Legends of the Old West - LEGENDS Ep. 7 | “Deadwood: Deep Cuts”

Episode Date: June 19, 2018

WARNING: The final segment of the episode contains some strong language. It's a mash-up of stories and interviews from Deadwood about Seth Bullock, Sol Star, "Poker" Alice Tubbs, W.E. Adams vs. Al Swearengen and an odd gunfight. Plus, stories from the set of HBO's "Deadwood." Join Black Barrel+ for early access and bingeable seasons: blackbarrel.supportingcast.fm/join For more details, visit our website www.blackbarrelmedia.com and check out our social media pages. We’re @OldWestPodcast on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This episode is brought to you by Lego Fortnite. Lego Fortnite is the ultimate survival crafting game found within Fortnite. It's not just Fortnite Battle Royale with minifigures. It's an entirely new experience that combines the best of Lego play and Fortnite. Created to give players of all ages, including kids and families,

a safe digital space to play in. Download Fortnite on consoles, PC, cloud services, or Android and play LEGO Fortnite for free. Rated ESRB E10+. Make your nights unforgettable with American Express. Unmissable show coming up? Good news.

We've got access to pre-sale tickets so you don't miss it. Meeting with friends before the show? We can book your reservation. And when you get to the main event, skip to the good bit using the card member entrance. Let's go seize the night. That's the powerful backing of American Express.

Visit amex.ca slash yamex. Benefits vary by card. Other conditions apply. Alice Tubbs was deep into a Pharaoh game, and she knew something wasn't right. She was losing, and Alice Tubbs did not lose. She made her living playing cards, and she smelled a rat. On the first hand, she lost $500. On the second, she lost $1,000. On the third, she studied the box that held the deck of cards. As the dealer slid a card out, similar to the process of modern-day blackjack,

there was a little movement in the box. The motion wasn't as natural or fluid as it should have been. movement in the box. The motion wasn't as natural or fluid as it should have been. She caught him. She whipped out a.38 caliber revolver that she kept on her at all times. She pointed it at the dealer, who was no doubt shocked at the turn of events. Then she said, If you'd done that cleverly, there wouldn't be any kick. I can admire a clever crook, I'll admit that. But a clumsy one like you? Now before I pull this trigger, you give me back my money. And he did. The gambling hall gave her back all her money. As a podcast network, our first priority has always been audio and the stories we're able to share with you. But we also sell merch.

And organizing that was made both possible and easy with Shopify. Shopify is the global commerce platform that helps you sell and grow at every stage of your business. From the launch your online shop stage all the way to the did we just hit a million orders stage. online shop stage all the way to the did we just hit a million orders stage. Whether you're selling scented soap or offering outdoor outfits, Shopify helps you sell everywhere. They have an all-in-one e-commerce platform and in-person POS system, so wherever and whatever you're selling, Shopify's got you covered. With the internet's best converting checkout, 36% better on average compared to other leading commerce platforms, Shopify helps you turn browsers into buyers. Shopify has allowed us to share something tangible with the podcast

community we've built here, selling our beanies, sweatshirts, and mugs to fans of our shows without taking up too much time from all the other work we do to bring you even more great content. And it's not just us. Shopify powers 10% of all e-commerce in the U.S. Shopify is also the global force behind Allbirds, Rothy's, and Brooklinen, and millions of other entrepreneurs of every size across 175 countries. Because businesses that grow, grow with Shopify. a $1 per month trial period at shopify.com slash realm, all lowercase. Go to shopify.com slash r e a l m now to grow your business no matter what stage you're in. shopify.com slash realm. Welcome to the Legends of the Old West podcast. I'm your host, Chris Wimmer, and today we're telling a few more stories about some of the colorful characters of Deadwood. Plus, I'll take you to the town of Deadwood so you can hear from a few people who live and breathe Deadwood history. Alice Tubbs was a classic Old West character, even though she was born in Great Britain. She was a blue-eyed beauty who drank a lot and smoked big cigars.

She was a gambler, a madam, and a bootlegger, and one of the many great characters in Deadwood lore. By the time she arrived in Deadwood in 1890, she was already known as Poker Alice, but she acquired the last name Tubbs when she married Warren Tubbs. Warren scratched out a living as a painter, but it was Alice's winnings as a master poker player that supported the seven children they had together. Alice loved poker, and she was good at it. Rich men, who naturally thought they were better at cards, learned their lessons the hard way as she repeatedly cleaned them out. Then she'd go on shopping sprees in New York City and come back with closets full

of new dresses. Later in life, she ran a bordello in Sturgis, South Dakota called Poker's Palace that was incredibly popular with soldiers. One night, it was filled to capacity, so she locked the doors to keep out any more customers. Disgruntled soldiers outside threw rocks through the windows and cut the electrical wires so the place would go dark. Alice grabbed a rifle and fired out the windows to make them stop. Unfortunately, she killed a sergeant and wounded a private. When she was hauled into court to face the charges, the judge started grilling her about the layout of her house, the brothel. She shut down that line of questioning real quick with this retort.

