L&D In Action: Winning Strategies from Learning Leaders - Inspiring Confidence: Supportive Leadership for a New Generation of Social-Professional Challenges

Episode Date: June 20, 2023

In this episode of L&D in Action, we speak with coach, speaker and author of Quick Confidence, Selena Rezvani. As a consultant to the Fortune 500, Selena trains some of the brightest minds in business on self-advocacy and inclusive leadership behaviors. Today, we address growing mental health issues among workers, as reported by The Conference Board. Selena promotes a warmth-first approach to leadership that empowers individuals to advocate for themselves and forothers.

You're listening to L&D in Action, winning strategies from learning leaders. This podcast, presented by GetAbstract, brings together the brightest minds in learning and development to discuss the best strategies for fostering employee engagement, maximizing potential, and building a culture of learning in your organization. With an eye on the future and a preference for the practical, we address the most important developments in edtech, leadership strategy, and workflow learning. Let's dive in. Hello, and welcome to L&D in Action. I'm your host, Tyler Lay, and today I'm speaking with consultant, speaker, and author, Selena Rezvani. Selena, thanks so much for joining me today.

Tyler, thank you for having me. Can you tell our listeners really quickly a bit about your background and what it is that you do today? So I have the pleasure of training some of the brightest minds in business from the World Bank to Under Armour to individuals at Microsoft on self-advocacy at work, you know, developing that confident presence and even helping people with inclusive leadership behaviors, you know, giving other people that vote of confidence that we all need. So it's a real joy to train, coach professionals at all levels. Great. And speaking of confidence, I believe congratulations are in order because just last month you published a brand new book. So I actually recently wrote the book Quick Confidence. And I wrote that book because for a long time in my career, I felt like

that very good, but second or third choice job candidate. And it wasn't so much because of a lack of competence as much as it was confidence, Tyler, and maybe some others who are listening can relate to that experience. And so for me, it really wasn't until I dedicated myself to developing confidence, you know, in small bite-sized ways that it really changed my life. And so I wrote this book, Quick Confidence, because, you know, most of us don't have a lifetime to build our confidence up and take those bold actions. So very excited to share that with the world today and bring my leadership development training into that work. I can't think of a better person to speak with today than you, to be honest with you,

Selena, because about a week ago, I think the conference board released their most recent workforce survey. They do this, I think, quarterly or maybe semi-annually. They release statistics on the feelings of people in all sorts of different positions, a lot of individual contributors, but also leaders. And generally, they find some way to kind of direct the results of that survey. And this time around, there was enough data to show that people are just not feeling great at work. You know, we've all been dealing with this for a while now. But in the last six months, the numbers have

gotten distinctly worse, it seems. I have some stats here, actually. So 34% say that their level of mental health is lower than it was six months ago. 37% say their sense of belonging is lower. So that's more than a third. I think that's pretty significant out of about 1,100 people. Also, 43% of millennials say their engagement level has decreased in the last six months. So things are dropping here. And there were some notes about, I think about half of respondents said that this was related to their workload. So workload is increasing, but I think there's a lot going on right now. You know, we all know there's a lot going on right now, especially if you spend time on LinkedIn, you see all the reports and just following the news layoffs and everything. But

what would you say? What do you think is going on right now? I'd love to hear your take on all of this. Yeah, well, one of the things we are seeing, just like you've laid out for us, is that there is a decrease in confidence, you know, this sense that you can personally make an impact or affect change. And it's most likely to affect the youngest workers in the workforce. And so I think some of that comes from the pandemic, right? Social isolation, feeling kind of rusty in terms of collaborating with others or socializing around others, like who among us doesn't feel some of that? But I think this is especially tough if you are Gen Z or even Gen Y, and you might have fewer coping mechanisms, you know, fewer coping kind of tools at your disposal,

let's say, than a boomer or a Gen Xer who has kind of more places to turn, turn to for resilience, be that support net, professional resources, you know, even kind of therapy and mental health resources. So it's really an unfortunate thing to see. But I think there's one other really important element, Tyler, which is there's this rift right now between Gen Z and the other generations in terms of wanting to return to the office. And the youngest workers, Gen Z, are most likely to want to be there to experience work firsthand, you know, to shadow, to observe others, you know, to really learn and get their hands dirty. And I think that's also adding to this lower confidence, this isolated feel among the youngest workers. They can't get in there and kind of engage in

