Let's Find Common Ground - Inside the East Wing: The Role of the First Lady

Episode Date: October 11, 2024

CPF Director Bob Shrum and Marylouise Oates, former activist and LA Times journalist, join former First Lady staffers Anita McBride, Noelia Rodriguez, and Tina Tchen for a discussion on the influence of presidential First Ladies on politics, policy, and American society.   Featuring:  Anita McBride: Former Chief of Staff to First Lady Laura Bush Noelia Rodriguez: Former Press Secretary and Director of Communications for First Lady Laura Bush; Former CPF Fellow Tina Tchen: Executive Vice President and Chief Strategy and Impact Officer for the Obama Foundation; Former Chief of Staff to First Lady Michelle Obama Marylouise Oates: Former Activist and LA Times Journalist who covered First Ladies Bob Shrum: Director, Center for the Political Future; Warschaw Chair in Practical Politics, USC Dornsife

Welcome to the Bully Pulpit from the University of Southern California Center for the Political Future. Our podcast brings together America's top politicians, journalists, academics, and strategists from across the political spectrum for discussions on hot button issues where we respect each other and respect the truth. We hope you enjoy these conversations. Welcome everyone to what I believe will be a lively and insightful event focused on the role and significance of first ladies in America. And I guess I should add, perhaps soon a first gentleman.

We don't know that yet. I'm Bob Shrum, the director of the Center for the Political Future here at USC Dornsife for those of you who don't know me. Let me introduce our panelists and my co-moderator. Tina Chen is the Executive Vice President and Impact Officer at the Obama Foundation and the former Chief of Staff to First Lady Michelle Obama. Anita McBride is Director of the First Ladies Project at American University, former chief of staff to First Lady Laura Bush, and former director of White House personnel under President Reagan and President George H.W. Bush. She is also the co-author of a fascinating new book, Remember the First Ladies, a groundbreaking

survey of their influence across American history. And by the way, when we conclude for about a half hour, she's willing to sign books for you. We have books for you if you go out that door. She can't bilocate and be in both places. Thank you. Noelia Rodriguez is the Chief of Staff at MetroLink, former Deputy Mayor of Los Angeles, and the Press Secretary and Director of Communications

in the White House for Laura Bush. And I have to add, she was a spectacular fellow for us at the Center for the Political Future. My co-moderator is Mary Louise Oates, who covered both Nancy Reagan and Barbara Bush for the Los Angeles Times. And I have to add, she's the love of my life and has put up with me and kept me going for four decades.

We'll have a conversation with the panel for about 40 minutes and then take questions from our audience. Otzi, why don't you kick this off? So I covered, when they came to LA, and occasionally I went to Washington, both Mrs. Reagan and her posse of friends and Mrs. Bush. And that was Mrs. Bush. OK.

OK, Anita, I'm going to start with you. Your book, as Bob suggested, both complex and revealing. So let me ask you this. There was a widespread impression that in very different ways Eleanor Roosevelt and then Jackie Kennedy revolutionized and elevated the role of first ladies in our public life. Is that accurate? I think that's absolutely accurate. I think we, it is hard to not recognize that Eleanor Roosevelt is the most activist first lady in our history, bar none.

Now, part of that is she had 12 years to do the job. So there was a lot of time to be an activist and she had an extraordinary sense of communication and connecting with the American public. She did a radio broadcast every Sunday night. She did a daily column called My Day. She was a paid speaker before she came to the White House. She was very politically active when her husband even ran for governor of New York. She wanted to have a role. She was afraid to be conscripted to the role First Lady, that that would convey somehow that all she would do would be a social hostess.

She wanted more. So she is one of three First Ladies that get their own chapter in our book. And if I can mention, this started first as a textbook. Last year, we published a textbook that was a precursor to the one Bob held up. That is the first ever textbook on this topic. And it is for undergraduate levels,

so we are teaching it and sharing it at universities all over the country because all of you should know, we should all know the story of these women and their contributions to the presidency. Now the difference with Jackie Kennedy is, in fact, she's in the chapter that we write about First Ladies who stepped back from activism,

even though she holds such a special place in our country and in our national culture. Activism and on issues was not what she wanted to do, but what she laid for a foundation for, something Tina and I are on the board of, the White House Historical Association, established 63 years ago, to do two things. One, to be the preservation, conservation, protection of the White House as the museum

status that it deserved, but also to be an education center. She wanted Americans to be connected with the White House, the people who live there, the people who work there, everything that is important to telling our nation's story. I'll leave you with this last point. I once asked Caroline Kennedy, what would your mother want to be remembered for? She said, I know my mother is remembered as a style icon, but she would want to be remembered for her expansive knowledge of history.

It's interesting because most of the people here don't know this, but until she became First Lady, presidents would routinely throw furniture out of the White House and refurnish it in whatever the style of the moment was. They wanted. That's right. I mean, one president had everything. We're still going around trying to rebuy. Rebuy up all the stuff that goes on auction.

That's what she started doing. I mean, raising the money to do it. But one president had actually, or a first lady, had actually painted much of the White House in pink. Maybe Eisenhower. I wasn't going to say that. I think the president. Came a cultural thing.

I mean, you walk into any home, maybe here in California, too, in the 50s, 60s, bathrooms were pink tile, kitchens were pink tile, appliances were pink. She had an influence. So Tina and Whaley, what's your take on this? On the pink? Did you like it?

I got an opinion. Well in terms of influence of the First Ladies, of course, growing up, I think we're probably all in the same generation. It was Jackie Kennedy, Jackie O later was the role model for all of us. And of course, we remember when after President Kennedy was assassinated, how she was just so meticulous about the ceremonies afterwards, and really has set the trend for what was going to happen in later years.