Hell, judge, you've been in my place so many times, there ain't a window or a door in the whole damn house you don't know about. Besides, it was so dark in that room, nobody saw who did the shooting. Now, charge us with something or let us go. She was charged with simply keeping a house of ill repute. She paid a fine and that was that, though the judge probably won in the long run, as the brothel was forced to shut down shortly thereafter. probably won in the long run, as the brothel was forced to shut down shortly thereafter.

Poker Alice was as colorful as they came, and she lived a hard life, there's no doubt. But she had fun too. When she started up a game, her favorite line was, Praise the Lord and place your bets. I'll take your money with no regrets. In the previous episode, we barely scratched the surface of Seth Bullock, so let's finish up some of the highlights of his incredible life. If you remember, he was raised by a strict military father, so he was all about law and order. He was tall and charismatic and rarely used his gun.

According to his grandson, he rarely needed to. Here's the famous quote, he could outstare a mad cobra or a rogue elephant. With those abilities, you can see why he didn't need to draw on a lawbreaker very often. breaker very often. The murder of Wild Bill Hickok jump-started Bullock's career. Hickok was killed on August 2nd, 1876, and by the end of the month, Bullock was the de facto sheriff of Deadwood. He wasn't the first man to hold the office, but he was the best. One of the two men who preceded him was Con Stapleton, who was playing poker with Wild Bill at the time Bill was killed. Bullock enlisted some fearless deputies, and they started cleaning up Deadwood.

But Bullock was also a realist. He knew that a mining camp like this had to have an entertainment district, so to speak. So he made a deal with Al Swearengen. entertainment district, so to speak. So he made a deal with Al Swearengen. They drew an imaginary line across Main Street that divided the town into two districts. The lower end would be the seedier neighborhoods that would be home to most of the saloons. That area was called the Badlands, and it was basically under the control of Swearengen. The upper end of Main Street would be the more respectable area.

Based on his work in Deadwood, Bullock was appointed the Sheriff of Lawrence County by Governor Pennington in 1877. In 1884, he was elevated to Deputy U.S. Marshal in charge of all of Western Dakota Territory. It was also in that year that he made a new, lifelong friend. Bullock was out on the range pursuing a horse thief named Crazy Steve when he ran across a party of men who had just captured the very outlaw he was looking for. Bullock started talking to the deputy sheriff who caught Crazy Steve. That man turned out to be an ambitious explorer who was hungry for adventure. That man turned out to be an ambitious explorer who was hungry for adventure. He came from a wealthy family in New York City, but he had gone west to see the frontier before it disappeared. That man was Theodore Roosevelt, and Roosevelt and Bullock became fast friends.

Back in Deadwood, Starr and Bullock's hardware store was destroyed by the fire of 1894. So, Bullock took the opportunity to build the finest hotel in town in its place. The Bullock Hotel would boast three stories and 64 rooms that were steam-heated. It had a bathroom on each floor. That was real luxury when it opened for business in 1896, and you can still stay in the hotel today, though it now boasts bathrooms in every room. Legend has it that Bullock's ghost haunts the hotel, so watch out for that too. Two years later, Teddy Roosevelt led his Rough Riders to Cuba in the Spanish-American War.

He appointed Bullock captain of the Black Hills Rough Riders to Cuba in the Spanish-American War. He appointed Bullock captain of the Black Hills Rough Riders. Bullock was 51 years old by that time, but his troop never actually made it to the battlefields. They made it as far as the training ground in Louisiana, but that was it. Bullock would have fought if called upon, there's no doubt about that. But he didn't have to. When Roosevelt was elected president in 1901, Bullock and 50 cowboys, including early western movie star Tom Mix, rode in the inaugural parade. In 1905, Roosevelt appointed his old friend, Marshal of South Dakota. Bullock held the post for 10 years, during which it was still a very dangerous job. The Wild West was not gone yet in the Dakotas. During Bullock's tenure, more than a dozen other marshals were killed in the line of duty, but he survived. For his courage, integrity,

and service, Roosevelt renamed Scruton Peak in the Black Hills to Seth Bullock Lookout. Roosevelt said of his friend, Captain Bullock is a true Westerner, the finest type of frontiersman. Roosevelt died in 1919, and Bullock quickly enlisted the Society of Black Hills Pioneers to erect a monument to his friend on Sheep Mountain near Deadwood. Bullock needed them to hurry. He was dying of cancer and he knew he didn't have long to live. The workers finished the project in a rush and it was dedicated in September 1919, two months before Bullock passed away. When Bullock died, the town honored another of his requests.

