L&D In Action: Winning Strategies from Learning Leaders - Developing High Achievers: Intrinsic Motivation, Continuous Learning, and Thoughtful Mentorship

Episode Date: August 20, 2024

Olympians, astronauts, Nobel Prize winners... All exemplars of the highest form of human achievement. And they all have traits in common. There are high achievers everywhere: In our organizations, but also seeking an organization to give them a platform from which they can shoot for the moon. This week, Dr. Ruth Gotian joins the show to share her research on what makes high achievers and how to develop them.

You're listening to L&D in Action, winning strategies from learning leaders. This podcast, presented by Get Abstract, brings together the brightest minds in learning and development to discuss the best strategies for fostering employee engagement, maximizing potential, and building a culture of learning in your organization. This week, my guest is Dr. Ruth Gautian. Ruth is a global keynote speaker, coach through Marshall Goldsmith's 100 Coaches, and the chief learning officer in anesthesiology at Weill Cornell.

Ruth is the preeminent scholar and researcher on the topic of modern high achievers. She has written two books on the topic, The Success Factor, and with co-author Andy Lapata, The Financial Times Guide to Mentoring. Ruth's work has been published in Forbes, Harvard Business Review, Nature, Psychology Today and much more. She has spoken for teams at global organizations, including EY and

Accenture, delivered lectures at virtually every Ivy League University, and does it all while maintaining a role as Associate Professor at Cornell. In 2021, Ruth was recognized by Thinkers 50 as the world's number one emerging management thinker. In 2022, she was ranked one of the top 20 mentors in the world. I could go on and on and on about her accolades, so I guess I gotta stop here, but not before letting you know that Ruth has worked directly with Olympians, Nobel Prize winners, astronauts,

and many more world-class individuals. Just listen to the conversation and check out her work. Let's dive in. Hello and welcome to LND in Action. I'm your host, Tyler Le, and today my guest is Dr. Ruth Gautian. Ruth, I'm thrilled to be having this conversation with you. Thanks for joining me today. Thanks for having me.

Greetings, everyone from New York City. All right. This is going to be a lot of fun. I love the timing of our conversation right now because the Olympics actually just closed the day before we were recording the 2024 Olympics in Paris, France. You actually were able to spend some time there

watching the athletes, which I'm so jealous of to be totally honest with you. And not only that, but you've worked with many Olympians. You're very close with Coach Steve Kerr of the USA Basketball team who just won the gold. And that's really going to be the focus of our conversation today is folks like Olympians who are high achievers, how to identify them, how to develop them and what their principles and habits are. But I do want to start by needling a little bit on one point that you make repeatedly in your book, The Success Factor. This stuck out to me a little bit. You at many junctures say the highest of achievers,

these folks who become Olympians, gold medal winners, astronauts, Nobel Prize winners, really high level scientists, you say that they don't do the work that they do with the end goal of achieving these things in mind. They aren't thinking about that gold medal or that Nobel Prize as they do their work. And I have to say have a slight issue with that. I actually pulled up on YouTube this very legendary interview with LeBron James, who, as I just mentioned, just won the gold with Team USA in basketball, arguably the best basketball player of all time. When he was 16 years old, he was interviewed by, you know, some news channel and he's a sophomore in high school, but he's saying my goal is to

get to the NBA and then they ask him if he wants to be the best and he goes, I want to be the best. It's very clear that he has that real deep end game of NBA, probably a championship, you know, maybe Olympic gold. They're not front of mind, but you can tell that he wants to be the best. It's very clear in that interview. I just, I have to ask, is it possible that there are certain kinds of high achievers that really are just thinking about that ultimate achievement and that's what motivates them? That's the sort of intrinsic motivation that we'll dive more into later. LeBron in particular has a very well-known story. He was

just a kid from Akron who had these big dreams of achieving all these things that he has now effectively done. And I can't help but think that when he was going through all the struggles that he faced with his family and his community, that he wasn't thinking, this is my way out, it's my way to financial wellbeing, it's my way to fame, just to security., to security, you know, and I feel like at the end

of the day, for some people, that that ultimate end game is such a dream of just guaranteed happiness, well being that it must be a motivator really thinking about that ending. Do you agree to some extent? See, I'm gonna push back on your pushback, because when you were that good at something, your goal is always, what is that next step? What is that next step?

