Legal AF by MeidasTouch - Trump to be INDICTED on CRIMINAL CHARGES + MORE

Episode Date: March 19, 2023

Anchored by MT founder and civil rights lawyer, Ben Meiselas and national trial lawyer and strategist, Michael Popok, and joined for a special Trump criminal prosecution edition, by co-anchor and top former prosecutor Karen Friedman Agnifilo, the top-rated news analysis podcast LegalAF is back for another hard-hitting look at the most consequential developments at the intersection of law and politics. On this week’s edition, the anchors discuss: The looming indictment perhaps as early as this Tuesday, March 21, of Donald Trump by the Manhattan DA for the Stormy Daniels’ hush money coverup; a good week for Jack Smith and the special prosecutors against Trump in the Mar a Lago document stealing matter, with Trump attorney M. Evan Corcoran being found to have participated in a “crime or fraud” destroying any attorney client privilege and forcing him to testify again to the Grand Jury about his role in the document scandal; new information coming out of Georgia by 5 other special purpose grand jurors about the testimony they heard against Trump and others, and so much more. DEALS FROM OUR SPONSORS! MIRACLE MADE: Head to https://TRYMIRACLE.COM/LEGALAF and use the code "LEGALAF" LOMI: Head to https://lomi.com/legalaf and use code “LEGALAF” SUPPORT THE SHOW: Shop LEGAL AF Merch at: https://store.meidastouch.com Join us on Patreon: https://patreon.com/meidastouch Remember to subscribe to ALL the Meidas Media Podcasts: MeidasTouch: https://pod.link/1510240831 Legal AF: https://pod.link/1580828595 The PoliticsGirl Podcast: https://pod.link/1595408601 The Influence Continuum: https://pod.link/1603773245 Kremlin File: https://pod.link/1575837599 Mea Culpa with Michael Cohen: https://pod.link/1530639447 The Weekend Show: https://pod.link/1612691018 The Tony Michaels Podcast: https://pod.link/1561049560 American Psyop: https://pod.link/1652143101 Majority 54: https://pod.link/1309354521 Political Beatdown: https://pod.link/1669634407 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to the Midas Touch Networks Legal AF and we are here on Inditement Watch. It doesn't seem like it's if anymore. It seems like when will Donald Trump be criminally indicted by the Manhattan District Attorney? Will it be early next week? What are the ramifications? What can we expect? We have Karen Friedman Agnifolo joining us on the weekend edition today. Karen Friedman Agnifolo was the top deputy, the number two deputy in all of the Manhattan district attorneys office, basically ran the office with Si Vans. And so her perspective as a DA as someone who ran that office

is invaluable. Karen's been doing incredible commentary on all the major networks as well. And we are excited to have her here today to give you her perspective here with the Midas mighty. We got to give you updates with special counsel Jack Smith because things are heating up there as well. There's been additional proceedings taking place before the criminal grand jury

there. There's been dozens of more subpoenas that have been issued there. We will break all of that down here on this episode. We also have additional information for some of the grand jurors as part of the special grand jury in Fulton County who have spoken out on background to the Atlanta Journal Constitution. So they haven't given their names yet, but we have learned additional information about the

proceedings that have taken place there. So as one of the grand jurors said, things are going to be massive once they are released. So more bad news for Donald Trump there. And then finally, we've also learned that the Department of Justice is also engaged in another investigation of Donald Trump. Now, this involving Trump media and potential money laundering through an island of Dominica and a bank called the Paxon Bank from an oligarch directly linked to Vladimir Putin. And so a lot to discuss here, Michael Popak. Karen Friedman, Agnipolo, the gang is all here.

You have three of your own joining you on the weekend edition, and I couldn't imagine it any other way on this historic weekend. Good to see you. It's great to see you, Karen. Michael Popak, how are you? You're rocking the, what glasses for the audio listeners, so you can describe your thoughts. I'm in a very somber shade of black because of the impending indictment coming this week

of Donald Trump. It's my celebratory colors. Karen Friedman, Agnipfalo, I am so proud to have you as a partner with Ben on this show. And at this historic moment, I watched you with, with both pride and celebration when you're on MSNBC last night. I think we have a clip of it. We'll show later, but I can't think of anybody better in America right now to give the inside scoop of what's going on with Donald Trump to process the looming indictment and arrest, then you.

And I'm glad you're here with us this weekend. Before Karen, let's just show that clip right now of Karen Friedman-ignifla. Until late last year, when his office appears to have decided to push ahead with the Daniels investigation, that brings us to our current moment, potentially just days away from an indictment, Donald Trump. Karen Friedman-Anigphalo served as chief assistant district attorney under Forum in Haton D.A.S.I.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.A.V.A.V.A.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.V.A.A.V when would that happen? How would it be announced and then what would happen next? It by all accounts, I think it's going to happen next week. Earlier in the week, we predicted that it would be next week, just given the fact that Trump was given notice

to testify in the grand jury. And that's one of the last things you would do. The grand jury seems to be meeting Mondays, Wednesdays, and possibly one other day during the week. And so there didn't seem to be any other witnesses after Michael Cohen. So I think they're probably going to vote the case Monday or Wednesday of next week.

And Karen, just for our listeners and viewers out there who haven't yet watched Legal AF, or maybe some of our viewers who have watched or listened to Legal AF who just don't know what it means to be the number two deputy, you know, DA there and work in the office. Can you just briefly before going into what happened? Just describe again your career and your background at the office. Sure. So the Manhattan DA is elected and he's the highest law enforcement or he or she, someday she, the highest law enforcement officer in Manhattan. And then everyone else is an assistant district attorney. And there's about 500 of them at the Manhattan D.A.'s office

and about another 800 support staff. So I was the number two. So I was the chief assistant. I, when he was out of town or out of the jurisdiction, I was actually the acting district attorney a couple a bunch of times, which was super fun. And I ran the office and I was his right hand person. And I started there in 1992, right out of law school.

And I pretty much worked my way up to the very top. I did leave briefly in the middle for a little while, but pretty much that's what I did. I used to be a trial lawyer, a trial lawyer prosecutor for a long time and I did homicides and sexual assaults and all that kind of stuff. And then I took the Supervisorial route and ended up being the number two for the better part of a decade. And it was an incredible opportunity and an incredible honor to serve the people of the state of New York and Manhattan. And we were involved and supervised

all of the biggest consequential prosecutions that everyone's heard of. We were a lot more're really proud of, that we did. And I got to sit in the front row and have a bird's eye view of everything that was going on. It was great. And so while the large media networks have now,

you know, brought John as it appears that indictments are imminent, that it's not if it's when, you know, you've been co-hosting now the Legal AF podcast for some time, which is why, you know, one of the things that's so important to you and to Michael Popak and myself is presenting the data objectively, providing the facts over time, and just trying to give the full story. You know, there was all of these narratives about Alvin Bragg out there. And frankly, it was a very unpopular opinion we were expressing here when we thought that the first criminal indictments of Donald Trump were going to happen out of them in

Hatten District Attorney's Office. I can't tell you some of the types of comments that we had. You invited Alvin Bragg on as a guest and interviewed him on the show. And so it actually isn't that surprising and shocking, I think, to long-time legal AF listeners and viewers that this is now happening because you could just follow the data and watch the show and we presented it. But to a lot of people, they are shocked by this quote. So maybe Karen, can you talk about how it is

that we got here first? And then what do you think is gonna happen over this next week? Yeah, so look, as a prosecutor, you are trained to follow the evidence and look at the facts and politics doesn't play any role in kind of what you do. And so if I'm saying something on legal AF, it's because I'm following the facts. It's not because I'm trying to be political, you know, and so for me, the facts that I've been able to glean out of what's

been coming out of the DA's office and through others, right? Michael Cohen, through Trump, through others who, and lots of reporting that's going on, I've been able to glean what's happening because there are certain things that are done in certain ways. And so you can look at what's happening. And so just by way of background, prosecutors don't typically talk about pending investigations, right? You're just, you're supposed to do all you're talking in the courtroom and or in your motion practice, you know, in your paperwork.

And so, you know, so you don't really get a lot of information about what's happening. And a lot is done in secret, which causes people to speculate. And so in the beginning, when Sivance was no longer DA and handed over an investigation into Trump over to Alvin Bragg, who was newly elected, now a year and a half ago, there was a lot of public frustration

when two senior prosecutors resigned very dramatically and very publicly over their disagreement with Alvin Bragg because a case wasn't being brought, that they thought should be brought. And one of those prosecutors has since gone on to write a book talking about his judgment and why he thought the case should have been brought. But Alvin Bragg said he felt it wasn't ready.

