L&D In Action: Winning Strategies from Learning Leaders - Content for Modern Learners: What L&D Leaders can Learn from Creators on Social Media

Episode Date: June 13, 2023

In this episode of L&D in Action, we’re joined by Founder and CEO of Anchored Training, Vanessa Alzate. Vanessa is an instructional designer with a decade of experience in the L&D space, and has made it her mission to bridge the gap between the old-school and what’s new and next in learning solutions. Top of mind for her is how social media has turned into one of the most prolific platforms for education, and the many ways learning and development practitioners can learn from new educators and content creators.

You're listening to L&D in Action, winning strategies from learning leaders. This podcast, presented by GetAbstract, brings together the brightest minds in learning and development to discuss the best strategies for fostering employee engagement, maximizing potential, and building a culture of learning in your organization. With an eye on the future and a preference for the practical, we address the most important developments in edtech, leadership strategy, and workflow learning. Let's dive in. Hello and welcome to L&D in Action. I'm your host, Tyler Lay, and today I'm speaking with Vanessa Alzate. Vanessa is a speaker, consultant, and founder of Anchored Training. Vanessa, thank you so much of Anchored Training. Vanessa,

thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you so much for having me, Tyler. Let's just start off really quickly. Can you tell the audience how you got to where you are today and a little bit about your career in the past? Yeah, absolutely. So I got my start in learning and development back in 2009. I actually surprisingly found a job right after the economic crash of 2008 on Craigslist of all places. I found a CRM software company that was looking for a software trainer. And they said, which was this was very rare at the time, that you didn't need experience. We would absolutely train you.

And it was probably the only entry level job at the time that said I did not need three to five years of experience before getting the entry level job. I remember that nightmare. Yes. So it was something that I knew that training was something I was interested in. I had opportunities while I was in college to create educational programming through volunteer organizations I was working with. And it was just one of my keywords amongst, you know, HR, recruiting, all these other things. And so that is really where I got my start. And I thank the big G all the time that it was in working with pharmaceutical sales reps because it made software training so much more fun. What was so great was that in that experience, I was able to learn, you know, classroom training, you know, virtual webinar style training. This was also the beginning, you know, very early stages of e-learning that a ton

of people were doing it. Um, it was a storyline wasn't even out yet. Um, and so it was back then feels like the dark ages at this point and just all the different facets, documentation, logistics, really everything you needed to know that went into learning and development. And also the fast paced world of working with customers that were external, as opposed to internal customers. And so it really taught me a lot about business and relationship building and all of that. So that's where I got my start. I left there to work as an onboarding specialist. And I actually, that's when I started side hustling and freelancing on the side and doing e-learning development., that's when I started side hustling and freelancing on the side and doing e-learning development. And that's where I started doing articulate storyline software

training. I mean, over the years, you know, I was able to work full-time and my freelance business grew to a full-time and to a full-time place. And in 2016, I birthed my first daughter in one year and two weeks later, I birthed my second. And I looked at my husband and I said, I can't do these two things and have children that, you know, this tiny at the same time. Um, and that's where we decided that my freelance business was at a place way beyond a place where I could have supported us on our, you know, on my own. And so I went out in 2018 and the, you know, probably a month after I came back from maternity leave. Cause I tried to get, I gave it the old college try one more

month of doing both with the two kids. And I was like, I can't do it. Um, and since then I just anchor training wasn't supposed to be anything other than just me. It was just LLC, you know, to obviously do the right thing and protect, you know, you know, our personal and the business. you know, to obviously do the right thing and protect, you know, you know, our personal in the business. And then I accidentally became an agency owner and I haven't looked back ever since. And I've been obsessed with the field, obsessed with learning, obsessed with working with so many different organizations and thinking about how we could do learning differently that suits them. How many years now have you been doing full entrepreneurship then with your own business? We celebrated five years this January. Congratulations. That's huge. Thank you.

Very exciting. So just very briefly then, can you explain exactly what Anchored Training does, how you engage with your clients and sort of what kind of work you're doing? Yeah, absolutely. So we offer done for you and consulting services to organizations looking to revamp their learning and development. we really take an approach of keeping the learner at the center, but also the business at the center. So we're not the type of organization that will throw out an idea that really doesn't mesh well with what the business goals are, as well as what's going to fit into the solution for the business. And we like to be, you know, I tell everybody, we are the bridge between, you know, the old school and the new school, right, the digital and the analog world worlds in which I remember having the internet, but I also

have the internet. So it's a really fun organization to be able to bring up and really showcase the value of honoring things from the past and how things have always worked, but now bring that new school twist and how we can bring that into, you know, what people want to be utilizing now. I would say at the heart, maybe you're a bit of a content creator. You know, you are definitely developing a lot of courses or maybe not courses, but education plans, learning, and you work a lot with content. You post a lot on LinkedIn and you speak about content in particular. You actually, I don't know if you recently gave a talk or you are doing soon something on TikTok as a component of education.

