Knowledge Fight - #807: February 17, 2004

Episode Date: May 15, 2023

Today, Dan and Jordan stick around in the past to pay off the last episode's cliffhanger about Diane Sawyer's interview with Mel Gibson and Alex's inside information about what Mel said.  Alex has some strong feelings, but the question of whether or not he even watched the interview hangs heavy.

I'm sick of them posing as if they're the good guys saying we are the bad guys knowledge fight. Dan and Jordan, knowledge fight. I need money. Andy and Kansas, stop it. Andy and Kansas, it's time to pray. Andy and Kansas, you're on the air. Thanks for holding. Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Knowledge Fight. I'm Dan. I'm Jordan. We're couple dudes like to sit around, worship at the altar of Celine and talk a little bit about Alex Jones. Indeed, we are Dan. Jordan. Jordan. Quick question for you. What's your bright spot today, buddy? My bright spot today is this weekend was the release of Breath of the Wild. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Losing words. The new Legend of Zelda game on the old switch got me back on the switch

after having been kind of a PS5 guy for a bit, you know, not, you know, getting used to that controller, jumping back to the dual sticks. Weird. Weird. Yeah. Untethered from the. It is strange. Yeah. Wireless remotes. I always come to love it. This is the thing that is most important about the Zelda conversation is I'm getting used to holding the joy con exactly. Yes. Game of the year. No, it's a lot of fun. I enjoy it. I think so. I haven't played a ton of it. I haven't had a chance to do to various things. One of the things that I've noticed about it is that it is very, you know, there's a lot of similarities to Breath of the Wild. Oh, yeah. And I think that's a good thing. Yeah. Because I think

what people liked was that game. Yeah. And if you just gave us more of that, but more complicated and like sort of evolved the game a bit. Yeah. Who's complaining about that? I don't know. Some asshole. Yeah. I'm sure there's some assholes like, Oh, I wanted something worse, but different. Yeah. I think it's I think it's been great so far. I'm only like I said a couple hours in so I don't I can't speak on this as an expert, but everything that I've encountered so far has been pretty fun. Even the things that I like I was telling you before we got started, I wandered into a cave and just got wrecked by some enemy that I should not have gone anywhere near. Even that was fun. Yeah. Multiple times I've

said I got to run away. Oh, no. Fuck. It's a Lionel got to run. But yeah, it's a lot of fun. So that's definitely going to be a bright spot for a bit. Nice. Yeah. I was wrong too. You were wrong. Well, I had said that the lead up to this game release was something I wasn't excited about because it felt kind of like, Hey, it's true. Another breath of the wild. You did. And I had entered with those feelings and I was wrong. It's far surpassed the expectations that I had so far. I think that's probably why the reviews were so ecstatic is everybody who came into it being like, I love Breath of the Wild. I'm sure this is going to be more Breath of the Wild. But you know what? You know, you

got to evolve the, you know, that whole thing. And then they it happened and everybody was like, Holy shit. Yeah. And I showed you a little bit of it. And even you were like, Whoa, I want to get in on that. Whoa. Yeah. Yeah. If I hadn't, if I hadn't just started Jedi survivor like three or four days ago, I would be in on, but that's the good news. It's waiting for you. It's ready. It's ready and waiting for whenever you decide to dip your little toes in, it'll be there. Yeah. What's your bright spot? My bright spot is a, well today on Sunday, when we record this, it's Mother's Day. Yeah. We got my mother in law. That's a busy day for your wife. Oh, two moms, two moms. Yeah. Well, we got them

some flowers, right? Right. Her mom is an engineer though. So we got the flowers. She was like, Oh, these are beautiful flowers, but you should see the box they came in. I have not seen anybody put together a box like this. Could you find out more about this box for me? And it's like, that's the brain that I love so much. You know that? Oh, this who put together this box. Listen, I've seen flowers. Yeah. I've seen flowers my entire goddamn life. Sure. I'm almost 70 years. I'll see flowers all day. You're gonna have to wake up pretty early in the morning to surprise me with a flower. I have not seen a box like this before once. That's pretty fun. That one time. Yeah. And it's great. What was so

special about this box? I don't know. I didn't, it was a conversation they had. Okay. And it wasn't something that would have triggered that in your brain anyway. No, no, no, no. I was like, box, throw it away. Yeah. Goodbye, box. So that's cool. Yeah. It's great. That's a good day. Happy Mother's Day to all the mothers and so forth and so on. You know, you we do that stuff, right? Yeah. So today, Jordan, we have an episode to go over. Oh, yeah, there's a little bit of business to cover here at the top of the show, though. So first order of business. I guess we're recording this. I'm not entirely sure how the audio is going to sound on this because we tried to get some new equipment because we've had some sound

issues. I'm sure some people have noticed them. There's been a little bit of crackling and then it didn't come through in the recording, but periodically our headphones would sort of frazzle out. And so we tried to replace a number of things and then spent three hours three hours later to get it all to work. And now we're here and we have reverted back to most of the old equipment, except with the headphone amp replaced. Yes. And so it seems to be working, but I don't know exactly like if we have the levels dialed in and everything. So so hopefully everything will sound good and what have you. But I'm just saying this in advance. If there's some screwiness, that's why we'll get it sorted out as we move forward.

The best part of this is if this doesn't work, you'll never know. And the alternative was just to say we're punting and there's no episode. Fuck it. Not going to happen. So there's that. Yeah. Second little piece of business. I decided to stay in the past. And so we're going to be talking about February 17, 2004. And there's a couple of reasons. All right. The first was our last 2004 episode was a cliffhanger. True. Because Alex was going to watch Mel Gibson on Diane Sawyer's show. And then he was going to reveal whether or not they cut out the cool things that Mel Gibson said. So if we had waited too long, this cliffhanger now would have no power. So that's one reason. Obviously storytelling.

This is more or less a rationalization. Don't worry about it. This week was there was the shooting in Texas. Yes. At the mall. Yeah. And so I was watching Alex's content intending to cover this course. But I found it to be disgusting. Yeah. He gratuitously played the videos of people dead on the ground. And all right, we'll know blood everywhere. And you know, because there I didn't see them on Twitter, but I heard from a number of people that like very graphic photos and videos and stuff were circulating on social media. And these were the things that Alex was playing. And it was horrific. Holy shit. And, you know, his narrative around it really isn't anything new. Yeah. But the potency of it, the emotional manipulation

that was going into it, just I don't even feel like it's something that can be covered. It just has to be like mentioned and condemned. I can't cover him playing, I don't know, faces of death. No, I mean, you know, on his show, like that's disgusting. I've nearly thrown up before based upon the disgusting shit that we have experienced. And that is further than wave gone. Yeah. And he was basically saying that that was part of the cartels starting a war in America and such. And he had his whole like all kinds of secret intelligence that is just made up shit that he's coming up with. It was just wasn't worth it. And I found just the going through it was not fun. And I didn't think it could be made into

an episode. All that was anything other than kind of look it out gross. This is look it out gross. This is look it out gross. This is yes. Yeah. And I felt like in the opposite direction, our last episode, we talked to Eric Lafferty was a very emotional episode for a lot of people. You know, there was a lot of feelings that you know, are brought up many of them positive. Many of them, you know, reflective of the ability for someone to persevere. And I didn't necessarily want to super heavy episodes to punch. So there's a lot of reasons why I was like, fuck this noise. But I will say I think the main one is his gore obsession. You know, you know, I can't handle that. You're doing this for

me. And here's your rationalization. That's a part of your saving my life. There's your rationalization, dad. There's there's a lot of reasons, but let's add that to the pile. Put it on there. So we're going to be in 2004 and we're going to find out what happened with Diane Sawyer interview, which I watched. But first, okay, let's take a little moment to say hello to some new ones. That's a great idea. So first, dear Brad, I'm addicted to knowledge fighting. It's all your fault. Best paralegal ever from Mara. Thank you so much. You're now a policy wonk. I'm a policy wonk. Thank you very much. Could be Mara. M a r a could be Mara. Mara. I feel like Mara is the more common morrow, morrow, Rob, morrow,

Rob, morrow, the guy from delt or okay. Next, the prophecy is being realized. Be afraid. Thank you so much. You're now a policy wonk. I'm a policy wonk. You're very much the prophecy that I would bring up a northern exposure on the show. I love that show. Five years. Hold up. Love that show. You did so good. Wanted to live out there up north. They made it look so nice. Yep. Simple small town. Next, six armed sweater. Thank you so much. You're now a policy wonk. I'm a policy wonk. Thank you very much. Thank you. Next, doing my part to dismantle conservative America by mainlining podcasts and leaving comments on YouTube videos. Thank you so much. You're now a policy wonk. I'm a policy wonk. Thank

you very much. And cannibalistic humanoid underground democratic socialist. Thank you so much. You're now a policy wonk. I'm a policy wonk. Thank you very much. And we got a technocrat in the mix. So thank you so much to Matt, but not Matt Baker or is it? Thank you so much. You're now a technocrat. I'm a policy wonk. I have risen above my enemies. I might quit tomorrow actually. I'm just going to take a little break now. A little break for me. And then we're going to come back and I'm going to start the show over. But I'm the devil. I got to be taken out of here. Fuck you. Fuck you. I got plenty of words for you. But at the end of the day, fuck you in your new world order and fuck the horse you rode

in on and all your shit. Maybe today should be my last broadcast. I mean, maybe I'll just be gone a month, maybe five years. Maybe I'll walk out of here tomorrow and you never see me again. That's really what I want to do. I never want to come back here again. I apologize to the crew and the listeners yesterday that I was legitimately having breakdowns on air. I'll be better tomorrow. No, no, but was Diane Sawyer. That's a good question. Yeah. I don't remember Diane. So I'm just now realizing that I'm just now realizing that I don't really know much about Diane Sawyer at all. She had a show. Yep. Did a lot of news programs. All right. At this point, ABC prime time. Sure. Did like the did some hour long interviews.