He wanted to be buried with a view of Roosevelt's monument. Today, if you follow a long, winding path 750 feet above Mount Moriah Cemetery, where Wild Bill and Calamity Jane are buried, you'll find the grave of Seth Bullock. It looks out on Sheep Mountain, which was later renamed Mount Roosevelt, something Bullock surely would have liked. If there was a Mount Rushmore of

Deadwood, it would have to include the image of Seth Bullock, as well as his longtime business partner, Saul Starr. From almost the moment Saul Starr set foot in Deadwood, he distinguished himself as a businessman and civic leader. Along with their hardware store, Starr and Bullock started the Office of Starr and Bullock, Auctioneers and Commission Merchants. They also started a flour business, the kind of flour that's used for baking. Starr was generous, genial, jovial, social, and always lent a helping hand. It's not hard to see why he was a popular man in town. He became postmaster of Deadwood and served as mayor for 13 years. He was chairman of the first state Republican convention when South Dakota was admitted to the Union in 1889. It was said of him in 1901,

any brief epitome of Mr. Starr's career gives only a meager idea of his strong personality, which has drawn to him in close friendship more associates than it is the good fortune of many men to enjoy. And since he is still in the prime of his life, whatever good fortune the future has in store for him, social or political, will be a success rejoiced by all. That's pretty high praise. In 1890, he and Bullock founded the town of Bellefourche. It quickly became the county seat of Butte County.

Starr passed away in 1917, two years before his friend Bullock, and was buried in St. Louis. A friend of Starr's in Montana put it eloquently. He left us for his last lone prospector tour, and if the streets up there are paved with gold, Saul will be right at home. And here's one final nugget about Saul Starr. I like this story. In 1905, Starr received a letter from a company in Albany, New York, that said it wanted to do business with him. The Albany Perforated Wrapping Company wanted to send him a one-year supply of toilet paper so that everyone in Deadwood would use its product. And Star's cost for these 12,000 sheets of toilet paper was just $1.

The company would even pay all the transportation and delivery fees. That's how badly it wanted to be in business with Saul Starr and Deadwood. If we're going to fill the third spot on the Mount Rushmore of Deadwood, a good candidate would surely be W.E. Adams. Dime novels and TV shows never talk about William Emery Adams. He wasn't a gunfighter, he wasn't an outlaw, he wasn't a lawman, and he didn't die in a hail of bullets. But if you know anything about Deadwood, or if you've ever been there, you know the town would not be what it is without him.

The Adams Museum is named after him. His home, the Adams House, is a museum in and of itself. Two of the interviews on this episode were recorded there. His influence was enormous, and his life was so full that I'll never be able to do it justice here. He was born in Michigan and grew up in Minnesota before moving to Deadwood with his brother James in 1877. Together, they opened the Banner Grocery. They had the same philosophy as Saul Starr and Al Swearingen, though they went about it more like Starr than Swearingen. Instead of making their fortunes by freezing in a creek or digging in a hole to find gold, they wouldn't mind the miners. Their business was vital to the community and profitable. Unfortunately, like many others, it was destroyed in the Great Fire of 1879. But the Adams brothers were undeterred.

They built their next store out of brick to protect it from fire. James moved to California in 1889, but William stayed in Deadwood and kept expanding his business. He served six terms as mayor. He helped build the Mount Roosevelt Memorial. He helped lay the first brick streets in Deadwood. He was on the boards of banks, civic organizations, and the Chamber of Commerce. In 1901, he got out of the retail business and began a wholesale grocery operation that supplied goods to the entire Black Hills region. But his life was not entirely full of grand achievements.

He experienced immense tragedy as well. His wife and two daughters both passed away before he did, leaving him alone in his later years. But he found a new lease on life when he began a whirlwind romance with a much younger woman. It was his second wife, Mary, who encouraged him to build a museum in Deadwood, one that still stands today. While there are a hundred crazy or fun stories about early Deadwood, I want to wrap up with this little gem. It's one of the more absurd gunfights you'll ever hear about. Johnny Varnes was one of the head honchos in the criminal underworld of Deadwood.

There are reports that he and his partner Tim Brady tried to hire men to kill Wild Bill Hickok in the summer of 1876. One of the men they supposedly tried to hire was Charlie Storms. Charlie wisely said thanks, but no thanks. Then two weeks after Hickok was killed, Charlie Storms and Johnny Varnes got into a shooting match of their own. And of course, it started over a card game. Charlie and Johnny had a disagreement, so they took it outside. They had a shootout in the middle of Gold Street. Guns blazed and windows shattered.

