Knowledge Fight - #615: November 8, 2021?

Episode Date: November 10, 2021

Today, Dan and Jordan attempt to cover a recent episode of The Alex Jones Show, but decide to bail and have a chat with Jon Ronson instead. (Apologies about some slight sound issues)

I'm sick of them posing as if they're the good guys saying we are the bad guys knowledge fight. Dan and George. Knowledge fight. Need money. Andy and Kansas. Andy and Kansas. Stop it. Andy and Kansas. Andy and Kansas. It's time to pray. Andy and Kansas. You're on the air. Thanks for holding us. Hello, Alex. I'm a good fan. I love your work. Knowledge fight. No, no, no, no, no, knowledge fight.com. I love you. Hey, everybody. Welcome back to Knowledge Fight. I'm Dan. I'm Jordan. We're couple dudes like surround worship at the altar of Celine and talk a little bit about Alex Jones. Oh, indeed. We are Dan. Yeah, Dan, Jordan. Quick question for you. What's your bright spot? Why don't you go first? Well, my bright spot, Dan, and I never thought I would say this. My bright spot today

is the DMV. Oh, wow. You know what? Before you tell whatever story you're going to tell, I want to say I've always enjoyed going to the DMV in Chicago. Yes. When I was in Missouri, sucked. It was miserable, but in Chicago, I haven't had nothing but positive experience. I swear to you, the place on diversity, I had to go get my license renewed because it was expired by about a year, and I had no idea because I was getting all those texts, you know, the scam texts from the DMV where it's like, your license is expired. You need to, I got that at the same time that I got the regular text. It's hard to tell the difference now. Yeah. And I think that I don't know anybody who keeps up with like, well, I got three months. You know, it's something that you just kind of goes in the back of your

mind. Yeah. No, you don't find out you need a new license until somebody's like, you can't buy that. You need a valid license. Yeah. So the DMV on diversity, I went there. There was a line out the door and I thought we were going to be there for like two, three hours. There were people who saw the line and then just left. They banged it out in 25 minutes. They got to like 50 people. Efficiency. They, and it wasn't just that they were good. It was that the whole group of people there was a tiny little office. Yeah. We're working in perfect harmony with each other. It was bananas to me. Yeah. Everybody was having a good time. Everybody's like, I'm useful. This is what I'm, I'm just crushing this. Everybody's smiling and talking to each other. I talked to three other

people who couldn't help but be like, this is the best DMV I've ever been to. Yeah. It's bananas. The times I've been there, they've been pretty pleasant people too. Like, you know, you all have this like, you know, character in your head of like grumpy, mean DMV. The Oak Park DMV is a pile of shit. Yeah. That wasn't my experience here in Chicago. I don't know. Good on you. It was amazing. They did a great job. Real happy for them. That's awesome. High marks. Hooray. Yeah. My DMV. My bright spot is, I've got a new desk that I'm going to build after we get done recording. Indeed. And I'm very excited about that. I've had this corner desk that came with mismatched wood. Yep. So one end of it is sort of a lighter. What would you call it? A cream color? Yeah. I would

say a little, a little taupe kind of color. Yeah. The other side is like a grayish brown. Stupid. I tried to get the like replaced. They sent me the wrong one again. Yeah. It looks a little bit like one of those red cars with a blue door. Yeah. I've had this desk forever and I'm excited to throw it out and start fresh. Yeah. Modeling the office. So I'm very excited about that. It is the end of the era. The desk has been with us since day one. Yep. Well, missy a desk, but not much. No. So Jordan, today we have an interesting episode to go over. Oh, yeah. I know that on our last episode, I promised that we were going to talk about Alex Jones's response to Tucker Carlson. Sure. Doc U series. Sure. But you know what? I kind of got to thinking about it.

I'm like, why? We know what he said. Yeah. He said he loves it. Yeah. It's the best. It's the greatest thing anybody's ever seen. And it's all just, he made this possible. Tells the truth. It's all because Alex. So instead, what we're going to do is we're going to look at the present. We're going to jump forward. We're going to be talking about November 8th, 2021. Blackjack. Ah, I didn't even come close to that. Nope. So I'm excited about that. But before we get down to business, let's take a little moment to say thank you and hello to some new wonks. Oh, that's a great idea. So first, light switch raves. Thank you so much. You are now a policy wonk. I'm a policy wonk. Thank you. Thank you. Next, Levi. Thank you so much. You are now a policy wonk. I'm a policy wonk. Thanks,

Levi. Thank you. Next, Ella. Thank you so much. You are now a policy wonk. I'm a policy wonk. Thank you, Ella. Thank you. Next, Wyatt. Thank you so much. You are now a policy wonk. I'm a policy wonk. Thanks, Wyatt. Thank you. And finally, Jordan, we got a, we got a technocrat in the mix. Okay. Say hello and thank you to a technocrat. All right. This is WWJDD equals what would Jordan and Dan do? Don't live by that advice. But thank you so much. You are now a technocrat. I'm a policy wonk. Crikey, mate. That's fantastic. Have yourself a brew. How's your 401k doing, bro? All right. We got to go full tilt buggy on this Watson. All right. Let's just get down to business. We ain't making that money off that heroin. Why are you pimp so good? My neck is freakishly large. I declare

info war on you. Thank you so much. Yes. Thank you very much. And I wanted to say one quick thing before we get into the episode. And that is that I got some feedback on our last episode, the Tucker Carlson one, about using names of protesters when I was making illustrations of people who have been arrested who were left with protesters. Right. Right. And I want to say thank you to the person who pointed this out on Twitter and that I didn't need to. You know, I reflected on it a little bit. And the statistics that we talked about really do make the same point. And I didn't realize there's a bit of a blind spot. And the reason I'm calling this out is because I went back and I cut that out of the episode and reposted it. So that's not in the episode now,

but it was. And in case anybody was curious about that or whatever. Yeah. And, you know, it wasn't removed secretly. It's a correction. Yeah. And, you know, try and do a little better in the future of being aware of that. You know, it's a little bit of a I was caught up in the idea of like if I point out these specifics, then it really helps drive home the point. Right. And that's that's not accurate in a neutral reality. Yeah. That is totally fine. Yeah. In the current reality, we you can't. Yeah. And so anyway, that's that's that's out of the way. So Jordan, we're going to start here on November 8th. And I can't tell you how much I'm excited to talk about the present day. Alex talking about some important business. And so here is where Alex's head is

at on this day. Big exclusive news, ladies and gentlemen. I saw this last week and I thought maybe he's just taking an unplanned vacation. We're going to sit back and wait and see what happens. Then on Friday, it came out that he had reportedly gotten sick after the third Pfizer shot because he's a good little globalist and took his third round. And that's when the scientists and experts tell you that the real side effects kick in pretty much guaranteed. And we have a lot of different sources, a in Hollywood, but also in law enforcement. And they have reached out to us. Okay, I can't do the show. There's too many people in here. Go to rebroadcast. How's he doing?

Well, I guess we that doesn't sound like Alex. I guess we can't do an episode about the eight. He's just stormed out. Damn it. I was really excited to do an episode. Yeah, we were going to have a great episode about the eighth. I was expecting us to go three or four hours in fairness. Alex does come back and it turns out he's talking about Gavin Newsom. That's who he's talking about. That's the whole thing. He's talking about Gavin Newsom. Oh, my God. Alex is in a very bad mood. So it looks like everyone's going to die once again. But Alex stormed off his show. And so I am going to put him in the corner.

And I don't know what to do, Jordan. I guess, you know, what we could do. What could we do? Well, we, you know, we talked to John Ronson recently. We could, we could play that for the people. I don't think anybody would want to hear that, Dan. That doesn't sound like something interesting at all. I'm like in this eighties broadcast. I feel like the public would be interested. I don't think so, buddy. I don't think anybody's interested. Let me say this real quick. I'm glad that that went reasonably smoothly because I, as soon as I hit the theme song, I realized that I forgot to tell you pretend we're doing a regular episode. Your improv skills are fantastic. I play off what energy I'm giving. Yeah. So let's throw

it to that. We were thrilled to have a conversation with John Ronson. Indeed. About some of his experiences with Alex and various thoughts and perceptions. Could not be cooler. Could not be a cooler guy is awesome to do. Yep. So enjoy that. And we'll be back on Friday. See you then. Hey, folks, today we are thrilled to be joined. Having a little conversation with us is the author of Them Adventures with Extremists. I've heard of him before. Sure. Sure. A psychopath test. Sure. Sure. Read that one. And then also there's a new podcast that he's got out. The people should check out. Things fell apart. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you so much for joining us, John Ronson. Hello. Hey, how are you guys doing? It's such a delight to be among people

who have such an incredible depth of knowledge about Alex Jones. I like that that is being treated as a social positive. Because for me, generally, it's like this guy knows too much about Alex Jones. I got to get away from him. So it's nice that it's helpful. Yeah. But I've, you know, there's been times in my life when I've shared that obsession. So I understand. Yeah. I empathize. You had that series that from back in the early 2000s, The Secret Rulers of the World, I believe. Was that just the one episode? I can't remember. No, it was a series. I was writing a book called Them. What happened was I had this brainwave in the mid 90s. I was no secret growth in conspiracy culture and also a relationship