And it's not about the championship or the Olympics. He doubled down on his basketball, because he was good at it, and he loved it. He loved doing it. And every practice was about making it better and better and better. But you know the first time he ever had a basketball in his hand, I don't think he was ever worried about the NBA. It was let's just have a good time at recess. And then recess started probably, I didn't interview him, but I'm going to assume based on the other interviews,

recess started getting competitive and he was better than the others. And we're like, okay, we need something a little bit more than the junior high gym. Let's see where that will take us. And then it starts to build and build and build. Look, we all saw Simone Biles. She started as a little kid. Michael Phelps, mom just put him in swimming

because he had all this extra energy he needed to let out. No one was thinking about the Olympics at that point. But as you start to get better, the question then becomes, all right, if I'm getting better, how much can I get better with the proper training? And then better yet and better yet over time. And then you start getting these goals that start to stack up right so then the next step is you know let me make it to an NBA team let me make it as a starter as opposed to warming the bench let me now start being a great team player let me start scoring let me start passing oh now I want to win a championship oh now

I want to make it to an Olympic team. These goals start to build on themselves. And if they don't, those who are retiring at 25 will crash and burn if there's not a goal after. As you illustrate this sort of like progression of goals, I'm actually thinking more about the interview and what else LeBron said in this legendary moment. Obviously the media wants to get certain quotes from somebody and they want the real high

level end game lofty things to come out of their mouths. But LeBron actually does in this interview when he's 16 years old, he mentions Tracy McGrady who was very clearly to some degree a mentor to him. He actually had the chance to speak to Tracy who was in the NBA at the time that LeBron was in high school and he talks about what Tracy says to him, which is You got to focus on who's in front of you You got to focus on the guy defending you or the team that's directly in front of you and the quote He actually says is you got to kill him. You got to take him on and you got to kill him

So I do think that very much Validates what you're saying about, you about focusing on what the immediate next goal is and how to overcome that immediate obstacle. A hundred percent. And if you watched any sport in the Olympics, and I have watched many, many in the last two weeks, whatever it is, their focus on what's in front of them right now. If it's that swim meet, that track meet, that judo competition, the opponent before them, not if I win this, I make the next one. If I win this, I make the next one. It's who's in front of them right now.

What is the goal in front of them right now? And I actually started taking pictures of them and I sent it to some of those who I coach of them in the tunnel. You know the tunnel before it goes up and they start going into the public arena? You could see in their body language, their focus. It was so intense. And if any of us, mere mortals, had even a fraction of that focus, we would see that our productivity would improve.

They were just dialed in on what they were going to do right then and there. So let's talk about us mere mortals then. Let's talk about, you know, the organizational and how we can turn our people into high achievers and how we can create mentorship programs that are effective. You speak about and write about sources of motivation. There is the extrinsic and the intrinsic and what you say in the success factor is that if you're going to be a high achiever, you have to have that source of intrinsic motivation. So my first question to you about this is how do we identify the folks at our organizations that very clearly have that sort of it factor? They're motivated by something internally

and they have the potential to maybe be a high achiever, but they aren't quite there yet. Are there things that you can look for and observe so that you can do what you advise, which is to really focus on those people, those high achievers? How do we identify those people if maybe they aren't at that level yet and then focus on them? Yeah. Turning those high potentials into high achievers. And I think organizationally, we've spent too much time on those who are not meeting

the metrics, the below average achievers. Whereas we said we should really be focusing on those high potentials and high achievers, as you said, they are 400% more productive than the average employee. So what might they look at? You know when you have to do a performance improvement plan for somebody who is not meeting certain benchmarks, and you have to say, let me send you to these courses, let me send you to these workshops,

let me assign you someone who can teach you these skills, these things that you are shoving down their throat that they probably don't even want, the high achievers would accept that with open arms. You're going to send me to a place where I can learn a new skill, where I can improve something, where I can advance something, when I can figure out how to do it differently because they are so curious. They always want to learn more. So think about it if you were to give those resources to somebody who would really relish and really love it who would that be? That's the first mark that that's someone who

would really be a high achiever and they are very curious and these are the kind of people where there's a problem they'll go run off and you may not see or hear them for a while and then they'll came they'll come back with a solution which was likely better than anything that you could have imagined that you have needed. But they will do that on their own without micromanaging. You don't need to check in on them. Those are the people that you want to look out for.