the workplace they've been imagining. I'm on the younger end of the millennial generation myself, and I feel that very much so. I mean, I've been working remotely in some capacity at pretty much every career that I've had. And I've always sort of felt the desire to be around people and to be working with a team and that sort of thing. And I'm very fortunate now to have a very active and very successful remote team. But I think I feel that I definitely feel that especially when, you know, it's what I saw growing up. It's what most of us kind of think of as work is going into the office and that sort of thing.

But one thing that's really important here is that, you know, we're seeing decreased levels of engagement at the end of the day. And this is a really important topic for, you know, learning leaders and L&D folks who are trying to increase engagement. And especially, I would say, leaders of small teams. And I would like to go into your book a little bit. Very early on, you cite Amy Cuddy's research, which I'm very familiar with. She's done a lot of incredible research on this

sort of thing. And she advises, or the way you put it is that you have to connect first and then lead. And warmth is one of the most important characteristics of successful leaders. And I get the feeling that it's, I mean, it's not just the individual contributors that are really struggling these days. Leaders are having as much of a tough time dealing with all that's going on in society right now. And that makes it harder to lead because it makes it harder to embrace warmth and be that way. So what do you think that leaders should do to really, to give that opportunity to their team members to feel better and more engaged about the work they're doing when it's so hard to feel that way themselves? Yeah, I have a lot of empathy right now for managers. This is not an easy job with a disengaged,

tired, you know, often overburdened workforce, right? And so I think it's so important to bring that warmth and caring rather than thinking, let me knock their socks off with my intellect and the gymnastics I can do, you know, mentally, you know, bringing that caring and warmth. And so I think there are a few ways we can do that just on a physical level, generously listening. So whether that's over a Zoom check-in or we happen to be in the office or at a coffee shop, you know, whatever it is, really making that person feel heard, you know, not having your phone out, giving them your eye contact, nodding to kind of show, I understand and I want to encourage you, you know, please continue, tell me more, is a lot of times what that body language conveys. But of course, there are verbal things we can do. How about asking those genuine,

curious follow-up questions? You know, maybe you're telling me, Tyler, about how it's been going this week, you know, grabbing hold of your last point and asking you to go, you know, more deeply into that, something you're genuinely curious about and want to know more about. I think a big one, you know, let's say we have a new leader trying to make that positive connection and first impression is to express some empathy, you know, as you're getting to know people, you know, maybe I'm getting to know you, Tyler, and I'm saying something like, wow, social media and marketing, you know, I imagine that's a lot of moving parts to manage.

Let me tell you, you know, yeah, exactly. Right. Or, you know, someone's telling me about their territory. Wow. I imagine that's a large territory to cover, to oversee, you know, showing that you've heard them and you recognize maybe all that they're in charge of, that they're taking care of. And I think giving sincere compliments. You know, I remember meeting a person at a conference and thinking, like, your enthusiasm about being at this conference is contagious. You know, it's making me more excited to be here. So how about that? You know, kind of just praising those genuine moments when you're meeting somebody or getting to know them. And here's one thing I think is really important when you're engaging with the younger generations, which is one of the things I hear on social media,

and I talk about this in my book, Quick Confidence, is some younger generations, they don't necessarily want that super chummy relationship with their manager that's full of self-disclosure. You know, like, let me tell you everything about me and what I did this weekend. In fact, there's a lot of appreciation for boundaries. So of course, I recommend getting to know the individual and starting there, but let the employees set the tone, you know, around how much sharing there's going to be in terms of your personal life. Maybe they don't want to tell you what they're doing on their paid time off day,

their personal day. If they want to tell you, they'll let you know. But I think great managers can kind of say, yes, I approved your request. Enjoy your day off. You know, let the employee decide if they're going to share. I think the next step up from this is establishing belonging, which has made its way into the DEI acronym these days, diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging. And you have done incredible work as a leader of women and as a woman of color yourself. And it's difficult for a lot of leaders to take the right steps to establish belonging when it comes to things like diversity, equity, and inclusion, especially because it's a complicated conversation.