between conspiracy culture and extremism. Like some militant Islamists had talked to me about The Secret Room and some clansmen. And so I thought I want to do something about the rise of conspiracy theories. But then I thought, well, you know, that's a really hard thing to do because most of the time they just sit behind their computers. Yeah. They write newsletters. Right. Yeah. So how do you how do you make that interesting? And then I had a brainwave. I thought, I know they all believe that The Secret Room, from inside which there's shadowy cabala secretly ruling the world. I'll hook up with them and we'll travel the world looking for The Secret Room. And when we find it, we'll climb up the jade pipes and get in and confront

the blood-handed gurg about their covert wickedness. And then inevitably we will be disappointed when there is no actual room or the room is boring. That is right. That is like if Ponsdale Leone is like, oh, we're going to find this fucking fountain of youth on a bat or like to just be spiteful towards his buddies. Like, oh, we're going to find it. Ponsdale Leone finds a fountain that keeps you 80 years old forever. It's like, well, well, that's a fountain. Well, I remember actually when I first came up with the idea, I was at a party and I was talking to a documentary producer. And I said, like, what's your next thing? And I said, I'm going to write this book. And I told him what I just told you. And he just looks at me like annoyed, faintly annoyed.

And said, but there is no Secret Room. And I thought, God, if I'd allowed him to like, you know, get under my skin, I would never have done the journey. It was like, well, it's one of the greatest journeys of my life. Yeah. And so on one episode of that, you went with Alex Jones to Bohemian Grove. And I'm sure we'll get into that a bit. But also in one of the other episodes, you went to Bilderberg, right? You went with Jim Tucker, who's another big friend of Alex Jones's. Right. Jim Tucker. So most of these militant Islamists and Ku Klux Klansmen who were telling me about the Secret Room, they said it was called the Bilderberg group.

I kept saying this. And one of them said, and there's a guy in Washington, DC, a sports reporter who's dedicated his life to tracking down the Bilderberg group. You should contact him, his name's Big Jim Tucker. So, so I did. I went to Washington to meet Big Jim Tucker, who said, he said, yeah, you got me at a good time. My, my mole inside Bilderberg has told me. Sure. Yeah. Well, he was right. It was an accountant. He said it was an accountant for one of the people who was going to build a city. Yeah. He said, yeah, I know where they're meeting. They're meeting at the Caesar Park Hotel and Golfing Resort in Cintra, Portugal. And I'm going to go over there and get it. And I said, can I come?

And he said, yeah, so we flew to Cintra. Yeah, it's, it's, I find looking at like Jim Tucker's things that Alex has done, because he's been, he was in, I believe, end game. He wasn't end game. Yeah. They have a big piece with them going to Bilderberg. It seems like did he let you wear his hat is the only question I have for you. It's a great hat. You should have taken it. He's got 30 more. He does have a fantastic hat and his office hat definition glimes. That's perfect. So the chain smokers, you always have that light coming in through the smoke. Oh, sorry about that. Right. Sorry for interrupting your question. Yeah, it was, it's amazing that he, I'm great that he lasted so long. Honestly, between the time

that I met him in DC, the couple of months later, I was going to be in Portugal. I was just thinking, don't die. He was like, chain smoking. Drunk all the time. I don't know if it's a good thing he lasted as long as he did, considering he wrote for the spectator. And you know, like this kind of an anti-Semitic rag of a publication. So well, all of that was an undercurrent that I hadn't, but I didn't know. It was the spotlight. Yeah, right. Yeah. I didn't know that undercurrent. People have said, I must have known and I'm being so naive, but actually, when I knew I was going to go with this guy to Portugal and we were going to try and sneak into the secret meeting of the secret rulers of the world, I thought, you know what? I'm not going to

do any research. I'm just going to like go. I don't want to find out what Bilderberg is. I want to know the mystery of it. So I just went along with it. I think that's probably a better way to approach it. I think that probably gives you an ability to not bias yourself at a time with like a decision that this is stupid and the person I'm going with is a monster. Hey, let's face it. We might find this fucking secret room. Who knows? What if we did? Exactly. Yeah. The famous five don't figure it all out before they go on it. The Scooby-Doo people. That's why I was taking my inspiration. Maybe it's a ghost. Maybe it's a guy in a mask. I have a hard time not writing a screenplay right now about a journalist in a Nazi going to find gold or something like that.

That's what's going on here. But so we never ended up infiltrating the Bilderberg group because we were chased away by their henchmen. Sure. I remember that clip from that episode that was very high tension. Yeah. I'll tell you, it was a lot more high tension in the book. And then I really captured the horror of it. The footage doesn't do justice to the horror that was going on inside my head. I mean, a Jason suit. I left the Bilderberg meeting and got a Jason suit. I was being chased. Now, I was going 30 miles an hour and so was he. But I tell you, if I'd gone faster, he'd have gone faster. That's more of a tail than a chase. So yeah, I mean, if we're going to get it right, that's all. But I started. But what I don't say in the documentary, because we just

didn't capture it, but I detail in then, is I phoned the British Embassy and I said, I'm being, I'm a journalist. I'm being tailed right now by a lansier belonging to the Bilderberg group. And she went, go on. So she's at one point, she said to me, the good news is if you know you're being followed, they're probably just trying to intimidate you. And the dangerous ones are the ones you don't know if I'm following you. Yeah. And I thought, well, she's wise. I thought, hey, this is the British Embassy in Portugal, like it didn't strike me as tinker tailed soldiers. And B, I thought, what if, what if they are the dangerous ones and I just happen to be naturally good at spossing them? Like, what? Or what if the dangerous ones know that you'll think

that they're not dangerous if you know they're following you? Right. Hang out with someone like Jim Tucker will probably introduce that level of paranoia. Alright, John, your name is Terrence. You need to get to the airport in 30 seconds. You're going to be gone for a long time. Your old life is over. I'll tell you what, I was so scared. I was, I was willing to abandon the mission entirely and just drive back to England. You know what, I think I was conflating that incident that you had with Jim Tucker and the Alex getting tailed in Endgame because he got tailed in Endgame and then it ended up just being someone who was going to like Chili's. Yeah. It was not someone tailing him at all. I think I mixed those up in my memory.

Right, right, right. Do you remember a time with Alex that he was like in a hotel room and he was like freaking out and saying what the phones were about? Oh, yeah. They pulled the fire alarm. And yeah, he was reporting from Chantilly, Virginia, I believe, to one of the Bilderberg conferences. And he was, he was convinced that the globalists had pulled the fire alarm in order to spook him and get him out of his hotel room or something. Yep. And I don't, I just think someone pulled the fire alarm. I don't know. I would argue it was his crew that pulled the fire alarm because nothing was happening in the hotel room. Yeah. Otherwise, it's pretty boring visually just to be like, Jim Tucker. You know, the first time I met Alex

at his home, well, the second time, the first time I met him was at Waco and then the second time was at his home. And there was a guy doing some work on the telephone pole outside. Uh-oh. And Alex was 26 years old. It just wasn't like the Alex of today, but you're leapt out. So what are you doing? What are you doing? Who's that? Who's that you're here? Just gonna, just gonna do a real thorough interrogation of this. Just a worker. The late period Clint Eastwood character. I'll tell you, my favorite, my favorite, um, one of those incidents though, I'm jumping forward. Sure. But it was when we were meeting at Bohemian Grove and we checked into the motel the night before the Occidental Lodge and Alex

and Mike, his producer and Kelly, his, uh, his then girlfriend, his girlfriend's not yet one. He's so racist. He will only go to the Occidental Lodge. That's how racist he is. Sorry for interrupting. Sorry. Okay. So we're waiting. So we've checked in like, and we're waiting and it's getting dark and, um, and he doesn't show up. And then, and then his beds aren't slept in. And then the next morning he phones, this is like fog. And I was like, you know, so what happened? And he was like, you know, while we're traveling along these lanes and the fog rolls in, and then there's all these people just standing on the side of the road, just standing there staring at us. It's just like, it's like the fog and the winding lanes. I guess people

standing on the side of the road, just staring at them was felt like, you know, just a little jab on the sandwich. It's interesting that like that is kind of that, that to me reads as something that's been consistent, you know, like just this preoccupation with everybody is looking at him. And like, now, but nowadays it's transformed into like, he seems to believe that demons can jump into people. And so like when he's out in public, he'll see somebody and then they'll go at him. And it's a demon that has come into their body. Right. As opposed to Austin hits. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Exactly. He'll be at a grocery store and someone will be like, I love the devil. And it's because a demon has jumped inside them. That apparently only he can see or something. I don't

know. But yeah, that's that's that makes that tracks, you know, like that kind of a thinking of everything revolves around. I mean, it is just narcissism on a certain at a certain point. Yeah. I mean, it's almost like he has to become famous in order to justify believing that everybody's always staring at him. Whoa. You know, that's that's that's that's insightful. Is that deep? Did I get too deep for you, Dan? Yeah, I'm the comic relief here. Yeah. Yeah. That just reminds me of an old friend was an artist who became famous and her boyfriend once said to me no one had ever prepared so hard to be famous. Oh, wow. And that's kind of in a way. I don't know if that's true about Alex. I think Alex was just destined to be famous. So will I tell you

about how we finally met? So okay, so after the failed Builderburg infiltration. I mean, I saw a much longer story. Yes, but you did end up I'm sorry to get off track here just real fast. You did end up interviewing some people who went to Builderburg, right? I mean, like yeah, you like Jim Tucker, his whole thing is like nobody who goes there will talk to anybody. And it categorically isn't true. I mean, you interviewed some people even on film. Yeah, yeah, I interviewed one of the founding members of Builderburg, a man called Dennis Healy, Lord Healy, who became the exchequer, whatever I can remember, it's called in Britain, like the finance secretary in in the Labour government in