And I do want to dive into that at some point as well. But I'm curious, what medium are you primarily working in? Is there one major medium? Is there something that you're focused on with your clients? Yeah, absolutely. So you're right. I've been doing the TikTok circuit for quite some time. The medium that a lot of our clients are working in, it ranges.

And I feel like there's an ebb and a flow. So for a long time, it was Articulate Storyline. Everybody and their mother wanted Articulate Storyline. But actually, recently, I've been seeing more of a need for Rise courses and having more of that ability to change as quickly as the business, you know, needs change. And we're doing a lot more video work. And so I think it's, while it's not always necessarily TikTok style videos, I'm definitely trying to influence in the way that we write and the way that we edit our videos to get that same sense and that same feel that you kind of sense from TikTok. Have you seen any trend in what media are most popular?

I mean, you just mentioned now that you're, you know, moving toward rise and now obviously more video, but in the many years that you've been doing this, has there been gradual development, you know, to more or less writing, to more or less video graphic, whatever it is, in-person, synchronous, anything like that? Yeah, I think that it changes depending on, you know, kind of the year and what's happening, right? So it's funny, I think that it changes depending on, you know, kind of the year and

what's happening, right? So it's funny, I have one customer that I work with that we, you know, obviously 2020 was, you know, everyone wanted to move over to e-learning. Then 2021 got slow because everyone wanted that virtual instructor-led training. We weren't gonna be able to get back in person, but we wanted to still build that connection. And then 2022, they started ramping back up with e-learning as things opened up again. So we see those ebbs and flows. I would say it's definitely moving faster than I've seen towards a lot more video, especially now that we have tools that help us make video faster. And it's always been the number one complaint is how expensive and how time consuming video can be. And it is.

But TikTok is really teaching us that you can take a different approach, a different style, different mindset when you're thinking about developing video where it doesn't have to take hours and hours and you need a whole bunch of actors. You know, a lot of TikTok videos, it's one person acting out multiple characters and you don't miss having different people to look at. Yeah, of course. This is the biggest change that I've noticed, honestly, on a grand cultural scale in the last few years is what media we consume most. And obviously TikTok has really just risen up the ranks. But, you know, things have gone from like network television to internet series and streaming. And now it feels like the biggest celebrities and the most, you know, famous people are coming from social media at this point. But what I've noticed as a film student, I studied film, I have a degree in film, and I am vaguely familiar with all that

goes on is that exactly what you just said. Now, creating quality video content is incredibly accessible. And it's obviously being done differently, as you're pointing out. You know, you have people that are acting loosey-goosey as multiple characters. I do that on the Get Abstract Instagram and TikTok. Check it out if you haven't. But it's more accessible. This sort of thing is more accessible. It's a totally different medium we're consuming on our phones. We're consuming vertical, that sort of thing. But is there then a greater demand in something as often rigid as training for large corporations for higher quality stuff at a lower cost or just a different style when it comes to video? Are you seeing that? You're going to get me a little spicy today.

I think that it's a yes and a no. So I think that unfortunately, learning development is always the last to change. So I think a lot of us are just getting on that gamification bandwagon. I'm like, gamification is out the window at this point. You know, like there's, there's definitely a place for it, but not in the same way, you know, an escape room isn't as, as intriguing anymore as it maybe was, you know, even a year or two ago. And I think that's where we get into challenges is not keeping up fast enough and taking a look at what's happening around us in the world around us and what we're consuming, you know, ourselves and thinking, is there something I can learn from this? And I do think that there is absolutely a place I've talked to so many customers and potential customers that say we want to integrate this style of learning. And I will tell you, things will always ebb and flow, mediums will change and people prefer one over the other. However, we have a much younger generation that they've only known

video, they've only known YouTube, they've only known Netflix, they've only known TikTok, Vine, all of these things. Video is not going away. And the longer that we resist it, the harder it is going to be for you to find talent in certain demographics because they're not going to engage with your organization, have that experience that they want. And there's going to be a lot of other organizations that I know will get on that bandwagon and make those changes. Obviously, education is massive on social media right now. I mean, you have TikTok influencers that are just shooting to the moon right now with fame because they're doing financial education, legal education, you know, just personal home-related lifestyle

education, all of that. How does this impact instructional design then? Are you doing things as simple as, you know, shortening things to accommodate for those attention spans of the coming generations? Is it anything more macro? I think it's not about, you know, I'll get people say, well, you can't shorten everything. And I'm like, yeah, fair. I also can't role play every single thing. So there's not, it's a matter of having a different, another tool in your arsenal,

you know, another tool, your toolbox. another tool in your arsenal, you know, another tool, your toolbox. And I think it gives me a different way of looking at how I'm creating content. And so I'm looking at, well, what's so great about TikTok? So we talk about, you know, an editing or training or learning content pillars, value chain, activate and collaborate. And so these three key pillars, we, whenever we're creating any sort of content, we're thinking of those things, you know, and when we're thinking of even when we are developing short form, well, why does that benefits training have to be a benefits training? Why can't we make them short TikTok style videos, and you get a series of them, and then we can create a channel for it, you know, and I think it's less about learning for the sake of imparting knowledge. Also,