Ten shots were fired in all, and not a single one of them hit either man. They were completely unharmed. Johnny and Charlie threw up their hands and called it quits. The only casualty was Joe Ludwig, who took a stray bullet in the hip as he stood inside the Wertheimer & Company store. It was a memorable fight, but one that no one really wanted to remember. Thanks for listening to some more stories about Deadwood history. And now stick around for some stories about the town's history and the Deadwood TV show from some locals who visited the production all right everyone welcome to a very special interview with Daryl Nelson,

exhibits director of Deadwood History. He runs all the exhibits at the Adams Museum. If you have ever been to the Adams Museum, you will know that it is the centerpiece of history in Deadwood. I was just there recently. There's some fantastic exhibits. I can't wait to go back and do a thorough exploration of the whole thing. So, Daryl, welcome to the show.

Thank you very much for agreeing to do this. Thank you. Thank you. This is a pleasure. So we, before we turn on the microphones, we decided that we were going to talk about, we were going to do a little compare and contrast between the quintessential good guy of W.E. Adams in Deadwood history and the quintessential bad guy in Al Swearengen. So let's start with the, just the general compare and contrast. Can we do a quick summary? The listeners have probably already heard various parts about their various histories. So what's the quick compare and contrast between these two gentlemen? Swearingen ran saloons and dance halls on Main Street in early Deadwood, known for violence himself.

in early Deadwood, known for violence himself and his gym theater was the site of ongoing fights and conflicts. He was a shyster, a con man, a mean guy, and he did everything he was supposed to do as a bad guy. Adams, on the other hand, same town, same time, came as a prospector. He very quickly saw what was going to make money. He was a successful businessman. He spent his life being a businessman and a civic leader. He was a good guy. He was generous. He was the opposite of Swearingen.

Same town, same time, different parts of the city. But history has not treated them the same. And I'm intrigued by why we have done that. Exactly. That was one of the things we discussed before we turned on the microphones was, why does history remember Al Swearengen so much or so prominently and has almost forgotten W.E. Adams? I'm wondering if that's a commentary on us and what it is that we like in a story. In some ways, Swearengen is entertaining, but he's quite predictable. And Adams, he's not entertaining, but he did surprising things. He did good things. He was proactive. He was visionary. In some ways,

a very contemporary man. So I'm not sure it's about the qualities of the men specifically. I think it's what we have come to prefer in our contemporary media as this qualifies as a good story. And obviously, one of the big things that I certainly have become fascinated in was the TV show of Deadwood. So as we're talking about these different things, we can see that's a huge example as to what people have been interested in. Obviously, Al Swearengin was a very prominent figure in that show. And I'll admit that I loved every time he was on the screen.

It was fun and interesting. And W.E. Adams is not there at all. There's no presence in the show whatsoever. What that show can't do because of the nature of the show is that the other part of town was full of good people, starting libraries, starting churches, raising children, businesses, and they both were fully aware of each other's presence. But for the most part, good people don't make good stories. I'm not sure what that's about. Yeah, but at the same time, when I visited the museum and saw all the

different exhibits there, we talked about some of. But at the same time, when I visited the museum and saw all the different exhibits there, we talked about some of the things that the TV show got right. There were several things. For instance, I said in the introductory episode about Deadwood that one of the big things that the TV show got right was the feel of the town, the claustrophobic nature of it, the narrowness of Main Street, the narrowness of the Gulch, everybody living on top of each other. And it was a filthy place.

And in fact, the profanity was famous. Not the same words, but the same level of profanity. The Deadwood streets were famously muddy. One of the first officials that city council appointed was a health inspector. Right. And some of the first laws were about you can't leave dead animals here. You can't let this effluent go out on the Main Street. So it was a mixed bag you know deadwood was famous is somewhat justified to be famous for these things but at the same time another part of town was thriving and they had permanence in mind

the prospectors came they didn't come to build a town they came you know the quintessential uh private enterprise venture come make money make money, and leave. Right. That was their goal. And other people came to start businesses and stay. So part of what I find about Deadwood that's dynamic is that they were both going on, and there's several visions for what being a hero is about and several kinds of commitments to the community. It's a fascinating mix.

