Knowledge Fight - #803: Mark Bankston, Tapestry King

Episode Date: May 3, 2023

Today, Dan and Jordan check in with Mark Bankston, lead attorney for the Sandy Hook plaintiffs in the Texas litigations. In this installment, the gents get an update on various legal issues related to Alex including sanctions against his lawyer, thoughts about the bankruptcy, and Alex's bizarre retraction/apology video regarding Scarlett Lewis.  Also, there's lizard news.

i'm sick of the posing as if they're the good guys saying we are the bad guys knowledge Respect for knowledge fight knowledge fight. I'm sick of them posing as if they're the good guys saying we are the bad guys Knowledge fight Dan and George knowledge fight Need money And you stop it Andy and can Andy and Kansas It's time to pray Andy and Kansas you're on the air. Thanks for holding Knowledge fight Knowledge fight calm

I love you Everybody welcome back to knowledge fight. I'm Dan I'm George workable dudes like to sit around worship at the altar of Celine and talk a little bit about Alex Joe Oh, indeed. We are Dan Jordan Dan Jordan for you buddy. What's up? What's your right spot today? My bright spot today? Jordan is I just came from a little bit of a Hello an old friend of mine excellent someone I started stand up with back in Columbia, Missouri Who also moved to Chicago and we had some good times here now? It's moved away, but he was visiting and I got to see him while he was in town

That's my buddy Daniel Shar shout out to him. That's wonderful delightful time Yeah, my my bright spot is the new album by Jesse were dropped. Okay, uh, yeah That is a Jesse smell it. No, no, yeah, that'd be a great album, but it turns out is written by somebody else. Okay. Uh, All right. Uh, no, no, it's it's it's really good. It's I swear to you It doesn't like change anything about music, but it's the greatest episode of Soul Train You've ever watched. Okay. It is what the album is everywhere. It does everything from doo-wop to straight up There's a there's a baseline from discovery. What's that punk discovery? It's all in there, man. Disco disco disco. What if I've seen every episode of Soul Train by well, then you'll find that

There's a better one. Okay So Jordan today we have a fun thing to do you had a wonderful interview that we had for Monday's episode Yeah, thank you very much to Sean. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and I I know that We're having another interview today and it's it's perfect timing really cuz Alex has been out of studio. He's been There's there's not stuff to cover. I'm not gonna do an Owen episode and hell no You know, we don't want to get too bullish on the 2004 episodes don't have like three of them in a row. We're not really stay the same track guys We did like to do something different all the time like to mix it up mix it up

And so today we are very thrilled to have with us once again the tapestry king himself He's sitting in front of the tapestry. Yes, the lead attorney for the plaintiffs in the Sandy Hook case for in Texas Mark Bankston Welcome back It's good to talk to all the the wonks out there again. I'm sure they're thrilled to to hear from you I'm sorry to label you the tapestry king, but I have tapestry on the mind. Oh, yeah No, no, I'm always in front of a new one. It's not the pink fluid one today But this this beautiful

Abstractish mountain scene Hold on now. You just opened up a whole can of worms. You're in always in front of a new tapestry. Yeah That's the weirdest thing I've ever heard anyone say no What is this Indiana Jones in the last crusade? I Was wrong I Just got a new one myself because I have behind me I have a closet and the closet door is mirrors and I don't like that

So I have I just got a new thing to put up over the mirrors, but I haven't hung it yet. So anyway, it's fresh on the mind Anyway His main problem with the mirrors is he was a reflection Talking about home furnishings rest the episode I got all sorts of things talking about that. I want to talk decor So what's new man, what's been Good stuff is going on. I don't know if the world's been really good in the wake everything that happened last year Got some exciting cases going on. I just started working on a

A Really a police shooting case that that really makes me feel honored to have it Where you know, it's one of those issues how You know, no matter how much you press and how much you do in the streets or how much you try to do in the voting booth Like you just can't seem to change it. They're just police are killing people at a ridiculous rate and under ridiculous circumstances and and the only thing that seems to be able to be changing some of these Cities behavior and how they're running the police departments are managing or training them is is large lawsuit liability Right. So which side of the case are you on this time? Oh, yeah, that's funny, Jordan

I'm sure a lot of people are listening and they're like wait Alex became a cop and shot somebody That's that's adorable. It's like yeah, I think I think everybody knows who I would be representing in that situation and Yeah, no, it's it's it's a really nasty case. Um, hopefully I'll be having we'll be Announcing a lawsuit on it soon. So you'll probably see me in the news for that But yeah, we've been having some other really good stuff going on We were able to really take some some good time off there towards the end of the year Which I desperately needed because I was overworked on on so many other cases including the Alex Jones thing

But yeah, we're popping back into the swing of things right now Spring's in the air just got my kid new we got a pair of new mini dirt bikes We're gonna be riding around garden to coming in, you know, it's just Couldn't be better Snows of yesteryear I think I started this interview wrong by talking about tapestries Yeah, because there were two dirt bikes and gardens and I'm like, well, yeah ratio elder kind of territory

What do you what do you what are you planting you guys? Oh, it's definitely am yeah, so so I have like gosh Okay, you'll make me nerd out because I know people like to hear about this kind of stuff But I have what is basically a semi skyrim themed garden like it's a wizards garden with dragon statuary and You know, like like there's Viking shield like Skyrim style Viking shield up there like so like just this magical place for my kid to be And hide like cheese wheels around for him Okay, so like if you're really I know y'all are skyrim people so like like it's kind of based upon how when you wandered around in Skyrim and you'd find like this weird like necromancers altar where there would be like these flower gardens growing and it would be these Beautiful moonlit places with like and there's crystals laid out. I mean, so we got a corpse

Yeah, yeah, so we've got skulls. Yeah, there's just like a skull there So yeah, we have we have a skull with with Nordic runes runed into it like lying in the garden bed And like it's it's all to give it that kind of feel like a legit dragon statue the whole the whole nine yards I don't know if you heard this but Jordan thought that Ebony was actually a rock totally 100% 100% it's entirely Skyrim's fault. I've never experienced Ebony in the wild Mm-hmm. I've only experienced in Skyrim and if you can turn it into armor. It's not wood Yeah That's shitty armor. Yep, Jordan got raked over

insulted by it Here in Houston so so, you know, it's all peas and beans alternating not on cycles chili peppers shit like that But sure. Yeah, my son's getting into it Yeah, we're having a good time. That's some that's some good family business right there. That's that's some fun times So in that case in that case now that we've done gardening, I feel like it's time to get an update on how are the pets Oh, don't even get started on the damn pets. Oh gosh, we got a new addition to the family. I'm so excited about this. Oh Yeah Know that we have a Staffordshire terrier and we've got a little three-legged terrier and then we've got

Two different crested geckos houseful fish, but we just added a giant blue tongue skink to the mix And that sucker is so much fun. I'm talking this guy's like a little sausage with arms as big as my arm Oh, wow, that's a big skink. Yeah, he's he's down. He's a good foot and a half two feet long Big big big honking chungus of a lizard. I used to chase those around Back when I lived in Hawaii, but they were a bit smaller the ones that I I was experienced Yeah, no, it's a full blown Australian variety right here This is right is some some little bohemian lady up in New York just sits in her sits out in her country state and breathes These by the hundreds Wow, and and yeah, mailed me down a skink to join the family

So yeah, we're adding to the the zoom menagerie I appreciate that both of you are more well-traveled than me in the in the Midwest I just assumed that skink is some sort of a racial slur of some sort It's kind of sound that right sounds wrong. It sounds wrong. It does. It does. It doesn't sound comfortable No, it's uncomfortable word. It's it's poorly chosen and whoever named them should change it Yeah, I was I was down in Florida to give us talk about Alex Jones And I when I was walking down a path a lizard ran by me and I had just I was triggered I just went back to my place as a child and I was like, I love I love them lizards back to the secret garden there

So I'm jealous. I'm jealous of your your lizard friend, but that's awesome. I'm glad the glad to hear about your Your mini zoo. Yeah, the burgeoning zoo. All right. Well now that we've handled pets I suppose now is the best time to get into What's been going on with the Alex Jones trial situation? God damn it, Dan Oh, you were trying you're supposed to come in with another bit I thought that we had reached the end of that man, and I thought you were gonna use your new newly flexed interview skills Mark you're here We're having this like marital fight