You know that if Tyler is going to go off for a day, a week, two weeks, whatever it is, you know he's coming back with something unbelievable. Those are the people that you want to invest in. Those are your high potentials and high achievers. So then how do we properly empower them? So you mentioned if they were to receive a PIP or something along those lines,

which ideally we're not starting there, but we're giving them other kinds of resources. So from a learning and development or an HR perspective, there are many things that we can provide, whether it's access to content, access to mentors. What is the right amount of autonomy to give them for them to disappear for a couple of weeks, but still have access to the right categories of knowledge

and the right tools to actually achieve something and giving them a degree of guidance as well. How do we sort of find the happy medium in there? Yeah. So, you know, you get to know them first, right? You're not going to on the first week say, okay, go away for two weeks and figure this out. You want to actually get to know them. And you can start that by having these conversations. If there was a skill that you want to learn, what would it be? If there was someone you wanted to learn from,

who would that be? What are some of the things that you feel are a gap in your knowledge that you were really craving to close that gap? Let's figure out how we can help you do that. And they will tell you exactly what they need, exactly what they're looking for. Where you can help with is obviously providing those resources, but also setting them up with someone who can push them outside of their limits. Because their limits

are already further than anyone else's. But true learning occurs right where we start to get a little bit uncomfortable, where we don't know what we don't know and who are the people who can help push them to that. That from an L&D perspective is so incredible because those are the mentors that will really get them to see beyond a horizon that they can't see for themselves. So I think that's something that L&D can really facilitate. So I think that's something that Ellen De can really facilitate. So before we move on and dive more into mentorship and continued learning, what about the folks that just maybe don't have

that source of intrinsic motivation? I like to think that everybody has substantial potential. Maybe that's me being naive, but at the end of the day, can we as organizations and as leaders instill in someone the motivation that they need to become great. You have the people who maybe can't walk away for a week or two and come back with an incredible solution. I'm sure we don't just let those folks go and trust that there's another solution for

them somewhere else. Do we try to reallocate their skills and abilities? Do we work harder with them and invest differently in them? How do you advise that we work with those who just maybe don't have that it factor? Yeah, look, you don't want an entire organization of high achievers because we need people to do certain day in, day out things that may not require this innovative, curious skill set. It's just these tasks that need to get done.

And that's fine for a lot of people, and that's OK. But to move an organization forward is where we need those high achievers. That's what's so critical. Look, I believe everyone at every level, from the person answering the phone to the CEO, has intrinsic motivation. They might not have found it yet or it might have shifted.

So I talk quite a bit about intrinsic motivation in the book, The Success Factor. So just to clarify, intrinsic motivation is what nobody needs to push you how to do. It comes from within. It's that fire in your belly. It's the reason you wake up chipper in the morning and you can't really quiet your mind at night because you keep thinking about it. This is very different from extrinsic motivation,

which is when you're doing it for the bonus, awards, rewards, diplomas, things like that. That's hard to maintain. That's trying to make somebody else happy. But when it comes from within, nothing and no one will stop you. Now, there is a way that we can figure out what people are intrinsically motivated to do. And trust me, people want to know

because if you can spend just 20% of your time working on what you're intrinsically motivated to do, it will decrease your burnout. Lots of studies on this. So what I usually do is I take people through this three-column exercise called the Passion Audit. I love this. And this really helps differentiate between what you're good at and what you love doing. There is a difference. You could be

really good at something and not enjoy doing. I am really good at grant writing. I don't want to write anymore grants. It sucks the life out of me. It's not fun. But I'm really good at it, right? Apollo Anton Ono, the most decorated winter Olympian, I think he has eight. He was a short track speed skater, but before that he was a state level swimmer. He was really good at swimming, but he didn't love it the way he liked the short track speed skating. So we need to differentiate between what you're good at and what you're not good at, what you enjoy, what you don't enjoy, what you procrastinate doing, etc. There is in the book the success factor I talk about it and there is that

whole template, but if the listeners can't wait and they want to download one right now, there's one that they could download completely for free on my website. They just go to Ruth gotian are you th? Gotian Ruth gotian comm forward slash passion audit So to pivot back around to the idea of surrounding High potentials with the right people that will sort of you know push them to the next level and act as you know The resources that they need to find those incredibly innovative solutions. In the Financial Times, God 2 Mentoring, you give a good overview as to what makes for a good mentoring relationship and how to structure those at an organizational level. There's a couple key questions that I have that I think are going

to be really helpful. First off, what are some of the, not quite myths, but what are the errors that we can make when saying, okay, this would make a good mentor-mentee relationship, but maybe that's not actually true. What are the pitfalls that we can fall into, and what are the actual qualities that make for really strong mentor-mentee relationships? Yeah, and we talk a lot about this in the book,

Financial Times Guide to Mentoring. Too often, well let me backtrack, every single Fortune 50 company has a mentoring program. We know it works. All the research shows it works, which is why they have it. And almost every single Fortune 500 company has it. The problem is if you ask anyone, is it working well? They'll say, well, you know, it's better than nothing. And the reason, there are several reasons for this. One is the matches are often completely random. So they'll say, Tyler, you're from New York, Ruth, you're from New York, therefore,

let's put you as a mentor mentee match. Well, surprise, not everyone from New York is Ruth, you're from New York, therefore, let's put you as a mentor-mentee match." Well, surprise, not everyone from New York is exactly the same. So to put people- There's a lot of us here. I know, there's a lot of us. And to put people based on, you went to the same school, you come from the same city, it's just completely random, or you're both interested in marketing, let's put you together.