Oh, yeah. Certainly, as we've been here walking around, it's really fascinating to stand in the middle of Main Street. Right. This morning, obviously, as we're recording this, as people are going to hear it, it's not the day that they're listening to it, but we went down early morning and stood in the middle of Main Street,

and you could see just how narrow the street is. You could see where all the different businesses that have become famous in Deadwood are within about 150 feet of each other. You can just bounce from one to the other. Right. And if you're standing downtown, you could look from one reach to the other. And Deadwood, it's a narrow strip in a gulch. You can see, typically, a lot of times in the show, you would hear a phrase, rim to rim, across the gulch. You can of times in the show you would hear this uh a phrase rim to rim across across the gulch you can really stand in the middle of main street and on if you stand in the

middle of gold street you can look straight across the gulch from one rim to the other and you see just how narrow it is and you can see you can imagine just how muddy and filthy it would have been when they're working in the main street and and it really is it almost really is a lower end there's a the main street slopes upward toward the quote-unquote respectable area of town. And that's the part that's called the Badlands, and there are reasons for that. Another point that I wanted to go back to was that another aspect that the HBO series got right was the way prostitutes were treated. They were an abused bunch of women, and Swearingen was right in the middle of that. I think it was 1893, the date. I'm not sure of the exact date. But

in the newspapers, he brings 11 girls, teenagers from Chicago. That's typical of his technique. And so the law had to come in. And remarkably, not all the women wanted to get away from the situation really but that is typical of him um throughout the 1880s and 1890s um he make he as a person does not make news as much as the ongoing fights and brawls and drunkenness and considerable petty well sometimes not petty violence that happened around his theater so that was his At the same time, Adams is the other in the town making money, making money, making money, trying this, trying that, expanding two different worlds. Yeah, two completely. Yeah, I know in my research I read that Al Swearengen would place ads in newspapers for

dance hall girls or housekeepers or anything other than what he intended for them to do once he got them to Deadwood. And so he not only just physically brought and recruited women from places like Chicago, which they actually talk about in this series of Deadwood, but he would place ads and then lure women to town with this promise. And it is the rare woman who said, hell no, I'm not doing this. A famous case of a woman, Inez Sexton. She had been a singer with pretty high aspiration for herself. And she got here and said, I'm not doing this.

And the citizens helped her to find other work and to get out of town. Really? Yeah. So it's a good story. But the HBO story really nailed that because the prostitutes, which were given all kinds of kind of whimsical names by the newspaper, resulted in a number of many suicides, anonymous grave sites up in our version of Boot Hill. It was a tough life. I can only imagine.

I can only imagine what it would have been like. There was one situation in which W. Adams actually confronts Swearengen about a debt. And so the two met. And W.E. Adams, he was this proper guy, he did not back down. So there was some kind of, I forget what the loan was for, but Swearengen used all of the furniture in the Gem Theater as collateral. And Adams gets tired of waiting.

2,300 bucks. Quite a bit of money then. So Adams confronts him and says, Al, or whatever he would have said, I need the money now. And Swearengen said no. Soams confronts him and says al or whatever he would said i need the money now and swearing said no so he comes back again and says all right give me a thousand bucks and we'll call it good swearing says no 500 bucks and adam says no no i want it all uh this is it so he gets the sheriff and they they bring wagons and they take all the swearing furniture they actually confiscated it he kind of wins but by the end of the day, Swearengen had filled it up again, and he was ready for the show that night. So he

didn't actually have to pay off the debt and money. No, he didn't. He just replaced the furniture. He was repeated to close down or brought into court, and it didn't deter him. So he was focused, and it'd be nice to pass judgment on the saying, well, he was all this. He had his reasons, and there was probably at least twice in his life when he was compassionate and considerate. Who knows? But he was tenacious. He did one thing well. And I don't know his background. He was family of eight kids. I don't know how he was raised and what his expectations for values were, but he was doing what he knew how to do. Unfortunately, a lot of people got hurt and abused along the way. And in Adam's case, a lot of good things happened.

In fact, to me, he's a better example of a man who's bigger than life. Because when he died in 1934, he gave his wife $40,000 in securities, the house, the mansion, and his cars. She invested well in Disney and IBM, made a boatload of money, and we are still getting money to this day from the foundation that Steve established. So in the biggest sense of the word, they are bigger than life because the effect of their values is still being felt today. Perfect. That's a great note to end on.

We've seen a lot of those contributions as we've been around town. That's right. I had forgotten that part of my research, but I'm very glad you brought that up. We'll wrap it up on that note. That's a great way. They really are larger than life characters. They've had a profound impact on Deadwood, certainly the Deadwood area, and it's still happening.