He wanted more evidence, but he also said very clearly that the case is still pending, and the investigation is still pending. And as a prosecutor, he has honor and integrity. He would not have said that. He would not have said that. He would have just said, state silent, right? He would not have affirmatively gone out and said, the case is still pending. And the investigation, I should say, is still pending if it wasn't. And frankly, if it wasn't, you would also hear chatter from inside

the office that would eventually come out that Alvin Bragg isn't telling the truth. Because obviously there are line prosecutors who are doing the actual investigation. But you didn't hear that. All you heard was the naysayers on the sidelines who just didn't believe him and didn't believe that there were investigations still pending.

And he turned his, he said, look guys, I want more evidence on that particular case. I want you to do more, build more. And so that's what that team has been doing. In addition to that, they had a pending indictment against the Trump organization. And he said, okay, that's it going to go to trial. Like, focus on that. And like, see if we can get a conviction on that. Which he did, He got a 17 count conviction. In addition to that, there's been this investigation into the Stormy Daniels matter which is the one that's happening now. That has also been pending in the investigation in the Manhattan D.A.'s office. Now, if you remember what I

said a couple minutes ago, there's 500 lawyers there, and there's about a hundred of them in the investigation division, which is the white collar prosecutors who look at all of these matters. So you can have different teams working on each of these cases, and sometimes it overlaps with a few people, but you have different investigators, different prosecutors, and they're all working on these cases. Now, the Stormy Daniels hush money payment matter. At a certain point, you either had to go or no go. Now, Sivance didn't do the case because Donald Trump was president at the time that that case was being investigated and no prosecutors going to indict a sitting president

for crimes you're're going to wait. And so, again, that matter was handed over to Alvin Bragg, who continued the investigation. And the statute of limitations is about to run on that case in, I believe, May. And so the DA had to make a decision on that case one way or another. And a lot of people are criticizing him for bringing why this case.

This case was fraught with peril. It's not that important. It's a low-level crime. And Michael Cohen needs to be corroborated because he defense attorneys are going to cross-examine him in a way that is going to make it tricky to get a conviction on his word alone. It's all about the fact that he has a criminal conviction for lying to Congress.

He has a couple other criminal convictions. One associated with this exact payment, a federal election conviction, as well as the fact that he has made many, many, many statements about this, you know, a good defense attorney is going to try and show inconsistencies in those statements and use them against him. But you know what? Michael Cohen is who he is, and he provides color about what's going on with Donald Trump. Michael Cohen, if I, you know, again, if I'm the prosecutor, is going to be able to show,

yeah, he lied for the president or the former president, I should say, Donald Trump, because that's what Donald Trump has people do for him. In some ways, it makes the case stronger, because it shows that's, you know, Michael Cohen last night on MSNBC right before me went on the Chris Hayes show, and one of the things he said was to all the lawyers, to all the lawyers who are representing Trump, he said, I wrote the playbook, okay?

I know what you're going to do because I wrote that book. That's gold for prosecutors. Because look, if Donald Trump surrounded himself with the people who, with a bus full of nuns, you know, is what we always say as prosecutors, you wish that was your witnesses. But no, he's going to surround himself with people who lie, cheat and steal on his

behalf. That is exactly who Donald Trump is. And so Michael Cohen is going to be a fantastic witness in that regard because he's going to show the world exactly who Donald Trump is because he did it for Trump. He didn't do it for himself. But at the same time, you do need to corroborate everything he says, which it seems that Alvin Bragg has been able to do that, which is why they are now

in the grand jury, and they are now presenting the case. So getting to where we are today. Today, we said last, I think it was last weekend, legal AF, when Trump said he was invited to come to the grand jury and testify. What we said was he was on the one yard line. They were on the one yard line. They're about to go in.

I think we said, the indictment's going to come either this week, meaning the week we just finished, or next. We were within two weeks. That's exactly where we are because you could tell based on what was happening. And then Michael Cohen testified last week, I should say, on both Monday and Wednesday. What that tells me is that the grand jury, so these special grand juries,

when prosecutors call for them, they usually sit for a period of time, like six months, and they usually sit either mornings or afternoons. And they sit sometimes one day a week, sometimes three days a week. And the fact that Michael Cohen testified last week, Monday and Wednesday. This tells me this is at least a Monday, Wednesday

grand jury, if not a Monday, Wednesday, Thursday, or Monday, Wednesday, Friday grand jury, although we didn't see any activity last week on Thursday or Friday. And the reason we didn't see any activity is because these large news organizations like the New York Times, they stake out the DA's office. They know that drill two. They know that they can see people going into the grand jury

and then they'll surmise that that's what's happening. And we didn't hear any reporting of that. So that's where you are with how we knew it, it's going to be voted. Now, the grand jury, because this is a grand jury where there hasn't been an arrest, any indictment will be sealed until he appears in court, until Trump appears in court. So we're not going to officially hear about it from the DA's office because Alvin Bregg cannot tell us about it. So there's office because Alvin Bragg cannot tell us about it. So there's a slight possibility that they've already

indicted the case and the case has been voted. But I don't think so because I think we would have heard about it. I think there would have, you know, maybe a grandeur would tell one person who would tell somebody else that guess what I did today, even though they're not supposed to, you could just imagine in a case this high profile that something like that gets leaked. would tell one person who would tell somebody else that guess what I did today even though they're not supposed to. You could just imagine in a case this high profile that something like that gets leaked or that frankly Trump would have leaked it, right?

So I think that it probably hasn't happened yet. And my suspicion, and we read The New York Times this morning, is that there's one more witness that needs to go in. It could be a ministerial witness or a small witness. And so I would expect that that would happen on Monday. And there's no reason why they wouldn't vote the case on Monday. And and then perhaps have him appear as soon as possible. And so that's why he tweeted out this morning, you know, we all woke up to a tweet this morning from not a tweet, sorry, a post on his truth social, which I don't follow by the way I had to have my daughter send it to me

because I refused to give truth social yet another follower. But it says, you know, our nation, our nation is dying, you know, the American dream is dead, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah blah blah, exactly. But he goes on to say in the second post, now illegal leaks from a corrupt and highly political Manhattan DA's office, which has allowed me, which has allowed new records to be set, et cetera. He basically says that he's going to be arrested Tuesday and then he calls for a protest to take our nation back,

which honestly, give me a pit in my stomach, because if that doesn't sound like a call for another insurrection like January 6th, I don't know what does. So he said, Tuesday arrest. So that, again, leads me to believe this is going to be you voted. He's going to be indicted on Monday and he's going to surrender on Tuesday. And you know, what's happening behind the scenes right now, the NYPD is

is meeting with all sorts of law enforcement, the court officers, the FBI, the JTTF, everybody to plan for mass protests. And if anyone thinks the NYPD cannot handle this, I will tell you, we have had so many mass protests that happen, you know, immediately not ones that you have to, you have this much time to plan for, like the George Floyd protests, Occupy Wall Street, Black Lives Matter, some are peaceful, some are non-peaceful, some have had looting and riots, and the one thing, the NYPD can handle time square

on New Year's Eve. They can handle this, they've had planning and coordination, they know what they're doing, they will have security preparations, and Secret Service will be involved, and so Donald Trump can try and call for his supporters to do violence, which is what he's trying to do and take over New York City, but it's not going to work. The NYPD can do this and they can handle it.

But that is where we are today. And that is what is happening. Thank you for that explanation, Karen. And what Donald Trump posted, he just wrote, the former president of the United States of America will be arrested on Tuesday of next week. Protest, take our nation back is what he wrote. And so Pope, I definitely want to get your take on this as well. Yeah.

