L&D In Action: Winning Strategies from Learning Leaders - Authentic Leadership: Staying Ahead of the Curve with Self-knowledge

Episode Date: May 23, 2023

In this episode of L&D in Action, we’re joined by leadership development expert Bill Treasurer. Bill describes his consultancy, Giant Leap Consulting, as a courage-building company dedicated to maximizing performance emphasizing self-awareness among leaders. From two decades of coaching and consulting, Bill shares his insight as to how companies can foster better relationships among their employees, centered around embracing one’s authentic social and human self.

You're listening to L&D in Action, winning strategies from learning leaders. This podcast, presented by GetAbstract, brings together the brightest minds in learning and development to discuss the best strategies for fostering employee engagement, maximizing potential, and building a culture of learning in your organization. With an eye on the future and a preference for the practical, we address the most important developments in edtech, leadership strategy and workflow learning. Let's dive in. Tyler Laye Hello, and welcome to L&D in Action. I'm your host,

Tyler Laye. And today I'm speaking with Bill Treasurer. Bill is a consultant, author and keynote speaker. He's the founder of Giant Leap Consulting, and his most recent book is Leadership, Two Words at a Time. Bill, thanks so much for joining me today. Tyler, it's great to be here, and I look forward to spending time with you and the good friends at Get Abstract. Great, thank you so much.

Why don't we kick things off, give our audience a quick background as to who you are, what you've done, and what you're up to now. So for the last 20 years, I've been the founder of Giant Leap Consulting. We're a courage building company that helps people drive out fear and act with courage so they can get superior performance. I do that by as a practitioner of leadership development. We design, develop and deliver comprehensive leadership programs. And we work day in, day out. We don't just stand from

the day and tell people in large audiences what they should do. But we're right there in the innards of the company, working side by side and partnering with leaders to develop them to be really successful. And you have a pretty extensive resume, a very impressive resume. You've worked at Accenture in the past as well. I'd love to hear a little bit more about that background and the different positions you've held. Yeah. So, you know, now that I'm 60, I've got a little bit of, you know, time with some other things that I've done and I don't want to bore your listeners with it, but I do, you know, if I rewind my career, I spent six years at Accenture, one of the world's largest management consulting companies. I was a manager there.

And for the last two years that I was there, I was their first full-time internal executive coach. I still do executive coaching today. In any given month, I'm coaching at least 25 different people. I coached two people this morning before today's session, in addition to the leadership workshops. Before that, I worked with a company called Executive Adventure doing outdoor experiential team building programs. I facilitated 300 different team building programs for major companies that you've definitely heard of. Before that, with a small boutique consulting company called High Performing Systems. It's still around. They specialize in leadership development as well.

They've got a great guy that works there, a good friend of mine, Dr. Henry L. Thompson. He's a former Vietnam vet, and he's written a book called The Stress Effect, and he looks at leadership extremists leading under extreme situations. And then before that, I was a member of the U.S. high diving team, and I used to dive off of 100-foot towers into small pools for a living, traveling at speeds in excess of 50 miles an hour before hitting a small pool that was only 10 feet deep. And that became the metaphor for the business that I run today because my business now is called Giant Leap Consulting. And we help people and organizations take whatever giant leaps that they might be facing. And it all

involves courage. That was the story I was looking for right there, the origin of giant leap. I love that so much. It is every one of my nightmares in one, heights, deep water, not a big fan, but greatly appreciate that you've brought that into your current career.

And also congratulations on 20 years with giant leap. That's a huge achievement. So great job. Yeah, thank you. We're into the 21st year now. We celebrated 20 years with Giant Leap. That's a huge achievement. So great job. Yeah, thank you. We're into the 21st year now. We celebrated 20 years. And when I took the Giant Leap myself and left Accenture, they became my first client, actually, after I started my business, which was fantastic. And I'm really thankful. I've got to pinch myself that I get to do what I get to do these days, which are to work side by side with leaders.

And they've taught me so much about leadership. I know that you're familiar with my new book, Leadership Two Words at a Time. And I look at it like it's literally brought to you by thousands of leaders that I've been privileged to be able to learn from. And I capture what I learned from them and I put it in the book to help any new leaders that might be moving into the role and are trying to figure their way out without a playbook. We're going to talk about all kinds of leadership today. I obviously want to focus on new leadership, and we're going to pull some things from that book, of course. We will talk a little bit about older incumbent leadership as

well, but I want to kick things off with a long intro to a quick question, if you will. The current paradigm of leadership development, if you will. So the current paradigm of leadership development, if you will, the sort of history of what we think of as leadership education and executive coaching and all of that, that was developed sort of in the latter half of the 20th century through the 60s. The 40s to the 60s is kind of where the origins of that psychological movement started. And then we moved into a more, you know, robust system of actual executive coaching in like the 80s and 90s and that sort of thing. And this, of course, all predates all sorts of things that have taken place in the 21st century, you know, the innovations in tech, huge disruption. And now, of course, we have the pandemic and coronavirus.

