Knowledge Fight - #898: Tucker, The Man And His Twitter- Episode 6

Episode Date: February 12, 2024

In this installment, Dan and Jordan discuss Tucker Carlson's weird new interview with Putin, where Tucker gets an extended history lesson, gets sassed a few times, and then tries to free an imprisoned journalist.

I'm sick of them posing as if they're the good guys, saying we are the bad guys. Knowledge fight. Then endure knowledge fight. I need money. I need money. Andy and Kansas. Andy and Kansas.

Stop it. Andy and Kansas. Andy and Kansas. Andy and Kansas. It's time to pray. Andy and Kansas. You're on the air. Thanks for holding me. Andi and Tanzas, Andi and Tanzas, Andi and Tanzas, Andi and Tanzas, Andi and Tanzas, Just time to pray. Andi and Tanzas, you're on the air, thanks for holding. Hello, Alex, I'm a Christian color, I'm a huge fan,

I love your work. Knowledge Fight. No, no, no, no, no, knowledgefight.com. I love you. Hey everybody, welcome back to Knowledge Fight, I'm Dan. I'm Jordan. We're a couple dudes, like to sit around, worship at the altar of Selene,

and talk a little bit about Alex Jones. Oh, indeed we are, Dan. Jordan. Dan. Jordan. I have a quick question for you today. What's your bright spot? I think our bright spot today is the same.

I think so as well. It is your hyping-ness. I have hyped, and now that hype shall come to fruition. Right. So you did the work on this, so I'm gonna let you spill it out to the people as is as is our want every now and again I do a slight bit well awesome delegation of labor in many aspects yeah yeah yeah um

so we are going to do live shows watch What? We're going on tour, uh, ish. Many people have asked. They have. Why did you go to Scotland and London before doing any shows in the US? Any shows in the US? Well, except for Milwaukee. Except for Milwaukee.

No, we didn't know Milwaukee. Because we are who we are. And I thought it would be funny, and I thought you'd get your ass kicked in Scotland. It was funny. It was, uh, and I did not. It was a perfect plan that the Scots fucked up by not beating you up. It was it was the ultimate time for my comeuppance. But now that we are going to Boston, right? I think there are plenty of people who could kick my ass there.

That is true. So we can talk a little bit about the tour dates. Absolutely. Tickets will be available on Wednesday. We'll post the links to all the tickets. You betcha. But yeah, so we're going to start in Boston. Let's go through. And this to me is actually, I mentioned this to you. This is probably an emotional homecoming for me. I was really excited for this one.

If you ever thought there's a chance I might cry on stage, this Boston show is the possible time that's gonna happen because it's in Boston, which I grew up. I grew up in Boston and Cambridge for a number of years before we moved to Hawaii and it's we're performing at the Middle East. We're performing at the Mid East. They're Sonya venue, which this is the venue where like the Boston's made their live album this is where Mr. Lyft made his live album many other people who are but those two are big like huge things that I was into when I was younger and the idea of like it's so cool live from the Middle East and you're gonna have knowledge fight

live from the Middle East. Yeah it is it is kind of amazing to think about. It really it really is sometimes like when I when I stop and I go, you know, 15 years ago, I was like, man, I hope I'm on stage with the crowd of people. And then it is. You told me 15 years ago, listening to Mr. Lifts live album from Middle East. One day you will play at the same venue. Yeah. Never would have never would have imagined. Yeah. So day you will play at the same venue. Yeah, never would have never would have ever been imagined. Yeah. So we'll be doing that May 14th. Right.

Then on the 16th of May, all of this will be in May, we will be at the Rams Head in Baltimore. Right. The 17th will be at the Little Field in New York City. New York City. I don't know why but I cannot not do that. You. Because you love Pace Picanti sauce. I do. Then on the 19th we'll be the underground arts in Philly. Philly. Philly. Philly, where yet? Then we're doing a- I have one goal in this Philly show. Yes.

And that is, I would like to find Ed from the Real World Road Rules Challenge. I would like to as well. Somewhere in Philly, a smiley weirdo. Oh man, when he left and they had James or somebody else explain the challenge, not as fun. Ed fucking nailed it and loved it. Yeah, he brought life. You could, every time he was like, alright, so what we got to do is we got to put the thing together with the other thing and then everybody puts it all in the face. What joy. Yeah. Amazing. Some people think of Philly and they think of hostile audiences and like Bill Burr set and

throwing batteries. I think of Santa Claus. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Then on the 21st we're switching up. We're headed to Toronto. What? International. Yeah. Yeah. For some reason. Well Well I think that we have some Canadian listeners. We got we have we I would have liked to do a couple more dates in Canada but travel wise it's kind of logistical nightmare. Yeah. And then but you know it doing one there is nice because then they don't have to cross the border. Yeah. People who are in Toronto or around there it's we wanted to accommodate as best we could. Yeah. It's going to be a yeah. And then and then finally we will be coming back because and mainly

because people just assumed we wouldn't do it. We're going back to the X-ray arcade in Milwaukee. That's right. We're closing up the tour in Milwaukee. Going back to the seat of the crime. It is a delight. Yeah. People at the X-ray arcade were so great. Yeah. So so wonderful. Yeah. And the shows were so great that I just thought, fuck it. What a great. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So the other the only other thing about this is people are pretty convinced

that we are very popular. I don't know that for sure. And then the problem is our last shows have all sold out. Right. So I scaled up in terms of size of venue. That might be a mistake. The problem that I have is I here's what I'd like. Here's what I'd like. I would like for every one of these to be like, Oh, we were five tickets away from a sellout because then I can be like, that is the exact size of the venue we need to plan for. We need to do that whole thing. Right. I don't want them to sell out. And then it's like only five people would have made it. Because then the next time I'm like, fuck the venue. You know what I'm saying?

It is true that when things sell out really fast, it's almost impossible to gauge the upper limits of how many people might come to something. Right, right. Um, yeah, that's a scary proposition. You know, I don't, I don't, uh, necessarily a nervous. Yeah. It's always, it's always a nerve-wracking affair, especially because, you know, like we just do this ourselves. Yeah.

And, uh, yep. Yeah, it is. It is like, uh, listen, I don't,'t we don't we don't need to sell out everything We don't need to make a yourself. I don't make a ton of money, but I do need that I would like I would like a But mainly I just don't want to feel like it was dumb I don't want to feel embarrassed about that like oh, we're 80% full. That's great. That's still a good show Sure, you know, but but I don't want to, Oh, well, we should have gone half the size. That's not good. Because then we got a reschedule to have the size that you which wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.

It could be worse things. I, I, I, I'm excited to see what the, the, the, the turnout and roundabout and what about. Yeah. yeah yeah I think it's gonna be good I'm excited I think everybody's gonna be overjoyed and I think it's gonna be great yeah so look for tickets on Wednesday yes but get hyped yes so the hype has been paid off we've got double hype we got one hype from last week we got the announce hype from this week and then Wednesday we're gonna have the same we are basically marketing experts we were born to hype. Yeah. So Jordan today as hyped, we are going to talk about the Tucker Carlson, Vladimir Putin interview.

Right. That's right. I gotta say what I think we, I think I fucked up. Why is that? Well, I didn't account for things going bad. Like, do you mean the interview went bad? Yeah, I would say so. I'm sorry. Not bad in the fun way where like Putin kills Tucker. Well, that would be pretty right. Meet interview. Yeah.

But it doesn't go well. Yeah. Like, I was assuming they'd have their shit together. Sure. And there would be a coherent presentation that worked for both of their interests. Wouldn't that be the idea? And it really doesn't.

I'm sorry, did Putin go in there and wing it? No. Oh, okay. So he was going in there fully prepared. But I think he was prepared differently. He was prepared for not Tucker Carlson. I think that they were across purposes a little bit. Okay.

And it has a dissonance to it. There's a propaganda line that Tucker is working towards right. And then there's a propaganda line that Putin is putting forth right and they're not at odds with each other necessarily parallel. They're incompatible. That's fascinating. Not incompatible and into like a precluding way. Sure. They don't mix. Right, right, right, right. And it leads to an interview that is mostly Putin holding court and saying nonsense. That sounds right. And insulting Tucker at various points.

That's great. Yeah. That makes me feel great. And then Tucker not really doing much of anything. Right. Until the end. Okay. Where things take a drastic tonal shift. What?

Yeah. How do you interview fucking Hitler and drop the ball? Well, it's it. Like in either direction. You know what I mean? That is an interesting question and it's something that I don't really know how to process fully. Yeah. Because this, I don't think the concept of this right was

the biggest deal. It's horrifying. The idea of it. And when it's announced that it's doing this, it feels that way. It should be. And then after it happened and it came out, I really do think there's a bit of deflation everybody kind of ignored it Yes, which is even weird. It's So I don't have watched it. I understand I get it Yeah, the deflation because the people that would wish to push this really hard, right? I think didn't get what they wanted out of it, and it doesn't really work amazing. Yeah How that's you see because that's kind of my feeling on this is like I Mean I Yeah. How, that's, you see, cause that's kind of my feeling on this is like, I mean, I don't know if anything similar to this

has really ever happened. I struggle to find it analog. You know what I'm saying? Like, I mean, and we can describe, you know, similarities in terms of an interview with George W. During, you know, the height of our horrors but even then it's like he's technically a civilian you know he's not the dictator of the United States sure you know and you can also talk to like 50 other but man this is nuts but it would it would kind of

there's but it's still just not it's still just not but because you also have to ask like is it a propagandist for another nation interviewing but exactly there might have been that there might have been the case for like some British sure sure well yeah that that should that that definitely counts but but it's just not the same no it's very it's very hard to to put your finger precisely on like I'll tell you why Bush never sent Kerry to a fucking Soviet goddamn work reeducation camp that doesn't that helps that doesn't come up no no no that's strange yeah but I'm gonna say and then they drop the ball but I'm gonna I'm gonna say that at the end, Tucker does shock me. Okay. He does ask a hard question. Fascinating.

And that was something that I was not prepared for emotionally, but we will deal with in due time. Wow. So we'll get down to business on this whole interview. But before we do, let's say hello to some new walks. Oh, that's a great idea. So first impoverished white bread. Thank you so much. You're an hour policy want.. I'm a policy wonk. Thank you very much! Thank you, next Alex Jones appeared in my dream last night and I'll never forgive you. Thank you so much, you're an hour policy wonk. I'm a policy wonk. Thank you very much and accepted.

Agreed, yeah. Next, policy wonk and the chocolate bucket of poop, thank you so much, you're an hour policy wonk. I'm a policy wonk. Thank you very much. Thank you, next shout out to anyone listening to this who still plays Titanfall 2. See you on the frontier pilots. Thank you so much You're now policy wonk. I'm a policy wonk. Thank you very much Next I want you wonk he she we wonk wonk all the G the study of wonks. It's first grade Alex

Thank you so much. You're now policy wonk. I'm a policy wonk. Thank you very much Thank you, and we had a technocrat in the mixture. So thank you so much, too I've been listening to your show non-stop and can no longer sleep sober. Thank you so much. You're now a technocrat in the mixture, so thank you so much too. I've been listening to your show nonstop and can no longer sleep sober. Thank you so much, you are now a technocrat. I'm a policy wonk. I don't like to hype things, but people are designed to hype. I am going to paint once a week on air,

and I'm gonna let callers call in, but also take emails and request what you wanna see me paint. One, two, three, Matt Damon. Matt Damon. There you go. So party time. I'm going to get in your guts.

And the Nazis, in my view, were thugs that shook people down to a lot of really bad things. But they did good things, too. We're going to stop dissing the Nazis all the time. OK. I'm thinking about doing some shows, too, where I run the whole thing myself, just hit record, and sit in the dark with just a few candles and candlelight and

Talk about the nature of the world universe. I mean, you know a big old juicy ribeye folks is as good as you know sex with your wife And let's just get down to reality here. I'm gonna go donkey Kong King Kong crazy In about 45 days America sucks for all races. It's over. It doesn't mean I want to go live, say in some places in Asia, where you could off the plane over there folks. They karate chop you. Thank you so much. Yeah, that's that's a live show clip right there. You're not gonna get Karate. Yeah, absolutely. That's cool, man.

Serious stuff. Is that subconsciously motivated? Or was that part of my subconscious in the creation of the new technocrat drop? Mm-hmm. Is that subconsciously motivated? I'm trying, yeah. I'm doing it. Or was that part of my subconscious in the creation of the new technocrat drop? That's an interesting point. Was there a subconscious drive to hype? No.

I like it. I mean, it opens with hype, so. Sure. We start this episode with, I would say, anti-hype. The interview that Tucker puts out begins with the disclaimer that Tucker is putting forth. And so here is him delivering that. Okay.

The following is an interview with the President of Russia, Vladimir Putin, shot February 6, 2024, at about 7 p.m. in the building behind us, which is, of course, the Kremlin. The interview, as you will see if you watch it, is primarily about the war in progress, the war in Ukraine, how it started, what's happening, and most recently how it might end. One note before you watch. At the beginning of the interview, we asked the most obvious question, which is, why did you do this? Did you feel a threat, an imminent physical threat, and that's your justification?

And the answer we got shocked us. Putin went on for a very long time I do evil things about the history of Russia going back to the 8th century and honestly we thought it was a filibustering technique and found it annoying

and interrupted him several times and he responded he was annoyed by the interruption but we concluded in the end for what it's worth that it was not a filibustering technique there was was no time limit on the interview. We ended it after more than two hours. Instead, what you're about to see seem to us sincere, whether you agree with it or not. Vladimir Putin believes that Russia has a historic claim to parts

of western Ukraine. So our opinion would be to view it in that light as a sincere expression of what he thinks. And with that, here it is. So that disclaimer right there is pretty damning in terms of the interview and kind of tells you what you need to know. Yeah. There's three really important things that I think jump out immediately. Okay. First, Tucker is worried that his audience is going to be super bored by Putin lecturing them about Russian history. It is boring.

They've built him up as this championing anti-woke icon, so they want to hear him do some juicy dunks on cancel culture and LGBTQ folk, not a dissection of history. Second, you see how unprepared Tucker was for this interview and how poorly he handled it, which is something he's trying to get out in front of. Yeah. Putin went off on a rant about history that Tucker decided might be a stalling tactic, so he decided to push past it, which annoyed Putin. Tucker is trying to preemptively explain a bit of frostiness between him and the subject,

which is notable. I'm gonna throw this out at you, all right? And you can, you know, we can all take this as you might, but I think it has been a long time, in fact, since Putin has been interrupted at all. Well, I mean, he handles it well in terms of like he doesn't kill Tucker. I mean, yeah, that's kind of that's kind of the feeling that I would get of him just being like, wait, what are you doing to me right now?

And I think that because this is being done through a translator, I think there are some difficulties in terms of pacing. Sure. And so when you interrupt a person and then you need a translator, yeah, yeah, yeah, it is tough. Especially if that translator is again used to never interrupting God kings. Yeah. So the third thing you notice, you see that Tucker is having to come to the truth that Putin believes that Ukraine is part of Russia, which is not good,

and that he should be able to seize it. Yeah. He and the folks in his media sphere have spent years making excuses for and rationalizing Putin's invasion as secretly being about the things they want it to be about. Things that serve their underlying narratives. He's not conquering anything. The whole time they've denied that Putin was motivated by wanting to seize this land, because recognizing that means you have to be opposed to his actions and have to realize that Ukraine

is at the only place that he thinks is rightly Russia. But now Tucker has gone to see this man himself and has heard directly from him that he believes Russia has the right to Ukraine and Tucker saying Western Ukraine no less. And Tucker's reaction is kind of to feign confusion. In the real world he needs to fake that confusion because the alternative is to present this interview by saying, guys, we were wrong about Putin. Yeah, absolutely. I know it felt like we could use him to push our social bigot narratives and project our hopes for a strong man leader onto, but he is not who we pretended to be. That guy's nuts. Yeah. Tucker would never do that, primarily because the audience he's

cultivated is largely pro-Putin and something minor like wanting to take over a neighboring country. It's not gonna shake that. Yeah, so it's so I Don't know the framing of this disclaimer is so strange to me. Yeah, you know I understand book ending something with a hey Tucker Carlson here. This is the interview that I did with Putin Hope you enjoy. Yeah Hey, I thought he was fucking with us when he started talking about 900. That is truly insane. Yeah. That is, it is like, I, I, I whiffed this one guys. And here's, here's why I just, I guess, I guess it makes way more sense in two ways.

It makes, it makes sense in two ways. One, Tucker believes himself to be able to straddle the line between bullshit and reality. And if you live too long in bullshit, you're not. You're just not. You're eventually going to buy your own bullshit, at least enough that you will believe you're right about some things that you are absolutely not right about. So there are some things I'm sure he believed about Putin

that he was like, oh, fuck, I lied to myself. I got tricked the same way I tricked bullshit people. That might well be, but I think an alternative explanation can easily be that you have built up this image of this guy and you want him to comport to it, and he doesn't. Right, and then my next thought is, what did you think he was going to say? You know what I mean?

When Tucker is preparing for this interview, what did you think he was going to say? You know what I mean? Like, when Tucker is preparing for this interview, what did you think Putin was going to say? Did you think he was going to give you something new? Did you think he was going to be like, all right, here's the stuff I won't tell my people? Like, what are you talking about? Listen, Disney is too woke. I mean, he's, I know, I know.