Britain in the 1970s. So he was like a very powerful person. And yeah, he just told me the whole thing. Like, well, I'm going to get the story that's about to unfold undercut. I mean, even even so, even if you do meet somebody who's there and he's willing to talk to you, that's still like, you can still break in. Yeah, of course, yeah, but of course, like he didn't tell me the whole thing. But he told me a lot of stuff, which I think what I meant when I said that was he told me a lot of stuff, which actually confirms some of the suspicions of the conspiracy theorists. But particularly, to say that we were striving for a one world government is exaggerated, but not totally unfair. That's what he said to me.

He said those of us, he said Builderburg was set up in the aftermath of World War Two. And it was a it was a reaction to Hitler. They thought, and this has proved to be a bad idea, that business, putting power in the hands of business was a better idea. What, the labor government in the 70s believed that giving more money to business was a good idea? So weird. Right. Well, this was back, this was like the 50s. This was nice before this happened. Yeah. So it was the idea that the stability of the world was better in the hands of Heinz and Nokia and Smith, Klein, Beecham. These are all companies that did go to Builderburg and the Washington Post companies, not politicians. Politicians were insane like Hitler. So that was

their idea, which isn't really any different to what the conspiracy theorists think in its broadest terms. Sure, sure, sure, sure. It's just so much more banal because it's really just them being like, how can we make the most money? Essentially, it's not like let's drink the children's blood. It's just that we would like to extract more money from here. Yeah, yeah, exactly. But then I asked Dennis Healy, he said that he was a very famously keen photographer. So I said, did you ever take any photographs inside Builderburg? And he said, oh, yeah, yeah, lots, lots of photographs. And I said, can I see some of them? And he looks at me and he went, no, fuck off. So I didn't, I never did get to infiltrate. When I asked him if

they were secret, he said, we're not secret, we're private. He said, no one's going to speak freely if they think they're going to be quoted by prurient journalists like you, who think you have knowledge of something that you have no knowledge of. Oh, boy. Yeah, I've heard that explanation before. The politicians are crazy. I know, right? So yeah, it was a power grab. And maybe they were idealists, too. But it was, yeah, it was a kind of globalist power grab, I guess. Tell me if you think I'm saying anything that's like too much. No, no, no, I think that there's, there is that reality. And then there's the surreality of the stories that are told about things like the distinction between like a one

world government that is basically along the lines of, you know, not not a total one world government, but an idea of international agreements and a body that is able to step in when there are crimes against humanity that a country is carrying out or something like that. That's the distinction. The real world is generally the, you know, an international body that can enforce international laws. And the fairy tale version of it, the conspiracy theories tell is one central thing that is run by Bill Clinton that seeks to crush guns. Yeah. Yeah. Well, during that long weekend, once a year, they, they plan everything out today. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And for the last 40 years, they have just been preoccupied with taking away right wing people's guns. They've

been trying to do that and can't figure out how to do it. And they choose the presidents, they choose the prime ministers. That's, that's an interesting thing. So I asked another Bilderberg person who spoke to me, I said, so what about this choosing the, the president's choosing the prime ministers? And they sort of took that as a compliment. Like, you know, we're good at spotting up and coming politicians. And the idea is to offer them what they consider to be sort of wise words of advice. One story I was told was Margaret Thatcher in like 1977, I think, all around that time, two years before she became prime minister, went to Bilderberg, was, was quiet as a mouse, didn't say anything. That evening, somebody told her that like, she's ruining a

great opportunity for networking here. The next day, she gave like a big speech. And then when she went to New York, and like everyone was wiles, and when she went to New York, like other Bilderberg people, like, you know, drove her around and introduced us to people. I mean, how like, so that's, I think the reality of Bilderberg, which is a million miles away from. Listen, Iron Lady, you're going to really need to up your evil game if you want to become prime minister. So give a fucking speech. Right. That's, you know, in the same ballpark as like a business seminar, like people who have lots of connections within, you know, things can talk to other people who have connections like, Hey, this person's pretty cool. Or, you know, that's, that's not the same

thing as, you know, being like, haha, she will rule. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. Or whatever. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. Or like a media, like a media club, like the Soho house, you know, that's, that's where those things. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that that distinction is kind of tough to draw sometimes. You know, the, the area where the themes of some of the things that conspiracy theorists say are, you know, fairly spiritually accurate in some ways, but the particulars of the narratives and the details are generally way off base. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, you think, you think of like, Oh, billionaries, evil billionaires choose the leaders of the world, but then you look at the American system and it's like, well, you can't become a,

an elected official without a lot of money behind you, at least on a high level, on a high level. Yeah. Exactly. At least on a high level. So who's giving them that money? It's a small number of people and it feels like, Oh, well, if, if they give you the most money, then they have chosen that you will be the next elected official. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. You know, it's funny. The reason I like, obviously I'm agreeing with everything that you say. And I think the reason why you had that sort of slightly more, you know, sort of hesitant response to what I said, is because, you know, you're famous in the world of, you know, like you watch fucking infowars. It's not good. You know, for me, for me, the distinction. So you're famous in that world.

Well, we started this podcast. I knew John Ronson would say you listened to too much fucking infowars. I knew it. No, but you're famous, like your brain right now is immersed in, in the irrationalities of conspiracy thinking was because I'm a little bit removed from it right now, because I've been doing a show about the history of the cultural wars, which doesn't really get into that stuff except from one episode. For me, the distinction between what the builder group actually is and what the conspiracy, you know, what that, you know, the conspiracist, the way that they fantasize it is so clear that I feel I can sort of say those things. Sure. Right. Right. You live in the real world. Yeah. I do have, I do have too many of my toes

in that, like, that Alex Jones world. That is definitely true. And I think also the distinction is that I have only been able to access a lot of these things through claims that are made, and then looking at the specifics or looking at the documents and things. Whereas you have spoken to people and you've been to these places. Yeah. And so I think you have much more of a familiarity with a lot of this than I do. This sort of reality. Yeah. And I think that allows a little bit of a easier speaking than like from my perspective. Yeah. No, I totally get it. You're right. And maybe I was a bit too glib before. Oh, no, no, no. Be as glib as you like. I don't think so. This is our show. Yeah. Yeah. But the way that you're completely immersed in Alex's world

and so on, I think it's the best thing about being a journalist. Like when you're on a story and you totally, you know, you become a world expert on that subject. You've been doing the one thing for quite a long time like what I tend to do is like I enter a world for like a year or maybe I don't know something like that. And then I move on to another one. But you've been in Alex's world for a long time. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't plan to. It was, I think I probably intended something along the lines of what you're describing, maybe like a year, year and a half. But he's just so fascinating. He's, he's a Rubik's cube of insanity and weirdness. And he always surprises. Like it's, you know, there'll be like just the other day he was talking

about how maybe, you know, if your family is pro vaccine, maybe it's time for you to kill your family. Yeah. Like, yeah. Jesus. Yeah. Just straight up. Who says stuff? Do you know what else? Do you know what else? The worst part is it's because he was in a bad mood. Yeah. He was in a bad mood. So he told you that maybe you should kill your family the next day. The next day, he's in a better mood. To be fair. It's going to be fine. To be fair. He said things happen within a family. Sure. It's a family matter. Yes. It's a family matter. I got, I got, okay. I got two questions to ask you. First, do you think like I'm not like I'm certain that his the darkness is has got deeper? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Good luck. When I knew there was a

it was a different Alex. Yeah. That's that's something we wanted to ask you a ton of questions about for sure. Sure. And it's something that jumped out to me when I rewatched the episode where you and him went to the Grove. And it's just it was shocking to see that much less dark, Alex, you know, to be reminded of that. Yeah, absolutely. That surprised me. Because at the time I was spending time with, you know, Nazis at the club. What a fun thing to say. At the time I was spending all of my days with the Nazis. We were summering together. But my point is that like coming in Alex, I mean, Alex Stone still is a long way away from the clan, but but I put him in a in a wildly different ballpark. It was like

Alex was a complete, you know, so that leads us to the second question that then maybe I should talk about. Oh, please, please. Sure. Okay. But my second question that is like at the time, like he wasn't an easy person to be around, like because he's so full on all the time. He's one of the most tireless people I've I've ever met. He seems like it might be annoying and tiring to be around. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm, you know, introverted. And I get what's the word, I get kind of said I get sensory overload. So it's not easy to be around Alex for too long. But the one but I sometimes I look back and I think, well, what positive qualities did I find in Alex? And the only one really other than the fact that what she was, I wasn't meant to be.