we've taken an approach of what kind of learning development opportunities and experiences can we create to impact the entire employee experience so that they're getting what they need. And so they're able to find the information when they want to find it. That's the other thing about this upcoming generation. They're used to pulling information as opposed to pushing, being pushed to them. So having availability for that information to be able to be pulled whenever they need is going to become quite important. So it's just about a different lens of looking at everything. An important component of this to me is the synchronous versus asynchronous education. So I, you already took a little bit about how when we were, you know, coming back from the pandemic and, you know, the needs sort of switched up there a little bit. of companies, industries entirely where synchronous education is much more critical and you actually have to have, you know, classroom style or like active live, you know, virtual educators

or something like that. But then there's obviously ones where asynchronous probably makes more sense because that education needs to take place, you know, in the flow of work with workflow learning and it needs to be, it needs to be much, you know, more autonomous and that sort of thing. Are you seeing specific arenas where synchronous education is just currently in demand, will always be in demand? Are you seeing any trend changes there as well? Yeah, I'm seeing more organizations really looking at a blended approach, right? And especially when it comes to leadership development and professional development, and those are the arenas where I think you do need to have that connection, those connection points where it can all be asynchronous, as well as your

onboarding experience can be all asynchronous. I think a lot of organizations are going to try to do that and it's not going to end well. We already have people now that don't feel as connected because they don't have those touch points. What I find, and I think this rings true no matter at any time, it's less about the content matter, but more about what you're doing within that time. Right? So for me, I think that there is, you know, going back to that flipped classroom approach, I really love that.

The idea of giving the content asynchronously ahead of time, so you come prepared. And what we're going to do is we're going to workshop the information, right, we're going to do role plays, we're going to do scenarios, I'm going to really help to prepare you for what you need to do. You know, years ago, I worked for the Department of Human Services in Philadelphia, with their education arm. And, you. And these were social workers that they're used to instructor-led training. And so that's everything that they did. And so what we did was take some of their content and flip it, put it asynchronously, and then talk to them about, okay, so now that you have this time back, what can you do with it? They were so behind on creating that 2.0 training or, you know,

the 201, the 301s, the stuff that their people actually needed because they were so busy in the classroom. So it's about for me, you know, really taking the time to think of the best content where you all can work together and also thinking about what is the experiences that you could have together. That's not necessarily in a classroom with the facilitator, right? So we worked with an organization to do a professional development cohort training for Latino professionals. And what we did was we had Gafacito partners, you know, so we would pair them up and they

would change every, you know, few sessions and they would meet up outside of the classroom and they would connect to help build some of their social capital to learn more about what's working with each other, you know, and learn more about others. And I think even those sorts of experiences are needed. So it's about being more intentional and thinking of the bigger picture. I think often we can think of the one content, that one piece, but if you take a step back and you look at the entire picture, you can create a plan that mixes both and it's utilized appropriately to maximize the learning. Autonomy and democracy are two words that get floated around a lot in conversations in the L&D world that I've seen the importance of allowing people to choose their own path to an extent and also to, you know, learn what it makes sense for them.

How does that ultimately impact instructional design then? Because you want people to do as you're saying here, which is be intentional and you want that intentionality and, you know, for them to seek their own learning journey, but you also have to make things supremely engaging for that to work out and for the learning to be effective. So how does that inform your instructional design techniques? Yeah, I think it depends on the experience. And it feels like that's all I'm saying today is it depends, which I think is so true. If you look at the content, right? So for me, if I'm thinking of, you know, I still do a lot of software training. It's like my love. If I'm going to let, if I'm going to do a software training, I'll let you explore. If you want to start at the end, sure. I don't want to gate the whole, the whole thing for you. You might also only need the end piece because you already actually

have experience with the platform. So you don't need the first three modules. That's fine. However, there are certain topics. I think of this professional development program that we worked on, right? That's something that I need you to be on, you know, in pace with the group and pace with the cohort going through because the content is building and it's scaling on top of each other, you know? So I think that there is opportunity for independence and autonomy without having to create, you know, choose your own adventure for everything and making everything so autonomous they don't have to work through the entire program and so i think that can be they don't have to be mutually exclusive obviously there's cases where you have to go through compliance training or something that's absolutely critical and that's that's a totally difference there are you doing both like

informal and formal training in the work that you do yes absolutely we do some some compliance training i'm dying to have someone ask me to create cybersecurity training TikTok style because I have a whole character. I have a black hood I want to put on. I promise I will act this one out. And, you know, it's all storyboarded in my head. And I think I just keep talking about it. And so eventually I'll speak it into existence where someone will. Yeah, just manifest it. I love that. Yeah. Because, and I think people actually pay attention more to that. You know, I've taken some compliance training where it's, you know, I've just sit there and wait until the next button enables to learn more about, you know, why shouldn't be clicking on the