It doesn't really make sense. Where it does work is there are statistically certain groups of people who will not seek out mentors as well, just such as women and underrepresented groups. So this gives a starting point. But with every starting point, you also need an exit ramp if it doesn't work, if the mentor turns into a tour mentor, and we can talk about that later,

but also how to grow with it, which is what's so important, and how to grow over time. And the problem with a lot of these mentoring programs is nobody's training the mentors on how to do it well, and no one's really training the mentees on how to do it well. And no one's really training the mentees on how to do it well. So it just becomes this very awkward of let's just stuff people together and see what happens. There needs to be some sort of accountability. There needs to be some sort of tracking. Is Tyler mentoring people who all go on to succeed? Or is Tyler mentoring someone and nothing ever

happens with all the people that he's mentoring? We need to start looking at those metrics and then developing people so that they can be even better mentors and more effective mentees. You actually write that a dedication and advocacy to a mentoring program is kind of critical to be seen across the entire organization at every level of the hierarchy people need to advocate for and support these systems. This goes back to what you're saying about having conversations with those folks and kind of learning what it is that they're interested in solving and how they problem solve.

At the people manager level, for instance, your managers need to be able to speak to those high achievers and probably learn what would make the most sense from a mentorship angle, but also at the highest level of the hierarchy, the executives and directors, they also need to believe in the process of this. Yeah, look, we don't want it to just be something that's on paper.

We have a mentoring program, that's great, but if no one really does anything with it then all you do is you have a checkbox. You haven't really helped anyone. You haven't developed anyone and if you really want to create this internal mobility within your organization you can't just have something that goes on a checklist. You actually have to make it work and work for you. And my co-author, Andy LaPotta and I firmly believe that everyone in the organization should both have a mentor and be a mentor to somebody else. And this includes the CEO. We actually wrote a piece in Fast Company about why the CEO needs a mentor as well,

because it's lonely at the top, and where are they going to go for guidance and advice? So everyone at every level would benefit from having a mentor. And if people see that the CEO is buying into this, then they're going to want it as well. People always say, who can possibly coach LeBron James, the guy practically coaches the teams that he's on.

But I think those of us who have played the sport and who've worked with coaches and mentors, like you have understand what's really going on there. And did we not just see Steve Kerr do it at the Olympics? And you know what? And I think what he did is a great question for L&D. He took incredible people, right? He took a bunch of high achievers, put them together. But he put together a team that didn't have a culture

and he had to instantly create one. And I still wanna talk to him about how he did that, but that's what he had to do. Having a bunch of great people is not enough. Getting them to work together is what's so critical. Yeah. In fact, I would say there was probably some animosity among some of the players on that team at the end of the day with the rivalries that they have in the NBA.

Hopefully nothing too severe, but you had many different generations of basketball players, different types of skill sets based on how long they've been playing and how new they are to the league and they came away with the gold. So I do think that's a phenomenal exemplar for sure. You do describe the difference between mentors and coaches and other categories of you know, one-on-one advisory, I guess I would say, sponsors, for instance. Yeah, consulting, you know, there are different terms that can be considered when helping somebody individually. Can we go over kind of what exactly actually makes a mentor?

Yeah, sure. So we differentiate between the different labels that people might have heard. And it's really just a vocabulary lesson. At the end of the day, I'm not sure that the labels matter. I just think that you need all these kinds of people in your life to help you succeed. So as an example, a role model is someone you want to become even if you'll never meet

them, right? So a lot of these people who are good in basketball may say, I want to be LeBron James, that they might say that, right? I do a lot of qualitative research? I do a lot of qualitative research. I do a lot of interviewing. I say to me, someone who I look up to as a role model, even though she's not a qualitative researcher, but I think she's an incredible interviewer is Oprah Winfrey. I've never met her. I'm getting closer, but I haven't met her. But I think learning from her how to interview someone and really dial in and make them feel like

they're most the most important person in the room is a critical skill. So that's role model. A mentor is somebody who is your guide by your side. They see things, they see that potential in you that you don't yet see in yourself and they are able to pull you up and push you forward. So as I said earlier, they can see beyond the horizon that you can see for yourself. And then, so we have a role model, we have a mentor. Next we have a coach. Now a mentor is usually a long-term engagement, and at least in the United States,