It's very funny. It's very funny. Of his good qualities, there is one. Yes. Right. Well, he so well, one thing I would say is that, you know, it's always it's kind of mixed up with with me in one way because our infiltration of Bohemian Grove was just one of the greatest that's my life. So it's hard to not feel fondness towards the person who you sure, sure, of course, you know, the most incredible night of your life with. But so so I do. And, you know, I've felt bad about the fact that I've had to do more critical stories about me in the last couple years. On a personal level, really, for that reason. But the other positive quality is it was this kind of archery skills. And I wonder, like a middle that like all the

mad like when you're watching it all. Did you hold on? Did you say archery skills? No. Oh, I thought for sure he said archery skills. I thought for sure. I was like, oh, he's a great bowman. Oh, no. Well, that didn't Josh Allen's in his story of the New York Times, right, about Alex going big game hunting in some somewhere. And he does. But I would oratory skills. We're we're from we're American. Sorry about that. We're terrible at the hearing words. The reason that it blew my mind that there was a possibility is that Alex is such a gun guy. I feel like he'd be offended by a bow and arrow. Aren't those things like what are they called like trust

that's closer? Oh, yeah. That's closer to a guy. I can see Alex with a crossbow. Yeah. And I agree with you 100 percent about the oratory skills. Like I think even going back to our earliest episodes, it's like a caveat that I always have to kind of remind myself is like he's very talented at a thing. And unfortunately, the thing is bad. Yeah, it's being used in a very bad way. But if you if you just take it as a ethically neutral thing, I don't know if I've ever seen anybody who has the ability to say nothing for so long with so much passion. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's true. Yeah, I remember in about in 2001, I went on that sea spout and show book notes. And we were talking about Alex Jones, who wasn't at all famous. And I said the same

thing. I said, like, he's he's as talented as Bill Hex. Like if he wasn't into such crazy stuff, he could be Bill Hex, which then had a ripple effect. Yes, this is your new show. You've got a new episode. It's about that one time you said that thing. You did it. It's your fault entirely. I don't know if I started. I don't know if I start at the Bill Hex, but I definitely I put I did to it. I want to actually ask you about that sea span interview because it's something that I've thought about quite a bit. And in that interview, you say that after going to Bohemian Grove, you told Alex that he was playing with fire because he was misrepresenting what you guys had experienced there and saying it was like this demonic thing and playing up those elements

of it, right? Yeah. And yeah, that to me, his response, you said was, I'm not going to tell the listeners that. Yes. So that indicates awareness. Right. I base my whole idea of Alex from that conversation for decades afterwards. I said, I don't know if I use words like playing with fire, but I said that you said I've heard you say things that we both know aren't true. Alex said, you know, I know that I'm not going to tell my listeners that. That seems awful. Yeah. So well, so for decades, I was asked, you know, and you can imagine I've been asked this question a lot. Like, does he mean it or is he faking it? And I always said, oh, I think he's faking it. And I would cite that example sometimes. But when I met Josh Owens, like five years ago,

who was Alex's cameraman who became the whistleblower, I said that to him. And he was just, he just looked at me baffled and said, no, Alex believes every word. I think you got it. And Josh was with has been with Alex like it was with Alex every day for years. But you got to think that probably, you know, that was back in 2000, right? When you went to Bohemian Grove and you had this conversation, I bet he was much looser lipped, you know, maybe maybe he didn't he didn't have that million dollar empire to protect. And at the same time, who knows how the years went on, convincing yourself of your own stories. Yeah, I mean, the the classic, you know, be careful what mask you wear, because it might

become your face kind of thing, you know. Yeah. And also, like I've often had the half thoughts, which I haven't completely fully realized as a thought, which is that, you know, Alex is a narcissist. And narcissists have a different relationship to truth than I think other people that people who aren't nice or people who don't have that disorder. No, I don't quite know what that means. Like, does that mean that we're judging him by the wrong criteria? We're judging him by our criteria. Like he's a fucking alien and shit. Like if he like if he gets put on trial, we can only have 12 psychopaths sitting there being like, well, yeah, of course, you kill your brother again. So you can see that guy. We saw the psychopath test.

But isn't this interesting to think about? Yes, absolutely. Like does Alex like if there if this if there's no wall between truth and lying in Alex's mind, like if lying doesn't make him feel bad, then should we be asking a different question to does he know it's the truth? And I don't quite know what that question is. But it's something along the lines of like, does Alex is is is there a state of mind where lying is such is such a not an ethical concern. And it also seems fun at times. Say that. It also seems fun at times. The lies. It's exciting. It's more fun to lie about babies getting eaten than it is to to say that the budget is going down. Like, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah. I agree. Yeah, I agree with the point you made, though, with the

the distinction between whether he knows he's lying or not, like the truth. I also think that that's probably the wrong place to look at it or to touch him by. Yeah, it's almost irrelevant because there's his truth. If it doesn't matter to him, yeah, if it doesn't matter to him, then then the truth is lies. It's just a thing. The truth is whatever matters to him, right? You know, the reason I brought up that point from the C-Span interview was that also in that interview, you talk about the what was it? The Phantom Patriot, the guy who ended up a year later going to Bilderberg with a bunch of guns as to beating. Oh, sorry. Yeah, yeah. As a result of being an Alex fan and seeing Dark Secrets, the documentary that Alex put out. And that's kind of where

I think the most interesting part is, like, whether he's telling the truth or not actively or awarely aware of what he's doing or not, he know he knew enough to know that he wasn't telling the whole story to his listeners. And he probably was aware that this guy showed up at Bohemian Grove because of his content. Like, yeah, does you think that he's aware of that, that connection? Oh, sure. He knows. He knows that he has unstable listeners. And he, well, he riles them, right? I mean, what's the famous Sandy Hook lie? Like, somebody needs, what did he say? He said a lot of things. I think somebody needs to go investigate that. That amazed, that really surprised me when I heard your podcast with the Sandy Hook lawyer

that he spoke about it hundreds of times. Yeah, he made a meal of that. The thing that comes to mind with the, someone needs to go check this out with that was also what he said about Ping Pong, the pizza gate. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, don't get me wrong. Like, all that stuff I was saying about Truth and Lime was just thinking about it from a sort of psychological perspective. Sure, sure, sure. About sort of, just sort of work out that thought process, which I can't. I'm sorry, this patch has to adhere to the Goldwater rule, so we can't allow you to do that. I've gone back and forth with Goldwalker Rogue. What is your feet? Well, we've broken it. Except we haven't, because Alex was diagnosed as such. True. Oh, that's true. I always just

wonder, like, I think the most important question for me has always been the level to which he's aware, the influence that he has that leads people to do bad things, like the Phantom Patriot or any number of other folks who have like that couple in Las Vegas who shot a cop. Yeah. I always am like curious, because I don't know. There's a guy on Death Row, right? Maybe it's, maybe it's one of the couple, but there's a guy on Death Row who I wrote to and said, can I interview you about, you know, how, if and how, because I think it's one of those stories about, you know, we think he was inspired by Alex James. So I wrote to him and talked to his lawyer, and he didn't want to talk to me. Understandable. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That connection is really interesting to me. I mean, you literally wrote the book on being publicly chained. So I don't because I think I think the feelings that one should have or one you'd expect to have is like, oh, that was bad. I shouldn't do that. I shouldn't do that. That was bad. So I went to the place I told the story about with guns. He was going to kill a bunch of old people. This is no good. I should probably, but that doesn't happen. And that's fascinating to me. Oh, yeah, yeah. No, I mean, I have not seen any evidence of of him caring about the consequences. I mean, if you know, no, no, but, you know, that's kind of why I was asking you. I was wondering you. Yeah. Well, I mean, remember with me, it was like smaller stuff. Like he was definitely lying

about about. Sure. He said that we may have witnessed. I mean, I think he did say may, but we may have witnessed an actual human sacrifice. Yeah. He said, he said he went to an expert in anatomy that said it was the size of a baby, the effigy. Right. What? Yeah. Oh, and then he said that now look, I wasn't with him the whole time. But in fact, for quite a lot of the time, I wasn't with him. But because he went, he infiltrated separately to me. As you know, I went up the drive, giving the security guard to kind of I rolled the world's waves. And I sweated fire. I sweated fire at the end. Completely unnecessarily, but amusingly. I'm going to try the front door. Okay. Goodbye. Yeah. So I wasn't with him the whole time. But he said at one, he said at one

point, we overheard these two old men, one of them said to the other one, yeah, we're going to get an elected. And I said, Alex, come on. That's what you want. And you could hear that exact statement anywhere. Like that's, you could hear that at a coffee shop. Right. Exactly. But anyway, I actually just had a thought about your guys infiltration of Bohemian Grove. Like you went in the front and Alex used a little bit of subterfuge. And I've always thought like, wow, he could have just walked in the front, but probably he couldn't. Like he probably couldn't control himself. Like he'd probably like act really weird. And I mean, he would see the security guard and be like, you better kick me out of here. Otherwise I won't have a fucking show. You better kick me out.