And so, so many things have changed. You have pretty extensive experience through a lot of these, through that paradigm that I'm talking about, but now what we're seeing now. And my question is ultimately, what is the one piece of advice to kick things off that you would give to new leaders knowing that they are entering a world of potentially sort of undiscovered leadership,

best practices, potential, and the new paradigm, if you will? So it's a good question. The piece of it that, you know, I connect to is that it's been evolving. Leadership has been evolving and the practice of leadership development has been evolving since I got into it, since I was in graduate school before I started my own work, right? And it continues to, and you're right, the pandemic was a big moment and it was a real sort of shift in the dynamic of work in general and how we work. And it doesn't stop evolving. I mean, the latest is artificial intelligence and everybody's now playing around with chat GPT and questioning

their own relevancy. So the need to be contemporary is important and that we've got to stay, keep our fingers on the pulse of what is happening right in front of us today and be aware of that. That said, I do think that there's parts of leadership and leadership development that will stay resilient regardless of what the change is going on. And, you know, one of the first chapter in the book, really, is the first sort of principle of leadership is know thyself. And to have self-knowledge about who am I in this changing, crazy world and who do I need to be in this changing world? who do I need to be in this changing world? And what can I bring that is my unique talents and gifts and passion into this place to be able to help make it better and leave my mark? What is my own motivation for wanting to be in a leadership role? What are the strengths that I bring that I

can put into a leadership role? What are the overuse of the strengths that I have that might start to cast a shadow that I need to work on and pair back so they don't do damage as I'm leading others. So I think the need for self-knowledge and self-awareness and self-evaluation and self-care don't change. Those things, regardless of what crazy nuance, new big thing and newfangledness in front of you, you got to know yourself pretty dang well so that you don't do damage when you're in a leadership role and so that you enjoy leading too, because leadership can be a burden. But if you know what you're good at and know where you're not so good and you need to supplement yourself with other people who have goodness in those areas, you'll do a lot better. So self-knowledge doesn't stop.

That would be my first recommendation to any new leader. One of my favorite moments from the book is that you say you gain the most trust when people see the real you as the same as leader you. So, you know, you are yourself in that leadership position. I think this is a big challenge for a lot of people. I think, you know, going into a leadership position, now you have others that report to you and, you know, are, you know, their performance comes down to you. What they do is, you know, your responsibility and that kind of changes who you and, you know, their performance comes down to you. What they do is, you know, your responsibility and that kind of changes who you are. You know, you're no longer just worrying about yourself and the work that you put out. It's, you know, in a way, I shouldn't say this because I don't, you know, have children of my own, but now you have dependents, you know,

that sort of thing. You have others that you are in some way responsible for. So how do you advise that people maintain that level of self-awareness when all of a sudden, as you say in the book, a lot of new leaders are just worried about getting through the week now that they have folks under them and they're kind of putting up fires and problem solving? Yeah, it's very common early on when you move into a leadership role. And even if you don't move into a leadership role, it's very common early on in your career, sometimes late stage in your career, to have self-consciousness about how am I being received and what are the people think of me and

my performance. And, you know, we have this word leader, right? The quote unquote role of leader. And so we start portraying something. Some level of portraying the role of leader is normal. But when we're so adhesed to the portrayal that we lose sight of who we actually authentically are as a leader, we may start to come off as fake or feeling like we have to have all the answers to portray that I have all the answers. And that can be dangerous to your leadership. But this idea of authenticity, I remember one time that my kids, speaking of children, my own children would say, that's business dad. And I'm like, what do you mean that's business dad?

Oh, dad, when you're on the phone, we can totally tell you're on a business call because you move from like, hey, I'm your dad to, hello, my name is Bill Treasurer. And I got it, right? Like they were right. There was business dad and there was dad dad. And I think you get more comfortable as the years go on and your journey of leadership presents itself. And as you keep moving through your journey, I think that one more comfortable as the years go on and your journey of leadership presents itself. And as you keep moving through your journey, I think that one of the most high compliments you can pay any individual, particularly a leader, is they're comfortable in their own skin.