Like, this is a dude who is created and alternate reality almost individually. Which is enforced on others. Which is enforced upon an entire country. And you think you're gonna challenge that dude? That's insane. Right. Yeah. He's gonna come on and just complain about like

Tucker's preferred culture warship. It's so America centric. AOC is bad for, what are you talking about? I really enjoyed your interview with Cat Turd. Yeah, absolutely. What? I listened to your show all the time, you and Alex Jones. So Tucker begins and he has, as promised,

the first question, why'd you launch this? Why'd you do it? And, ooh, bad off the off the jump here we go. Mr. President. Thank you on February 22nd 2022 you addressed your country in a nationwide address when the conflict in Ukraine started and You said that you were acting because you had come to the conclusion that the United States through NATO might initiate a quote quote, surprise attack on our country. And to American ears, that sounds paranoid.

Tell us why you believe the United States might strike Russia out of the blue. How did you conclude that? It's not that America, the United States, was going to launch a surprise strike on Russia. I didn't say that. не в том, что Америка... Америка не была в США и будет дать спрятанную спорту в России. Я не сказал это. Мы имеем ли это или серьезная conversа? Ха-ха-ха! Вот так!

Спасибо! Это формирование! Да, это серьезно. Но, поскольку у вас базовая образа... Потому что ваша основная изучение в истории, как я понимаю. Да. Because your basic education is in history as far as I understand. Yes. So if you don't mind, I will take only 30 seconds or one minute to give you a short reference to history for giving you a little historical background. Please.

Please. It goes a little longer than a minute. Yeah, I believe that. So in fairness, the Tucker Putin did say all that kind of stuff in the speech, rationalizing, invading Ukraine. Yeah, of course. He said, quote, I would like to additionally emphasize the following, focused on their own goals. The leading NATO countries are supporting the far right nationalists and neo-Nazis in Ukraine, those who will never forgive the people of Crimea

and Sevastopol for freely making the choice to reunite with Russia. Totally freely. They will undoubtedly try to bring war to Crimea just as they've done in Donbass. If we look at the sequence of events and incoming reports, the showdown between Russia and these forces cannot be avoided.

It's only a matter of time. They are ready and waiting for the right moment. Right. I'm not sure exactly what quote Tucker is referring to, but I wouldn't say that he's off on the premise of this question. But you see how Putin is kind of immediately a dick to him? That's not what Tucker was hoping for, I am sure. I mean, I, again, I just,

we're doing this for real. We're doing this seriously. We're doing big, big stuff. I just find it so fascinating. The idea of like, that was true then. You understand who I am. I'm Putin. Whatever I said then means nothing. That was true then. Now I'm telling you what's true and what is true now is also what's true then. It doesn't matter what happened. That doesn't mean anything. Yeah, absolutely. Like how are you insane? Tucker is a fascinating, this is a stupid idea. Right. But you see this like immediate assertion of dominance. I'm literally the fucking dictator of Russia. Do you?

Who do you think you are? First of all, the temerity to say this is going to take 30 seconds to a minute. Amazing. That's true. But if you're engaging in an interview, you really don't want the person to be like, we being serious?

You? I mean. Is it serious? Or is this like one of your shows? I that is so delegitimizing just from the job. Yep, it is. It is. You have to recognize at that moment.

Like, uh-oh. Yeah, you. Yeah, I mean, I would one, I would never be here ever. No, but no, I can't even find any. No, my actions in this moment would be attack Putin with a knife, I guess that's all I've got. And I think that having said that, you probably will never be granted that interview. Yeah, and I would be killed long before I ever even got close.

So we get into this minute-long discussion of Russian history. Yeah, just one minute. Let's look where our relationship with Ukraine started from. Where did Ukraine come from? The Russian state started gathering itself as a centralized statehood, and it is considered to be the year of the establishment of the Russian state in 862, when the townspeople of Novgorod invited a Varangian prince, Rurik, from Scandinavia to reign. In 1862 Russia celebrated the 1000th anniversary of its statehood. It's a long time to skip over, just throwing that out there.

And in Novgorod there is a memorial dedicated to the 1000th anniversary of the country. There is a memorial dedicated to the 1,000th anniversary of the country. In 882, Rurik's successor, Prince Oleg, who was actually playing the role of regent at Rurik's young son. Oh my god. Because Rurik had died at that time. Excuse me, Supreme Leader, I'm going to stop you there, right there. He asked the two brothers who apparently had once been members of Rurik's squad. So Russia began to develop the two centers of power Kiev and Novgorod. So this is not the kind of interview Tucker wanted to have and I'll go ahead and throw myself

on that pile too. This is not the kind of interview Tucker wanted to have and I'll go ahead and throw myself on that pile too I agree. This is not the kind of interview. I particularly wanted No I think it can be very interesting to know about history and understand the forces that shaped how we got from there to here and even People's maybe iffy interpretations of some things sure, but I don't care if Ukraine was part of Russia in the 800s That doesn't mean you get to take it now No We aren't gonna necessarily go blow for blow as Putin lays out his version of the history of Russia,

because there's an easy way to encapsulate the point he's making, and Tucker said it himself in the disclaimer. He thought this was a stalling tactic, so he's not in any position to engage with anything Putin is saying about history. It's a long, intellectualized pitch for his form of Russian nationalism, which essentially includes claims to areas that were formerly part of Russia. And if this is enough of a part of his motivation to talk to Tucker about it for half an hour, it might be wise to consider what other parts of the world that were formerly Russia he feels the same way about. Might be notable.

It is a pretty big nation at some points. Various points. Over the that very large from 864 on There's a full thousand years that he just kind of it's true knocked over there A lot of stuff happened in that thousand years You know a lot of stuff was and was not part of Russia during that thousand different points. Yeah Change so here's the thing though. Yeah, the T. S. documents. Oh, well, this is sold me this was what I would describe as a very bizarre moment in the diatribe but history. Okay. And in 1654, even a bit earlier, the people who were in control of the authority over that part of the Russian lands addressed

Warsaw, I repeat, demanding that they send them to rulers of Russian origin and Orthodox faith. When Warsaw did not answer them and in fact rejected their demands they turned to Moscow so that Moscow took them away So that you don't think that I'm inventing things don't care I'll give you these documents Well, I it doesn't sound like you're inventing and I'm not sure why it's relevant to what happened two years ago But still these are documents from the archives copies Here the letters from Bogdan Milovitsky

The man who then controlled the power in this part of the Russian lands That is now called Ukraine Here Putin is in the middle of making an argument that way back in the past the Polish were trying to convince the people who lived in what is now Ukraine to see themselves as a distinct people from the Russians. The people who were in power wanted Orthodox and Russian leaders in the area there in Ukraine, which is evidenced by this letter from Bogdan Helminsky. Yep. It is worth noting that Helminsky was a Cossack who led a rebellion in that area, which was largely predicated on anti-Semitism. He wasn't just opposed to the Polish influence in that region, he specifically believed that the Jews were behind the Polish

control. His uprising, which culminated in the Paryslav Agreement that made eastern Ukraine part of Russia included the mass slaughter of tens of thousands of Jewish people. Yeah. Obviously the point of the story in these documents here is to present an analog to the present day. Back then these folks wanted a Russian and Orthodox ruler. They called out to Warsaw to try and get it. They didn't get it. So they called out to Moscow and Moscow fulfilled their desire. Today the people in the Donbass region and apparently all of Ukraine want to be part of Russia and call out for Moscow's protection. This is supposed to be a historical antecedent to illustrate that Putin's actions in the present day are no different than what's

always been done through Russian history. Areas around the fringes become decadent. Their people call out for Moscow to install righteous leaders and Moscow begrudgingly in heavy quotes comes to their aid. It's strange that Tucker seems to not get this dynamic of what Putin is saying. It feels like he would have to be pretty checked out or really convinced that there was no meaning to what Putin was saying for this context to slip by him. But here we are. I think he really just wanted to pile around and complain about Bud Lightcans with Putin and this is where we've ended up. Like I, like, okay, I get it to be surprised by Putin going into a lengthy treatise about history, but to imagine he's doing it for no reason is silly. Yeah. There is

a point that he's trying to make and the premise of the question was why did you invade Ukraine? Yeah. This historical story is an explanation of a rationale for it. And Tucker engaging with it as if it's a filibustering technique is strange. I don't think it's strange. It makes perfect sense. Well, because he's Tucker, you know, like this is not something that either of them really understood the other one. I think that both of them were lying to themselves about who the other person is.

And then because neither of them live in reality, like they both have created their own false reality that they get to live in and they have infinite power within. So why would they ever consider that another person doesn't live within that reality? Or that if they don't, they should care? I guess there is sort of a distorted relationship that comes from Tucker's engagement with Putin is largely around the, I can use him for this in my stories. And then Putin's relationship with Tucker is probably like,

I could probably use that guy. Exactly. So there's a potential use that Putin has for Tucker and there is a narrative use that Putin has for Tucker and there is a narrative use that Putin serves for Tucker. And those things aren't really the same in reality. Yeah. So long as, so long as they are separate in terms of one is in Russia and one is the United States, you know, so long as they are in separate media environments, it doesn't matter if the Putin you have created is it all related to the real one

Yeah, nor in the same thing is true for the Tucker being forced to interact is A collapsing of the imagination wave and and because because here's the thing in Russia It's important to remember that Putin is not going like I'm going to do an interview with a fucking clown Who interviews cat turd he is saying I'm going to do an interview with one of the most respected journalists in the United States that's what he's telling people and I'm going to disrespect absolutely like it is it is amazing to think that realistically neither of them had any idea of what they were doing. Fascinating. Yeah.

And I think that that is what keeps this from being like the most dangerous version of what it could be. Yeah. You know what I mean? I think they both dropped the ball in such a way that makes this kind of impotent as propaganda material. Nobody wants to watch it. Well, I think some people have been able to rationalize

with themselves of like, ha, Putin brought up the, the, the, right. Yeah, whatever, whatever it is. You're slob the wise. Right, right, right. Whatever the fuck. But like, yeah, I think most people are probably like, this isn't, this doesn't work for me.

This is the internet now, man. It's not exciting. This is the internet. I'm not going to listen to you of all people explain Russian history. So Putin has gone on and Tucker, I think is a little bit like, can we get to the point? Yeah. If you believe this stuff about Ukraine historically, then why didn't you invade earlier? Yeah. And Putin is does not appreciate the question. That's surprising. May I ask you, you're making the case that Ukraine, certainly parts of Ukraine, eastern

Ukraine is in effect Russia has been for hundreds of years. Why wouldn't you just take it when you became president 24 years ago? You have nuclear weapons, they don't. If it's actually your land, why did you wait so long? I'll tell you. I'm coming to that. Nuclear weapons they don't if it's actually your land. Why did you wait so long? I'll tell you I'm coming to that This briefing is coming to an end. It might be boring, but it explains many things. You just don't know how it's roll Good Yikes. Tucker is real weak in this moment.

Yeah. He had to basically just stammer out. I don't see how this is relevant. Almost under his breath. And I don't think he's wrong to be a little embarrassed to say that because it's really clear how this history lesson is relevant to Putin's ambitions and motivations. Yeah. The issue is that it's not very relevant to the fantasy version of Putin that the right

wing media has built up. They've got a million culture war adjacent reasons that Putin is fighting off the villains in Ukraine, basically trying to save the West from godlessness and low birth rates. And if those are the issues that you really think he's fighting about, the history of Russia from the 800s onward is not really that relevant. Focusing on it is actually counter to the version of his motivations that you've built up because he's not supposed to have ambitions to seize territory It's not about seas

People who say that that's what he's interested in are warmongers and liars who hate the West and yet here Putin is basically saying exactly that And defending his position with a lengthy treatise on why he's right to take territory Tucker's question why didn't you do it immediately is really dumb and isn't designed to go anywhere. Putin may have not been in a position to invade previously and there might have been some pretty Russia friendly leaders in Ukraine over the years, so he might not have had any means or motive until fairly recently, probably about when Ukraine threw out Viktor Yanukovych in 2014. The question from Tucker just seems like him wanting to throw out something to research some Kind of control over the conversation, which he has none. Yeah, there's no control on his part. Here's what I find fascinating

So much like now I'm actually Extremely interested in this interview in a way that I would never have been if it was an actual propaganda right dynamically It's bizarre. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And almost deserving of study. And there's a lot that is coming out that is revealing assumptions that I didn't even think about, you know? But like if you stop and you consider this conversation,

you can see that the real disconnect is the disconnect between Russia and America in terms of age. Russia wants shit back. You know? Like if you want to appeal to American colonialism, you go, God told me to take it back in God's name. You do manifest destiny.

But we've already taken it back. The current state of affairs is us having about it. Well, except for some- No, no, I'm not talking about us doing anything. I'm talking about for Putin to give him the propaganda coup. You tell America, you tell Tucker Carlson, like God said, now is the time you just keep hitting God over and over and over again. And Tucker can like wash away all the other bullshit. But the but the but you could go for that spiritual aspect or what Tucker probably wanted is there is a particularly evil deep state in place

that we must now seize control over. There's the weapon labs in Ukraine. Right, right, right. He wanted something that fed into those narratives that play really well with his audience. And the spiritualism is also one of them. Yeah, you can always jump from that stuff to being like, and also the deep state is controlled by that. That's what we do. Sure. Yeah, yeah can always jump from that stuff to being like and also the deep stages control

Yeah, you know, that's what we sure. Yeah. Yeah. I gotta take my demon one time. He threw me in the sea Oh, totally right 100% Yeah, absolutely. So so it is fascinating because that is that type of old world colonialism of like no That was ours. You can't just take it, you know, whereas America is like Just because it wasn't ours doesn't mean we can't just take it, you know? Whereas America is like, just because it wasn't ours doesn't mean we can't just take it. Sure. And I think there's an interesting analog to this mentality too of like historically this was a part of our country. Absolutely. And that is the parts of your country currently historically weren't. Exactly. So if you're obsessed with this, you should give back. No,

it is. Take away land from you. It is so fascinating. You don't see people doing that much. And it is such a ridiculous idea on its face where you're like, okay, so for a thousand years it was yours. Okay, well a thousand years before that it wasn't yours. Which one matters more? It doesn't.

Neither of them mean anything. Just say you want to take control of more people to kill. I don't know. What's wrong with you? You lunatic? Yeah, it's a struggle to figure out what date matters. Yeah. So Tucker has an interesting question to this, this, this notion that Putin is putting forth that like, you know, historically Ukraine is part of Russia. We get it. But then there's other parts of Ukraine that were historically like parts of Hungary. Right. So what about

that? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. that's a that's a fair follow up It is a fair follow up. We have every reason to affirm that Ukraine is an artificial state that was shaped at Stalin's will Do you believe Hungary has a right to take its land back from Ukraine and that other nations have a right to go back to their 1654 borders borders. I'm not sure whether they should go back to the 1654 borders. But given Stalin's time, so-called Stalin's regime, which as many claim, saw numerous violations of the rights of other states. What? What? One may say that they could claim back those lands of theirs while having no right to do that. It is at least understandable.

Have you told Viktor Orban that he can have part of Ukraine? Never. that he can have part of Ukraine? I never told him. Never. I have never told him. Not a single time. That's good. So I think that you start to get a little bit of a vibe that there's not really good answers. Because his answer was kind of yes and no.

Well, yeah, I mean, it's a terrible, it's a petulant, whiny question. The question is not actually meant to be answered. The question is like, clearly you're full of shit. You know, which can he have the 1654? Obviously you don't care, nor do you want that to exist. It's by your logic. Yeah, or take part of it, too. Absolutely. Yeah, you're being an asshole.

So stop it. And he's like, I'm not going to tell him you can take that shit. Why would I? I'm crazy. But, but so the dynamic is interesting because that isn't necessarily what you would expect from Tucker. And I think part of it is because Putin's being disrespectful to him. He feels his ego a little bit ruffled. Yeah. And because he thinks that all of this is a stalling tactic. So this isn't even meaningful conversation to begin with. Nope. So I think that this is kind of like, I'll just throw this out here to push back a little bit as opposed to it being

part of a productive analysis of like, this is what you believe about Russia. I, I can tell you this right now. If this was the interview that I had with Putin, I would be checking every piece of clothing I ever had for Novichok for the rest of my fucking life. Like every single thing. I don't mean to be too rude, but I think I wouldn't put it out. No, no, no, you can't not though. That's the problem. Once you say you've got an interview with Putin, what people know you have an interview. I might have pretended that I was

going on vacation to Moscow and like, I maybe never would have announced that I didn't interview. I wouldn't have done that. Yeah, absolutely. This is not something you put out, but you can't not. You're literally interviewing Putin. Yeah, it's not as a momentum of its own. Yeah. So Tucker tries to redirect this conversation because I don't think he enjoys the historical lesson. For sure.

And so he tries, and it doesn't work. But many nations feel frustrated by the redrawn borders of the wars of the 20th century and wars going back 1,000 years, the ones that you mentioned. But the fact is that you didn't make this case in public until two years ago, February. And in the case that you made, which I read today, You explain at great length that you felt a physical threat from the West in NATO, including potentially a nuclear threat, and that's what got you to move.

Is that a fair characterization of what you said? I understand that my long speech is probably full outside of the genre of the interview. That is why I asked you at the beginning, are we going to have a serious talk or a show? You said a serious talk. So bear with me please. We're coming to the point where the Soviet Ukraine was established. Oh my god.