But we were talking a little bit earlier about how, even thinking about if there's a possible first gentleman, will he be talked about in terms of the designer, who designed his suit, how is he wearing his hair, what's the menu item, because I know that we've had that experience in our respective roles. And certainly with Laura Bush, when she first came into the White House with President 43,

she was often asked, are you going to be more like Barbara Bush or like Hillary Clinton? And she would always say, I'm going to be Laura Bush. And she did not like the word role in terms of the First Lady, because it just felt too conscripted. And it didn't give her the latitude, or she felt it might have not given her the latitude

to do what she wanted to do. She had a great passion for literacy, because she was a librarian. And she was a teacher first and then a librarian. And then later on, well early in the administration, she took on the mantle of heart health for women and awareness. And I remember one time we were at,

she was giving a speech, and I want to say it was in Missouri, and she was talking about how the symptoms for heart health and heart attacks are so different for women than they are for men. And later on that night, there was a woman who had been in the audience and she was having the symptoms and she went to the hospital and she was having a heart attack and she never would have done that if not for Laura Bush. So that's my, just a small micro example of the influence because of the activism that

she had. But I've got other stories, Bob. We'll get going. Well, that's fine. You're going to have the opportunity that she had. But I've got other stories, Bob, but we'll get going. You're gonna have the opportunity to tell them. Thank you. Well, the thing I learned as Mrs. Obama's Chief of Staff as we traveled around the world, that this role that we have in the United States

for this activist high visibility platform for the spouse is pretty unusual. So for example, the wife of the Prime Minister in the UK, I learned, has one staff person only and that staff person is half paid for by the party and only half paid for by the government. That's it. You know, whereas you know we have you know there were entourages and many offices you know the social office, a press office, you know, there were entourages and many offices, you know, the social office, a press office, you know, policy offices working, you know, for the first lady. So it is unusual for around the world to have this platform, but it is, you know, Mrs. We

used to laugh because it comes of course with no statutory definition of a role. So it doesn't exist in the statutes anywhere. No salary, by the way, which Mrs. Obama used to point out every now and then. I'm the one here without a salary. But then also no particular mandate, which can be a little daunting as you step into this space. When we first started, Mrs. Obama knew, which I happen to go in more,

but obviously, Let's Move was the first. And she knew that from the campaign. And raising her kids, she said that on the campaign trail. I'm experiencing this. The pediatrician had told them the kids were eating unhealthily. And then also from the campaign, she had met a lot of military families

and learned those issues. Those two initiatives were very quick out of the bat. During the re-elect in 2012, we knew if we were re-elected, we would have the opportunity to do a third. And it took us a year and a half to figure it out because you have this huge opportunity here, all these issues you could do, yet you wanna do something that will have an impact.

She, I think like Mrs. Bush, didn't wanna just do stuff that was just for show, it had to actually have an impact on people and would have impacted the scale that is worthy of the first lady. Those are hard things to put together and figure out and sort of much harder than they look at look in hindsight. Let's talk a little bit more about their impact and influence.

So Anita, you write, and I didn't know this, that Abigail Adams prodded her husband, John Adams, to push through the Alien and Sedition Acts for some of the worst legislation in the history of the country. Can each of you give us a concrete example of how the First Ladies you worked with impacted public policy? Sure. Well, if you would allow me to just give short examples of each of the three first ladies that I had a chance to know and work with. Because I think when Mrs. Reagan came, and Otsie, you know this, came to Washington, it was a very tough first year for her.

Killer is right. And some of it was self-inflicted, but the majority of it was she had difficulty finding her footing. She was always more worried about President Reagan and his legacy than she ever worried about her own, which was interesting given they came from Hollywood, they understood image and she worried about his image, not hers. And it was a tough year after, of course, the assassination attempt on his life. She never fully recovered from that. But her focus on drug abuse for young children in this country, even though it had a very simple term,

just say no, it was somewhat diminished in popular culture or in media that it was too simplified. But it really did have an impact. And she cared about this. I mean, the Reagans came from California. They had a lot of friends whose children had issues with drugs. So she did care about it. And she tried to convene women, first ladies,

counterparts from around the world on this issue. And incidentally, is the first first lady ever to address the United Nations. And that was the topic on drug abuse. Barbara Bush, who had a very complex relationship with the women's movement and feminist groups because they saw her as this 19-year-old college dropout who married the love of her life, had five children, six children, one died, of course, and that never really did anything on her own.

Yet she was, and we all knew her, you may have met Barbara Bush too, a very influential and impactful First Lady, devoted to her husband, devoted to what he was trying to do for the country, passionate about the topic of literacy, established the Barbara Bush Foundation for Family Literacy within weeks of becoming first lady at the White House East Room. That organization still exists 34 years later, raising hundreds of millions of dollars operating literacy programs in all 50 states.

That is real staying power. She cared about this topic and was very influential behind the scenes in the National Literacy Act that was passed in 1991. She was an advocate, she was a lobbyist, she was a champion for that. Laura Bush, as you heard Noelia mention, of course cared about education deeply. She lived it. She was a teacher. She was a librarian. She was an advocate for education reform as First Lady of Texas and brought that initiative

with her. It was the president's signature domestic initiative in the first term. Was no child left behind. You can argue the merits of it one way or another. But- Do you remember where she was on the morning of 9-11? Yes, of course. And Noelia was with her.

She was about to do a briefing to the Congress on her early childhood cognitive... She was in Ted Kennedy's office and they were about to... She was in Ted Kennedy's office and she writes about it in her memoir, how it was so striking to her, how he was talking and having conversation while all these images were on TV. And she said said she really realized that moment here is someone who comes from a family that faced so much tragedy and it was difficult she thought for him to talk about what was happening and so made conversation to make her more comfortable.