It's still continuing to this day. It's ongoing. Great. Thank you very you very much. Thank you so much. Shop with Rakuten and you'll get it. What's it? It's the best deal, the highest cash back, the most savings on your shopping. So join Rakuten and start getting cash back at Sephora, Old Navy, Expedia, and other stores you love. You can even stack sales on top of cash back. Just start your shopping with Rakuten to save money at over 750 stores. Join for free at Rakuten.ca or get the Rakuten app. That's R-A-K-U-T-E-N. All right, I'm here with Ty Sanford, the assistant director of Deadwood Alive.

We're going to get into a little more detail about the trial of Jack McCall and some other fun stories related to Deadwood, but we going to start with this this element that I found particularly curious when I was doing my research about a potential conspiracy in Deadwood after Hickok arrived with some of the criminal underworld wanted to assassinate him essentially they tried to hire people to kill Hickok and the two names that rise to the top when we're always talking about this are Tim Brady and Johnny Varnes. So what more can you tell us about this potential conspiracy where maybe Brady and Varnes or other people in Deadwood tried to hire assassins to kill Hickok? Well

everybody knew about Wild Bill. He'd been made very famous in the old dime novels. Made a name for himself as a lawman. And there was more money to be had at the time for people if there was no official law and order in Deadwood. So in order to hopefully try to keep that from happening, they figured the best way was to kill Wild Bill. Of course, they didn't know that Bill had no designs on a job as a lawman there. Right. They thought he was maybe there to be a marshal at some point. Because of his history. He just wanted to mine and make some money for his new bride. So it was all kind of a sad wasted effort on their part. Were you able to find any other evidence of any of this kind of

conspiracy? Any other reports about any any of these activities? Oh, when McCall fled the camp he went over into Wyoming territory, eventually wound up in Laramie City. And he gave a report to the paper there in Laramie, and he told the reporter about a sum of almost $800 that had gone missing from his person. Where he came up with that money, we're not entirely sure. Given McCall's kind of seedy element, he could have either stolen it or he could have been assassination money. Right. Again, we're not entirely sure because when is McCall telling the truth and when is he lying? Right, of course. He goes on, McCall says that Bill took him for all he was worth and was like, well, you know,

fine, whatever. And he slapped him across the face and apparently Hickok took it kindly. Well, no. Given how we know what the face, and apparently Hickok took it kindly. Well, no. Given how we know what Bill is like, there's no way McCall would have slapped him and got away with it. No. So he tells that just a sentence after almost, talking about losing a sum of $800. And when's he telling the truth? We never quite know.

Right. So let's jump into the kind of trial itself of Jack McCall. So what was the most compelling part of the trial to you? You've done a ton of research about this. You performed the trial of Jack McCall for people who come to the town of Deadwood. What's been the most interesting part to you? I still find it interesting that they actually found him not guilty, despite all the evidence that was brought forth

and the defense not trying to say he didn't do it, but that they used somewhat of an affirmative defense that he only did it because Bill had killed a brother of his. Being in a mining camp, it's somewhat of an acceptable defense for a vengeance killing. Jury nullification was very much a thing then and is now, and the jury must have figured that he given the fact that Bill killed his brother whether that was true or not which we found out later it wasn't they figured

that he was not guilty. My own kind of personal theory on that is we're not too far removed from the Civil War you You have General Sherman as march to the sea destroyed so much of the south. These boys went home to nothing. There was nothing around for him. So what do you try to do? You go from boomtown to boomtown trying to make back a little bit of what you lost. And I figure those boys came to Deadwood Camp trying to make back what they lost. Everybody knew that Bill was a Yankee. He fought for the North. He was a staunch abolitionist. And some of them might have tried to weasel their way onto that jury. They knew that McCall was from the South. You know, Bill's a Yankee. He shot a brother of McCall's. Maybe he's not guilty. Sure. Okay. I don't have a lot to point

to to say that that is, but that's been my kind of personal theory about what might have happened. And so one of the things, one of the probably the most obvious thing that we have to talk about is actually why McCall killed Hickok. It seems to be almost taken for granted that it was the perceived slight that happened in the poker game previously that Hickok and the guys at the table on August 1st cleaned out McCall because he was a terrible poker player and Hickok gave him a little bit of money afterwards to go eat and kind

of cool off and then maybe come back and play later once he'd regrouped and so that's the only thing we really have to go on that maybe says why McCall would have killed him so let's just ask the question flat out why do you think Jack McCall actually killed Wild Bill Hickok? I would say for the reasons you just said. McCall being a relatively young kid, he was in his mid-20s, and being cleaned out by someone of Hickok's nature, what Bill was trying to do was a kindness, and McCall saw it as an offense. Bill, through his years, he was old and wise. Even at 39, he was old and wise.