Alright, okay, so you're gonna kill me then. We're just gonna keep going back to what I want to talk about. So also Tucker is incredibly wrong there about this idea that you never made this case that Ukraine isn't even really a country Yeah, which is the point that Putin's putting forth Yeah, he's been very clear in the past that he doesn't think the Ukraine is actually a country There's reporting on this going back years and he famously told George W. Bush quote You have to understand George that Ukraine is not even a country. Yeah, it was at the 2008 NATO summit. Yeah. Tucker should have every reason to know that this is Putin's position and something that he said pretty regularly. So it's a meaningless question to ask him why Putin only started saying this stuff in 2022. The premise of

the question is a lie meant to force Putin into a hollow gotcha moment. But there is no gotcha, except in terms of Tucker's unpreparedness for the conversation. And of course, Putin talked about being under threat from NATO in the West. That's how he made his aggressive action a situation where he was actually the victim, which is a narrative that Tucker is consistently pushed

on his own show, along with a large chunk of the right wing media. Right about now is when Tucker should start wrestling with the fact that he was played, and he's continuing to be played in this interview Very willingly though. Yeah, it's just not fun in the moment And to that point I made the point on our last episode that I think Tucker is a willing participant in Putin glorifying Propaganda, and he's not being a useful idiot in this whole thing. Yeah, I stand by that

But I don't think he was expecting this yeah He was expecting a pro-Putin interview that stayed mostly in the territory that relates to the curated version of Putin that plays well to the American right wing audience. This is the version that Tucker is desperately trying to get to with questions about being under threat from NATO. He's trying very hard to pivot this conversation

into territory he knows will fly, meanwhile, Putin's just being himself. Blunt kind of a dick and making no secret that he feels like he has the right to Seize most if not all of Ukraine because it's not really a country. Yeah, and that's That's again. I find it so fascinating Because in this situation the obvious thing to do is collaborate on the interview. Yes, that'd be insane not to It's insane that Tucker's people didn't talk to it's

fucking God damn Jimmy Kimmel pre tapes interviews and shit you do There's there must have been some Pre interview something there has to have been but but I'm how but see this like do you want to do a show or a Serious interview right I think that wire must have been crossed I think so But somehow, see, this like, do you want to do a show or a serious interview? I think that wire must have been crossed somehow. I think so. I think neither of them understood what they meant. Right.

Putin was like, oh, so a serious interview. I will give you a lecture. And Tucker's like, when I say serious, what I mean is the other one, but I can't because I have too much pride. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can't say I'm a fucking hack clown, you know. But man, it is like, how is it possible that Putin's people didn't go, okay, well, ultimately if we put all of the future of this put together,

Trump needs to be in the White House for us to have complete and free reign to take whatever we want, right? So the idea behind this interview has to be, galvanize the right wing in the United States. That's the strategic move for Russia right now. How do you not know? How do you not have people being like, here's what the right wing fucking loves, feed them this over and over and over again, and you'll get whatever you want out of it?

I think because perhaps the interview is predicated on the idea of a conversation about Ukraine. Yeah. And I think Putin went in ready to make his rationalization and justification for the invasion and why it's not really an invasion because they're not really a country. And that isn't like what it's meant to be. It's not what would work best. Yeah, it should be. This is one of those big moments that should always

be hammered home again and again and again. No people should have this much power, because if you have it for any length of time, you become a fucking moron and an idiot. Maybe you should be checking your clothes. I will be. So Tucker asks about like why relations didn't get better between Russia and the US after the Cold War good question

And you've mentioned this many times I think it's a fair point and many in America thought that relations between Russia and the United States would be fine with the collapse of the Soviet Union the end of the Cold War that the opposite happened But you've never explained why you think that happened except to say that the West fears a strong Russia But we have a strong China the West does not seem very afraid of I'm sorry Is Tucker saying that the US or at least a wide swath of it is not afraid of China? Tucker and his buddies screamed about China all the time and Congress has been holding bizarre hearings to try to ban TikTok because of fears of connections to the Chinese government. Again, Tucker's question is based on a false premise, namely that the US as an entity isn't afraid of China. This is based on a further false premise,

which is that Putin has never spoken of why relations didn't get better between the US and Russia post Cold War, other than to say that the US is afraid of a strong Russia. As you might get the sense from the beginning of this interview, Putin has a lot of thoughts about history and he isn't really shy about sharing them. If Tucker thinks that Putin hasn't talked about this stuff, it's because Tucker has avoided learning about the subject. And that's a bad position to be in. Because when you say this kind of shit and you're like, well, no one's afraid of strong China, Putin's gonna be like, what the fuck are you talking about? We have a strong China the West does not seem very afraid of.

What about Russia do you think convinced policymakers they had to take it down? The West is afraid of strong China more than it fears a strong Russia. Because Russia has 150 million people and China has 1.5 billion populations. This economy is growing by leaps and bounds. Over 5% a year it used to be even more. But that's enough for China. As Bismarck once put it, potentials are the most important. China's potential is enormous. It is the biggest economy in the world today,

in terms of purchasing power, parity, and the size of the economy. It has already overtaken the United States quite a long time ago, and it is growing at a rapid clip. Let's not talk about who is afraid of whom. Let's not reason in such terms. And let's get into the fact that after 1991, when Russia expected that it would be welcomed into the brotherly family of civilized nations, nothing like this happened. The trick is, I don't mean you personally when I say you. Of course, I'm talking about the United States. The promise was that NATO would not expand eastward

But it happened five times damn Tucker. That's got a burn Putin just took down his whole the US isn't afraid of China premise these two men are at odds about what propaganda game They're trying to play and that tension is hurting the end product Then Putin's just wrong about NATO expansion It's been very well documented and explained that in the proper context, the agreement not to expand was in relation to East and West Germany, not about other countries. That said, this is finally a point that he's making that Tucker is likely to want to engage with. He has talking points on this. The audience is primed to understand it through their lens. So hopefully you would think that this is

where you get the ball rolling a little bit and Not really, but it's it's an opportunity. I hate ease Such a like oh man. Do you guys know how much easier it is when you believe in reality and you just share it? It's so much easier to have a conversation. It's so easy. You're just like here's the outside. I agree It's the same look at that tree. Oh, there it is amazing yeah, it's I don't even fully know the best words to put on it to describe like this kind of dissonance between them. But there is just there's something and who knows how much of it also is just the difficulty of communicating through a translator. Like I imagine that hurts some of the fluidity of conversation

for sure. And I think that that can make it more difficult to ask follow-ups, get the rhythm of conversation going, but I can't account for all of it. There's so much more going on. And I imagine there's tone that is lost. Sure. Yeah, definitely. So there's another thread that runs kind of throughout this. And that is that Putin feels wronged. Sure.

Certainly by NATO expanding. Yeah. And then by various people that he keeps bringing up, people like Clinton, Bush. Sure. Hey. All sorts of world leaders that have done him dirty. No, it's okay to have a paranoid former KGB guy run an entire country. That makes perfect sense.

So he talks a little bit about Clinton here. Yeah. At a meeting here in the Kremlin with the outgoing President Bill Clinton, right here in the next room, I said to him, I asked him, Bill, do you think if Russia asked to join NATO, do you think it would happen? Suddenly he said, you know, it's interesting.

I think so. And in the evening we met for dinner. He said, you know, I've talked to my team. No, no, it's not possible now. Too many JBS people around. Sorry. You can ask him. I think he will watch our interview. he'll confirm it. I wouldn't have said anything like that if it hadn't happened. Okay, well, it's impossible now. Would you have joined NATO? Look, I asked the question, is it possible or not? And the answer I got was no. If I was in sincere in my desire to find out what the leadership position was but if he had said yes, would you have joined NATO?

If he had said yes the process of Approachment would have commenced and eventually it might have happened if we had seen I like that it didn't happen something Selfie on that, Putin. No means no. Okay. Okay. No means no. You don't want me. I'm gonna go over here. Listen, I would have voluntarily given up power like most dictators I know. I would have absolutely removed all of the rampant corruption in our government. I'm definitely not the richest person in the world by a vast margin. I would definitely Yeah, I would I would have joined NATO what that is oh How can you be that stupid you mean Tucker? I don't know all of us all of us on this planet

You know like it is it is kind of amazing that Putin still alive That's incredible to me to nail it for that long whenever you're the most killable person alive right now. You know what was nuts? I didn't even realize this. I was looking, I just read, I was reading an article about him and it was like, he's 70.

Yeah. It's like, you know, he's 71 now. Like, that's shocking to me. It's amazing. It is amazing that he has not been killed because it's just, you feel like you's shocking. It's amazing. Yeah. It is amazing that he has not been killed because that is that it's just you feel like you have to the moment that a guy got poisoned on a plane and they made a documentary about it and then the idiot went back and they put him in a prison forever. You're like, well, this guy, I don't think he's going

to give up power ever. No, he's probably gonna join NATO. If only Bill Clinton had let him. I mean, it's amazing. Yeah. Amazing. And you can see there's the seeds of something that Tucker is really going to enjoy in that story, which is that Bill Clinton, the elected leader, was like, Hey, maybe this is possible. And then his team said, No, which is the deep state. Right. There's these kernels of things that could be worked with so useful, but they aren't going to be used to their greatest potential because there is something that is not working between these two dudes. So weird.

And some of it is probably just personal disrespect because Tucker uses a poor word choice here when he's talking about this, not getting into NATO. Okay. Why do you think that is? Just to get to motive, I know you're clearly bitter about it, I understand. But why do you think the is? Just to get to motive, I know you're clearly bitter about it. I understand. But why do you think the West rebuffed you then? Why the hostility? Why did the end of the Cold War not fix the relationship?

What motivates this from your point of view? You said I was bitter about the answer. No, it's not bitterness. I have never felt bitterness. It's a fact. We're not bride and groom, bitterness, resentment. It's not about those kind of matters in such circumstances. We just realized we weren't welcome there. That's all. Okay, fine.

But let's build relations in another manner. Let's look for common ground elsewhere. Why we receive such a negative response, you should ask your leaders. I can only guess why. Too big a country with its own opinion and so on. Okay, so you have an answer. Yeah, that sounds right. You know on me in your club, that's fine.

That's fine. I don't want to be in your club anyway. Look, we got to still play in the same park. You know, we got to find a way to get along. I'm totally fine that you know on me in your club anyway. Look, we got to we got to still play on the same in the same park. You know, we got to find a way to get along. So I'm totally fine. You don't want me in your club. You know, I'm not bitter. I find you're bitter. I find it interesting that we can be unhappy with a country that's too big and has its own opinion. I feel like there's only one opinion that really matters. It's a big opinion. It's a big one. Yeah. Yep. So I feel like there is a boldness in Tucker saying you're better. There is. I'm I'm genuinely surprised by how much of a dick he seems to be. I think they genuinely

don't like each other on a personal level. That's kind of the sense that I would take away from this based on Tucker's career. And you know, the things that he seems like he would like Putin quite a bit likes the idea of him. Yeah. But then when Tucker or Putin starts off the interview being like, we gonna be big boys here, serious. He did seem and then spends half an hour rambling about not rambling. I mean, he has a coherent point, but talking about Russian history. Boring history. Yeah. I think Tucker feels, and every time Tucker's tried to redirect the conversation, he's been like, shut up now. I am going to talk about this and then we'll do whatever you want to do. Yeah. I think the Tucker's probably like, I fucking don't

like this guy. I think it feels personal. Yeah, I can't imagine, you know, I can't imagine Tucker being used to being literally impossibly the second fiddle. You know, Tucker's not used to that. He hangs out with Cantor and the guy who says he had sex with Obama. Totally. Power imbalance. Yeah, this is a power imbalance.

That's severe. Again, it's why this is so historical and yet this is insanity. Yes. What is happening in this world? It's severe. Again, it's why this is so historical, and yet this is insanity. Yes. What is happening in this world? The premise of this and the reality of it are entirely disconnected. It's so hard to make the twain meet. The last time we talked about how it seemed like 30 years ago stuff made sense,

and then the past decade has just been absolute madness that you can't explain. I think this might be one of the pinnacles of absolute madness that I can't explain. Like, this is truly insane, and kind of no one cares, and also kind of it's amazing, and also this is the most boring thing I've ever. I don't know what is happening with this world, man!

Yeah, I had to sit with a lot of that while I was preparing this episode. I believe it. It was it was a strange headspace So Putin complains about US support of people who are being invaded by him Sure, they didn't know I repeatedly raised the issue that the United States should not support separatism or terrorism in the North Caucasus But they continue to do it anyway. And political support, information support, financial support, military support came from the United States and its satellites for terrorist groups in the Caucasus. Not you. I once raised this issue with my colleague, also the President

of the United States. He says, it's impossible. Do you have proof? I said yes. I was prepared for this conversation and I gave him that proof. He looked at it and you know what he said? I apologize but that's what happened. I'll quote. He says, Well, I'm gonna kick their ass. We waited and waited for some response. There was no reply. I said to the FSB director, Right to the CIA, what is the result of the conversation with president? He wrote once, twice, and then we got a reply. We have the answer in the archive. The CIA replied, we have been working with the opposition in Russia,

we believe that this is the right thing to do, and we will keep on doing it. Just ridiculous. Well, okay, we realized that it was out of the question. Forces in opposition to you? So you're saying the CIA is trying to overthrow your government. Of course they meant in that particular case the separatists, the terrorists who fought with us in the Caucasus. That's who they called the opposition. Yeah, he's talking about the U.S. supporting groups fighting back against Russia's 2008 invasion of Georgia. Yeah. In reality, Putin was the one who was supporting separatists in the Abkhazian South

Ossetia regions as a pretext to invade just as he has with the Donbas region in the case of the current war with Ukraine. It's almost like there is a pattern, but I'm sure there's some good explanation involving something that happened in the 900s that'll make this all okay. Yeah. Yep. Yep. These people are all are just insane. It doesn't make any sense. It just doesn't. Yep. Wild.

It is. But I imagine, so here's what I imagine. All right. Psychologically, if you're Putin, you have to constantly be justifying an impossible to justify position. There's no reason for you anyone to have as much power as Putin does ever It becomes background noise the need to justify I see so that's why it has to be like a constant like

If I am not proving to myself that this is mine then I could lose it, right? That has to be it. It has to be a constant. I could lose this at any second. So there has to be ironclad historical rationalizations and justifications at every turn I've been wronged. Yup. Yeah.

That may be, the very one may be. Fascinating. So one thing that Putin has been very clear about is that he wants a joint missile defense system in the region. And so he talks about that here a little bit. I propose that the United States, Russia and Europe jointly create a missile defense system that we believe, if created unilaterally, our security, despite the fact that the United States officially said that it was being created against missile threats from Iran. That was the justification for the deployment of the missile defense system.

I suggested working together, Russia, the United States and Europe. They said it was very interesting. They asked me, are you serious? I said, absolutely. I don't remember. It is easy to find out on the internet when I was in the USA at the invitation of a Bush senior. It is even easier to learn from someone I'm going to tell you about. I was told it was very interesting. I said, just imagine, if we could tackle such a global strategic security challenge together. The world will change.

We'll probably have disputes, probably economic and even political ones, but we could drastically change the situation in the world. He says yes, and asks, are you serious? I said, of course, we need to think about it. I said, go ahead, please. Then Secretary of Defense Gates, former director of CIA and Secretary of State Rice came in here in this cabinet, right here at this table, they sat on this table. Me, the former minister, the Russian Defense Minister on that side, they said to me, yes, we have thought about it, we agree.

I said, thank God, great, but with some exceptions. So twice you've described us presidents making decisions and Then being undercut by their agency heads So it sounds like you're describing a system that's not run like a dictatorship in your talent That's right That's right. That's right. What man should have unilateral power? I'm not going to tell you the details because I think it's incorrect. After all, it was confidential conversation. But our proposal was declined. That's a fact.

So, it's been reported pretty widely going back to at least 2000, predating even Bush's time in office, this joint missile defense stuff. Yeah. 2000 predating even Bush's time in office this joint missile defense stuff Yeah It was also something that Putin suggested many other times and the sticking point is generally that Putin wanted to guarantee that the missile defense systems Would never be used against Russia's missiles right this has been a non-starter for obvious as well as practical reasons like a treaty like that Would need to be ratified by the Senate which would be an enormous hurdle that probably would never get cleared But you can see in that clip there's two dynamics really at play. Putin is airing out these grievances and coming off a little bit complaining. Meanwhile, Tucker is trying to do whatever he can to inject his business into the conversation, as he did there, trying to weave in a point that would bring things into this deep state.

President Suck, gotcha. Well, and the deep state is secretly in control of the United States. That this is the fertile territory for Tucker. The system is broken because the seats deep state broke. Yeah, because our elected leader isn't the one who's making the decision, as you're saying unilaterally. Right.

It's these deep state people. Putin acknowledged Tucker's point, but then carried on with his own line of thought, which goes to show that someone who is boring and has actual power will beat someone flashy who has pretend power every time. Every time. And yeah, just it feels like there are these moments where Tucker is trying to be like, all right, now let's play this ball. Yeah, play this ball. Come on. Come on. Something come on. Yeah, because the answer to that the answer to that, of course, is Putin, you're

a lying piece of shit Mm-hmm nobody can trust you ever and nobody can because you've proven yourself to be untrustworthy Even if you're telling the truth you can't be trusted. Hmm like that's the end of our conversation though That's the problem with it. I don't believe a single word you say what even and especially when it's true little old me Yeah, I can't you have proven yourself that way What is the point of this conversation other than to see how interesting your lies are sure? Right, I guess that's that's sort of my my look at it. Yeah my glimpse So we get to the 2004 Ukrainian election and Putin has some thoughts about that

2004 which came to power in 2004 how? The first time he won after president kuchma. They organized the third round which is not provided for in the constitution of Ukraine This is a coup d'etat just imagine someone in the United States wouldn't like the outcome in 2014 in the United States wouldn't like the outcome. In 2014? No. Before that? No, this was before that. After President Kuchma, Viktor Yanukovych won the elections. However, his opponents did not recognize that victory.