It was very interesting. But anyway, I'll let Noelle add to some of this too because she was with her in the early years of the start of the administration. And I'll just mention one thing, as Tina said, in the second term where you consider what Mrs. Obama was going to do. It's the one thing when you are lucky to have a second term, when the American people give you a second term, you realize how long the days are, but how short the years are to get things done. And there's this real acceleration to really take on projects and get something done

and not let the time be wasted. Absolutely. So as Anita said, I was with Mrs. Bush on 9-11. But leading up to that in the summer of 2001, she had held a symposium at Georgetown University on early childhood cognitive development, because that was something she was very passionate about. She used to talk about her time in Texas as a first lady,

where she'd go to clinics and see that pediatricians would prescribe, literally, reading to your children. And she told the story about one parent, one mother, who was getting this prescription, and the doctor then later recounted to Mrs. Bush, that the mother leaned over to him and she said, I can't read. And so that became a powerful, pivotal moment for introducing early reading to children and then also finding clinics to have the mothers learn how to read so they could help their children develop. So she had invited Senator Kennedy to that symposium and he was so impressed that he invited Mrs. Bush to come brief his committee on 9-11

about the program and the findings and all of the good work that had been done. And coincidentally, Senator Clinton was on that committee. So it was going to be the first time that Senator Clinton and Mrs. Bush were going to be together since inauguration day. And so when we were waiting for departure from the White House, I was out, you know, when you see the South Lawn where the helicopter lands at the White House and there's that awning and they go into that room, that's called the Diplomatic Reception Room, also known as the Dip Room.

And so I was waiting out there. And one of the reporters who was coming to the motorcade said to me, a helicopter just crashed into the World Trade Tower, your boss is going to have some competition for news today. And I thought, well, that's weird, because it was so spectacularly clear in DC. It had to have been that way in New York. And I walked inside, talked to the Secret Service agent who

was the lead, and we looked at the television images there in their office, and he said, that's not a helicopter. And then Mrs. Bush came down from the elevator, and he told her what had happened, and her first reaction was, oh, no, Hillary's going to have to leave to go back to be with her constituents. We were so innocent. No, no, no impression that anything beyond that was happening. By the time we got to the hill, maybe 10 minutes later, the second plane had hit the second

tower. And I'll always remember Mrs. Bush, I think I'm sure has recounted this, that Senator Kennedy was waiting for her outside to greet her and escort her into his office. And they both were resolute that we were not going to cancel the hearing. It was going to be postponed, but we now had something else, obviously, to focus on. And in that moment was when it was obvious to Mrs. Bush and all of us that her new mantle was going to be comforter in Chief, doing

what she could to protect children and writing to parents and saying, don't let them watch the reruns, protect them. Everything that's being done to keep our nation safe is being done. And that really was what was happening the rest of the term. Tina, and then I want to turn this back over to Marilla Weiss. Well, that's a lot to follow.

And so on the, well back to the original question on the policy front, but then I want to pick up on sort of days not being what you think they're going to be, right? But you know, one of the things, Mrs. Obama said that echoes something Anita just said, is that her underlying principle was to all of us, there's only one person in this building that was elected. And it is his agenda that carries and whatever we are doing in any given day needs to advance the president's agenda or else why are we doing it? And so, you know, every all of our initiatives like Let's Move, let's use that as the example,

were rooted in policy. So it was all bound up together with what we were doing around pushing through the Affordable Care Act and health care reform. Let's Move is remembered for her doing jumping jacks on the lawn and the fruit and vegetable garden and getting all of you who are very young at, you know, you're changing your school meals.

Some of you won happily, so I know because you couldn't get your sugary, you know, snacks and drinks anymore. Yeah, there a little protest. You guys are probably younger than that than the teenagers at the time who were protesting us. But it was also wound up in policy. So we worked hand in glove with the Domestic Policy Council. There's actually a childhood, it was all rooted around

reducing the curve on childhood obesity, which was on a hockey stick up in this country. And which we actually did, we started to sort of turn that curve around by the end of the term, but on policy changes like food labeling and the childhood nutrition bill, which she pushed through. It's the one piece of legislation she got very active in pushing through on the Hill

to reform school lunches. We did a lot of work with the military on improving health for military recruits and folks on base. And so all of our stuff, even the joining forces that we did with the military, was done hand in glove with a National Security Council-led multi-departmental task force on what everybody in the federal government could do to support military families.

And each department came forward with different proposals. And then we saw our role as then lifting those up. So for example, the treasury department came up with an initiative to really change the licensing requirements for military spouses. Because if you're a trailing military spouse, and let's say you were a teacher or a real estate agent or a lawyer,

you'd have to get relicensed every time you moved from state to state to state. And so, you know, we crafted, there was a piece of model legislation crafted. And we wound up finally, after New York was the last, surprisingly, we got all 50 states to sign military spouse licensing transferring. And those are the kinds of things we were able to lift up. But the thing about the White House,

to go back to 9-11, is you can plan these things, and you can plan your days. And the East Wing's a little less subject to it than the West Wing is, where the president's office is. But any given day, the world events, we are a government that sits at the center of everything that's happening, not only in the country, but globally, can just completely alter everything that happened. And for us, the day was the Sandy Hook Day.

It was Christmas time. We had just come back from doing our annual Christmas visit to the National Children's Hospital. We were doing an event in the South Court Auditorium. I learned about it on the way back from the hospital going into this public press event and decided not to tell Mrs. Obama until after she had made her public press appearance, right, on what had happened. But while we were doing that, I get the message from the president's personal assistant that

he wanted to see her. He had never asked. In eight years, it is the only time during the middle of the day that the president asked for Mrs. Obama to come by the office. And that's because, and he has written about this, I can barely say it without getting emotional, he had seen all the photos from that morning and been fully briefed on it. And remember, their kids were very young and you may remember him coming out to the press room that day and barely able to speak himself about what happened.