email where in fact, in the moment, the reason that I clicked the email, because it looked really close to like being an actual email from that person, you know, and it would or I was distracted. And I was, you know, something happened. And I just happened to open it and click the link. And then I brought down the entire organization's firewall. That's more actually what's happening. But to sit there and read the learning objectives in the beginning, and walk through I mean, that that feels like everybody's like a waste of time. And unfortunately, those compliance things are the first things that you take. So really sets the tone for the rest of the L and D department. And so everyone just has the assumption that all of your content is going

to be not for, not for you and quite boring. Yeah. that was my immediate thought is that things like compliance and safety and whatever, it's you usually got to get that out of the way first before you can even do the job. So that really does set the tone and set the expectation. And I mean, we can be frank about this. A lot of training in general that I've experienced, I mean, not recently, but in my first few jobs, it was just so boring. It was incredibly boring. And I do think that the obvious change that we can make is, you know, look at the kind of content that is engaging people. And the options there are, as we've already discussed, but the options there, you can go like high level cinematic, super exciting, or you can, you know, do something that's more simple.

And I think TikTok and, you know, what's happening on social media is a really good example of that. But I would like to ask you this question that I actually asked Christopher Lind in a similar context recently on the show, actually. And when I was starting in marketing, I had access to a lot of data. And it was very clear that from a marketing perspective, and this was mostly advertising, but it was very clear that the success rate of videos, this was video in advertising, if you had really high quality cinematic stuff, that performed about as well as your simple, like right to the point selfie videos,

where it was very personal and almost intimate. And then anything in between just didn't work as well. So if you like tried to make it, you know, a little bit nice, but didn't really have the resources and didn't like hire out a production company, you were going to flop. But if you opened up your phone and said, hey, guys, what's going on? Check this out. It would perform nearly as well, at least in the short term, as some really high level

cinematic stuff. Have you seen anything like that as well? Oh, my gosh. Yes. I talk about it when I talk about TikTok. And I was part of, you know, YouTube when it would start to become really big, not part of it as an on it, but watched it, you know, like I used to love watching, you know, beauty, the beauty community on YouTube.

And what I noticed was the very beginning of the beauty community when it was, you know, someone sitting in front of her bed on the floor, dark, you know, no great lighting. And she was just showing the things that she got from the drugstore. Those videos, people really gravitated towards. And when it started shifting and they started making more money and the production value got so high, people no longer related. So people want, love the, love the, the authenticity behind, you know, video and advertisements and with the training that you're taking. And that's really the most important part is the authenticity, right? So when you're creating video for learning and development, really thinking about the story that you're telling, if you're telling the story of a perfect

day, well, we all know we don't have those perfect days. So I'm going to tune out because that doesn't resonate with me. It feels inauthentic. Now you're actually talking about how my day truly is, you know, the pings and the dings and the last minute requests and this and that. And now I still have to, and now the phishing email, you know, the email comes in that I might take down the firewall. That fact that the ones that are more authentic and not perfect and without all that cinematic value or production value, I think is there's a huge benefit to doing that. I mean, that's what we want, right? We want that authenticity and that transparency. And then you pay attention, you listen to the story. There's a place for, for, you know, all of the cinematography, but it's not actually necessary and so i think we have to kind of get that out of our minds i think we were maybe maybe we were

kind of like brainwashed into believing it had to be absolutely perfect because we have that perfectionism but you want to know what perfectionism is just procrastination so we're just procrastinating yeah we grew up like you and I are probably, you know, relatively similar in our technology experience and everything. And, you know, movies and TV were always very high quality. Like that's, that was the video that I was raised on. It was film and it was television. And guess what?

That's got million dollar budgets. It wasn't until the internet came or I was watching a weird home video of myself as a child that I ever saw a video that wasn't perfect and didn't go through 20 rounds of editing in Hollywood or, you know, Madison Avenue for advertisements, that sort of thing. So, I'm not surprised that we have that tendency. And again, the direction that we're going, I think, is obviously away from that. But I do have a question then about the authenticity point, which is one of your pillars is also collaboration, right?

So I would think that a good part of authenticity can come from familiarity, which if you're doing collaborative learning, a very popular thing that I've read about and spoken to a few people about is things like corporate universities or things that try to emulate a semester schedule or a school in some way. And they often just enlist internally their own people to be the teachers in that sense. And to me, this sounds really cool. You're getting your own people to teach what they know because they're the subject matter experts and you're teaching your peers and those that you're already familiar with. So I would say that that's a form of authenticity that gets developed through that

sort of a program. Are you working on anything like that where you're encouraging like direct collaborative education that isn't that it's actually synchronous? Yeah. So with a lot of organizations that I work with, when we are doing the synchronous learning, I try to have opportunity. So what we love to do, we have this kind of framework where there's like education and there's some sort of activity and then there's a reflection. And sometimes that activity or that reflection will be in a group sort of experience. And one of the biggest things that I like to add into a lot of my content or the content that we produce is the idea share aspect where they drive. I'm going to give you a one thing to discuss, and then you all drive your experiences. And then you all idea share what's working best for you.