The U.S. supported the opposition and the third round was scheduled. What is this? This is a coup. The U.S. supported it and the winner of the third round came to power. Imagine if in the U.S. something was not to someone's liking and the third round of election, which the U.S. Constitution does not provide for, was organized. Nonetheless, it was done in Ukraine. Okay. So Leonid Kuchma had been president of Ukraine from 1994 to 2005, and he was a leader that was oriented towards Russia generally, was a friendly leader.

There was an election to name a successor in 2004 that came down to Viktor Yanukovych and Viktor Yushenko, which Yushenko won. That was bad for Putin since Yushenko was aligned towards NATO and being a part of Europe, as opposed to being closer with Russia. Putin doesn't believe that Ukraine is a real country, but that's fine as long as the leader of the country is not a problem for him and Yushchenko was a potential problem. It's worth noting that when he was running for president someone poisoned Yushchenko with dioxin. In what many fully understand to be an assassination attempt. But as we learned on our last episode, Putin has said that they do not have a habit of such things.

They don't do it! Putin is saying that there was an unheard of third round of voting that took place in 2004, and he's kind of right. What happened is that there was a normal first round where someone would need to get over 50% of the vote to win. Did not. No one got that much, they went to a runoff,

which is the second round, and that was just between Yushenko and Yanukovych. The second round of voting was plagued by what you might call irregularities. For instance, in the Donetsk Oblots, where Yannikovic is from, they reported like a 98% turnout, which is insane and a massive jump from the first round. And 97% voted for him too. No, wild. Further, poll watchers from Yashenko's side were expelled

from many polling stations on the eastern side of the country, and the organization for security and cooperation in Europe said that there were more violations of election law than they could list off in the time that they had in the press conference. The eastern side of Ukraine. Geographically, that seems closer to Russia. Yeah. Public outcry led to a challenge of the results of the runoff that got to the Ukrainian Supreme Court who threw out the results in order to new runoff, which you shenko would go on to win. Yeah. So it is true that a third round of voting did happen, but it was done according to Ukrainian law and because there were massive

problems with the runoff election. Yeah. But it's fun to see how Putin is essentially poking at Tucker here with the can you imagine if someone didn't believe the results of the election in the U S Tucker is probably probably had a rough time figuring out if he should agree or disagree with that. Like, how do I play this ball? It might be in Fox with Rainier. Yeah. Yeah. The interesting thing here is that Putin would have had no problem if Yanukovych had won that election and in fact congratulated him on the win before it was overturned because he knew that Yanukovych had won that election. And in fact, congratulated him on the win before it was overturned, because he knew that Yanukovych

would be friendly to Russian interests. Ukraine isn't a country to Putin, so he can't possibly care about the integrity of the voting system. He just cares that whoever is leading the non-country is beholden to him and not the West. That is so interesting, because I think we're gonna have

an almost identical situation here as a not identical. I mean a similar situation wherein essentially the Supreme Court will come down to decide the election, right? Like in the situation that the Supreme Court chose, the Supreme Court had to say that the results of the election are thrown out because it's bullshit, right? Now, here's what I find fascinating about that comparatively is that if you hear the arguments at the Supreme Court for keeping Trump on the ballot, the Supreme Court justices are all like,

hey, listen, if we stop this, you don't know what's gonna happen. Anybody could get fucking thrown off the ballot. You know what I'm saying? If you fuck with me, you know, like that kind of thing. And it is, in essence, if Ukraine was like, well, we would throw out the results of these elections, but we're worried people will be mad. And then throw out the results of that election next time, you know? So we'll not do our job. Then in that essence, then Yanukov...

Then yeah, it would have been him. It would have been Russia's Ukraine. Sure. And we're about to have Russia's United States. Well, that's a pessimistic view. Interesting. We'll see how the Supreme Court decides. We will see. So there is this, this coup that happened in 2004 in Kiev. Yeah. And it's weird because if you're listening to this interview as it goes on, you know, Yanukovych gets thrown out after he wins the other election. Right. You get thrown out in 2014. Right. So 2004 and 2014 are both times that Yanukovych got wronged. Yes. And there is a lack of definition between like a coup in 2004 and a coup in 2014 and it's it's hard to keep track of what is being argued. Which coup is?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think that this one is about 2004 and then there's a little bit of sass. As the Americans requested Yanukovych did use neither the armed forces nor the police yet the armed opposition committed a coup in Kiev. What is that supposed to mean? Who do you think you are? I wanted to ask the US leadership. With the backing of whom? With the backing of CIA, of course.

The organization you wanted to join back in the day oh shit you should thank God they didn't let you in oh fuck is this serious organization I understand my former vis-a-vis in the sense that I served in the first main directorate so it unions intelligence service they have always been our opponents. A job is a job. Hey man, can you stop being such a dick? I'm gonna say this. I'm gonna say this.

I know who should have done this interview. Nick Cannon because Putin is wilding out right now. Yeah, that's that's uh, I mean in the terms of like the world that this is taking place in, that is severely dishy. I am shocked by how whiny and petty and bullshitty this is considering the significant amount of power on display here. Yeah, two men. And the it's not even necessarily the power that's on display. Yeah's the power that's implied by both of them. The power of the power that's owned by both of them. Yeah. Yeah. Is is subsumed into these

two people are whiny and pathetic. It's it does not come off well for either of them. I think through most of it. I hate. I hate hate hate that it is 100% true. Every asshole in this country has a million times the courage of every elected leader on this fucking planet. And especially the ones who don't get elected. How do you quantify courage? Just getting through the day without whining like a loser to tuck her fucking Carlson.

Well, most of us don't have the opportunity. That's true. So we get to the actual war business. Right. And would you be surprised to learn that Putin's really the one trying to stop the war? I am not surprised to learn that. Yeah. It was they who started the war in 2014. Our goal is to stop this war. And we did not start this war in 2022. This is an attempt to stop it. Do you think you've stopped it now? I mean, have you achieved your aims?

No, we haven't achieved our aims yet because one of them is the notification. This means the prohibition of all kinds of neo-Nazi movements. Tell me more about that. This is one of the problems that we discussed during the negotiation process, which ended in Istanbul early this year. And it was not our initiative, because we were told by the Europeans in particular that it was necessary to create conditions for the final signing of the documents. My counterparts in France and Germany said, how can you imagine them signing a treaty

with a gun to their heads? The troops should be pulled back from Kiev. I said, all right, we withdrew the troops from Kiev. As soon as we pulled back our troops from Kiev, our Ukrainian negotiators immediately threw all our agreements reached in Istabaul into the bin and got prepared for a long-standing armed confrontation with the help of the United States and its satellites in Europe. That is how the situation has developed. So, but he seems to be conveniently leaving off the entire period of the start of the

invasion to the Istanbul negotiations. What about it? Seems like he's giving a thorough... That happened then, but it didn't happen then, because I'm happened then. But it didn't happen then because I'm telling you about how it didn't happen then now. Right. So this is in full negotiations took place on March 29 and 30 2022. This is over a month into the war and maybe pulling out of Kiev was part of creating conditions where there could be a negotiation or it might have been because they couldn't hold Kiev and Ukraine was putting up counter offenses. It's not like they had

a comfortable control of Kiev and graciously moved out. They were repelled. But here we kind of have the difficulty of Tucker doing this interview. Putin has presented himself as someone whose actions are about trying to end this war and Tucker is said as much in his show, maybe not literally those exact words, but that's the messaging. If anybody is at fault to continue driving this war on Ukraine, the United States, the deep state. Yeah. However, in the course of this interview so far, Putin has said that Ukraine isn't a real country and that he should be able to seize it as part of his historical version of Russia. That motivation runs counter to how Tucker has presented this in the past. And it creates a little bit of tension that is unresolved.

Yeah. This is an optics problem for Tucker that he's been trying to rectify by attempting to steer things towards red meat type talking points for his audience and Putin's just not playing ball. Um... Because he doesn't have to. No. Amazing. But there's such a payoff for him propagandistically if you were to. Yeah. But I think that he just didn't think that that's what this interview was.

He just did. I mean, it makes you wonder because it's in the same in the same way. You know, you can't have this much power. You become an idiot. You become a moron. You don't get told the truth by anybody. So what you actually believe is not reality, regardless of what it is, you know, even if you are awesome at understanding reality, you simply cannot. So what he believes is actually happening is incomprehensible. Like I can't know ever what he truly,

not even truly, I mean just what he thinks is going on from a day to day, it's not reflective of reality. But here we have in this in this instance at least. Yeah, you have that there was a coup in 2004 and 2014. Sure. And this war started in 2014 because they threw out Yanukovych. And then there was a not Russia friendly power in place. Right. And that starts the war because Ukraine's not a country anyway. Ukraine's fault for not having not friendly Russian leaders that they wanted.

They exist at the sort of pleasure of Putin. Yep. And if they have an unfriendly leader, well then that's... They don't exist at the displeasure of Putin. Exactly. Yeah. So that's kind of where we're at. Yep. But we got into the Donatsification. That came up a little bit. Right. Right. Right. So that's an interesting concept that gets explored a little bit Well, I just want Zelensky to come we sign things together

He wears a pair of underpants that I give him and then he goes home What does everybody get worried about this so Tucker Tucker actually does ask like what is denazification right? What is part of my nurse what is denazification? What would that mean? Yeah, what do you what do you have a question for them? That's a very important question But what is part of my interest? What is denazification? What would that mean? That is what I want to talk about right now. It is a very important issue. Denazification. After gaining independence, Ukraine began to search as some Western analysts say its identity. And it came up with nothing better than to build this identity upon some false heroes who collaborated with Hitler. I have already said that in the early 19th century, when the theorists of independence

and sovereignty of Ukraine appeared, they assumed that an independent Ukraine should have very good relations with Russia. But due to the historical development, those territories were part of the Polish, Lithuanian Commonwealth. Poland, where Ukrainians were persecuted and treated quite brutally as well as were subject to cruel behavior. There were also attempts to destroy their identity. All this remained in the memory of the people.

When World War II broke out, part of this extremely nationalist elite collaborated with Hitler, believing that he would bring them freedom. The German troops, even the SS troops, made Hitler's collaborators do the dirtiest work of exterminating the Polish and Jewish population, hence this brutal massacre of the Polish and Jewish population as well as the Russian population too. This was led by the persons who are well known, Bander Shukhevich. It was those people who were made national heroes. That is the problem. And we are constantly told that nationalism and neo-nazism exist in other countries as well. Yes, they are seedlings, but we approve them. And other countries fight against them. But Ukraine is not the case. These people have been made into national heroes in Ukraine. Monuments to those people have been erected. They are displayed

on flags. Their names are shouted by crowds that walk with torches as it was in Nazi Germany. So I'm struck by this explanation of denazification and the thing that it brings to mind is like the attempt to take down statues of Confederate generals in the United States. I was thinking the exact same thing. It seems to me that the idea of some of your folk heroes being Nazi collaborators is not great. And yeah, maybe you should reassess that and take down some of those statues. But is that a cause for war?

How would anyone in Tucker or Alex's audience respond to Canada invading us because we won't get rid of Confederate flags on buildings or and that some people celebrate slave owners as folk here. Oh, man They like that just wait until Canada finds out how many schools are named after Woodrow Wilson. Oh, you have no idea Honestly, I would think that anyone on the far right hearing Putin's explanation of denazification I think they would think it sounds like woke bullshit Leaving aside that Putin's version of this is not accurate based on the political inclinations of the American far right Putin supporting crowd They should really oppose this denazification and very least they should reject it as a pretext for justifying a war

Also if we're on the subject of looking up to problematic people, Putin was just trotting out a letter from Bogdan Helmensky earlier as evidence for the historical desire by people in modern-day Russia to be ruled by Orthodox and Russian leaders, not by the Polish power in the time. And if you recall, that dude killed tens of thousands of Jewish people in his uprising. This presents a problem, because Helmensky wasn't around during WW2 times but was a vicious anti-Semite who is considered by parts of Ukraine to be a folk hero for his role in the uprising that would throw off Polish rule.

But Putin is also citing him as an important part of folk history because the ultimate end of that uprising was entering Ukraine into Russian rule. So it's fine there. Putin is upset about people like Bandera and Tchaikovych being considered national heroes despite their involvement with the Nazis in World War II, but he has no problem with Homensky because this isn't actually about denazification. It's about opposition to actual sovereignty for Ukraine and the Nazi stuff is just a really good excuse.

And I'm not going to pretend there isn't a lot of history in Ukraine that's fucking messy. And many national heroes have some bad baggage. It doesn't do any good to ignore those historical issues, but at the same time, this is not a cause for war. Yeah. This is absurd. I mean, I- I- the- Every historical issue is, uh, held by every country. Mm-hmm.

I don't know many that are like, Hey, guess what? We're free of baggage, guys. We did it. Right. You know? Yeah. So the idea of here's your problem. We need to take care of that for you is insane until you take care of your own shit. I mean, I don't know if you've ever met this guy named Jesus. He had things about Planks. He was like, get that shit out of your up. But I mean, like the idea of Russia being like, Hey, man, Ukraine's history is problematic for us. So we're not going to deal with them and we're going to head over there. It just seems really strange to like,

I think obviously that there should you know it would be good to reconsider heroes of folk history with problematic past there's a reason there are no heroes to the squad right deal with them as they are not as some sort of fantasy version you know warts and all that kind of thing but I hear this and try and look at it through the prism of the right-wing audience that you know this would be meant to get to yeah and I feel like they would be like fuck this guy yeah absolutely I mean imagine somebody being like hey Thomas Jefferson was a rapist you know just he was that's what he did he raped people so so then

people wouldn't be like oh we should take statues down or not name stuff after these people or not quote shit like that. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. So if you are going to do it, you have to understand that if you did it to one of their guys, they wouldn't care, you know, or they'd be pissed off at you. Probably. So Putin goes on about this denazification and uh... talker asks what we know you gotta give it up when there's something to give it up to yes it's a pretty good question here but i think you was expecting a different response right i say that the u kranians are part of the one russian people they say no we are a separate

people okay if they consider themselves a separate people, they have the right to do so. But not on the basis of Nazism, the Nazi ideology. Would you be satisfied with the territory that you have now? I will finish answering the question. Just ask the question about Neo- neonazism and denazification. That's a pretty good question from Tucker there, because it does get to the heart of

this fake explanation for the invasion. If this is truly about denazification, then you can achieve that without taking any territory, so it should stand to reason that Putin should be perfectly satisfied with the existing borders. It's unsurprising that there's not an answer to that question. And I'm guessing that Tucker thought there would be an immediate yes of course. I mean, of course I don't want to take more territory. Which is, which is, it makes sense for Tucker because this is the first time where he's like, well, at the very least he's not going to be honest with me about this.

Right? Like that is the first thing. Of course I can ask this question, knowing that he will give me the lie. Instead, the answer is, I'm talking jerk. Go fuck yourself. Yeah, absolutely. It's amazing. Yeah. So, in terms of the

the evidence presented of this very, very serious top level, everywhere, Nazi problem, is that guy who got a standing ovation in Canada. The president of Ukraine visited Canada. The story is well known, but being silenced in the western countries. The Canadian parliament introduced a man who, as the speaker of the parliament said, fought

against the Russians during the World War II. Well, who fought against the Russians during the WW2? Hitler and his accomplices. It turned out that this man served in the SS troops. He personally killed Russian's Poles and Jews. The SS troops consisted of Ukrainian nationalists who did this dirty work. The president of Ukraine stood up with the entire parliament of Canada and applauded this man.

How can this be imagined? The president of Ukraine himself, by the way, is a Jew by nationality. Really, my question is what do you do about it? I mean, Hitler's been dead for 80 years, Nazi Germany no longer exists. Or... And so, true. And so, I think what you're saying is you want to extinguish or at least control Ukrainian nationalism, but how?

How do you do that? By extinguishing or controlling Ukraine. It's very simple. Listen to me. Your question is very subtle. And I can tell you what I think. Do not take offense. Go fuck yourself. Of course.

This question appears to be subtle. It is quite pesky. You say Hitler has been dead for so many years, 80 years. But his example lives on. People who exterminate the Jews, Russians and Poles are alive. And the president, the current president of today's Ukraine, applauds him in the Canadian Parliament. Gives a standing ovation.

Can we say that we have completely uprooted this ideology if what we see is happening today? That is what the Nazification is in our understanding. We have to get rid of those people who maintain this concept and support this practice and try to preserve it. So this is referring to the incident where a 98 year old man named Yaroslav Honka was invited to the Canadian parliament when Zelensky was visiting. Right, we recall. Yes, he was given a round of applause and a standing ovation only for it to later come out that he fought for the Nazis in World War II. Right. All of this was due to irresponsibility by the House

of Commons speaker Anthony Rota whose office has claimed that Honka's son contacted them and asked if he could attend the speech. Right. Rota accepted the request and then took it upon himself to single Hunkah out for a round of applause to the surprise of Justin Trudeau, Zelensky, and Hunkah's own family. They didn't know that was going to happen. After the details of Hunkah's war history were reported, Rota resigned from office and everybody issued embarrassed apologies.