Let's be honest. It's a complicated conversation. But I think a lot of managers and leaders are trying to avoid, first of all, focusing on difference and kind of making that the center of the conversation when oftentimes it's the work that one does that should be most important in the context of which we work, but also avoiding making sure that we don't exoticize people and making sure that we can find commonality at the end of the day instead of, you know, really harping on the differences and making those the center of the conversation. So what do you say about this? What kind of practices can we take that seek belonging among diverse teams

without kind of doing it the wrong way and making people uncomfortable, but making sure that we're actually making inroads for those who might not be the most represented group in that team? Yeah, I think so much of this, of giving other people those votes of confidence, is helping them be seen, heard, and included. I think that's really the foundation of that sense of belonging, that wonderful high trust environment, right? Where you really feel seen for what you bring and who you are, and you're part of that ongoing feedback loop. So one of the things I tell people and like to encourage is look at some of your hero stories. You know, every company tells hero stories. They might be up on the

website, you know, talking about the employees that work there, or they might be kind of more lore that's passed around, you know, from more tenured employees to newer ones. One of the things I find is they're often about the person who did the impossible, you know, and they might glorify things without us totally realizing it. Like a lot of the stories I notice when I go into corporations glorify overwork. You know, this person flew to Chicago on a Saturday, did the impossible, you know, helped our bleeding satellite business and saved the day, right? You know, kind of turning themselves into a pretzel in the process. And so check your hero stories, really make a point to celebrate different kinds of individuals and contributors in your

organization. You know, how about the dad who is doing an excellent job and leaves loudly at 5pm every day and is really great at encouraging other people on his team to take care of their personal life needs, their family involvement? How about the worker who is maybe a younger worker who's getting their MBA at night and doing really interesting things to connect their learning, you know, to their organization or the vitality or the future of the organization? The individual who's made a difference with an employee resource group around belonging and diversity. So I think we can widen that net of things we celebrate and make people feel they belong. I think there's some other little micro validations we can give people to say you 400% belong here. Making introductions early in their tenure to really help make sure they

are cemented, not one year from now or three years from now, but early on that they've met some really important key influential players within the organization, getting to know their resume. I think some really wonderful allies and inclusive leaders, excellent learning leaders that I've known do this, you know, so they might get to know that person's resume and give them an awesome introduction, really be a raving fan. You know, Rachel has actually managed five end-to-end projects just like this, and we're really excited to have her on the team. It's a different way to introduce somebody than, hey, welcome. Yeah. You know, so.

Use X's name and role. Exactly. Get to know each other as you wish. That's right. And you already have some influence, chances are, in that organization. So your words mean something. I think creating that ongoing dialogue with people is a great way to make them feel they belong. You know, Tyler, what do you think about the direction of the initiative? You know, publicly asking-

Put me on the spot. Yeah, that's true. I did. But look, it shows that you matter, your opinion matters, and trusting them, you know, trusting them to kind of own their projects. And, you know, I'd say one of the other things that's really important here is, you know, just being willing to share your own story. to share your own story. Most leaders didn't feel they fully belonged at one point. Being open about that can go a long way. Absolutely. I love all of these ideas. It's important to note, also, the conference board did put out a statistic on this one too. About 40% of individual contributors do not feel comfortable speaking to their manager, specifically about their mental health, I think was the question. But I think that's a good indicator of the comfort that people have with their managers when it comes to just difficult topics overall. That could be anything from advancing to giving feedback on a project or direction of an initiative,

like you were saying. But I think there's a pretty clear divide here that employees are not feeling great about going to their superiors right now. And I think that needs to change. And a part of that is absolutely establishing confidence and, you know, building out within oneself. But the other part, I think needs to come from the top, as you're describing here. The other question, though, I think there's kind of a third direction that we can go here, which is sort of parallel advocacy and allyship, which you talk about in the book as well, how can leaders sponsor or encourage that sort of behavior where teams are looking out for each other more? There's always,

you know, a good amount of healthy competition is good, but when it comes to people that work with each other frequently and, you know, work alongside each other, how can we encourage allyship so that we can identify those moments of struggle and we can work alongside each other? How can we encourage allyship so that we can identify those moments of struggle and we can work with each other to actually go and speak to our managers when it might be hard for just one person to do that alone? Any advice in that direction? Yeah, this is such a beautiful question too. So I love that you are creating a space for this, but I think there's so much we can do in the moment, even when we don't have positional power or authority, let's say, over a group or team.