Because sometimes I think that in learning and development, we can assume that we have all the answers. We know all the best ways to do things, right? And sometimes there's more than we just have, you know, just haven't made it into our curriculum. And so having that ability for people to work together is I think going to be key moving into the future because we can't know everything. And there's so much that comes onto our plates, you know, as you know, learning and development is only going to get bigger. I truly believe we're only going to become bigger and bigger and bigger as the years go on and more. I mean, I believe that we're integral to the organization, but we're going to see

truly how integral we are in the next 5, 10, 15 years that we are just not going to be able to keep up. So we're going to have to start to rely on those folks to help us create and to learn from each other. And what I think is so amazing about, you know, tools like Slack and Teams is you can start to build those communities, you know, you can start to build those people that become your, you know, your online friends. That is, that's where you go to for the learning. That's where you go to learn from others' experiences. And so I always tell people, you know, TikTok, a great place to start is by starting with a,

what I wish I knew on my first day and letting people create their own style of video and create it for themselves. I think we love to gatekeep so much because we're so concerned about compliance, where I think if you actually gave people more of that autonomy to create, you'd be pleasantly surprised and you'd be more often surprised than like, oh, no, we want to do something about that. But you also hear the myths that are getting out there once you start letting people share. And then you can course correct right from the beginning as opposed to people sharing through a Slack message or a Teams message or just through a hallway conversation. And then that perpetuates the bad habits and the bad practices. I like that idea of what I wish I knew on my first day, because I also want to ask you about the kind of learning that takes place in the moments of mistakes or failures. So this is the sort of thing that obviously you're not planning this as much. You don't, as an L&D professional, you're not going to somebody saying, hey, how do

I teach people that screw up and how do we deal with mistakes and that sort of thing? That's sort of like the natural learning that comes on the job. But systematically, we do have to think about those things. And I think it comes from, you know, teaching soft skills and knowing how to have those difficult conversations, creating, you know, sort of like a feeling of safety in the company so that you, if you make a mistake, you don't feel like you have to hide it. And like, that's the safer option is to not talk about the mistake and not to learn from it. So how do you approach that sort of thing? Are you formally addressing mistakes and learning from errors and failures and that sort of thing and what you do? Yeah, I would say not everybody is depends on the organization, if they have the culture to have that transparent conversation of, you know, mistakes will happen. But also mistakes is where, you know, innovation, you know, happen, you know, and greater things sometimes come out of what is perceived at that moment as a mistake.

But it really comes more down to the culture. And I think it depends, you know, on the content and the organization being able to have that conversation, especially when you're talking about like management training. You know, I think that's probably managing people is one of the hardest things that you can do. One of the hardest things that you can learn. And it really, it takes a lot of practice and you will mess up a lot along the way. Being able to have that real authentic conversation during class about, I know you just took this training, you're going to mess up.

And that's okay. And giving them permission to do that and just acknowledge the fact that it will happen. And here is how you can course correct after that happens. And you know what I mean? And here are the resources that we have available to you. We don't have that often enough. And I can say that that is something that I would love to do more of and have more of those types of conversations. But a lot of organizations are not ready to release the perfectionism. Yeah. I also spoke with Ariel O'Farrell recently. She is a management consultant. And I asked her this question,

because she brings this up in one of her talks. So when you deliver any sort of learning program, any course, you're going to have approximately three groups of people that come away from that. And that's those who take it, run with it, and just do it right. And they're killing it. They know what they're doing, and they implement that new thing that they learned. Then you have the folks that definitely learn from it, but need some help to go out and, and implement and make it work. And then you have those that just aren't going to do it, that don't do it. And maybe you can convince some of them, but there's always going to be people who just simply are not interested in that. And those are problematic people to start, but you know, maybe there's hope for them. One of your pillars, activate. I feel like this goes to address that directly, but I'm curious

as to how you integrate that in, in, from an ID perspective, from an instructional design perspective, are you incorporating resources within the learning that help those different groups of people so that not everybody is just leaving the course with the same finish, but but you know, there's something for those that need a little bit of an extra push or need a much bigger push. Or does that also just fall into the category of management training and making sure that, you know, those who are leaders and managers do that extra work for the people who need an extra push? Where does that fall for you? Yeah, I think it's both. So part of it is when we're contracted to do a project, we have the conversation like, okay, but what's next? And it's not necessarily that it's a sales pitch, although like, great, if we get more work out of it. But it's really more because I do care about the learners, right? And like, okay, so they're going to walk away. And like, we think about it when we're developing training, what are they leaving with? And really, when we're developing, I think of that as a bell bell curve and I can't create training for the two extremes. I need to focus on the middle and then have opportunities for people to speed up, slow down as they may need