Yeah. Yeah, you're right. I mean, I remember it's funny. I have a lot of gaps in my memory of my life. But tell me about it. But every moment with Alex, I remember so clearly. And so I remember that moment very clearly when he decided not to walk up the drive for this. So what happened was we met Rick the lawyer. Yeah. So we met this lawyer who had infiltrated the Grove and was a very preppy man, Northern Californian guy. And he says, because Alex had, Alex had plans to rent a boat. More it. Great. I'm already in. I'm already in. Great plan. No notes. Yeah. Yeah, I get in that way. And Rick the lawyer says, if you go in that way, you're going to get yourself killed. And Alex, this is one of my favorite moments,

Alex wrote down, going in that way, that's killed. Because he was like, right. So we can read. We do know that. So the path is off the table. So Rick said, no, the way to get to Bohemia and Grove is dress preppy, go to the local Eddie Bauer, buy yourself some preppy clothes and just walk up the drive looking like you belong. And he said, and you know what, I'll come with you. I'll do it with you. So, so that was the plan. And we went to Eddie Bauer, Alex, looking like, you know, looking like Alex, I came out looking like the great captain. Well, I'm slightly exaggerate, but you know, and then him and Mike practice being treacherous. That's one of my favorite parts of your, your, your film, like they do multiple takes of Alex

talking about nanotech. And he says to Mike, because yeah, I want to know your opinion of another technology, we've been getting these micro processes down to the size of the molecule. When do you think the, I can't remember the next words, optimization process will occur. He turns to Mike and Mike said, I agree. He was not great at improv. That was, but do you know what happened to Mike? Do you know what happened to me? I know that recently he's posted a number of really old videos of Alex on YouTube, but I don't know. I don't know other than that. I assume. Quite the opposite. Oh, contrary. And when I, now look, this is a story that came from Alex,

so bear that in mind, but this one, I think has a rig of truth. And I'd like to know, I mean, there must be somebody listening to this who will be able to answer it. So Mike about his, his father died. He inherited the ranch. They struck oil on this, on this round. And now he's the richest man in his county. Wow. Great. Good things happen to good people. Yeah. That's what I was just thinking. No, I can't remember his surname. My cancer. Yeah. So he was, he was like, Alex is probably our first producer. Yeah. Yeah. He was, he was around, like, even when there's a video that he posted of Alex, like, I think even pre or maybe during the, like, the local access TV days, you know, they clearly had some long standing connection.

But like, I loved, I love the two of them because when they're doing this practicing being preppy, they're walking down like a porch. They're walking and they need to go back to where they started to do a second take. Hit your mark. Hit your marks. It's remarkable. No, you can't do a take over the other direction. It's like practicing a sorkin dialogue. I can't do a walk and talk. It was a wedding rehearsal. I said to them, I said to the black, have you got any contingency plan for if you get caught? And he said, yes, yes, we do. And I said, well, he said, if they, you know, if we get caught, I'm going to say, don't come any closer. Good, good, good. I'm going to yell boo and then run away.

I said to them, don't come any closer. That's not what I do. I do think it was wise of you to advise him not to bring a gun. That was that was smart. Oh, yeah. I have a question for you about that time. Did you ever talk to Alex about like religion or anything? Because he thinks that the people at the Bohemian Grove are literally Satan worshipers who work for the literal Christian devil. Like this isn't a metaphor. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The giant owl at Bohemian Grove has got something to do with Mbolo. Sure. The owl guards. Fools. When were you learned? He shallots. My friend Marty yells fools at me fairly regularly as a reference to that. Oh, okay. Well, I was sitting in that. I was just, I was sitting on that lawn and I was so like,

I felt sick. It's funny. Like I'm an evidently an anxious person, but there was something about being with Rick the lawyer. Like my, my wrist radar was, was up and was basically telling me that I was going to be fine because this guy, Rick looked so much like he belonged. Like he couldn't have looked more. And he'd gone in before. So he was obviously a lesser demon, right? There's no way that he wasn't. Yeah. He had to have been a, he was a Renfield, of course. Right. But, but just for, like, if people don't, don't understand, like he was, he was infiltrated, like he hadn't been invited. But he had infiltrated once before too. So it just felt completely safe. So by the time the ceremony was happening and we were like, you know, I knew that Alex, I hoped

that Alex was filming it in the hidden camera in his bag. I just was like, just sitting, I think it, this is just fucking so hilarious and not something at one point. There was a guy, there, a guy appeared in leaf covered later hoes singing like, Oh, trees. I don't think that's an Alex's film, but maybe it is. There was a little, it's been ages since I saw Alex's film, but my feeling is that dull things. Yeah, it may be. It's been a while since I've revisited it too. Yeah. So there was a, there was, in my memory, there was a, there was like a stage cush house of a giant redwoods next to the giant owl where the mock human sacrifice was about to happen. And like, there was like, and a light because it's a production light. This isn't like

a weird satanic. So there's like sparkler, sparkles shooting. Yeah. There's an orchestra. There's an orchestra. John Williams is there. Yeah. There's an orchestra. It's like, it's a show. It's like, it's like, it's like not off. It's like Broadway. It's like Broadway in the redwoods. Okay. But with this weird, I mean, it's weird. Sure. I said my vacation with all this, you know, some of Broadway is weird. I've seen Jersey boys. Yeah. So, um, yeah, when will we learn? Yes. So, yes, there was a stage and a guy comes out and laid a hose and he's covered in leaves and he does, you know, tribute to nature and the San Francisco orchestras playing. Um, apparently they have to go home at the end of the evening.

I remember someone telling me that the orchestra is not allowed to stay. They just get two drink tickets and you got to go. Yeah. I feel like I could, I feel like I could get a set at the Bohemian Grove. You could do a type five. Yeah, I could do a five. One free passage to the underground tunnel. All right. Meet the ball man. All right. You get to spend 10 minutes under the Getty and then you got to get out. Yeah. So, uh, yeah, so I was just loving it. And in fact, amazingly, like when it was over, like Rick was like, let's go. And, and, uh, I can't, I think we spent very much time with Alex at all inside there. I would. I remember, right, it's going to be a lot safer for me. Stay away. Yeah. Um, so, but I do remember Alex. I was watching the ceremony. I just think it was hilarious.

And I turned around and Alex is looking like, you know, like Satan. Yeah. And then we had, yeah. And then we had a big fight back at the hotel about what it all meant. Well, yeah. I mean, you, you had the perspective that there was a metaphor involved and, and of course, demons on the other side, which it kind of leads back to what the question you were asking, Jordan, which is like the religious, uh, zealotry that Alex demonstrates now is so like Satan, literal Satan focused, like the globalists exist here as an umbrella. And like, if you had a flow chart, it all goes up to the big guy, Satan. Right. Okay. So I subsequently did a story about Alex's teenage years for this American life. Uh, uh, one thing that came out

and that story of kids in human, he was at high school was that he was obsessed with Satan then it would be, or it'll be hail Satan this, hail Satan that. But the distinction is, was it hail Satan like rock and roll? Or was it there is a literal devil with hooves that walks around and possesses people and I must fight them. That's a good question that I don't know the answer to when I was with him. I don't remember much of that to be honest. Um, I don't remember much, if any, like religious talk, he was kind of presenting himself as somebody said to me like, you know, he's got a Korean Korean family. His sister. Yeah. Yeah. And, um, uh, Kelly, he said was Jewish and I don't know if Kelly's Jewish or not. But anyway, maybe there's some

he's, he said that she, uh, she's Jewish on his show before. It was one of those things that people would always attack him about who was always really kind of gross. Like, yeah. Yeah. People accused him of like your wife's your handler for a massage or something. You know, like all that nonsense. Well, I mean, what's the reason I pick it up is, yeah, but the reason I pick it up is that's kind of how Alex was presenting himself to me as like, you know, somebody who sort of fits in with Austin society. Yeah. Yeah. See, that's until I mentioned, I was a liberal. I remember. Okay. I was at a, yeah, I was in a car with him. And, um, and I think the word liberal means I'm a little bit confused by use of the word liberal because sometimes it's used to mean moderate and sometimes it's used to

mean progressive. True. And, um, so I at one point described myself as a liberal meaning like a sort of left leaning moderate. And Alex went nuts, you know, what? Yeah, exactly. Um, yeah. But other than that, like, yeah, he was sort of trying to present himself as a kind of, you know, regular, regular guy. Yeah. My sense of so much of his earlier career seems like that, like regular guy kind of stuff. And like, I can't remember if it was in your documentary or another one I've seen. He's talking about David Eich and he says that David Eich is like the turd in a punch bowl that like, yeah, that's in my and like, yeah, the path from that to hanging out with David Eich and saying all the same stuff as David Eich like he does now. It's, it's, that's really interesting