they're usually not paid. A coach is paid. They are a, it's a short-term engagement usually to work on specific skills. So for example I gave my TED talk, I hired a coach to help me with that storytelling for the TED talk. TED talk was over, that engagement was over. So it's to help you with something very very specific. As I said they are paid, the good ones are paid well. So we have role model, mentor, coach, and sponsor. The sponsor is somebody who talks about you even when you're not in the room. They'll say, Ruth is really great. I think she

should be up for the promotion or for the award or for the opportunity or whatever it is. They might blast your achievements on social media so that everyone in their network can hear about it as well. So these are some of the things that everyone can be all of these things, right? And you need all of these people to help propel your career forward. Simon Fordham is somebody that you quote in the book as well, who describes mentoring as kind of flowing in between his idea of consulting and coaching., who describes mentoring as kind of flowing in between his idea of consulting and coaching.

And he describes consulting as telling first and coaching as listening first. And it's kind of going in between those things, mentoring according to him. Do you agree with that to some extent? Is that why you're citing him there? And that's interesting because he ran the Society of Business Mentors in the UK,

which is a very interesting model, because as I said, in Europe, mentors are the UK, which is a very interesting model because as I said in Europe, mentors are often paid, whereas in the US they are not. This is one of the principles of high achievers, being a mentor and also having a mentor, but also continuous learning in an informal manner, I think is how you describe it, is a big part of the success factor as well. This goes back to my initial question of how do we give them the amount of resources that in an informal manner, I think is how you describe it, is a big part of the success factor as well. This goes back to my initial question of, you know, how do we give them the amount of resources that is perfect for a degree of autonomy, but also guidance within the organizational goals, so they can sort of

achieve that innovative solution to whatever it is they're trying to solve. I also want to ask you, you have a doctorate in continued adult learning. And I would like to go over some of the key principles that differentiate childhood developmental learning, school learning, to adult learning, as you and I are experiencing it now. Because there's some really key differences, such as the need for immediate motivation and just how it is that we're absorbing

the information that we take in. Can we go over some of those big principles? Absolutely. So look, we know for children, which is that's where the term pedagogy is for children. Actually, it's not for adults. It's androgogy for adults. For children, it's you go to class, you learn from the teacher, it's expanding now because we have YouTube and tik tok and all these other things.

Of course. But you need to learn things according to a curriculum. For adults, it's very different. For us to really understand things and learn things and have it resonate with us, it needs to be relevant to who we are and where we are right now and what we need right now. That's how it's going to stick.

That's how it's going to work. So for example, the people who are listening to this podcast right now podcast is an informal way of learning. You don't have to go to school and get a doctorate and or any degree at this point in your life. There's so many other ways that you can learn. This podcast is a great one reading books, reading articles, webinars, etc. So as people are listening, they are listening to our conversation and they're waiting for the hook of how is this relevant to me?

Because the second it's relevant to them, they're going to remember it because it's what they need right now. So maybe it's that conversation about the passion audit. Maybe it's the conversation of providing resources to high achievers. Maybe it's the mentor who turns into a tormentor. Everyone who's listening has something else that they need, but the second is relevant to them, that's when it becomes resonant.

So we continue our chat so we can reach more people. Another principle that I actually found rather counterintuitive in the way that you illustrate it is how you describe resilience. So obviously high achievers must be resilient and they treat failure as sort of a learning experience. But one thing that you wrote is that there are studies that actually identify that those who fail early

are more likely to achieve highly than those who succeed early and often. Can you explain why that is? Yeah. Look, if you have success and you've gotten that Olympic medal when you're 16, now what? Right? But if you had to really work for it harder, you didn't get it, but you were getting closer each time, you can taste it.

You want to work so hard for it. And there's actually research that was published in Nature by actually somebody who was in my thinker's 50 radar class. And he said that according to his research, those who got success early on long term were not as successful compared to those who failed first and then reapplied and tried. It's almost like the failure is built into the system. If you didn't get it the first time, are you going to reapply? Because if you do, you have a higher likelihood of getting it. And he saw that with scientists, he saw that with startups, and sadly he saw that with terrorists.