All right. Like like this one, like this one with Mel Gibson. All right. But it's a it's a piece where Mel Gibson is being interviewed and then a lot of other people are chiming in. Got you. You know, why is there a controversy surrounding this? Right. The passion of the Christ. So it's almost like a mini documentary with like a hut. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, a little bit. All right. Okay. So we don't need to wait very long for Alex to get into his thoughts. Okay. About Diane Sawyer's interviews here. But the first thing I'm going to cover when we get back is prime time with Diane Sawyer last night. We get back. I'll go over it. I got very angry. Something I've been doing more and more these days. When I got home

at about midnight, I think that's not a new film. My wife had recorded it for me. And so I sat down and watched the interview with Mel Gibson. And I've got some comments on this when I get back. I've got some very serious comments about Mr. Foxman and others who are a pack of liars and I am sick of them. So that's coming up as well. Damn. Okay. So I watched this hour long interview that Sawyer did with Mel Gibson and it's about what you'd expect. She's asking him questions about the movie and then he has some, she has some religious experts on to discuss some of the reasons that people are concerned about the film. The head of the ADL is interviewed and he explicitly says that he doesn't think Gibson

is anti-Semitic nor is the film necessarily anti-Semitic, but it has the potential to inflame anti-Semitic feelings, particularly surrounding the idea that Jewish people, including those alive today, bear a responsibility for killing Jesus. Gibson does also directly say that he believes there's a conspiracy all around us without specifically naming the new world order. He gets really pissed off when Dian Sawyer brings up how his dad's Holocaust denier though and his answers are not super helpful when she asks for clarification about Mel's feelings about whether or not his movie is divinely inspired. Yeah. Very weird. Yeah. You should probably have those answers ready to go. She asks if he believes

the Holocaust happened and shouldn't need to be asked, but I really was. He says yes in a roundabout way. It's not convincing. That's convincing. I do. I do appreciate the head of the ADL in 2004 with and twice. I don't think Mel's anti-Semitic whiff. Well, here's the thing. You got to consider the time. This is before a lot of the other stuff that Mel Gibson. Right. No, no, no. This is back in the time where you gave people the benefit of the doubt. Right. And just because his dad is such does not mean he is true. It's cause for concern a little bit. I mean, but you know, there's Abraham Foxman, the head of the ADL at this point is being very generous, being quite, quite fair with

his very, very generous. So overall, this wasn't great, but it also wasn't too bad. It helps provide some explanation for the reasons that some groups were offended by various aspects of the movie. Well, at the same time, it doesn't hold Mel's feet to the fire about how his dad's a giant anti-Semite who hates the Catholic church because they reject the idea that Jews are guilty of deicide. And how his new movie really gives the impression that Jews are guilty of deicide. So you're really let that line of inquiry drop pretty easily. And I think that could have been pressed on a little bit more because, you know, just because your dad has a noxious belief doesn't mean that you do as well. Right. However,

when your dad's horrible, like a noxious belief is tied to some religious belief and you share that religious belief, it leads to the question of do you also share that noxious belief that is connected to your dad's religious belief, which you do share. Right. That's, that's, I would have liked a little bit more assessment of that, but he gets so mad when she's asking about his dad. Diane, you gotta, you gotta drop it. Wow. Wow. See, that's, that's crazy to me. I mean, but that's, that's TV journalism, you know, like that's insane. Yeah. Here's what you see even watching it. It made me uncomfortable. Yeah. No. I mean, you look at that and you see somebody who's, who's right on the cusp of a, you can't handle the

truth monologue where he reveals that he hates all the Jews. You give him that rope. You let him go. Excuse me. I'm sorry. Are you telling me to drop this? Why do you want me to drop this sir? Please continue on until eventually he's like, yes, the Jews killed Christ. Frost Nixon would not have been Frost Nixon if there hadn't been push. Yeah, you got to pushing on it. You got to push on it, man. I think, I think she let it go a little bit too easily, but I guess, I mean, like, I got the sense from watching it that like he probably would have left. Wow. I mean, that says all you need to know. I guess. Hey, no, because here's the problem. Like it's centered around like you're trying to make

me disown my dad, you know, like, sure, sure, sure, sure. There's a lot of ways that Mel could leave and play it with like a, that's, that's not evidence that I have. That's fair. That's fair. It would play to whoever it plays to and it wouldn't to whoever doesn't want to accept it. That's true. So anyway, Alex, watch this interview. Okay. Or did he? I'm unclear last night. I went and worked on a film that I'm putting together and at about midnight, I got home and my wife had taped prime time with Diane Sawyer for me because Mel Gibson was on the show and I wanted to see what they tried to say about the passion and what his response was. And my wife had just let the, the tape run. So I had two hours

of shows on there. And so I just hit rewind and sat down and started, did we need that detail waiting for it to conclude it's rewinding. And I got impatient and hit play. And it stopped on Abraham Foxman of the anti defamation league, which is really the defamation league of freedom. And it stopped and saying how scary the film was and how scary it was that these Christians were crying and everybody was so silent after he snuck into a screening of it. And Mrs. C. Farr, Diane Sawyer said to him, she said, well, is Mel Gibson anti Semitic is his film anti Semitic? And he said, no, it's not, but it's still dangerous. The point that Foxman was making was that the film is super emotionally powerful. It's

just one long torture scene, basically. And it's very hard to sit through something like that and not have it make some kind of impact. When there's a discussion of the movie being scary, it's because of the history of passion plays and how they've been used in the past to target Jewish populations. One of the experts they talked to also made the point that there are aspects of how things are presented in the movie that will be experienced very differently by a viewer who has experience of being called things like Christ killer. Yeah. You got to understand where people are coming from right a little bit. Right. There's context. Yeah. Yeah. All in all, I think it's a fairly fair piece. If anything, it's way

too easy on Mel and too unwilling to make more direct statements, particularly about his dad. I can't help but feel like the tone would have been a bit different had this been like after 2006, which is when well got caught drunk driving and yelled at the cop about how Jews are responsible for all the wars in the world and asked if she was a Jew. Yeah. I mean, in the now we live in, it seems very easy to go back into the 2004 and be like, do you see how he's doing the stuff? And then go back to 2006 and be like, I told you so. And then go back to now and be like, why didn't we do anything about that? He's going to direct to the next movie that wins an Oscar or whatever it is. We're doing great. Daddy's home to

me. Exactly. Like, what are we doing? So what do something? It's, it is weird because I can understand why people are a little bit reticent to make like full like accusations or whatever. Sure. Sure. Sure. But we live past 2006. So we can see like, maybe you should have. You should have done it. You should have gone with maybe we know in advance. Yeah. So Alex talked to Mel Gibson's dad and he had some inside info about what happened in the piece. And man, they fucked up. Uh-oh. And I talked to Hutton a few days ago before this air and Mel Gibson's father, who's again, just an expert on the New World Order. We really respect his opinion on this. He said, well, I don't want you to talk about this

on air until after it airs. But after it does, you know, you're welcome to they interviewed Mel for three and a half hours and then ended up, I guess, about 12, 15 minutes. I didn't I didn't time it out. Or Mel's actually talking on the screen. He did a great job. I mean, most people, they talk for three and a half hours. The news media is going to find something damning to use against him. But they were unable to do that in this interview. Were they, but Hutton told me that Mel told him that he, he said, you know, when this comes out, I think I'm just going to go hide somewhere because of all the heat that's been on me. And I think I'm going to hide somewhere where nobody can find me. I think I'm going to pitch

a tent next to the weapons of mass destruction wherever they are. And you know, I predicted on the show yesterday without, you know, telling me without stealing Mel Gibson's lines, that that would never be in the piece. Oh man, they fucked up. They cut this out. And then Hutton had given Alex the inside info so he can bring it out and be like, you're too afraid. Yep. You're too. Unfortunately, that joke was in the piece. Oh no. But what about Mel Gibson Superstar, the box office lethal weapon? Yeah, you want to see? Can you go back to making those films after this? You know, I just I kind of, I don't know. I don't know. I don't feel like I want to. I don't feel like I want to get in front of a camera

anymore. I like getting cut to just being a slob behind a camera and watching other people look good. You know, I might not hurry back. I might go and go somewhere. No one can find me. You know where that is? You know, it's the place that no one can find you. I was thinking of pitching my tent right next to the weapons of mass destruction. Then no one would find me. In the meantime, I wish they would if I was if I was Mel, I'd have been like, could you please cut that out? I didn't. I have two. I have two thoughts about this. The first is Alex clearly hasn't seen this. Right. He didn't watch the whole thing. No, he said he didn't watch the whole thing. He maybe watched a couple of minutes of it. He

said he paused because he got bored. He got tired of rewinding, but there's still an implication that he went back and watched the whole thing. Sure. Because he's covering it and he has strong opinions about it. You know, he implies that and he's making a direct claim that something got cut out of it that was in the piece. Right. Right. So, you know, whatever evidence is if he that he watched it, we're going to find out later that he definitely didn't. Okay. But he's still at the beginning of the show pretending that he had. Sure. The other thing I'm thinking about though is that like at this time, there was a really strong feeling that that would be a good bet to make that they would cut that out. Yeah. Because there was such a weird feeling about