They know who they are and they don't have to put a portrayal on for you anymore because they are comfortable with who they are. with who they are. And this is good when you're in a leadership role. Can you do that for others and foster the authenticity for them so that they don't have to put a portrayal on for you, but be who they really are authentically in the workplace? Because you're much more likely to have positive energy when you're not having to pretend to be somebody that you're not. That sort of thing takes time though, right? I mean, you can't walk into a place where you know no one and just immediately sort of present yourself as you are. I think there's always a sort of social acclimation period and it's going to take time to learn how, you know, the idiosyncrasies, as you say, of your reports and the people that you work around to really be

able to present yourself authentically, I would think. However, a point that you make in the book is that plenty of people have different backgrounds coming into leadership roles. Plenty of people were brought up with plenty of wealth and access and probably traits that allow them to sort of embrace that more quickly. So what do you say? Is there always a modicum of taking time and embracing your sort of leader authentic self? are there ways that you can expedite that? Does it really just come back to your background and that is sort of the rate at which you can pick this sort of approach to leadership up? Right. And also, how authentic?

I'm going to make a confession right now to your listeners. Sometimes if I'm at home and I'm eating dinner by myself at the dinner table, maybe looking at my phone while I'm doing it, it sometimes happens I might not eat with my mouth fully closed for every bite and I will get called on it from my family members. But when I'm at a business lunch, I am. I don't need to let it all hang out with my authentic self. You don't want to see me eating with my mouth open when we're having a business lunch. Business build makes sense in that environment. To your point, as a leader, it is a journey, right? That we get comfortable in our own skin with who we are. And I do think that for a person, any person, a place to start is where do I get positive energy? Like what fills

me up in terms of the interest that I have, right? Do I love working with numbers? And boy, I can lose track of time because when I'm working in the numbers, man, I'm in my zone and it feels like a passion thing for me. Or the opposite, man, when I'm in the numbers thing, it is drudgery for me and that is slow time. How does time move, fast or slow, during which tasks that you're doing? Because when it moves fast, generally, that's the stuff you have the creative engagement with, the flow with. It's where your passion generally is. Does time move fast or slow? And that will start to point you in the direction of the stuff that you probably should be trying

to figure out how you can do more of that stuff, because it doesn't feel burdensome. It doesn't feel laborious. All of us have to do some labor. That's why it's called work. But if we can do work that energizes us versus zaps our energy, because there's something authentic about that. That's our inner guide telling us it's like a registry, like a Geiger counter, kind of like, that's the stuff I need to be doing more of right there. But it does take time to figure that out. Yeah. So how can organizations support that systematically? Because you have a job to do, you know, you have a job description tasks that you got to do every day.

You've got OKRs, KPIs, goals, whatever it is, you got to help the company make money. And sometimes that limits what you're really capable of focusing on and doing. So do you think that organizations as a whole are responsible for enabling their employees and especially their leaders to find these times of greatest focus? I do think that if an organization wants to extract the most value of any person that they have working for them in terms of their talents, gifts, contribution, the value that they can add, that on the one hand, yes, you've got to give the person on the income when they're coming in the job

description. Here's the job that we need you to do. And hopefully there's a good fit between this person's compatibility of their skills and competencies and the job that you want to have done. But part of that conversation needs to be what additional things would you like to be involved with? How do you see yourself adding the maximum value here? It can't just be a one-way conversation, company to employee. It needs to be a two-way conversation, not that we're doing this job to you, we're doing this job with you. How do you think you can best contribute to this role? Because that's where the person can add their strength, their passion and such. And if they don't, that person's not going to have as much energy from the job. They're probably going to flatline in the job. So that would be the systematic way is when they're being recruited, figure out the right fit in the some 23 years or 24 years since I worked with the person.

But I remember when I moved into that role, he said, Bill, here's the things that this role requires. And here's kind of like the table stakes of this role. But I want you to come back to me two days from now, and I want you to have shaped this role in a way that you think will take the most energy from you, that will be able to capitalize on the things that I don't even know that you're interested in? How would you want it? And that way, I brought it back to him with new definition. And then I'm sure it could have been a negotiation process. If it was a big gap, it wasn't a big gap. But now I was putting my thumbprints on my own role instead of having to live in the template of a role. And so I think that that's one way that an organization can systematically get the energy, get the right energy out of an individual working

in the company. Yeah. Is it as simple as a conversation like that, do you think? Is it as simple as one's boss or leaders just asking their employees and their individual contributors, you know, what else do you think you should be doing here? Or should there be another level of guidance? Especially right now, you already brought up chat GPT and AI, you know, the general sort of concern, you know, is my job going to exist next year in five years? Am I going to be, you know, taken by a robot? What's going to happen here? Do organizations, you know, do they have a greater responsibility to offer pathways and that sort of thing? I mean, this is very common at large organizations now we're in learning and development platforms, they kind of give the AI is actually doing this now is what I've heard.