to me. Like that. Yeah, it is right. That control and that sort of presentation of I, I, I may or may not believe crazy stuff, but I'm going to talk to you about banks. I'm going to talk to you about communism. And that's gone now. It's just about exactly. And I'm going to talk to you about Waco and Ruby Ridge. And you're right. That's all gone. He was, he always had like the Aztec metaphor. Oh yeah. That's because they eat hearts. Yeah, exactly. It's all, that stuff was always there. But you're right. His concerns were more, you know, in that economic, new world order, globalist government overreach thing, like he bought the crazy metaphors to it. But the sphere of interest is definitely widened in the subsequent. But it seemed plausible to believe that it was a

metaphor back then. You know, yeah, yeah, that's something that I find like one of the things that I really enjoy looking at with him is the things that are different from different periods. And that like, almost everything that I see from the earlier period of his career, someone could make the argument that he's not being literal. And I would believe it. I believe that like, this is, you know, child sacrifice or whatever is still within the realm of like, all right, you're talking, you're talking metaphor here about demons. But now it's just not. You're right. I mean, that was definitely a gray area when I knew him, though, because the way he was talking about Bohemian Grove was like, maybe they actually are like,

maybe they actually are the Mayans. Maybe we really did see an actual human sacrifice. Like, I think the word maybe was always in there. But I think maybe not. Like, maybe he did say it sometimes. I could, I could see him saying maybe we saw a second, like with the adrenaline flowing through you that day. I don't know. I had one thing that I wanted to do. And that is, I wanted to tell you a few things that Alex has said about his early life. And I want to see if you think that these line up with the person that you knew when you guys went to Bohemian Grove, or things that you know. So I have a couple of things here. The first is he believes he's psychic, and that his career was preceded by prophetic dreams. Well, the only paranormal moment. Actually,

you know what? This wasn't a paranormal moment. So he was copying. It was something to do with the tape duplication that happened. We went back to Los Angeles. I can't remember. I think we worked with Alex because I just, once that was over, I just didn't want to spend. Yeah, yeah, of course. But we went back to Los Angeles and something went wrong with the tape duplication and some stuff had been erased and it was mysterious. And I remember Alex kind of was sort of veering towards, did they somehow psychically erase the tape? Or was there a magnet? Yeah, exactly. They did this somehow. So that was, I guess, that sort of veers slightly into the whole paranormal thing. But other than that, nothing I can recall. Okay, so that seems like

maybe he's beefed that up. Maybe he's added that one to his repertoire. When you went to Bohemian Grove with Alex in 2000, do you think that previous to that he had killed anybody? I had seen some firearms in his vicinity. When I went to his public access show, I remember we came out and a friend of his was coming into the parking lot and Alex said to him, this guy's from England, show him what freedom looks like. And the guy opens his coat and there's a gun. Yeah. But no, I did not believe Alex had ever murdered. Well, he like, oh, but you know but you know, I do think I have an answer to that. I think he was talking, I think he was extrapolating talking about Jared, the guy who I tell the story. In this American life.

Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised. Like he beat Jared so badly, Jared was permanently injured. I don't think it's, you know, knowing Alex is a pronus to exaggeration. Maybe that became ideal to go. That was kind of my theory for a bit. But then he tells a story about how he's like stomped someone's guts out and watched them die slowly. And so I feel like that doesn't quite match up with that other. But I mean, it could be even further exaggeration, possibly. But you know what, you know what, Alex is demonstrably prone to extreme violence. Like what he did to Jared was like extremely violent. I have another question. Based upon, by the way, they beat the shit out of him in revenge like a little bit later.

If people want to hear that full story that this American life, it's called The Jabberwocky, is the name of the episode? Yeah. I think if you put in Alex in Wonderland and this American life, you'll find it. Yeah, it's a fantastic piece. The whole episode is called Beware the Jabberwocky. And the first two stories, the first story is Lenny Posner talking about, you know, the hounding. And then the second half is me doing a story about Alex's teenage years. Yeah. Right. As far as the teenage years goes, one of the most interesting things now, I think, is how much Alex's dad has become a part of the mythology. Like his dad is the CIA dentist who talks to all these lieutenant colonels and who gets all this information that he can then pass on

to Alex. And he was the smartest kid in Texas. And he was the smartest, he was recruited by the FBI for UT. Dr. Irwin Spear tried to get him into the globalist program because he was the smartest boy in Texas. Right. But his dad said, no, this is evil. I will not. And then he told Alex all this stuff over the, or actually he told someone else about it and Alex overheard it at the dinner table. This is lore. Does his dad work at Infowars? He was the human resource director for a while. When Rob Jacobson had quit or got fired, when he put that EEOC complaint in, and Alex's dad was the human resources director who replied to that or was quoted in press about it. But I don't know if he has an experience in human resources. It seems like a strange hire.

Yeah. Yes. Yeah. So I visited Infowars in 2016. And yeah, there's not that much to say about it. It was a, it was in like a kind of lock up, like in a business park. Yeah, we've been outside the studio before. We've never gone in, but we've gone to the building, sort of as a pilgrimage. My parents live in Austin. So it's, you know, we've used that as an excuse to go and like, I was really underwhelming being, I thought I would feel something being outside the studio. I didn't feel anything. Yeah. It's funny, Joe Rogan's old place. It was like, I think, I think it's obviously his move now, but his old place had a similar vibe. It was like from the outside, you didn't know the magic that occurs within.

That's probably for the best. I mean, you don't want to put a neon sign up. There's crazy conversations happen here in the middle of destroying the world. Yeah. Anyways, the question I think you were getting at is, did you ever meet Alex's dad? No. Okay. No, I didn't. It's a, it's something interesting. I always want to try and unravel because my sense of it in the real world is just like, his dad was a John Bircher from way back. And then all the rest of the stories are basically embellishments. That's kind of what I think. But I don't know. I always like talking with people who have some interest in this stuff that I'm very interested

in because it's not too common in my, let's say, personal life to have people who are willing to have an hour-long conversation about something like this. A lot of times, these topics are kind of dark or uncomfortable and people veer away from that a lot. So I actually had another question I wanted to get to. In preparation for this, like I said, I rewatched the episode of The Secret Rulers and one thing really stuck out to me is kind of chilling. And that was at the end of the piece. Alex is driving and he's talking normally and then he switches into performance mode. Does he do that a lot? You know, that was the one time that I could have called that I wasn't there. It was just Alex and my cameraman, David Barker. So I didn't know until I watched the

rushes that he'd done that. Yeah, David goes in really close and Alex is doing this performance of like an English sort of chewing on a tooth. Humanity is great! Does he do that often? Well, I was surprised. My overwhelming sensation of thinking about being with Alex is his tirelessness. Like it's, I don't know anyone who's as tireless as he is. When I went to visit him info was in 2016. Like by the time he let me go, like 10 hours later or something, I was like, you know, he's getting me to like film shit with him and stuff like that, which you can imagine I really didn't want to do. But I wanted to interview him and how could I not agree to that. I was so exhausted. I was like an empty husk. I was like crawling along the Austin

River. What if it's called back to the hotel and Alex and then you find out Alex did four hours. Yeah, exactly. And he's phoning me and like he's being incredibly automated. Like he never slows down. Some of that might be drugs, but or his supplement. But also also back in his early days, like that work ethic is insane. Like the amount of work he had to put into, you know, doing doing his show, those documentaries back in the VHS days, you know, that is not easy stuff to self edit. I tell you what, he didn't put very much time into certainly with dark secrets inside Bohemian Grove, his Bohemian Grove film was editing Jesus, he spends enough time. He spends as much time in the baggage carousel, San Francisco airport, as he does sneak into Bohemian Grove.

I did think this is something that doesn't know what's interesting and what's not interesting. That one might have been rushed to that one. You got to hit that one out to the people. I know how many times have we seen him do a prerecorded thing and have so many mistakes in it? It's like you can do to take you can do to. True. Yeah, I yeah, maybe I'm giving him too much credit for the editing thing because now that I think about it, a number of his documentaries are just him sitting at a desk. No, but no, his work ethic is incredible. Even back then, even in the nineties, it was like I need after you've been with Alex a couple of hours, you need to lie down in your time with him. Did he ever say like, oh, you have a point? You know what I'm

saying? Did he ever did he ever even meet you halfway towards like, OK, I can see where you're coming. Well, that line on the telephone when I accused him of lying about something and he admitted it. That was a moment like that. Sure. Yeah, but that is you're lying. Well, you're not wrong. You're not wrong. But the big confrontation between us was about the meaning of the owl ceremony at Bohemian Grove. Sure. And he was refusing. I was outnumbered because Mike Hudson was sure. There were owls everywhere. I remember the woods. There are too many fucking owls here. You know what, I once said this to me, corrected me. But what I do remember being at Bohemian Grove and me and Rick were exploring

was going into like little wooden booths and there were stuffed owls, like owls in in cabinets. So I assumed the place was an owl sanctuary and that was the reason for the giant owl. But I said that once and somebody said that wasn't true. Do you know anything about that? I'm not entirely. No, I didn't heard that. I kind of always just assumed it was because Athena, the owl is her symbol of the goddess of wisdom. Like I kind of just assumed that that was the connection. Sort of a classical thing. So the stuffed owls were just like a wildlife coincidence. Yeah. I don't know. I want to try and do a live podcast at Bohemian Grove, but I don't think it's ever going to happen. And I don't know too much about the place other than what I've seen externally.