And so I had to tell her at the end of this press event, and then we changed our route for how we were going to go back to the East Wing, so that we went by the Oval, so that the two of them could be together in that moment. And then he had him so that he could then be prepared for what he had to do with the rest of the day, which was to both speak to the the press speak to the families go to Sandy Hook a couple days later

It's hard, you know, the job the job is hard. It's hard on the entire family. That's there. Yeah, it's a good story So you why don't you do this next question some including Max boot in his new biography of Ronald Reagan? I haven't read it yet because my husband hasn't shared it yet. Oh, I haven't read it yet. I'll be taking that tonight. Said that Ronald Reagan, if he hadn't been married to Nancy Reagan, wouldn't have become President Reagan. Now, before I get an answer on this,

I want to point out the fact that Nancy Reagan was as strong in collecting rich people as anybody you've ever met. She had that coterie around her. She had Betsy Bloomingdale and Bunny Rather, and she had one... The Wings, the Tuttles. Oh, the Tuttles. Oh, she loved the Tuttles. And these were people who could write huge checks

and support Reagan among the business community, but could also be kind of like a Star Wars shield around her, wherever she went. Remember the thing in front of the Death Star? You couldn't get near Mrs. Reagan. Now, I was a reporter, and I would cover it when she would come back to town. I was occasionally in Washington. I'm gonna tell my story.

Okay, so here's my story. And this is a story about that I couldn't figure it out till 15 years after it happened. I was sitting in my kitchen in Washington, where we then lived, with Susan Spencer from CBS. And we were talking about Nancy being put in a box as soon as she was elect box as soon as she was elected, as soon as he was elected first lady.

You can't believe the place was rife with rumors, you know, that China, the this, the that, David Jones's flowers, all this stuff. And we came down to a very specific story. Mrs. Bush had arrived at the congressional wives party for the two of them, right? That Barbara Bush one. And when she walked in, this is how the story went, Nancy turned to her friends and said, oh, for God's sake, can't she clean up her act?

Look at what she looks like. Now that story spread and it really marked Nancy's thing. Why is that not a true story? You have Susan and my benefit on this. First, the women surrounding Nancy Reagan took a pledge of a murder. They could be put on a cross and they wouldn't say one word. They knew nothing. They knew absolutely they didn't know their name half the time.

That's the first thing. The second thing is who really knew how Washington worked and how this would be a disastrous story to get around, which it did in a day. That would be the Foxy grandma, Barbara Bush. Third, who did really get hurt by this story? Nancy Reagan really got hurt by this story. So with that in mind, understand as I sit here that I'm like a historian and they're like current affairs. This was a whole different ball game with wives who were trained to be wives.

That was the deal. Then we have activist women coming in and saying, well, my career was teaching children. My career was being a lawyer. My career was this and that. And so it's a whole different ballgame. That's why you have to read the book. It's really good. So how helpful are current, the current crop of wives in getting their husbands elected? Well, I should have to say something. Or I could say maybe spouses. Politics is a family affair.

No doubt about it. If the candidate decides they're going to run, the family's all in. Whether they want it or not, I mean, famously, remember, Barbara and Jenna Bush told their father when he said he was going to run for president, you're ruining our lives. He said, your mother and I, you're ruining our lives. He said, we, your mother and I raised you to lead your life. We will lead our, our life. And so to your point, it is a family affair. Everyone's all in. I would like to say, and I'll,

I'll let my colleagues up here respond to that as well. But I do want to say something about the Reagan example. Ronald Reagan always said his life started with Nancy Reagan. So the fact that it is no surprise that she was so influential to all of the public roles that he took on running for governor, that group of donors was way back to the gubernatorial days. It didn't start with the presidential day. She saw in him something great and she spent her entire married life trying to prop that up.

The story about Barbara Bush and Nancy Reagan, it was a very complicated relationship between those two women. I think Mrs. Reagan looked at Barbara Bush. It had a lot of the things that Mrs. Reagan didn't have. A loving family life, you know, children who and grandchildren that were around them all the time. That wasn't the Reagan's experience. I think too Mrs. Reagan, don't forget, George H.W. Bush ran against Ronald Reagan for the nomination

in 1980. It was the voodoo economics comment. Nancy Reagan never really got over those things. And so never completely embraced or trusted is maybe too strong of a word, but I think you get my point. Where that didn't translate though is the relationship between Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush was a wonderful relationship. And President Bush adored President Reagan.

And I know that was mutual. But again, the wives have an impact on the impression that people have about what goes on in the White House, the relationships between the president, the vice president, it does, yes, they're trained to be wives and they don't want to be the distraction in the story, but sometimes it happens. I can't remember ever covering, and I didn't cover it constantly, Mrs. Barbara Bush and seeing her surrounded by a group of friends. Friends from years and years and years and decades. Years and decades.

Decades. Yes, exactly. But it was not that same kind of a phalanx coming into the ballroom, you know? No. Well, I can say for getting elected, so Mrs. Obama, unlike Nancy Reagan, was not necessarily keen on all the various, you know, yes, dragged in was the right word. As President Obama kept moving up and up and especially, you know, well reported on, you know, her reluctance during the, you know, the decision to run for president. But once he decided, and once they had a pathway to try to do it, she was, of course, all in. And it's sort of hard to remember now,

because they're both sort of very iconic. But back in 2007, he was Mr. Longshot. I mean, black guy, funny name, running against Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden. Joe Biden, Joe Biden. There was a whole long list of people in the Democratic primary. You remember it well.