But, you know, they have a system that determines based on your skill set and your current role. Here are maybe the potential branches and pathways that you could go into. And, you know, here's how you could take that on. Here's the steps that you would need there. So do you agree that this is sort of like a conversational thing between leaders and reports as well as maybe, you know, some sort of setting up of access to resources and maybe suggesting those directions and spaces one can put one's energy? and feeling like I'm in a box, I'm pigeonholed, and what next for me? But I don't want to make any noise because, well, I am getting a paycheck, and now I don't really have a vocation. I've got, you know, a job. And so I think it's important for an organization, particularly a leader of people, to be, you know, taking that little flashlight and saying, here's some career path options, right? And here's where it can go. And what do you think about that option there? And this is

also an option. So I do think that the conversation is important. The one-on-one conversation between boss and employee leader and person working for the leader is always critical and important. But I think if there are ways that organizations can make it systematized, such as there are plenty of learning management systems now where you set your goal, and then you can look at the competencies required at the next level, or look at the competencies required of a job, assess what your gap is, figure out the training that you need to close the gap. I mean, there are certainly systems that can support that and should, right? Because I think that conversation is great with your bosses bosses and that open dialogue is great, but talk is cheap. There also has to be, you've got to take conceptual and make it concrete, and it should be put into some sort of a leadership development plan or individual development plan on IDP of some sort so that the person not just has a career path, but is actually working and moving down that career path towards whatever next is. Doesn't always have to be upwards.

It can be the assumption of new skills, new responsibilities, adding more value, being involved in other ways. Doesn't always have to be up, but we should always be moving forward. I want to go back to business dad real quick. I love that so much. Yes, sure, Tyler.

Let me put my business dad head on. Summon business father. So I've been thinking about this a lot, where historically work was a very specific thing, especially when we were, you know, primarily working from offices. You know, you wake up, you do your morning routine, you commute to an office, you go to your office, you know, you dress a certain way, you show up to the office and you're in a workspace, you're in a professional space. Now, you know, plenty of people are still doing that, of course, but so many people, myself included, and I think you much of the time as well, are working from

home. I want to understand the psychological impact of this. And I know it's being studied. There's been some early studies and that sort of thing. But from you, a leadership coach, I'd love to hear what your take on it is, because, you know, we're no longer in the space of work. We're no longer setting ourselves into that space where everybody around us exists to contribute to that mission of that company and to achieve something. Now, you know, I'm doing that from my home and many people are doing that from their homes where the things around them physically are their family and just, you know, the familial and life components of what they do as opposed to the work. So there's simultaneously, you know, a different way of approaching the work and how you set yourself up and you kind of, you know, set up your space, but

you're not in that work frame. You're not in that office frame that, you know, business suit directly in front of people frame anymore. And psychologically, I think that makes it a lot harder, or maybe it makes it easier, I'm not sure, to adopt that, you know, authentic self, because you're already changing your home and your space to reflect something that it historically was not, or many of us are at least. So to me, this is really interesting for both new leaders and for old leaders, because old leaders all of a sudden are, you know, dealing with, oh, man, I have to totally change everything that I'm used to. But new leaders might be more used to this sort of thing because, you know, maybe they grew up more with, you know, digital interaction.

They were, you know, using apps and tools and video games that allowed them to communicate virtually much more consistently. And maybe they were doing Zoom calls more than that. So I'm not sure who this is more difficult for. But, you know, I'm curious, what is your take on sort of the psychological impact of no longer being in the business space, if you will? Yeah, I think that we're figuring it out. And I think, I don't know if it's a pendulum or just change and such, but, you know, certainly COVID, you know, changed things in terms of the location of people. I will have to say that I,

you know, I've got at least five clients that are in construction and you still have to pour concrete. You can't do that virtually. Having said that, I do have some executives in those companies that had to work through from home in the pandemic. And people that used to be the old measure was BIS, butts in seats. If I can see you in the seat, I know you're working, right? Well, now those butts were working from home and they were, the bosses were part of the butts. And they realized that, hey, you know, I guess people actually do work when I'm not work watching them, right? Which is a big shift in management philosophy. I think, now I,

on the other hand, unlike my construction clients for for the 21 now moving into the 21st year that I've had my business, have always had the business from home. And the key is, so I'm going to just show you real time right here. Your viewers will be able to see, is that I have an office space. This office space is detached from my house. So this is in my backyard. It's got two chairs where people can come visit me if need be. It's got my desk right here. I've got some artwork that I look at every day that I call American Chaos. And I got a loft up there. Hey, if I want to take a nap, I can even take a