And he was just trying to take care of the kid. He knew he was out way far away from home, and he just wanted to help him out. And McCall was too hot-headed or bull-headed to see it as a gift and a kindness instead of taking it as an offense. And near and honest honest I can figure that's the closest I can come to for an emotive. And have there been other theories posited over the years? Has anyone speculated on something other than that? I mean obviously we've already discussed the potential assassination element of being paid by the criminal underworld in Deadwood but is there

anything else anyone's come up with? There were a couple of articles that people wrote in the papers saying well yeah I remember this incident happening. Bill was down there and he was in Abilene, he was the marshal, and he went into this Baker's office, or Baker's store, and he goes out to the counter and he asked for a couple of rolls. So the Baker provides it and then asked for payment. Well Bill didn't take any payment out, so he grabs the Baker's head, pulls it down the counter, puts his pistol and shoots him, kills him. Wow.

And he goes up to the next store, it's a saloon. Jack McCall's brother happened to be the one running that saloon. So he does the same thing, gets a couple of shots of whiskey, refuses to pay. McCall's brother starts to get in his face about it, so he just grabs his brother, shoots him and kills him. And now McCall, being distant enough that he hears a couple of gunshots but he doesn't know exactly what's going on grabs his pistol and comes out and according to the story he confronts bill on main street with his pistol drawn he tells him to get out of town

and hickok complies and decides to leave well now what we know about bill that's not going to happen bill certainly at that time would not have left without a fight. Somebody comes out and brandishes a pistol, no way. But people wanted to, I think, think of him as the underdog. This is the era where we have the Robin Hoods coming out, like Sam Bass, the Robin Hood of Texas, or Jesse James, or these little guys who are fighting against a big, bad government. And people see them as heroes fighting against

the government in the form of Bill Hickok. Okay. And so even if we, even if they, obviously, like you said, if Jack McCall comes out in the street and calls out wild Bill Hickok, if that had actually happened, that story would have ended much differently. We wouldn't even have the events in Deadwood years later. But also the idea that Hickok would have ended much differently. We wouldn't even have the events in Deadwood years later. But also the idea that Hickok would have just point-blank murdered two people to lead up to that event is so absurd that that part's not even believable before you even get to the part about McCall calling out Hickok. That's just such an aggressive and extreme move, not only for a guy who, like Hickok, wasn't that type of person,

but he was also a lawman. The idea that as a marshal, he would have just murdered two people for getting bread and whiskey is pretty extreme too. So that story obviously is a little bit aggressive, a little bit on the extreme side of things. About as ordinary as he ever got was when he was with Bill Cody doing the Scouts of the Plains, and they would give him pistols full of blanks, and he'd walk up to the extras as they were dead on the ground,

fire next to their pants, and start their pants on fire. Which is a little bit ornery. That's about as aggressive, I think, as he got. Yeah, yeah, I think. Bill was always a prankster. Well, and that's certainly funny, but also much, much further away from just straight-up execution murders.

Because you didn't want to pay for two rolls of bread. Mm-hmm. That's pretty aggressive. All right, great. Thanks a lot, Ty. We appreciate your time today. We've gone through a couple different elements of the Jack McCall trial. We really appreciate your knowledge and your time. Thank you very much. Oh, you're very welcome, Chris. Thanks for having me on. I'm here with two of the owners of the Saloon number 10 here in Deadwood, South Dakota. We want to talk about their experience on the set of the TV show Deadwood. My three interviewees this morning have all been on the set. You guys all got to participate. You all got to see what it was like, which makes all the rest of us who just watch the show very jealous. So why don't you all

introduce yourselves and then tell us about your experiences I'm Laurie Keane I'm Louie Lalonde I'm James Olsen now Louie once you jump in and tell us how this all came about you guys were able to go to set after I guess some of the actors came here to visit South Dakota visit Deadwood for like a site visit or something like that tell me about how all that came around we made some very very um genuine friendships with um a handful of them when they came up for a I was somewhat of a premier come to Deadwood and and meet the um meet the actors meet the actors and we hosted a wine dinner in this here at the number 10 okay and along with that you know the whole city and anybody involved really got to know them a lot better I Laurie and I and Jim you know pushed a little bit more and and we deepen those friendships by um you know making

a point of of going out there so you guys had met uh who the actor who many people will certainly recognize as dan doherty w.r.o brown when he came here to deadwood with most of the cast is that how that friendship developed they all came out here to see the town maybe do a little promotional type thing and you guys became friends with him and so when you were in Los Angeles, you got a hold of him to see if maybe you could go visit the set. It was cold, surprisingly cold, and I was wearing my Saloon No. 10 leather jacket, which is maybe one of the few letters I've earned, and I'm standing there, and there's a bunch of people standing around, and I said, what's going on?