like dissenting against the war. Sure. Sure. You know, it's well, we all we all saw what happened to the Dixie Chicks and we were all like, Oh, they silenced us. It's understandable to have a feeling that like Dian Sawyer would never allow that in. Yeah. Yeah. And so I understand where Alex is coming from in his prediction. I think that he should have confirmed whether or not his prediction was correct before he celebrated. Yeah. But boy, I feel like I feel like at that time period it goes the opposite direction. You know, like I feel like they were more willing to cut things out that made people look ugly back then than they are now. Because now, I mean, now think about all the times that we're there like, Oh, footage on our unearthed from blah, blah, blah,

blah, this person saying the N word 300 times to their mom or whatever it is, you know, like that's that's probably on every editor's tape for the past 30 years from some asshole and they just delete it and they're like, Oh, well, we can't use it because then we won't have access to this guy anymore. Probably. Yeah. Probably. Now, that that is almost certainly true. But also the well, maybe not everybody, but a lot of like the aspect of critiquing the war in this way and saying like there is, you know, there's no mass weapons of mass destruction, you know, they'll never find me there. Yeah, or whatever, you know, that is like cutting that out might make him look better in as much as, you know, you couldn't see some kind of a blowback from some sort of a career consequence.

Yeah. Leaving it in is I mean, not like it's it's not like a brave move necessarily, but it is at least mildly risky risky. Yeah, I would say so. And so I get this, but I just don't get Alex going on air and talking about this shit without having watched the thing. It's weird. Yeah, that doesn't make any sense. Yeah, that's just that's not even laziness. That's insanity. You know, that's not I wish it laziness is like skimming through it at like three times speed, you know, like, uh, I'll listen to it. Okay. Yeah, this is just insane. Yeah. So Alex, the part that he's clearly seen is this part that has Foxman, the head of the ADL in it. And so he's decided that the narrative is that Foxman is backing off like he's, he's made all kinds of like rampant accusations and screamed

about how Mel Gibson's an anti-Semite. And now he's backing off because he realized that his plot didn't work. Oh man. So if I understand correctly, this documentary about how the film might be anti-Semitic is responded to by Alex, uh, in a way such as singling out the only Semitic person there and being strongly anti. I mean, I, yeah, I'm the only reason I'm, I'm pausing slightly is I don't, I think there might have been another like Jewish scholar who was interviewed, but yeah. Yeah. Yeah, essentially. Yeah. Yeah. Now, why is the ADL backing off now? And why is the Simon Wiesenthal Center backing off demonizing the passion? Because their lives didn't work. It blew up in their face. Mel Gibson traveled this country from end to end, uh, screening the film to hundreds of large crowds.

And, uh, when people went and saw it, Paul Harvey and others went to see it. They said, I don't get it. I don't understand how this is anti-Semitic. In fact, the ADL, I already hate Jews. Now injected that into the debate where if somebody watches it, that's all they're going to be thinking about now. In fact, the ADL is actually creating, uh, a, a, a overall dislike of Jews. Whoa. So if anybody, uh, is, is, is hurting Jews, I'd have to say it's the ADL. Calm down, Alex. Wow. This is, go save that for your private conversations with Hut. I like that twisting. I like twisting things around until you get to the point where, ah, see the only person who's really hurting slaves, all these slaves, especially the people who are

enslaved who are complaining about it. Oh my God. They're the ones who make me do terrible things to them. It's awful. Why are they making me do such bad things? Right. I mean, like it's the same kind of, uh, lines that some of the JBS, uh, John Birch Society folks had during the civil rights time. It's like these people who are pointing out inequalities are making white people racist. They're the ones who are making us be more inequality. We would, we're, uh, our dream is to be as equal as possible. Totally. Number one thing we love to do, but when you point us out that we're not, it just makes us want to add more. That's not crazy. That's whiteness. It's very common as a trend throughout his, uh, his thought. It does seem to be that way.

So, uh, Alex, like I said, did, he didn't watch this whole thing for sure. Okay. They made a good point in the piece, one of the pastors they were interviewing that when Christians see a cross in major surveys, they feel, you know, love and compassion and Christ's sacrifice. And that when they quote interview Jews and they see a cross, they feel threatened and that it's, you know, this bad symbol. And that's ridiculous. Also, uh, Mrs. Council on Foreign Relations. That's ridiculous. Diane Sawyer, Mrs. Antigone, uh, who's been caught, you know, putting out all these stilted and manipulated the news pieces. She said, well, what about Hitler? You know, he, he, uh, he, he said passion plays were very useful

to, you know, show the Jews are bad and Bill Gibson came back with the best answer. He's so smart. He said, Hitler wasn't a cultist. Hitler was a devil worshiper. You know, that's what I say to people who call him to this show and like Hitler, Hitler was a devil worshiper. That's your problem. Part of the fool society. Hitler was part of the show and bones organizations that were founded in Germany. That's the facts. And 99% of people you talk to don't know that about Hitler. In fact, the ADL and others print around. It's what we don't know about an example of Christianity targeting Jews. And I resent that. I resent them saying a devil worshiper, a represents Christians. Adolf Hitler was an occultist. So whatever you want to say about

Hitler's specific religious inclinations, that's an argument for another day. Neither Diane Sawyer nor anyone in this piece said that Hitler was an example of a Christian. They just said that Hitler believed that passion plays were a useful tool in creating hatred against Jewish people. Right. That's all. That's it. Alex is responding to a point that no one made because his ability to respond to this piece at all relies on that. Also, it's painfully obvious that Alex didn't watch the whole thing. He thinks they cut out Mel's WMD Zinger and all the specific things he's mentioning are all from around the same five minutes in the middle that he stopped at when he got impatient with the VHS Rewinding. That sounds exactly right. The reason that some Jewish people

expressed a negative feeling towards seeing a cross is because of that history of being accused of deicide and the atrocities that have been carried out against Jewish people using that accusation as justification. It's not something that is universal, but it's something that some Jewish people who were talked to and involved in responding to surveys. I got some crazy news for you. Throughout history, a lot of people were not stoked to see the cross on other people walking towards them. Not stoked about it. They were like, that's not good. Those people are murderers. Those people wearing that cross murder people. Crusades had some negative signifying with the cross. Oh boy. Talk about your evangelists, your missionaries, and the like. Not a lot of people

like those guys walking around with crosses. You can understand some context to negative associations around this symbol without a hatred of the religion itself. It is possible for those to be discrete things. So it's interesting to me to see how little Alex cares about preparing for his job, even at this point in his career. I always like to imagine that he was a real hard worker in these earlier days when he got lazy later, but he can't even be bothered to watch an hour-long ABC interview before he spends a sizable chunk of his show complaining about it and using it to argue that the ADL is responsible for making anti-Semitism worse. Here's the thing, our investigation. We've done 2015 investigations. We've done all that.

We've done investigations. This one doesn't seem like there's an investigation element to it. We're learning. What we're learning though is that I think naturally a lot of people, me included, thought we're watching a decline. We're seeing him go from where he is now, and then we're going to go back up to where he started from. He was just at the same spot the whole time. Well, here's what I think. Here's the thought that I'm coming around to. I think that you're right, but there's an aesthetic decline. Yes. That, I think, is he has some traits that change that definitely appear much more different. Sure. He is all... Well, I mean, that's just like age though, you know?

On speed. Right. I'm slower than I was when I was a young 25-year-old or whatever it is. I'm saying he was faster later because he was doing drugs. Oh, well, he did do a lot of drugs later. That's definitely true. Yeah, that's true. There's the sloppiness of clear progression of alcoholism. Yeah, that's definitely true. There's those things, but some of that is kind of aesthetic. Now, here's the other thing. I think that there is a big decline from 2008-2009 times, which is another period that we've watched to present, but I think it's a parabola. Okay. I think he's kind of... So we're in the upward

ride right now. I think he's similar in this 2003-2004 to more present times, but there was an attempt to make yourself look a little bit less of a horrible toxic figure in those times because that was around when he was getting a bit more media attention. There was more of a mainstreaming that came along with the Tea Party and stuff. I don't know this to be true for sure, but the episodes in 2009 and that time period that I've listened to, that's where the impression, I think, of the decline comes from. Right. I think he might have shaved and was putting on a little bit more of a professional face around that point. Yeah. Yeah. So now he's in the minors. All right.

Gets called up to Tea Party era, has his cup of coffee, and then after he gets that contract, just lets it go, gains a lot of weight, starts doing too many drugs. But he spent his money that he got during that time to buy the tea. I mean, it did. It was a smart move. So he has no boss. Yeah, exactly. He's a player manager who can't pitch. He's like, scratch pencil me in for every single game. That's kind of how it feels. That's fair. So Alex has not watched this interview, but he has some important things to say about it, about how they cut out everything. Okay. So if you want to talk about the

prime time piece you're welcome to, but notice that that a lot of what Mel Gibson had to say that was really important, didn't make it into the cut. We'll be right back, folks. Stay with us. He didn't watch it. He didn't watch it. He's making these declarative statements about like things that they cut out. They cut out all the important stuff. He doesn't know that. And here's the thing. It's not important whether or not anything Mel Gibson said was cut out or not. The reality is immaterial. There's a party line for Alex and his ilk, and it resonates with the emotional reality that the audience has.