So listen, I think there's a couple of things here. I agree with, of course, I agree with Karen's timeline. I think the, I don't think the one more witness on Monday, which has been reported is Stormy Daniels, even though Stormy Daniels has gone in and talked to them at Hatten D.A.'s office. They don't need her. They don't need her to vote out that indictment. And I don't, I think that's it's unnecessary at this time. So I agree with Karen and they may have to run a records custodian in or somebody else in. I don't think it's Alan Weisselberg at a Reikers Island. I think they probably could get the indictment right now, but they're they're dotting their eyes and crossing their teas, which makes it Tuesday. However,

I would think now that the law enforcement and coordination with the secret service, because let's walk through how this would happen, how this has to happen. Because some people might be saying, oh, maybe he gets a special break because he's the former president first time in history to be indicted procedurally. Maybe he gets a different break. He does not. He has to go through the exact same process of surrender, either self surrender, or they

go pick him up. Let's hold a pin on that for a minute, because I'm going to question whether he is forfeit at his right to self surrender. We'll talk about that in a moment, but he asked the surrender to law enforcement. He has to be booked. He has to have a mug shot taken fingerprints taken put into the system and a rain in front of a judge. them and are reigned in front of a judge, just like any other common criminal, not named Donald Trump. Okay, there's no, there's no favor that is given to him because of his former status. So all of that, all that happens and all that happens in New York, not in Mar-a-Lago,

not in Florida, not in Palm Beach County, not in Miami, date County, but in Manhattan, where he will be arraigned as a criminal defendant in a criminal case against him prosecuted by Karen's old office. That's it. So how do you court-naked that? Well, he currently, people forget this. He currently has Secret Service protection, all former presidents do, regardless of of what they did to this country. And the secret service will then coordinate with the law enforcement on the other side, right? The the police on the other side to, if they're going to still allow self surrender to self surrender coordinated with the secret service who have the protection of that ex president as part of their remit and mandate. So there's that coordination that has to happen. Now right now it is a self-surrender

situation. However, I imagine now that law enforcement and the prosecutor's office is looking very closely at what Donald Trump has now truth-socialed out, which is eerily similar to the exact same thing he said about that led to Jan 6, which is it's be there, going to be wild protests. It's similar. Ali Adams, who's, you know, formerly insurrectionist and election denier, or Ali Alexander, he said, oh, I'm no longer in the business. I guess they're no longer in the business of being a of being an insurrectionist. But I've always said we should have 10,000 patriots shutting down all routes to Mar-a-Lago. And he says, now I'm retired. I'll pray for him though. I mean, this is what those around

that are unhinged around Donald Trump are going to be continuing to do beating that drum from now until Tuesday. I guess they think, well, Mar-a-Lago, he'll stop him from being, because I guess he's down there right now, is stop him from being brought. Trust me, law enforcement, working with Secret Service is going to get Donald Trump out of Mar-a-Lago if they have to pull it from his, his, his, cold dead fingers and get him to New York. And all of these people that would respond to this. And we know there are people who have their own moral, moral deficiencies and valued deficiencies

who are going to take up this clarion call just like the Jan 6th insurrectionist. And, and just like 2000,000 or 3,000 of them, we're all going to be looking at jail time or have looked or are now in jail. These people are too. So let me warn as Karen is speaking to people about how don't worry New York, we got this. We're New York strong. We know how to handle riots and insurrection better than the Capitol police ever did. And with a president in Joe Biden, not Donald Trump in the waning days, handling the defense of this situation, the security situation. Now my question to Karen and to Ben, knowing that this is the process that could likely

happen on Tuesday. So likely that Donald Trump has already tweeted. Now the reporting is he doesn't have inside information. It's not because Donald Trump was told by Alvin Bragg or his office through his counsel to expect a self surrender on Tuesday. It's because they are reading the same leaves and T. Leaves a Karen is reading about the Monday Wednesday indictment that is likely and think it's Monday, meaning a Tuesday, self-surrender. But why? Why now now watching this ex-president push those same buttons to cause and foment and insurrection now either in Florida, and or in Manhattan? Why can't it in Ben? Should we

allow that type of self-surrender? Why not pick him up on Monday night, either arrest him or pick him up on Monday, not as planned, but don't give him, I think he's forfeited the right to do this in an orderly manner. By the way, that he's, he's, uh, he's abusing his, uh, his bully pulpit of social media. What do you guys think? I love to get Karen's perspective there because Karen, you've had to coordinate the logistics involving very high profile cases and you've dealt with situations out of them in the district attorney's office involving very violent criminals, mafia, etc. So perhaps you can explain like what these considerations are from an inside perspective. from an inside perspective. Yeah, so there is a couple of things that make this unusual and why you kind of have to give

him a chance to self surrender. Number one is the fact that he's guarded by Secret Service and Law Enforcement 24-7, right? So you'd have to coordinate that with the Secret Service. You can't do the surprise arrest that you would do with other people who you think are going to foment violence or, you know, be, whether it's, you know, hide evidence, you know, there are reasons why you give someone a chance to surrender and reasons why you don't. And the reason you don't give someone a chance to surrender is A, you think they're going to flee, right? If they get noticed, they'll flee the jurisdiction. Or B, they could

potentially destroy evidence, and you don't want that to happen. And so that's when you go and you surprise, arrest someone with and arrest warrant. No, either way, there's going to be an arrest warrant, whether you do it, whether you allow someone to surrender or you do it, you know, surprise like that. So, but in this particular instance, it's logistically kind of tricky because of the fact that he is guarded by Secret Service 24-7. So, that actually could be dangerous for law enforcement

to go in in a way that isn't coordinated, given the fact that his Secret Service agents are all armed and are there to protect him. The other reason why it's logistically difficult to do it like that is he's in Florida. And New York law enforcement do not have jurisdiction is he's in Florida. And New York law enforcement do not have jurisdiction to arrest someone in Florida. You either have to coordinate with Florida law enforcement

and they would have to do it. And then he'd be brought before a judge or in Florida before he could be brought here. And a judge would order it. Or you would have to coordinate with the governors, Kathy Hocal and Ron DeSantis would have to coordinate with the governors, Kathy Hocal and Ron DeSantis would have to coordinate. And it's just so interesting why Ron DeSantis isn't saying, what, go take him.

He's clearly making some calculus there about his own presidential vis-a-vis this. But that's the reason. You see, Pope Buck, that's why I tossed that question to Karen Friedman Agnipolo. And that's why it's important, though, to have experts providing their commentary, because look, as much as I would have wanted to give you my thoughts there and said, yeah, send them in. Have the Secret Service arrest them.

There's the considerations that Karen is talking about right there because again Karen ran that office are exactly the real world considerations that are actually being reflected right now in the office. So there's nothing more nothing more on point than that. Popeyes, I know you had another point. Just really quick, one more thing, law enforcement, all in this regard, all law enforcement, they're gonna do everything they can

to de-escalate the situation so that there aren't riots, there isn't violence. I mean, one of the worst things that could happen is if all his supporters go to Mar-a-Lago and block the ability to get him out of there and turn it into almost like a compound, and then law enforcement has to go out and physically pry him out of there, you know, occupy Mar-a-Lago, you know, kind of what Ali Alexander was saying he's not going to do. In some ways, that's a dog whistle to people to go do that, I think. And frankly, that is tricky because there

you've got a law enforcement nightmare, right? What are you going to do if he's hold up there and he's surrounded by all his supporters? Who is going to go in there and pry him out of there? Is anyone in Florida law enforcement going to do that? I doubt it. I think Florida likes him a lot, actually. So I don't know that that's going to happen.

So that, to me, is one of the nightmare situations. So law enforcement's going to do everything they can to de-escalate this, coordinate this, and see if they can persuade him to voluntarily surrender so that this doesn't turn into something way worse than just an everyday arrest. I mean, this is not that big of a deal. This is surrendering on an e-failony white collar crime, something that is done almost

every day at the NANDA's office. Well, Karen, almost every day, that would assume, for example, the on January 6, the counting of the electoral votes is just something that happens. It's just counting. Exactly. It's ministerial. And here, surrendering, you would think, is just something that happens.

It's routine. But already we're seeing Kevin McCarthy, for example, and the Magi Republicans go and locks that Kevin McCarthy wrote, here we go again, and outrageous abuse of power by a radical DA who lets violent criminals walk as he pursues political vengeance against President Trump. I'm directing relevant committees to immediately investigate if federal funds are being used to subvert our democracy by interfering in elections with politically motivated prosecutions and Kevin McCarthy is trying to further ignite the fire. Popeye. Yeah, let me take it from there Well, let me wrap up one thing Karen said and to answer questions that I know will be out there

He's gonna come out of this we've talked a lot about process and procedure that's really important and the security that's around that Rest assured. He will get out of Mar-a-Lago He will surrender one way or the other to Manhattan authorities in coordination with the Secret Service and all of this other stuff around it which could which could be a riot or a protest will be will be handled one way or the other in the best way possible. He will then go in and be arraigned in front of a judge. He will then go out the wooden front door that day. He is not going to be held pre-trial detention. He's going to come back out onto the steps of the courthouse. He is likely to give some sort of speech or commentary.