Jordan's been doing some interviews and so now that we're we're now sort of in a in a conversation interview setting. Sure. Sure. Sure. No, no Absolutely mark mark. Let me ask you a question How's the wife doing doing good? She's fantastic, man. I can't even yeah She's a proscuting colluders doing what she likes to do. Oh, no shit. You're I didn't know no I did not know that your wife is also a lawyer. Tell me about this If I've really talked about this on the show, my wife is like a professional captain planet. That's like what she does Okay, the goes after polluters and those who would want to I mean a lot of her cases right now She works for for Harris County for City of Houston County

and and what she mainly goes after is water pollution and air pollution and It's it's strange because Most 99% of prosecutors you'll meet are people who go prosecute individuals for you know, like it's it's the state versus an individual and and there's very few forums where like there's actually just a little bit of corporate accountability and Thankfully environmental justice kind of is one. So, yeah, she's she's she's captain planet. She rules. I've got a I've got to say if she's actually Captain planet that that means her paralegals are all children, right? I mean Yeah, an international baccalaureate group of kids with rings Yeah, yeah, yeah, and then when you bring up that she's a professional captain planet

I have to then reconsider my relationship with the childhood version and I realized that the original captain planet amateur That's an indentured servant basically and able to to make agency choices on his own Realistically, it's fiber of an elemental. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's fucked up I thought it was funny that that my wife is a public servant And you thought she had a paralegal like the idea that you didn't pay for that. Oh, no That's that's kind of luxury only a private buccaneer like me and Joyce. Ah, I see. I see. All right, Mark So you have a you have Allowed us to annoy you for about as long as

Yeah Any reasonable human being could The tangent itself is a bit and therefore, yes One of the problems is we're recording a little bit late. So we're a little we're a little slap happy Yeah, we're a little loopy But yeah, that's what we can get in line we can focus discuss I've spent the last six months in that state of mind. So, you know, that's In that time after the case. Oh gosh, ever since I walked out of that courtroom, I've just been ridiculous

You know what I mean? Like nothing can bother me. Like, I don't know like You get the feeling of like You accomplish something that you set out to accomplish for so long, right? Like that's already one of the feelings of it But you do it in this like really public way that you was way more public than you even dreamed of it being and you know It was going to be extremely public. Sure. Yeah, and and coming off of that like yeah, you just Feel and and again, you had your baby you I mean you could not live more of a fairytale moments in a movie Right? That's what I mean about it, right? It's not even just like oh you the trial turned out a certain way or a certain thing turned out It's a way it turned out a certain way in also a certain like two and a half minutes

That was uniquely consumable by the entire planet and like I don't know. It's a little weird Like it took me it was a while getting used to that idea But now it just makes it like you're just coasting through it like What a lot of I know your fans keep up with the hearings that we've been having and we've been having some post-trial hearings We should definitely talk about that But but what I find funny about it is they know me from those hearings But if they saw me in other hearings right now like I am the most relaxed laid-back dude in the world because like I'm not dealing With the bullshit that I've been dealing with it so much in this case like I'm the

With I used to be such an aggressive young attorney and now with so many other attorneys I'm like they'll pull something and I'm like, yeah, whatever no big deal. I've seen so much worse Okay, like I know what actual madness is right, right? I've been I've been down the river to see doc the colonel Kurtz I know what happens. I think that's a whole This is what I think. I think that's a really good question to ask you though is Uh, yes, you've had this huge moment. I mean it it doesn't get bigger than that global Literally global moment just like you couldn't script it. It's impossible impossible

Impossible and yet at the same time. It's not done. Do you know what I mean? It's that mix of catharsis and then it's still totally annoying still continues. Yeah, yeah It's gonna be a weird push and pull. Yeah. Yeah, you came with a finger up your ass And they didn't take it out of your ass after like six months. What what happened? We're a little slap happy Whoa, it's you know when I started the cases and and I first brought them and it was just this thing that I Concocted to do and and I was out there all alone doing it and then as this has gone on Like there was another case that joined and then we had more families come in and and then now we're in this bankruptcy and good

God, there's so many people involved. There's bankruptcy judge a us trustee is some chapter 5 trustee Individual attorneys for every corporate entity attorneys for the families in Connecticut the attorneys for down here There's the attorneys for the universal the the unified creditors coming I mean, there are so many damn people involved that for a trial lawyer. It's a weird feeling because I am now just a very small part of this Like I am not there's anybody who right now has the sense of Waiting for the story to end and thinking that like mark bankston is at the controls of the fighter pilot like no No, not anymore like I had control of my trial in my cases and now It is a weird world. We have entered in this bankruptcy court. Well, actually, I mean I I heard from a very reputable source

Named alex jones that everything is pretty much resolved and it's gone great for him Is bankruptcy court proceedings are meant to wrap up pretty quickly like they're supposed to go pretty fast And they haven't been able to and I everybody without me even saying it knows why they haven't Well, well, I mean maybe a pattern of behavior, right? Yeah, they're just this this these things keep happening like Oh, suddenly you find seven million dollars in assets. You didn't Yeah, I just found that and suddenly. Oh, I'm making a deal for a third-party company to sell advertising on imports and pocketing Then outside of the banker. I was like, whoops gotta gotta deal with that. Let's see, you know Honestly, no through another that happens to me all the time though. I accidentally find seven million dollars of stuff that I

You know, I didn't know I had I mean this apartment is just Uh, rumpled and filled with millions of dollars. I believe that's what elizabeth left that part out of the new york times article Yeah, yeah, uh, well, here's the here's the difference between what we were doing in state court and what we're doing now Is that in state court if you'd ask jones Give turn over the evidence on these certain topics you're supposed to produce and he didn't do it And he just gave you the middle finger. You could just say all right find legal magic wand Those evidentiary matters are now taken as established. We don't have to worry about that shit anymore because you've been just uncooperative, right? But in the bankruptcy court when he does that you can't just magically

Wave a legal wand and and create money, right? It just you just can't go boom boom, right? It's not fairy dust stuff going on there And so you really do have to drill down you really have to do all of these things and it is like pulling teeth But but the teeth are getting pulled, right? I don't I've always said and I continue to say I don't know exactly how this ends, but but it's ending and it's not in a way that jones likes Like this is not good. There's no there's no version of how this plays out that is like really good for jones There's only a version of it in which it doesn't he's not a guy in a barrel of suspenders Like he has a life still and he he has the ability to have a career and make money and all that kind of stuff

But but there's no version of this where jones is like like laughing carrying bags with dollar signs on them running out or something Yeah, this is all coming in. Well, it's interesting because if you just have the view of it from his show Like I said, you have the forward facing appearance that he puts on of like everything is cool We made it through the reorganization and it's just a matter of you guys got to keep giving me money So you got that and then you also at the same time have him like Disappearing like not being on the show and having to go to hearings and be like pretending That's not what he's going to do. So you have this this like just from watching his show You have this weird image of like

There's trouble But he's pretend he's putting on a brave face and that that I always find very interesting You know, I don't think he's doing anything any different than almost any company that is in chapter 11 does Is they may be in chapter 11, but they try to send out every signal to the world of no no no everything's fine, right? Well, why would you support the business if you know if you knew that we're not good? Yeah, as we watch as we watch the banking system collapse. I think we all know what a bad news does for you. Yeah Yeah, I mean, look, there's no question that what bankruptcy is designed to do is to keep the business operating while stuff's figured out

right like you've got to you got to figure out what to do here and and and so Jones has a bit of an advantage over other businesses that if other businesses are in chapter 11 and very publicly are sinking into the To the ocean, right? That's going to scare off people from giving them money But with Jones's case, there are a good cadre of people out there who will throw money into the very tip of the titanic seeking down They'll be doing it. Yeah, you it might come back up They might float again. Hey Jim Baker got out of prison and went right back to work probably more successful probably more successful than before

Yeah, yeah, so that's that's actually My next question about whenever you brought up that there are so many people now added into this process How many of these people do you think are actually equipped to deal with? What we're dealing with do you know what I mean? Like yeah, like we've spent years Becoming equipped to this and these people are still in this space of like they're used to dealing with normal. Yeah. Yeah This is a bankruptcy as opposed to this is a cult leader exploding into a fire in front of us all. No. Yeah, everybody As opposed to like some state leaders of this case Literally everybody involved and I'm including the people who are representing Jones and his business entities at this time