and have those kinds of opportunities. And then ensure that we have, what is this? And that's why we talk about having time for the 201301s because that's what I'm going to now having time for the 201301s because that's what I'm going to now pitch or provide for those ones that can take in that can run with it, you know, and give them if they're almost like, you know, how in marketing, you can segment your audiences based on like what they're clicking. It's that same kind of thing. And I can now direct you and give you more of that personalization, because now I know really where you're at. We all have, but we all have that base knowledge as a, as part or in reference to the, those that are just never going to pay attention or just don't care about it, I think we can spend a lot of time. I think we do often spend a lot of time in all

aspects of our life hearing those voices the loudest as opposed to everybody else. And so I just tell... I talk to my clients and I tell my team, we can't can't worry about everybody. And it's, you know, if you're creating training for everybody, you're going to create training for nobody. So let's figure out it's why learner personas are critical. I need to know who is generally, who is the, who's our person that we're speaking to? And I want to make sure they're good. And then, then I'll create opportunities for everybody else. And those are easier because I can just add little building blocks. But I'm not going to, I'm not going to create something in which I have to hit every single person because I'll miss everybody and it will just be a fail. So I want to clarify something because I'm not sure I fully understood what you said earlier,

but when we were talking about making TikTok style education, for instance, were you actually advocating for having like multiple options for teaching the same thing, for instance, so different audiences within even the same organization where you might literally make, you know, a one, one course, but in multiple different ways using different media options, or at least having different options for, for approaching the same learning? Do you actually do that? Do you create maybe multiple courses that are similar or different versions of the same thing? No, I won't create something that's yeah.

Well, I can just say yes and no. I'm not going to create the same thing multiple ways because that's going to leave a lot of updating time when we have like a zero time, not we as an us, but like your L&D department does not have much time to maintain as much. And they're maintaining so many libraries of things. However, with the great thing with the TikTok style videos is that it's a video, but you also, you know, I encourage best practices. So I encourage text on the screen. I encourage a good long caption. And so in that caption could be those five steps, right? So if I'm walking you

through five steps on how to do something, you don't have to watch the video. It's kind of like when you, you know, Google something now, you know, I'll Google how to do something Excel all the time. I have the option to watch the video or I have the text that I could just read really fast. And I just make that decision as to what I need in that moment. So it's having that, the same, the same options. So it doesn't mean that I'm creating everything in multiple ways. It's just looking at what is it that I'm training or what is that content that I'm getting out there. And if a TikTok style video works, then that's what I'm going to use because that's moving into the wave of the future. So ultimately what you're saying is that

the new media that we're seeing actually gives optionality within the medium itself. You have the video, you have the caption and that sort of thing. So you're just, you're sort of following the social media in that sense, right? Yeah, exactly. Okay. Another related question to this is the shelf life of content. So I saw a survey recently released by Vierte, which is, I believe they're a European solution provider for L&D, but they talked to 144 L&D pros and they asked a series of questions. One of them was, what do you think the shelf life of learning content is? And I think they might've been referring specifically to videos with this actually.

An overwhelming majority said less than five years, for sure. I think the, at least 40%, maybe more than half, said that two to three years is probably the average. I think 6% said five years, and then a bunch more people said one year. So people think, and I think this is pretty accurate, that, you know, the courses that we make and the things that we make are going to last a year or two at most. And I think this goes back to what you were saying earlier, that L&D is only going to increase in importance in this sense. And especially, you know, instructional design

and that sort of thing, because we are dealing with a time of crazy change. And AI right now is sort of the elephant in the room. Understanding how AI works and the tools that are available to us is such an endeavor, like trying to figure out how to take advantage of these things that can be used for personal productivity optimization or for organizational. There's a lot to learn there. And that's just from the user perspective, not even from the technology backend perspective and understanding what we're getting into, which is a big technological question. So is that kind of what you're saying that with the rapid pace of change in technology that, you know, L&D is going to become more important in that sense to help educate folks on these things?

Yeah, absolutely. I think there's that. And I think there's also just the rapid way of the fact that the world around us changes, you know, even things that you think are pretty stable, will will always have some sort of change. I always recommend having some sort of maintenance plan or review plan, even your, you know, your cybersecurity training, right, because of AI and all of those things, there are going to be new things that you have to look out for that if you're still using the same training from five, 10 years ago, that's not going to be good enough. You know, there's, there's always going to be changes and

some will happen more rapidly than others. So it's really about finding ways that you can look at the content on a cycle and have that plan. But then also find the right tools to help you be nimble to make those changes when you need to. Is it about having a cycle and creating new content or are there ways of making content with some sort of vision to the future? Obviously, we can't predict what these changes are going to be, but you can enlist experts. And I think this is something that you do quite a lot. Actually, you can enlist certain experts who are futurists or, you know, just really experts in that specific industry who can help you maybe figure out how to teach something and make that training last a little bit longer or be more effective or, you know, kind of future proof things. Do you advise

that sort of thing as well? I think there is, there are certain things that you can do to future-proof and we try to do those things, right? So we try not to timestamp as much as we can and reflect too much on current, you know, experiences. You know, even I think back to some of my YouTube videos, like YouTube has a really long life shelf and like I'm talking in some videos