We know he's not, we're not just going to see him whisked into a black, you know, uh, limo or SUV and taken away. We know Donald Trump, if anybody knows Donald Trump, it's might as touch network and legal AF. He's going to give a courthouse step press conference. I'm sure he's writing it now. So he will come back out and he will based on this felony, um, you know, he'll bond out or bail out around his own reconnaissance, be allowed to leave. So why don't want people to think, oh, this is great. He's going in an arse jumper right off of that of a Raymond. He's not. But he will then be a indicted for a felony defendant in a criminal matter. And then we go into all of the first day orders related

to this setting up motion practice and return dates and when he'll be able to address the indictment. We know we'll try to dismiss the indictment. I'll talk about that next. Then in final sentencing, if he gets convicted, which everyone on this show and knowing Manhattan juries the way the Karen and I do believe it's going to happen. That jury is going to be not a jury of his peers. It's not going to make up MAGA jury. It's going to be a jury that gets pulled appropriately from the DMV records of of Manhattan. And that is a group that is not favorable to Donald Trump, and they are going to follow the lead and the evidence that's going to be presented on this relatively simple case and setting up these two

crimes. The thing that all the lawyers here are really interested in getting to the bottom of is when we see the indictment is going to be what is the second crime, the second crime that ratchets this event up from a hush money, false payment, recorded in the books and records of the Trump organization into a felony. Is it as we suspected an election or campaign violation like the one Michael Cohen pled to? Is it money laundering? Is it tax evasion?

What is the second crime? Because it's clearly this is the gearing up, the geeking up is about a felony, not about a Mr. Meater. We're not going through all of these resources to pick them up on a Mr. Meater. It is a felony, which means they have broken the code, the Manhattan D.A.'s office, on the second crime, on, let's say on Monday, in having the voted out indictment. If he sent this, it's up to four years. Karen has a speculation. I think I saw it on one of the shows about him getting jail time.

But it is up to a four year crime if this whole package is presented before we turn to Karen on what she thinks the sentence could look like. The other thrust of the campaign by Trump world and getting ready for the eventuality, the reality of indictment. And this is something that's been haunting Donald Trump for quite some time. There has been reporting that when Alan Weiselberg shuffled into the courtroom with handcuffs,

you know, with a coat covering handcuffs, and it had his own version of a perp walk. It really left Trump shaken those around him that reported out, said he was white. He was shaking. He couldn't believe it was happening. This is happening. And this is happening to Donald Trump in real time. So what his, his Trump world, the, the Hobbes, the Takapinas, the McCarthy's, you

know, in the elected officials, they're now attacking just like they attacked the other two black prosecutors involved or, or black officials. They're going after Alvin Bragg because he was backed by George Soros as other progressive prosecutors were during this wave of elections in in in 2020 in 2021 that he's in Biden's back pocket. Let me let me just explain Alvin Bragg for a moment because people have a lot of opinions about him. Most of them inaccurate. Alvin ran for that job.

Alvin was not in the Manhattan DA's office like Karen was. He actually ran against a person who's a friend of Caratomize and the show, who's now the Inspector General of the state of New York, who ran for that job, who was in the office at the time. But he came for, he had been in the office at one time. He had been a federal prosecutor, so he was known. He's a known commodity as a top prosecutor, but he wasn't in the office at the time. He ran and the people of the city of New York were Manhattan, elected him, the borough

of Manhattan, New York, elected him because he campaigned on it. So he's not in anybody's back pocket. He's not Joe Biden, the department of justice, handpicked prosecutor. He's the people of the of New York's handpicked prosecutor for writer for wrong. And so that's how he got that job. He didn't get it through any other nepotism. He earned that job and he and he got voted into that job. And and and so that's something I think is very, very important. As they continue to try to attack him as being some sort of racist just like the fawny Willis attack, just like the litusia James attack, because they're black. So suddenly now, not understanding how racism work, they're racist,

because they're going after Donald Trump because he's white, apparently. No, they're going after him because he committed crimes. And that's what you're supposed to do as a prosecutor or the New York Attorney General, that he's woke. You know, this is that new favorite attack. Whatever that means. They don't even know what that means, but that he's some sort of progressive democratic prosecutor. Well, you know what? He's in a city that voted him in on a platform that he ran on to be exactly who Alvin Bragg is. And he didn't pick this crime. He didn't pick these witnesses. They picked him. And to Karen's point on Michael Cohen, Michael Cohen is not a, it's not a problem for Alvin Brack, because all you have to say in your opening to the, to the jury is, we didn't

pick the witnesses in this case. Donald Trump picked the witnesses in this case. Michael Cohen is a witness who with facts and knowledge about what happened because Donald Trump hired him to be his inside guy, his console, Gary, and to do his bidding. We didn't pick it. They did. And that's it. You're done. The jury goes nods their heads and say, okay, we understand. Now it's here for Michael Cohen. So that's where we are with the combination Trump world attack and what's going to be the last and final steps in both the Arainment and hopefully the future conviction and sentencing of Donald Trump. Karen Yeah, so two things just to pick up what you were what you were saying with about Alvin Bragg

By the way when he ran for office he ran against somebody else who paid many many many millions of dollars Towards their own campaign, and he still beat that person. So you're 100% right that the people of Manhattan elected him based on his policies and on him and who he is. And also if this was political, right?

If this was just something political, he could have brought that other case two months into office, you know, the asset valuation case, the one where, you know, the book came out and the prosecutors resigned. That case, if you listen to one of the prosecutors who wrote a book, a Mark Pomerance, he said that case was ready to go. Again, if this was political, he would have just done that case. But he doesn't. He's looking at the facts and bringing the crimes. But one more thing I want to just talk about the indictment. First of all, I think there's going to be at least 11 counts in the indictment,

one for each of the entries in the business records. And I think there were 11 payments over our time. And I think each one will be its own falsifying a business record entry. So I think you're going to see many and many charges here. You also might have several charges for different theories, depending on the crime they will say he alleged to have tried to conceal or cover up. But I also have one more legal theory that I want to throw out there

that I want people to think about, which is there's a lot of speculation about which crime they're using to bump this up to a felony. And I went back and I reread the statute. And it says that with the intent to defraud, your intent is to conceal or cover up another crime. So it's about your intent. It's not about committing the crime. It's about your intent to cover up or conceal a crime. So I'm going to point, you know, this is a white collar case. So this is very much being analyzed by white collar lawyers. Well, I'm not a white collar lawyer. so I'm trying to learn to be one, but I grow up in the violent crime world. That's what I did my entire career, you know, murders, sexual

assaults, burglaries, et cetera. So I want everyone to think about burglary. The crime of burglary, which is trespass, right? You enter and remain somewhere unlawfully and trespassing only gets bumped up to a burglary if you intend to commit a crime therein. Prosecutors don't have to prove which crime you intended, right? We don't know. Was this going to be a sexual assault? Was this going to be stealing property? Was this going to be some other crime inside there? You just have to prove that he went in not to go to sleep, right? He didn't just trespass. He went in to commit a crime with the intent to commit a crime therein.

And I would argue that falsifying a business record in the first degree, which is the intent to cover up or conceal a crime, that that's, that you don't even necessarily have to prove which one it is beyond reasonable doubt, just that he was intending to cover up a crime. And I think the fact that he structured the payments and didn't just give it all in one check

and all the other evidence, I think, shows that this was intended to cover up a crime. So I don't think it's as difficult legally as others, but it is untested. But I think that's one of the theories that is going to get this across the finish line no problem. And one of the things I want to show right now, I want to pull up this post by Adam Kinzinger, who's addressing the fact that throughout the entire morning, and throughout the day, rather there's been threat after threat after threat by Republicans, by sitting

members of Congress, by leaders in the Republican Party, by Republican influencers, threat after threat, after threat, designed to heighten the risks that we talked about earlier. So it says the threats this morning from the GOP to interfere in the arrest or to investigate our sickening. This is not the law and order party, but as you hear their threats, remember, they literally have no power to interfere or do anything. People like Marjorie Taylor, Green are all bark, no bite. And finally, I'll show you this post just to remind you the infamous post by Lindsey Graham.