It feels true that they cut out all the important stuff at the interview. And so that's what Alex is reporting to them. It really is the definition of telling the audience what they want to hear. And Alex knows what the audience wants well enough that he doesn't even have to watch the show to tell you that the shit was cut out. That's the narrative he was going to run with before his wife hit record on the VCR. That was always going to be the thing. And if they didn't cut stuff out, then his inside information from Hutton Gibson is meaningless. It was in thing. They have to cut stuff out. Right. There's no, there's no payoff to that otherwise.

Right. And not just that. I mean, and cutting stuff out is the, is the perfect thing. They didn't cut that out. The thing that you said they didn't cut out. Oh, well, I forgot that part. But there's stuff you didn't see that they cut out is an unprovable, you know, like, oh, okay. Well, then let's go get the full three and a half hour tape, Alex. Well, here's where things get fun with that. Okay. Okay. Because Alex goes to break and immediately here we go. All right. I don't know what I'd do without my wife. She called me during the break and said, honey, I didn't take the entire prime time piece. I guess a few minutes of it.

They did leave the quote about the weapons of mass destruction, which I couldn't imagine how they wouldn't. So I guess I was wrong when I predicted they wouldn't. And you know, out of three and a half hours of an interview, only 15 minutes of it or so. I mean, what an amazing quote that Mel Gibson was going to hide out in a tent next to the weapons of mass destruction. What an amazing after this movie comes out. And that quote was in there. So there was now, of course, I don't have it on tape. I have mostly hopefully if somebody's got it, you'll, uh, you'll send it to me. Yeah. Someone's, someone's going to need to send that in. Oh my God. So apparently

his wife didn't record the whole thing. And Alex didn't realize that somehow, which is weird. Like, I don't get it. Like, this is more suspicious now. Like, wouldn't she have told him that sometime before right now when he's on air? How did he get impatient waiting for the tape to rewind if there was only like five minutes of the show recorded? None of this makes sense. I'd love to get to the bottom of this, but I suspect there's no hope. My guess is that someone at the office, maybe even his wife pointed out that he was completely wrong about the WMD joke. And now he has to try and cover his ass before callers confront him about it, which is what would happen. So he just comes up with this baffling story about his wife's

recording. Nanas. This makes no sense. No, I don't believe this. What human beings behave like this in this. And all we're doing is watching. I need to understand, I need to understand this. We are talking about all, all we're talking about is watching a pre-recorded segment. Yeah. Yeah. That's it. It's, he's trying to watch an hour long ABC prime time Diane Sawyer video. And it's a mystery. And it is, it's turned into a comedy of errors. I'm baffled. All you have to do is watch the tape. Right. That would have been the easiest thing to do. But he didn't do that. No, he didn't do that. But he thinks he did it. I don't know if that's okay. How could he possibly have thought that he watched the whole thing? You know, those prime time ABC things,

they're like those overly produced. So when they're going to break, they're like, when we come back. Yeah. If, if it cut off in the middle of like a commercial, uh, or like before they went to break, you would know if it cut off in the middle of a segment, you'd be like, Hey, that was weird. It cut off. This makes no sense. None. None. None. None. No, there's no, there's no explanation that isn't just, I didn't watch it. The idea that his wife called and said that makes no sense either. Why is she listening to it? Does she listen to him every day? She works for him at this point. She's like his webmaster and all that stuff. Right. Right. But I mean like, come on. She probably listened some, I don't know. That's bleak. Oh boy. So anyway, take some calls. Okay.

And, uh, one of the callers wants to complain about the interview and it's so dumb. Alex, hasn't seen it. Why are we doing this? Let's talk to Gary in Ohio. Gary, go ahead. Hi, Alex. How you doing? Good. Hey, a couple of quick thoughts on the interview last night. Um, I watched the piece. I was actually very pleased with the results. I was surprised. I noticed that Diane Sawyer, I swear she kept baiting him with these kind of questions. I get things about Hitler and all that. And it's like, uh, well, he kept coming up with a brilliant answer. It's like you're like preventing the weapons of mass destruction. But it just is, I got kind of like, I wanted to hear what he had to say, but I really didn't want to hear what she had to say, you know? The questions

were just, I don't know. I feel like that's not uncommon for you, sir. It seemed like you were really off the wall. Well, they were, and it was an attempt to try to trap him. And I think that she failed miserably. How do you know that? You didn't watch it. I think she failed miserably. Right. Well, and she was so disingenuous trying to trap him. What? You watched three minutes of this thing. She was laying traps. That's why I turned it off. I was like, Jesus, there's too many traps. He watched three minutes, got mad at the head of the ADL and turned it off and grabbed a bottle of whiskey or something. Yeah. I mean that is, that does seem like the mystery solved. That seems more like the, uh, no, you're so wrong. This mystery goes so much deeper. I

think we just had all the endings of Clue wrapped up in one right there. No, no, because there's going to be a twist later that you don't see coming. Okay. Um, but yeah, man, everybody loves it. Everybody loved that interview. Sure. And Alex, again, except for whenever the women talk, that was a, that was a problem. Sure. And I don't like the person asking questions. Yeah. In this interview. Yeah. All right. Weird. So, uh, but they love the weapons of mass destruction life. Of course. It's so funny. Huge. Let's talk to Roger in Pennsylvania. Roger, go ahead. Thanks, Alex. That was such a superbly funny line. Well, just to make sure I've never found a two-shade mail. Hey, I wish I had that on tape, uh, because, uh, obviously I watched it and didn't see that.

You, you, you, because I predicted, I didn't make a prediction. I said, she probably won't put that in there, but they did. Why do you think they did that? Oh, well, who knows? But yeah, who knows? Let's move along. Who does that? I like that answer. That is the best answer I've heard. Oh, maybe because our worldview is, uh, stupid and wrong. I don't know. We're crazy. Let's move on. Who knows? What do you got? I believe Alex called it a prediction earlier in the show. In the earlier in the show. Uh, but yeah, I'm going to walk that back since I was super wrong. I was so wrong. I wouldn't call it a prediction. I would call it a bet. I made a bad bet.

So like I mentioned, Alex wants to make this all about Foxman, uh, the head of the ADL. Yeah. And so here's, uh, him doing that. I'd notice she didn't add to that panel any orthodox scholars from any faith. Yeah. That would be an aftermath of her purpose. What did you think of, uh, Foxman? I mean, he's normally pretty aggressive. He looked like a deer in the headlights. Well, I'm glad you brought that up because I think basically the reason he backed off is now finally that the movie has come out. He better shut up because he's going to lose even his no toast liberal Jewish supporters, uh, because I'll see he's, uh, the full of it if he doesn't conveniently forget what he said. Well, that's it. I mean, that's it. It's easy for the FBI or

the Southern Poverty Law Center or the ADL to demonize some little known person and to persecute them and lie about them. But they went up against Mel Gibson. Mel Gibson went coast to coast, showed the film and, and, and Jews, Gentiles, you name it, saw it and said, what is the big deal? Why are they saying this? Uh, so, uh, uh, Foxman has really blown his foot off. Uh, I mean, he went coast to coast showing the film as a promotional thing because he didn't have a distribution deal. Yeah. And they were like specifically targeting like evangelical churches and like, uh, religious groups, uh, to, uh, it's a marketing plan. Yeah. That was the idea. Yeah. So great. Yeah. Anyway, Alex's entire angle on the story is that Abraham Foxman, the head of the

ADL is doing an about face in this interview because Alex watched a couple of minutes where Foxman said that he doesn't think that Mel Gibson's anti-Semitic, which is a turnaround. Alex believes that he's seen Foxman call Gibson and his movie anti-Semitic in the past. So this is a softening of his position. In reality, Foxman hadn't said those things, but Alex constructed narratives where criticism of Gibson and the plans for this movie were reported as attacks on Gibson and accusations that he's anti-Semitic. Right. Alex has built a story line out of his fantasies that does not really connect to reality. Foxman and plenty of other religious experts were very concerned about how the plan that Gibson had for this movie would turn out. Gibson's dad

was no secret, nor was the fact that Mel himself was a member of the breakaway branch of Catholicism that denies the Vatican's legitimacy since the Second Council. There is a way that this story could be brought to the screen in a responsible way. And there's a way that seemed more like what someone like Mel Gibson might do. And many right thinking people were worried about that and voiced that concern to Alex. That was them calling Gibson anti-Semitic, which ironically is accurate, but isn't what they were saying. Right. Foxman as well as a lot of other folks from many different religious groups were able to re-descript in advance and they were super concerned that it seemed like the movie was setting out to make the Jewish people the primary antagonists in the film

with the Romans just kind of being there and having their hands tied by Jewish influence. We're white. What are we going to do? Hurt people? Also, people were really not thrilled with the scene in the early version of the film where the high priest Caiaphas says, quote, his blood be on us and our children, which is a line from Matthew that's been used historically to hurl accusations of deicide on all people of Jewish ancestry to the present day. Boy, you can just change that. That line was cut from the film. And an associate of Gibson told the New York Times, quote, it didn't work in the focus screenings. Maybe it was thought to be too hurtful or taken not in the way that it was intended. It has been used terribly over the years. It's kind of fun

that Mel Gibson was so obsessed with the pointing out that, you know, he's making the most accurate portrayal of the passion. And yet he was swayed by focus screenings. A little ridiculous. Yeah, you know, it is. That is an interesting point. If you can take it out of the movie, you should be able to take it out of the book. I think there should be a novelization of the Bible based upon the movies made of the Bible. Well, here's the thing. If that were the standard, then you could set out to make a Bible movie and just make it wacky. Oh hell yeah, I could. And then now you're going to demand that the Bible be changed. I don't see any change from any other better use religious behavior. Look, I don't want to get in the weeds on this. My point just is that Mel Gibson

was like one of the biggest things that he was saying was like, Hey, you don't have a problem with me. You have a problem with the Bible. You know, like that kind of stuff. Like I'm being just so accurate to the Bible. And you know, there's clearly they were doing focus screenings. So go fuck yourself. But then second, like what is accuracy? Is context necessary? If you are really just using the gospels and not external context and historical information, then you're not really being accurate. Right. Right. I mean, but in his point of view, in his mind, he is telling you the accurate story because the Bible is the revealed word of God, which means it's true. And the other context around it is people lying because they're the devil. Yeah.