Like everybody involved is incredibly sophisticated about what's going on Um, and it's it's wild to me because these bankruptcy professionals are in their own universe, right? Like they're in front of this same small group of judges every day day in day out They are not playing around in reputations for alex jones, right? Now there may be things that that jones does and they have to go in there a bag on their face, but they're not Nobody there has any illusions about who jones is and why he's a problematic Deter right that's everybody gets and and so it's it's it's an interesting thing that like yeah You think oh man, we've had to spend four years of getting up to speed on exactly how these people operate and whatnot

The good news is a lot of people who've been involved in that process are Are still involved in the process right like a lot of the people in that mix US trustee knows what's going on judge knows what's going on dead or jones knows what's going on, right? Like like everybody gets it at this point. It's just it's just a matter of There's really two sort of things that rub up against each other and any bankruptcy proceeding And it's one is the discovery and declaration and figuring out of what the assets actually are and two The creation of a bankruptcy plan that gets the creditors paid In such a way that that jones or any debtor in his position doesn't decide to just

Say a pox on all your houses go nuclear Destroy everything including all of his like he has some abilities to he's sitting there at the end of the track You know, he can he can jump if he wants to and and and that's So I don't think he's gonna jump would that just be like destroying his businesses. Is that like, yeah There's a lot of different ways that can go down. But yeah, exactly like like if if if this can't get resolved through a bankruptcy All right, like if that can't happen Then they would have to get resolved outside of the bankruptcy if the bankruptcy gets dismissed or or however that ends up wrapping Where then where there is no discharge of whatever these debts are then it has to go back into state courts

And they got to resolve those ways through collection and none of these options of how the different things could go None of them are good Like none of them like they all suck when you You said if it can't be resolved in a bankruptcy, it's got to result another way. I just think you're like, well street fight. Yeah Checked my watch, I guess we're getting on a flight here in a couple weeks. I don't know what to tell you look i'm like When you're in that route and there's no bankruptcy and you're talking about collecting on on Vertex that you've had you're talking about having sheriffs show up and seize the stuff and sell it at auction and stuff like that's what you're talking about

and That look you do that. There's no future. There's no there's no Like if free speech systems is liquidated. That's it. Jones are going and doing something else Right. Jones is not going to create more for free speech systems for you to come take in the future like in other words if if Jones could be in a situation where he could say I don't I don't care that I am a guy in a barrel of straps as long as Everybody's a guy in a barrel of straps, right? Like but that doesn't even make any sense because there's assets there. They can be seized

Well, I mean Jones would have to do something completely irrational Not for this to somehow resolve in a way to bankruptcy where he is brought to heal Well, here's here's what I'm thinking like with your saying like if info wars and free speech systems is liquidated Alex is doing something else. This brings up the attempt at Alex Jones live the Right, which I got shut down real quick. Yeah, you know, we haven't talked since that Came about and I don't know If you if you had any not involvement, but if you if you watched anything happen Uh with that very clear attempt to create something that was completely separate from info wars. Yeah

Oh, yeah No, you got to understand that that that our side and the in the UCC the creditors committee brought that to the attention of Jones's lawyers in the court and and what I mean, I can't speak, you know And what what I can't say is that has stopped right Jones's attorneys. I've noticed The judge didn't go like, oh, you got us this time. Oh Yeah, oh, right. Yeah, no, it was he did say it was totally unrelated like three times We'll see you in arkham asylum You keep seeing things in this bankruptcy that that I'll put it this way

They look really bad, right? Like they look like Jones is doing something to try to defraud his creditors or whatnot but it is always in such its infancy and so Stupidly tried to implement that it like immediately falls apart within like 20 minutes of him saying it and and so therefore there's not really Like nothing really happens because of it because it never really got off the crowd, right? It's not that there are attorneys who are twirling mustaches and hiding finding ways to scheme and hide his money or something like that It is at this point. He's in a state of desperation on some of these issues because he's just trying to just shove Shove money under the mattress wherever he can right like I get that instinct But like here's the greatest piece of evidence that we are not in collusion. You and I

You say that you brought it to the attention of the lawyers that alex was doing this alex jones live thing Yeah, if we had collaborated and I had any pull on this I would have said hold off for a second. Yep alex is planning on doing a painting. We gotta make the painting show And I need everybody everybody calm it down. We're all gonna pretend We're all gonna pretend. We're all gonna live in a space where it's like. Oh, you fooled us alex. He was there in no way He's planning on doing a bob ross and then he does an alex jones bob ross show and now we're all happy again You guys ruined that. You basically did. Yeah We're not always happy with the the lead plaintiff of the

Well, hey look when you see a leak in the in the bathroom, we got to shut it down before the floor's full of water Like that's just how it is. I think I think that's where I want to go next. Um, the credit Look at these interview chops. Sorry. Sorry. Yeah, my interview chops of cutting you off. Shut up. I've got a question No As far as uh, the the setup goes like what I'm hearing from you about the pancrepsy plan Is that its idea is to allow infowars to continue operating so that the business itself can continue paying Uh, the people of which it owes Uninsurmountable amounts of money, right? I suppose that's one way this could end

Okay, that's not necessarily how it ends in bankruptcy. No, like liquidate that company Um, I think that's what you're describing as the way alex would want it right to end. That's what that's what i'm asking Yeah, let me add the caveat that once again, I am a very small part of this process. Um, for sure I'm speaking of this in the 50 000 foot view of how does this play out in traditional bankruptcy strategy things like that in terms of On the ground, what a bankruptcy plan even like 90 of what's in a bankruptcy plan Would be like trying to get me to understand a manual on brain surgery. Like that's a different language Like i'm not qualified to even have opinions on that that right so what and and even the questions of Ultimately what happens to the parties like like how is how are because the question is is how to

Best guard the interest of the debtors While at the same time maximizing the recovery of the creditors like it's it's supposed to do that Often those two things are going to be in conflict and you don't know which one's going to give right So there's so many different ways a bankruptcy plan could take It could be implemented and it would depend on the on on also the the the amount of assets and and whether some of those are legally exempt And and and what the parties decide that debts are dischargeable because you have to remember You're still just talking about jones and free speech systems in bankruptcy. There are other entities in the mix too There are fraudulent conveyance lawsuits out there. This thing is a giant complicated ball of wax

Um, and so I I have learned that it has now entered a tariff. I'm a trial lawyer. I go get a verdict I go to the insurance company. They write me a check. We're done. We move on But but now I realize I've entered a world that is so labyrinthine and and arcane and full of weird ceremonies of lawyers spinning in circles three times and shaking hands and putting the seat Like I don't get it. Yeah, and it's it's it sucks But that's how this that's how that's how you deal with the intractable problem of you have a rich guy Now, how do you get his money? It's not an insurance company. The answer is this weird arcane process, which Is not good for him. I mean, I was thinking you hit him with a giant ball of wax

Just just nail him with a giant ball. I mean, he's the one who made the giant ball of wax You just let it roll down the hill and see what happens wax wax wax ball street fight wax ball street fight Thing I've learned as a lawyer and this case underscores it more than any other perhaps is that retribution Really feels nice when it happens, but it's pretty meaningless for the people who are hurt and and and At the end of the day, it's crass because it's America. So money's the only way we compensate like that's what compensation is measured in in value, but like There's no question that after everything that these people have gone through they deserve

To not have him profit from and they deserve those profits and like that's that's it's just it's pulling teeth to make that happen But it will happen like I'm I if there's one thing again that I can emphasize the only thing that I can really state for certainty about the bankruptcy because so much of it doesn't is beyond my pay grade Is is that he's not going to be running away if the bag is the money on it? Like this is not going to be alex jones laughing at the end of it of how well he did like uh, that's not The process is not uh, something that you can wiggle Uh through is is the sort of sense that that I think I think the the Underline sense of frustration that might arise from a lot of people

um After seeing this is is that alex jones is going to lose a lot of money But but what they may be disturbed by is just how much money some of the people Involved in the bankruptcy itself All right, like those lawyers who now represent amenities. How much did they make? I mean when you start seeing some of these disclosures, right you got you had I saw a lawyer who was representing alex personally Did like a $500,000 retainer? I saw there was another one representing free speed systems who had a million dollars in pre-petition conduct