about coronavirus just happening, but for some people who just discovered me, coronavirus happened three years ago. So it's no, it doesn't feel as relevant. So we make very intentional choices with how we are discussing what is happening in the world around us, um, or how it might affect, you know, what it is that we're training or talking about. And then we're always constantly on the hunt and looking for ways to, or different authoring tools and mediums that we can use to be effective when it comes to learning, but also change quite rapidly. And then also really thinking about, does everything have to be in here and updated, right? So is there a way where we can create content where the core that

we know is the core of that content, the true foundation, that's going to be what I'm going to, you know, put in the e-learning module or something like that. And then supplement with other things like a seven taps, you know, nudge style, you know, campaign, or, you know, a TikTok style video, a, a quick job aid, even just an email nudge, you know, other things to help future proof, you know what I mean? And provide information in that moment of need and as quickly as possible as you can get it out there in the easiest way. So for me, I think we try to put, such as we try not to do this, we try to put too much in our content where it becomes almost impossible to future proof it. So I really love to just strip down to the core.

What's not going to change? You know, certain things are just core pillars. And then everything else, let's talk about some different mediums and how we can really package this differently. So you can change it as you need. I see. That makes a lot of sense. You do work with subject matter experts in a variety of different cases, though, as well, right?

Like external ones that aren't even from the organization do enlist the help of. Yeah, we'll do both. Yeah. So if some customers that need support with specific subject matter experts, so we'll source and hire them. OK, I'm curious about that, because especially when it comes to things like gap analyses or like figuring out where like when a company has specific needs, when it's something that they lack, if it's something that you also are not an expert in,

like if nobody really knows what they're going for, it's the arena of ignorance there. So is that an example of where you would bring in subject matter experts? And, you know, how do you advise working with external folks, you know, bringing them to an organization that needs to learn something that's just totally outside of their understanding? Yeah, that's absolutely where I'd bring someone. You know, I'm not an expert on, you know, change management or moving culture and things like that. I know enough to be quite dangerous. And it's a passion of mine because I just believe everyone should have an experience where they work, where they feel like they could belong.

And everyone's thriving. Then the company is thriving. And so we all like that. So for me, it is bringing in those that are experts in those industries. And for me, finding partnerships is why like relationships are so critical, you know, and knowing and, and having the, the understanding that I'm not going to know everything and that's okay. It's really hard for people to realize that and to be okay with that. Cause I think we're taught from almost birth that you have to know everything, right? You have to know everything.

So you ace that test when you get that 4.0 GPA and you get that, that bachelor's or that master's or whatever that path is for you. Right. And so now to sit here and say, I'm like, it was hard for me, you know, going and like, no one taught, there's a book on how to be a CEO that like everyone follows. And, you know, it's, you know, it's, it's like, this is the playbook go, go and do, and you'll be fine. So really being strategic about who you're bringing in to help with those things and being able to humble yourself and say, I don't know everything and I need to actually bring in an expert. But I also love that because when you do that, it allows your employees to also feel like they can finally be a little bit honest. Because if there is an issue that you're having a gap analysis for, right? They're not always going to be honest, you know, especially if on the other side, it's

their manager, their boss's boss that's asking the question. So I love to be able to create opportunity for organizations to have an even playing field and really get a true culture pulse and sense and then give them a plan. And listen, it's going to feel, it's going to feel, you're going to feel naked. It's not going to always be fun and it's going to feel like a lot, but that's why you have a phased plan approach. So we're very pragmatic at anchor training. And like, that's how I am. Like I have a very big vision, but I'm also going to get there step-by-step-by-step. And that's the important thing is knowing that this is a marathon, right? This is not like a one race to fix the issue. And when you

can humble yourself to let someone else come in and support you and know that it's coming from a good place where like truly everyone just wants to support those and to help others. And then you can realize that you're going, it's going to be a while step-by-step and it's going to be a little bit messy at times. Once you have that, then you can, you can make a lot of great change, you know? Is there a specific method that you have for introducing and almost like testing or piloting an expert with an organization, you know, bringing somebody in to make sure that that relationship is strong? Oh, it's, I feel like the million dollar matchmaker from Bravo.

There's like meetings, you know, we have to, we all have to meet, we have to match, we have to have real conversation. It's like dating, right? I have to know if your values are similar to mine and you're going to be able to also, although some organizations aren't going to want this. This is what I'm observing. If that consultant is going to be able to stand up and hold the boundary in a very professional and, you know, professional way, but also, you know, hold someone accountable when they need to be

held accountable. I want to ask one more question. I want to finish up on the topic of workflow learning, because this is so critical in every L&D conversation I've had, but I want to hear about it from an instructional design perspective. So what are your best tips and tricks and hacks for incorporating learning in the flow of work from your perspective as an ID? First things first, where are your people? Where are they? Where are they hanging out day in and day out? We spend our entire day in Slack. If I'm going to do something where I want them to work to, you know, learning the flow of work, you bet your bottom dollar, I am creating a Slack channel. And that's where we're going to be. If we're in teams, that's where you're going

