Knowledge Fight - #894: Chatting With Brian Stelter

Episode Date: January 31, 2024

In this installment, Jordan sits down with Brian Stelter for a chat about his book Network Of Lies, what it's like to get drunk dialed by Alex Jones, and much more.

I'm sick of them posing as if they're the good guys saying we are the bad guys knowledge It's time to pray. I have great respect for knowledge fight. Knowledge fight. I'm sick of them posing as if they're the good guys saying we are the bad guys. Knowledge fight. Dan and George, knowledge fight. Ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, ruler, And I'm gonna be in Kansas. And you stop it. And the in Kansas. And the in Kansas. And the in Kansas. You're on the air. Thanks for holding. I like some of the colors. I love your work. Knowledge fight. Knowledge fight. I love you. Hello, everyone. Welcome back to knowledge Fight. Today it's just me without my co-host Dan. However, I am joined by the man himself, Brian Stelter.

Wow. Yeah. I mean, that's the only way I can say it on mic now. Brian, thank you so much for joining me today. How are you? Thank you so much for joining me today. How are you? I'm okay. I'm a little nervous, but I respect what you all do. So bring it on. A little nervous. That is, it is funny for me to hear somebody who was on TV

for a decade being nervous about talking to a clown with a radio show that can only be found on internet. Well,, to be fair, I did. I did have you on TV once, I believe. True. Didn't we do a little TV together? We did. This is the first time I'm actually seeing your face live to give a to give a little behind the scenes to people. We were taken to a very small room in downtown Chicago and we looked at a camera hole. And that was our whole experience. So it's fascinating. You're facing real. TV is weird. TV is weird in a lot of different ways for a lot of different reasons. But you know, you all have exposed and revealed Alex Jones in a way nobody else has. I think I've

learned a lot from listening to your podcast. For example, the episode where y'all broke down the I don't know why I'm saying y'all so much. What's wrong with me today? It's part of the game. This is a great place to say it. Okay, the you know, apart Tucker Carlson's interview, it wasn't an interview. Tucker Carlson's, you know. Spawning. Yeah, what do you describe with Alex Jones? I couldn't bear to listen to the actual conversation between the two of them, but I was able to experience it through you all.

So thank you. It is one of the only ways that I can stomach it. I couldn't possibly, you know, though the greatest of gifts that Dan perhaps has is his ability to endure torture beyond what anyone I think I've ever experienced can do. So yeah, I that's the first thing that we want to talk about, I suppose, is that in infoo Wars world you are a demon you have all all kinds of crimes under your belt ranging from the sex criminal type to I believe I believe you've eaten a baby in the past something along those lines yeah I don't even know I don't

even I can't even keep up with all the things. He's that's my question. What's your favorite thing that you've not done? OK, so I'm going to have to admit, I don't follow Alex Jones's rants about me that closely. So I hate to disappoint the listeners. I rely on you, you know, to tell me what he has said. There was there was one though, the very famous one, the one where he accuses me of drinking children's

blood and running the banks, which which you all have dined out on in the past, which Tucker Carlson recently celebrated on his web show. Yes. Yeah. The I will tell you, that was actually the one night during the Trump administration that my wife was worried about my line of work and was fearful about our, you know, our livelihood and our life, you know, like we were living in the city. We were about to have our first child and she watches this insane unhinged rant with my face, you know, smiley face plastered up on the screen. And I found it rather amusing.

Like I was trying to laugh about it. And she was freaked out. And rightfully, and I totally understand why. Because little Pepe the frog logos started getting sent to us in the mail. And the interesting thing about that is like, there was no message attached, right? There was no like threat or anything.

It was just their way of saying, we know where you live. Right, right. And which I find to be really interesting tactic. So that was the one, like all the other stuff that happened, the bomb at CNN, you know, the death threats, the time that Trump tweeted about me, like none of that really spooked my family. But it was Alex Jones and the drink children's blood.

So so I've got I mean, how can I can't I can't top that one as an example of all the things he said about me. Should you and fight or flight response tends to totally. And and, you know, what do you do? Like here's here's here's why all this is so they don't fucking talk to us at all. No one no one recognizes I want to be threatened. No one is threatened by life once. It's terrifying. You don't you don't want this. You don't want to be called his enemy. Here's nine times out of 10. I think this is just online chaos.

You know, like most of the time, right? Almost all of the time it is just this reality distortion field that only exists on people's computers and screens. But then every so often as Oliver Darcy experienced, doesn't something else that you all have covered, you know, out shows will show up in person and confront you on camera in your face. And so every so often the real world like breaks through.

It's like the internet world breaks through into the real world, you know, and you never know when it's going to happen or if it's going to happen. Yeah. It's part of the problem. Yeah, it is kind of fascinating because there is so much of that online harassment that's a joke, you know, it's nothing and you shouldn't worry about it. And the more time you focus on it, the more it's going to drive you insane. And it's nothing. Yeah, I guess I don't, until it is that one time and you didn't see it coming and you

don't know who it is. And, you know, so you should be worried all the time. Right. And I'm not blaming Alice Jones for this, but, you know, I went to the, the flower shop one day in a town near me and this guy starts growling at me. Fuck CNN. This was back when I saw her to CNN. And I couldn't tell if he worked there or if he was a customer. So I decided to leave. I just took myself out of the situation. And you know, let me say knock on wood. That's very rare.

This stuff doesn't happen every day or every month or not. No, not at all, but every every once in a while, you know, and I do think there are there are women in this media industry who will tell you it's much uglier for them. They're, you know, I'm I let me check my privilege as we talk about this, you know, that the Alex Jones stuff doesn't affect me very often. And it's not in my face very often. But yeah, every once in a while. And then of course he called up recently and we can talk about that. Well, yeah, we're gonna get to that in a second. Can I ask you a bigger picture though?

What was he doing in that rant seven years ago? He was saying, you're my enemy, right? You're my enemy, I see you. I can't, I'm not gonna fake it much. Sure, sure, sure. You are my enemy. There it is. Yeah, about that. There's something really deep, You I can't I'm not going to fake it much. But sure, sure, sure. And there there it is.

There's there's something really like deep. There's a deep despair to that, right? Of he is a character who has to create other characters in order to mock, destroy, ridicule, whatever he does to them. Right. But I think what I learned in the Trump years as an anchor at CNN was that Brian, they're not talking about you. They're talking about a cartoon character villain they've created with your name and your face.

Like and I don't just mean about Alex, I mean about Tar-Carlson, Sean Hannity, you know, the, you know, these guys will come up with nicknames and fat jokes and stuff and ridicule. And I had to kind of accept that layer of removal from it because there was one night and I don't mean to like sound like the victim here or whatever but you know we're talking about this weird life of being in the public square and having these people send Nazi signals to your house that's victimizing I feel like you can say I'm a victim of being Nazi attacked it was weird yeah that there was a night

I was flying to LA I was on a late night flight and It was coast coast flight and I wanted to get to use the bathroom And I'm walking up to the bathroom and I see on Fox news all the people you know in the Rose in front We were watching Fox and there's a segment bashing me As I'm walking up the aisle. That's and it was I think was Tucker's show I'm pretty sure but it might have been Sean's because that night Tucker, Sean and Laura all did segments where they were killed or attacked or whatever. I can't remember what I did wrong that day or what I did right that day,

but three hours in a row, Brian Seltzer was one of the villains. And I remember like being nervous about walking back from the bathroom, right? Like I hope none of these passengers recognize me, right? Yeah, this is the internet. This is fucking TV. Yeah, and some of them are probably Democrats who were just hate watching Fox, and that's cool.

But, you know, it was and I actually that was like one of the. So I mentioned the one night that it bothered my wife. This plane ride was the one night that it ever really got to me. And I I mentioned it to my boss, Jeff Zucker. I mentioned it in an email. We were emailing about something else. And I said, like, this actually kind of sucks. This is weird. I don't like this feeling. And he said, this is it in an email. We were emailing about something else. And I said, like, this actually kind of sucks. And this is weird.

Like, I don't like this feeling. And he said, this is not hard, Brian. What's really hard is cancer. I mean, I'm paraphrasing, but I appreciated. I appreciated the reality. No, I needed the I needed the reality check. I needed to remember. I'm with you, but also.