nap. Don't tell. Don't tell my clients. But every now and then, I got to take a nap. But the point is that wherever and however you do your work, you do need a place to go. And if going means it's just closing the door, like for many years, it was in the house, my space where I went to, but it was near the washing machine. And I'd be talking to my clients and I'd hear the vacuum going and I'd hear a washing machine kind of stuff. And then we built this outside out office. Now, I'm not saying that your listeners necessarily want to do that or can do that. But I am saying that even if you're working from home in the kitchen, right, you need a partition, you need

some way of, it's still your authentic self when you move into work self. It's just a different dimension of self. Today, out of respect for you, out of respect for your listeners, you know, I put on my jacket. That is, I don't wear my jacket, like I'm gonna take it off after, but it is part of the role of who I am in my work self, but it's a different dimension of self. So I do think that it helps to have the focused place where you can work in an undistracted way

that pivots you from self-self to work-self while still retaining the soul of your self-self and integrating those two lives. So I don't know that I gave a definitive answer, but I do think having a place to go is important and a place to get away from. This is true too. So even if you are now this virtual thing, the other virtual thing in terms of the authenticity, you know, for a little while, I mean, in the beginning of COVID, just like so many other people, I grew my Appalachian Viking beard. A lot of men, like my hair got long, my beard got like, and then, you know, and still I'll see the cat go in front of the Zoom screen, right? Just yesterday I was on a call and a woman's little kid was there. We all had to say hello to the kid.

It's just that is what it is now. So we are integrating work self and self self. I also think there's a desire to get back. So it used to be that we were, a lot of people were like showing up with T-shirts with stains on them. I think that we're starting to sort of getting back to the professional days. But we don't want to go back to 2019, where we were so adhesed to our role as business bill that we lost sight of what matters in life. In that sense, do you think maybe it's actually made it a little bit easier for some people since we get to be in our own personal space,

as much as we can maintain that personal space, we can bring our authentic selves. Do you think that has happened for some people? Absolutely. And I think too, that because right now, at least, it's still a very competitive landscape in terms of talent, that companies are like, okay, you know, it seems to be what people are wanting. They're wanting to work more hybrid. They're wanting to have more flexibility. They're wanting to be their authentic self. And we as companies need to meet that need if we want to have a talented workforce because they're going to places that are giving them that stuff. So yeah, I think that the workforce and what's needed from an individual in the workforce has changed. And I think that some of that change is going to be around for a long time. And I think that some of that change is going to be around for a long time. One of the two words in the first part of your book, the leading yourself, self-mastery, I try to ask everybody that I interview about mastery in some sense, because that's what we're talking about here, learning, becoming the best that you can be, et cetera.

Mastery is hard to find time for, I think, especially when, as you say in the book, you know, new leaders are often looking to get through the week. Maybe incumbent leaders have a little bit more time, but I think it's very, very important that in that phase of integrating yourself into becoming a leader, you know, that first early phase, you really can't lose sight of that mastery. While you're learning to become, you know, your authentic self in front of people, maybe you're learning how to do this, you know, be remote, but also be a leader, figure out all the nuances. As you just said, we're still figuring this stuff out. I think it's important to maintain that mastery still should be your goal in that sense. And that's not just as a leader,

but it's also as whatever it is that your, you know, skillset is outside of leadership. So how can we make time for that? Yeah, so mastery is important. I think back as you're speaking to the great Stephen Covey, right? Dr. Stephen Covey, God rest his soul. One of the things that he talked about in the Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, that monumental, important business book,

talks about sharpening the saw, right? Like you gotta make time as part of a professional discipline, as part of a professional discipline, as part of a professional practice. We don't get to a place of graduation where like, I know everything there is to know that my professional discipline, I don't have to work on myself at all anymore. You never encounter people like that? You never get an executive who just like doesn't want anything to do with you coaching them? I will neither confirm nor deny.

want anything to do with you coaching them? I will neither confirm nor deny. Yeah. And this is true of myself. I'm part of an association and each year we have an annual business retreat. I just came back from it. We were there two weeks ago where we're hearing provocative new stuff that's on the forefront of leadership development that we have to be aware of is coming down the pike. We're in small groups. We're giving each other feedback. And some of it's not, you know, some of it stings a little bit as a way to get better or make sure that we're in small groups, we're giving each other feedback. And some of it's not, you know, some of it stings a little bit as a way to get better or make sure that we're not getting complacent. Nobody can afford to get complacent in today's talent-driven market. That part of personal mastery is your own development.

A lot of people like just wait for the company to develop. Well, the company didn't give me any training or the company's not putting me through a leadership program. I wish they would. But if they aren't, that doesn't absolve you from the responsibility to develop yourself. Be the captain of your own development ship, right? So development's one. But the other is the personal discipline around the use of your time. It's so basic, and yet so many people miss it, including some senior executives. A small example is a lot of people that are fortunate enough to have an executive assistant.