Um, I just saw a thing about the cro the chief restructuring officer that they hired for info wars llc As submitted a bill and and like again hundreds of thousands of dollars, but isn't that even it's like not a real company Right, right a guy who like and then we even mock it that much But like even for the bankruptcy purposes and for the cro they went and just rented a weird office an empty office in victoria, texas Stuck two desks in a chair in it and said boom now. That's a company in victoria We're filing the bankruptcy in southern district of texas and and like that that's that's not like if you hear that And you see it portrayed in some movie or something You're like this is mass fraud like you are comically portraying mass fraud by showing an empty rental office

And you stuck to no, this is an absolutely sanctioned and totally kosher practice. Yeah This is all goodman business People don't like lawyers on the whole. It's really strange to me that the profession as a whole is denigrated Based entirely upon the behavior of all the people who do it Present company jordan Hey, hey, come on. You're my favorite lawyer So as as this goes on and continues longer and longer, I am imagining from your standpoint It becomes less likely that these other cases like posner and fontaine

Uh that are on hold are ever going to see court. I don't know if that's your sense What are your feelings on that at this point? You know, everybody asked like there's so many people who Want to know the answer to that question and then there's a smaller group of people closer to me Including many in barony who need to know the answer to that question and I don't have an answer to that question I I don't look it obviously depends on whether this Can

Functionally end in bankruptcy court and if it can then there's no positive trial. There's no fontaine trial if it can't Then I think there kind of has to be and and it it's not something You necessarily want to have happened because it's not Not that productive to go those routes and whatnot But on the same level you actually do want it to happen because lindy posner's never had a story told in a courtroom and I'll tell you that that's an important thing to clients is their day in court Yeah, um it it emotionally meant so much to newland scarlet And and so like yeah, it sucks. I don't know whether that's gonna happen. Um my my people asked like

When I was early first getting into the bankruptcy my instinct was there was no way that trials never happened Like it would you would have to have a completely irrational outcome for that trial to have happened But then like I keep thinking like that's exactly what has happened every step of the way is something completely irrational Yeah, um, so Yeah, that is that is kind of my but that goes back to my question as far as people That are equipped to handle this because I feel like it that you're elucidating why no one is equipped to handle this Because at every step of the way every one of you assumes someone will make a rational choice I mean there is some of that but like how can you possibly structure things otherwise like because otherwise you're guessing at the irrational choices

And you'll never hit those either But but that is the isn't that the the that is the problem though is everybody is allowing him to make so many choices He should have zero choices now. He gets to take the lead with the irrationality as both responding to he should have no lead No agency whatsoever. See here's what i'm thinking. What are you thinking? We need a uh, quite a bit of nonsense judge Okay, we need a chaotic judge None of this no nonsense all nonsense judge. Yeah, keep alex on his back foot. Cool. Yeah, that's a lot of them, right? It's completely maniac, right? Yeah, and somebody who forces alex to like wear one of those chains with a very heavy ball attached to it

Judge mill's lane. Let's get him in there I will push back on this so this idea like that alex at present has say in a lot of things like or has control or anything like that um Because he really is in a bag right now and in any other financial prison like you got to think if you're alex jones Do you really want to have every expenditure of dollar you make personally or in your business? Have to be approved by a group of lawyers in a court. No, sure I mean the argument against that though is that 99% of this world lives in a place where that prison is the happiest nicest uh, most wealthy place they've ever existed

Look, there's there's no question that jones is being allowed to live at a fairly high standard of living Right as most debtors in that situation are but substantially less than what he was. I mean he is not The tightening of the belt on jones has been pretty impressive Um, I look there are still some things that you know, like look, I saw for instance Yeah, you know some people were were complaining about I think it was something like $30,000 a year in housekeeping and like That's that's if you pay your housekeeper less than $30,000 a year If you that if you're the kind of person who has a housekeeper and you pay less than $30,000 I look down on you I'm sorry. That's yeah, I'm a full-time housekeeper and you pay them less than that. So you you're exploiting labor and like

You know and so so there are some expenses in there like you know, what's the 10 what about the 10 million for his cat? Yeah A little bit that cat has now decreased in value depreciated quite rapidly to $199 or whatever. I mean once you take him off the lot There you know, he did put out that video where he was yelling about how everyone wanted their the court wanted to take his cat away Yeah, he fundraised off of that. There are like same moosh you promo codes you can use and stuff like that. Of course He's a pro yeah, so I don't know. I think things are looking good there on that front and then

The other thing I wanted to make sure to update you about Because this kind of big news I know a lot of the fans had been following the sanctions hearings Yeah versus the attorneys, right? and Complicated explanation, but basically there's a time limit that is running in Hessland or actually it ran out a few days ago For when the court has to enter any final orders after judgment and like wrap up the case before it's all kind of set and set

within the bow and so Judge Gary Gamble issued orders on the sanctions versus and Dino right now Um still has the sanctions on Eric Tauber are still sitting out there and those can be ruled on later But uh, she actually sanctioned uh, and you know right now to pay the the neil and scarlet a hundred thousand dollars Um, and then if he appeals that order To the court of appeals and loses he has to pay another 55 thousand dollars And if he appeals that order the texas supreme court and loses then he has to pay another 62 thousand dollars um, so it's sort of uh

Uh, you know and these are all expenses relating to uh, um, you know the the the trial preparation and bankruptcy The the fact that the trial was was moved in april from when it was originally like so all these expenses that are related to that and uh, and uh, if I if I remember correctly also the um, the the first bankruptcy that was Correct. That's what I mean. Yeah, right. So so so neon scarlet's case was originally scheduled to be tried on in late april 2022 And and days before that trial was scheduled to start they they filed a bankruptcy and but it was a scam Yeah, he still owes me for the plane tickets that we thought that we didn't use. I didn't get that in the sanctions hearing You're fine. I got I got Yeah, he was garlic

I'll I'll live I'll live you can eat that one Yeah, judge judge garrigan wasn't about to let them get stuck with those kind of expenses after after the bad faith of that I mean it was it was pretty ridiculous what happened and so That's I gotta say for an attorney like every now and then you'll see some sanctions or a court will say hey You dirty you I'm gonna slap your wrist. I'm gonna hit you with $5,000 $10,000 in sanctions stuff like that I've never seen a six-figure sanction against an attorney like that I've seen it against like a law firm like and there's like say you got a case like apple versus samsung And you've got two mega law firms going against each other and one like

Seriously covers up evidence or substrate like you can get a million dollar sanction against that law firm for all of the legal work That occurred over the course of years, right? Or hell in this case, right when when jones hit his like fifth sanction and the court was like, all right Well screw you don't have to pay for any of the discovery you've ever undertaken in this case And so that was a million dollars in sanctions that jones paid Uh, but with renault a path to pay a hundred thousand dollars, you know like And if he if he appeals and messes up he could be looking at close to a quarter million out of his pocket And and in some cases like a lot

It is a lot. It's a lot Think about how much he got paid by alex though, too. I mean he's still ahead for the trial, right? I mean, we kind of we kind of know how much he got paid by alex because he had to file his contract with the bankruptcy court Um, so we know that upon retention, right? He got paid a hundred thousand dollars for the retention And then for the months that he actually represented alex for instance Like it was it was cut off if the bankruptcy like there was a clause in the contract said if there's a bankruptcy and andino Is not working basically then he doesn't get paid But then so when he comes back though, then he gets paid another hundred thousand dollars for the month

So we know that for when he was retained in in march up until april with the bankruptcy There's a hundred thousand right there and then it comes back and it goes to trial in july, you know late july to early august That's another month right there. So you're looking at two hundred thousand dollars through the trial That's half of it then. Yeah, and yeah All right, all right, I thought I was I was picturing it is he made a bit more from alex Yeah, well once that one place was 400 grand or 500 grand, you know that kind of thing We may find out when alex makes certain disclosures in the bankruptcy court later about what indino has been paid since Right, but I mean you can

You can reasonably understand exactly why everyone is furious about that because it seems as though if you're going to punish somebody You have to take their entire fee and then punish them. You know because some of their fee That's you taking a cut of their fee. Do you understand why people think that way? Look, here's the deal is if I if i'm sitting there after a trial and I have a hundred dollars and you come and you take Fifty dollars out of my wallet as a punishment. That's gonna be a serious deterrent for me Doing that kind of work again. I wasn't thrilled unless you normally make 25 dollars If you normally make 25 dollars and this time you make 50. That's arbitrage, baby No, he's actually this is the kind of lawyer who um, who