And it was just it was it was it was TV. Well, you agree. Disagree. I liked it as like a as a as a gut check. Sure. Sure. I understand. But it's definitely an out of body experience when you're on a plane everywhere around the people are watching this like trash, these lies about you. It is a it is a out of body experience for sure. I what I find fascinating so much about that is that your story just now, being in the

clothing store is identical to an Alex lie. You know, Alex tells that type of story all the time. I was walking down the street and then there was this person and I tell you, liberals, they're just demons. They just go, they just look at me in the eye and they go, you know, and you're literally walking into a store and someone growls at you. Yeah, and the difference for me is that's like the only time it's ever happened, right? You know, I can count on my fingers.

You can admit that it's been real experience. That's why it's interesting. Like most of the time, if I get recognized by a big maga person, we have a funny conversation. Like it's usually like a musing, not scary, right? But for Alex Jones, it has to all be demonic. It has to all be, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

No, it is because when we describe it as the internet or their world catching up to us or breaking into the real world. I think that is an example of you getting sucked into a fantasy world. Like you have suddenly walked into a lark that you had no idea even existed. Right. That's right. And I find that so fascinating is that I had to realize early, like again, it was this is in the Trump years and this was my education about this and now it you know now we're kind of still in the Trump years

That Like oh, let me take the Trump years. Don't worry the afternoon Yeah, the afternoon that the Trump like randomly tweeted about me and I didn't hear from a single friend of mine I didn't have a single family member call me. I'm not that much of a leal. Like I have friends. Like I'm not I am a social person. It's just that nobody in my world, like in my reality, cared what Donald Trump was tweeting, right? Like it was so removed from their daily existence. Why would they care that the president's calling this reporter a lapdog? You know, and then so you go on Twitter and you look at the replies and there's thousands of trolls, you know,

or whatever they are just eating it up and having fun and going hog wild. But out in my sphere, it was like it never happened. And I'm really grateful for that perspective to have that perspective. Yeah. Cause I think otherwise it would probably get to me more than it does.

Yeah. That's fascinating. I wonder. You could make the case though. You can make the case Jordan that I don't take it seriously enough. Sure. Well, I mean, all right. So imagine your, let's call it a straight white guy in 1770, 1792 or so, right? Thomas Jefferson's talking shit about you as you're a newspaper writer. Can you imagine? So you're in the media. Right. And the president of the United States is talking shit about you. But really one thing we don't think about is that nobody had any fucking clue. It was only like 30 guys who were allowed to even participate in reading about this shit. You know, so it's an interesting,

it's an interesting kind of reflection of that in the present tense, except everybody halfway knows about it. It's very strange. Yes, and it's so it becomes like a background music to one's existence. In a way that's like I find unsettling. I also sometimes you realize what's the what's the saying about now I'm blanking on so embarrassing on podcast like oh I'm taking up space in your head like living living yeah first time we forget yeah first time for everything no living free, living rent free in one's head.

That's so I get the sense. I might be wrong about this, that Alex, for example, might care more about me than I care about him, right? So not only do we we come at it from different angles, I come at this as a reporter interested in him as a story, a subject, a character, a danger. He comes toward me as using me as a villain, thinking that I'm part of this evil global conspiracy. Oh, we should talk about Davos.

I think he came after me when I went to Davos last year, too. Sure. And I get all the facts wrong, of course. So not only do we come up from different angles, but I also like I'm not as interested in him. And then the night that he drunk dials me and, you know, I guess Prank calls me and then goes on Tucker's show and talks about it. And then the night that he drunk dials me and, you know, I guess Prank calls me and then goes on Tucker's show and talks about it. And it becomes like, they like used it

to promote their show. Like they use it like to promote his comeback as if like, well, he brains up. And I'm like, who? I didn't even bother, you know, it, it's just interesting the difference between like, yeah, that I guess, I guess in in my head he's just a supporting actor, right? Right. And in his head, I'm like one of his stars. Oh, right. That's that's interesting. Because I also think that you have the same perspective in a sense, because Alex Jones isn't real to you, you know, right? Alex Jones is a character in the same way that you're not real to Alex. You're a

character. And I kind of find that to be a strange place. And one I want you to kind of see if there's a different experience for because we're not characters. We're we're completely separate. You know, we're we're in the we're in the crowd. We're henchmen, essentially. You know, there's no respect. There's no character building between the two of us. But that's probably because he's scared of you. Like he's, if I were him, I would never want to mention knowledge fight because it actually undermines what I do.

Sure. It takes apart. It takes apart the entire business and brand of everything. I think that's, I think that would be how it would go for like a normal human being and stuff. I think it genuinely, I think we just make him feel bad. I feel like he can't like, he can't find a way to make himself feel good about what he does if he listens to our show. So he doesn't tell people about it. Like for you, whenever he gets pushed back from you and when Stelter says Alex Jones did an evil thing, you know, he can be like, yes,

the establishment media is coming out. Right. Right. CNN knows what we're up to. Yeah. They're trying to take us down. A good person. Right. Two asshole comedians from Chicago have weirdly spent the past seven years studying me. That sounds like I'm a creep. You know, I don't want to feel like that. I totally get why he doesn't talk about us.

We're stalkers. Right. Why do you want to talk about your stalker? Makes perfect sense. I don't think you're stalkers, but I hear you. I take your point. But you're 100% right. And this is something that, you know, this was true about Trump also. And what I think this

was a no win and is a no win situation for mainstream media fact checking Trump only fact checking. Trump does many things. It's important to fact check Trump. It's not an option not to factor Trump. But those fact checks are sometimes fuel for him to say to his voters that the media doesn't like you, which is false, but you know, that's the story he can tell. And the same thing with Alex Jones, the coverage from CNN, and this is where being a media reporter gets all sorts of wacky and, you know, convoluted

because it's, you are hope, you're trying and you hope you're shining a light and exposing how the world works or doesn't work. But in so doing, you might be raising more awareness of these individuals. Right. And so that kind of paradox, or if that's what you want to call it, has kind of been around. I mean, the thing about it is that it's less a paradox and more a Gordian not so much as like, oh, well, the mainstream media can't exist in the form it does. Like it just has to go and be right. There is no, yeah, right. Yeah. There's no way to have a billionaire own the Washington Post and then have just by virtue of a billionaire

owning it. It doesn't even matter if he touches it. What matters is that he owns it, you know, and that can never be undone. I don a business. So the business is what will be sold or dismantled. It doesn't matter how good the work you do is, which is fantastic. Tons of people are fantastic. And I don't think that they are in there making editorial decisions for people. That's not the case at all. It's simply that if you can destroy something then there will always be the inherent fear of being destroyed by that person. And that is just something that you carry with you whether you can acknowledge it or not because it is always there. How many people have been laid off in media in the past 30 days. You know, right? It's never ended. There's always going to be that threat. And the more everybody in the media hears about that threat, the more it's going to be a,

you know, we're going to keep my job somehow. It's part of it's just part of the game, which is how we get to Fox news and network of lies, which for the people who could see this on the video, you have the cover directly behind you. It's a very, it's a very delightful cover. Yeah, there we go. There's another one. And in it, you start with, I suppose, was it the triple C's, the three forms of accountability, which are civil, criminal and then canceling, I believe was the third one. And Tyler Carlson was literally canceled. It was not canceled culture, right? It was canceled a show, but yes. Right. Right. So I want to talk about how effective those are

How effective those are in your estimation of the Fox News kind of verdict? Like, has anyone really been held accountable? Is anything going to change at the network in real focus? Right. Well, I mean, Fox News is not going to magically turn into a mainstream news network. No, that's not going to happen. Fox is always going to be more anti-democrat than it is anything else. I view it as even more than a right wing or pro-Republican channel, it's an anti-democrat machine. It exists to try to defeat the left, whatever it thinks the left is. And that's not going to change as well as all these lawsuits. But around the edges, yes,

they have had to make changes and the amount of money they had to pay Dominion is extraordinary even for a publicly traded big company like Fox Corporation. They're in about a billion dollars. They're almost up there. They are approaching a billion dollars total in settlements as a result of Trump's election lies. And Smartmatic is still suing their shareholder lawsuits. So the the toll, the financial toll is enough to be actual accountability. It actually is a form of accountability. But whether that causes changes, you know, this becomes the question of the question, isn't it? What is accountability if it doesn't cause change? I mean, let's let's fast forward to November point 24. Donald Trump has lost. That's okay. I was like, wait, where are we in the book?