But maybe we are parallel. You know, we're right there next to the person and we're observing something. Someone's being overlooked. Someone's being treated as though they're invisible. So I think one of the things is noticing those moments, noticing those diminishing moments and saying something like you see somebody maybe being talked over. Laura, I'd really like to hear the rest of your idea. You know, please continue.

So redirecting focus back to that person, you know, I think another one is defending, maybe shielding that individual from critics. You know, we've all been in a meeting where people might be very quick to shoot down ideas. You know, you might be the voice who says something like, wait a minute, let's hear this idea out. You know, like, let's give it its due. it, let's hear this idea out. You know, like, let's give it its due. That's a little micro moment where we can change the momentum, deferring to somebody's abilities. You know, I think sometimes there will be a person for whatever reason, that's given a much shorter leash. You know, there may be micromanaged, maybe because they're younger, or maybe because they're newer to the team, and instead coming from a position of trust. You know, you might say something like,

you know, I actually don't think we need to weigh in on Monday's event. Like, I trust Ramona to handle it, to oversee it. People will never forget you for doing these actions, People will never forget you for doing these actions because they may seem really small, but they're not for the person on the receiving end of them. And I think one other thing is just recognizing people. This is not like wizardry and magic to recognize somebody, but I like to encourage people when you recognize someone positively out loud, you know, make sure that there's some way they can repeat that behavior. But it's not just like, Tyler, great job. Tyler, thanks for your help. You know, but it's something that is more specific. You know, Tyler, you just made a

connection about A and B that had never occurred to me. Like, thank you. That is a really important connection point. Help them do it again. You know, help them pave the way to do more of that great behavior. Another thing that you discuss is power sharing. Can you talk about that a little bit as well? I think you're touching on that briefly, but I'd love to hear you expand on that.

Yeah, power sharing is important because power dynamics are a constant at work. And sometimes when I say this, you know, bosses, managers will say like, but I'm not that kind of boss. You know, I'm not the power hungry, you know, ego driven boss. And one of the things I'll say to them is I get that. But employees know, at any given moment, you still have the ability to drive how they're viewed within the organization in terms of their performance ratings, their paycheck, you know, to a large extent, their promotion prospects, you know, employees know that. So we have to assume as though power dynamics are present.

And I think it's really important that we go out of our way to power share, you know, to be more transparent. This is something Gen Z and millennials are demanding more of. They want more transparency in their employers, not less. So I think this can be as simple as explaining the why, you know, for a change, you're implementing a change, not withholding that reasoning, where employees are like, Oh, I have no idea where this is coming from, or why, but making it a habit to explain the why this is is going to help us be more competitive or better track our time management, whatever it may be. Moving from kind of unilateral decisions, because I said so, you know, that's why, to seeking people's feedback and opinions more, particularly

when the change affects them. You know, like what an important but basic form of power sharing, you know, that means something to all of us. And I think one more is just the availability of information. I worked on a study at one point around stretch assignments. And one of the perceptions we kind of revealed and discovered in that study was that people tend to think the most coveted stretch assignments are given to people who are handpicked, you know, for those opportunities, that it's behind closed doors or maybe on a golf course, you know, that those exciting opportunities are handed out. And so I think one of the things we can do

is make that less political, bring a little more sunlight to that process. And I love that Cisco did that. They created this gig marketplace where they advertised stretch opportunities for everyone. So I think that's one more great example of power sharing versus hoarding. I'm hearing a lot about gig marketplaces these days, especially at larger companies

for stretch opportunities, as well as just, you know, kind of career shift opportunities sometimes, or it's a things are moving so rapidly because of tech and AI right now that if you have a skill set that you think you could transfer over here, here's an opportunity to spend, you know, 20% on something and, you something in development or in sales or a totally different department. And that seems to be a way of maybe actually getting people more engaged, giving them the opportunity to really refine what it is that they're doing and the direction they're going. Have you seen more examples of this that are really helping employees kind of find their way?