It's never really interested me too much. I mean, I've always wanted to perform a human sacrifice in the middle of our show. That would be fun. There's stories about Bohemian Grove in the old and days. The most interesting story about Bohemian Grove that I can remember is the part of the Manhattan Project was planned there, or the people who wanted to do the Manhattan Project, Oppenheimer, I guess, gave a speech to get support. So there's a connection between Bohemian Grove and the. I could see I could see Jack Parsons being at Bohemian Grove very easily. That is when famously called it the faggiest place he'd ever been to or something along those lines. Yeah. That was that. It was on that tape. Yeah, that was great.

Good work. So there are those. There are those sort of really interesting connections, but but I don't do we don't. I don't know. Do we have confirmation that Oppenheimer started the Manhattan Project there? Or is that just lore? You know, without looking it up, I can't answer that. But my feeling is that there is some documented evidence of that. But I can't say for sure. I can't say for sure. Well, it is interesting. I could kind of believe it almost as like a shark tank. You know, like Bohemian Grove is like a shark tank. That's a great place to the powerful. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And pitch your ideas about the power. They have these things for the Lakeside Talks, which I guess I like Ted Talks. But they're like seven. Yeah.

It's like a trade show for for billionaires to do. Yeah, to sell there. Like give either with some sort of inspirational talk or sell the project that you try to do to the power of people. Yeah. Like most things, it's actually really boring. I just remembered one thing that stuck out to me too from it. Alex's obsession with old people peeing on the street. There was a lot of peeing. There was. Yeah. All these old men peeing on the trees. That happened. But I feel like, I feel like that's not weird. I've been to like bonfires in the woods. Okay. I think again, this is something I can't remember whether I know for certain or whether I imagined. But I think it's just true that there is a sort of that is a bohemian growth thing. It's about these guys.

It's like a sort of I really there's a kind of I this is sort of mini look. I've never set this out loud. Maybe I'll be proven. Maybe this isn't true. But I think look, if you think about this ceremony, the cremation of care, okay, what it's all about is we are burdened with all the troubles of the world when we're in the marketplace. We're very powerful men for this two week vacation. We're going to burn up our troubles and then all the troubles go falls. He will not be able to burn me. I will. I will be back when you return to the marketplace. Will you not find me waiting as evolved falls to dream you conquer care. So anyway, so they do. They throw them in the bonfire. But if care is now conquered, does this kind of slightly iron John type thing come over when

they all get really drunk and piss all over the place? Like that's not that doesn't seem impossible to me. No, no, I see. I see it as just one of the guys who made the whole thing. They're a bunch of old dudes. There's some prostate problems. He doesn't want to tell everybody. It's part of the ritual. You know what I did say when I was there, I did they've been like a drag show the night before. And like all these, you know, men were wearing these sort of, you know, oversized, you know, sort of misogynistic kind of speed makeup stuff. Because it's all men. I think there's an argument that premium growth has not a massive amount of back in alia, but a little bit of this is a place where you can cut loose and do things like not in a massive way, but in a little bit

of a way. I hate to go back to the pissing, but I may I may need to just for the sake of like it's still it seems like a side thing of the ritual of like letting go of care, you know, like it's one of the manifestations of letting go. It's not like, Hey, look, rule number three is we piss but the reason that this sticks in my mind and it's because every time Alex talks about the elites mistreating us, he not every time, but very regularly he'll say they piss on us. Right. And it's going back in and watching that and it sticks out in his head so much that these people were peeing on a street. It seems like a preoccupation of his this piss. That's interesting. I don't know. I think that peeing is probably more of a thing of behaving gross than you do. I

don't think it's like the main thing, but you know, you've got a lot of educated world business. Maybe somebody can obviously answer. Now I'm dreaming that it is the main thing. Yeah. And a bunch of old rich dudes were just like, I'm sick of urine. Yeah, I must be free to pee. Well, I'm willing to accept that it's more of a thing than I than I realized. But maybe, you know, I'm willing to accept that it's not. So whichever way this goes, I think we're both fine. One other question I had was what was your experience of seeing like Alex become that like like joining up with Trump? Like when he when he became a Trump fan and all that. Did that seem as weird to you as it did to me? Oh, yeah.

Like it was, I thought it was just the worst idea. I thought like of all the people I've interviewed over the years, like if you'd said to me, one of these people is going to have the ear of a president. I would definitely have thought, I hope it's not Alex. And you've hung out with Nazis. Well, I hope it's not the Nazis either. You know, I've also hung out with some inspirational people over the years. But yeah, so it came as a total shock, actually. Yeah. But even taking the proximity to power piece of it aside, like one of the things that I've always thought about Alex is like, he was a Ron Paul guy for for many years, you know, like, and that's a really fun thing to do because Ron Paul is never going to win. It's never going to be an option for you to be the person

who's alongside the elected president. You know, and I wonder if the getting involved with Trump was because it seemed like this is an impossibility. Yeah. And then it's sort of backfire. Well, I can speak a little to that. I don't know the person somebody told me somebody was with Alex on election night 2016. I don't know if he's ever told the story publicly or not. So I so he probably has but I shouldn't name him just in case he wouldn't want to be named. Sure. But he told me that he was watching Alex as the results were coming in. And when it was looking more and more likely that Trump was going to be elected, Alex was looking more and more worried, like upset, overwhelmed, like he didn't like his like his very first instinct was I mean, who knows?

Oh, no, this isn't good. Like, right. Like, I've made a very bad choice. Yeah. And he was drunk. And it was like the culmination of like a 52 hour marathon. Yeah. It was a disaster. Did you watch it? Yeah, I do. Yeah, I did. Actually, I did watch election night live. And it was it was kind of heartbreaking. For the reason that like, it's like Owen Schreuer, Alex Jones, Roger Stone of the drinking champagne. And what they were doing instead of celebrating Trump's win really, was they were watching video streams of Hillary events, where people were crying. And like it was multicultural groups of folks crying, and then just a bunch of white people laughing and drinking champagne. And just the the sort of juxtaposition of those images is something that's

never really left my mind. Make sure to start fires. Yeah. Yeah, it's it was it seemed really ugly. Yeah. Yeah, that's hard. Which you know, that that tracks with the because they didn't enjoy Trump's win. They had they didn't want Trump to win. They enjoyed the win in so much as it created a laugh. It tracks with the story that he just told about Alex getting increasingly nervous is because whenever they, you know, later on when they're celebrating, they can't just be like, hooray, Trump won. They have to fixate on something that they actually like, which is the tears of multicultural groups. Yeah. God, God, that's so depressing. Yeah. And and it would have been a cash bonanza if Hillary had won. Yeah, that would have been so perfect for the best thing in the

world. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was a shame to see Alex like turn the way that he did. I remember we had one when Alex was like, you know, why did you like in my more recent stories that were that was sort of critical? Alex was like, we know, why did you do that? I feel like you turned on me. And I sort of said to him, like, I was really the stuff he says about DACA and, you know, I just it's so it's kind of so upsetting to me. Like he, you know, I give college talks quite a lot because the books I've written, I've met a lot of DACA people and I mean, what has I'm saying all of this, like, what stuff would Alex say about DACA? Oh, boy. Oh, man, get rid of it. I mean, it's part of the globalist plot to replace all white men with people who will always vote

Democrat. Well, that's that's just like, yeah, that's a standard. All immigration. Yeah, that's standard. Yeah, related issues. Yeah, no, yeah, I met a bunch of DACA kids like at different colleges that I gave talks. I remember this kid told me that she like got the bus. This was like in the valley and she lived in the other side of Los Angeles. It's like a she's on the bus for six hours a day. So she could not go to this college. And then there's Alex, you know, say go to that shit. And I think I think that's kind of the reason why I needed to do so. And he was like, you know, why did you do those stories? And yeah, yeah, man, the amount of disgusting shit he said in the intervening time period between Billy me and Grove and that is more than enough to justify

whatever consequences may come. Yeah, yeah. And I also remember him talking about you turning on him on his show. Yeah, exactly. Like I got like one email, imagine like if that had happened before his deep platform, I got a lot more emails. So what what would he say? I'm not sure if he ever said he's like called you out by name, but there was stuff about like journalist who lures you in with soft speaking and like stabbed him in the back. It was, you know, one of his petty grievance kind of discussions. Yeah. I always enjoy getting to tell people that Alex has talked about them in a particular way. This is maybe the fourth person. We've got a lot of them. Which again, loops back to that I watched too much of this this garbage.