Good call, yeah. This was not a matter of Ukraine celebrating Nazis. As much as it was an instance of the Speaker of the House of Commons making a grave error, which played directly into the propaganda that Putin's regime has used to justify their invasion. Yeah. What you see here is pretty interesting though, because Tucker has a decent question that he's asking, which is going nowhere. He's asking, in essence, what does denazification entail? What are the steps to doing this? Instead of getting an answer, you see Putin

ignore the question and continue down his path or generally describe what he sees as the problem with no mention of what the solution is. Yeah. Because the solution is controlled. Yeah, I mean, I'm taking over Ukraine. I don't know how to be more clear without telling you the truth. Yeah, right? The general sense that you get from this interview is two men both not getting what they want. All of the pieces are right here to be a messaging and narrative bonanza, but it's just not coming together right for either of them. Putin's too stubborn and boring for Tucker to use correctly, and Putin is entirely off

in terms of what the right messaging should be for an interview like this. It's not adversarial enough to pretend to be real journalism, but on the same page, it's not really potent propaganda either. It's weird. It is. It is like maybe there's just the central, the central reality for Putin is

he is not used to talking to people who don't inherently understand that he can kill them. Right? Maybe. Who don't, you know, he's used to talking to people who don't inherently understand that he can kill them. Right? Maybe. Who don't, you know, he's used to talking to world leaders, but that's different. You know, you look at them as equals. Right. This is somebody who's-

Tuckers out of his station. This is somebody who's not an equal who believes that Putin can't kill him, which is unusual for Putin. Probably. I imagine that that's a very difficult lane to change into once you're so used to people believing that you can kill them at all the time sure you know sure Yeah, and so Tucker tries to get specific again. He tries to like what does this entail? What is denotification in practice? Jesus, and I don't think we get an answer. Yeah, my question is no more specific

It was of course not a defense of get an answer. Yeah. My question is a little more specific. It was of course not a defense of Nazis, Neo or otherwise. It was a practical question. You don't control the entire country. You don't control Kevin. You don't seem like you want to. So how do you eliminate a culture or an ideology or feelings or a view of history in a country that you don't control. What do you do about that? You know, as strange as it may seem to you during the negotiations at Istanbul, we did agree that we have it all in writing. Neo-Nazism would not be cultivated in Ukraine, including that it would be prohibited at the legislative level. Mr. Carson, we agreed on that.

This it turns out can be done during the negotiation process. And there's nothing humiliating for Ukraine as a modern civilized state. Is any state allowed to promote Nazism? It is not, is it? That is it. Well, talk about it. We are. Huh.

Is there anything that would allow a like disallow a Nazi from running for office in the United States? No. I don't know if there is. Well, I mean, I don't know. Maybe if you were like a literal member of the Nazi party or something, that might be a party that's banned. I well, that's a question that I wondered a long time ago,

which is, you know, we negotiated peace with Germany. Did we ever negotiate peace with Nazis? You know what I mean? Like, are we still at war with Nazis and not Germany? Like, can I still go kill Hitler? Is it Hitler's obviously still alive in Argentina? Can I go kill him? Maybe not dead Yeah, I know I don't know it's it's interesting I mean obviously if your goal is just for them to ban

Nazis and the legislature or whatever, right? Cool. Well, I mean, first off, obviously, cannot you cannot become president if you are not from or born in the United States. So that's first off. But I don't know how you would fight for the Nazis. Otherwise. Well, I mean, I mean, like from Putin's perspective, if that's if that's his goal, yeah, he's not going about it. Well, no, no, this doesn't.

Yeah. See, that's kind of that's just one of the reasons that this is so strange is that there are only two conversations that can truly be had between them, which is we're lying on the same page or we're telling the truth on the same page. They can't be both lying and telling the truth on separate pages. Well, that's insane. But that's what it is. That's why we're dealing with insanity. Yeah, there's there's different genres of lies. And I pronounce that fancy. I enjoy it. On purpose. So Tucker asks if there's going to be peace talks. And what are we doing? Tucker's trying to negotiate peace weird

Will there be talks and why haven't there been talks about? Resolving the conflict in Ukraine peace talks They have been. They reached a very high stage of coordination of positions in a complex process. But still they were almost finalized. But after we withdrew our troops from Kiev, as I have already said, the other side threw away all these agreements and obeyed the instructions of Western countries European countries and the United States to fight Russia to the bitter end sounds true Moreover, trust where they do and Europe rain has legislated a ban on negotiating with Russia He signed the decree forbidding everyone to negotiate with Russia But how are we going to negotiate if he forbade himself and everyone to do this?

So that Istanbul agreement wasn't finalized, so there's no going back on it that was done by Ukraine. They didn't enter into that agreement, in some part because Western countries asserted that they had their support, but equally because they had no faith that Russia would adhere to the terms, and because it would have been impossible for them to actually agree to it. Yeah. Zelensky banned Ukrainian citizens from having negotiations, but not with Russia. Specifically with Russia while Putin is in charge. Yeah.

There's no ban that Zelensky can make that would ban other countries from engaging in negotiations and there's no reason that random citizens should be trying to negotiate with Putin. It's an absurd complaint for Putin to have here, honestly Yeah, it's very bizarre. Yeah, I mean It is it is so much Like I I don't know how to understand people Who just have no check on themselves? Do you know what I mean? Like like and it's the same thing with Alex It's the same thing where it's like, if you have no check on yourself for a long enough period of time, you can't keep it together long enough to do

something that makes it, you know, like, again, Putin and Tucker together right now should be working on creating the next Trump dictatorship. So then Russia, China and the United States are all the three largest powers all of which have a alliance based upon a fascist false Democracy kind of idea right that's the idea that gives Russia a freedom China freedom and then the United States has to Deal with Trump, you know we have to suck it up That he's doing this with Tucker is insane to me. I agree with you, and I think that would be of the agendas that both Tucker and Putin have

and have illustrated. I think the reason why that expectation that you have is not being in any way really fulfilled is that Tucker is trying to weave towards those narratives. You think? He is. Yeah. With the deep state stuff and some of these things are attempts to weave into that.

And then on Putin's side, he doesn't think that that's what this interview is. Yeah. You know, he's there doing an interview about Ukraine generally, and he's basically doing a history lesson about why he's right to take Ukraine because it's not a country. And then complaining about everybody who's done him wrong in all these talks and this weak denotification excuse. So like he doesn't.

That is Alex. If he were there in like the capacity of like, let's spit some some shit then maybe it would go differently Yeah, maybe it would it is it is so much man Belignant narcissists just have this thing, you know like listening to Putin go on and on about his legal cases Sure, you know yeah, I had these people that died to the Clintons Hillary is in together with them the deep state to get me under the Sandy Hook thing. You know, it's like, this is the same shit. It's similar. Yeah. So he said that Zalinsky, his band negotiation and Tucker follows up with like, well, you would be negotiating with the United States. I mean, it wouldn't

matter. That would be the. Well, but you wouldn't be speaking to the Ukrainian president. You'd be speaking to the American president. When was the last time you spoke to Joe Biden? I cannot remember when I talked to him. I do not remember. We can look it up. You don't remember? No. Why? Do I have to remember everything?

I have my own things to do. We have domestic political affairs. Well, he's funding the war that you're fighting, so I would think that would be memorable. Damn! Well, yes, he funds, but I talked to him before the Special Military Operation, of course. And I said to him then, by the way, I will not go into details, I never do. But I said to him then, I believe that you are making a huge mistake of historic proportions By supporting everything that is happening there in Ukraine by pushing Russia away

I told him told him repeatedly by the way. I think that would be correct if I stop here. What did he say? Ask him, please. Okay. All right. You know, that has that general character of like the Alex stories too. Yeah. Like the, the like, I'll leave it at that. Yeah, I gave him everything that they needed to know. I told him everything.

I'm the one who's really trying to be, or I'm trying to be nice to everyone. I mean more along the lines of like relaying secretive information and then I'll stop it. I'll stop right there Yeah, you've told half the story. Yeah, if I get acting like you're being some kind of having decorum. Yeah It's ridiculous. I'm gonna stop there because it's better for you to imagine the details than it is for me to tell you the incredibly boring and uninteresting ones exactly exactly yeah, so Tucker asks The question of like, Hey man, bro, this looks like it could get bad. Like this whole thing, it looks like it could spill into World War

three. I think I think that is one of the interesting things about that exchange is I think Tucker legitimately forgot for a second that Putin has met far more than one president. Yeah, you know, and they don't mean anything to him They're meeting much. Yeah, the presidents are meaningless to him because they're going to be gone and he's going to be there Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's a permanence. Yeah So yeah, this could get into World War three though, bro. Sure from the outside. It seems like this could Devolve or evolve into something that brings the entire world into conflict and could initiate some nuclear launch.

And so why don't you just call Biden and say, let's work this out? Are you stupid? What's there to work out? It's very simple. So we did say that. We have contacts through various agencies. I will tell you what we are saying on this matter and what we are conveying to the US leadership.

If you really want to stop fighting, you need to stop supplying weapons. It will be over within a few weeks. That's it. And then we can agree on some terms. Before you do that, stop. What's easier? Why would I call him? Yeah, it's pretty clear. I mean, I think that's, I think anyone who's paid any attention knows this is pretty much his position. Yeah, I mean, we will win and then we'll talk. I will say, I will say that one of the ways to keep from getting slammed into your

locker is to accept the swirly. You know, just just take it and then take it for the rest of your life forever. And I won't throw you in the locker. Right. Yeah. Right. Yep. Stop fighting back and then this will be over. Well, it won't ever be over. Well, it will. Well, I mean, one part of it will be. The rest of it will never be. Probably not. No, but it's all just bullshit. It's all fake bullshit. This idea that Russia is going to take any other country or attack anybody else.

I love it. Do you think NATO was worried about this becoming a global war or a nuclear conflict? At least that's what they're talking about, and they're trying to intimidate their own population with an imaginary Russian threat. This is an obvious fact. And thinking people, not Philistines, but thinking people, analysts, those who are engaged in real politics just smart people understand perfectly well that this is a fake They're trying to fuel the Russian threat the threat. I think you're referring to is a Russian invasion of Poland Latvia expansionist behavior is can you imagine a scenario where you sent Russian troops to Poland? where you sent Russian troops to Poland? Only in one case, if Poland attacks Russia. Why?

Because we have no interest in Poland, Latvia or anywhere else. Why would we do that? We simply don't have any interest. It's just threat mongering. Well the argument I know you know this is that while he invaded Ukraine, he has territorial aims across the continent, and you're saying unequivocally you don't. It is absolutely out of the question. You just don't have to be any kind of analyst.

It goes against common sense to get involved in some kind of a global war. Dude? No, that's true. I mean, it is bad news to get involved in a global war. I can't tell you how many political leaders I know who have gotten involved in a fucking global war. So while it is true that it may be unlikely that Putin would invade Poland for very clear logistical reasons, there's absolutely zero reason to take what Putin

or his administration say at face value. On January 10th, 2022, his deputy foreign minister, Sergei Rykabov, nope, Rykabov, said, quote, there are no plans or intentions to attack Ukraine. There is no reason to fear some kind of escalatory scenario. Then Russia invaded Ukraine a little over a month later. Sure there is that even closer to the invasion. Putin said himself quote the facts are that

Americans are artificially whipping up hysteria around an alleged Russian plot for the invasion in 2014 just before invading an annexing Crimea, Putin explicitly said he was not going to annex Crimea and quote, we will not go to war with the Ukrainian people. There seems to be a bit of a habit of lying, particularly around invasion stuff that creates a credibility gap for Putin on this issue. I'm going to tell you, I think most invasions during my lifetime have been based on lies. And people saying they're not about to do it. Totally. Yeah.

And not for nothing. In 2014, it was reported that former Ukrainian president Petro Poroshenko had a private conversation with Putin where he threatened to invade Poland, Romania, Estonia, Lithuania, and Latvia. Whether that indicated any actual ambition to do that or if it was just some good old fashioned dictator shit talk, you can decide for yourself. But this, I take this with a heavy grain of salt. I mean, there's a part of me that says, this has nothing to do with anything.

Doesn't particularly want Ukraine at all. And that realistically every foreign war is about domestic politics. If that makes sense, do you know what I mean? Like I hear the word. Something about this means, you know, in the 80s, Russia wasted a trillions of dollars on Afghanistan.

Then America did. Then Russia did. Then America did again. And now I think we're doing the same thing in Ukraine. I don't think this has anything to do with resolving conflicts at all. I really think rich leaders of countries just fucking have to do this shit to justify to themselves why they exist. I Maybe there's a there's a kernel of that, but then there's also strategic You know just sort of more realistic versions or considerations on the ground that maybe

This territory being on Friendly to you or even hostile to you, severely impacts you. So maybe it's not so much a matter of, I need to control this, or this doesn't need to be mine, but it needs to be mine. Right. You know? Right.

Yeah, I don't know. So Tucker has another question about Chuck Schumer. Sure. Schumer said that maybe, maybe troops like need to get sent to train. Love it. Uh, but not really. That's not what we want.

Wow. One of our senior United States senators from the state of New York, Chuck Schumer said yesterday, I believe that we have to continue to fund the Ukrainian effort or U.S. soldiers, citizens could wind up fighting there. How do you assess that? This is a provocation, an achieve provocation at that. I do not understand why American soldiers should fight in Ukraine. There are mercenaries from the United States there. The bigger number of mercenaries comes from Poland, with mercenaries from the United States

in second place and mercenaries from Georgia in third place. Well, if somebody has the desire to send regular troops, that would certainly bring humanity to the brink of very serious global conflict. This is obvious. So this Chuck Schumer thing is exactly like what Tucker was reporting about Lloyd Austin previously. If you let Putin win in Ukraine, eventually NATO countries will be threatened and will be forced to send troops Yeah, so I think it's a little bit of a mischaracterization. Yeah, I mean essentially the idea is

Although I mean it is an admission that where we are is Circumstantial based on time. Mm-hmm., like, okay, so here's the good news. We're not at war with Russia. Bad news is if they win, we're at war with Russia. You know, so it is a matter of- I was saying, we could be. Well. You know, there is a scenario where

NATO countries aren't encroached. Sure, sure. But I mean, that's kind of that's kind of the question, right? In order to make sure that we don't all get dragged into a NATO versus NATO versus Russia war, NATO has to win the war in Ukraine with Russia. Mm hmm. You know, like it makes no sense. It's very, it's very stupid. Sure. But it is what war is all stupid. War is all stupid. Yeah. And what is it good for? Absolutely nothing say it again. I will okay someday so I

You know in response to this this notion of sending troops Putin has a little bit of a come on guys. Yeah Don't you have anything better to do? You have issues on the border issues with migration issues now. We're doing it. Yeah, that's what you're supposed to be here for come on man dollars America sucks do so you should fight in your praying Wouldn't it be better to negotiate with Russia make an agreement already Understanding the situation that is developing today Realizing that Russia will fight for its interest to

the end, and realizing this actually returned to common sense, start respecting our country and its interests, and look for certain solutions. It seems to me that this is much smarter and more rational. Come on guys, you got your own problems. I truly believe I truly believe this is a good idea. And it is if any nation declares war, the first person who should die should be the president or the king or whatever. Just auto automatic death. If you want to declare war, boy, it better be worth killing yourself. The price of admission. The ticket. Absolutely, no, and it's just 100%. If it really is worth doing, then it's worth dying for,

and you're the first person to go. Well, I mean, you are the same person who suggested that presidents should have to be killed after their terms. I am, I think world leaders have too much power, and there's almost no way to check it. That's what we're living through, is unchecked power from world leaders.

The Supreme Court's a joke, Congress is a joke. The president is a thousand years old. It is ridiculous to have these people have this much power. There is an overpoweredness. Yeah, so it is very much like if you're going to have checks on this type of power, it has to be absolute and it has to have nothing to do with votes. It has to be like complete machine style.

Hey, no, I agree with you. We should fight this war. I think you are right. That is true. You still have to die. It doesn't matter if you're right or wrong. You still have to die because it's worth dying for. I see the beauty of the point that you're making in a literary sense. Sure. But I think in terms of the real world, I don't know how much that works. I mean, I think it would cut down on a lot of war. I think it would also probably preclude a lot of people from taking action when maybe they need to. I would be interested to see if that's the case.

I don't know if we'd ever know. I think, I think for effect, we never will. Yeah, probably not. So Putin has, you know, given the come on guys. Why? And then Tucker takes, takes the opportunity to ask a pretty direct question that he's hoping will fuel some of his conspiracy narratives Who blew up Nord Stream?

You for sure I was busy that day named it do you have I did not pull up I did not pull up your stream. Thank you though. You personally may have an alibi, but the CIA has no such alibi. Did you have evidence that NATO or the CIA did it? Well... You know, I won't get into details, but people always say in such cases, look for someone

who is interested. But in this case, we should not only look for someone who is interested, but also for someone who has capabilities. Because there may be many people interested, but not all of them are capable of sinking to the bottom of the Baltic Sea and carrying out this explosion. So let's know then. I'm interested, I like that. I like that answer because that answer is

whoever I decided it. Key bono. Could be you. Today it'll be you. Today it was you. Today it was Tucker. And then tomorrow it will be somebody else depending on whether I need it to be them.

Yeah, that to me doesn't inspire confidence in the accusation. You know, like this is, this is like, do you have evidence of this? Who would like to do it? This is why you only talk to people. If you are a person who wants to lie constantly and never tell the truth and be full of bullshit,

you really should run your own country and only talk to people who are afraid you're gonna kill them. It makes things easier. Yeah, man. So Tucker asks a follow-up to this, which again, somewhat to his credit, but I think that he wants different answers than he's getting. I am, I am shocked by this because I do think that it's so personal and petty on the part of Tucker. I think some of it, some of it is motivated from that place. Yeah. But he asks, if you have evidence, why not provide it? Put it out. on the part of Tucker. I think some of it is motivated from that place. Yeah. But he asks, if you have evidence, why not provide it?