Right? And going to Iowa. Iowa was the first caucus state. And that was the key. Had we not won Iowa, it's not entirely sure that that would have happened. The guy was used as the proving ground, that yes, a guy named Barack Obama, was used as the proving ground that yes,

a guy named Barack Obama, we know from the South Side of Chicago could get elected. If you could get elected in a place like Iowa, then that was a proving point, even to actually black voters who did not think. Up till then, black voters had preferred Hillary Clinton to Barack Obama because they thought he could not win. Right, right. Clinton to Barack Obama because they thought he could not win. Right.

Right. And part of that appeal to folks in Iowa was Michelle Obama. Because remember, Barack Obama has his very exotic childhood. He's raised in Indonesia. He has this complicated family. His father abandons them. And he's got this incredible mother, but she's all over the world,

leaves the son with the grandparents in Hawaii, like grows up in Hawaii. This is a movie. Right, right. There have been some. But it was Michelle Obama's story, right? That is rooted in a common middle-class, working-class experience, right? Nuclear family living in a common middle class, working class experience, right?

Nuclear family living in a home above her aunt on the south side of Chicago with that family around her raised in, you know, in that neighborhood, going to the neighborhood schools, father working on a water plant, you know, mom working, you know, you know, as a secretary and then staying home. You know, that story and then when she told it in backyards in Iowa, that resonated. And I would submit without that story, right, to root Barack Obama in a common experience that was more relatable than what his own personal story would have been was a huge part of how we went Iowa, how we come close to New Hampshire, how the cascade then starts to happen. And look, this is the thing about my boss is that when she's in, then she goes all in.

And you can tell from the convention speeches, right? She has now become this iconic speaker and, and leader and messenger on these things. But it took a while to get there. But I would say that, that became really the first story, because I was right there in those early days, and her ability to relate to people with a common background, despite the fact that we might be ethnically different, you know, look different, but that relatability that she had, he's the thinker, she's the emoter. That was the difference

in the two convention speeches a month ago, right? She's the emoter and that connection was really key to him becoming president of the United States. You know, one thing we didn't mention about Nancy Reagan when we were talking about it was she had, we now know, a decided influence on public policy. Absolutely. She was very antagonistic, quietly and effectively so, toward the people in the administration who were hardest line and really wanted confrontation with the Soviets. In the end, she was the one who pushed her husband to finally, finally, took him a long time, do something about the AIDS crisis. Did you could comment on that or talk about

the first ladies that you worked with and what impact they had on some of these major public policy events, or did they just stay out of it? Well, a couple of things, we touched a little bit on No Child Left Behind and Mrs. Bush's supporting role in that, and I hate to use those words, but in essence, that's what it became. But also, PEPFAR was, that's the one,

I mean, it just marked its what, 20-something anniversary. Tell them about PEPFAR was that's the one. I mean, I just marked it's what 20 something anniversary. Tell them about PEPFAR. Yeah. And AIDS research and support in Africa. And it's arguably saved tens of millions of lives. Absolutely. Let's have your presentation. 25 million lives.

25 million people in the last 20 years have been saved because of that work. And Mrs. Bush was very key with that, because I remember being on a trip with them. You went on the first trip in 2008. I went on the first trip. And I also remember, you mentioned the twins. Barbara was with us.

Barbara, the daughter, was with us on that trip. And I could literally, I remember standing next to her, I could literally see the light bulb going off above her head that she was going to be doing something related to the health corps because of what she had seen in Africa. So you talk about legacy work. It's the work that we've done internationally, or they've done internationally, and they continue to do.

They're continually involved, and so are so many others. And that's part of their legacy. And I really, if you don't know much about it, go do some research and show it, because it'll make you feel better as an American. It'll make you feel even more proud that it's not just about us, it's about the global community. And that started over 20 years ago.

But I wanted to mention another thing where it's not so much policy, but after 9-11 when Osama bin Laden was on the run and President Bush, in his inimitable Texas way, said something like, we're going to get them dead or alive, or something like that. And Mrs. Bush said to him, you're going to get them bushy, basically saying, maybe let's tone it down a little bit,

because right now we really need to focus on how to take care of the country while you're doing your work. And then aside on that, Mrs. Bush was the first first lady to ever be interviewed on 60 Minutes and she did it in the aftermath of 9-11. Not an easy decision because those of us, and you know better than I do, Otsie, all of us, that when 60 Minutes calls and you're the press secretary, you want to run the other way because it's not

going to be a fun experience. But I knew that this was going to be, if there was ever a moment, this was the moment. And so she did the appearance. And Leslie Stahl literally came down because there are still no planes. She came down by train from New York to do the interview at the White House.

And President Bush was not very happy about it ahead of time. And in the briefing in the residence, I'll never forget, he was almost scolding me. Not that he ever did, but in the only way he interpreted it that way. What is she going to say if she gets asked this, that, and the other? And I was just standing there as solid as I could.

And Mrs. Bush was standing right next to me. And then she put her hand on my arm. And I said, well, Mr. President, this is what Mrs. Bush is going to say. And then I looked at her and I said, you are going to say that, aren't you, Mrs. Bush? It was such a sweet moment, but a serious moment. And that interview went over so well.

And it did so much to lay the groundwork for what we were doing. By that December, Barbara Walters named Laura Bush as the most fascinating person of 2001 because of her work. And that, though not policy, it affected the image and the branding of the White House at that moment in time. Anita, I interrupted you. You were going to say something.

Sure. No, no, no, no, but I think that's such a great example of how Laura Bush came into the White House with that first question, who are you going to be? Laura Bush or Barbara Bush? She was so underestimated and so typecast. And the thing is, Laura Bush, all the people I've ever met, she draws from her own inner reserves. She is solid.