Not as many as I'd like, to be honest with you. I really haven't seen as many. And I think we need to shift to more of cafeteria style approach, you know, to learning and development because Gen Z doesn't want to wait. They don't want to have to clear the hurdle that maybe boomers or Gen X had to clear, you know, perform as an analyst for three years in this capacity before getting to go become a senior analyst. Exactly. And having the joy of becoming a senior analyst and finally going to the client site. And so I'd like to see more of this. And I think we're seeing disengagement in part because growth and development is slow. Yeah, it's very stagnant. A lot of what you have talked about so far

goes toward fostering psychological safety. So I want to talk about that really quickly. Based on what we've talked about in the past, you do a good amount of activities and you help people build resources and tools specifically for developing psychological safety. And in addition to all the sort of conversational and social behavioral type things that we've already talked about, are there any specific tactics that you advise for building this at a company, for allowing employees to feel like they can give feedback and speak up? Is it, you know, workshops or specific kinds of tools and resources, anything that you particularly advocate for? Yes, there are, you know, more than one way to do this, which is great, different things that we can lean on. And I think one thing is as simple as

developing meeting norms, you know, so that we don't just walk into meeting situations, all with very wildly different ideas of how to be a good teammate or contributor. But we actually lay out what we want, that, you know, we're going to treat everybody with respect, or we're going to, you know, bring evidence or reasoning for our ideas. What I like about this is it creates a safe environment to call out when somebody's not respecting those norms. I think another thing we can do is, you know, when somebody raises a concern, which we know there's some psychological safety there, if somebody's saying, hey, there's a red flag, this might not be the popular view, but I really need to air a concern,

is praise their perceptiveness. You know, thank them on a basic level for being willing to be that voice. In many cases, you know, group think has been catastrophic in so many public examples that you want to praise that person. So it's modeling for someone else that they can do it. How about some things you can do as a leader yourself? I think opening up about a fear you might have when you changed your mind, when you made a mistake, for the greater learning,

being able to share that, wow, are you giving a permission slip to other people that they can share a mistake? They can share an evolution in their thinking. And I think just prioritizing that nonjudgmental behavior, that empathy is huge to build psychological safety. As a leader, in your book, you talk about the scenario where we do introductions. This is an example that you give like a long exercise for when, you know, maybe you're meeting new people at the company or a client or something like that. And, you know, everybody has to go through their introduction and just say a little bit about themselves and how

like weird and nerve wracking and awkward that can sometimes be. And you actually recommend, you know, having this prepared, like go ahead and write your own story, you know, work it out, really spend some time on it. And I feel like this is maybe something that leaders should have ready for their own moments where they expect to be or maybe should be vulnerable to help their own teammates. So something along the lines of, you know, I've been at this company for 10 years. Can I think of three big failures that have happened to me so that when one of my team members has a problem, I can be vulnerable with them. And because I've prepared this story, it won't be awkward or it will be less awkward, hopefully, and it will be more impactful because I've prepared it. Does that make sense? Is that

something that could work as a tactic? Yes. And I really appreciate that because as a leader, Yes. And I really appreciate that because as a leader, you should have some core stories. I think the issue is what happens is so many of us go, oh, well, this story, it's not that special. You know, it's not maybe worthy of being part of my meeting introduction or sharing with the team. But in fact, if you learn something from that, if you changed your mind, if you had an aha moment that was meaningful in some way, chances are good, it will advance your team, it will build connection within your team. So I think part of this is looking for some of those stories where again, your thinking evolved. Looking for some of those stories where, again, your thinking evolved. But how about also a pie in the face moment, you know, where maybe you took the complete wrong approach with a client or a learning program you rolled out. And maybe it was a painful one.