That's fascinating. Does this mean that theoretically as leaders in organizations, we should set our folks up for failure early on so they get a little taste of what it means to problem-solve in that way? I don't want to be a Machiavellian about it, but what do you think about that? No, no, no, no. Look, I think there's enough stumbling blocks along the way. You don't need to throw extra ones, right? You know, I was watching the steeplechase during the Olympics where they have to climb over this and jump in the water of that. Like we don't need to do that in the workplace, right? There's enough of them. Okay. But here's what happens. It's really how they overcome those challenges. In the book, The Success Factor, I give the example of Dr. Peggy Whitson, who's a biochemist. Not everyone

who works at NASA is an astronaut. She was a biochemist and she would see the astronauts coming in and out. And when she saw the landing on the moon, that sort of triggered something for her. I want to be like those people. So the second that they allowed women to apply, she applied and was rejected and applied again and was rejected and applied again and was rejected. And this rejection reapply cycle went on for a full decade. Now, I don't know about you, I would not apply for the same job for 10 years. I get it, once or twice, not the right fit, move on. No, she kept applying and I said,

why in the world would you apply for the same job over and over again? And she said to me, Ruth, she said, the question was never if I was going to become an astronaut I knew I would become one the question was how what are they looking for that I haven't shown them yet and that's what I need to figure out and every time I apply I close that gap more and more and more and it's a good thing that she got accepted because ultimately she became an astronaut. She also became the first female commander

of the International Space Station, a role she held twice. She spent more days in space than any American astronaut of any gender. And this woman who was rejected for 10 years ultimately went on to become NASA's chief astronaut. So it's not a question of if, it's a question of how. That's how we look at resilience.

I had a roommate many years ago who applied, I think, three or four consecutive years to get into med school. And when it finally worked out, she went and she's now a doctor. And it was the same exact thing. It was never, you know, if. It was just, I got to do it again. And, you And you know here we are full doctor now, so that's right speaking of biochemists and scientists they are a good example of that you cite in the book of folks who

Establish their foundational skills and continually return to them, which is another one of the principles for high achievers So my wife is a doctor of neuroscience. Every morning I wake up, she is already reading a study, some sort of study on biomedical sciences. And she is very obviously, to me at least, an example of a very high achiever. I think this is the kind of thing that you talk about, the Nobel Prize winners doing

is they're always reading studies. They're going back to that sort of base knowledge, base skillset that they have and they're practicing it continually. I think athletes are very well known for doing this too, the same sorts of warmups before they go into games and all of that. Can you just elaborate a little bit on the importance of having that foundational skill set? Yeah.

And by the way, all of us science, basic scientists and social scientists alike, we have alerts so that whenever a new article comes out on our topic, we're reading it right away. Which I know sounds bizarre to most people, but we geek out on this. I get sneaker alerts. That's an idea of how I achieve it. You see the difference?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, look, I was just watching the other day Simone Biles, her show on Netflix. I think it was called Simone Biles Rising. And she had the whole thing at Tokyo. And she took off for a while. And then she said, no, I want to start going back to the gym. I want to start seeing if I'm ready to compete again in the Paris Olympics. And you know what she did? The same warm-up

routines back to the basics. She said you always go back to the basics. And I don't care if you're an athlete or a lawyer or whatever field that you're from, the second you go back to the basics and you reinforce that is how you're going to grow because you're not letting your foundation crack. And I share the story and the success factor of Neil Katyal, who is a lawyer. But unlike most lawyers, he argued now, last I checked, it was 50 cases before the Supreme Court of the United States. Most lawyers don't even do one.

And when I interviewed him, I said, Neil, how do you prepare for these cases? And he said, I do the same three things. I've done it for every single case. The first thing I do is I prepare a binder that has the answer to every possible question I might get asked. And in 50 cases, he's never once opened that binder, but that just preparing that binder prepared him for the case. And the second thing he does is multiple moot courts. Moot courts are like a simulated environment to practice and refine his arguments.

And last but not least, the night before the opening arguments, he goes into his children's bedroom and their bedtime story becomes the opening arguments because he said, if a child can understand it, the court can understand it. And in 50 cases, he has not wavered from doing those three things. So as I said, if you're a lawyer or an athlete doing the same warmup, right? The same warmup, the same layups that you see all these NBA athletes doing, you could see in any junior high gym. The scientists are still designing experiments.

They're not outsourcing that. That's why I mean, you always go back to your foundation and you're constantly reinforcing it. Devil's advocate, do you think his kids enjoy hearing the opening arguments before bed every night? Probably not. They're gonna be the greatest litigators of all time when they grow up, I'll throw that out there.

They're gonna have good careers if that's the path they choose to go, if it doesn't deter them too much. You know, when my kids were younger, every night at dinner, I would say one thing, you know, one professional development, career development kind of thing or a story, or could you believe someone did this and I explained why you do it, why you don't do it. And finally, they got older and they said, Mom, can we have one dinner without a professional

development conversation? Sounds like that's when they hit their teen years, perhaps, and they got sick of it. one dinner without a professional development conversation. Sounds like that's when they hit 13 years perhaps and they got sick of it, but they will relish that in the future, I'm sure. Yeah, they turned out all right. Okay, that's good. So I do have to ask about this. The world has changed radically in the last few years.