She knows who she is. And she always has the right thing to say. It's remarkable for someone in public life like that, with the spotlight on you all the time, to not make a mistake. And it wasn't contrived. It was real. Comfortable in her own skin. And comfortable in her own skin.

She knows who she is. She knows who she is. She knows who they are as a family. It was a great example of somebody to work for. I know you feel the same way about who you work for. We're very lucky. But I have to go back now. What was the question?

I'm sorry. Was there a time she had a big impact on public policy? Oh, sure. Sure. The PEPFAR example, President's impact on public policy? Oh, sure. Sure. The PEPFAR example, President's Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief, absolutely. We did it the second term, went to 15 countries in Africa where primarily this initiative was being launched. And frankly, we couldn't do it without partners.

And the biggest partners were the faith-based community because they were the only trusted source to distribute all of these medicines. So she had a profound influence on that. I think, and I mentioned other on public policy, of course, Barbara Bush on literacy. I think going back in history, Lady Bird Johnson on the environment and conservation, this is our nation's first Conservationist first lady. She really cared about our natural landscape She wanted Americans to care about our natural landscape our country and to take care of it So, I mean throughout it, you know history first ladies have been involved in causes that they care about

Where it's it's more in modern times, where they really have been able to help influence actual legislation or public policy. And in that case, the highway beautification act was one that she was much very involved in. In fact, at the signing of it in the East room, President Johnson handed her the signing pen. So I want to add a footnote to someone we haven't mentioned. Hillary Rodham.

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Let's talk about healthcare. Bill and Hill since Yale. Oh, yes. I was actually there when a friend of mine took the famous picture where they both looked like unmade beds, you know, standing outside of the other thing. I was in one of the pictures.

I looked very cute because I was going home to see my mother. But she can be, in all truth, a little stringent. She can be a little cold. But then in 1998, 1997, 1998, she asked me to go with a group of women to Northern Ireland, where my grandmother came from for Vital Voices. I got there and three days later I was kidnapped and taken to Derry. They said, you're going to stay on, you're going to stay on. Bob was great.

His office ran this volunteer operation for seven years. We trained hundreds and hundreds of women in Northern Ireland to participate. Oh, I mean, I had everybody, anybody who ate dinner, we can move over with this. We'll give you a plane ticket. But the most amazing things that I learned about personalities was you put Hillary Clinton in a foreign country in front of women who really needed her. And she was a different person. All that kind of growing up Christian kind of stuff, right? It all came out.

She embraced these women and she lifted them up. And it was so shocking. The first time I saw it, I thought, who is this person? But she did it over and over again, all through Europe. She was great in all over the world, all over the world. It was quite a secretary of state. She was, yes. Yes.

She was, but she was so human. So it's an interesting thing. You have to ask yourself when you look at spouses, I'm being very careful to say that, of presidents, how much are they constrained by what the presidential spouse says to them and does to them and stuff like that? And I just thought I'd mention that. Yeah, no, it's important. I don't know that it's so much constrained by their spouse as the environment. I mean, you know, the environment, which we haven't really touched on is the environment you step into and the expectations of the role

are stifling, right? For any of these, these are all really strong-willed women and you know, we felt it. I mean the scrutiny, I mean Mrs. Obama in the early years, we remember as first lady, got criticized for wearing shorts coming off of Air Force One, for wearing too expensive of tennis shoes at one other event. For, you know, I mean, just things, and all of a sudden that level of scrutiny and criticism, if you tried to veer a little off the beaten path, it was hard. I mean, it's very hard to deal with personally. You know, it's hard to sort of manage and find your footing, especially as I think back to the first couple of years of being in the White House, you know, it took Mrs. Obama a while. Now, luckily, she had set wisely because she's smart. You know, there's also what she wanted to do that the first couple of years very much

were about, you know, it's Sasha and Malia getting these two young girls acclimated and in school, but it was also gave her breathing space, right? To sort of get that acclimation done. And it is, I see it when I watch her now, is that you see the sort of unconstrained Michelle Obama being able, she could never have given a speech like she gave at the convention this year as the sitting first lady, right?

And you know, there were a lot of times when we were with her editing, okay, say it to me now, because you're not gonna say it when you go out in front of the cameras, get it off your chest now, because there is that. And you are under this pressure, I will also say, that we felt is as much as we would do everything we could to enhance the president's agenda,

we never wanted to be the reason why the president was gonna have a bad day. I mean, the last thing you want to do is commit a mistake, a mistaken word here, you know, a something that I would have said or done that all of a sudden now the attention is off what the president wanted and needed to get done. And it's on some crazy thing that we did or didn't do. Right. And that level of pressure, both on the principals but on the staff is, the White House is unlike.

I used to tell people that came to work at the White House, there is no job. I don't care if you were CEO of a Fortune 50 company. There is no job in the world that prepares you for being a staffer in the White House because that level of scrutiny, you're living with the press. They're right there in the building with you. level of scrutiny, you're living with the press. They're right there in the building with you.

And it is the microscope and in a social media age, it is exponentially even greater. I'll just say high stakes, but if you have an opportunity, it is worth it. You'll never get better training in your life, but you're right. Stakes are always high and urgent always overtakes the important. We hear about violence all the time in the news, yet we rarely hear stories about peace. There are so many people who are working hard to promote solutions to violence, toxic polarization and authoritarianism, often at great personal risk.