He says, well, they're filming in the building. So they had a little tent set up and I Marty and I walked over there and they had like a television only it was a tunnel to the real television so they could see the filming. So I stuck my head in I'm watching it as I'm sitting there somebody comes or standing there somebody comes up beside me and says what are you doing I look over and I said it looks like I'm getting in your way and he laughed and says I'm David Mills who are you I can introduce myself and we talked for a little bit and he says do you want to be in the show I said sure and that's how we got invited the next day okay Ah, okay.

So you just went for just a regular visit on one day and then... Yes. With Earl Brown. Yeah, with Earl and then your interaction with David Milch got you guys an entree to come back. Yeah. Milch is another good guy.

Yeah, he was. He actually came to Deadwood and did a lot of research before even filming the show. Did he? I think he was here for two or three weeks, wasn't he? Oh, wow. I never actually dealt to him,

but I know some of our blackjack dealers downstairs dealt to him and met him, and it got a real feel for what the town was all about. Oh, fantastic. I'd never heard that story. I assumed he had done a ton of research. I'd heard various stories about all the different reading he had done and everything. You can tell by the dialogue and some of the little Details that he obviously did a lot of research, but I didn't know he actually came here

Spend some significant time here before the show got started. It makes sense Yeah, I can understand so so then so you you had your first day your visit So tell me about the second day tell me about going back and potentially preparing to be We had to be there at 7 in the morning for makeup. And it was like... It was fun. I liked it. It was like an hour. You didn't have to wear makeup, Jim.

Yeah, you did. Yeah, exactly. We didn't get to wear makeup. No. So Lori and I were prepared. We were involved. I told me not to shave. We were ready to, you know...

We had visions of being beautiful. Deliverance, yeah. Right, so tell me about the two parts that you guys were potentially going to play in the show let's start with you guys i'm not going to say what i want to say we we were elected to be to be whores yeah we were whores and we wanted to be really pretty whores and and we went into costuming that was our first first part the first thing they said is that we couldn't wear our bras.

Do you remember that? Yep, exactly. And that we had to take all of our makeup off. Those girls don't wear any makeup. Really? No, and they wanted to cut our fingernails. They wanted to color our hair. They put extensions in our hair.

The hair people weren't happy that we were there because there weren't supposed to be any women on set that day. Okay. We were just kind of a fluke right right and I think as Laura because we talked about previously you guys were you assigned to the Bella Union or the gem we were at the Bella you know the value I say based on the picture we've seen of you guys in your full costume it looked like you were probably part of the Bella Union crew yeah we were we're ritzy. Yeah, exactly. I don't think that costume looked very ritzy though. We were across the street. Yeah, so Jim tell me about your experience there. We were supposed to

cross and the shooting takes place. The Earp brothers are loading their wagon. Okay. We walked across the mouth of the alley as the Pinkerton guy comes in he says something Morgan shoots him yeah and we must have must have walked across there a dozen times and each time was never quite right the director finally tells us you just heard a shot what do you do and I said well in real life I hit the ground so I don't get my ass shot off so you actually are on camera you got to be there did you guys actually make it into the episode? We did. They did but what Laurie and I. Laurie and Louie you guys. They cut for lunch and then we

we quit. Yeah we politely told AG. We weren't having any fun because we didn't like our hair. We did. Your time as Bella Union employees was very short. We quit. We said, alright, we're done. We quit. They did have a small flashback. We told A.P. Lyle, who was the producer of the show, we met him during lunch and we just said, I think

we're going to quit. I think we're done. We weren't supposed to be here anyway. There weren't supposed to be any women on the set anyway. This really isn't our cup of tea. So you guys actually got to be there and that's obviously one of the reasons you're here. Yeah. We're here to help you.

We're here to help you. We're here to help you. We're here to help you. We're here to help you. We're here't supposed to be any women on the set anyway. This really isn't our cup of tea. So you guys actually got to be there and that's obviously one of the big jealousies of many of us fans. We have seen it, we can imagine what it was like, but can you tell us what the set was actually like? The claustrophobic nature of it, the mud everywhere, all of that. It was really pretty magical. It really was. It was amazing. I have always thought if you could recreate any day in after growing up in Deadwood, any day just for curiosity's sake, what

would it be like to have been here in Deadwood in 1876 when the sounds and the smells and the mud and the big oxen rolling into town and the stagecoach and the pianos. Just the energy alone. The smells. Think of that. I mean, what would it have been like? Thanks for listening to this bonus episode of Deadwood Stories. Thanks for listening to this bonus episode of Deadwood Stories.

Like I've said before, we've got some big things on the horizon, so stay tuned for news about the show. We'll see you soon.