We're in the post pandemic world. We're very decentralized now and we're working differently than we were five years ago when many of these high achievers were on their path to becoming high achievers. It's a lot harder to access our foundational skills in a lot of ways. I think just the fact that we are, you know,

a lot of people aren't in offices anymore, their routines have been disrupted because now they are working in a home office and they're just surrounded instead of by a professional environment, their families and different maybe sources of motivation and activation. It's just I think it's just harder to sort of practice those things if we're not sort of compartmentalizing our professional selves in that sort of way. So how can organizations and their leaders encourage people to continue to pursue

their foundational skills and keep that a part of their routine? I think you absolutely can. If it's virtual, I might even argue that there might be fewer distractions, right? You don't have somebody who's knocking on your door to tell you just one more thing, right? That's true.

That you can really focus on some of those things. You can take the time to take a LinkedIn learning course or read an article without hearing somebody outside your office come in and, you know, we have so many distractions in the office that it's hard to do that head down, deep down work. Um, I know my writing is always done on virtual days. It's almost impossible to do it. When you hear the copier going off and you hear all those other distractions,

look, if the Olympics were postponed for a year in 2020, they went from 2020 to 2021, the athletes, remember we didn't leave our home, remember that time? They couldn't get to their gym, but yet they couldn't meet with their coaches, The athletes, remember we didn't leave our home, remember that time? They couldn't get to their gym, but yet they couldn't meet with their coaches, they couldn't meet with their nutritionists, but yet I don't know of a single athlete who dropped out, who said, I'm not doing this for another year.

They all found a way to make it work. And one of the things that worked so well was the consistent routine. I'm waking up at this hour, I'm taking a shower, I'm getting dressed, and this is how I'm starting my day. And when you have that routine going, you will see that you can really double down and really strengthen that foundation because part of that foundation is that routine and the consistency. I think we're butting up against the common idea in business, which is that certain things

are cost centers and not profit centers. And unfortunately, L&D and certain kinds of training, especially informal ones, are often viewed as, you know, they're not critical. And in general, employees and people just don't really see these things as part of their work. They don't see learning as part of their work. I think in most organizations, people don't see mentorship as part of their work. And I think that's why you described the importance

of having every level of the hierarchy dedicated to these things and advocating for them. But do you see people having to overcome that barrier as well where we're just not really taking it as a part of what we need to do to further our organization and then to succeed? Absolutely. And it's easy for it to get shoved aside.

The problem is it becomes harder and harder to recruit people if word on the street is that your company is not building their employees. And all the research has shown that those who are mentored out earn and outperform those who are not. They make more money, they get promoted more often, they're five times more likely to get promoted. The mentors are six times more likely to get promoted.

And it is the best retention tool out there because those who are mentored are more loyal to the organization and they're going to stay put because replacing someone is very expensive, but having them stay and be mentored and work and get promoted and create succession plans, it's just such a win-win

that there's actually a business case for doing it. It's actually not a cost, it is absolutely an investment that's probably one of the best investments out there. If there's one thing I know from the studies and surveys that I've read, it's that people really highly value professional development programs within organizations that they're looking to work for.

So is it also a talent attraction and talent acquisition tool to have these sorts of programs in place? Absolutely. Because we know that those who are mentored do so well, you want to show that you have these robust programs in place, not just this checklist of, yeah, we have a mentoring program. Oh, we have a mentoring program. And those who have been mentored have been promoted within the organization because we like to promote our own and we have this internal mobility. And when you have these metrics to back it up and when you start publicizing these mentor-mentee pairs or the more contemporary approach of mentoring teams, that's when you will start

seeing the benefits of this. One thing I also remember from our pre-chat that we had before we started recording is that, you pointed out the thing that's probably more intuitive is that high achievers are probably surrounding themselves with high achievers as well. So, once those people really see that their organization is giving them strong opportunities,

they're going to let their friends know and let their former colleagues and acquaintances know this organization is really pushing me forward. Is that a factor in this as well? A hundred percent. Look, I want to tell you something. I interviewed a Nobel Prize winner and he said to me, yeah, you know, I know all the other Nobel Prize winners.

We all know each other. We get together, et cetera. And I interviewed this astronaut. He said, yeah, everyone I know is an astronaut, right? Like it's no big deal. That's their normal. And the astronaut said, well, I've never met a Nobel Prize winner. And the Nobel Prize winner said, well, I never met an astronaut. Well, obviously I could fix that. But the reason I'm sharing this story is because people know others who are just like them. The high achiever, high achieving salesperson, marketing person, engineer, whatever it is, who do you think they're hanging out with? Other people who are just like

them, who get them because they get each other. That drive just feeds off of them. So when there's an open position, they're going to recruit their friends and their friends are going to be hearing all the stories about how they were developed and supported within the organization. They'll say, I want some of that. It becomes an excellent, not just a retention tool, as we said, but a great recruitment tool as well. So before we wrap up, I have one more question that this kept popping up in the success factor.