Who trades on this kind of level? Um, and so taking this kind of hit is not great It's not and I mean look you're talking about a guy like there was some level of me that I thought Man, I don't know how much this court is really going to come after this attorney Because good god has he suffered in this public image like there. I can't think of an attorney Who is broader known to a public audience as having made a big screw up publicly? I don't know Right and and the idea that he was the butt of all of those jokes that he was all of that that that there are social media

means of him that will live on forever that That he's constantly like any people will recognize him from the picture of him and alex turning around really quick and that's all Like he's in there. That's forever. You don't walk away from that and and and and you know That's that was already a big hit and then he takes this this embarrassment up in canada hit and gets his license suspended up there To now take a sanction on top of that and this that's rough. Yeah, it's weird almost You almost think maybe the reputational in kind sanction. Yeah, maybe even more than the actual sanction Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think so but you know so did he also get divorced because of this? Let's just add in as many different possible terrible mark stole his lizard

Well, I I don't know that this was the cause now But immediately before Jones before renaught took on Jones as a client He was at a law firm called for tita and renaught And then within a couple weeks after taking mr. Jones as a client He is at a law firm called the renaught firm pc And I don't know if those two things are related but but man, they're right around the same time And so right as he's launched in this new firm whether because of this or not Like that's a pretty big hit to take. I mean

I can't imagine You know, I remember talking to a to a lawyer who was involved in this case who whose name I won't say who had mentioned that after getting out of the case that they had paid a significant amount of money to try To have search engine optimization A lot of what was going on And and but a guy like right now, you'll never he'll never be able to get away from it. He just you just can't That's true, but I'm not sure. I'm not sure his name itself is a household name But you're right about the images and and and you can't google without it

Like look if you're going to be hiring a criminal defense lawyer of that profile, right like you're going to be paying Yeah, I mean he's a guy who's gotten charged $800 an hour for his work or something You know, like like you're gonna google that guy before you sign the paperwork and like Yeah, you're gonna have to be comfortable with what you find on google and that's that's gonna hurt Yeah, I don't know but that's a big pill the the actual money it is it is a big thing Like that's a that's a big hit to have to write that out of your check And because in a lot of cases if you're a lawyer and you get sanctioned You're usually doing it because you did something on your client's behalf

And so you can tell your client behind the room like hey, you're gonna pay this sanction You're gonna pay me the money to pay this sanction He can't do that because jones isn't bankruptcy and I mean they'd have to ask the bankruptcy court to let jones pay for Reina no, that's never happened and even Even without the bankruptcy alex isn't paying that now. Yeah Well I don't you say that man, but He has bled money into his attorney's hands over the course of these last four years

I mean just if you can say like one of the nice things about the fact that we've been able to like Kick these people off the carousel like in a revolving way like constantly is nobody has really spent that much time on the carousel So it's not like any one of these 24 lawyers is going to walk away with a giant reward off the end of this Right, right some of these bankruptcy lawyers are getting paid quite a bit But if there had just been one lawyer throughout the whole case that guy would be the winner or woman I though I can't even imagine a woman representing alex jones that Like fries my Have that one woman for a bit. There was at least in the dog. Oh, you're right. There is a woman in the trial court

Mixed there was jacqueline blot. You're absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, that was I mean, well, that's If I had to picture a kind of woman who would write that she said there's so many people who are on this carousel you forgot Yeah, no, you're not lying about that man I mean We had a sanctioned hearing around literally countered them off for the court like we listed them all out because It became an issue on this and if you count the people who are now involved in the bankruptcy, we're talking 24 lawyers Yeah, I think we were at at 14 when we hit right now a trial. So like it's it's

I mean, it's good. None of those people had that concentration of getting all of that But but it is just like it's like you have this image of those remoras or whatever that attached to sharks, you know, like Yeah, one of these little things attached to this big bloated alex joneshark And you know who came out ahead probably the biggest winner is media star bobby barns I mean, I would I'd say it's either him or and also right one of those two probably That's that's the fucked up part of this that is is really fucking with my head is that I uh, Erica laffordy has a go fund me now Erica laffordy has a go fund me for cancer treatment, right? And there are uh,

I suppose the shittiest people on the planet making hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of dollars every single day I mean, obviously not every single day, but you know what? I mean the point the point stands like it is incredibly fucked up And that's part of why I say that nobody at the bankruptcy a court is equipped to handle this is because that's absurd Every part of this is absurd Erica laffordy has a go fund me because in theory alex owes her millions of dollars Alex owes her millions of dollars alex should be paying for that like the bankruptcy court should not exist unless it's paying that Go fund me. Do you know what I mean? Like that doesn't exist in a world that makes even half of the sense that it should

Yes, I mean, that's why people are frustrated. Yeah Look, I'm one of them But maybe it's just that I've lived inside this system long enough to know that the little bits and pieces that you can tear From unconsensual hands is about the only justice you really ever get and here This one ain't bad yet. Like, you know what? I mean like like look You've got you've got everything that the public trial was meant to do it did and then now you have a situation where jones has been punished Really severely and will eventually it's gonna have to pay a giant some money

But it isn't complete because you're right there's all these things that permeate it that are endemic to our system about how people with wealth can operate through it and how the legal profession exists to sort of Just skim off the top of that whole process. Yeah, that's it sucks, man. You're right and and I really I'm glad to have brought and now I've gotten like I'm brought sanctions against two different lawyers who have got up against the ropes Um, so at least they're paying some of that consequence, but you're right There's a giant cast of characters here who will shrug this off and move on to their next project and it It's it's a bigger problem that i'm equipped to handle, but you know at least uh

Yeah, I realized that yelling at you to fix it probably is gonna do it again though those interview chops. Let me try this Fix it Did that work? Did you do you have the power now? Oh shit damn So there's another um thing that uh, I wanted to bring up You were saying earlier when I was asking you about the other possible trials Um, you were saying that it's something that is very important for plaintiffs especially in this sort of circumstance to have their day in court and be able to You know talk uh those say to alex's face, you know, like this is this is my experience. This is the truth of things

and um It was it was wonderful to be there and see uh neil and scarlet's Um, uh ability to stand up to him and and what have you um, but alex decided to try and steal that A little bit with his story that he told about uh scarlet crying and telling him that he was right about everything And recently we discovered an apology video that he put out that you featured prominently in or a letter that you sent him was Featured in this and and I wanted to ask you about it because This was not something that I felt really got publicized at all. I'm not saying that's a like

Uh, shortcoming on you or anything, but like I pay attention to alex quite a bit and it wasn't something that was in the news No, but I didn't see anybody tweeting about it. There wasn't any real um coverage of alex makes a pathetic uh and Sort of backhanded apology uh retraction video. I found that really interesting. Yeah, I think the people I think some of the mainstream have like Approached a level of thinking that he's pathetic in the aftermath of this that they're not going to focus any more attention And maybe they found it too granular

but to me it was It was quintessential alex joneson that it was both hilarious and then also like Sort of infuriating at the same time But but so I don't just sort of give some background here. I don't know. Do you want me to lay this out? Yeah, lay it out Please please. Okay. So so as as you know, what went on the trial essentially was There was a period where jones went on his show and said, you know what maybe I think I was probably wrong about neil hustlin Um, neil hustlin seems like he was a real person and then he says that neil He says well the reason I I was fooled like I understand this now because you know, he's slow

He's he's on the spectrum. He's autistic and and he's been he's been manipulated by some some some very bad people and and he's really slow But his wife is not she's sharp And and these bad people are manipulating him to say these things because at this point scarlet hadn't testified, right? He's manipulating him to say all these things and all this so essentially what the message here is is that is that neil's a dumb guy has some sort of intellectual disability and that his evil ex-wife scarlet has gotten with these evil plaintiffs attorneys and some I don't know like some some people from mike bloomberg's office or Yeah, yeah, definitely blew me