Let's pull this up right now. And Lindsey Graham said famously before the Republican Party nominated Trump and before all of the Magga Republicans sold their souls to become a cult, to get rid of the Republican Party and turn it into whatever it is today. A Donald Trump cult. Lindsey Graham wrote, if we nominate Trump, we will get destroyed. And we will deserve it. Lindsey Graham now a staunch public supporter of Donald Trump at the same time Lindsey Graham testified before the special grand jury in Fulton County, where we learned that he

said that essentially Donald Trump would have believed that aliens change the votes in the 2020 elections. We're going to talk about more that we've learned about the Fulton County proceeding this past week. We're going to talk more about special counsel Jack Smith's criminal investigation into Donald Trump. We will get there right after these brief messages. And now let's take a quick break to talk about our next partner, Miracle Made.

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And now back to the video. Welcome back to the legal AF podcast. I wanna go and talk about the updates that we've learned about from special counsel, Jack Smith, in terms of everything from filing motions to compel and getting a successful ruling on the motion to compel under the crime fraud exception of at least one of Donald Trump's lawyers Evan Corcoran in connection with Donald Trump's theft of thousands of government records that he stole

and kept in Mar-a-Lago, which were found during the August 8th. Search warrant that was validly and lawfully executed on Mar-a-Lago. I wanna talk about the dozens of other subpoenas that have been issued as special counsel Jack Smith's investigation heats up and these dozens of others subpoenas were relate to other people who worked at Mar-a-Lago, staffers and aides and dozens of people

who have any knowledge whatsoever about Donald Trump moving records. So Popeye, can you break down what's going on in Special Counsel Jack Smith's investigation? Yeah, it's a great, great day, great week for Jack Smith. We have to always keep in mind, we have three separate wheels of justice or four separate wheels of justice

that you and I and Karen are monitoring all at the same time. And they're all moving at different rates and different velocities to get to the same place, which is justice. Latisha James, Attorney General, she's got her civil fraud case against all things. Trump, she can do things that prosecutors can't do in terms of putting businesses owned by Donald Trump and people out of business forever in the state of New York and take a lot of money off of them in the interim. That you can't do in the criminal justice system.

Criminal justice system is as law and order has always betrayed it. It is gates coming down and you're in jail if you are convicted. And then you've got Fawne Willis and her investigations. We're going to talk about with some new developments from five more grand jurors who have spoken to the Atlanta Journal Constitution about what they heard and what they and new information, new evidence that we're just hearing about there. Here we've got a really great week

in the final week of Chief Judge Barrel Howell, who just completed her seven year term as the Chief Judge of all things grand jury in the District of Columbia. She's going to be replaced on Monday by the next most senior judge, Judge Jeb Bozberg, who's also a Democratic president of Poiti by Obama. So we shouldn't have to worry much. But the Department of Justice has done. Hall, as Ben has said, on might as touch, hall of fame baseball numbers in front of judge barrel Howell batting like 900 in getting her to strip away attorney client privilege,

executive privilege or other types of privileges that have been asserted over the objection and the vigorous objection of Donald Trump and his lawyers to have lawyers testify and people close to Donald Trump in the West Wing testify before the various grand juries, right? We know there's three grand juries at least. The Mar-a-Lago document, top secret document stealing grand jury and obstruction grand jury. We've got the Jan 6 and Donald Trump's role in starting and lighting the fuse that led to the insurrectionist explosion that rocked our cradle of democracy on Jan 6th. And then we've got all of the griff that Donald Trump did and his fall, so using the fake

elections to raise money and things like that. And we can always kind of figure out in the chess board, who's going in for which grand jury, depending upon what we know, their role has been Evan Corcoran, M Evan Corcoran, who we used to talk about as being an advocate in courtrooms around America, trying to defend Donald Trump, including having a role in the Mar-a-Lago legal arguments that were raised at the 11th circuit in Florida is now likely criminal target himself, Evan Corcoran, having violated the Cardinal sin of being a lawyer like the three of us, which is never be a fact witness for your client and never be a co-conspirator with your

client. And Evan Corcoran went into the grand jury just as Alina Habba has, just as Christina Bob has, just as other people have, including a female attorney out of Georgia. Miss Little has about Mar-a-Laga. Why? Because Evan Corcoran was the puppet master, or at least the, the close confidant of Donald Trump and attorney, about how to manage the Department of Justice's requests, initial requests with the, the presidential records and national archive to get back all of the

documents top secret and otherwise that Donald Trump had taken with them. It started as a request. It started as negotiations. It became a subpoena, which meant the other side has to comply with it, and it ended up a search warrant. And on August 8th, down in Mar-a-Lago, because of Evan Corcoran and Donald Trump, Evan Corcoran told the Department of Justice and its head of the counterintelligence division that while they were having these negotiations over the subpoena issued by barrel howl out of district of Columbia that they would keep locked behind closed doors at bar

a logo keep the status quo not moved boxes around not move documents around while they negotiated that was a lie and the department of Justice talking to people and doing their investigation who worked in and around Mar-a-Lago knew it was a lie because they had gotten, they had gotten testimony that, for instance, Walt Nauta, the personal valet for Donald Trump, was seen on video taking boxes in and out of those locked rooms. At the very moment, Evan Corcoran was telling the department of justice that everything was status quo and nothing was moving. And the crime fraud exception, which we've talked a lot about on legal AF, which is the

attorney client relationship and communication is sacrosect unless there is the, the lawyer either winningly or unwittingly participates because of his advice and the communication in either a crime or fraud. If that happens and a judge determines that that has happened, then the crime fraud insulator or shield is pierced and the lawyer has to testify even if the client doesn't want him to about those discussions. That doesn't just mean the communications of Donald Trump talking to Evan Corcoran about Mar-a-Lago and the box of documents.

That also means records every lawyer worth his salt, including the three here, will take notes when they're talking to their clients, like the notes we're using first show, like this. Those notes are also privileged, either under the attorney client privilege or attorney work product privilege, and the judge apparently evaluated that issue and decided not only did a crime fraud occur involving Evan Corcoran in his communications with Donald Trump,

and I'll tell you what I think based on reporting that crime fraud involved, but that his notes may also have to be turned over directly to the Department of Justice. There is reporting that the judge in evaluating whether the crime fraud existed took into her repository, what we call an in-camera review, which means the judge alone looked at the documents in her chambers and made a decision based on what notes Evan Corcoran took about his conversations with his clients, whether that indicated a crime fraud. And then the reporting is she turned the records directly over to the Department of Justice, rather than making an order that Donald Trump's lawyers do it, meaning they don't have an ability, at least on, on the face, to go and challenge her order to compel them to turn over documents because she did it directly themselves.

If that is the case, and that is the reporting as of this morning, that is a huge win for the Department of Justice because they not only get Evan Corcoran testifying again to the, to the grand jury, but they get his notes. The, what they focused on with Evan Corcoran is there was a June 24, two months before the execution of the search warrant. There was a June 24 phone call between Donald Trump and Evan Corcoran on the very day the department of justice asked for and demanded all of the surveillance video for cameras outside the doors of Mar-a-Lago in the places where they said the documents

were stored because they wanted to see who was going in and out of those rooms because they had evidence that that Corcoran had lied to them and there's a phone call on that day. You can imagine that phone call. Oh, shit. We've, we got a turnover of those videos. I've looked at them, you know, Walt now does coming in and out of those rooms at our direction and taking boxes in and out. That could be it, which is now why the Jack Smith has also sent out more than two dozen subpoenas, basically for the entire staff, uh, the housekeepers, the servers, the maintenance people, the groundskeepers, because they are the invisible people

at a hotel. They have the eyes and the ears. They see everything. If Walt Nado was taking boxes with another witness that's already been identified, helping him move these boxes. At the moment that Evan Corcoran is lying to the face of the Department of Justice, which is a crime about the documents being preserved. That's a problem. The fact that Evan Corcoran had Christina Bob, who's already testified to the grand jury, sign a declaration that the entire universe of confidential trade secret, I'm sorry, confidential and top secret documents that Donald Trump had was 38 of them.

And it was in this sealed envelope. And here you go, knowing or should have knowing that there were a hundred more behind the locked door that were not turned over to the Department of Justice. That's a crime because Christina Bob is now lied to the Department of Justice. That's a crime because Cristina Bob is now lied to the Department of Justice. Evan Corcoran had a one-on-one with the counterintelligence director or division chief for the Department of Justice and would not allow him to go look at the locked room, but assured him that he had nothing to worry about. It was all being protected. That's a lie.