And it's a quote I think you heard from maybe one of your mentors or maybe somewhere else, but it's do something important, not just interesting. I'd like for you to just explain that really quickly if you don't mind. Yeah, actually two different people told me that same thing on two different occasions. I was 43 when I went back to school to get my doctorate. And when I told my mentor about it,

and I told him what I wanted to do my research on and it was going to be an institutional pilot study comparing two years and he said to me you're looking at things in a way no one has ever looked at it before. Do something important not just interesting because the second it's important you'll be able to help people you've never had the opportunity to meet and it will have a ripple effect. A couple of years later, I got to interview Dr. Tony Fauci for my research. And obviously everyone knows him from the whole,

from his work with COVID, but long before COVID, he was working on HIV and AIDS and Zika and SARS and Ebola and all the major infectious diseases. And I said, Dr. Fauci, I said, there's so many infectious diseases. How do you know which ones to focus on? And he said, I do something that's important, not just interesting, Because when it's important, it'll have the ripple effect. It'll help millions upon millions of people that I will never meet. And that is why I went into science. And now I had two different people who told me the same thing. And now whenever I do a book signing for the Financial Times Guide to Mentoring, I

don't just sign my name. I always write, do something important, not just interesting. Passing it on. I love that. I lied. I actually have one more final question because I do want to ask about how you found your mentors. There are high achievers out there that don't want to wait for their organization to give them access to the right mentor or to let them take care of it. They want to do it themselves and they want to have the right community of mentors around them. You have spoken at length about your mentors. They're a huge factor in your writing and what you've done to this day.

What are the kinds of spaces that you've put yourself in? What are the methods that you've used to find those people and then create these relationships ultimately? Yeah, and you know, it's not just me. 61% of mentoring relationships happen organically. We don't wait to be assigned because, as I said, the assignments have been random and not ideal. But what we can do is wherever we meet interesting people, how do we can meet potential mentors? The problem is most people go into these situations and they put all this pressure on themselves of, okay, I'm going to this reception,

I need to find a mentor. No, you don't. You just need to meet somebody who's interesting. You don't go into a room and say, I'm gonna find my new best friend, or I'm going to find my soulmate when I walk into this room. You're not gonna do that.

The same thing with a mentor. You just wanna find interesting people that you just gel with and have that relationship develop over time. And then when you are ready, you approach that person and say, Tyler, I know that you do podcasts. I'm thinking of doing podcasts.

I have done all of this work already. I think I'm missing something. Could I grab 20, 30 minutes of your time? I'd like to show you what I've done already. Maybe you can tell me what it is that I am missing. Now you can have a conversation, intelligent conversation. The mentor has seen that you have already

put in the legwork, done the has seen that you have already put in the legwork, done the work. You don't just walk into the room and say, Tyler help me with my career, because where do you even start with something like that? But when you say it's something very specific and contextual and I tell you how much time I need and I show you the work that I've done, now the mentor's excited. Now they want to help you. And half of the Nobel Prize winners have been trained by other Nobel Prize winners because people recognize that curiosity, that strive for excellence,

that ability to wanna learn more. People wanna help those diamonds in the rough, but you have to show them that you are a diamond in the rough so that they can help make you shine. I agree. In my life, I think most of the most valuable relationships have developed organically as well. So I like starting there.

You never know where to lead. Of course. Before I let you go, can you just let our audience know where they can learn more about you and perhaps contact you if they wanna learn more? Absolutely. So everyone, you've heard about the two new books, The Success Factor,

which is about high achievements, and The Financial Time Guide to Mentoring, which is all about mentoring, which I wrote with Andy Lapada. If you want to follow and hear more about this, just go to my website, RuthGotian.com and of course on LinkedIn as well. Thank you so much, Ruth. This was a wonderful conversation. And for everybody listening at RuthGotian.com and of course on LinkedIn as well. Thank you so much Ruth. This was a wonderful conversation and for everybody listening at home, thanks for joining. We will catch you on the next episode. Cheers.

You've been listening to L&D in Action, a show from Get Abstract. Subscribe to the show and your favorite podcast player to make sure you never miss an episode. And don't forget to give us a rating, leave a comment and share the episodes you love. Help us keep delivering the conversations that turn learning into action. Until next time.