn't really in it though no

but he did it hey look these are the real nazis and a nazi nazi by my gold yeah that's i mean it's so it's so alex i yeah just a different personality different broadcasting style doing the same thing as alex it's wild i i hate i i don't understand well i understand it completely but they always say nazis are socialists socialism being an economic system right they never say nazis are fascists fascists being the government system that they don't like so it seems to me that they are more angry about an economic system i think that is probably they are about a government system i think that's probably true i agree so much of the that's what i'm saying i's libertarian uh leaning kind of alex jonesy bill cooperry stuff is like it's so much

like property rights are above everything yeah and that's that's a way to get to fascism real fast but and it's something that would be at loggerheads with yeah yeah absolutely any ideas heading more towards socialist systems totally so um there's something else that bill is a little bit upset about he's got a little b in his bonnet and that is that bill clinton went on 60 minutes and they had an interview and bill has decided that he has condemned uh timothy mcvay to dash on 60 minutes steve croft it seems almost certain now that this is homegrown terrorism that the enemy is in fact within how do we respond to that doing nothing well we have to arrest the people who did it we have to put them on trial we have to convict them and punish them i certainly

believe that they should be executed i hate to tell you this slick willie we all despise that bombing do you know if anybody's guilty yet you've already convicted them and you're executing them that's not what he said that it's not american he literally said not that and it's not for you to decide to destroy judge and jury to make that decision i don't think he decided that i i i don't know i mean maybe maybe a president if asked that should just be like i i defer the justice system i deferred but also um if a president is asked after a federal building is blown up uh hey what should happen to the people who are found guilty of this i think the death penalty is appropriate i i don't think that that is equivalent of him being like he's called for his death this person's

death no no i don't know i don't know i guess if you want to really stick be a stickler about it whatever bill have that one right it's dumb but you can have it um so bill cooper also gets mad that uh bill clinton said some things about wakeo in this uh in this clip uh from 60 minutes and bill goes on a diatribe about wakeo that i'm not going to address but i am going to point out that bill is very mad and he is he is very mad okay i cannot believe that any serious patriotic american this is the quote from bill clinton can believe that the conduct of those people at wakeo justifies the kind of outrageous behavior we've seen here in oklahoma city are the kind of inflammatory rhetoric that we're hearing all across the country today it's wrong

what is he talking about no patriotic american in this whole country ever said that those people at wakeo justified anything that happened in oklahoma city he is lying that doesn't sound true there's a long pause and the only way that you can really get around to a comment like that is just how do you define patriotic american like if you're going to say that no true scotsman yeah if you're gonna if you're gonna say that like saying that wakeo justifies the oklahoma city bombing precludes you from being a patriotic american then this is just axiomatic yeah if that's one of the things that's disqualifying then yes no patriotic american

would believe that but i i mean like tim mcvay definitely thought that yeah and i i would be shocked if there wasn't at least one episode of bill cooper's own show where he said this justifies some sort of response that is incommensurate with what the government did i can't so on and so forth i can't say so i i'm not saying i would be reticent to make a prediction of that but i wouldn't be too surprised yeah um but there is also like a ton i mean like it's it's ludicrous to say that that wasn't a position that some people held no absolutely maybe it wasn't all malicious probably wasn't i'm sure that there were a lot of people who were horrified by the events that transpired and were condemning i'm positive of that but there also there is a

contingent of people who would have those beliefs yeah and the only yeah the only real way that this works is that the bill's definition games yeah and i think that that's important for his preserving some sense of self yeah so bill has a big plan he's going to get to the bottom of both oklahoma city and waco is he going to buy a tv station along the way it is as harebrained i'm going to ask that every american gather evidence and proof and begin an investigation to find the culprits the perpetrators and help bring to justice the murderers of oklahoma city and the murderers of waco texas these were both despicable acts and we are going to find out who did it and we are going to raise a fund that is going to ensure