But he's also like using other stuff that he's pretending not to use. Well, sure. I mean, you can't use that. Obviously I know I used it, but you can't use that. Right. Like there's the like revelations of this nun named Anne Catherine Emmerich. Well, sure. But that wasn't in the Bible because they forgot to add it. That's not why. So like, but he was like very swayed by her visions of the passion. Sure. So like there's one of the articles that I was reading points out that there's at least one example of something in the movie that is directly from those visions as opposed to being biblical. And so like there's also kind of anti-Semitic leanings on Emmerich's part. Sure. Sure. Anyway, one thing that Foxman did say was, quote, not in the interview with

Sawyer. This was something that he had said previously. Right. He said, quote, recent statements by Mel Gibson paint the portrait of an anti-Semite. This is sort of calling him an anti-Semite, but it's kind of artful in a way that it's not really calling him one. It's just these actions are those that an anti-Semite would make. Yeah. I mean, that's that's a skip away from if it looks like a duck, you know, like it's the same fucking thing. This wasn't about the movie though. This was about some comments that Mel had made towards the end of 2003. Peter Boyle of the New Yorker the New Yorker went to a rough cut screening of the passion and then spent some time with Mel and some of the stuff he was saying wasn't great. For instance, Gibson was talking about the that

cut scene of Caiaphas and said, quote, I wanted it in. My brother said I was wimping out if I didn't include it. It happened. It was said, but man, if I included it in there, they'd be coming after me at my house. They'd kill me. Boyle makes it very clear in the article that the they Gibson is referring to are the people at the ADL and Simon Wiesenthal Center who had criticized a him previously. Yeah, that's right. At another point, Gibson got mad that someone on CNN mentioned his father and said, quote, I don't want to be dissing my father. He never denied the Holocaust. He just said there were fewer than six million. I don't want to have them dissing my father. I mean, he's my father. I don't know about you, but if my father made a practice of going around in the

media and downplaying the Holocaust, I don't think I'd mind people dissing him. Oh, I'd diss the shit out of my Holocaust denying father. Do you know what he does? He denies the Holocaust. Yeah. Yeah. I do not get to not diss him unless I think he's got a point. I think that so many people are like, you know, the blood tie, though, you know, you can't you can't condemn your father, even if you think that his ideas are horrible. That noise. You can't deny the Holocaust. You can't deny the Holocaust. My brother, I'm with you. It's just not compliment. I think I agree with you, but I think that there are some people who like would be like, Oh, it's so complicated. Sure. Sure. Sure. No, I understand. I think that's how you get a little bit of the free pass that gives you get right at

this point. I get into trouble a lot. You know, people are like, Oh, Jordan, you don't focus on the shades of gray. Now, sometimes I think that's the opposite. All right. 50 of them. Sometimes, sometimes things are very black and white and we overcomplicate them like, for instance, you can't deny the Holocaust black and white. No complications. None. Yeah. Yeah. Even if you're my dad, even if you're my fucking dad, man. So up till this point before he'd said that this paints the portrait, right? Foxman had been pretty clear that he didn't think Gibson or the film was anti-Semitic, but that it was quote insensitive. After that New Yorker piece, Foxman said that his comments painted the portrait of an anti-Semite, which isn't really the same, but you know,

there's no huge change, of course, for Foxman, but Alex needs there to be for some kind of a narrative to stick. Yeah. Like Mel Gibson has risen above. You need to have some sort of slot. Yeah. There needs to be a plot element happening. Right. Yeah. When in reality, the criticism has been largely the same. The exact same thing. Yeah. The whole time. Yep. Yep. So I told you there'd be a twist. Sure. With our mystery about Alex not watching this. Mr. Body isn't dead at all. Maybe you should be concerned not about Mr. Body, but Alex's body. Uh oh. All right, my friends, all ready in to the second hour of this global transmission against tyranny. I rarely get sick, but it's my excuse for being a bit

I think the operative word is a dingy today. Is it? I started getting a sore throat last night when I was working on a new film and then I got home and didn't sleep too well and I'm sitting here on air running a fever right now with a raw throat. So just bear it with me if I'm not my normal chipper self. I probably shouldn't even do a radio show if I'm sick because, again, I got home last night and my wife had taped Mel Gibson on the national show on ABC with Diane Sawyer prime time and I guess we hadn't taped the whole thing and I'm like, yep, I knew it. They didn't talk about weapons of mass destruction. See, I knew she'd cut that out and indeed it was in there. So that's, uh, that's encouraging. Your wife cut it out. No, he had a fever. He was, uh,

he was just completely delirious from this fever and sore throat that he had. Yeah. COVID 2004. Boy, this reminds me of whenever he suddenly had a terrible cough at a trial recently. Suddenly a terrible cough appeared. I don't know. Like I, I don't think of Alex as a tough it out kind of guy. Um, and I don't up till this point and after I saw no signs of a scratchy throat. There is nothing like there. This is just pathetic. Just trying to come up with more excuses for why he hasn't seen. He could have just, but he refuses to just come out and say, no, I didn't watch all of it or whatever. It's, it's, it can't take responsibility for his own decisions for something as trivial as I didn't watch the Diane Sawyer thing. He cannot take responsibility. You know,

it would be so great. Just come on in and be like, look, I didn't get around to the Diane Sawyer thing. I was working on this film. Uh, I know you probably want to talk about it. So let's save those calls for tomorrow. We'll watch it tonight. Boom. Could do that. No problem. Instead he had to try and bluff. You got to bluff. You got to bluff. Sometimes you get caught on your bluff, but that doesn't mean you stop trying. It's amazing. That is a terrible idea. Yeah. So Alex wants to complain about some racial, uh, grievance that he has about whiteness. Sure. Um, and he uses a story that I, I looked into and ended up spiraling into some weird information. All right. Uh, in public schools all over the nation, uh, if your child writes the word gun

in an essay for English class, uh, they're arrested, they're expelled, the CPS is sent to the home. Well, your child, you know, in a story wrote about a gun. You know, it's thought crime. A few years ago, there was a case in Idaho where a black, um, football coach assaulted a white woman who was a reporter because she took his picture at the end of the game and the woman's husband jumped over the bleachers and ran up to the black man and the black man called him a racial name. This was in the newspaper and we had him on the show and, and the white man called him a racial name back. Uh, and, and, uh, he was arrested for the racial term. Uh, and the black man wasn't arrested for assaulting the woman. And my point is, is that this is

thought crime in America and, and they're really trying to set this up. They're, they're doing this. So Alex has some details off about this story because it's not really an actual event that happened in terms of how his mind relates to it. This is just a vague memory that he pulls up to justify his feelings of intense racial persecution over his whiteness. Also, even if everything Alex was saying was true, that's not a thought crime. Explicit actions were made, not thoughts. I'm gonna, I'm gonna go ahead and do this now because I feel like we've, we've done this, this fun rabbit hole thing before and I want to have my predictions in. Okay. All right. Here's my prediction. Do you want to write them down or do you want to, do you want to verbalize them?

Uh, no, I'll verbalize them. Okay. So here's what I think. Here's how this normally goes down. All right. We have a story that Alex is misrepresenting and this guy's a real piece of shit. All right. Then you come back. We've got another story in like 2012 where he was arrested for blah, blah, blah. Then you come back and then in 2014 he was caught with like 300 pounds of explosives in his fucking room. And then in 2017, finally he was arrested on domestic violence charges and he's going to do 20 years or something. Not exactly. Um, the guy himself, there's a little bit of like manipulation on that front and then there's an offshoot character. Okay. All right. That is more important. All right. That's what I'm okay. So in the real world,

this guy wasn't a coach that is involved. It was actually a referee at a high school football game. The woman in question was a reporter named Kimberly Ray who is trying to take pictures of the referees specifically because she thought they had decided the outcome of the game and one of the teams wasn't going to go to state because of it. Right. She told ABC quote, a lot of penalties were called throughout the game and I decided I was going to include that perspective in my stories. So she felt that there were a lot of penalties in this high school football game and decided that a reporting was going to reflect that she tried to take pictures of the refs after the game was over while they were leaving to the locker room. She was asked not to take their picture and according

to her, she stopped and was going to leave when one of them grabbed her camera and tried to wrestle it from her. She yelled for her husband who came to her defense. The ref put up his hands and said, according to the husband, I ain't touched her. This, like I said, is a story that's coming from her husband Lonnie Ray. Sure. So at no point in his telling of it to ABC, did the referee call him any racist names. Right. That did not happen in his telling of the story. Right. However, he immediately stormed towards the locker room and found the county commissioner there, which should give you a sense of how small of a town we're talking about. So Lonnie told ABC that he said to the, the county commissioner, you bring that and up here. I want to kick