So it's not just Evan Corcoran as witness. It's Evan Corcoran as criminal defendant. Now, look, that means when he goes into the grand jury, he may try to take the Fifth Amendment. So put aside the attorney client privilege. If he takes the Fifth Amendment, you're going to be right back now in front of Jeb Bozberg, the new chief judge, to argue

over whether the Department of Justice should give Evan Corquret immunity so that he testifies, because they don't have no ability not to testify on that issue. So between the two dozen subpoenas of everybody that's ever walked the grounds of Mar-a-Lago and this huge win on the final day of Barrel Howell's tenure as the chief judge, you could nass for a better week for the Department of Justice and their investigations. And speaking of the Department of Justice, Karen, I want to ask you in a question, in a moment, though, about these Trump lawyers, because as these Republican politicians have basically just lost all dignity going all in for Donald Trump becoming

the Maga Republican Party lost all ethical and moral compass. Same thing with these lawyers. I want to talk to you in a moment about what's going on there, even with Joe Takapina, Donald Trump's defense lawyer in the Manhattan District Attorney Criminal investigation, or at least one of the lawyers there. But Popak, in addition to what special counsel Jack Smith is doing, we've also learned that the Department of Justice, I believe out of the Southern District of New York, maybe you could just quickly explain this, is investigating Trump media criminally for money laundering regarding about $8 million of money that came in from a Caribbean island of Dominica from a family trust that ultimately is linked to a Russian

oligarch who was Vladimir Putin's deputy of justice and that that was the money that basically kept Trump media afloat. That's in addition to other department of justice, criminal investigation. So maybe briefly touch on that because I want to give that full picture of what the video is doing. Yeah, no problem.

So people may recall that another grift of Donald Trump was the creation of a media group that owns his truth social. And that was not a public company that was privately owned by Donald Trump, probably 90% or more. And the sole asset that it housed is this truth social platform, which at the time it had gotten off the ground yet, it had like no people on it. It still doesn't have that many people on it compared to his his former Twitter following, but that was that the way to make real money at least two years ago, because now the world of special purpose acquisition

companies or SPACs has really taken a nose dive because the SEC has decided to investigate abuse in the SPAC world, meaning that easy money that used to be made by people being acquired by a SPAC, which becomes a public company overnight and gives access to the SPAC sponsor, which is the owner of the SPAC and the entity that's acquired, the business acquired, at a very high amount of money, depending on how much the SPAC has raised to buy the asset, the target company. It could be billions. In fact, in Donald Trump's case, it could be up to over a billion dollars of people

decided to invest in the company, the SPAC company that ultimately acquired Donald Trump's Trump world, Trump media, whatever it's called. Here's the problem. It is a crime. And the SEC and the US Attorney's Office, Southern District of New York is investigating. It is a crime if the SPAC itself or any of its investors know at the time that they raise their money, who they're ultimately going to buy. It's a weird thing, but this is how it works.

You invest in the SPAC at $10 a share if you want to get in on the ground floor of something. You trust that the SPAC sponsor, he'll make vague representations of the kind of companies that they may want to invest in. Entertainment, sports and gambling, gaming, restaurants, really vague like that. You go, okay, here's my money. And then you sit back and wait for the SPAC to make its acquisition. And if you don't like the acquisition, then you can get your money back. You can really see that.

You get full redemption. You get full redemption. I don't want to, I don't want to be in that business. The problem is you're not supposed to, and it's a, it's a crime to coordinate between the target entity and the SPAC. Because now you're just beating, now you're just trying to short circuits going to going public rules for a public company or the SEC because you always do, you're going to acquire Trump world.

There's so much evidence that the SPAC world, the SPAC sponsor coordinated with Donald Trump before they raised all their money, which is a crime. Now, in the meantime, the SEC steps in and basically stops the completion of this acquisition of the Trump entity by the SPAC. So it can't go public, which means Donald Trump can't get the $1.8 billion that's sitting in those bank accounts, which of course he needs, given all of his cash problems right now that are only growing. But the SEC has stepped in the middle and said, not so fast.

And we're investigating you for a crime. So they needed money because they were running a business. They have a burn rate, a monthly churn and burn rate that they need to run this truth social thing. And they had a big hole in their bucket, like $8 million. So they needed an investor to come in, prop them up while they hopefully waited for the SPAC acquisition to go forward. And Donald Trump would get $1.8 billion. So if you're Donald Trump and you got to come up with fast cash, where do you go? You go to the Russians.

So the Russians and Russian investors with with anonymous and secret trusts, but have all been sort of pierced and investigated by news agencies, sitting in a very small Caribbean nation that nobody's ever heard of unless you live like in Miami. And I know a lot of people go to to America from Miami, but it has apparently banked secrecy laws that people like to set up trust there. There is a Russian trust owned, we believe, based on reporting, by a close associate of Vladimir Putin who runs a major port and maritime company in Russia for Putin, co-owns it with him, if you will.

And was also, as you said, his first deputy minister of justice, he's the one through a bank that's tied back to Putin. In Dominica paid $8 million in two different tranches, a six million and a two million, two Trump world, not to the SPAC to prop them up because they needed the cash. And Don Jr. is on record as acknowledging that the money was coming from this Russian family through the Russian bank in Dominica at the time that they needed it. And there were a lot of people. There's whistleblowers involved with Trump world,

including one of the founders of the SPAC that came up and said, no, no, no, we don't want that money. That's dirty money. That's radioactive money. And Don Jr. gave the green light, apparently, to take in the money because they needed the cash. So eight million Russian tied to Putin through a secret bank in Dominica directly to Donald Trump, which only helps him not only to prop up the asset, but to get his access to the $1.6 billion if they can ever close the spack deal. That's a great explanation.

It's, it's wow wow, that's what the Department of Justice is also investigating in addition to everything special counsel. Jack Smith is Karen. I want to go back to you though now and ask about these Trump lawyers because we know that Evan Corcoran to say the least isn't a very ethically compromised position. That's probably at best for him. At worst, he's being criminally investigated for obstruction of justice, which is really, really, really a serious crime where he can potentially serve years and years in prison for what he did for Donald Trump. You know, whether it's Christina Bob, who's testified before the Criminal Grand Jury in Federal Court in Jack Smith's investigation, or Alina Haba. We've just seen Jenna Ellis, Donald Trump's camp,

one of his campaign lawyers from 2020 get publicly censured by the Colorado State Bar where she admitted that she lied about everything and then went on social media and then lied that she didn't lie about everything. And so you have that and then I don't even get me started on Jeff Clark and Sidney Powell and Giuliani. And frankly, the countless other Trump lawyers who don't even hear their names who have been sanctioned huge amounts of money. By the way, Habbo was sanctioned basically like a million dollars. But all these other lawyers who you don't

even know the names of who by the been sanctioned or suspended or have serious consequences. You know, and then you move to we look in New York, for example, like with Joe Takapina, back to the Manhattan District Attorney's Criminal Investigation. I didn't know much about Takapina. I didn't know about his reputation. And so I didn't know if, wow, did Donald Trump hire someone for the first time who may actually have some game in court.

And it's always that Mark Twain quote, about like, you better not open your mouth and be thought of as a fool, then open your mouth and basically reveal that you truly are a fuel and remove all doubt that you actually are a fool. And seeing Takapena both in terms of the media appearances where I think he just further incriminated Donald Trump basically stipulated to what the underlying crimes were by the Manhattan District Attorney's investigation, undercut Donald Trump's political argument too,

that it's a witch hunt that would harm him, Takapena said it would actually help Donald Trump's campaign, but setting that all aside, these video surface of Takapena, for example, back in 2018, saying that he was consulted by Stormy Daniels, and he was back in this 2018 media appearance that he did. He said, look, I can't talk about my communications with Stormy Daniels because, you know, technically under the New York State Bar rules as exists under the American Bar Association rules.

It's the same rule, 1.18, as it relates to prospective clients when there is that consultation it could constitute the same type of confidentiality protections that exist regarding actual clients and former clients with prospective clients and so I guess at the highest level Karen you know with all with your years of experience leading the District Attorney's Office in Manhattan, just as a member of the bar, kind of globally, what's your reflection on these Trump lawyers generally, but then maybe focus on Takapena and what your observations are there. Look, Joe Takapena is very well-known in New York. He has represented a lot of people. I actually am scratching my head at how he could possibly represent Trump in this case. The rules are clear, right? The professional rules of professional conflict,

I mean, rules of professional conduct in New York, as well as the American Bar Association rules that you just talked about, it's very clear that you can't first represent a victim of a crime and then represent the defendant in a crime. Because when you meet with a client to potentially represent them like a prospective client, as you said, the attorney client privilege attaches at that point because you want to be able to have lawyers speak freely with potential clients. You got to know the facts and you got to speak openly about whether or not you can represent them and how you can represent them.