Like done some like like crystal hypnosis on neil or like whatever like manipulated him in some way that was That was definitely the underlying subtle message. It was Really good at that man. He's doing that without saying it right like textually saying it But he says it with these weird things of like these weird juxtapositions of like he's slow The wife is not like here's what's going on. Yeah, it's like really weird. It's like she's a real person You know she is Uh, but also I'm gonna insinuate that she's really sneaky and yeah with these lawyers Yeah, and it was it pissed both my clients off because

Like both neil and scarlet the truth is they're both really sharp and for scarlet She knew immediately what he was saying and and for neil was upsetting because like I don't know neil and scarlet. They they have a great relationship on some level But like all people who are not married, right? It's neil's like the idea that scarlet's gonna manipulate me. That's ridiculous. Absolutely Stupid stupidest thing I've ever heard I gotta let that woman manipulate me. I manipulate her like you know, that's that's the uh And scarlet was like really unlike mark. I feel like what like even now Even now when he's supposedly saying it's real neil was real

He can't help himself but say that i'm deep state Yeah, that I that I'm that that's what I am. It's like maybe that I'm like she was like look maybe like that even that I'm a real bomb or whatever But like that I'm part of a deep state thing that's manipulating neil or something And she was just so in on it and she was like look mark when I can I talk about it on the stand? And I said look talk to west. He's in charge of your I'm not There's he that's you between y'all too. So during west went and had a conversation about He shouldn't we play this clip and then they decided. Yeah, like we needed to play this because she wants to talk about

How she felt about what was said about neil and how that related to her and so it was it was a good little moment Well, jones takes this And and he he's in his mind He's like well look I said neil was real. I said it really happened So like the lawyers lying to her like I said it happened. So she that has to be right So there was a point in the trial, of course where scarlet went up and handed him a bottle of water after he was coughing through the whole testimony Well, actually, there's another thing When alex was on the stand. He said you need to go watch my show. Yeah, see the full context of this

Yes, that's an important part of his argument was like, yeah I was just trying to point to scarlet. I mean like you need to these lawyers are tricking you you need to go watch And she's like I watched the segment like I know It's not that long of a segment really Um, and and so he was yeah trying to put and so what's what alex now says after the trial Is that when scarlet came up to hand him a bottle of water that alex said, you know Um, you know, basically like I I hoped you watched my video or whatever and scarlet was like Yes, I went and saw what you said and my lawyers lied to me and you were right

You were right all along and like and crying she was crying and was crying about this. Yeah and hugged him So scarlet obviously is like no, this is not okay. This is this is this sort of like post verdict stuff to try to I can Have this view that he's reconciling himself up to the parents against the evil lawyers who manipulated them Like that's what this whole thing is. She didn't want to let that stand She was like mark. Can we sue him and I'm like, well, hold on a second because he's in bankruptcy right now So just like pump your brakes for just a second

But because what we first have to do under the law is we have to demand a retraction from you And that would give us the ability to sue like you can't it doesn't matter whether he retracts it But you can't sue him before you demand the retraction Okay, and the effect of a successful or sufficient retraction And and correction is that that plaintiff can't get punitive damages in the suit Right, but they can still sue even if you do the retraction. So we write him a pretty lengthy letter Um, because Um, as I remember. Yeah. No, this is because he appeared on pierce morgan to say all this

Well, well, he did it on his show a couple times and then also appears morgan. I don't I don't watch his show And you know, I'm a religious pierce morgan watcher. I just true true And I get enough of pierce morgan the accent it gets whatever is it? I don't even know where you see pierce. It's on some sort of weird european streaming channel I think at this point like i have alex alex says it's the number one rated news show in the uk well Okay, everyone rated because he was on it. It's one of the most important shows most important shows that's ever been I mean, is that like right after like lord pickle bottom shrier hour? Like yeah, like no, this is not Oh man, our british listeners

Oh, sorry guys. Sorry guys. It's actually after um, the gribble pibble hour You know what I just want everybody to know who knows about that reference that our expert dr. Bernard petting go Really really thought that was funny So that insult didn't land quite as much as No, but so alex is on pierce morgan and said all this stuff And so we wrote him a letter saying hey you you everything you said here is false You did imply that that scarlet was a deep state person manipulating neil. That's what she was pissed about That's what she called yad about you need she never went up to you

And said any of these things you say she said she never did any any of that and so you need to retract all that And uh under the law and also preserve all evidence relating to those communications and videos etc etc And part of what he needs to do in order to do that is to publish a retraction in a manner That's reasonably calculated to reach the name number of people So that's why he kept saying we're making requests to get on pierce morgan show We keep making requests to get on the show Oh, see I I took that as a I just want to get rebooked Oh, yeah

No, no, it's actually legally important and and it may become legally important in the future Um is that is that I simply just going on infowars You know now what he can say is but he didn't even do it on his own show Yeah, that's what's messed up exactly. Yeah, it was just a video on his website Yeah, if you want to like so that's strike one and two against why the retraction would be You know worthless and that's before we get to the 15 strikes within the retraction You'll notice that there was definitely a part of it that was scripted for him that that was written by somebody else Yeah, I probably

Probably one of these lawyers like mr. Ray know somebody it's all written It was all scripted. He wasn't riffing any of it, but there was a discernible kind of like All right, here is what seems like a normal apology and then he decided to play some clips And then he went into his clips. You're exactly right. He read what was clearly a prepared attorney statement Yeah, and then he said but if that's that was literally all he said, but it was everything that happened after that Like I can't imagine what they had to do to get him to read this because they were I can tell you the attorneys Gave that to him because they were terrified of what I might do because while he's in bankruptcy The idea of me bringing new suits against him or posing that and even having that hang over his head like a sort of

Damocles is is pretty nasty and they don't they don't like it Um, but alex put them in that position. So they're like run out here do this retraction Um, which I mean honestly, I don't even know why they did it because if I'm gonna sue them I don't care about the punitive damages like why even do it But they they go out they do this retraction, but then alex probably has a condition of doing it was like Yeah, but I get to say x and y and z right right And I'm going to apologize, but I get to say that I was right and that I shouldn't have to apologize That's why they call him the great negotiator. Yeah

He's basically like given a speech about how he's going to respect scarlet lewis's lived experience like he's he's talking like he's uh He's on tumblr in 2014 like it's really weird. I will defer to her memory Yeah, like but it's it's all couched in such a way as to say that like no, she's wrong. I'm right. She's she's lying It's definitely at least insinuating that fairly heavily. Yeah. Yeah, it's uh, uh I mean, it's it's pretty it's it's it's a pretty terrible apology And it doesn't ever take on head on what he actually did and why she was upset And and and of course, he doesn't want to have to confront that in the middle of his trial He tried to say that the person suing him was slow and autistic and that's why he thought he was a crisis actor and not a real parent

That's not a great thing. You want to keep repeating out loud Um, so maybe yeah, it doesn't it doesn't play well. I think yeah, even among his own audience I don't think you'd even you know what I mean? So like He wanted to make it this other thing and he's still so desperate to have this idea that I think on some level it really matters to him That scarlet and neil like him. Yeah, because he's not a bad person He doesn't really believe he's a bad person everything about his choices is I don't want to believe that I am a bad person It's I'll tell you I got this vibe with him too and I didn't I didn't see it so much in his

Um, his relations of chris matty up in Connecticut because chris matty He absolutely despises to the core like chris matty He can feel no sense of human connection with he would he would if given the opportunity He would strangle him with his hands like he would he has no control over his own feelings about chris matty chris matty Pushes his buttons in a unique way Well, he put out a hit on him Yeah, exactly Yeah, right. He never off I did some weird stuff to the guy never ever

Anybody put his head on a bike and I always got this sense down to the very bitter end Even to the moment where he said well, here's your perimation moment Like the guy wants me to like him and he wants me to think that we have he thinks that if I could just see that We had some common ground. He could sway me over to his way of whatever or something There's something he wants me to think that he's cool I mean, I would almost argue it's more like uh, it's more like batman never kills the joker, you know Like they just keep doing the dance. They just keep doing the dance. There's a certain love triangle there doesn't kill killer croc either Wow

I just said that but i'm talking about the never-ending love between uh arch nemesis. They are a dramaturgical dyad Yes, exactly and they must exist with each other all that all that pretentious. They taught us in college. Yes So then the implication of that is that alex sees you as his dramatic foil. Totally. Whereas With matty, he doesn't he doesn't matty is too businesslike for him. I guess yeah He views matty like I think he would view like a black site interrogator like he doesn't there's no humanity shared Yeah, he's got no soul. He's got no soul. He's not trying to challenge his eyes Um, yeah, yeah, exactly like it's not it's that's not how that relationship plays out But here's here's what's weird about that though