his fucking ass and it was not an end. No, I understand. It was a full. I think we all got the hard R in your voice. Oh, yes. Yeah. And thus Lonnie Ray was looking at charges involving hate speech, mostly because he was using fighting words and making threats while using a racial slur, which could easily be argued implies some greater desire to commit violence against the person because of their race. Yeah. Lonnie didn't get convicted of the hate crime portion of the charges, but he did get charged with assault and he ended up getting seven days in jail, which is lawyer appeal. Then the conviction was eventually vacated. This all happened in a town in Idaho with a population of around 7,000. And it happened three and a half years in the

past at this point when Alex is on air. Amazing that this is like fresh in his mind as some kind of a, oh no thing. I mean, that is, that is a, that tells you exactly what sticks, you know? Yeah. Sometimes you see what spaghetti stuck on the wall and you're like, really? How about that? So Lonnie's lawyer was a guy named Edgar Steele who made his bread and butter defending white supremacists in court. Great. He had recently at that point defended Aryan Nation's founder, Richard Butler, and he would later go on to be the lawyer slash spokesperson for the white supremacist pop duo Prussian blue. I don't know if you know them, but they were like 12 years old. They were 12 year old twins who would sing like white man, rise up. Wow. Yeah. It was horrible.

Oh yes. That's child abuse. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's child abuse for sure. They're in that documentary that Louis Thoreau did. Louis meets the Nazis and like it's horrifying. It's just so scary to see them like just repeating these things that obviously they don't understand. Yeah. Yeah. They can't. Later in life, they still apparently have some problematic views and maybe are Holocaust revisionists, but they have also said like we were just repeating things that we didn't even understand. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's horrifying. So anyway, his lawyer, this guy at the Idaho football game, his lawyer was their spokesperson. Great. So he's a piece of shit. Wow. Yeah. Wow. Yep. He also published a book called quote defensive racism and unapologetic

examination of racial differences to something he clearly has very strong feelings about. He really only took Lonnie's case because he thought it could be something that he could take to the Supreme Court to strike down hate speech laws all across the country. That is the game that was being right. Right. Right. He was case shopping. Yes. Yeah. I found Steel's book and man, if I were trying to defend myself after I yelled a racist threat at somebody, I would definitely not want him as my lawyer. It's wild. It starts out by doing a little light teasing around the idea that maybe being a racist isn't so bad and it's just kind of acute. Put your preconceptions aside. Hey, you can pick them back up at the end of the book. Listen,

you think, take everything you know about the word racist. Yeah. And just forget it. You could pick it back up at the end of the book. Start all over. All I'm asking is for 150 pages of your time. You can't learn until you unlearn. Right. Yeah. Then by the end of it, here's where we get. Okay. Quote, the Zionist cabal atop America quite simply will not step aside peacefully, nor will it allow the truth to be told to but a very few. They control the airwaves, the theaters, the newspapers, the magazines, America's Zionist masters direct the efforts of the armed forces, both abroad and at home, which regularly are purged of anybody who gives the appearance of dissent. That's quite an escalation. It is. Yeah. He lays out a bizarre

fantasy where Mexico and Mexican Americans reclaim the Southwest and create Astlan and black people, they claim the South as New Africa. Okay. White people are going to be up north, but it's important to remember that quote, Florida will be a special case due to its large population of Cuban and Caribbean extraction. How it will shake out is anybody's guess, but it will end up being a white no-go zone. Of that, you can be sure. I appreciate somebody who's given me the good warnings in advance. You know, like now that I know eventually it will be a no-go zone for white people. Sure. I'll just say. How it's going to shake out exactly anybody's guess. I assume that the white nationalist president of the United States

will retire there to his second White House that will, I guess, eventually become a fort. It's anybody's guess. It's anybody's guess. So there's also going to be New Israel, which is, of course, centered around New York, or as Steel calls it, New Tel Aviv. Okay. Wow. That's just racist beyond racist. Oh, yeah. That's pointless racism. Yep. Canada will throw in their lot with this New America and quote, thus the New America becomes pretty much a white homeland with its borders imposed upon it by others in the main. Only the presence of Jews may be problematic and by far may prove to be the single most difficult task confronting New America. The single most difficult task that you've just broken up the country into like hostile quadrants. And the most

difficult thing for you is the idea that Jews might still be there. Well, I mean, they might, they might, you know, they don't have their own full nation size. I don't know what to tell you. You can just see how much this guy is, how anti-Semitic he is deeply and fucked up. That is insane. Yeah. So we can wrap this up with some good news, though. Edgar Steele was arrested and convicted in 2011 of trying to hire somebody to kill his wife. 2011. I was one year off. I was one year off. He was sent to 50 years in jail for trying to put a car bomb. So you had explosives right to. It's not bad. Yeah. It's not bad. He died in prison in 2014. Okay. But not before Alex posted an article in 2012 on info wars that argued that Steele was set up and incarcerated

thanks to the NDAA. I guess because he was too much of a political threat to Obama. Sure. Steele was way too obviously a white supremacist and wasn't Mel Gibson's dad. So Alex couldn't have him on the show, but he was still you willing to use the website to associate in some way with him and make the argument that he got jammed up. Wow. So there is still like a little bit of a, you know, little connection to Alex. I mean, that guy can't be your friend. I just, I there's so many signs now, you know, you go back and you see this shit and you're like, why are you just fine with them being friends? And like if you are that guy, Lonnie Ray in Idaho, you know what this guy's about if he's your lawyer. Oh yeah. You know, you're in Idaho, you know what's going on. It's a choice

that you're making and that tells me a bit about you. And that says that you talked to that lawyer for a while and that lawyer was probably like, I'm going to take this all the way to the Supreme Court. And you were like, yeah. Yeah. And I can tell by context clues that this is not the first time you've yelled the N word. No, no, no, no. Angrily at somebody. You don't find that guy after your first N word. No, no, no, no. Your first N word, you feel shame and you're, I mean, hopefully, yeah. Actually, I don't even want to go down this riff. This is terrible and gross. I'm out. So yeah, I found that, that interesting. And his book is, it's vivid. This fantasy of the way the United States is going to break down into these racial states. Yeah. It's grim. It's very

sad. It is. It is one of those paranoid fantasies that is so absurd on its face to, to tell you exactly what you think of human beings, you know, like the idea of, well, obviously, we'll just congregate around race. Well, and Alex's buddy Matt Bracken has very similar like ideas. Yeah. And it's like, there's a lot of people in Alex's orbit that are like straight up on that tip. It's so weird to me how many white people are like, Oh, well, obviously everybody else is just as a race racist as we are. That's a banana thought that white people have. It's wild. So there is something else that's a little bit depressing. Yeah. So he went to prison, this Edgar Rice guy, or Edgar Steele guy, because he tried to hire someone to kill his wife. Right. Right. After

that, his wife still supported him. I'm sorry. What? Yeah. His wife was involved in like trying to get him let out of prison because she was so into like a lot of that other white supremacist shit. Right. And anti-Semitism stuff that he was all about, that like she couldn't believe it was possible that he would hire someone to kill her. And it must have been the ADL trying to set him up. That's willing to die for the cause is what that is. It's that is amazing. Bananas. Yeah. Ah, how do you man? That's that must have been his fucking luckiest day when he's, he's got the commissary numbers and it's like, Oh, this is going down. It's a good thing. My wife doesn't think I tried to kill her like I'm in jail for for the rest of my life.

I mean, it was just a shocking story. That is, I just don't even know. Yeah. I just don't even know. So anyway, some more callers want to talk about the thing that Alex didn't watch. Diane tried to put a wedge in there and boy Mel stood up to her. When she mentioned something about hot and saying they were talking about Jews and camped and the Holocaust during the Second World War. And like 6000 Jews and hot and seems to think I'm not sure I just gathered from what was said last night that there were less than 6000 Jews and Mel said, you know, 6000 2000 3000. What doesn't matter was too many. And she started on it again. And he looked at her right eye to eye, nose to nose. And he said, Diane, don't go there. Don't try. In other words,

don't try to put a wedge between my father and me. I previously he has said, I love my father. I respect him. We get along well. We're really tight. And she tried to put that wedge in there and he just stood up to her. And I thought, well, go man, go. Well, I'm really frustrated now. I guess I only got about half the show. How long was it? It was an hour. Unreal. You know how long it is. So it was the full hour. She had him for the full hour. Well, a listener called and the listener said that if I'll just stop asking for a copy of it, they'll send me one and that's good. That caller is fascinating for a number of reasons. So many reasons. The first and most obvious one is that she thinks that there were 6000 Jews killed in the Holocaust, which is indicative of

someone who doesn't really know all that much about history. I thought she had misspoken. She said it multiple times. She said it multiple times. And then in comparison, she said 6000, 2003, like, no, 6000 was the number she believed. That level of ignorance is perfect for someone like Alex to prey on because 6000 people dead during a war is a lot easier to minimize than millions. Hey, 6000, 2000, 3000. What's the difference? Too many. The second thing that jumps right out at you is that this caller has no idea what Hutton Gibson actually is and like what he actually believes. Yeah. Hutton has been on as a guest with Alex twice in the past month or so. And at no point has any of this element of his belief system come up because Alex is