Yes, be willing to share those and practice them. Script them out if you'd like, if it gives you a little more comfort. I'm not the biggest, you know, encourager of scripting, you know, every important conversation. But if it gives you the ability to tell the meaningful moments from that story, that learning opportunity, then do it. You're a very good storyteller yourself based on what I've read from you. And I'd love to hear what you have for specific recommendations when it comes to scripting or even just practicing your story. Anything specific there? Yeah, I think one of them is, thank you for that compliment,

by the way. It means a lot. Of course. Because I was one of those people too who didn't tell stories when I started out as a speaker. And when I started telling them like maybe one-to-one in a conversation like you and I are having now, I'd have people sometimes say to me, hey, that's a really cool story. And so I started integrating them into my speaking engagements and it changed the connection so much with the audience.

So one of the things I like to encourage people to do is make me feel it. You know, like really include your senses, include the five senses. Maybe there's a story where you're talking about receiving a phone call, like paint the picture of your desk or home office where you were sitting. Was it a busy cubicle? Was it your home office that has a different vibe? Is he cubicle? Was it your home office that has a different vibe? Describe it for me.

Let me know about the color. The other thing is, I think it really helps when we zero in on those tension moments. You know, so many good stories have some tension, friction, anticipation. So if you're going to tell me about a time you were really excited about an idea and it got rejected, and maybe you learned something from that, like, take me on that journey to get really excited with you. Like, you know, let me go on that roller coaster ride upward that I want to hear about all the hope and excitement and joy and possibility in this idea. I want to feel invested in it.

And then if you're going to take me to that rejection, I'm going to feel that more if I'm bought in, invested on your side. So I think that's something we can do. We can kind of involve people a little earlier in the story and what was going on and then show them that friction moment. You write about high stakes moments and how we utilize anything from, you know, failures to big successes to, you know, surprises in work. And I want to pinpoint that because I do think that how important moments are framed and how they're received or, you know, reactions to them can

really make or break how impactful they are to those who experienced them. So for instance, you know, somebody could hit a big sales goal, but if it isn't really, you know, it isn't recognized in any way, which you already mentioned, recognition is critical. But if something isn't made of that, then, you know, what does it really matter that much? And I think that's, you know, sales teams, I used to work in sales, we had, you know, semi annual getaway conferences where we would all celebrate our big wins. And it was like, you know, you remember that for a long time, you don't forget that, and it becomes a part of your, your career story. So I think leadership has to make the decision there, somebody has to make the decision as to how those moments are received,

what those moments even are. And I think that there are opportunities for managers and leaders to actually kind of create those and bring them into existence, even in cases where those experiencing moments might not think that they're as significant as they are. So do you think that there are things that we can do as leaders to make these, to bring these into existence? You know, are there ways that we can cultivate opportunities for such moments or, you know, bring these about or just the way that we recognize them? How do you advise leaders go about that? Yeah, I think one of the things we can do to get more of that safety in

stretching and encouraging people to take on high stakes projects and opportunities is to lead with learning a little more often. So often we're talking about a new initiative or a new, so often we're talking about a new initiative or program, and it's all about the goal. And so one of the things I want to encourage people to do is to tie some of their projects and initiatives to learning. You know, that learning in and of itself is going to be really important. This is a first for us collaborating with this other department. So we're really excited to prioritize learning, you know, new tools or techniques to do that. I think including people in some of the anxieties they might feel about stretching, about meeting that high stakes

moment is really important. And there are some examples like Google Ventures has what's called anxiety parties. And it's a, yeah, it really is. Like I actually want an invitation to one of those. That sounds awful and amazing at the same time. Exactly. I know. I feel anxious just thinking about it. And yet I also want to go, but it's a chance to air your concerns, your, you know, your worries maybe about a high stakes thing.