Okay. He's, you know, he has lost, let's say he's lost again to Biden. Yeah. Let's say it was close, but clear that he lost. And he starts lying about it again. Let's say that he encourages his supporters to protest, to have a wild event the way he said January 6 would be. What does Fox do in that scenario? And I think the answer to that hypothetical is Fox does not defame specific voting companies. Like if you go on the if you're booked on Fox in November of 2024, when Donald Trump, if Donald Trump loses again, if you start saying

Dominion did it, like you're going to be cut off, like you're going to be, you're not going to be booked again. So, so in that very narrow sense, something will have changed. There will be specific companies that you're not allowed to defame on Fox in 2024. That's, I don't know, that's the knockout failure. It might not be very satisfying to your listeners. Yeah. Now, I do think around the edges also, there might be a little more news and maybe a little bit less propaganda because there's gonna be this increased attention on how does Fox play it?

How does Fox handle it, right? And so in the scenario I just described, if Trump loses again, Fox will be torn once again between Trump and the truth. Same problem they had in 2020. Same problem they had basically every day. Trump or the truth, Trump or the truth. And they try to side with Trump, but it gets them into financial and legal trouble

and costs them a lot of money. So, you know, we're going to see a version of this play out again this year, I guess, is the answer. Right. I suppose the interesting question there is, you know, based upon the book, going through all of the internal communications and all of that stuff that you've put together, I'm wondering functionally what the difference

between Fox News as it stands and like, you know, fucking Himmler, like what is the difference there in terms of being a functional mouthpiece for fascism. So I'm not. I'm not there on the F word yet. Tell me. Tell me why I should be there. Tell me. Tell me. Tell me where I should be. Well, if you are part of the laundering chain and that doesn't mean, you know, like, first off, we've got Tucker on there. So Tucker is gone definitively.

But my question is if Trump wins election, how fast does trucker Tucker come back to Fox News? That I don't see. No, that I don't. Yeah. Well, that's that's the fascism question. That's where we are running into that. That's it. Kind of a interesting discussion there. So if Tucker is literally saying that immigrants are bugs, how is that not in the fascism conversation? Once you dehumanize immigrants and entire population, that's fascism conversation, right? At the very least. Hmm. Well, and certainly Trump has engaged in that for years. Sure. You know, it's It's disturbing to me how how nor he got up there before that I would and said, this chance, you and Iowa, it's the ultimate chance for you to declare victory over the perverts and the Democrat.

Like he he starts naming all these groups that he considers not real Americans. Right. And it was a very explicit, you know, dehumanization call. And everyone was like, yeah, it's Saturday. And I'm thinking, no, this is not just Saturday. This is a big deal still. And I feel for the folks that I'm sure many of your listeners feel this way, where like you, you know, you want you want the media collectively to somehow take Trump more seriously, you know, something along those lines. And yet, you know,

we're the it's we're in an environment where individual journalists will will impress but institutions will disappoint. Right. The collectors will disappoint. Right. And that's for all sorts of reasons and many of them are boring but in mundane. I would say I would say the most dangerous ones are the boring and mundane ones where it's like there's no there's no heroic way to solve this that you need 300 bureaucrats

who all decide like we're going to do this the right way I guess this that you need 300 bureaucrats who all decide like we're gonna do this the right way I guess this time you know it's a lot harder than somebody coming in like Trump with a sword saying I have fixed the mainstream media. Right. The thing I think about Fox is it relates to all this. Is it Laughlin Murdoch his father his father Rupert, the shareholders, what they care about most is the profit and the bottom line of Fox and keeping Fox as a strong business going forward. So to the extent that they can align with Trump, but not be accused of defamation, not

be found liable, not be accused of, you know, helping set a riot. Like they want to be they want their hands clean while profiting from Trump and Trumpism. Right. And that's a difficult, that's a difficult thing. But Firetare Carlson, I think was locked. I might even say impossible. One might say something that they would have to lie a great deal about in order to pretend to pull off. I think, you know, you're on to something, but Taran Carlson's firing was Lachlan Murdoch's

way of trying to make his network seem a little more center right as opposed to as opposed to far right. Now, we can we can dismantle all of that and we can say that's all bullshit. But in his head, at least, and in his boards in the minds of his board members, they were taking Fox, which which was with Tucker even further out toward that Alex Jones conspiracy world and dragging it a little bit back closer to a shared reality. Sure. And, you know, that's not nothing, even though it's far from what.

Well, I'm not I'm not saying that it's not nothing. That's it's far from what? No, no, no, I'm not saying that it's not nothing. That's absolutely not my point. My point is that they are doing this as a Tucker right now, right? We are civilly on the hook for billions of dollars, so we get rid of Tucker. We pull it back to kind of create more of a shared reality. The idea being because there's a greater amount of scrutiny, right? What happens when that scrutiny stops for a set? You know, like when is if Tucker is back, did they change anything or were they just waiting it out? And if they're why I don't I wonder we do it. I don't see any world where he comes back. You don't seem to believe you think he's coming back.

I don't see that world. I I I think they've shown once again, they don't need any individual star that they're just as well off with Jesse Waters at 8 p.m. And they don't need Tucker and they and they wouldn't have him return. But I guess crazier things have happened. and they and they wouldn't have him return but I guess crazier things have happened Well, I mean that's kind of that's kind of the the situation well one with Tucker Lord knows the man's been killed in the media What five times now you can't you can't get rid of him. He just keeps coming back. He just keeps coming back That's problem number one

But I mean problem number two is just a little bit of if Trump is reelected, as you've described, you know, the business sense in one way is pull it back from the center to the center right. And if Trump is reelected, is the business go far the right? And if the businesses go farther right, why not? Yeah, that's, you know, it just makes me want to ask the question, what is farther right in that scenario? You know, that's, I think that's a good question too. I think that is a really good question. What is pulling it back to the center right?

What exactly are we discussing in terms of what people are saying? Is it a matter of degree of language or is it a matter of substance? Right. And so much of this is, so much of what's broken relates to the Republican party that acts more like a media operation than a law-making operation, than a legislative operation. than a law making operation, right? Than a legislative operation. You know, we hear so little, other than around immigration with Trump trying to torpedo this border deal,

we hear so little about policy out of the far right, but really from the right. It's become so much more of a television production arm, right, than operation. And so that's part of what makes it hard to hash this out and forecast what it would be. I think there is a world in which, so to me, if you look at Fox Corporation,

Lachlan Murdoch, Rupert, Paul Ryan, who's on the board, other board members, these are still, maybe not Lachlan, but these are still mostly country club Republicans. These are still mostly tax cut Republicans. And they make all sorts of compromises to try to appeal to a more populist crowd, to try to appeal to an anti-immigration crowd.

But that's who is on top of Fox. And I think that's important and relevant when we talk about how would they approach and they how they approach and how they handle Trump I Guess I hadn't thought a lot about what a second term of Trump means for Fox News yet. Oh Yeah, I mean that but that's because it's very hard for me to see him being reelected to be honest really Yes, bananas. Oh that is truly bananas. See that's the other thing that I wanted to talk about. You and Alex are, let me put it this way. Your world is closer to Alex's than it is to mine. If that makes sense to you, like, like being in the, in the media, being on

TV, being a character, not just in, in like the like the story of what's going on but outside. You're a main character in essence. And so is Alex worldwide. You're a main character, that kind of conversation. And so I find it interesting because that kind of social strata, at that level, it feels like Trump is gonna lose, right? Like, do you have conversations regularly with people in kind of your area that are like, okay, well, I can't believe that people would vote Trump again, right?

Uh, I would try to frame it a little differently. Cause honestly, I don't think I've asked more than a few people what their gut says about what's going to happen in November. It still feels hella far away. We don't know what the environment's going to look like financially, economically, for a balance, et cetera. But we did see at Davos recently, you know, articles from the Times and Axios and others

saying the conventional wisdom on the banker types was that Trump is coming back. And I think there is a certain, there is within I think some elite groups that sense of Trump coming back. With the caveat of course that those prictions are almost always wrong out of places like Davos. Here's, so I guess I would frame it the following way. I look at the country in

2024 and I see a dissolution, dissatisfied, depressed electorate, right? People who don't like these choices, who don't want to rematch, who don't want to rerun, but are sucking it up and accepting it's happening. I see a political class that thinks this is all really, really important. And then virtually everybody else saying, no, no, thanks. We don't care. We're shrugging it off. Right? I see these groups that are dedicated to defending democracy, that are doing all the right things because they're absolutely right. There are real threats. And yet, you know, how do you get your mother to care? How do you get your your your neighbors to care? So in an environment where it just feels like the the the the electorate is disillusioned, dissatisfied. With that said, I think we can also say Trump Trump doesn't have half the country. He doesn't have that many fans. He has what, 60% of the Republican voter electorate?