Their executive assistant books their time, boom, boom, boom, meeting after meeting, and there's no space in between. That is a simple fix. It's simply telling your EA, look, I need this meeting you've got over at three. From now on, don't start the next one until 3.15. I need 15 minutes to get my head in the game for the next thing. So the use of your time, and that's if you're lucky to have an executive assistant, but if you don't, you have to make sure that you are using your time judiciously, including factoring in your own needs. It's amazing how people will, I used to do this all the time, Tyler, when I was at Accenture. Suddenly it'd be three o'clock in the afternoon and I'm like, oh crap, I didn't eat. I forgot to eat. Because I was like, boom, boom, boom, meeting after meeting. So the use of your own time is an important one. And here, maybe this is old school. You know, I'm a old fuddy dud. And maybe we can do it on our phones now. But look, I still do a to do list, right? I still do it. I got mine. It's out of reach, but it's over there. It's physical. Yeah. It's not hard, right? But it does take this idea of discipline, discipline and focus, because the

world of work can be insane. And you don't have to bring the insanity to an already insane place. You've got to make sure that you are doing your level best to do your level best. And that is to master discipline, your priorities, master your goals, master your time, master the things that, you know, we've been talking about and who you are and your own development, right? That becomes another one to master. And master your emotions, which is, you know, a little bit different, right? But to not let your emotions, whether they be intimidation and fear or anxiety about the thing I got to get done or my anger at that client or to, that's a big part of mastery is self-mastery over, over your own emotional condition. I want to go back to a new character that we just discovered really quickly. A whiny

voice bill is what we'll call this one. So my company isn't giving me access to training programs or something like that. So this is an interesting question. The conference board, which you may or may not be familiar with, they do workplace, you know, surveys on learning and that sort of thing. I believe it's their most recent one. I think it was the end of last year. But there was a disparity between leaders and individual

contributors as to how accessible those two categories believed training resources were, how effective and accessible, I believe. I don't have the percentages in front of me, but I promise you there was a little bit of a disparity. Leaders thought, you know, there was enough. There was enough educational resources and they were accessible and they were good. Whereas individual contributors were, you know, fewer people agreed. A smaller percentage of individual contributors believed that. And at the end of the day, 96% of respondents to the survey

agreed that learning and development in some form is absolutely critical to what they do. And that was a point of concern for me is if leaders, you know, aren't quite on board with their folks, what is being done there? And, you know, that could very well be that leaders are just more likely to do what you're describing, which is kind of, you know, go out on your own and seek education or seek some sort of level of development and seek mastery in that sense. You know, that is how leaders get made is because they take a little bit of initiative there. That is how leaders get made is because they take a little bit of initiative there. But at the same time, most people that also responded to that survey said that they had gone out and saw additional resources. You know, they'd use YouTube, they'd use some sort of educational platform to do that. So I think it was around 60 to 65% that had said that they had done that.

So to me, there's a little bit of a disparity. Can we do more to support our folks? Even though I agree, there's always, you know, you can always go out, you can always figure things out yourself. As we talked earlier, career pathing, helping people in that sense is very important. Can we still do more? Can we do more to give people resources to encourage them to achieve self-mastery? Totally. The reality of needing to take hold of your own career development and doing more for our people are not incompatible ideas. The idea that companies absolutely, look, I want more companies to invest in their people. If you don't have a training program or some clients will call me and they're like, we want to dramatically change our culture.

We need to have cultural transformation here. Can you come in and do a half-day session? I'm not going to change your culture in a half, you know? So it's like they say they want these big things, but you've got to invest in these big things. And that means investing in your people and developing bench strength. It doesn't just happen by osmosis, right? Like it takes true dollars and cents investment. right? Like it takes true dollars and cents investment. Now you and I know that that investment pays off in the, you know, even in the short run, it will with the capabilities

and confidence of the people that you are now investing in. That said, sure, there's plenty of things that companies can do. And some of them don't cost a lot, right? It's ensuring that those one-on-one conversations are actually happening and tracking that they're happening to make sure, because leaders get their own priorities and they get fixated on the results that they're happening to make sure because leaders get their own priorities and they get fixated on the results that they want and the next important meeting that they've got to run off to and sometimes neglect that one-on-one conversation where a lot of development happens like right there. And when a leader brings in a person into a client situation that might be delicate, but they didn't have access to until the leader created the access, for example. Then you get to shadow the leader and see how they respond with the client

and customer instead of locking them out because, well, I don't want that person to make a mistake in front of the customer, so I'm going to keep them out of the room. That's another voice. That's the arrogant leader who just doesn't want to bring the other guy in the room. Yeah. So, yes, we can be doing more. And I do go, I rewind back a little bit to, though there is a gap between what the individual contributor experiences and what leaders experience, my encouragement to the individual contributor.