careful to present a curated version of his guests. So the audience doesn't get scared off by their horrible ideas. This caller thinks she's informed on Hutton because she's watched Alex's show. But in reality, she knows less than someone who knows nothing. The third thing is that this caller believes that Diane Sawyer is trying to drive a wedge between Mel and his father by asking about how his dad is a Holocaust denier and whether or not he shares any of his dad's beliefs. That is a fair question for Diane to ask. And it's not driving a wedge. If anything, Hutton's Holocaust denial is what should be considered to be driving a wedge. Yeah, it seems more like it's like a turn in the light on to see which side of the line you

stand upon, Mel Gibson. Mel has made a movie that is offensive to many people, specifically in terms of its depiction of Jewish people. One of the things that critics have had a problem with is how the film plays into the tropes around Deoside. Mel's dad is part of a traditionalist Catholic movement that is particularly mad about the Vatican condemning accusations of Deoside against Jewish people. Mel's dad is a Holocaust denier. Given that set of premises, it's very relevant and fair to ask Mel if he's also a Holocaust denier. And if he doesn't want to answer that, that's his business. But Diane Sawyer wouldn't be doing her job if she just left that totally alone. Yeah, this caller doesn't have a serious point. And she has no idea what she's talking about. But she feels very

strongly about the subject. And that feeling is what matters more than reality. Yeah. And Alex does really nothing to help bring more information to the table. It just allows those feelings, plays into the feelings. I mean, I mean, it is such a weird thing that we have in the United States. And no, I guess it's worldwide. It's just human beings, right? You can listen to this conversation that somebody has with Mel Gibson, where they're like, Hey, do you deny the Holocaust? And he's like, Don't go there. And you'll be like, No, no, no, no, that's not that wasn't the question. I understand. It was about his dad. I understand. I understand. But my point, my point is, is essentially the answer that he's giving is the answer, despite the words not being what you

think they should be. Do you know what I mean? Kind of? Yeah. I mean, like, did you hire Edgar Steele? If, if no one, if you knew nothing about the Holocaust and somebody like Diane Sawyer on television for ABC doing journalism is like, Hey, the Holocaust happened. You'd be like, you did. There's no complicated responses there. Right. But if you see kind of a weaselish response from Mel Gibson being made and you're a viewer who thinks like, You know what? Diane Sawyer is all CFR and she's just trying to trap him in these things. Like you could see it like, Oh, he's just not willing to play her games or whatever. You know, like there's, there's ways to recontextualize these things that satisfy the feelings that you need to have.

Why? But there's so many shorter answers. Like, do you deny the Holocaust? No. See, see how quick that is. Yeah. It didn't take any time. We could move on. Nobody has to be like, we need to find out if you really believe this or not. If you don't say no, I feel like you've already told me what you think. Right. It wasn't in this interview, but in another one, that like question directly came up and Mel Gibson gave a, um, an answer that was like, Yeah, a lot of people die in war. That kind of thing. Yeah. Of course it happened. You've already told me everything you need to tell me. I know you didn't say, I know you didn't say I'm a giant anti-Semite who loves the Nazis, but you just said that. Your answer is not good to this question. No. It implies other

beliefs. Words have to have meanings that you can understand. Yeah. Otherwise they're pointless. So according to Alex, the media hates Christians. Sure. Basically what you said is so right. The media is trying to drive a wedge into the public psyche so people don't see this film or so they don't get the message of the film. The media is anti-Christian. I mean, that's obvious. Just, just, just, you know, watch a TV show. It's that message is everywhere. And so they try to raise this anti-Semitism red herring because that's a horrible allegation. But, uh, we'll come back and continue with your calls, wide open phones today. You know, it'd been really helpful for Alex if he wants to play this game about the media lying about Hutton and his anti-Semitism.

Alex should have asked Hutton what he thinks about the Holocaust while he was on the show so he could see for himself. Hutton doesn't make a secret of his beliefs. He wrote a whole newsletter about them and he's talked about that shit when reporters have asked. Alex intentionally didn't ask about that stuff because if he did, he couldn't pretend the media was lying about Hutton's ideology because it would be coming straight from his mouth. Yeah. This is just a dumb fucking game that Alex is playing of just kind of hiding, uh, the, the point. Yeah. And I guess you can see why he's doing it. Yeah. Yeah. That's, uh, I'm gonna have to push back. I don't think the media was very anti-Christian at this time at all. No. I think, uh, I think there was

quite a bit of a very pro-Christian media to the point now where I feel like if I went back and visited it, I might in my conscious brain now be like, Oh, there's some anti-Semitic tropes that we're just on TV. Probably that's probably there. God damn. So Alex has a feeling about the show up till this point. Sure. And I will say I disagree with it. Okay. Well, predominantly on the show today, we've been talking about the first amendment and how it's under attack here in the United States. Now freedom of speech worldwide is under attack and listeners have been calling in one after another, uh, saying how great they thought the crime time piece was last night with Mel Gibson with the CFR member Diane Sawyer and how Mel, I did a pretty good

job of, uh, fending off, uh, her attempts at demonization. This show has not been about the first amendment under attack or, or anything. It's been, uh, the complaining about the thing he didn't watch. Yeah. Well, everybody and attacking, uh, Abraham Foxman unnecessarily. Yeah. And, and I mean, again, like his whole angle start of the day, they portrayed Mel Gibson wrong and they cut out all the stuff and they did all this thing to make him look bad. Everyone's response on the phones is like, I thought he did a great job. Yes. He comes off looking good. Yeah. No, the story of this episode up to this point is Alex came in with a pre-loaded narrative that was based on not watching the thing he's talking about and it's completely

collapsed under his feet. He's made multiple excuses. Tons. I had a fever. My wife didn't record it. He's going to sort through it, man. I got annoyed, rewinding. My wife recorded a five minutes of it. Right. There's a hundred reasons why he didn't watch this, but yeah, generally speaking, all of the response from the audience has been exactly counter to the narrative that he put up. Yeah. And so a little bit of that is why it's very convenient to pivot over to the, why is the ADL changing their tune? Of course. Of course. So you can kind of get a little bit of traffic out of that, a little mileage. Um, but yeah. This is why you don't bluff on, on TV or on the radio. You don't broadcast your bluffs. You want to win. It's fun though. If you're going

to bluff pre-record, if you're going to bluff pre-record and then don't edit, then just don't release it. It's, it's fun though to see Alex sort of try and maneuver this. He is living on the edge. Yeah. I will say that. I don't think his audience has really quite understood that he didn't watch shit. No, I watched a couple of minutes. We'll see you again. Maybe. Well, no, because he has a couple of specifics. Sure. Um, but yeah, he has another, he has some thoughts about the passion though. And I just, at this point, I was kind of tearing out my hair. I was just talking to Hutton there in the break. Uh, he thought it was a pretty good piece. And so did I. Um, and what else can they do? What I mean, it's a good movie. It's a wholesome film. Why then has the

media been demonizing the passion of Christ? And this is just a microcosm example of how across the board, anything that's wholesome and good as being attacked while things that are evil are being held up is good. Um, but I mean, basically that's all I can say on the subject. So now it's good. The piece. And also the passion of the Christ is wholesome and a good movie. Yep. You haven't seen it. It's wholesome. It's another thing that you haven't seen that you're making strong claims about wholesome and good movie. I know. I read the book. I read the book. He talks so much about things he has not experienced. I, I, it is, it is like, I mean, Fox news at this time was not, it wasn't the Fox news that we have today. No, it was still, it was still very on the right

wing. Yeah. Of course. Yeah. Quite a patriotism. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. And, and, but their argument shows were always about like arguing about the reality and not like hiding everything. Yeah. They were just yelling reality down like Hannity and combs. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They would do that. This is that proto Fox news where it's like, I don't even give a fuck about reality. Yeah. I don't give a shit. I don't care what they say. I don't care what anybody says. If that sun is not blue, you're wrong. You know, and it's like, that's just what they do. And that's Alex being like, well, fuck it. I don't care. I guess it was a good piece. Hey, it was good. It was bad. Whatever anybody says, I'm going to give you what you want and you're going to give me money for it.