He has maybe 70% on a good day. He has definitely for sure tens of millions of MAGA loyalists, but not even close to half the country. Now, it doesn't mean he can't win, right? Because when you're faced with a red or blue choice, some people who don't like Trump are going to vote red. I understand that. But I think it's important to recognize that he's coming from a place of weakness right now, not a place of strength. And I think he obviously his whole goal is to protect strength. And I think it's important that we look at it in the in the precedent to point out the weaknesses that we see as well, like objective weaknesses, you know, not being able to come out of Iowa, New Hampshire with a higher percentage

No, do you think I'm just you think I'm nuts. No, no, no, I'm listening intently I'll go further than I'll go straight into and very strong opinions But I always listen to people in order to change I'll go further most Americans don't want an autocracy They don't they don't want that doesn't mean they won't vote for a wannabe autocrat, right? But most Americans don't want that. They we know that about what one in four Americans would prefer a strong man style leader.

We've seen that in polling for decades. Like we know there's a strain of authoritarianism in America that dates back to the founding has always been a minority, but it's a minority, right? It's not even close to a percent. So I look at the polls, I look at the rematch, and I think a lot of people are just going to stay home. And that means it could be a close election, and that means anything could happen.

But most people don't want to. I guess what I find interesting is that despite Trump having the mega media, having Fox, having all these sources, having all these outlets, having all this incendiary rhetoric, most people still aren't buying what he's selling. Right. There. Right.

End of the book. No, I understand. I understand. What I question is that, you know, even for naming your book, Network of Lies, you believe a lot of these people in the book, you know, like they're- What, believe them in what way? I mean, all of the sources in Fox News, the producers, the people who were there on the ground, you kind of have this almost blanket acceptance that they wouldn't be lying to you in a network of lies kind of off-air.

These are people who wouldn't lie to me. On air, they'll lie all they want. Right? Is that kind of the vibe that you take with you into Fox News? Because that's the vibe I got from the book. Yeah, no one's asked me that in that way before. That's a really interesting question. Why would I believe any of these sources? Yeah, why would you believe it? Why wouldn't they lie?

They're Nazis. So, so first of all, again, I reject that word. Yeah, I understand. I think. I guess one of the my takeaways having covered to basically a blog and covered and written about television news for 20 years now. For sure. And including Fox and CNN and MSN, we've seen all the rest.

And, you know, I've been on all these networks as a guest, even Fox, Greg Gufffield had me on Red Eye years ago, incredibly. Rest in Peace, Red Eye. I have, yeah, I mean, he put me on the cover of his book recently. I went to Barnes & Noble today. It was on sale at 50% off and I felt bad for him.

I feel like I've soaked in this swamp for long enough to feel like most of the incentives are the same. Most of the people care about the same things. Most of them are not degenerate liars. Most of them are not, you know, wholly a lacking in ethics, you know? Like most of them want to come over to their families and make a lot of money and yada, yada, yada.

Like most of them exist in a way that I can, now within that there are some that are, you know, incredibly monotonic and like, you know, author rockers and all that's true but like I feel like when I sit across from an executive at Fox or an anchor or a host of Fox or a commentator on Fox I can have a honest conversation I guess is the and maybe that's because I come from this what's that or is that off air or on air? Do you have off off air? You don't have the same comment on there. I don't know what it would be like to be on Fox as a guest And I don't think that opportunity is ever coming

Because they both brother. Yeah, they were they there's no no no openness to I have been pursued by Newsmax recently And I've been debating whether to go on Newsmax. And while in so far the reason I have not said yes is because I don't, I feel like it might be some sort of trap or, you know, I don't know if I would trust the host. There's no reason. There's no conversation to be had. I mean, like that's that's kind of the thing. We just covered the debate quote unquote that

Alex Glenn Greenwald and some other fucker. Oh yeah. I hadn't heard the other guy. Yeah. Destiny shit bag and the crass dick wads and it is it is so much like it doesn't matter. They made a good point. They made a great point. They dunked on him. It was an awesome point. And then Alex went and that's it. That's all it matters. It didn't matter that they said anything. It didn't matter that they had a point. It didn't matter. What mattered is it was entertaining and the people who want to go, there was a winner get to go. The big angry guy was the winner. Like there's no going into that situation that is not going to be just pointless for you and useful for them. That very much that does get to this this disconnect that I feel I tried to say earlier

like I'm just a reporter. Like he's the entertainer, right? It's right. I feel very much as if one of the root of all of our problems, at least in our media society, are those disconnects? Like you have lots and lots of reporters who are flawed but trying to tell people what's going on in the world. And they're up against this entertainment and propaganda thing that doesn't exist to compete with them editorially. They're not trying to beat those writers to the news.

Like they're not, you know, Jesse Waters is not trying to like get the scoop before CNN. Like, no, Jesse Waters is on a mission. His project is to is to take out the CNN to remove them from the playing field in order to advance a political agenda so that he has to pay less lower taxes. Like, absolutely. But but it's like a category. It's this constant category error because Fox News's prime time talk shows look like news. You know, they are framed like news.

They sit at news anchor desks. They have news looking graphics. They actually go in the field to news reporters sometimes. Like, it's all just, you know. Oh, yeah, for sure. I mean, Infowars has the studio, the trappings of, yeah, absolutely. To to provide a level of legitimacy that isn't there. Let me ask you.

It's very hard for a writer or reporter to compete with that, because what do you do? Like, how do you? What do you? It's like, where do you even start? Okay, sorry. No, no, no, I totally understand. I'm with you. I've got a comedy poster from an open mic I read on my wall. Yeah, I get it.

I do not have a studio. Uh, no, what I want to ask you about Jesse Waters. How is it that you know that Jesse Waters is doing all that shit? Doing what? What? Doing what? I mean, just like, do are you saying that you know this because it's obvious from the behavior are you saying you know this from yeah conversations from within are you saying that you know this from

knowing the guy um I I don't I don't know him personally I'm not you know no you know not interested right um if if I if he was a source I would I would avoid the conversation. I mean, meaning I wouldn't admit it anyway. I think like in general, I just look at these, the kind of the mega host people on Fox, the commentators, the right wing commentators, as they're mostly interchangeable, right? Jesse's more of like comic relief.

He kind of was, he was the Bill Riley sidekick and then he, you know, grew into this job and all of that. But he's putting on a very predictable show. But when I say he's doing it in service of political agenda, like I think that part's clear, right? Based on what he decides to lead his show with every night. He, you know, very clearly wants Biden to be removed and all that. Right. So you can see that right away. Now,

what confuses me, this is why I go back to this kind of blanket belief in the people that you're talking to at Fox News is that in a way, you are essentially calling all of them fucking stupid because they would have to be fucking stupid not to know what you know You know, they would have to be fucking stupid not to be able to look at what Jesse waters does and make the same Conclusion that you do so how is it that they can tell you like oh? Well, you know we have all of these things in place to kind of do all this stuff. And you not just go, you know exactly what the fuck you're doing. Well, I so I think foxes evolved over time or devolved over time. There was an era where they claimed to be fair and balanced for real. That was like a not just a slogan. That was

reality. And there was a time when if you called the channel conservative, the PR people would object and would complain and would go to your editors and demand a correction. Sure. That that that air is over. And there's not really a same kind of denial of what Fox does or is. So I don't I don't think I don't know if there's really a dispute there in terms of like, what is Jesse Waters there for? I kind of disagree with you. If you call Fox News an explicitly racist network designed and for the purpose of demonizing immigrants and people of color and non-white males, then the PR department will come after you. You are not allowed to say that on TV, right? Uh, they, I think they would, I think they would object, I think

the, well, you can say it, but I think they would object to the term racist. Yes. Right. Right. Uh, I think difference. They're lying about that in the same way they were lying about being a conservative back then. But you know, but you know how these arguments go. There is actually a problem on the southern border. There is a real immigration challenge in this country. They happen to talk about it a lot more than CNN. They happen to dedicate more resources to it. You know all the arguments they could make.

I'm not talking about arguments about that. I'm talking about the conversation that we just had about them lying you know like you as you pointed out they said way back when if you called them conservative their PR people would come after you and then of course the mass came off five years or ten years later whatever it was and they were always the conservatives right they were all it was always who they were they were telling you the PR people were angry at you for telling the truth. Well, yes, and the channel has also changed, right? Like the channel used to have more newscasts, you know?

They might have been conservative newscasts, but things that actually were designed to be news reports. Right. You know, the product really has changed quite a lot. I'm just saying on something like racist, obviously the pushback would be severe and what they would say are things like the following. Do you not think that there's an immigration challenge at the border?