And it's absolutely clear that you can't then, like say you don't get hired, it doesn't matter. That attorney client privilege attaches and stays with you forever. And you can never not only talk about it, but you cannot then reveal secrets that were told to you by the prospective client. And you certainly can't use that information

to try and benefit your future client. I mean, it's rule 1.9 that talks about this conflict with former client in the same matter, and it's crystal clear. I mean, think about it. Otherwise, on cross-examination, he'd be allowed, if she testifies, and I guess he'll, you know, one question is, will she testifies, is she a witness, and will information be used that she told him and, you know, at the subsequent trial? And I can't

see whether or not she testifies. I can't see any scenario where there wouldn't be information in that she told him that wouldn't be used at the trial. And so I really don't understand how he could possibly represent Trump here. There is a, seems to be a conflict that is just crystal clear. So I find this one to be a head scratcher, and I'm frankly surprised. And he's already gone on the media and attacked her,

because he's basically said that Trump is a victim of extortion thereby accusing the prospective client of extorting his current client when he consulted with her in connection with a potential resolution of the matter with Donald Trump. That is the underlying piece of this. Karen, one thing I do want to kind of clear up, though, for everybody out there going back to the Manhattan District Attorney's offices.

So because, let me see if I have it right though, ordinarily, if there isn't this second crime, the crime Donald Trump is being charged with for the falsification of business records would normally be a misdemeanor if there wasn't the second crime. Let's just go in pieces. So normally it's a misdemeanor. However, if there is a kind of second crime attached to it, which there is going to be here, it will be charged as a felony. You previously spoke on this episode about what that could possibly be, but at the highest level and in basic

terms for our audience and listeners, do I have that part right that it could be charged as a felony? Yes, absolutely. Yes. And in terms of a felony from what I've read and it doesn't mean that if he's convicted He will serve all of those years in jail time. There's their own sentencing guidelines, but the top sentencing here would be around a four-year Sentence which would whether it actually takes place in Rikers or somewhere else, but in theory that there could be up to four years, I've read that. Is that accurate? And I understand their sentencing differences. And so, look, is there a possibility that he doesn't serve any time? Yeah, so this is a crime that has no mandatory minimum. And so he could

get no time. He could get, you know, community service. He could get a fine. He could get probation. He could just get a conditional discharge, you know, which is basically nothing. Or he could get up to four years in prison. Now, he wouldn't serve that at Rikers Island if it was a sentence of more than a year because Rikers Island is a jail, so he would serve it at a prison. Again, logistically, what, so the Secret Service is going to serve the time with him. I mean, I just don't understand how that would work. And so I frankly don't see that happening,

but you could get house arrest, for example, and that's something he could get. But I don't see that happening for mostly logistical reasons. And it's an E felony. It's a class E felony, which is the lowest. In New York, you have class A felonies, which are the highest, and then BCD and E, which is the lowest.

And although this is falsifying a business record in the first degree, so it's the highest falsifying business record, it's still an E felony, which is the lowest level felony in New York. Can I mention one thing, Ben, before we depart? This is back to the Ben Micellus strategy. We're not saying, we're not saying that this is it, that this is a, this is a period and not a comma in the prosecutions by the Manhattan DA's office of Donald Trump. This is the one that got the fastest accelerant put on it since January when the grand jury was in paneled. It's the simplest in terms of facts because of the development of the facts already through Michael Cohen and the prosecutors at the federal side. And it's all fallen into place. And yes, Alvin

Bragg has made the decision that this is the first one he wants to go after Donald Trump as Donald Trump, not just the Trump organization. Have you already gotten his 17 count conviction under his belt from the summer? We're not done. If this one, and I agree with Karen, the way she's analyzed it, of course, that as an e-falanie, no mandatory sentence and being who he is, it's not likely he's going to be in the orange jumpsuit that people want, but we're not done. And we're not done in the other places. Alvin Bragg may not have been ready on his

90th day to prosecute the financial crimes that Mark Pomerance, the special prosecutor, was pushing him, but doesn't mean that this is the only indictment and this blocks or bans further investigations and further indictments in front of other juries and grand juries against Donald Trump. This is the beginning. I don't think this is the end necessarily of Alvin Bragg's work as a prosecutor as he's getting more confident and more robust in his abilities to go after Donald Trump. And that's why it's just so important, though,

that we report accurately and what's going on and provide the facts because there's so much disinformation even out there or misinformation about what's going on that there are some people who think that on Tuesday that an indictment means Donald Trump goes to jail and wears an orange jumpsuit on Tuesday.

As much as we'd all like to see that happen, that's just not the process. That's not saying Donald Trump is above the law. That's not the process with anyone who was charged with that e-level felony or anybody charged within the same or similarly situated circumstance. That doesn't mean that after Donald Trump is convicted, and if he is convicted by a jury, that he can serve jail time. So I want to be clear with that, you know, and the max is four years. There is a chance that he doesn't ultimately will be what will

Alvin Bragg ask for. I think Alvin Bragg will ask for prison time. I think he will. I think that Donald Trump serving real time at Rikers Island, you see how terrified Donald Trump even is of the fact that Alan Weiselberg is serving a relatively shorter sentence at Rikers. That terrifies Donald Trump. But to your point, Pope, this is a case that would be a felony where Donald Trump can go to jail, which I believe in our predictions have been accurate, that the prosecutors will ask for real jail time. It's not going to be four years. You know, I think

it'll be probably closer to one or two. How will that ultimately work to Karen's point and to Pope, ex point where you have a former person who disgraced the presidency? How do you deal with the logistics of that? I think we'll get there when we get there. And then to Popeyex broader point, Alvin Bragg has said, he said it publicly, this isn't secret information. And he's been true to his word on what he said.

That's why we've been accurately able to predict it that he is still investigating the other crimes. The other crimes have a civil component that will be going to trial on October 2, 2023 by New York Attorney General Latisha James. The outcome of that could completely terminate the Trump organization from doing business in the state of New York for the foreseeable future or potentially even forever. The damages there are at least $250 million and could be in the billions of dollars. And then you can potentially see around that time as it relates to Alvin Bragg or even before that time, another criminal charge against Donald

Trump or multiple other criminal charges based on the other crimes. But let's think about what else is going on. We talked about what special counsel Jack Smith is investigating. And we've been talking a lot here about the investigation by Fulton County District Attorney Fony Willis. And we've learned some more information this week because five of the grand jurors in the special grand jury spoke with the Atlanta Journal Constitution. And they explained that this is going to be massive once the public gets to read what their criminal

recommendations were. Just so you know the process, the special grand jury, Infolten County does not have the power to indict. They have the power to make recommendations about indictments, which then go before a grand jury and the grand jury ultimately has the power to indict is the special grand jurors who prepared this report. The report largely remains redacted. Only three small portions have been unredacted. The intro, the conclusion and another paragraph, which doesn't really reveal

much. These five people who spoke out are addition to that Emily Cors and she had spoken on the four person who spoke on the networks. These are five other people. Their names remain anonymous. They said this is massive. They praised people who opposed Donald Trump's efforts like the late speaker of the House, a Republican late speaker of the House, Ralston. There's this other secret tape that Donald Trump no longer secret, but a recording of Donald Trump where Donald Trump tried to threaten the speaker of the House in Georgia, Republican speaker of the House, to call a special session there to overturn the results of the election. And the speaker of the House, the late speaker of the House, Ralston said, absolutely not,

I'm not doing that. And the special grand jurors praised that conduct, which goes to tell you that it's obvious that they believe that Donald Trump was engaged in a horrific conduct. They didn't say whether or not they've recommended Donald Trump being indicted, but everyone pretty much believes that they did. And then one of the other things that they said is basically, if the public was able to get the presentation of evidence that we had, they said that they would think that the public would not be so divided.

Because the evidence that they received, it's really just about free and fair elections and a group of people trying to stop free and fair elections to take place in spreading conspiracies. And one of the things that these grand jurors said that really disappointed them is that there would be lots of people who would say one thing under oath to them and then they would see the people, whether they turned on their TV or saw them giving a rally somewhere, where they would then be lying to their base, even though they said the exact opposite under oath. I think that one example of that would be like a Lindsey Graham or perhaps even a Rudy Giuliani, you know, or others, although they didn't specifically say who, but Popak, could you maybe

break down and then Karen will give you the final word? Yeah. I thought the article was great. The Atlanta Journal Constitution, which I know well, I go to Atlanta a lot to visit family, is a very good investigative, it does very good investigative journalist journalism, and they were able to track down. And the reason that these five out of the 23 step forward It does a very good investigative journalism. They were able to track down. The reason that these five out of the 23 step forward is because not because they disagreed with what Emily Kors said when she jumped off sides, so to speak, and hit all the media circuit talking about her as the four person of the grand jury.