your worries maybe about a high stakes thing. Similarly, when I was at Deloitte, we had these quarterly meetings called fish slappings. And the idea was when you don't address a dead fish, it starts to stink. And so employees would pre-submit their issues that they didn't want to kind of build up and be like corrosive or toxic. So I think it's really exciting how we can involve employees and kind of make them part of rising to these high stakes opportunities, whether it's a huge new client or account that's come in the door. It's a massive change. It's a merger acquisition. come in the door. It's a massive change. It's a merger acquisition. Whatever it is, I think we need employees forefront in that process. Another statistic from the conference board, if you don't mind me returning once more, more than a quarter of workers say that toxic work

culture is having an impact on their mental health, which I guess I'm not too surprised about. But I'd kind of hoped that with all the conversation around this over the past few years, that maybe it would be less than one out of four, basically, that are saying this. So that's a little bit disappointing. Again, not totally surprising, but certainly disappointing. And you've already talked about this in a few ways, but addressing negativity and toxicity, especially among teams interpersonally. This is probably among the hardest things to do as somebody who has direct reports, especially if there's

disagreements within a team or if it's maybe a hierarchical disagreement. Somebody higher up is making a decision that people just don't really support. What kinds of frameworks or mindsets can we establish among our people to help prevent these, you know, kind of proactively or preemptively prevent these things? And then I guess when it actually comes to dealing with them, how do you suggest we go about, you know, eliminating negativity in a safe way? Yeah, you know, I think the worst thing we can do in trying to stop this behavior is to ignore it and hope it'll change on its own. I mean, talk about a morale killer, actual vampire, you know, of good morale, seeing someone go, I'm going to give that

person a pass. I'm going to pretend that never happened. So that's what doesn't work. That's our unadvice of what not to do. But I think one of the things we can do is lean on factual observation. You know, so not innuendo, not assuming I understand that person's intent, but keeping it factual. So maybe saying after a meeting, you know what, John, I noticed you rolled your eyes twice when so-and-so was talking in the meeting. Is there something going on? Like, let's talk about this.

Sometimes people- Don't be afraid to effectively call somebody out. I think you say calling and call out in the book. That's exactly right. And so you have choices about how you do this. In that factual observation moment, I was kind of envisioning that one-to-one with the person, you know, creating that safety toing that one-to-one with the person, you know, creating that safety to address it one-on-one. But there are moments where we might need to use

calling in. That's when we want to get that deeper meaning from the other person. We might say something like, hey, when you just made a comment about the job candidate, what did you mean when you said? And we're trying to get that deeper meaning. What a great way, right, to stop the conversation, pause it, and understand if that really was an off remark or the person meant it a different way. That's different, that calling in than calling out. And that's where sometimes you may need to stop harm right there in its tracks. You might need to say something like, hey, I need to ask you to stop, you know, discontinue saying statements like, or I'm going to have to ask you to leave, introducing a consequence. So I like to share those with people because, you know, there aren't certain

magic words you need to do that. You know, you can stop, you can pause the conversation and ask for more clarity, or you can stop and let the person know, like, this is not cool. This is not okay here. So, you know, sometimes simple is really effective. posts, you I think it was about vibe checking a company as you're in the application process as you're a candidate, and you're assessing, you know, is this going to be a healthy workplace for me? Is this going to match what I'm looking for? And this made me think of a piece that I read recently, I don't know if it was a LinkedIn article, but it was about how brands are being harmed by the fact that recruiting processes are very sloppy lately. And this isn't something that's super new, but the fact that it often takes weeks or more or companies never respond

when they're working with a lot of candidates on a position or something like that. But I think a lot of younger workers have been through this process where they send out a few dozen applications and they only hear back from a couple of those companies that they applied to. And then once they get an interview, they get ghosted by that company or something like that. This is starting to happen. It almost feels like a really bad dating pool with companies. And I've seen memes that equate them in that way. So my question to you is from a recruiter standpoint, an HR standpoint, how can companies be better? What do they need to do? Obviously, you know, just the simplicity of trying to be a good communicator and

using the resources that you have to properly follow up with people. But do you have any other recommendations or advice from an HR perspective, how they can, how companies can be better in this application recruitment process? Yeah, I think if you don't already see recruiting as marketing, because that's what it is, you know, so it may not be in the name or the title, but it's marketing for your company. And that can be wonderful and positive, or it can leave a terrible taste in people's mouth. or it can leave a terrible taste in people's mouth. And so I think one of the things that we need to do more of and normalize is basic accessibility. When a candidate applies, as you mentioned, not ghosting them as a norm, as though they're not people. I mean, there's something dehumanizing about being nothing but a readout from your application tracking system. Yeah, which we put so much time into, you know, like those,

the education that went into that, and then the compiling it and designing it. And then it just gets scanned sometimes by, you know, an automated procedure and then goodbye forever. It is really upsetting to think about. upsetting. And these people are endeavoring just like the employed individuals who are evaluating them once did at one point, maybe recently, maybe long ago. I think the other thing is being open and honest with people. I think that's really important. You know, look, you are among the top candidates right now. Or you know what? There are some misgivings about your credentials. And so, you know, I wouldn't say you're in the top of the candidate pool right now.