Do you not think the border's an issue? But I'm just saying that this is, but these are our political debates now, right? No, they're not. They're go fuck yourself. That's the political debate. This is this is these are how these are our political debates now, right? No, they're not they're go fuck yourself. That's the political debate. They're they're bullshit. That's bullshit All of that is nonsense What are people talking about? Look when wasn't it Rhonda Santis who flew migrants up to?

Is that a crime? Can I ask you a question? No, but I'm just I'm just I'm just saying when Fox, you know, Fox makes sure, you know, Fox has the cameras there to meet the planes. Like Fox has raised the salience of the immigration conversation of the topic in a dramatic fashion. Like Fox deserves a lot of credit or blame or whatever for raising the salience to a group of people to get them on a plane and send them somewhere else Is that I'm just a media reporter. I'm not the no But I mean, that's my kind of that's my kind of response to you. Yeah, is you are talking about the the

Argument they're having I'm saying that Roger Sanders committed a crime I don't really give a shit what everybody has to say immediately following that beyond either that is a crime or that's not a crime. Do you know what I mean? There's no argument about the border until Ron DeSantis is in jail or I know that I can kidnap people. Well, except that that's the way your argument started happening. The debate's already happened. You can't can't stop you're not stopping it with your your point. Sorry. Exactly. That is what I'm saying.

That is what I'm saying when I say that you and Alex are kind of closer than you are to me. I can have no effect on that debate. Uh, do you know what I mean? Like I'm not a main character in there. Well, I see I'm so my instinct is to push back on that and to say, of course, everyone can make a difference. And I don't want to say that like a sarcastic way.

I would like to say in a sincere way. Struggle to make it come out, though. Yeah, I would love to to tell you that every voice matters. Sure. And. But listen, I'm on the outside now. I'm no, I'm no, I'm no seen an anchor. That's another thing that I wanna, that I'm interested in. Yeah, I'm not, you know, I don't even know where to find Alex Jones's show anymore.

Is there, is there a web, how do you find it now? I mean, I believe it's band.video. I should know that more off the top of my head. So like when I when I when he when he drunk dialed me that night. Yes. Can I just give the context? Tell me the whole story. We listened to his version of it.

And now I would like to hear your version. Yeah. So the phone call came from Justin Wells, who was our Carlson's like top producer, producing partner. And of course, when someone's writing a book about Fox and Tucker, the reporter, the author tries to reach the producer. So I had Justin Wells' phone number. So when his number pops up on screen, it's like 10 o'clock, I've been I've been drinking, but I wasn't looking to drunk dial anybody. So when he calls late at night, of course, I'm gonna answer like heck yeah, I'm gonna answer sure

So I answer I hear Alex's voice I don't know if it's really Alex or if it's an imposter like I kind of I played along in part because I wasn't sure if it was really Alex Jones, I wouldn't that be so disappointing if it was Those guys suck so bad. I hate that shit. I hate that. I'm gonna pretend to be yeah Yeah, I just I assumed it was the real guy that. I'm going to pretend to be. Yeah. Yeah. I just assumed it was the real guy, but I just didn't want to like I just well, it's two things. One, I assumed he was recording the call. Yeah. And two, I just I didn't want to, you know, go all the way down. I just wanted to like keep my guard up. But you know, they were obviously like trying to try and have some fun. And there was a point at which, and by the way,

as a reporter, my whole attitude with these kind of things is keep him on the phone. Like, let's keep talking. Like, also, my kids are something I've got nothing better to do. Like, this is entertaining, but like, keep him on the phone, ask a few questions. But anyway, at one point, we were like ribbing each other a little little bit and I made a comment about I don't know where to find his show I don't even know does he still have a show. And and he hit back with the why no you don't have a show anymore. I appreciate your point about the similarities, the certain kind of broadcasting world. Here's the big difference though, one of the differences,

one of the big differences between the two. Oh no, no, no, there's tons of difference. I'm not trying to say like, make them the same, I'm trying to say the similarity. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But the big thing that struck me was when I left CNN, when the Reliable Sources program was canceled,

when I was fired, for me, it ended up being the best thing that ever happened to me. You know, look, maybe in 10 years, something that I'll feel differently, but at least now, 18 months out, I've been having the time of my life. And so what it was so revealing is, Alex thought he was insulting me, right?

Like for him, it is a put down, like, ha, ha, you loser, you got canceled. And it's like, no, Alex, I just had the best day. Like I'm my daughter's class dad, like at school. Like I get to go off and write wherever I want, whenever I want. Like I have a great gig and a great life now. But it's so revealing because people like Alex Jones who are addicted to the red light, the red light on the camera.

It's a kind of a metaphor. It's a TV agents talk about this sometimes. They have clients who are addicted to the red light on the camera. It's a kind of a metaphor. It's a TV agents talk about this sometimes. They have clients who are addicted to the red light, who need to be on TV. That's how it's shown. He needs to be heard. He needs to be out in front of the world. And it turns out I don't have that addiction. And I've been relieved to learn that I don't.

But it was so revealing to me that like that was his insult. And it, you know, it's not insulting. I mean, I would say that I would say all of us have that addiction to a varying degree you know like I spent 10 years going up on stage for zero people you know later on more than zero but not enough not enough more than zero. I'll tell you that And so, you know that if I wasn't addicted to that at least a little bit, you know, I could have just not done this show I could have just gone back to a brick laying. I don't know why I've never laid a brick before in my life But I don't know why that would be my next gig Anybody brick layers? That's right there for you.

Right. So, yeah, I wanted to go down this one interesting thing in your book later on is the cavuto kind of, what? Revolt? Not revolt. So kind of what revolt, not revolt, like the Kavuto gentle slight pushback breeze during that time period. I just walk around thinking he's fucking noble. So I don't think I don't think I have the first hand knowledge to answer that question. OK, I think he's of a different. think I don't think I have the first-hand knowledge to answer that question. Okay.

I think he's of a different, I think he is like, he is of the 1997 Fox News and has somehow miraculously stayed and remained and been able to be on the 2024 Fox News, right? But he is very much a vestige of an earlier and different era. He has been there since the beginning. And I wish I knew exactly how to explain this. He's among the lowest rated hosts on Fox. Sure. His 4 PM hour. And yet, among the executives, one of the most respected. Like, because he is this,

he is this like real true, I mean, you're gonna think this is all BS, but like, he actually is an honest, he's an honest reporter, you know, he's a true teller. Right, right, so what you're saying is he made a pact with the devil? Oh, here, there you go. E. Gene, come on, come on. Ijean Carroll, the Ijean Carroll defamation, you know, settlement comes down and $83 million.

And he just honestly calls it a staggering amount. He has guests on who told the truth about it. And then an hour later on the five, the five PM talk show ignored it. Of course, didn't even mention Ijean Carroll's success. Obviously, that's a higher rate of show. The five is a really popular show. You know, Kubo is ours, not, but they keep him on, right? They keep him on and he keeps on going. And I respect that. I don't think you do. Let me ask you a question. Do they keep him on for you?

Well, that is an interesting question. That's, and I mean, you know, I don't mean you specifically, obviously, but I mean, in the larger sense, he is that pulling back from Tucker Carlson, right? He is the, he's the varying degree in the laundering process of bullshit. I am trying to look up the phrase that I have in the book for this because I don't want to misquote it. Oh, here it is. Yeah. I describe Chris Wallace, who decided to leave Fox in the end of 2021. He's now at CNN.

But there was this dinner that I described in the book where Laughlin Murdoch comes to DC and he's hanging out with the whole DC Bureau. Tucker Carlson show was based in DC. So Tucker is at the dinner and Tucker's sitting on one side of the CEO and Chris Wallace is on the other side of the CEO. And in terms of financial impact and identity with the brand, Tucker's the star, not Chris Wallace. But Fox really tried to keep Chris Wallace from leaving.

They tried to renew his contract. They didn't want him to go to CNN. And so in the book, I say a senior staffer called it a double or triple game that the Murdochs play. They make money from the Tucker people, the opinion people, but they reap other rewards from the news people. And so I think that applies to Kovuto as well. It's a double or triple game. Okay. So that imply that, I mean, that requires awareness. Yes. Right. So if you are aware that you are specifically hiring this person to give you a veneer of legitimacy, that means you're aware you are illegitimate functionally.