We never hear about these stories, but at what cost? On Making Peace Visible, we speak with journalists, storytellers, and peace builders who are on the front lines of both peace and conflict. You can find Making Peace Visible wherever you listen to podcasts. Okay, let's turn this over to audience questions. I promised I would do that. Just raise your hands and someone will bring you a microphone. So I'll work backwards

from the very last thing that was said. Ms. Chen, you and several of the others have said that First Ladies frequently ran things by you before things would be said publicly. To any of you, have any of you heard the First Lady say, I plan to say this, and then you went like, eh, eh, eh, you know? And looking back at it later, years later,

would you have let her say that thing that you perhaps blocked her from saying at that time? Who wants to do this first? Yeah. I didn't have that. I can't think of an example. In my case, and probably also in Tina's case, and yours with your Mrs. First Barbara Bush,

and then also with Nancy Reagan, what happens is if they're going to do an interview or give a speech somewhere, you have a briefing session with them. It might be just a few minutes, but it's to go over the event, what the remarks are, the intention of the remarks, the messaging, and all of that. I found that she would make the messaging better. She would add something.

And mostly it would be from her own personal perspective, which I was new to the show because I had not worked on the campaign. And I didn't have the benefit of knowing the Bushes before I went to work at the White House. And so it wasn't something that I would have known to have put into a message or a speech or a press statement.

So she would make it better. But there'd be also times where the event itself would dictate. Something would happen at the event. So you had to have some kind of flexibility all the time, because you had to respond to what was going on in the moment. And so she was very good about that, very intuitive, very aware, very empathetic to what was happening, especially during moments like this during Q&A.

So I don't think I ever had that experience. If I did, I blocked it out, but I'm pretty sure I didn't have it. I can't speak the same for the web. I know I did, but I blocked't have it. I can't speak the same for the West. I know I did. I blocked out the specifics. Because it's not the case that she would sometimes run past something she was going to say publicly passed. They ran everything past. I mean, really, you're in a position

where both the president and the first lady really rarely would be off the cuff. The president a little bit more, because maybe they gaggle on the plane or something. We didn't gaggle, right? Meaning there were no off the cuff, just go back into the plane and talk to the reporter kind of thing. So everything's pretty planned ahead of time so that you know. And so that's why I say I know that in those working through things, like I said, there

were moments where something would have really, she'd have a strong reaction to it. Let's sort of react this way. I mean, we're in political season, so I guess I can talk about this. I mean, one speech I remember well, which was not that I was telling her not to say something, it was actually, she was leaving even farther than I was prepared to go, was she gave a very famous speech

on the campaign in 2016, after the Access Hollywood tape came out. And if you go back and you Google that, New Hampshire, it was, I can remember it was in New Hampshire a couple of days after that tape. And she came down, we had a standard stump speech and she was scheduled to give that same stump speech for Secretary Clinton. And she said, we're changing the whole thing because I got it. I can't-

She couldn't ignore it. I cannot not say something. And this is the one where she said, I was shaken to my core by this, and then proceeded to go through. And she was introduced by Senator Annie Custer, who from New Hampshire, who said, revealed that she was a survivor herself

of sexual assault in that moment. And that's the one where is most vivid for me of a complete, you know, reshift at the last minute of something she really wanted to say. Now look, the other differences we weren't the candidate anymore. I'm not sure she has if we were the candidate, she would have given that speech. We were no longer the candidate. We were the former at sexually a speech. I think I do not think that Secretary Clinton could have given, which is why Michelle Obama as the, you know, sitting incumbent, not running

for reelection. Sure. Campaign surrogate essentially at that point. One quick thing, I will just say Barbara Bush. Barbara Bush's actually direction to her press secretary always was, because Barbara Bush didn't hold back on what she had to say. She said, if I said it, I said it. You don't have to explain away. Now she worried that some things that she said would embarrass her husband or hurt him, but she was, you know, a person who didn't mince words and she owned it. Is everyone here registered to vote? Yes. That's good. I just want to tell you what we learned growing up in Fudoff.

Vote early and often. This is great. Thank you for being a great panel and sharing so many stories. I have a question, and my name is Bridget. I have a question about sense of humor and how has that played for yourselves as journalists and working and also with the first ladies? How did that work? Because you guys are giggling quite a bit.

You do have to have a sense of humor and you do have to have to laugh. I always felt I was just too serious. I always worried for the shoe was going to drop on the other foot. You just didn't want to make mistakes, as Tina said. But I found in some moments, Noelle, you probably have this experience with Mrs. Bush, she could be very funny. And so people didn't really know that about her and would really help cut the tension off.

President Obama and Mrs. Obama are both really funny. I mean, they're funny. They like to do jokes on each other. There would be, you know, many moments. So, and you have to, I mean, because it's so high stress. I mean, I do think that's what allows people to do jokes on each other. There would be many moments. And you have to. Because it's so high stress, I do think that's what allows people to do the job and stay with it and keep running for offices in that high stress position. The most successful folks, I think, are the ones who have that sense of humor. I will say, so laughing.

I don't know that I've done it here in as much as I can. But I do laugh. I laugh a lot. I laugh very loudly. And it became the thing that I was known for. The president used to, we were one time on Air Force One, we're all traveling, we stop for a fuel stop. I'm sitting in the personal side, which with Mrs. Obama during the fuel stop,

and we're laughing about something. It shares a wall with the office, Air Force One for the president. The president comes around the corner and says, Tina, you have to stop. We're doing foreign leader calls here. And all we can do is hear you laughing through the wall. And I said to him, I said that a couple of years later,

when he gave me another hard time, but I said, I have worked here eight years. And the only thing you will have remembered about what I did is that I was a loud laugher. Someone else? I have a funny story, actually. We were in Italy in, I think it was in 2001. And when you travel, you have somebody from the medical department with you. We had a nurse, somebody from the military, and they always travel with you just in case anything happens, of course, in the First Lady. But if something happens to the staff, they're there as well. And I had maybe TMI, but I had gone in to take a shower in the hotel room.