that somebody comes out and talks and i hope you all participate this is going to come back on you bill quinzen and janet rino and fbi and batf and whoever and however did the bombing in oklahoma city i mean it looks like you don't need to do that investigation bar you've already decided no and i think he's done yeah i think his investigation has been completed already great yeah we're gonna raise up a whole bunch of money in order to lure some very competent grifter to tell a great story that confirms my theories larry nickle's ears perked out exactly what's that i can hear money i got i gotta go to work someone's offering the

money these guys like this yeah great plan yeah um so we got one last clip here and it's bill giving a theory about how we're going to get rid of this menace that's known as bill clad okay and spoiler alert didn't work i cannot believe that this nation is sunk so low or that we have someone of the despicable character such as bill clinton in our white house it does not speak well for america and we're gonna have to change that in the next election and the way to do it is to join the constitution party you'll find a forum to do that and the next issue of veritas which by the way you should all be subscribing to because it's the only place that you're ever

going to read the truth so at this point bill cooper had gone all in on the constitution party also known as the us taxpayers party they were never a viable party and at no point have they ever fielded a candidate that has received more than point two percent of the vote for president who got point two i don't remember but they've also never won an electoral vote well of course not in 1996 howard phillips was running his second of three campaigns for president on the ticket and he managed to come in sixth this was an improvement over the 1992 election where he came in seventh i'm not sure that they've even ever successfully fielded a candidate for congress in 2018 i can find one seat that the party won and it was in north carolina the green county

commissioner election for district three anyway i get that guy out of here what are you doing he needs to be impeached if you're a member of that party you got to go i don't know anything about the green county commission maybe he's a good commissioner who knows anyway bill's on board with this party because that's what people like him are supposed to do they're supposed to be on a team that never wins because then they never have to deal with what comes after winning and you always have a ready excuse for why you lost this is the one thing that alex forgot to include in his impression of bill cooper yeah and uh it's bad news you never want to win no you never want to win so that's why that's why you stay with ron paul stay with the constitution party stay with those

sorts of principled uh also rand yeah you know like that's the way to go if you need a little bit more juice go straight libertarian party although that's never really going to work out for you because then you got to like be in favor of gary johnson you got to do a whole thing i couldn't do that no no no so i mean like i found this a little bit disappointing as a stretch of time because i really don't think that there was much coverage of the bombing yeah i mean there was talk of like you sort of decided it's fake right what have you right there's a lot of yelling about weiko and then beyond that it's sort of a large largely continuations of the threads that had already started uh previously that have i guess proven that it was a false flag or something

which i'm utterly unconvinced by oh are you yes but i mean hey look we now have within our field of awareness that bill may have met timothy that's so wild that's just so wild and that bill is name dropping larry nickles and that means that he might do it again i don't think larry's ever been on his show because that's called i would have seen his name scrolling through sure and i would that would have been the first yeah so we did no no we're on that one yeah for all day all day but i don't think he's ever been on the show but i wouldn't be surprised if especially as white water is continuing to go along and anti clinton sentiment it's higher and as linda tomson who did the clinton body cat yeah comes on bill's show he might be quoted

right you're a reference yeah i could see larry nickles becoming more of a like a prominent figure in the cooper verse yeah yeah and it might necessitate a phone call i don't think he's going to take your call anymore i think you will i might he is not busy that is true so i would like to apologize sincerely for the delay this from the part one episode and we'll continue i'll try to do my best to i'm pretty sure everyone blames you for that i think they do yeah i'm pretty sure certainly don't blame you i meant there were other circumstances going on that may have distracted you and not your personal decision making that's a nice kernel yeah but yeah i'll i will we'll we'll keep on this thread because i do know that the conspiracy

evolves it just didn't in these couple days yeah there really isn't that much growth and so we'll see what the section chief brings up next time um but until then jordan we have a website we do have a website it's knowledge fight com that's right we're also on twitter we are on twitter is that knowledge underscore fight and i go to bet jordan yep we're also on facebook indy we are i to just have a great relief review and then if you could please find a local charity in your area bail fund or the like to help with people doing god's work that's right we'll be back but until then i'm neo i'm leo i'm dzx clark i am the chicago station chief of the citizens agency of journalistic integrity for the second conmental

army of the republic andy in chansas you're on the air thanks for holding hello alexa my first name caller i'm a huge fan i love your work i love you