There are some concerns about fit. To the extent you can be open and honest with people, it goes a long way. I don't see that a lot. I feel like I don't hear of that or see it almost ever. I mean, I'm sure there are decent enough reasons for it, but it really doesn't seem like it should be too complicated to give a forthright response to, you know, is it worth me continuing on this interview track and having anxiety over asking a recruiter that question? Like, it doesn't seem like it should be that prohibitive of a concept to answer that. I agree with you.

And I actually counsel people who are looking for jobs to like not even put it on their calendar as an interview, but to rename it, to rethink of it as like a fit meeting. It's mutual fit. And you may not be treated as though it is, you know, by a potential employer, but you need to approach it that way. So I think more employers can do that.

They can lead with the idea that this is about a mutual kind of positive overlap. I think the other thing we can do, recruiters need to reduce the amount of hoops and marathon interviews that are expected of employees. I think it's reached a level in some organizations where it's simply too much vetting and it's unnecessary. And I actually recommend that organizations pay people for pre-work. Now, if you're going to ask for prototypes or designs or presentations or reports, you need to pay people for pre-work. Now, if you're going to ask for prototypes or designs or presentations or reports, you need to pay people. My first ever job, I did a marathon interview of full day of

work. It was nine to five. I think I met with 10 people, eight or 10 people, including over lunch. And I got the job and I hope that they never do that again to anybody else. It's like, it was, it was such a wild process and I'm so thrilled that I succeeded. But I just I think it's such a wild way to go about recruiting. And it was for a sales position. You know, I I get it in theory, but it's a lot. And I agree. Pre work is it's work.

And, you know, especially when you probably have other commitments. So you have to kind of rejigger your schedule to fit in what you're doing there. It's, it becomes more than work. It becomes an additional stressor that deserves compensation in some way. So I think that's a great point, a very important message. Right. You must've wanted to invite, like, why don't I bring my second grade teacher and my mom and dad? It seems like you need to know everything about me there is to know, right? If you're going to send eight people to interview me, I'm going to bring eight people to back me up here. You know, we're going to have a battle of the minds here.

That's totally fair. I think before we wrap up, I'd love if you don't mind to just hear a message of wisdom or insight or advice to women who are becoming leaders, new leaders that are women in the workforce right now. to women who are becoming leaders, new leaders that are women in the workforce right now? I talk about this in my book, Quick Confidence, but it's time to reimagine confidence,

to modernize the way we think about this quality. Number one is being learnable, not something you're born with or you're not, but being learnable. And here's what else it isn't. It's not about being bulletproof, you know, creating this like ironclad persona at work or someone who's effortlessly cool or only self-reliant. You are some of the old school images we have of confidence. What we can reimagine confidence to be is the kind of person who does good work, but doesn't take themselves deadly seriously. Somebody who is comfortable asking other people

for help, for input, kind of has that learning mindset we've been talking about. And I think maybe most important, somebody who is giving votes of confidence to others, those little micro validations to other people, not just keeping it all for themselves. I like that a lot. Thank you. Before we officially finish, can you just let our audience know where they can learn more about you? Yes, please come say hello. Check out my work at selenarezvani.com

and you can find me on all different social media channels. I create content five days a week on confident leadership. So say hello. Great. Thank you so much. Everybody listening at home, thank you so much for joining us. We will catch you. So say hello. Great. Thank you so much. Everybody listening at home.

Thank you so much for joining us. We will catch you on the next episode. Cheers. You've been listening to L&D in Action, a show from Get Abstract. Subscribe to the show and your favorite podcast player to make sure you never miss an episode.

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