I i've listened to the depositions that matty did with uh with alex and there is Sparring there is like as much as you had a back and forth with him matty does as well But I know it is different you are right, but it but there is still the sparring It's it's more about the way that alex is engaging with that back and forth I think it also at the time you're hearing that deposition That deposition and particularly the last parts of it are I think What really pushed jones over the edge and hating chris matty? They that deposition does not is not comfortable and does not go well for jones

And and and he's already had a few uncomfortable depositions by that point And the he just hates the guy like on a visceral level and and I can't I can't wrap my head around Like why jones really wants to ingratiate himself to some people or or vindicate his views to some people and not to others It doesn't always make sense to me, but the way he treated us is so so different It's it's my guess my guess is it's like he sees him as a like ivy league kind of suit and tie lawyer Whereas you're more of like a rock and roll lawyer Maybe I mean, let me let me let me because you you work at the beard law firm, you know The two of you the two of you are both very very smart, but I am I am a creature of pure emotion

So let me try and explain this from alex's point of view If I can get you to get mad at least in a little bit then I can understand your emotion I can't understand what you're saying because I'm I'm a big dumb dumb But if you're if you're giving me anger, you know, then I'm like, yeah Now we're in a situation where I I understand this person, but if you're just calm I'll be gonna lose my fucking mind. I'm gonna go crazy. I'm gonna try and act even crazier to get something out of you I guess especially if you're sparring calmly. Yeah. Oh my god. If you spar calmly with me, I'll fucking kill you Yeah, something but I think there is also just something jones

is He's one of those weird boomers or I guess he's it's he's not he's sort of late gen X But he's one of those. Oh, no. No, he's from the silent generation No, he's yeah in the chasm there Because that's what that's what always gets to me. We we have this weird relationship that I often forget He's just a couple years older than me. Like he's not Yeah, I'm like it's me out too. So Every time I think that he's 10 years older than me. It freaks me out. Yeah, it freaks. Exactly

He should be so much really done. But he is part of that cohort who wow was very early adopter to the internet He never really took to it in quite a way But they have this innate respect for those who are very internet bread or whatnot and it's like because that's who Alex cultivates right like he's always he you look at like his communications, right like and it's and it's always He really he's he sort of reminds me of elon muskin this way He really wants to understand memes But he can't like he really wants to understand how some of this internet stuff works and he can't And so I think when he was dealing with somebody who he knew

Understood his world on that level Like he was he was he yeah, that was different from somebody he felt was outside of his tribe You're not you're not giving enough respect to the conflict that he lives in because he doesn't understand memes But at the same time on the streets, they call him the meme machine. He's the meme machine. He's the main machine Because people keep making memes about him and yet he can't understand them You imagine the turmoil and conflict you would be living in if you were the meme machine and you didn't understand Yes, memes. I mean, I remember I actually remember him in text messages

Sending memes of himself or people would send memes of himself to him that that all parties involved just abjectly did not understand And that that is hilarious to me That he just can't So wait back back to this apology video. Oh, yes. Yeah Um, I don't see too many apology videos in my day. I don't know how many retractions or like You know in your line of work, right? Do you come across many or is it something that happens a bit? I mean it has to happen in nearly every defamation case, right? Like they at least have the I've got the opportunity to do it. And so yeah, I see some I mean, I will look I saw one in fontaine, right? Info was published a

a Retraction a day late, but they did it in fontaine and it's a fairly normal looking retraction on an article saying the stuff in years That was in print though, right? Yeah, that was exactly. Yeah, that seems a little bit less insane than this Yes, that's that's what I'm kind of getting at is like I don't have a lot of experience so I can't grade it against other ones But it seemed like this was one of the strangest attempts at what it's trying to be Like as a retraction apology video, it seemed like it worked against the goal that it was ostensibly trying to present Right. Yeah, that's this is what gets me about it. Somebody I don't know who

It's been a pretty fair amount of time writing some good legal language for him to say And then he completely threw all that time that that guy spent in the trash by what he did right afterwards, right? Like it he might have just was not said any of if he was gonna do that because what's so funny about that is That is the one thing that he did that I understand completely Like that is so clear to me because he agrees at like I can this is one of the few things where I can see directly into his mind Because I share it which is just that a lawyer's apology is worthless Like it means nothing if you let a lawyer write your retraction. You might as well shit on a piece of paper It means nothing to anyone, right?

So he knows when he reads this that no one's gonna believe that he cares. I gotta mean gotta juice this up totally Totally, he's nobody's gonna believe what he's saying. So in his mind, I swear to you in his mind He's like I am going to make this apology sincere. That was his idea But I don't know Yeah I think that Jones thought if he just had to read what his attorneys wrote and that was it that would be capitulation And jones ain't capitulating on this point or to me on anything at this point

Like either there's no value in it. He doesn't see any value in it And he doesn't see any value on losing anymore either it doesn't matter to him anymore All that matters is ego. So he is he can't capitulate. He has to prove that no, I was right I did say it and you lied to your client. You did xy like he had it. I Contend like he does not care. I really believe this when all this was happening He doesn't care about you or strong at all. I don't care what they think don't care The only thing he thinks he cares about is whether he can use them as props to try to try to look better And that they like or what he doesn't actually care what they think or what they think of the apology

The part of the apology that his lawyers didn't write where he was talking that was addressed to me that was Telling him x and y was true and I've got a suit and I was him telling me no banks and you're wrong Look at these videos. I'm gonna prove you wrong banks, right? It would have been funny if he had just the lawyers written thing and then at the end was like also Fuck you mark I would have taken that as legitimate. That would have been legitimate. I would accept that I've been mentioned enough times on the show that I can I can do without it

But it was what's what's nice about it is like look, it doesn't really matter in my mind if if he apologizes or not That that cause of action is still on the table like he's scarlet has a year from when she sent that letter to to file that cause of action Yeah, and I Real quick. I agree with you on the capitulation part But there's a sense that I get that there's a motivation to make Weird actions seem justified. I think that that is the like what is is is underneath it There is a what he did Is unacceptable

I think almost anybody would recognize that saying that scarlet came up and was crying and and and all this in the middle Of the trial and after the trial, you know continuing on making a prop of this person who you have you know more or less Terrorized for many years. Yeah, you know like that is a behavior that I think anybody would look at and be like there's no reason to do that that is monstrous shit and the videos

You know there is the angle of it that is like maybe I'm right or whatever right? There's that but then if you take a step back and read it in the most generous light I think you could just see it as him being like There's reason for me to have maybe misheard something So at least the I'm not a bad person. That's yeah the telling of the stories gives like some sort of plausible justification for like I made a mistake. I made a mistake. Other people make malicious. We all make mistakes. I'm not a bad person who did something Actively evil towards another human being

I'm being overly generous. Yeah. No, no, no, yeah when you say that Jordan that that this is all part of a Um a statement of vindication of his central morality. I'm a good person We all agree. I'm assuming that that that is just a a knowingly false statement for public Relations image management persons that we you don't think that jones psychologically trying to reconcile with himself That he's a good person. Yeah, totally because I don't I don't I don't anymore I I could I could actually see that on some level of this idea that that some of the things that jones I thought that he did he he had he had wound himself up in a way to to make this round about circular bullshit Log to convince himself that he was a good person and I no longer believe and part of that is look

I've read so much of his personal communications. I think jones knows exactly what a vile person he is I think there's a lot of self-loathing there about it I think that's true of a lot of people who do some bad stuff and and people I don't necessarily believe people are good or bad like that I believe that like their social patterns and and the determinism of their social but it leads them into these horrible patterns of behavior That that they can't escape from anymore And he that's long gone for jones and I I feel like the things he does some of the things he does He knows they're wrong. He knows. Yeah, I would agree with that

and I think that one of the difficulties is that there is such a thin line between someone, you know psychologically convincing themselves that they're a good person and acting in ways that give the public presentation of like Do insisting that they're a good person like it appears very it would appear very similar and it's it's really hard to To do and I almost I almost think it doesn't it's a matter for a psychiatrist There's a yeah It's also like a personal professional line kind of situation in his in his personal life in his