to, that's where you're going to be. And I'm also very strategic about, you know, what I'm learning from marketing and being, you know, some of it will be like a testimonial or like, you know, just really encouraging engagement. So people really learn more about, you know, what it is that we're trying to initiate and what we're trying to get out there. That is definitely my number one, short, sweet, simple, hook, content, call to action. That's all I want to know. Take out all of the fluff. I don't need all of the things. Just really what do they truly need to know? And the other thing about learning and the flow of work is really being honest with yourself. Do they need

to know that right now? A lot of our content we put out there, they don't even need to know that for another, like, let's say six months. So I'm not, why am I putting that content out there now? Why don't I again, take a pitch from marketing, right? Set a content calendar and, you know, use email automations or use automations in Slack. Like today, I just scheduled a whole bunch of Slack messages for my team. Daily check-ins, Monday, what you're going to be working on, Friday wins. I'm not going in every single day and doing that. I automated all of that. So it automatically gets sent out.

I can customize the message, which is really great. And you can utilize that too. So instead of getting that piece of content that they need, you know, six months early when they're going to forget it, and they have to search through their email to find it, you can send it out right in the moment of need. I was talking to someone last week or the week before. And we were working on reviewing some content. And she there's this report that these VPs have to pull on the 10th. And I'm like, so are you texting them? I'm like, you're sending them you're sending them through training to remember they do this 10th of the month report. That's great. But also, are you texting them? Because, you know, once you text them, like,

let's say seven times, because you remember things after seven times, once you text them seven times, hey, don't forget to pull the report today. This is what I need from you from by tomorrow. It eventually can become a habit. So it's those little things. Habit formation. That's a huge question, though. How do you do that, you know, safely without, you know, micromanaging and that sort of thing? And how do you actually, you know, and create the systems and the tools that will result in positive habits instead of sort of anxiety over the thing that you're doing or whatever it is? So that's a big organizational conversation because the organization has to also let go

of things. Right. So like some, I think it was actually might've been in that report that you're referencing earlier about taking time for training. They don't have time because they don't, you know, they still have like all the things they have to do, you know, for their day. Well, if you don't set up time for learning to be important and they still, now they're getting their work done after hours or doing their training after hours. It just it never achieves that learning culture that I think everyone is looking for. And you're going to need. Are you then an advocate for establishing designated learning time just universally across organizations?

Yeah. So at anchor training, we have like Fridays are supposed to be professional development, you know, are there things that come up here and there? Absolutely. And, you know, you are expected to handle fires, but in terms of we have professional development stipends. And so we have those conversations and they look different. You know, I told them like, it does, you know, if I have a learning experience designer, you don't have to go to like a storyline class. If you have, you know, something else completely out of the scope of like your day-to-day job, but you think it's going to help you do your day-to-day job, let's have that conversation about why. And I'll probably send it to you. I love building up people as humans as well. But yeah, I think finding those times, those pockets of time, and then really encouraging

it is actually critical. I love asking this question because everybody has a different answer for it, but educating those folks who spent, you know, a longer portion of their life in school, you know, getting terminal degrees and that sort of thing. Do you have any specific advice for keeping them in the learning loop? So I think bug them with kindness. I think being very realistic that their day is different. I actually had a conversation with a company who they have an app for like coding and it's a gamification app.

I didn't love it. And he's like, well, the doctors aren't taking it. I said, well, the doctors are really paid to help people and they are on a timer for like how many people they have to have to support.

Yeah. They don't really care that their notes are not that great because they're not seeing the actual impact. So I think number one stories it's really hard for people to like not to really unless you're like a really not a nice human it's really hard for you not to like want to change a little bit of your behavior to make it easier for someone else if like you're really connected with that person that's why i'm a huge proponent of relationships and like becoming friends with your subject matter experts not friends but like really building a bond because

you really can learn a lot from each other and you can support each other. And it's really hard for them to ghost you if they like you. And then also just being realistic, right? And so having a, you're going to have a different sort of method in order to get them to do what you need because their day is just unlike so many others. It's like trying to get the CEO to take your cybersecurity training. Like it's, it is never going to equal the same. There's going to be so many things they have to do. You're going to have to come at it a little bit different to get him to do the training. Well, Vanessa, I think that's a great place for us to wrap again. Thank you so much for joining us today. Before you hop off,

can you just let our audience know where they can learn more about you? joining us today. Before you hop off, can you just let our audience know where they can learn more about you? Yeah, absolutely. So I am on LinkedIn, Vanessa Elizonte, and of course, on TikTok. It's angered underscore training. And you know, love to chat more with everyone about, you know, TikTok and learning the flow of work and the future of learning and development. Thank you, Tyler. Thank you so much once more. And for all you listening at home, thanks for joining us. We will see you on the next episode. Cheers. You've been listening to L&D in Action, a show from Get Abstract. Subscribe to the show and your favorite podcast player to make sure you never miss an episode. And don't forget to give us a rating, leave a comment and share the episodes

you love. Help us keep delivering the conversations that turn learning into action.