I know it's happened once or twice. I've had like a couple of emails people saying Alex is really going off on you now. But you know, why he's got like every right to do that and be because he's being de-platformed. It's impacting my life very much. Sure. I mean, you just heard about some of it here. I mean, it clearly didn't impact you at all. It didn't. Several years later. And of course, Alex's got to be right to do it. Sure. The very first time I met Alex, when it when he was at me building David Gresh's church at Waco, he was with Bo Grites, who at the time was a big militia ex-army. The rumor about him was that he had he had inspired the character of Rambo. And he was like, sure, which I'm sure isn't why I'm not actually. So yeah. So Alex was like

cheating with all of that sort of strange nexus of the military and conspiratorial belief that's not unlike the stuff I wrote about in the Ministry of Goats. Yeah. He would later turn on Bo Grites. Alex definitely does not like that. A little bit later on. I think that there was a strong suspicion among a lot of people in the Patriot community that Bo was a fed or something along those lines. He fell out of favor with a lot of the folks. Oh, I didn't know any of that. The other guy who I met that day was Jack McGlan from Police Against the New World Order. Did you ever come across? Yeah, he's been on Alex's show quite a bit. Yeah, he's a fairly regular guest. He and Bo Grites were the two people who talked Randy Weaver and his family out of the house during

the standoff. Oh, wow. I didn't realize that Jack was one of them. Yeah. That's nuts. So that's how I all that's how I first met Alex was that I was making a documentary about Randy Weaver. What part of my book, part of them was telling the Randy Weaver story. And Randy Weaver had said to me that he'd never been to Waco. And then we did some research and it turned out that some local radio guy was rebuilding David Gresh's church. And so we went on the road trip to Waco. And as we drove in, like Randy Weaver, I'm sure you listeners will know, like this tough Aryan nations former, you know, honestly, when he saw Alex, he was like, he was like a, he was like a teenager. And I realized that there was this guy in Texan Austin, who was really famous in like malicious

circles and white separatist circles and people who use a lot of shortwave. Right. And really famous in like Austin hipster circles, because I went into a cost, I went into like a tuxedo store with him one time and the guy in the store recognized him. So he definitely who and who clearly wasn't who clearly was listening to Alex in the same way that you guys listen to Alex. So even back at the age of 26, he was like really famous in these like small circles. But I never like, I never knew that he would have such money and power or proximity to power. But I always knew that he was going to be like the biggest conspiracy broadcaster in America. Wow. Yeah. That I can totally see how you would get that impression. But it's amazing to hear that.

Yeah. That that was your I was I was really thinking like what were you were you aware like at the time? I mean, obviously, you weren't like, Hey, I'm meeting the end of democracy. But you're you were you got the sense that this guy is. Oh, yeah. No, no question. There's no question. Yeah. I mean, no, I have no doubt. I could never do what he does. Like the words flow got, you know, his his his presumably improvised monologues. Like does he how you know the opposite this month? Like how often does he repeat himself? Like how like I repeat always. That's a disappointment. I was hoping I think a lot of people who don't know like who just know from clips and stuff and don't listen to his actual show probably get the sense that

like this guy's bouncing off the wall saying all kinds of he does repeat himself a bit. And it's it's kind of the show was quite monotonous at times. But he has the ability to make it feel kind of new, right? You know, like he he sells the feeling kind of of of of excitement when he can. And then sometimes he can't and he storms out of the studio. Well, at the time, like there was no I mean, there was no competition. Like the conspiracy VHS is with these really boring people sitting in public acts, you know, with a big blow up of the eye on the top of the dollar bill. Like yeah, yeah, yeah. The the the only like David Ike was good was was sort of entertaining on stage, but no one near as entertaining as Alex. Like David and David, David Ike isn't isn't a ball

of charisma. No, he's not. He's not like what he says. That's one way of putting it. The listen theory is like a lot of fun to talk about and think about. But you about David Ike would do these incredibly long like six, eight hour lectures, which would not. Could you imagine being there for that long? Oh, my God. Just got a laser pointer out. Oh, man. One time riveting. I was filming him in Froome in Somerset. And we start we filmed him at the beginning. This is David Ike. And so we filmed like an hour or something. And then we thought let's go and get dinner. So we like drove right into the countryside to this lovely country in and had like a lovely dinner as 10 o'clock at night. But I met some people I hadn't seen in years, had a big chat,

drank, decided to go back for like, you know, maybe see if we can get the final applause. And just when we got back, David Ike was like, so I'm just going to take a 15 minute break and we'll be back for part two. So you made it back just in time for introduction. All right. So wait, where was I? I'm going to have to start it from the top. So Art Bell, I think was good. It's like you could listen to him. But wasn't he was he was a little less off the farm than than some of these other someone like Alex or or David. But you would humor those people, though, you'd have David Ike.

Yeah, you're right. So actually, there was no one quite like Alex Jones. There was a there was these like mythological figures like that guy who wrote Behold a Pale Horse. What's his name? Bill Cooper. Yeah. But Alex. But looking back now, it was clear that the conspiracy world was just waiting for some kind of charismatic person that could all actually. Yeah. We we've covered a couple episodes of Bill Cooper's show, The Hour of the Time. And I've listened to a number more of them. And it's what's really interesting is is that that he he also lacks a lot of that excitement that Alex brings to the table. And so it's even within the documentary conspiracy world, the radio conspiracy world. Yeah, it was it was a vacuum that nature abhorred.

Alex Trunk just flew it. Yeah. And people one of the things I was going to say people just like desperate for it. Like, it wasn't like I'll listen to Alex Jones or someone else. It was like Alex was like streets ahead of everyone else in terms of being entertaining. Yeah. And I think that's one of the problems with the present day is that now that there aren't those in impediments to being your own content producer, there are so many other people who have maybe flashy production or, you know, the ability to produce something quicker maybe to get a conspiracy theory out. And it kind of creates a competition in the marketplace of bad ideas that wasn't there before. But yes, it answers that question. I knew that Alex was was on the up.

Yeah. Yeah. One thought I had is here, you know, like, you know, when even back then, he's going to be huge or he's going to be a thing. I have a conviction that I think that there will never be another person like him. Yeah. Do you have a feeling about that? Like, I don't think anyone could do what he's done. I mean, the whole isn't there anymore, you know, true. Yeah. But even after he's gone, I don't think anyone could replace him. Sure. Because you have the other big voices. I mean, obviously, Paul Joseph Watson doesn't have that level of, you know, no, I can't think of anyone who's equitable. And Paul is as bad as Paul is. He seems to have some restraint. Like, if you if you look at these

Sandy Hook stuff, like he was a voice who is saying, stop it, cut this out. I heard you saying in that episode with the lawyer, I thought I was really pleased to hear that. Yeah, there I wouldn't believe that just based on people talking because they're all liars. Yeah. But there's actual emails from back then where Paul was trying to get them to. And I think I think that with with that, that governor on him, you know, like not letting himself do these horrible things, right? I don't know if he could do what Alex does. Yeah. I mean, to a certain extent, it's almost like you have to now that you have seen Alex, then, you know, the Faustian bargain of like removing all governors, removing everything that

would, you know, inhibit you. And that is going to lead to where we are now, you know, like there's so you already know how it's going to end if you choose to be Alex Jones, which is a fascinating thing for me. Some people will take that bargain, but they just don't have the chops. Yeah. Well, see, there you go. Speaking of things ending, maybe I should go now. Speaking of things ending, bye. Goodbye. Fuck off. I'm done. It's been an absolute delight to talk to you. Fantastic. The idea when we started this show that this would ever be something, a conversation we would have is it's it's baffled to me like it wasn't even close to something we thought was possible. Well, I can't tell you the number of people who tweeted me like when you what if you tweeted me to say

to want to be a guest on the show. And the number of people who like tweeted to say you've got to do this. This is a great show. People were DMing me like people really big. Whoa. Like big. We did not know that. Yeah. Big journalists in this field were DMing me and saying I can vouch these guys are great. Oh, wow. You got a great reputation. If you're not a journalist known in the field, stay out of John's DMs. Please, please don't harass anybody. You got a great reputation. What did John say to Alex that day? We'll be talking a lot. I think we're going to be very happy with me. Your track record is amazing. Your track record is amazing. Yep. Okay. Well, thanks, you guys. Thank you so much. Thank you. Yeah. People can check out your new

podcast. It's on iTunes and everything. All the places things fell apart. It's not on all the places. I think it's only on the BBC and Apple podcasts. Right now. This better right now for the next couple of months. It's only on Apple podcasts in the United States and BBC sounds in the United Kingdom. But in three months time, it's going to be like available if you were, but you can listen to it now on Apple podcasts. And episode seven connects to Alex. Alex makes a very brief cameo. Very cool. We're excited. Hopefully it's loud and in Cohera. Andy and Kansas. You're on the air. Thanks for holding. Well, Alex, I'm a first time caller. I'm a huge fan. I love your work. I love you.