Who I am as a human being there are limits to what he'll accept as yeah, like I am a good or bad person But but I actually fuck them but I that kind of thing I'm more in line with what mark's saying. I think that he does know that what he does is bad and a lot of the things Yeah, I'm sure I think it's actually wild though that it kind of speaks to the The richness of your subject matter for this podcast is that y'all been doing it for years I've been stuck look it's five years ago. I brought this lawsuit, right? And I've been I've I've spent more time interrogating Alex Jones personally than anybody on the planet All right, like nobody is nobody has had the amount of time where he has to answer in the ways that he's had to answer

Then he's had with me and here the three of us all sitting around Trying to deduce what's going on with this guy and we still don't get it Like it's still still more to figure out. There is still more to analyze. There's still he is he is one of the most Complicated dumb guys I've ever run across. Yeah, and I I think that there's an element of luck I think that we started the show when we did In as much as like we're well up to speed by the time There is now but like I think that history will show him to be like A unique figure

He is a unique figure in american history for better or worse true and our modern our modern time No one's making a podcast for six years about rob do is what is Nobody's making a podcast for six years about me It's not an ego thing. I do know, you know, it's not like that. Yeah After those depositions think about the sheer amount of silence that would be in that podcast over its run It would just be the long Punctuated silences I've gone back and watched some of his like

Uh Info wars nightly news stuff to try and find something to like let's do it do a let's do it do a sewed No, no, no good. There's no juice there And shroyer doesn't have the juice none of them have it none of them have what it is there and you can't you just can't do it that way I don't know yet I suppose I suppose that's the that's the question that I I think I'm I'm really interested in you know about rough as you know Uh, as you as you pointed out, you know, like the three of us we've been doing this for so long and we still don't have

Uh, a clear like oh, I know what's going on with this guy But there is something that we do know which is that he cannot stop himself That is not a thing that cannot happen and in order for him to be stopped Something we'll have to intervene to stop it. You know how many times in this case I have said the words all that jones had to do and then x or y situation was being normal for like 20 or 30 Minutes and he can't do it. He can't do it. You literally can't do it and and it's there's no off switch I it was weird like I got so wrapped into this what's going on with this guy that I briefly during the suit convinced myself that he was like maniacally smart

He's really really way more than he's initially letting on and that there's this weird thought process No, and then I realized this is just one of the most complicated dumb men ever to exist And you're right that he's so unique that when when this I I don't think people who didn't live it really like who were seen it really understand the vibe of alex jones 2016 to 2018 and and what he was in this country and then the effect that he plays Because whatever you might want to say for whatever for his audience is right now. It is not that anyway He does he does not have that cultural influence footprint any of those things. He does not he is not he's there's something like again

I hate to use those like the word like this, but he's like zeitgeisty for 2016 2018 And he was at the height of his powers and so like I there were there could have been a lot of Things I could have taken on at that point in my career, but seeing that opportunity I was like this guy is unique and if you do damage to him you you you actually do something You change trajectories and stuff and Maybe we did I don't know. I know he's not at the height of his powers and we're I know we defamed him Well, I know one thing you did and that is you fucked me on getting a painting show As much as I appreciate everything else you've done for the plaintiffs and the family

That is unforgivable. We do we do appreciate the work you've done But what have you done for me lately and the answer to that is fucked us with a painting show so You just imagine an easel alex is sitting there blank canvas Just from his mind. He's sitting there. I don't know I would create fake accounts in order to like try and buy those paintings I would make I'd have a gallery of alex jones originals. It's black and it stands for abortion We're gonna make we're gonna make some nice natural fluffy clouds none of these these globalist seed planted flat clouds

Like we're not gonna do that. No don't come trails here. If you make a happy tree. I will kill you Here's a here's a nice lake. No fluoride in there, baby Well, maybe one day maybe one day, maybe one day he'll uh, he'll do that Uh, just not as a scam. You know, I was I was just thinking when you were talking about earlier like oh the nuclear option Is he destroys everything to do with info wars and I'm like, oh, yeah, baby Give me that painting show none of this if we get rid of it The only way he's going to really branch out is if you get rid of everything else take away all of his options You got to kill your darlin that barrel and then make him paint

I mean, let me let me uh, I'll emphasize something intrinsic about nuclear war Is that alex jones? I think the only one of his finger on the button, you know, and I mean we got options too And uh, yeah a lot of things to do it. Press the button Now press it now. Why are we not pressing buttons? We have buttons neighbors. Sorry Uh, jordan overeager for nuclear Sorry, I'm bad. I'm not a good president. Ah, we're at def con for it. That's close enough. Burn him Glad you're not a football glad I'm not a football guy So mark, we should probably wrap this up because we're getting deep into the evening now. Yeah

Yeah, we always do But this has been a delight. Is there anything else on your mind or radar that uh, do you think people would find interesting? I was kind of trying to see like you that's the thing is normally when I'm on the show. I'm like, you know I'm like a comic doing plugs at the end. Oh, we got a hearing coming up on this day. Make sure to No, there's there's there's nothing everything dead and then in the water in the state courts right now because everything's in the bankruptcy courts I don't I don't you know, you can call in and tune in and listen to those bankruptcy hearings If you if you really want to but spare yourself the pain and I'll do a shout out here to uh, morgan stringer. Yeah Yeah, she is if there's anything going on in those courts, she's gonna thread it and you're gonna find out about it

Yeah, it's very helpful in keeping up. And you know what? I mean, she does a great job But also I still don't really fully know if I understand everything that's going on right. Yeah me too me too But that's a deficiency of my understanding not of the tweeting That's about that's all that's going on now. Of course everybody should be uh, sort of Waiting on baited breath for you know, this hbo documentary of all these cameras that were in our courtroom for the Yo, we're preening Is that is that actually going to turn into something? Oh, yeah Oh, yeah, look, so so for those who don't know that that hbo documentary is being held by dan reed who is um

He was director like finding leaving neverland that hbo documentary on michael jackson And and he's done a lot of like really highly awarded work and and so this is legit stuff like hbo hired this guy to be their document exclusive documentary guy for the next few years and um, He did six hours at the Capitol. You might have seen that too. Um, which is that j6 documentary. Um, and and so the guy He he's been around the subject matter for so long. He was following us through hearings watching you You know, yeah watching us preen to these areas and and and really understand the subject matter And so I'm really excited to see what his take on it is because it's not just going to be a I mean, I don't I don't think it's going to be boring. Right like I think well, he did not ask me for an interview

So we know it's gonna suck Yeah, my my interaction with him. I believe was that elevator. No, no, no, that was a different weirdo Uh, no, I believe I made fun of him on twitter one day and then the next day in the courtroom He came up and he was like, you can stop calling me a HBO documentary guy Um, and then I forgot his name. We shook hands and he left and we never spoke again But uh, yeah, no, he's still HBO documentary guy because he screwed me on an interview. He didn't interview me But I I expect that'll come out later this year, of course to paint on some events, you know, like it Be nice if it hasn't ended. I'll say it would be nice

Yeah, you know, that's that's one of the things that um, I think we've made peace with somewhat just by the nature of an episodic podcast it kind of is is what it is but like Narratively, this just doesn't end just won't stop You know, like trying to make a documentary about a discrete section of of something it's with alex. It just doesn't work. Yeah if you would told me in april of 2018 That in april of 2023 alex jones would still be a major feature of my life. I would have laughed to you I just said no way

You'd be talking to a couple of ding-dongs at Late into the evening about alex jones Well, it is always a pleasure though gentlemen, I'll tell you that amen. Give your best to the lizard and uh Wish you good luck with the I know now like tomorrow No, it's fight subred. It's just gonna be spammed or for quest for lizard pictures. Oh, yeah Yeah, you better have a pick of bill shirtless too that one will go over pretty well Bill shirtless with the lizards in the garden and today's newspaper. Otherwise, no one will believe it's real

We can AI Well, thank you again mark, uh, we I hope we can uh talk again soon And I hope uh, you know everything goes as smoothly as it can I guess thanks guys. Thanks guys. I'll see y'all soon Bye Andy and chan's us. You're on the air. Thanks for holding So Alex I'm a first-time caller. I'm a huge fan. I love your work. I love you