They said that most of what she said they agreed with, it said that it became for them, it looked like what they were doing was fun and games or informal or not serious and not sober. And they wanted to clear the record on that. And the few things that I picked up from the reporting in addition to what you said, I definitely it resonated with me even beyond just reading it to this moment when that one juror said what you reported, which is if they had only seen what we had seen, they would not be so divided. It was a very powerful comment.

For me, the few new facts that were interesting was that how many people took the fifth amendment apparently out of the 75 witnesses, at least 10 took the fifth amendment against self-accrimination and did not testify either at all in response to questions or in large part to the questions they were being asked at the grand jury. And that included meadows, Giuliani and others and Flynn meadows, Giuliani and others and Flynn meadows Giuliani and Flynn. That's a rogue's gallery right there. That before Flynn testified, they sent in bomb sniffing dogs to sniff the area where the jury was doing its work, which freaked them out. And they didn't know why that was done, especially before Flynn, Flynn, a big election denier.

Maybe there was a report that Flynn or one of his supporters had called in a bomb. So that freaked them out a bit. And they also said that, look, they didn't live in a vacuum. They had known or the prosecutors had told them that Donald Trump in New York in response to questions asked by the New York Attorney General, which we take special delight in reporting on constantly, took the Fifth Amendment 400 times to even the most basic and simple questions. The grand jury, the special purpose grand jury knowing that didn't see any need to drag the spectacle of Donald Trump down, since they were

investigating Donald Trump down to the they were investigating Donald Trump, down to the Special Purpose Grand jury and invite him to give his testimony, because either he would have rejected it or that he would have just taken the Fifth Amendment 400 times. And so that's one of the reasons. So I think, you know, the composite takeaway between cores, oh, we also found out the reason she got the four person job is because she volunteered for it. And then the others didn't object.

So that's how she got, you know, we were always wondering how she get that job. That's how she got the job. But reading and putting the body of work together of now six out of the 23, we see a very sober body who was taking this supremely seriously, who was led properly by the prosecutors who started with a election experts who could teach the grand jury what

they needed to know about a properly functioning election process. That's how the indictment presentation started in this seven months and then brought in one by one, this rogue's gallery of witnesses who, by and large, testified truthfully, the grand jury believed to them. But as you said, Ben, then went out in the public and said something completely different. So they also said, a lot of them said, we're not in it for the crime prosecution. It's not like they were concerned about,

we wanna see Donald Trump and that orange jumpsuit, we've talked a lot about on this podcast today. It was heartening to hear that a large swath of the grand jurors just wanted to do their civic duty to make sure that the election process, the voting process that's so important in a democracy was protected and its integrity was preserved, and that they were doing their part related to that. And that is exactly, and I want to hear from Karen, that's exactly what you want to hear

is the mind frame of jurors considering some of the most momentous decisions in political history and criminal justice history in our lifetime. What do you think about that, Karen? Yeah, no, I look, I think it was very good that they came out and really set the record straight because unfortunately the four person who came forward, I think the media helped make her look a little less serious

than I think she actually is. And so I think it's a good thing that generally speaking, I think jury deliberations and jurors should remain secret. It's one of those things where you want to encourage people to speak freely and deliberate thoughtfully. So too much of a window into what goes on, I think is not a good thing for the process. But when there is this perception that was being perpetuated and largely by Trump that it was not serious,

that it was a little silly, and also that there was a little bit of a too closeness between Fannie Willis' office and the grand jury, I should say, they had like, you know, they insinuated that they were like parties or I can't, you know, things like that, like that they were social gatherings between them. But it's actually, you know, look, the grand jury is serving the district attorney's office, right? This is the DA's grand jury. And so, you know, they feed them sometimes, you know, it's because they are there during the day. So, I think it was good that they came forward and set the record straight that, no, this was a very serious, thoughtful process. And I think that's good for Fanny Willis.

However, it really isn't, in the end, it doesn't really matter one way or another because this grand jury isn't going to make a decision, that's been disbanded. Really, the people who are 23 people who are going to make the decision in whatever grand jury will be presented evidence, those are 23 different people

who are sitting hearing evidence, right? And there's hereay allowed in Georgia's grand jury. So, Fannie Willis could potentially just go in and read the report, frankly. And if she wanted to, she doesn't have to recreate the entire presentation and put every witness in. In fact, one reason to put witnesses in is to lock in their testimony and get their under oath testimony that can't change. But she has that already from the special grand jury. So there's no reason to put people into lock them in. She could really streamline this and have some witnesses come and summarize the evidence

and present here, say there. So she did say a while back that it would be imminent. And frankly, I expected there to be movement sooner. I wonder, however, if now that it's been so widely reported that Alvin Bragg's case is ready to go first, if she's going to wait and see how that goes and learn from how that goes. Because you have to, from a security standpoint,

if nothing else, and a logistics standpoint, right? Just to see how do you get a former president guarded by the Secret Service into the jurisdiction? And how do you get them to be a rest processed? And how do you deal with, and what will his supporters do? What will the level of protests be, if any? Will it be, you know, something like January 6th or will it be much to do about nothing? We won't know until we see how it goes in New York. So if I were finding Willis, that's what I'd be doing right now. I'd be ready to go. I would do this

quickly and I would wait and see how Alvin Brad goes, but then I would go very quickly right after that. Karen, I wanna give you the final word now about New York, about the Manhattan District Attorneys, likely criminal indictments, which are about to take place to all the public who's watching this, as we are arriving at this truly historic moment, just briefly, what do you want everybody to know kind of in closing?

That nobody is above the law. Our prisons and jails are filled with people who have committed crimes just like this and people who have done much less than this, frankly. Nobody's above the law, not even a former president. And he clearly committed a crime here, and he must be held to account just because he's a president, former president, and just because the logistics are going to be hard, you know, with the Secret Service, and just because there could potentially be a, you know, some

kind of unrest. That's no reason not to hold someone accountable who has committed a crime. And, you know, he thinks he's above the law. He thinks that he shouldn't be held accountable. In fact, he once said he could stand on Fifth Avenue and shoot someone and get away with it. That's his mindset. He said on the access Hollywood tape

that he could, he grabs women and kisses them and doesn't ask for consent, that he could, you know, grab them by the, you know, what? He doesn't believe the rules apply to him. He doesn't believe in following the rules and following the law. Just listen to his own words, listen to what he says about what he can get away with and what he should get away with. And in a civilized society that we live in, that is not how we operate. We hold people accountable for crimes. We hold people accountable, frankly, for shoplifting, you know, for using drugs. I mean, things that are, people who are in much less of a privileged place than he is. And you have to play by the rules, and he just does not.

The fact that he's calling the insurrectionist patriots, that they're serving Thai, he's calling out, that they're serving Thai him in prison for being patriots. He is insidious, and he's trying to get under America's skin. He's trying to divide us by saying that the criminal justice system is weaponized. The criminal justice system is what keeps us safe. Is it perfect? No.

Is it race? Is it racism in the criminal justice system? Absolutely, but not in the way he says. There's too many black and brown people in prison. It's time to hold people like him accountable. Is there racism in the criminal justice system? Absolutely, but not in the way he says. There's too many black and brown people in prison. It's time to hold people like him accountable. That's exactly what the criminal justice system should be doing. It's enough that he's been getting away with it

and stop trying to undermine law enforcement and the criminal justice process by your words, by your actions, and the things that you say. It's just not the way it is. So I am very, very proud that the Manhattan D.A.'s office, the police that I spent 30 years, my entire career, is holding this man accountable and that they're going first. And Karen Friedman, Agnifala, we are so proud to have you

as a co-host of Legal AF. We are so proud of the work that you've done and the work that you are doing to inform people during this critical moment is a true honor to share your wisdom with the Midas Mighty. Michael Popock always enjoys spending these weekends with you of course as well. And of course love spending it with all the Midas Mighty

out there. Thank you all so much for watching this very special weekend edition of Legal AF have a great week. We will be reporting for you live. I'm sure multiple times this week. Until next time, I'm Ben Micellis joined by Karen Freeman Agnetflow and Michael Popeye. This is Legal AF. Shout out to the Midas Mighty.