Put it out. But I'm confused. I mean, that's the biggest act of industrial terrorism ever. And it's the largest emission of CO2 in history. OK, so if you had evidence and presumably given your security services, rental services, you would that NATO, the US CIA, the West, did this, why wouldn't you present

it and win a propaganda victory? In the war of propaganda, it is very difficult to defeat the United States because the United States controls all the world's media and many European media. The ultimate beneficiary of the biggest European media are American financial institutions. Don't you know that? So it is possible to get involved in this work, but it is cost prohibitive, so to speak. We can simply shine the spotlight on our sources of information and we will not achieve results. It's never been clearer to me than that exact moment that Putin has no evidence that the

CIA or US or NATO was involved in blowing up the Nord Stream pipeline. That is the most, like that's not even a great, you could just say yes. Just say yes! I'm not saying it's impossible that any of those entities were involved in blowing it up, but just answer screams, I have no evidence, but I'll be damned if I'm ever gonna say that. Yeah, why would I ever say that? It's too expensive to do propaganda war. I can't imagine why you wouldn't just...

Yeah, show it to me. Here it is, Tucker. From the archives. Yeah, it doesn't matter if it's real or not. You've got Russian people deepfake shit on the regular. You trotted out this letter earlier. You clearly have some preparation of sources. Yeah. So that's a no on the. Yeah. That's all I'm taking it. Anyway, I will take it that way as well. So Tucker wants to know what are the

teams in the world? And here I think that, you know, he's trying to get his you and me the United States. You know, we got Trump, you know, he's trying to get his. You and me, the United States. Right. You know, we got Trump, you making this power alliance with Ben Bolsenares, still in power, Orban. You know, we got these people. Right. And then the deep state demon folk or whatever. That's what he's hoping will come out of this.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But Putin doesn't even bite. Oh boy. If we're now in multipolar world, obviously we are. Can you describe the blocks of alliances? Who is in each side? Do you think? Listen, you have said that the world is breaking into two hemispheres.

A human brain is divided into two hemispheres. One is responsible for one type of activities, the other one is more about creativity and so on. But it is still one and the same head. The world should be a single whole. Security should be shared rather than a meant for the Golden Billion. That is the only scenario where the world could be stable, sustainable and predictable. Until then, while the head is split in two parts, it is an illness, a serious adverse condition. It is a period of severe disease that the world is going through now.

So what are the teams? Creativity. Right. And then chopping your head in half sure logic and creativity right I'm I find this just a non-answer it's just I feel like there's a lot of that there's a there's a lot of non-answers in this I'm gonna I'm gonna say that I think we're gonna have to go back to the pervasiveness of movies In a like coloring real life

Mm-hmm because I do also think Tucker is like listen James Bond villains are supposed to be cool and you are not cool Your ship. This is trash So there's no an answer thing just keeps recurring like here is here's another instance You're describing two different systems You say the leader acts in the interest of the voters, but you also say these decisions are not made by the leader They're made by the ruling classes You've run this country for so long known all these American presidents. What are those power centers in the United States? Do you think?

Like who actually makes the decisions? Say the deep-sake say CIA say something like that in the United States, do you think? Like who actually makes the decisions? Say the deep say, say CIA, say something like that. I don't know. God damn it! It's a complex country, conservative on one hand, rapidly changing on the other. It's not easy for us to sort it all out.

Who knows? I feel like Tucker really wanted an answer there that works for him. You see these setups of these questions like Putin. He wanted Putin to say, I know damn well that the NATO in the U. S blew up the pipeline. Whether or not he presents that evidence or not, he wants, he wants that to be firmly stated. When you say the teams, who are the teams? Talk about our conception, our right wing media conception of these teams. We talk about the elites. Who are the elites? You know damn well what the answer is supposed to be, right? And these answers aren't coming. No, no, it is, it is like Tucker,

you came to power by saying inflammatory, bombastic things. All right. you came to power by saying inflammatory Bombastic things all right. I came to power by being in the KGB Right, right saying lies and uninteresting things to people's faces and then murdering them when they're not looking Do you not understand why I'm not giving you a good interview right now? How do you in Russian? How do you say we are built different? Yeah? We just do things differently man. Yeah. We just do things differently, man. Yeah. We just do things differently. We got a different vibe.

Yeah, and this could have all been really smoothed away by, you know, a little bit of pre-interview shit. Some kind of direction that this should take. Seriously. I can't believe that fucking Jimmy Kimmel would have done a better interview, but it would have. Probably. Well, it wouldn't happen because we wouldn't reject that fucking Jimmy Kimmel would have done a better interview, but it would have. Probably. Well, it wouldn't happen,

because we wouldn't reject that interview. No, again, yeah, probably. So we get back to the notion of... You were my favorite late night TV. Yeah. You are as good as Letterman ever was. So we get back to the question of like negotiations in the end to the war in Ukraine.

And who does actually have the power there? That's a good question. Do you think Zelensky has the freedom to negotiate a settlement to this conflict? I don't know the details, of course it's difficult for me to judge, but I believe he has in any case he used to have. His father fought against the fascists, Nazis, during World War II. I once talked to him about this. I said, I'll kill you!

What are you doing? Why are you supporting neo-Nazis in Ukraine today, while your father fought against fascism? He was a frontline soldier. I will not tell you when he answered, this is a separate topic and I think it's incorrect for me to do so. But as to the freedom of choice, why not? He came to power on the expectations of Ukrainian people that he would lead Ukraine to peace. He talked about this. It was thanks to this that he won the elections overwhelmingly. But then, when he came to power, in my opinion, he realized two things. Firstly, it is better not to clash

with neo-nazis and nationalists, because they are aggressive and very active. You can expect anything from them. And secondly, the US-led west supports them and will always support those who and sagonize with Russia it is beneficial and safe so he took the relevant position despite promising his people to end the war in Ukraine he deceived his voters but do you think at this point as of February 2024 he has the latitude the freedom to speak with you or your government directly about putting an end to this, which clearly isn't helping his country or the world. Can he do that, do you think?

Why not? He considers himself head of state. He won the elections. Although we believe in Russia that the coup d'etat is the primary source of power for everything that happened after 2014. What about 2004? So the implication that Tucker is trying to get Putin to reinforce here is the idea that Zelensky is being forced to continue the war by Western forces who just want to fuck with Russia. Right. Putin does a good job of his non-answers here, but it seems like the general takeaway is, yes, Zelensky does have that power. He just doesn't want to stand up to Nazis because

it's too hard. Yeah. And that doesn't work, really. Yeah. Zelensky's weak is only useful insofar as it's used by the West to do stuff. Zelensky's weak to his own people is pointless. That just means he should be replaced, I guess. And this, this is supposed to be more like deep state kind of stuff. And he's saying now's the linsky. He was elected. He's got the power there. You can do it. Oh man. And you start to notice, like I said, I've brought this up before, but there's this manner of speaking that's a habit of telling a private conversation that he's had with

someone and then gets to the point where someone else says something is oh I prudence won't allow me to continue it's very weird it's a strange strategy that's used in conveying information I think you nailed it right on the head that is like it's better for you to imagine yeah the rest of this well because I asked here's what I asked the Lindsey is the Lindsey your father fought the Nazis why are you on the Nazi side and he said back to me? Are you fucking insane? Have you lost your goddamn mind? Are you out of your fucking mind? This is the real world Do you know what the fuck we are doing? It's not appropriate for me to continue this story. Yeah, that's better

Yeah, yeah stick with that one. So obviously another selling point for Putin in the right wing media is this idea of his for Putin in the right wing media is this idea of his religiosity. We heard that in the Lauren Witzke interview that Alex did on our last episode. There's this idea of him bringing in the church. That's what you gotta do, Russian Orthodox. And so Tucker really wants to get into that here. He wants to talk about the church.

Did you know that Zelensky banned Christianity? Oh my God. Yeah. You've described the connection between Russia and Ukraine. You've described Russia itself a couple of times as orthodox that's central to your understanding of Russia You've said you're orthodox. What does that mean? For you you're a Christian leader By your own description, so what effect does that have on you?

You know as I already mentioned in 988, oh god, himself as Baptist, following example of his grandmother, Princess Olga. And then he baptized his squad, and then gradually over the course of several years, he baptized all the Rus. It was a lengthy process, from pagans to Christians. It's been many years. But in the end, this orthodoxy, eastern Christianity, deeply rooted itself in the consciousness of the Russian people. usefully expanded than absorbed other nations who profess Islam Buddhism and Judaism Russia has always been very loyal to those people who

profess other religions her strength Wow this is absolutely clear I lied to people and then kill them when they're not looking do you not understand me main values are very similar not to say the same in all world religions I've just mentioned and which are the traditional religions of the Russian Federation. Russian. By the way, Russian authorities were always very careful about the culture and religion of those people who came into the Russian Empire.

Really? Yeah, they're the pinnacle of religious tolerance. Really? Yeah, totally. Empire really yeah they're the pinnacle of religious tolerance really yeah totally I had you know when I remember my Cossack history mm-hmm I seem to recall them being very open and honest about their feelings vis-a-vis murdering a lot of people a lot of that wouldn't even be relevant if he didn't bring up the 900s there is that there is that so it's his own fault right but yeah even in the present day,

there is intense religious intolerance. I mean, intolerance is a fucking a stuff. Discuss that on the last episode, a number of elements of that. And it's pretty wild for this to be just presented. And go, yep, this is what it is. No pushback whatsoever. You know, now that you have, like you

teased it at the beginning, that at the very end it changes. Yeah. And it is like, I can feel me personally, like I could only handle being lied to this much. Sure. It'd be frustrating. And after someone's been a dick to you. Totally.

But like, you're Tucker, so you're coming in fully prepared to be like, the whole thing is a lie. Of course I expect you to lie, it's not gonna bother me. I expect you to lie in the ways that work for me. Exactly. To have lasted this long without being like, alright, I'm done with this shit. Fuck it, let's go. Let's be real then. If you're not going to do the right thing, by which I mean the most evil thing I can think of. I don't actually even think that that's the turn. Yeah. That I'm talking about. It's not too far off, but you'll see. I think that there's a reason that things

went the way they did. OK. And it's not so much like it is a hard question, but I also really think Tucker thought it would go a different way. Oh, OK. That's we'll see. You see, because for, right now, I'm in this space of like, listen, I did my best. Fuck you. Let's do this. You know, let's go. You've been an asshole to me, and guess what? You can't kill me yet.

You can't kill me yet. So fuck you, world leader. But you know me, I want piss on world leaders faces all day. Would you like this non-poisoned Faberge egg? The idea of being supplicant to that fucker. Well, there is a sense that you get that ramps up a little bit more, especially, you know, because the first hour or half hour, excuse me, is this history lesson, and then, you know, towards the back end, you do see him, Tucker,

trying to inject his stuff. Yeah. Like this is an opportunity for you to say the things that will play to the audience. Right, right, right. And then just falling or like non-answer answers. Right. You know, there is a slight frustration

that is probably building. But I don't think it boils over in the way that you might normally expect someone to yeah And it is it is another example of like if it if it were a Greenwald and Alex, you know Greenwald will just give you the answer, you know, you'll say something in Greenwald be like yeah It was really great that what you meant to say was blah blah blah blah, but that's because there isn't really an inherent power Exactly between the two it is this power imbalance where you can't just be like, hey, Putin, that was great.

Now, what you meant to say, you know? Let's reframe the question. Right. So all religions in Russia should actually, you know, unite it under patriotism. Coexist. Yeah. That's what everybody wears, the bumper sticker.

Yeah. And then Tucker asks a strange question that I think is, like, I think it would be impossible for anybody, world leader, even dictator or not, to answer. People who profess different religions in Russia consider Russia their motherland. They have no other motherland. We are together.

This is one big family. And our traditional values are very similar. I've just mentioned one big family, but everyone has his, her own family. And this is the basis of our society. And if we say that the motherland and the family are specifically connected with each other. It is indeed the case, since it is impossible to ensure a normal future for our children and our families unless we ensure a normal, sustainable future for the entire country, for the motherland. That is why patriotic sentiment is so strong in Russia. Can I say that the one way in which the religions are different is that Christianity is specifically

a non-violent religion? Jesus says from the other cheek, don't kill. How can a leader who has to kill of any country, how can a leader be a Christian? How do you reconcile that to yourself? Whoa. You can't. The end. Jesus said that shit. It is very easy.

Never mind. I was wrong. Family wants homeland. We won't attack anyone. When did the Dalai Lama begin? Since the coup d'etat and the hostilities in Donbass begun, that's when they started. And we're protecting our people, ourselves, our homeland and our future. As for religion in general,

you know, it's not about external manifestations. It's not about going to church every day or banging your head on the floor. I don't actually believe in either shit. It is in the heart. It's in the heart. Yep, I make it up. Deep's in the heart. Yep. I make it up deep in here. Yeah. So that that's an interesting first of all, it's an interesting question for Tucker to

throw out because it's impossible. Well, I mean, yeah, situation to negotiate. You cannot like that's the answer is you can't. But if you're the leader, you can't say that. Right. But I think that Putin's non answer answer there is actually probably as good as you can do probably which is define everything as self-defense and then all aggression justified in the religious context that's it what you can't defend yourself now of course you can

now I mean admittedly we don't live there and it's other people and they have their own government and their own little borders and their own bag of self-defense but it's other people and they have their own government and their own little boat borders and their own bag. Self defense. But it's self defense because they used to be us. Right. And now they are not. Uh-huh. Let me tell you about. But guess what?

They still are. Let me tell you about 900, baby. Yeah. Yeah. Ha ha ha. Oh, man. Yeah, it is such a fun truth of like, listen, if you've read the book, you know you can't.

The answer is you cannot do those things you can't be both right? But no world leader can be like well, I read the book and it turns out I can't be a Christian so sorry That would be weird I believe in the religion and I do all that stuff But I've given up the actual chance of a relationship with God and Christ in order to lead you as people That would be a strange thing for them to say. It would be a strange thing for them to say. But I think that this is one of the instances of like, that is about what Tucker would have wanted

as an answer from that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is, it plays up the importance of religion. It justifies, you know, being a Christian leader and still being at war. Yep. That works pretty well. And I think that it goes off rails. Yeah, sort of a crusade, holy war. Yep. That works pretty well. And I think that it goes off rails.

Yeah. Sort of a crusade, holy war type thing. Yeah. Well, this is this next clip is probably my favorite moment in the in the entire interview. Okay. So Putin saying that, you know, the West is more pragmatic, whereas the East has more spiritual things going on. Sounds right. And so Tucker asks a follow upup question that is just like, I don't even know how to describe it, just something falling. It's just a balloon deflating. Okay. Western society is more pragmatic.

Russian people think more about the eternal, about moral values. I don't know, maybe you won't agree with me, but Western culture is more pragmatic after all. I'm not saying this is bad. It makes it possible for today's golden billion to achieve good success in production, even in science and so on. There's nothing wrong with that. I'm just saying that we kind of look the same. Do you see the supernatural at work as you look out across what's happening in the world now? Do you see God at work? Do you ever think to yourself, these are forces that are not human? No, to be honest, I don't think so. My opinion is that the development of the

world community is in accordance with inherent laws and those laws are what they are. It's always been this way in the history of mankind. Some nations and countries rose, became stronger and more numerous, and then left the international stage losing the status they had the custom to. There is probably no need for me to give examples, but we could start with the G's Han and Horde Conquerors. I think we should start there. And then end with the Roman Empire. Great idea. It seems that there has never been anything like the Roman Empire in the history of mankind.

Sure, sure. So yeah, there's nothing quite as juicy as that moment where Tucker is like, do you see God at work? Nah, not particularly. This is this is so much like I we it is so much what I've talked about with with like the different factions of Christianity, you know, oh, the religious right is all this stuff. Yeah, but if you actually got a Catholic and a Southern Baptist to like talk about what they believe at each other, they

don't believe any of the same shit. You know, like this is Tucker and they have doctrinal differences. We have. Oh, oh, shit. We don't believe in the same shit at all. But the problem is that, you know, especially through various avenues of the right wing media, they've presented Putin as this guy who's fighting the New World Order and they have the same ideas about yeah You know divine battles and stuff like that. Yep Tucker apparently has been fighting demons with Alex And so this question is really meant to like pay off that give me something and instead it is a complete Rejection of the premise just no clue what they're dealing with right. It's just like no

I think that history has trends and people. Amazing. This is kind of like, I don't know if I would call it refreshing so much as like, I suppose it would be refreshing for a moment to fall off a waterfall, you know, to be on the edge and then go and then be in the air and be,

wow, this is cool. You know, and then you die. Like that's kind of how I feel about this. Like I feel like, yeah, they should lie to each other and feel mad and hate each other. That's fun. And then we die, you know, but there there is a there is a there is a moment of, I think you got it. You got you gotta feel you know I don't feel bad for him but you gotta feel bad for Tucker at the moment where Putin says nope. Do you see the supernatural at work? Fuck no. I see that

that's a moment where I don't feel bad for Tucker that's a moment where I feel like Tucker would be 100% justified in being like, excuse me, I am mad at the crew. This is their fault. I should have seen this shit coming. Sure. Yeah. So he's talking about Putin is talking about, you know, he mentions the Roman Empire and this prompts somewhat out of nowhere. Tucker to ask about the AI empire. Oh, for God's sakes. It took five centuries for the Roman Empire to fall apart. Let's just get off history, anything. Computers. The difference with what is happening now is that all the processes of change are happening

at the much faster pace than in Roman times. So when does the AI Empire start, do you think? Do you think? You're asking increasingly more complicated questions. To answer them, you need to be an expert in big numbers, big data and AI. MENKA is currently facing many threats. Due to the genetic researches. It is now possible to create a superhuman, a specialized human being, a genetically engineered athlete, scientist, military man.