You can't not understand that as a concept, right? Well, legitimacy is an interesting word. I mean, how about we are mostly a right wing talking points brand But we occasionally want to have people on who to break that mold. I mean that that's not about legitimacy, right? That's about content. Maybe the reason we have these people on is To make the other lunatics seem less crazy Or it is to make us feel less bad about putting these lunatics on the air. Either way, it is somebody saying, I know what I'm doing is wrong. I'm a child knowing what I'm doing is wrong.

But see, you keep bringing moral and ethical arguments to a financial fight. Right? Sure, sure. No, but this is where we get back to the conversations that you're having, like I'm still going back. I don't, I don't let the shit go. This is why I'm telling you that I find it so fascinating that when somebody, when a Fox News exec tells you something, you don't spit in their face because there's, if this person is aware that what they're doing with

the five is what pays their bills and what they're doing with the four is what makes them feel good that they know what they're doing so they can't come to you and say you know, okay, well, kind of thing. Okay, let's let's try that a different way. What they're doing at four is the honorable thing to do, but what they're doing it for is what the audience wants. And what the audience wants is the key. But that's the, it, yeah.

Right, yes. Okay, but sure, but just, I think the audience is the key, is the point here. Like they are programming to- You're the one who brought morality into it this time. Ah, they are doing it to win ratings points, right? On every hour of every day to keep the, and so this is why I am somewhat sympathetic to the view

that, you know, they're, I don't know, I only wanna say it because they're gonna laugh. Yeah, I know. Held hostage by their audience. Yeah, yep, yep. I know. I know. How hostage by their audience. Yeah. Yep. Yep.

You can't get a, you can't escape that. And I think, I think part of the, the issue is again, I, I truly believe that it's, it's kind of almost evolutionary. We're social creatures and I can't talk to them. They are characters to me, the characters at Fox News. I can't, you know, I will never be able to interact with them. Despite the fact that they have a material destructive force upon my life, I can't push back on them whatsoever. Right? So it's easy for me to go fucking spit in their dumb fuck faces, right? But you have to, uh, I'm, it's entirely

possible that you'll go to dinner with them. Do you know what I'm saying? So doesn't it make more, doesn't it feel more likely that you would believe somebody who is lying to you? Uh, because, you know, I got to see them next week. Yeah. I mean, look, first of all, you know, I live out in the in the suburbs. I don't see these people in person very often just just to be honest. I'm not I'm not trying to paint you as anything that you're not. And I'm not trying to say that what you've done is any good or bad or anything like that. Well, I'm just trying to like this is kind of the mold of what it is that we're dealing with, you know? And you have firsthand intimate knowledge of it.

Well, here's a fun example. So, Alex Jones and others freaked out when I went to the World Economic Forum meeting in Davos last year. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There were these like, you know, propaganda stories saying that I was being paid and that I was there to promote disinformation

and all this stuff and, you know, they're paying for Brian Seltzer to go lie to us. They're all these crazy stories. And in fact, it was like, they asked me to moderate a panel. I paid for my own flight and hotel. Like it was, you know, I actually left today early because I wasn't enjoying the conference very much. I missed my kids. But like, it was cool to be, to see what it was, which what I realized is this is a giant networking event for rich people. Like it's just a networking thing. They just they're there to schmooze and see each other's and go to their parties. But I'm at Anthony Scaramucci's party and which was hard to get into this line out

the door. And you know, and former Trump official turned Trump opponent, right? And who do I bump into but Maria Bartiromo? Marie Bartiromo who more than any other person is responsible for the defamation case by Dominion who started the Dominion lie on Fox who? had the first interview with Trump after Trump lost the election and who who Indulged his delusions and encouraged his attack against the government. Not physical attack, but you know. Marie-Bernie Romo, who used to be this renowned CMBC anchor who now lives in a different reality

on a different earth than I do. And there she is, looking for a great glass of wine in this overly crowded party in Davos. And we smiled at each other and like, I feel like neither of us really actually wanted to have a conversation because it would be too awkward for both of us. So there is a point at which it's-

Why do you think it would have been awkward? Because I don't know who she is anymore. Where five years ago, we were at a party together and we were dancing next to each other, you know, on the dance floor in the Hamptons. And now it's like, there's so many, gosh, like now like you're sure getting turned to my therapist. There's like so much to say.

There's so many objections. There's so like, how could you have done that, Maria? How could you have done, you know, there's so much of that now in between us. And by the way, I don't think she's ever thought about me. Ever since she blocked me on Twitter, I doubt she's ever used the breath of her energy to talk about me or think about me. But my point is there are limits to the dynamic you're describing, which is real.

I have gone to lunch with folks from Fox and sometimes they pay the check-ins. Sometimes I pay the check-in. We end up in an all like it evens out. And we have great conversation and I learn a lot and I feel like we're on the same planet. But I guess I'm just trying to say there's also a point at which

there is such thing as too far or a point of no reach. What's the metaphor? Like there is a point at which it's not possible to have a dialogue. It's when Coyote looks down. That's which it's not possible to have a dialogue. It's when it's when coyote looks down. That's that's when it's not. I don't know that reference. What is that?

Wiley coyote when he. Oh, right. When he looks down. That's when the conversation is over. Well, there's there's definitely a point at which like you can't. And then and it is that point where you don't know if she'd even be. You don't know if you'd be able to believe her answers anyway. Right. No, I, I, here's why, here's what I'm coming to, to believe, coming to realize as we go

back through the past, you know, we've, we go back and we listened to Alex Jones episodes from 2003, you know, so we've, we did the night of Y2K, you know, we were there. Joe Rogan was there. Why not? Or no, no, no, Joe Rogan was there on September 11th. Cause why not? You also might have been there. Anyways, I, you know, people have said, Oh, Alex has changed. Alex's content has changed and all that stuff. And there are changes. What hasn't changed is the most important part. I I'm looking at so many people and we have this point of view of like they are different to me. I see them differently. And I find that it's more likely that the world has changed

around them. And these are the same people that they always were. I mean, you know, we, we talk about CNBC at the idea, but what you used to get away with saying as a, as a quote unquote liberal in the early 2000s was nuts. You could be like a fucking kill gay people. That would be fine fine that was on the tb i mean not so many words but it was all well obama's evolving on gay marriage it was all of these different words that we know now mean obama was fine with it but politically he wasn't ready to talk

about it so he was lying to us you know he would we'd rather put it that way. It's a little bit easier You know Obama didn't change Obama hired Geithner Obama isn't a hundred million right now because he's different. Do you know what I mean? So my question is that if you have that conversation with her Do you think it's awkward because she's changed her because you've changed? Again, back to the therapy.

There are some people and I put this in the book that some people say she's always been the same person. That at CNBC, she sucked up to CEOs. And at Fox, the CEO was Trump. And so she just did the same. She had the same sort of approach, but to politics as to business and with a businessman politician. And so there's, there's logic to that that there's actually a consistency. There's a through line. And maybe I'm the one injecting my own sense of moral superiority.

Um, I guess what I've, I guess I guess my trajectory or the journey or whatever. It's it's this sense of look, it what it does, it goes back to goes back to 2016. When it becomes clear that the fake news is actually a real problem. Sure. And I mean fake news meaning made up stories designed to deceive you, right? Right. There Google, Brian Stelter, Gitmo. You'll find a bunch of fake news stories to say I was executed at Guantanamo Bay after being fired by CNN. I think we can confirm those are fake news stories. But that day.

Right. Always possible. But that moment that Trump took the term fake news and redefined it to mean news he doesn't like, news you shouldn't believe. The moment that that happened, like we got fucked as a country, right? That really like deeply wounded us. And you might think I'm making too much of that moment, but that moment to me, that's couple days, it's two weeks later, they lie about crowd size, you know, and we're off to the races in terms of this disinformation campaign.

It's before we were even using the word disinformation, you know. But then we started using these terms to try to understand what was happening to our sense of shared reality. To me, this was, you know, these were formative years and I learned a lot about, you know, what my belief system, like my value system, right? And there's a lot of stuff out there that's garbage, but it's not disinformation. There's so much stuff out there that's nonsense,

but I wouldn't call it fake. I wouldn't call it a lie. Where I reserve my most attention, I guess, is for the straight up, like the provable lies. Now, here's why I appreciate you. You come at it totally differently from a comedy lens, like with a comedian's head on it, and you are so much blunter, right? You'll just, you know, you're so that's why I would use that word. I would use that word. But

you're making me think that Fox promoting Greg Godfell was genius, because a comedian is able to interpret the world around them so differently than like a nerdy old report. I would like to stop you very quickly. I know I just did that ever call gut fields anything similar to a comedian. Yeah, or give him any credit. I did it humor. I would I would rather shit myself. And I don't mean that from a point of view of his politics, anything along those lines.