Like a few years ago, there were some people that I've worked with that are a few steps out in front of me with their businesses. And I got in touch with them because I was going to be in their hometown. And I reached out to them individually and asked, hey, could I have lunch with one guy? And could I have breakfast with the other guy separately?

And I did. I did that for me out of maybe it's selfishness, but it's also development. Learning from people who've got the thing that I want that I don't yet have. And it cost me a little bit, but I was going to be in that town anyway, right? The company didn't have to do that for me. I did it for myself. So it is a blend of both. But yes, companies need to, you know, smart companies will invest in their people that way. The reason I thought about this, actually, you know, just the disconnect between leaders and

individual contributors there, is because I was thinking about, I think it's in the second section of your book, but you leading others, we're talking about ego, because when you're a leader, you're a leader, you're a leader. You're leading others and you have power there. You're in the position of leadership, you have power. And it can be hard for many people to avoid becoming egotistical and letting that get to your head. So what do you advise to folks that that's likely to be their reaction to getting a leadership position? How do they avoid that? Of course, it starts with self-awareness and all the things that you preach in the beginning of the book,

but what else do you advise? Yeah, so just be aware, new leader, that eventually in your leadership, people are going to start to, they'll start to do it as soon as you move into a leadership role, but as time goes on, even more so. They'll defer to your judgment. They won't make a decision until they get the north wind of what your decision is going to be. They'll defer to your judgment. They won't make a decision until they get the north wind of what your decision is going to be. They will let you interrupt them. They will let you come to the meeting late and not have to offer an excuse. They'll give you the better parking spot eventually, right? And you'll get to go to the really cool meetings because you're a leader. And you start to feel like, first of all, they're treating you like you're special.

And it's like believing your own marketing material. If you start to believe in that specialness and start to want that special treatment and expect that special treatment and treat the people who treat you special more special, there's danger to you. And it's super common. Leadership is really seductive. And it starts to inflate the ego. And the ego can be really damaging to yourself and to others. I wrote a book about this with

a Navy SEAL. It's called The Leadership Killer, Reclaiming Humility in an Age of Arrogance. And it's about the dangers of hubris. I mean, take any, if you read any newspaper, pretty much any week, there's going to be some decimation story about a leader who made a bonehead move, sometimes unethical, sometimes with sexual harassment, and they will have wiped out their whole ethical scaffolding. I'm telling you, if you rewind the story and ego is at play, it's their pride that got in the way. Leaders need to remember the first law of leadership. It's not about you. It's about the people you're leading. It's not about your special treatment, feeding your ego, pampering you,

tiptoeing around you because you're the temperamental boss. It's about, are you doing right by them? Are you fortifying them? Are you empowering them? Are you bringing them into situations that increase their capability? Are you motivating them? Are you creating opportunities for them? Are you helping them add more value to the company so it becomes more valuable? That's what leadership is about. It's not about you. I want to go up the ladder one step then, because a big part of many leadership roles is choosing leaders, choosing other leaders. Especially when you're an executive, you're often choosing managers and VPs and that sort of thing beneath you. I spoke with Ariel O'Farrell recently.

She's based out of Ireland and she, you know, also works with many leaders. She points out that lots of managers reach that position of management because they were really strong problem solvers. And in many cases, you know, being able to put out fires, being able to bring the right people together to just solve things so that workflow continues, so that bottlenecks are avoided, that actually ends up being what results in a lot of leadership decisions. You know, who gets to manage this team and who gets to lead this department. And, you know, theoretically, that's a good thing, problem solving, but it's not really what I think should be determining

leadership. And this, I think this just happens kind of by default because it's how we keep business flowing. I think that's kind of her point. So what do you think that leaders of leaders should be looking for in potential leaders? I guess that's my question to you. Well, one thing I could tell you after the pick is made to be watching for, and this is something Patrick Decker taught me. He's the president of a company called Xylem. They make products for water treatment plants. And he says, when I put a person into a new role, I watch, do they grow or do they swell? And swelling is where it starts to become about me and about, look, I get to go to the big meetings now and I get to, and it starts to become about the ego fortification, right? Or do they grow?

Meaning, do they get humble? Do they reach out to other leaders who are successful and figure out from them pitfalls to avoid and how they can best bring people along? So that's one thing to watch for after you've picked. Before, you're right, there is a tendency to pick people based on operational expertise. Wow, this person is really great at solving the operational tactical problem. And I think that as leaders, we have to be astute to that. That's got to be part of it by all means. But we also have to see in when they were solving problems, were they also solving problems that had a political dimension or a people dimension, or they had to navigate the terrain of different people and different stakeholders wanting different things? And how did they navigate that?