There are reports that Elon Musk had already had a chip implanted in the human brain in the USA. What do you think of that? Well, I think there's no stopping Elon Musk. He will do as he sees fit. Nevertheless, you need to find some common ground with him, search for ways to persuade him. I think he's a smart person. I truly believe he is. So you need to reach an agreement with him because this process needs to be formalized and subjected to certain rules.

The answer there is like, you got to get that Elon Musk guy in check. That guy's going to do some crazy shit. I know I can't, I can't help but think like this was the perfect app. This made my waterfall thing make perfect sense because I feel like we just died. I feel like we just died like that was my feeling whatever he's like you know Elon has some good ideas bad. We're fucked. But he's stopped. But he's also very clearly saying like oh yeah you got to stop his own devices. This is going to be bad. You better regulate that. He's an idiot. Yeah. Absolutely. Which also kind of runs counter a bit to a lot of the larger, uh, you know, I mean, it all goes back to that question that Tucker was asking about the two teams, you know, like

Putin, Musk, all of them are supposed to be on the same team. Yeah. He's being like, you got to check that guy. Yeah, it is interesting because their false realities are both in response to a different reality. You know, like Putin's false reality is in response to a real politic kind of like, how do I maneuver world events? And Tucker's false reality is in response to like, how do I make liberals mad?

Yeah, yeah, it's a little different. Yeah. So now we get to the point where I am saying this shit changes. Yeah. Tucker decides to ask his last question. Sure. And this last question is something I never necessarily would have expected him to come out with. I appreciate all the time you've given us. I just got to ask you one last question, and that's about someone who's very famous in the United States, probably not here, Evan Gershkovitz, who's the Wall Street Journal reporter. He's 32, and he's been in prison for almost a year. This is a huge story in the United States, and I just want to ask you directly, without

getting into the details of it, or your version of what happened, if as a sign of your decency you would be willing to release him to us and we'll bring him back to the United States. Мы сделали так много реакций от хорошего удовольствия, из-за того, что я думаю, что мы из них не выиграли. Но мы никогда не видели любого, кто нас в таком же манер. В теории мы можем сказать, что мы не работаем, что мы можем это сделать. We can say that we do not rule out that we can do that if our partners take reciprocal steps. So this has not been a hard hinting interview at all. And I think that it's kind of a dud for both Tucker and Putin, but this was not something

I expected. I, I, you saw my mouth was open. I was like, I genuinely did not. That was nuts. That was open. I was like, I genuinely did not. That was nuts. That was nuts. Tucker is straight up asking Putin to release an American journalist hostage. Yeah. For fun. And Putin is basically saying that he'll release him if the price is right. I mean, what are we talking about? Hostage situation, not a legitimate arrest that this person's gone through. This is bold for Tucker to try. Imagine if it had worked. I mean that would be, I

mean there's a certain amount of fun with that of like, why not? I mean the guy could literally just say, yeah fuck it, you have him. What does he care? I think that Tucker was really hoping that that's what you would do. Yeah, maybe if I catch him off balance, then he'll just be like, I don't really think you would recognize the propaganda value. Totally. There'd be a win. But what Tucker doesn't realize is that would also make Putin incredibly weak. Real politic. Yeah. Yeah. You can't just go around releasing hostages to any old journalist like that quote unquote. And I

need to get something for this hostage. Yeah. Otherwise, I would have released him already. Otherwise, it's not really a hostage situation. I'm just keeping a guy at my house. Right. Now here is where there's a distinction between I think what Tucker's doing and something that hits more in the realm of hard question. Yeah. Hard question is talking about this and being confrontational about it. Yeah. What Tucker is doing is trying to create an incredible scene where he gets this guy released. 100%. This is about Tucker being here. There's a showiness to it,

as opposed to just highlighting an issue, because it's the first thing he asks, is will you release him to us so we can take him home? Amazing. Which, I mean, the impetus isn't wrong. No. I guess. I mean, at that point though. That's not a serious question

You know it is it is like boy. It's a long shot You might as you might as well be like hey you want to participate in a stunt actually you don't even really need to give Back hey, would you it's like a proposal as a show of your decency? Yeah, you agree to withdraw from Ukraine. Yeah, I mean it is it is it is so much that like Yeah, fuck it. I'll say yes, but I'll change my mind in two seconds. This isn't real. It's not but Tucker had no reason necessarily to bring up Evan Gershkovich. No, he really didn't there is no reason to Based on the premise and the entire track of this interview Yeah, but he did and that is a choice And it's a choice that I cannot not commend in some way. I mean, I suppose I don't know. But

it does something real fucked up about this because one Gershkovitch isn't a real person now. Not to Tucker. If he'd saved his life, Tucker would just call him every week and be like, you know, your life belongs to me. Tucker is a fucking insane, insane malignant narcissist psychopath. I'm not sure if I'm not sure that it's that far or whatever, but it does reveal something and that is through this entire interview. Tucker has been sitting on a very clear awareness that Tucker has or Putin is imprisoned, a journalist for the sake of using them as a hostage negotiation. So he has that awareness in his mind as he's having this

Uh-huh sort of in in impotent Bizarre conversation. Yeah, that's weird. Yeah, that is so weird That is so we I mean, okay. Well, it does make sense if you actually believe Somehow some way, that Putin is a good guy, which is insane. Or would be enough of a calculating person to recognize the value in appearing to be a good guy.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And especially with this interview being set up to make it look like Putin is the is the good guy He's not the aggressor. He's the one being He's the one trying to make peace. He's the one trying to be the hero, right? That's the premise established through Tucker's coverage in the past and a lot of the picture that's been allowed to be painted Right. So then if Putin knows this then Putin knows Americans and our movies and loves that shit.

And when Tucker does this, Putin will be like, you know what? I am the good guy. This will prove it. This will prove everybody in America is lying about Russia. That'll make Trump the president, et cetera. You know, all of that stuff. But right? It's such it's so short-sighted.

It's so stupid. It doesn't recognize that. Okay. Now he releases him. That means that he's been holding a journalist hostage for a year. Yep. And he can just flippantly decide to release him for PR purposes. Yep. And that, that is, that's an additional problem that, uh, I mean, it is, it is, it's like, I have every reason to know this wouldn't work. So, so what was he doing?

That's why it drops. That's why I dropped my job. The issue of release him to us is really where the rubber meets the road and where things are a little different for me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like demanding he be released is one thing. Release him to his family. Yeah. Release him to us now so we can put it on TV. And we have taken back, we have a big crescendo for this thing. It's just, it's weird. Be part of our show.

Yeah. Are we doing a show or a serious thing? Are we doing a show or a serious thing? And you said serious thing like a fucking idiot because you think that you're lying the right way to a liar. Amazing. Can't bullshit a bullshitter. Amazing. So the issue is that

Putin believes that Gershkovitz was, Gershkovitz was spying. He was arrested for espionage. Yeah. And so this is disgusted. Tucker is like, he's not a spy. Yeah, obviously. What is happening? I think what makes this, and it's not

my business, but what makes this difference is the guy's obviously not a spy He's a kid and maybe he was breaking your law in some way But he's not a super spy and everybody knows that and he's being held hostage in exchange, which is true with respect It's true. Everyone knows it's true. So maybe he's in a different category Maybe it's not fair to ask for you know, somebody else in exchange for letting him out Maybe it degrades fair to ask for somebody else in exchange for letting him out. Maybe it degrades Russia to do that. You know, you can give different interpretations to what constitutes a spy, but there are certain things provided by law. If a person gets secret information and does that in conspiratorial manner, then this is a qualified as espionage.

And that is exactly what he was doing. He was receiving classified confidential information and he did it covertly. Maybe he did that out of carelessness or his own initiative. Considering the sheer fact that this is qualified as espionage, the fact has been proven as he was caught red-handed when he was receiving this information. If it had been some far-fetched excuse, fabrication, something not proven, it would have been different story then. But he was caught red-handed when he was secretly getting confidential information. What is it then?

But are you suggesting he was working for the US government or NATO, or he was just a reporter who was given material he wasn't supposed to have? Those seem like very different things. different, very different things. I don't know who he was working for, but I would like to reiterate that getting classified information in secret is called espionage, and he was working for the U.S. Special Services and some other agencies It's a pretty chilling picture We're getting here right at the end of this interview in the span of the last like 10 seconds of that clip Putin deflects a question from Tucker

about whether he thinks that Evan was a spy or just a journalist saying I don't know who he works for only to Immediately after that say he was working for US special services. Yeah, that's weird I really think that the First Amendment people who love Putin so much really need to take a hard look in the mirror. It seems very strange that someone could possibly watch this interview and not come out with their feelings about both dudes seriously diminished. Tucker looks very foolish and kind of incompetent through most of the interview, but I would be dishonest if I didn't say that this was moment that I would not have predicted, I would not. I and I wouldn't have predicted it from any mainstream journalist.

Probably. That's for sure. It's a legitimately tough question that he's posing to Putin. Yep. The rest of this has not been very intense and Tucker's had zero control over the interview from the jump, right? But you got to give it a point where there's a point deserved and, you know, pushing back on this is probably pretty fucking

scary. This is one of the wildest, I think interviews that I've ever halfway heard. Well I think if you heard the whole thing you'd be more bored. I would be far more bored. That's, I mean yeah, this is so much one of Putin's stories. As long as you don't listen to the interview, your imagination of the details is way better.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But at the same time, like, what this exists at from a distance, like, if you don't microscope this, I just, I find it so fascinating that both of them have kind of come to the conclusion that this should just be, you know, we'll just let this one fade into the dust. Well, big, you know. Yeah, I can understand it. I do too, but at the same time, it just seems like there should be a different result. I think the result should be like a legitimate

reassessment of the American right wing of their opinions about Putin. 100%, you saw what the guy I think talker accidentally created a portrait of somebody who's Blowhard believes I mean deserves to take Ukraine and is hostile towards journalism It is so funny because it is like I'm getting my red dawn up. I'm feeling it You know, I'm feeling my like rush is not taking my like I'm feeling it in there. Just listening to Putin lie to me. I'm like fuck. Yeah, we'll fucking Regan all the way, you know, like it's that bad and somehow the right wing is like this is the good guy amazing it really it really is

bizarre to not reconsider it's I mean how can you hear this and even lie to yourself about the lies? The lies themselves are fucking horrifying. So Putin's saying, hey look, we're negotiating this shit. Sure. I'm not going to give him to you. No, I'm going to say, what are you talking about, you child? And I think through Putin's conversation that he has around trying to justify why this person was a spy.

Right. I think Tucker gets a little bit of a second wind in him. Uh-oh. Maybe a first wind, honestly. Oh, yeah. Let me tell you a story about a person serving a sentence in an allied country of the US. That person, due to patriotic sentiments, eliminated the bandit in one of the European capitals.

Eliminated the bandit? During the events in the Caucasus, doitals. Eliminated abandoned? During the events in the Caucasus, do you know what he was doing? I don't want to say that, but I will do it anyway. He was laying our soldiers, taken prisoner, on the road, and then drove his car over their heads. What kind of person is that? Can he even be called human? But there was a patriot who eliminated him in one of the European capitals. Whether he did it of his

own volition or not, that is a different question. Ah, no, no, no. I mean, that's a completely different... I mean, it's a 32-year-old... He committed something different. He's not just a journalist. I reiterate, he's a journalist who was secretly getting confidential information. Yes, it is different, but still, I'm talking about other people who are essentially controlled by the US authorities, wherever they are serving a sentence. There is an ongoing dialogue between the special services. This has to be resolved in a calm, responsible and professional manner. They are keeping in touch, so let them do their work. I do not rule out that the person you refer to, Mr. Gershkovits, may return to his motherland.

By the end of the day, it does not make any sense to keep him in prison in Russia. We want the U.S. special services to think about how they can contribute to achieving the goals our special services are pursuing. We are ready to talk. Moreover, the talks are underway. And there have been many successful examples of these talks crowned with success. Probably this is going to be crowned with success as well. But we have to come to an agreement. I hope you let him out. Mr. President, thank you. I also want him to return to his homeland at last.

I'm absolutely sincere. But let me say once again, the dialogue continues. The more public we render things of this nature, the more difficult it becomes to resolve them. Everything has to be done in calm manner. I wonder if that's true with the war, though, also. I mean, I just want to, I guess I want to ask one more question, which is... Wait. And maybe you don't want to say so for strategic reasons.

But are you worried that what's happening in Ukraine could lead to something much larger and much more horrible? And how motivated are you just to call the US government and say let's come to terms? Fuck you. Not at all. What are you fucking talking about? Go away! I already said that we did not refuse to talk. We're willing to negotiate. It is the western site and Ukraine is obviously a satellite state of the US. It is evident. I do not want you to take it as if I'm looking for a strong word or an insult, but we both understand what is evident. I do not want you to take it as if I'm looking for a strong word or an insult But we both understand what is happening

So this is such a wild end to the interview because it doesn't tonally match the rest of this at all Yeah, Tucker is taking the reins and it almost feels like he's been emboldened by asking about releasing this journalist And I think a big part of that is that in order to justify jailing a journalist Putin throws out this wild story about a patriot killing a bandit and being arrested. This is so disconnected from the issue at hand which is telling and it shows weakness in Putin's position, needing to grasp that far to make excuses. Now Tucker's throwing out a somewhat veiled accusation that Putin's inaction on reaching out to the United States to work towards a peace deal is somehow analogous to the situation

with holding this journalist for the sake of a prisoner exchange. The implication of this question branching off the talk about the imprisoned journalist would lead one to think that Tucker is saying that the situation in Ukraine is something that Putin is holding hostage, that he could release if he was given the right price, and Putin's refusal to open the negotiation runs the risk of causing a broader disaster. That mentality runs counter to the story about the war that's been told through all of right wing media, including Tucker's work,

and it's dissonant with this interview itself. That could be like a really decent moment, but Putin's able to undercut it by saying, come on man, we both know that Ukraine's a puppet state in the United States. And Tucker can't argue with that because he said that a ton of times. He's the one who said it.

Yeah, this is one of the reasons why Tucker is ill-equipped to do this interview because he can't really follow through with points that can get around Putin's dodges. He's hamstrung by his own narratives and it undercuts what is potentially like a pretty tough moment there. This is another part of, this is just fascinating,

where Tucker tries to do the throw to commercial type wrap up where he says thank you for your time I hope you let him out. Yep, and Putin laughs and keeps talking Putin wasn't gonna let Tucker have that sting so he goes on and Tucker needs to reassert his power So he launches into that question about the war and Putin's inaction on negotiating an end to it This is somewhat confrontational But you kind of get a clear sense of this path of conversation like if it hadn't have happened then Tucker wouldn't have asked that question Yeah, which is weird. Yeah, it does still have so much of the feeling of it being personal Yeah, he couldn't I don't I don't even know if that one was thought I think if somebody shows weakness in an interview Tucker

Just can't not Especially someone who's being a dick to it. Yeah, yeah I think that's the there is a lot going on and a lot of it is Based on feelings. Yeah. Yeah, I mean this is definitely one of those like This is one of those Napoleon scenarios where it's like listen you got to kill him You can't exile him to an island because if he's still alive, he's gonna come back You got to take you can't get off that island. You can't get it. Yeah you can't let this happen. Putin will not stop. There's no reason for him. What about what about a ghost of Mars situation. There's just no you know it's

like you just there's just one thing to do or let him take over everything. Well, Tucker has has some rejoiners sure that he can he can throw in and that is like, Hey, man, of course, Ukraine's a satellite of the United States. Yeah, yeah, we're already past that. But then what does that imply? Oh, dozens of billions of US dollars are going to Ukraine. There's a huge influx of weapons. In this case, you should tell the current Ukrainian leadership to stop and come to negotiating table. Recindus absurd decree. We did not refuse. Sure, but you already said it. I didn't think you meant it as an insult because you already said correctly it's been reported that Ukraine was prevented from negotiating a peace settlement

by the former British prime minister acting on behalf of the Biden administration. So что украина была предназначена от негутирующего сеттолбина от премьер-британских премьер-битанских премьер-битанских премьер-битанских премьер-битанских премьер-битанских премьер-битанских премьер-битанских премьер-битанских премьер-битанских премьер-битанских премьер-битанских премьер-битанских премьер-битанских премьер-битанских премьер-битанских премьер-битанских премьер-битанских премьер-битанских премьер-битанских премьер-битанских премьер-битанских премьер-битанских премьер-битанских премьер-битанских премьер-битанских премьер-битанских премьер-битанских премьер-битанских премьер-битанских премьер-битанских премьер-битанских премьер-битанских премьер-битанских премьер-битанских премьер-битанских премьер-битанских премьер-битанских премьер-битанских премьер-битанских премьер-битанских премьер-битанских премьер-битанских премьер-битанских премьер-битанских премьер-битанских прем Well, if the Zelensky administration in Ukraine refused to negotiate, I assume they did it under the instruction from Washington. If Washington believes it to be the wrong decision, let it abandon it. Let it find a delicate excuse so that no one is insulted. Let it come up with a way out. It was not us who made this decision. It was them. So let them go back on it. That is it. That's it. Everybody's fault. Boris Johnson did say the Ukraine shouldn't accept the terms of Putin's deal, but there's no evidence that he strong armed them into that position

at all. Ukrainian representatives indicated they were inclined not to accept the terms of Putin's deal, but there's no evidence that he strong armed them into that position at all. Ukrainian representatives indicated they were inclined not to accept the deals Russia was offering, partially because they had no reason to trust that Putin would live up to his end. But now we've entered into a somewhat paradoxical world. Ukraine is a satellite country of the United States, so there's no reason for Putin to try to negotiate with them. But also Zelensky wouldn't have made that decree that Ukrainians can't negotiate with Putin unless the US told him so, so there's no reason to try and negotiate with the United States either. Putin knows that Ukraine and the United States aren't going to concede to his demands, so this becomes a very convenient

way to argue that no negotiation is possible. No negotiation on his terms is probably possible. That is probably true. And because he doesn't get to dictate the terms It's everyone else's fault for not playing into his shit. Yeah, that's they're making excuses Yeah, I mean at this point there's no way to view it as anything other than existential for Ukraine So there's no stopping the war unless Ukraine exists and there's no stopping the war unless Ukraine doesn't exist So that's that that does seem to be that. Yeah. So Tucker asks a clarifying question that is like, Okay, let's just be clear. You want a settled end to this war, right?