So there's another thing that happens a little bit on this episode, which is on our last 2004 episode, Alex talked to a gun grab and preacher, a Presbyterian preacher who he tricked into coming on the show. One of the great interviews. And so a couple of callers on this episode also want to complain about it still. Oh, I guess who's up next here. Victor, Victor in Florida. Go ahead. You're on the air. Hello. I'm calling from Pensacola and I wanted to comment on the so-called pastor from Presbyterian USA in Dallas. Yeah. And for those again that just joined us, recap what happened yesterday. Well, basically, he's a gun grabber who's using his church to indoctrinate people into believing that, you know, you shouldn't have gun. Move on. Oh, I'm sorry. Are you calling

Alex days after? No, the next day. The next day. Stay two of complaining about this pastor. You're calling Alex the next day to say to Alex the thing Alex said to you. Yeah. Yeah. Just wanted to double check on that. Plain about this. Alex said specifically those exact words. Well, there's more complaining about Presbyterians after this because they are like they're into open borders. Sure. And Alex is like his evidence of this is that they like will put up water for people who are migrants and stuff. Those awful, terrible people. They don't want people to die. They're open borders, Presbyterians. That doesn't seem to be like open borders advocacy to me as much as it is like humanitarian aid. You know, no, no, no, no. And then also he, Alex says,

and they're into all those marriages, which is code for safe sex. Alex is staunchly opposed to it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was thinking about that time that Jesus saw that dude on the road and he had mud and he was blind or whatever. And Jesus was like, I'm going to put some mud in those eyes and then you're going to be able to see, right? Right. What if instead he was like immigrant and then punched him and then ran away? We'd have a much better Bible. Sure. Yeah. Open borders. We don't have an open Bible. Not open Bible. So you have one last caller and there's a couple clips of this because it's, it's, it's, everything's interesting, but it's, it's a portrait that we have. We see Alex as this guy who is incapable of critical thinking, won't push back

on stuff. Correct. But that's not true. Well, he does push back on some stuff. True. So he gets a caller who wants to talk about Nessarra. Oh my God. Which is now a big thing with Coonan. Yeah. 20 years later. I saw, I saw the, because I didn't know, I'd never seen it written out before. We've only talked about Nessarra and Jesarra. Yeah. And then one day, I think I saw like one of the Twitter trending topics was Nessarra and I was like, that's how it's written down. And I know instantly, oh, we're fucked. Yeah. That's Coonan. So it's, I mean, it's, it's already a thing here, even in 2004 in conspiracy circles. Bananas. And so this caller wants to talk about it. And Alex is like, it's not real. Shut up. Just really. And I can tell you in advance,

why? Yeah. And it's because it's a hope narrative. It's a narrative that everything is okay. Right. And like there's going to be this reset of the economy and all of your debts are going to be forgiven. There's a plan. Right. Yeah. And Alex does not like that because he wants to scare you. Plans are evil. Right. People who make plans are killing you. Yes. That is how it works. Lisa in Michigan. Go ahead. Hi Alex. How you doing? I'm doing okay. Listen, we just found out a couple days ago on February 12th that the Nessarra bill is not a dead bill. In fact, it was passed secretly on March 9, 2000. Nessarra is not real. Well, it was secretly paid. No, that's not true. That's what they wanted. There's a gag order on that. And it was secretly passed on March 9. Okay. For

those that just joined us, why don't you tell people what Nessarra claims to be? Well, Nessarra, it gives forgiveness of credit card, mortgage debt, and other bank loans as remedy for bank and government fraud, balances the IRS, creates freight, a flat rate, non-essential, new items only, sales tax revenue for government, every source constitutional law, initiates U.S. Treasury Bank system, which absorbs the Federal Reserve and new precious metals back U.S. Treasury currency. I don't know much about it, Alex, but they requested it to the world, to the world court as we speak right now. Well, you say you don't know much about it. I do. Well, we just found out about it, but we do know it was secretly passed on March 9.

And how do you know that? I'm going to fax the documents to you today. You mean you're going to fax the stuff that's on the Internet to me? Well, they got it. They got a gig order on there. Well, Lisa, I'm not trying to be mean to you, but I live this. This is my life, okay? And they came out a few years ago and said everything's all right. The government secretly passed laws, reinstituting the Constitution, and everything's okay now. Meanwhile, they're passing Patriot Act one and two, all the stuff's happening. And there's this rumor that there's this secret law that was passed and everything's okay now. And I'm telling you, it's not true.

Well, it says that there was four petitions, the world court, submitted by the bank consistent with the Illuminati. They're trying to stop this, Alex. They're trying to stop this because it's going to make them go down. So Alex is able to push back on stuff. And he's even able to say, like, oh, some dumb thing you found on the Internet. Yep. That's what you do, man. Everything you do. That's everything you do. Don't qualify this. How fucking dare you? Yeah, it's a little rude. That is. But there's the best moment ever. Hold on. Do you not know that we have a Wikipedia article in a Manila envelope? Right. Look, but look, there's just the best moment ever. Okay. Right here. I had to isolate it. Oh, God. Oh, God. Yeah, I heard that. I heard

that. I was like, that's got to be him. Right. But then I also thought, Hey, it could be somebody, anybody listening with a mic nearby would be like, Oh, God. I mean, like he's trying to just be like, you have to accept my authority on this. Yeah. I have researched all of these things. And this thing that you found online is bullshit. All the things I find online and tell you about are true and very important. I was just she won't listen. And that's what's making him say, Oh, God, she keeps coming back with like, it's sent to the world court. And she doesn't care that he's trying to present himself as the guy who knows it all. I was waiting for him to go off on just like, Oh, what? What did you have it in a dream? Did you dream that it was passed? Did you dream

that there's some sort of basketball of people out here going around trying to make everybody do evil things? Of course you believe that nonsense. But there's also in that clip, you can see the kind of better indication of why this is an unpalatable narrative to Alex. And it's because it's relief through the government, basically, you know, it's through government channels, the problem can be solved. And Alex cannot accept that he cannot believe that the only way to solve these problems, because the globalists have infiltrated literally everything is deconstructing almost all of the government solutions through government are anathema to what he can possibly go for. So even though it's a fun conspiracy narrative and a lot of people are into it, it's something that Alex

will never be on board with. Yeah, I mean, I'm not on board with it. Period. Even if it is a good thing, I don't think laws should be passed in secret. I'm going to throw that out there. I think if you're passing secret laws, something is far but there's a far larger problem going on. Fair enough. Yeah. So here is the the rest of him talking to her. Okay. And like he's just sort of condemning himself a little bit through her. Yeah. Yeah. Ma'am, Nacera is not real. I could go hold on. I could go start a website. You did and say that I had Easter bunnies passing out in my backyard and the secret law had been passed concerning the Easter bunnies and the government was blocking it. Lieutenant colonels have told me it's not globalists.

It's an urban legend. Okay, a doctor from Mountain Hillsville County was telling us that this is true and they're trying to keep it. It's not a good thing though, Alex. They got a gag thing on it. In fact, they got a gag thing. Yeah, they got a gag order on it. If you say anything about it, they start the treason and punishment by death. This is what they're telling us, the US Supreme Court. This is basically craziness. I know it is. I think it's weird too, but I want you to know I want you to check it out. Don't believe me. I want you to check it out. Ma'am, did you not hear me, Lisa? I have checked it out for three years. Okay, well, this is the stuff that's getting forwarded to us and it's in the world. They're

waiting for, they requested it right now and they're waiting for it to process. Hey, Lisa, I'm not here criticizing you. I mean, it's okay that you called up asking me about Nassara, but I keep telling you that I have researched it and you tell me I need to research it. I'm telling you it's an urban legend. The government didn't secretly make everything all right and give us our rights back. It's just not true. Well, it's not all right. That's just it. It seems like a good thing, but it's not. Okay. Thank you for the call. I didn't sound like I'm going to convince you. So all right. You know, everybody's running around going, the government's really good and they secretly overthrew the New World Order in 2000 and the

New World Order is covering this up. I'm going to hang up on you because you all let me gatekeep your conspiracy ideas. Yeah. My biggest problem is your conspiracy ideas are different from mine. Yeah. And I'm not going to be able to, you won't bend to my reality. And so no point in talking. Yeah. You know, here's, here's what I was thinking. All right. I was thinking, I had a thought when she said that the forward, this is what we're getting forwarded, right? And I was reminded of the number of FWD colons back in the days, you know, that you used to get. And then I was like, Oh, well, with social media, at least I don't get those emails anymore. Because all those people do that shit on social media. And that saves my inbox. And then I went

back and revisited that. And I was like, no, that stuff should be in your email box. That should be in your inbox. You should leave it there. Yeah, it should be, it should go to spam. Exactly. And now instead it's like, everywhere. People end up seeing it. It's everywhere. Yeah. It's worse that it's not something that you can just ignore. Totally. Easily in your email. What a huge mistake we all made whenever we complained about those. Yeah. We didn't even know we had it. So good. Oh my God. And then we were complaining about those. And we're like, well, at least it's not the chain letters that you got in the mail. God damn, we got to go back.

We got to go back, buddy. Oh no. Get this thing up to 88 miles an hour. Oh, I thought you were doing a jack in season three or four of lost. No, no, no, no, no, no. I'm going back to the future. All right. Back in time. So we come to the end of this. And man, I swear, I was expecting something with the cliffhanger of Alex having the Dian Sawyer thing to watch. Sure. I didn't expect this. No, I didn't in a million years expect that he wouldn't have watched it and try to pretend that he did. He had to eight. It just never occurred to me. Nope. That's not a thought that I had. He's such a weird dude that like everything is like not everything, but a lot of things are very unpredictable. We can still be kind of surprised by bad choices that he makes.

It's just, I mean, different genres of bad choice. Yeah. It's like, if you brought it up in a production meeting, like, Hey guys, I didn't actually see this. Then somebody would have given you. Who's he having a production meeting with? I know. Again, his wife called him during a break. That's what I'm saying. That's my point here is that all of this is going wrong because he's just keeping it up there. Do a production meeting with talking to a lamp. Don't be a player manager. No, all shades. Absolutely. Danny Shays, one of the shades. It's one of those shazes. Anyway, we'll be back, Jordan. Indeed we will. For another episode soon. But until then, we have a website. Indeed we do. It's knowledgefight.com. Yep. We're also on Twitter. We are on

Twitter. It's at knowledge underscore fight. Yeah, we'll be back. But until then, I'm Leo. I'm Leo. I'm DZX Corks. And now here comes the sex robots. Andy and Kansas, you're on the air. Thanks for holding. Hello, Alex. I'm a first time caller. I'm a huge fan. I love your work. I love you.