And how did they socialize idea and bring people with them as they were solutioning together? And as they solved the problem, was it just because they're really smart? Or they also figured out how to work the system in a positive way that brought people along with them towards that solution. That's the piece that I think would be critical. It's got to marry the operational piece. It's got to marry the strategic peaks. And it's got to marry the operational piece. It's got to marry the strategic peaks. And it's got to marry the people piece folded into that. So the final section of your book, the last several chapters cover leading work.

And this to me is the most important question is how do we lead good work? How do we create successful products and services in an industry categorized by all the things that have happened lately? So we have disruption, crazy tech innovations, chat GPT, AI, automation, the changing nature of a workforce. It's very complicated. There's a lot going on. So how do you lead the work? What do we do here to make sure that we are consistently innovating, using all of the resources that are available to us through automation, AI, efficiency, optimizing all of those things while also being a strong leader? Yeah.

You know, so I look at leadership as a function of three things. You got to lead yourself. You got to lead others. And you got to lead work. And if you do those, I call that leadership fitness, right? And we can't forget. And we lead ourself well. And we you do those, I call that leadership fitness, right? And we can't forget. And we lead ourself well and we lead others well. So we get stuff done. And that's the leading work bucket.

It's really what it's all about because it's the result bucket. You know, when you're a leader, yeah, you got to treat people well and you got to be practice self-knowledge and all that other good stuff and work on yourself, develop your people, mentor them, et cetera. Toward the end of making stuff happen, you as a leader through your agency and impact and influence need to make stuff happen. And it's got to be a track record of getting results, right? You got to make stuff happen enough that you make money and you make a profit so that the company survives. Right? No money, no mission. And so you've got to make that stuff happen. And that means you got to make hard calls too, in terms of the decisiveness.

that stuff happen. And that means you got to make hard calls too, in terms of the decisiveness. Sometimes you got to fire good people that are misfit, right? And you got to promote people that other people are going to be upset, got promoted. And sometimes you're going to have to bring in outsiders that didn't grow up in the company and it's going to be turbulent for a while. So you got to make hard calls as a leader. I think to your question, how do you stay in front of this crazy changing, every new thing coming down the road, is you got to be in the business for sure. But you have to periodically and in a disciplined way, spend time on the business as a senior executive team. So I have a company that I was with last night for dinner, that they happen to be in town doing a strategy session with another facilitator that I put them in touch with many years ago. And they come to Asheville, here where I live, for the sole purpose of getting away from their

own home environment where all the interruptions are and where you've got the thin walls where everybody can hear you talk. Instead, they go off site. They have to fly to a place. And they just spend time strategically thinking, forecasting what they need to be doing for the business, thinking forward. Let's remember, Tyler, that that idea of leadership, that little word on top of the big word, leadership, means to stay out in front. And if you're caught up in this whirlwind, twined up craziness every day, interrupted 24-7, you're never thinking on behalf of the business, which you need to do. So every now and then then in a judicious, careful, thoughtful, disciplined, focused way, you got to spend time on the business, not in the business. And that means getting off site and thinking strategically.

So that's one thing. And hey, if you're not yet in that senior executive level in the company, you can still do that as an individual leader. That might mean once a month, you come into work late. I'm sorry, I'm giving you permission. Have your boss yell at me. Go to a coffee house with a yellow pad and a pen or whatever your device is and think forward on behalf of the business. Where does my group need to be? Where does my team need to be?

Where do the goals need to be? Where do we need to be? Where does each individual need to be 12, 16, 18 months from now? And how can I help move us in that direction? That's thoughtful leadership. That's staying out in front. I love that. Leadership means staying out in front.

That's a great place to wrap, I think. So why don't we, before we finish up, let our audience know where they can learn more about you. Sure. Well, couragebuilding.com is a great way to get in touch. Hey, and also, you know, give a shout out to Get Abstract. You all have done abstracts of at least four of my books. Very grateful for that. And they can find me there, Get Abstract, or, you know, if you Google

me, something will come up for sure. All right. Sounds good, Bill. Well, thank you so much for joining me today. Everybody listening at home, thanks for joining us as well. And we'll catch you on the next episode. Cheers. You've been listening to L&D in Action, a show from Get Abstract. Subscribe to the show and your favorite podcast player to make sure you never miss an episode. And don't forget to give us a rating, leave a comment and share the episodes you love. Help us keep delivering the conversations that turn learning into action.