With the ownership of the world. Wow. So I just want to make sure I'm not misunderstanding what you're saying. I don't think that I am. I think you're saying you want a negotiated settlement to what's happening in Ukraine. saying you want a negotiated settlement to what's happening in Ukraine. Right. And we made it. We prepared a huge document in Istanbul that was initialed by the head of the Ukrainian delegation. He had fixed his signature to some of the provisions. Not to all of it. He put his signature and then he himself said, We were ready to sign it and the war would have been over long ago, 18 months ago.

However, Prime Minister Johnson came, talked us out of it and we missed that chance. Well, you missed it, you made a mistake, let them get back to bed, that is all. Why do we have to bother ourselves and correct somebody else's mistakes? Sure! You may notice a very important detail that Putin's just kind of casually glossing over, namely that the Ukrainian side hadn't agreed to all the terms of the agreement at Istanbul. Well, Boris Johnson didn't force or court Ukraine or Zelensky into anything, and he's come out very aggressively against this accusation. It all stems from a Ukrainian negotiator who said that when Johnson visited Kiev on

April 9th, 2022, he said that Ukraine quote, shouldn't sign anything with them at all, and let's just fight. We've talked about this before. This is a guy named David Arhamiya and part of that, you know, the thing that the Putin-loving side leans, leaves out of this is that he also said that agreeing to the terms presented by Russia would require a change to the Ukrainian constitution and that they weren't inclined to trust Russia under Putin to keep its arrangement. He didn't say what Putin's claiming here.

That's an embellishment to put it politely. He also said that the whole denazification thing was a charade that Russia was using to hide its primary concern Which is making sure that Ukraine doesn't join NATO right this comment from our Hami is what the whole narrative is henged on Even when it's coming from the head of the belligerent state in this negotiation strange Putin doesn't have more evidence of this past what you'd hear like on info wars. It's really weird There's no more evidence being presented I mean it's the same shit that goes on and right with media it is it is a testament to the completeness of

Information control in Russia, you know where it's like you can be this lazy Hmm, I mean if you give it ten years here, you can be this lazy jump was that lazy? Yeah, absolutely And people people still believe him people believe all the bullshit. He says so why not I think when you are a charismatic believe all the bullshit he says so why not? I think when you are a charismatic attempted authoritarian or authoritarian you kind of get away with a lot. Yeah I don't I mean it is so much like it is it is childish and stupid to think that there is a settlement with Putin right there's a settlement with Russia yeah that's fine and Russia's people yeah there's no settlement with Putin. There's a settlement with Russia. That's fine. Russia's people. There's no settlement with Putin. Because if you settle with Putin now, then five years from now, Putin spent five years building up a

military so he can take back your shit. Or you spent five years building up a military, in which case everybody wasted five years of time building up a military to continue a conflict that's going on now. So it's stupid. And is like if past is prelude going to continue, going to continue as long as there is not a Russia friendly leader in Ukraine. Because he doesn't believe Ukraine's a country. And he thinks that it's all fake. Right. There is no end to the war so long as Putin is alive. That's it. And unless there is the sort of negative end to the war, which is

Putin wins installing a permanent right, the Russia friendly dictator. And you totally. Yep, that's it. So here's where the interview ends. Okay. And it's sort of a fake optimism on Putin's part. Interesting. They have driven the situation to the point where we are at.

It is not us who have done that. It is our partners, opponents who have done that. Well, now let them think how to reverse the situation. We're not against it. It would be funny if it were not so sad. если бы не было так грустно. Эта мобилизация в Украине, хистерия, проблемами демистики, скоро и позже это будет результат.

Вы знаете, это будет странно, в том числе, что в данном случае, но relations between the two peoples will be rebuilt anyway. It will take a lot of time, but they will heal. I'll give you very unusual examples. There is a combat encounter on the battlefield. Here is a specific example. Ukrainian soldiers get encircled. This is an example from real life. Our soldiers were shouting to them, there is no chance, surrender yourselves, come out and you will be alive.

surrender yourselves, come out and you will be alive. Suddenly the Ukrainian soldiers were screaming from there in Russian, perfect Russian saying, Russians do not surrender and all of them perished. They still identify themselves as Russian. You have learned the wrong lessons! What is happening is to a certain extent an element of a civil war. Everyone in the West thinks that the Russian people have been split by hostilities forever. No, they will be reunited. The unity is still there. Why are the Ukrainian authorities dismantling the Ukrainian Orthodox Church?

Because it brings together not only the territory, it brings together ourselves. No one will be able to sacrifice. You fucker! No one. How dare you you fucker? Shall we end here or is there anything else? No, tell me more about souls. I think that's great. Thank you, Mr. President. No, I think that's great. Jesus fucking Christ. Yeah, so the optimistic, sort of beautiful, flowery end is, this will all be fine because we're all Russians anyway. I mean, the idea that that doesn't tell you everything you need to know and basically nullify any possible value

the previous two hours could have had. Yeah. It speaks loudly. Listen, at the end of the day, what's important is I've already won. Right. And it's just a basic reality. Yeah, like, yeah, what matters is that all of you everywhere are fucking wrong and stupid. Yeah, I am smart and strong and I am good looking as

well. The people in Ukraine have been tricked into thinking they're not Russian. And that is what we must beat out of them. Yeah, man. Wow. Yeah, it's something weird after this one. Yeah. Thank you, Mr. President. Free speech is bigger than any one person or any one organization. Societies are defined by what they will not commit.

What we're watching is the total inversion of virtue. That's it. That's the story. Yeah, man. Like, I was thinking like... That is it. That's the story. Like, I was thinking like... That is apt? Wrongly? That is... That is so wrong it is apt. Yeah. Yeah.

And what's something that's so bizarre about this is that this interview, if slightly more confrontational, and if it had some of the vibe that, you know, came around at the end, you know, asking about the jailed journalist, sure, if that came from someone who wasn't Tucker, this interview probably works very negatively against Putin. Absolutely. But because it's Tucker, it's...

That's why... But that's... So, but see, this is what's so great about this, because this ends every conversation, every argument from now on about this type of thing. It's so great what I love about this inexplicably right this proves definitively the reason that Tucker was chosen is because there is no downside There's no bad outcome. This is a neutral outcome. This is a zero. Yeah, which is not what you want There's no yeah, you would prefer a plus 100 in the win column

But ultimately this is as bad as it could get which is Nothing, you know, so if you are going to say like oh well should we talk to Alex? Should we talk to Joe Rose should we do any of this stuff if you are talking to him? This is you your Tucker you are nothing the reason you are allowed to talk to them is because you pose zero threat and that is the answer. So if you are a Crescent, Steen, go fuck yourself. You pose zero threat destiny, except zero threat. But it's interesting is that you have zero threat. Yeah. Even when you're doing something that is nominally threatening. Yeah, yeah, which is why they choose you for it because it is why is the appearance of something real that

is not real. Well, because also it's a deep fake if you will. But I think part of it too is that Putin has a clear understanding that in order to be against Putin, yeah, Tucker would have to change a lot of everything, admit he was wrong about a ton of stuff. He would have to do the one thing he cannot do. Right, so you kind of have the interviewer in a position where even if you do ask kind of hard questions, you know that they have a vested interest in you wiggling out of the situation.

Absolutely. And I think that that is kind of a lose from the beginning. Absolutely. And still, even still, it is worth recognizing that this did not go nearly in the direction that I think everybody in their space would have hoped it would. Oh, totally. And it's not for lack of trying. No.

Because Tucker did try. That's what's so fascinating about it. He tried to weave things in those directions. Do you see God at work? Who are the teams? Who are the elites? Please talk about the deep state. You know, he tried to weave into those conspiracy

territories, and Putin just didn't. Yeah. Here's what I wish. That's weird. Here's what I would like. I would like, because I don't believe that I will ever have agreement with the far right on stuff It seems doubtful, but what I do think we can agree on is that if somebody is a giant loser

We just go ah, that's a giant loser. Mmm, and you have watched Tucker and Vladimir Putin Be giant losers. So they're both giant losers. It seems loser. It's loser shit. Yeah. It's weak sauce. And yeah, it's I'd be a such a better dictator than Putin. I'd be so great at it. I don't dictate the shit out of things. Don't think you would. I'd be like, oh man, let's not fight this war. It'd be not hard. And then I'd be killed immediately. Sure. I'd be dead. Well, I guess I really then comes down to the question of how do you define a good dictatorship, you know? One that's dead.

Oh, yeah. Well, in that case, yeah, you'd be great. I'd be great at it. Yeah. You know, I struggle with this because on the one hand, you have to ask yourself, does Tucker come out of this looking like a good interviewer?

And I think the answer is no with a very, very small with a small window that is even still ruined by his clear interest in the spectrum promotion. Yeah. Yeah. It's not ruined, but it's tainted. Let's sure. Sure. Sure. Sure. So I think not. I think Tucker doesn't come out of this looking like,

again, with that slight exception, cause I do think that that would take a lot of nerve So I think not I think Tucker doesn't come out of this looking like Again with that slight exception because I do think that that would take a lot of nerve to pull the trigger on that right with sitting That across the table from Putin. I think it would be easier Honestly like legitimately serious talk It would be easier for me to try and kill Putin than it would be to ask that question Because that's a scary question to ask. Yeah, unless you're holding a fucking knife to Putin's throat. You don't really know how the ball's going to break. It could go any way, and Putin kills people. So that does deserve a tip of the cap in some way.

True. But still, despite that, the rest of it is not good interviewing. No. It's not driving points home necessarily. It's not interesting. No. He let him hold court for half an hour about Russian history and then seemed to

not understand the point until reflection, which is why he had to have this disclaimer at the beginning. Yeah. So then you ask yourself, does Putin come off looking strong? And I think not. No. To whom is this? Do you know what I mean? If like I understand at before this, I assumed that this was for the right wing to the American right wing. Yeah, for the American right wing to solidify their support around Putin. That seems like the only reason to do this. And especially because coming forward is the

idea that if Trump is elected, we're gonna go fuck off NATO, you know? Yeah, so this should be this should be essentially Preparation for everybody on the right wing going yes, it's totally fine to throw out the past 80 years of orthodoxy and become Pro-russia, right? It seems like that would be why you do this because the end goal or the fruits as it were of That would be why you do this because the end goal or the the fruits as it were of Creating a portrait of Putin that is like I'm gonna call journalism spying totally I believe that I have the right to take Ukraine and it's something in the 900s onward is the rationalization for that Yeah, that does not work and it runs counter to The established sort of positions no in this right wing space. Like I said, this is making me

swazy. This is absolutely 100% a like when you listen to this your red dawn should get lit up and you should go like America. Like this is again one of the few jingoistic things that I will allow myself and this is the only situation where it's useful. But it's so weird. It is weird. When you reflect on it, it, it. I don't understand it. It can't be a win, except for, you know, obviously, a lot of people watched it. Sure. It drove a lot of traffic in the immediate.

Good. Well, certainly, you know, on some level, if you, if you are recognizing that a lot of the content is going to be ignored by people, sure, and maybe people just passively watch it or whatever, it does raise your stature a bit, if you're Tucker, because you're hanging around. You interview Putin. You're interviewing Ketterd and the guy who claims he had sex with Obama. And then you jump to Putin. Right. Big difference. Yeah. And that's not to say that he hasn't had big guests in the past, but this isn't kind of a different echelon

Nuclear weapons unilaterally level guest. Yeah, so that does raise your stature in some sense But it only the actual product of it if you mean this interview to be taken seriously It should facilitate like a pivot has it should facilitate like a pivot. Has there been? It should facilitate like a changing of position of like, hey, this guy, maybe we had his intentions wrong all the time about Ukraine. Maybe we should reconsider some of these other things that we've been selling you. Totally.

But it's not doing that, I don't think. Okay, have you seen any reaction to it? Not a ton. So I've, so you texted me leaving Alex aside. Sure. Sure. Sure. Well, yeah, I mean, obviously, I haven't seen that response either. But leaving. No, you texted me. Like, did you see any of this interview?

Yeah. And we both had a weird little moment where we're like, no, and that seems crazy. Yeah, because oftentimes, you know, there'll be something that happens. And we we knew that we were going to cover this in advance when it was announced. And so a lot of times you can't avoid big news. It is literally Super Bowl Sunday. Yeah. Today. I forgot about that. Yeah, I know me too. We were listening to the radio. My wife dropped me off. So, um, do you remember the fucking post Super Bowl Obama interviews? Where it was like, or was it the Super Bowl halftime thing? Or was it the pre?

I don't remember. But it was like the biggest thing on the planet. Was the Super Bowl, and that's why Obama was right next to it, you know? It's that kind of thing. Tucker tried to scoop the Super Bowl. And this is supposed to be of that stature. Yeah, it doesn't it doesn't feel like the response has has Lived up to it. Yeah, and that's probably a testament to the content of it being it really sucks They shit they fucking shit the bed

man, I don't I think what's fascinating what what's amazing about this is I don't think at any point in my life I would ever have expected something like this to happen. Do you know what I mean? Sort of. Like it doesn't matter what, you know, if my understanding of the geopolitical world, even at younger ages, still would have been like, well, they're not going to do that.

Right? Then add on top of that, they're going to do that potentially dangerous thing and then fail so spectacularly, the world kind of ignores it. Well, that's that's the that's what is that's the part that I'm wrestling with is like We see this as a failure on both sides because I don't think either comes out looking better But like that's where we have to reassess like have we miss? Assumed what the goal is or like what what the terms of failure are? I don't know I don't think that's the case. I think it's possible that we're wrong

in terms of what they thought they were trying to get. But if they were trying to get something different from what we would have been trying to get, then they were wrong about what they're trying to get. Do you know what I mean? Like there's really only value. There's only one valuable thing out of this. And that is the right wing loving Putin enough to...

And I think based on a lot of the behaviors that you see displayed by Tucker throughout the interview, it seems like that is still his intention totally of trying to get down that road. Yeah. And that road is not being gone down by Putin. Amazing. Which maybe he had the strategic difference of opinion or whatever. I don't know, but this was very weird. This was very weird. And I don't know, there's a part of me that feels like I kind of regret covering it almost

because it is kind of like a wet blanket or something. But at the same time, it's gonna be such a piece of lore and stuff with Alex and and and info wars that it's it's something that is not really avoidable. Here's why one. I think I kind of I, I don't regret at all. I'm not maybe regret was a strong. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's not quite the word.

I think there's two things that make this actually very, very good. One, this is so weird. It's very weird, but uniquely weird in a weird that I don't know if I've ever experienced before. Uh, and two, this is ripe for the type of wet cement. This is the type of interview because it's a dud, because people aren't going to pay attention to it. In six months, do you remember when Tucker interviewed Putin

and Putin said all the things that you did want to hear him say? Right, there could be. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Like, that is the type of thing where I think we are uniquely situated to fight against this specific case. It may be.

Yeah, that's an interesting perspective. Because none of these fucking bloggers, the Guardian doesn't have the ability to do that shit. Well, a lot of them do a fair amount of good fact checking and such. They do a good job at what they can do. Right, yeah. They can't swear and have you call for Putin to die.

They really can't, which I do think is odd. You could back in the forties you could be like fucking kill Hitler. Oh, so we come to the end of this and well your mileage may vary. It is what it is. But we'll be back for another episode. But until then we have a website and do we do it's all right.com. Yep. We're also on blue sky. We are on blue sky. It's knowledge right yet We'll be back. But until then I'm Neo Leo DZX Clark Yeah, I was thinking about trying to do the theme from Tetris, but I don't know if that's in poor taste

Is it I don't know. I don't think it is no. I love Tetris. You do. Yeah, you're really good at it You can beat anybody fucking creepy. Yeah, I take all commerce bring it on. It's not creepy. It's impressive I don't know why I said creepy I think cuz it's supposed to be avoiding a compliment to you I will take on everybody at the X-ray arcade everyone. I'll beat you all at Tetris. I'm not gonna do that I'm not gonna do it. No, probably not And now here comes the sex robots Andy and Kansas you're on the air. Thanks for holding And now here comes the sex robots Andy and Kansas you're on the air. Thanks for holding

So Alex I'm a first-time caller. I'm a huge fan. I love your work. I love you