And when I went into the tub, I slipped and I hit my head. So I called, I was able to call the robin, the med aid. And she comes in and tests me and checks me out and everything's fine. I think that's the end of that story. The next day, we're in the limo, I'm with Mrs. Bush and we're driving to one of the sites. And Mrs. Bush says to me,

I heard that you had a fall last night. I was so embarrassed because she knew I'd fallen in the bathtub and I had not told her. They know all these things, even if we didn't tell them. The Secret Service tells them everything. And I said, oh my god, but I finally was able to get ahold of the med to come in and check me. And she says, well, you know, there's

a little rope in the bathtub that you could have pulled that. It's an emergency call for an emergency. And I said, I didn't know that. And she said, yeah, but with your luck, you'd probably have five Italian men show up. And I said, all I have to do to get five Italian men to show up in my room is pull a rope, string in the bathtub, and then she says, driver, turn this car around. She's going back to the bathroom. Anyone over there? Great story. Yes. So I skimmed this headline on the way to work this morning.

I'm not sure if news has changed in the past couple hours, but I was reading about Melania's very public choice to like have an opposite opinion of her husband on like the point of his campaign in her upcoming memoir. And I was curious if there's a precedent for that and is it as seismic as it's being made out to be? I'll just say this. She's not the first first lady to have a difference of opinion with her husband. Now this is a campaign season.

You have to imagine this is going to make news and I've read some reports too. Is this an attempt to try and court voters or women voters? I don't know, my personal feeling is too late for that. I think that people have, they know where he stands on this issue. She's not the elected leader. She's not going to move the needle on that issue with him. So it is the timing of the memoir, the way it's being rolled out, is all fascinating to watch. This would not be the time for a candidate's spouse memoir

to come out. Absolutely. A year and a half ago would have been, probably vetted as part of the rollout. In the last month, the campaign is weird, actually. But she has consistently, I will say, always gone her own way. So there's no difference. Yeah.

That jacket. I believe, by the way, that several of the First Ladies whose husbands as president strongly opposed reproductive rights actually disagreed with them pretty strongly, but they didn't say it. Yeah. Betty Ford, Pat Nixon, they all did behind this thing these things Barbara Bush, I don't know Mrs. Bush said different feelings on this but again the team made a point earlier who's the elected leader

here what what are the policies and positions that they are promoting? First lady spouses are there to support that even if they may not agree with it. Okay, we have time for one more question or two. We'll do two. We'll be fair. Thank you so much for speaking with us. I just wanted to know, for each of you in working with your respective principles, was there ever a moment where you thought to yourself, wow, I'm so glad that I'm working for this First Lady? What a great question. Yeah.

Well, for me, it was every day. Walking into the White House, no matter who your first lady is, you feel a great sense of pride and gratitude. So I felt it every day. And then just a little side story, that first year right after 9-11, I forgot to mention earlier, the weekend before, the Saturday before, Mrs. Bush hosted the first ever national

book festival on the mall in Washington. And it sustained years later. Little did we know that four days later, we would be united as a nation in a different way. That was also part of her legacy. But that Thanksgiving, because the world had changed, tours, no tours at the White House, everything as we knew it, was different.

My mom, I was in DC. I lived alone and didn't have any family around. My mom came out to spend Thanksgiving with me. And the day before Thanksgiving, I had her come to the White House to do the tour, and she was in heaven. But of course, I had told Mrs. Bush that she was coming. And she and the president came in

to greet her in the diplomatic reception room. They had, they had, in the Rose Garden, they'd had a photo shoot on the cover of Newsweek magazine. And so I knew they were gonna come in from that cross hall, and so I had my mom's back to the door, a surprise for my mom, and then here comes the president. He's all looking all over, where is she, where is she, because he was just so focused on my mother. And he puts his arm around her, and he says, hi, Grace. And my mom looks at him, and she says, oh my god,

you're so much better looking in person. And he said, no shame, it's the makeup. And they invited us to Camp David the next day for Thanksgiving. So I'm golden in my mom's heart forever and ever. OK. OK. Hi, I just wanted to say, first of all,

I've gotten so much out of listening to all of you talk about your experiences in the past. I have a bit of a more historical question. This story goes back to the conversation on Reagan. But if any of you have ever seen the movie that just came out about Reagan, do you think that like that- The Quaid one?

Yeah, the Dennis Quaid. Obviously, if anyone else has, do you think that they did a good job of portraying Nancy Reagan? And also, if you've ever, because I know that Reagan used to be married to Jane Wyman, if she had to, you know, stay his spouse and become first lady,

how do you think she would have been viewed? I think she would have been. Yeah. Yeah. She thought he was spending too much time on all the political stuff when, you know, she was building a career as, as an actress or an actor, as they say it now. I haven't seen the movie, so I can't comment. I don't know if anyone did. I will say one thing. There is one fantastic book about Nancy Reagan that came out two years ago written by Karen

Tumulty at the Washington Post who wrote, took her four years to research this. She never met Nancy Reagan. She never wrote a book before. It's called The Triumph of Nancy Reagan. It is an outstanding piece of work about Nancy Reagan and her life and even people who knew Mrs. Reagan for decades learned things in that book that they never knew. So I want to thank this extraordinary panel, Tina, Anita, and Noelia, the first ladies of our program today. Thank you. And I want to thank my First Lady, Otzi, and all of you for joining us in person on Zoom or Facebook or later on YouTube or our podcast.

You're invited to be with us again on October 23rd for our panel on Election 2024, Where Are We Now? And a week later, we'll do a panel on election 2024, where are we now? And a week later, we'll do a panel on the home stretch. Thanks again, have a great weekend. And remember, if you go out that door, you can get a signed copy of Anita's book. Thank you all very much.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for joining us on the Bully Pulpit. It helps us a lot when you subscribe and rate the show five stars wherever you get your podcasts. Follow us on Twitter at USCPOLFuture.

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