I just mean that from a joke writing standpoint. Like we've we've gone back and forth on our show so often about like, okay, here's why conservatives should this is what they should have done to make the bit work. Like it's just what we do is we make bits work like we're the writer's room. So it's not that his politics are terrible. It's that he's a shitty comic. It's that he's not fucking funny and it drives me insane. And I can be a proof point for that because he has made dozens scores of jokes about me, probably more than a hundred all the very same fat joke. And it it makes me worry about his audience. Like, does he think this audience is asleep?

Like, does he think that they're not what? Like, they're not actually listening because they've they've heard the joke before. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's another thing. I'm sorry. Sorry. Bring up. That's just one of those. And you know, people who

here's generally speaking, it's a bad idea to insult people if you are using something that you could insult anybody else with. It has to be specific. And then it has to make them think about it later on. Like if you take a shower, the only good insult is one where if I have insulted you, you should take a shower the next day and go, oh, and feel bad about it. That's that's an insult. Well, he has not succeeded on that front with me.

Yeah. God. So but that. Well, I mean, even that, though, that aspect of a gut felt, we're going to put right felt on our network. Got felled on our network. That is as much a business decision of like, well, we want to diversify our stock or whatever it is, as it is like, well, we're not all lunatics. Yeah, I do think God fell the hiring of the promotion of gut fell to prime time. Well, first to give him a talk show, then a move to prime time. And then to promote Jesse Waters.

To me, it was very much a bring in the clowns approach, like sending the clowns, you know, we need humor. We're more than a news brand. I mean, I think it says two things. One, Fox is more than a news brand. It's a way of life. It is a lifestyle brand. It is an identity for many of its fans.

It's important to recognize that, like to face that for what it is. No, don't. Info wars, the... Yeah, same thing with Info Wars. Info wars, brands, yeah. And then second, I think leaning on humor allows them to get away with stuff

that they can't otherwise, right? In the same way that you see this with, with a lot of the kind of the right wing rhetoric around race, for example, or gender. Oh, I was just kidding, or example, or gender. Oh, I was just kidding. Or the, was he kidding? Like allows them to get to move the conversation, right?

Yeah, no, the joke is that they, that you let him get away with it. That's the joke. You know, like, like if, if you have somebody like Gutfeld say, you know, like, oh, we should put all black people in cages. You know, the joke is that you and I will go well, clearly he doesn't mean that. Right. And for the record, he has not said, no, he does not. And he has not said that.

I'm giving you an example. I'm not saying that he specifically said that, but, but like, uh, in, in any number, you know, in Anna Merlin's book in Republic of Lies, whenever she's going to these, these groups of people, these youths with their with their coats, you know, any number of things, you know, the far right youth. There is like that element of like, haha, we'll rape somebody. And the joke is that they mean it. The joke is that they're going to say this to her face, and she's going to watch them say it. That's the that's what makes them laugh. And that's kind of why it's horrific to compare them to humor.

There's also right. Well, there's also isn't there also an element of a this is our politics now right that we can't you on MSNBC at 10 p.m. Eastern time is Lawrence O'Donnell, who grew up in, you know, his deformative dog experiences, we're working for Moynihan, working, you know, in the Senate, working, working on Capitol Hill, learning how policies, crafted learning, how laws are made. And, you know, and he'll book senators as guests, he'll book Andrew Weissman, he'll book, you know, legal figures as guests. And that's the show up against Greg Gutfeld's insult fest, right? And the fact that on Fox, well, right, but they don't, well, he's a different audience, right? Lawrence rates well. But, but what does it say about the Fox brand and the Fox base that,

that it's a comedy show they've decided is what works and not a serious conversation about policy. You know, you see what I'm saying? Yeah, I mean, I suppose. You think they're all just too far gone that it doesn't matter that. No, no, no, no, no, absolutely not. No, I don't think that there's much difference, I suppose. It's like, okay, I understand how it seems like,

ah, disinformation 2016 was kind of a thing, but you go back and you read some of the political shit that they wrote in the 1800 elections. Go back and read about how Thomas Jefferson fucked a slave in the newspaper and they thought they were lying. Like it is that type of thing, you know, where I wonder if this is just we keep seeing America be America with newer shit. Okay. All right. I'm trying to get with the counter.

I'm trying to get with the counter argument to that is. America's good America. What are you going to do? Well, I'd like to say that I mean, I grew, I was born in 1985. So I kind of remember the nineties. We maybe, maybe, you know, we had a political environment that was not nearly as toxic and polarizing. Can we say that? Is that true?

I think that's true. I think that's another thing. That's another thing for me. We say that. And then if you go back and you watch a 90s movie, you're gonna go, oh, the R word was fun to say back then. Oh boy. They just tossed that about like nothing. You know, yeah, I recently rewatched the hangover and even more recent movie and I was surprised by some of the jokes. Yeah. Yeah. But that's but that's different than can neighbors disagree about politics

and not fear a fight. Definitely. Definitely. You know, that's where Trump has taken us is this fear. And it's what's led, I think, to the dissatisfaction and depression of the electorate that I was talking about earlier. People just are tuned out and checked out. They don't want to deal with it. They don't want to think about it because they don't want to get into that argument with their neighbors. They don't want to have that dispute. That's that to me feels like a kind of the world that Fox and Trump created or nurtured. Yeah. And Alex. Yeah. You know, I think I think it is a good question. Something of a chicken and an egg. How often these things coincide with a group of non-white people getting slightly more power? Right. You know, is it Trump's America or are LGBTQ

people getting slightly more representation than they were back then? You know, it's because now it's trans people. It's not gay people. 20 years ago, it was gay people who, should we be allowing them to be in public? You know, 20 years before that, it was anybody who's ever done drugs. Anybody with AIDS should be killed, should be dead. You know, like these are things that were there that we pretend didn't happen.

Like Reagan laughed at people dying of AIDS. That's pretty fucked up in the discourse, right? A little too young for that. My favorite analogy on the point about whites and power is Robert P. Jones, head of PRRI, this institute that does a lot of surveys on this topic. And he said, picture America as a dining room table where it used to be that white Christians

controlled who sat at the table and where they got to sit, right? Like the head of the family. And now, in an increasingly multicultural country, there's no single demographic group controlling the table. Everybody is invited to sit wherever they want. And that's what's deeply threatening and deeply unsettling to the core Fox viewer, like to the to the typical 70 year old white male Fox Christian conservative viewer.

That idea that anybody can pull up a chair is the entire story. All right. So if that idea is what makes was what motivates the Fox News program, how is that not institutionalized racism? It is our job to keep everybody away from our table. Well, I think they would say we are defending what made America great. So that's another good point. I don't want but I don't want to like pretend

to be the Fox pun and I'm not good at that. No, no, no, I'm I'm I'm interested. I'm interested in how it is that this is allowed to fly. You know what I mean? Like just like with you mean free speech. No, no, no, no. I mean, with the conversations with Fox News employees, you know, like that idea of you have just explicitly explained racism. That's what it is. White people should be the only people at the table. That's racism. There's no other way to describe that. Right? Uh, it's not exactly what I said, but okay, let's go with it. Sure. All right. And if that is what motivates their viewers, that is what they are doing. That is what they are. So if that is something that you know that we can talk about that is demonstrably provable, right? How is it that they are still allowed to say, you know,

like, well, no, we're defending what makes America great again without all of you going, no, fuck you. Fox is racist from now until the end of time. You know, every TV journalist said on TV right now, as we know, Fox News is a threat to the United States of America. These racist Fox. Do you know what I mean? Okay, we can go down your theoretical hole for a minute because even if that happened, which would never happen. Sure. What would the what would the outcome of that be? Let's find out. I think it would never happen. It would never happen. But I think the answer is even more disillusionment, even more

polarization, even more taking sides, nobody's opinion change, nobody's, nobody persuaded, right? Persuasion is no longer possible, right? I don't like to believe that's true. I don't like to believe that's true. I would like to believe that there are men, I actually think this, what I do believe. How about, let me rephrase How about let me rephrase that.

Let me rephrase that. I, you're right. That's unspecific. Persuasion is absolutely possible. Given the challenges that we face, is persuasion realistically a possible way to solve these problems? That's a better question, I think.

It is. I think there's, there have to be in there are areas of common ground that can be found and the media can help to do that or the media can make the situation a whole lot worse. And, you know, I think when we, when we look at an hour of Sean Hannity's show, that, that is making the situation worse. Like there is, he is not looking for common ground. He is not trying to find, you know, areas where we can make progress. He is so in division. But I think there's a lot of media that helps to show people

they have in common. That's like, that's the area that I'm more interested in. What do I have in common with people that are perceived to be my opponent? Maybe not all the way to Alex Jones' direction, but that's the difference, right? It's good faith actors versus bad faith actors. What you're getting at a lot with Fox is there's an assumption, and I'm not disagreeing with it, but there's an assumption in your comments that they are bad faith actors, right?

That they know that they are lying, They know they are doing damage. Yes. And I'm not claiming that's not entirely false, whatever. But like there are also people at Fox. I know some of these sources at Fox who are truly a genuinely pro-Trump who believe his policies are the right ones who believe X, Y and Z, who think Fox is doing the right thing, who believe Fox needs to fight harder for Trump's America, like who, like, and those are good.

There are believers. Believers, and I would argue that's a good faith actor, because at least I can meet him where he is. I agree, I agree with you. And like have the debate. Yeah. The problem I think we face. You cannot have a debate with a believer.

What are you talking about? We can have a discussion. Yes? We can have a discussion. Yes, you can have a discussion. Yes, that is true. We're coming up against the bad faith actors. That is the issue. It's like the bad faith actors who are there's nihilists, right? They just want to watch the world burn.

They'll say anything, do anything, whatever. That's where I have more scorn. I mean, then I'd like I have this problem with that argument every time because it's always applicable that kind of like oh you know not every not all bad apples argument right. My question then just always comes back to them like why don't the rest of you fucking descend upon them like ravens on somebody who talks shit like that should that should be your job. Okay, so fine. We all know that there are good faith actors. Why aren't all of you dog piling on top of Jesse Waters? And I mean

that physically. I mean, I want, I want you out there. I want Laurence O'Donnell out there. I want Rachel Maddow. I want them landing on top of these people. Do you know what I mean? Like, is it not your responsibility to police your own? So I think the idea that Rachel Maddow would view Jesse Waters as one of her own is hilarious. I do. I know you do. I do.

Very similarly. Um, I do. Right. I know you very similarly, but but she would, she would are she, she, she would laugh at you and say, I, she would say she is a scholar and author, a journalist and a broadcaster. And he is a paid monkey. Like he's a performer. He is a, he is, he reads other people's script. Like, for example, she writes her cop, her scripts. He, he reads someone else's.

I'm just, I'm just, you know, I'm just telling you that. Yes, they are on they are on channels close to each other on the cable dial. That is basically the only thing they have in common. And the I think you're getting you're you're you're getting something I think interesting about the the media kind of media accountability and holding people accountable and how seriously you take this stuff. The three C. And I think that's been a problem.

I think it's been a problem over the years that the national news media will focus intently on what Marjorie Teller Green is saying, for example, a freshman congresswoman with relatively little power, but not on what Sean Hannity's saying, who is, I would argue, more powerful, more influential. Like this is something that I started to realize in my years at CNN, when I would get emails from lawmakers,

text messages from lawmakers trying to get on my television, the television show that I hosted. I try not to say my show, because you know. That's your show. And I started to realize, I started to realize, like there's a power dynamic here, right? That they recognize that I'm the one with the pulpit every week. And I was on for only an hour and all that.

But like there is something really warped where Sean Hannity has more influence in the average GOP lawmaker. And so but but he's not covered that way. It's not it doesn't get new. That kind of news coverage. So I would say there should be more news coverage of what these opinion people are saying of what Jesse Waters is claiming of the conspiracy theories. They are promoting.

There needs to be more fact checking and coverage of it. You're you're coming out of from like a like take them out. I'm just coming out of from a let's take it seriously. Well, I mean, that's that's kind of there we go. That's the last question that I have for you and kind of the place that I want to end it is those three, obviously where we began because I'm a lit guy. There are three C's, you know, that civil criminal and canceling kind of thing. And I think of the Fox news verdict. I think of Alex and I think

of Tucker and I think of all of these people and I think civilly has anybody been held accountable. Alex is spending $90,000 a month. Now, will true accountability come? Hopefully. But as it stands, there's no accountability if you can still spend 90 grand a month. That's just, that's my rule. That's my rule in life. Until you spend at least as little money as me per month, then you have not been held accountable. And what's the latest with him? How are the Sandy Hook families trying to call the money back? Well, the most recent two settlement disputes

have been around 85 million and 55 million. So all, again, that 1.5 billion, that's not accountability. And the same is true for the Fox news settlement. You know, like I understand that they are going to pay that money, but Fox news also has an insurance company that's going to pay for this. And they have this, that's going to pay this. And really they have a profit margin of like $1 billion a year. So it's not like they lose money. It's that they make less money this year. You know what I'm saying?

And then they'll spread that out over time. They'll deduct that on their taxes. Frankly, this judgment will wind up saving them money in the long run. I don't know about that. I know, I know, but you understand my point as far as accountability is concerned. Yes.

This is not accountability. But these are the structures that we have in place. These are the options that we have. And to me, it does feel the courtroom has been the most productive in terms of format, forum for accountability. Right. So then we've got civil, then we go to cancelling, and that's ostensibly the media's job. You know, that is where the media gets together. We all dog pile on some asshole. Well, but to tweet something before they got on a plane one time.

But the media doesn't get together. I mean, but that's the this is this is like it's there is the. What's the ball gets rolling? The ball gets rolling. You know what I'm saying? Uh, sure. Yeah, sure. There's yes. But I I just I push back because I don't want to like give Alex Jones fodder for conspiracy theories. It's not a conspiracy, obviously. Obviously. That's why you talk to a clown is because people don't take me too seriously.

There was once a like some random blogger who wrote like, Brian Stelter talked about the death of democracy and quoted the same book on the same day as an MSNBC host. Who gave them the book? I'll follow that one. I'll follow that one. I was like, the library gave me the book. What do you think?

You think we get together for these meetings to plan which books we're going to cite on the air? It's happening now with Taylor Swift. Vivek Ramaswamy and these people out there with these crazy conspiracy theories that Taylor Swift is a Psyop that she's planted by the CIA influence 2024 election. Like what these people have too much time on their hands. If William said it to Shannon Sharpe, I believe it. That's just where I I don't know how to help people like not see ghosts, right? Well, and but

that's this is how I felt with the get more thing canceling and then criminal. It is impossible to hold these people accountable criminally, even when they commit a crime like Ron DeSantis did. So if if we're talking about these three levels of accountability, I feel like your book has definitively proven there's no way to hold pay powerful people accountable. I don't think that's the takeaway at all. I distance myself from your conclusions. I think the Trump trials are going to be really interesting. I'm interested in those as to the criminal trials. I'll tell you I put my money where

my mouth is. I bet 500 bucks on Nikki Haley because I think That ultimately Trump will be taken off of enough ballots to not be allowed to run That's where I put my money on it. That's where you put me. Okay, so I so you're saying the system's working Yes, that's what I'm saying The regime is working That's what that means. I'll take it The regime is working. That's what that means. I'll take it.

I subscribe to the Harvey Milk slogan. You got to give him hope. You got to give him hope. So I look around and I say the Dominion settlement was a lot of money. And yes, Fox can afford it, but it was painful for them. And I look around and I say Tucker being canceled suggests that maybe kooky conspiracy theories are not quite as

welcome at Fox as they were the week before he was on the like, you know, like, you know, a little bit, a little bit of hope. A little bit of hope here, Jordan. Totally. Those, those are like, I understand that I'm, I'm an asshole. So it comes off as though I invalidate kind of what are very, very valid things that you, you know, that's, that's true. That's very true.

And that's awesome. And it's something that we should celebrate, you know, I'm just a person who's always going to be like, cool, but why didn't you break his needs? You know, that's, that's where I live. Right. Uh, listen, your, your utopia sounds incredible. And I hope you can get there someday. Hey, if everybody has one eye, then I've done my job correctly and gotten revenge. That's a great place to end it.

Brian, thank you so much. This has been an awesome conversation. This has been a delight. I your book Network of Lies. Could you please advertise it? I'll hold it up again for the video viewers. Thank you for having me on. This was this was a challenge in the best way possible.

Why does everybody keep saying that about me? Well, thank you so much. And you have a great day. Thank you. Andy and Kansas, you're on the air. Thanks for holding. Hello, Alex. I'm a first-time caller.

I'm a huge fan. I love your work. I love you.