Let's Find Common Ground - Public Schools: Talking Across the Divide. Becky Pringle and Gisele Huff

Episode Date: June 20, 2024

Almost everyone has an opinion about public education, especially in the years since the COVID pandemic when the physical closure of schools and online schooling became highly controversial. The vast majority of American students attend public school, but the numbers are falling, partially because of growing financial support for school choice and the changing views of many parents. According to a Gallup poll last year, nearly two-thirds of Americans were dissatisfied with the quality of education students receive in kindergarten through 12th grade. In this podcast episode, we bring together two respected education leaders with different views about public schooling. Becky Pringle was a middle school science teacher for three decades, and is now President of the NEA - The National Education Association, the nation’s largest teachers union. Gisele Huff is a philanthropist, expert on education reform, and a longtime supporter of school choice and charter schools.

The vast majority of American students attend public schools. But the numbers are falling, partially because of growing financial support for school choice and the changing views of parents. According to a Gallup poll last year, nearly two-thirds of Americans were dissatisfied with the quality of education students receive in kindergarten through 12th grade. In more than half of states, parents can now use public money to educate their kids with private school vouchers, homeschooling, or other alternatives.

In this episode, we hear from two education leaders with different views about public schooling. One supports charter schools and vouchers. The other is a teacher's union leader. How they learn to work together is a fascinating story. Why did I do that? Why did I become who I am today? Because I cared about kids and I wanted to answer that calling for me. And when I became a union heart and that passion for kids. I found you so much of a person that I was able to relate my thoughts

about what we were grappling with to the kind of respect I had for you as a person. And I think that's the thing that we're so lacking these days, that no one respects each other. This is Let's Find Common Ground. I'm Ashley Montite. And I'm Richard Davies. Giselle Hough is a philanthropist and long-time supporter of School Choice and charter schools. Becky Pringle has spent her career in public education. A science teacher for three decades, today she's president of the NEA, the National

Education Association, the nation's largest teachers union. Becky and Giselle first met several years ago before COVID through Convergence Center for Policy Resolution. Convergence brought them together with other education leaders to agree on a vision to transform education for America's children. Convergence encouraged them to leave their entrenched mindsets at the door. Giselle is a Holocaust survivor who emigrated to the US as a child and got a shot at the American dream. Becky wants every student, regardless of background, to be able to do the same. We spoke with both

of them in 2021. I started by asking Becky about how she got interested in teaching and education. Becky I always wanted to be a teacher, always. From the time I forced my two sisters to play school on the front steps of my North Philly home, I just had this calling to teach. And against my father's wishes, he did not want me to become a teacher. He had already seen the diminishment

of respect for teachers. Certainly I was never gonna make a lot of money as a teacher, but most especially my dad, stall for me, a black woman following in the footsteps of so many before me, because it was the most traditional of careers for a woman and for a Black woman. My dad had fought a long, hard battle for me to be able to major in science. And when I told him I wanted to become a teacher, he was really disappointed in me. But a teacher I became, and I'll never forget when I got elected as an officer of the NEA back in 2008.

My dad came up, he was at the convention and he said, Rebecca, I was wrong. You're now in a position to have impact far beyond the confines of your classroom. Giselle, tell us about your background. So I was the executive director of the Small Family Foundation in San Francisco for 22 years and started my career, the first half of it, looking at school choice as a solution to the problems with education in this country. to the problems with education in this country. And very much among those ideas were vouchers and charter schools and all of the choice ways of looking at making education more effective for our children. So it was a reform movement and reform movement and we were supporting all of the organizations that were fighting these fights in the states.

And in the context of that, it was very much anti-union. And I'm saying this here because we're sitting in the room virtually with the head of the NEA, which is the biggest teachers union in the country. So that was the beginning of my career, the first half. And then in the middle of it, I became interested in the introduction of technology as an integral part of the curriculum in an industry that is a very large industry, $700 billion a year, that was ignoring the power of technology as a tool. And that's the place I was in when I was approached to participate

in the experience that Becky and I shared. So Becky, when you first met Giselle, just how different did your views feel from each other? Can you give us a sense of that? Well, I think she did that in her introduction, so really different. So what she didn't get into as much is the whole technology piece. And so certainly as an educator, I wasn't against technology, but given her background with vouchers and charters, and by the way, this will be an interesting story to tell too around charters, because Giselle and I talked about that. It was one of the ways we were kind of going at it, which tried to bridge a little bit,

because I reminded her that, you know, unions started charters. We were trying to figure out a way to innovate from within. And so we started that and then it got away from us. And from our perspective became this industry that really became more about destroying public education than innovating from outside and informing the system. But nonetheless, when I heard technology, all I could think about was the billions of dollars in technology and

another effort to supplant educators to diminish us in education and our role in that. And so it became another flashpoint for us. And we didn't certainly, I didn't speak for myself, didn't necessarily embrace it from the place of how we could actually get at some of the challenges and issues that we're having in reaching every single student, right? But I thought about it as another challenge versus an opportunity. And so for me, when I thought about technology becoming so widespread in our system, I worried deeply about the inequities in the system and not addressing those before it became so widespread

that those gaps of inequity grew and grew and grew for those kids that had been marginalized forever. Giselle, Becky said you went at it. In what ways? Well, actually, I don't recall the experience quite in the same way because the whole concept behind the convergence meeting was from the first day that we started working on this, leave all your ideas behind. You are not a representative of charter schools.

You are not a superintendent of a district. You are not the leader of the NEA. You are not a conservative thinker from an institute. You are looking at this from the future and trying to establish what ought to be. So get rid of your luggage. Don't think about the things you're bringing into the room. For me, that was the most exciting part of the experience because it took a lot to let go.

And from my point of view, our relationship, Becky, developed the way it did because we let go. And from my point of view, our relationship, Becky, developed the way it did because we let go, because we were able to see each other as people and the authenticity of our passion, even though they were not the same passions, was enough to bring us together, despite the distance between our ideologies. That's what I recall most of all.

I mean, I found you so much of a person that I was able to relate my thoughts about what we were grappling with to the kind of respect I have for you as a person. And I think that's the thing that we're so lacking these days, that no one respects each other. If you don't give people credit for being a human being and for listening to how they present themselves and what their beliefs are in a genuine way, you can't get anywhere. So I could not agree more to Zell. And when I use that phrase, we went at it,

I say it out of love for sure. Because here was this strong, powerful woman. And so when I say it that way, it's certainly out of respect for sure, Here was this strong, powerful woman. And so when I say it that way, it's certainly out of respect for sure, but it was a challenge for me, right? To be able to show myself and to let go, to let come. But also what I loved about it, you know, it's me, I'm North Philly, born and bred, fight.

You know, I'll never forget going to Pitt and the guys on the campus saying, you must be from Philly because you just have an attitude and you're not even approachable. That's right. Cause I'm a come at you if you even think. But I saw that feistiness in you that I so connected with. Becky, you're sounding very positive, but you said you had an attitude going in. So were you surprised by what happened coming out? I was. I mean, because here's the reality.

Giselle's right. I mean, we all had to show up from our lenses, our experiences and all that and try to let that go. You know, I did feel like the union, more than any group individually, was under attack. And so, you know, when you're under attack, you kind of show up in that way. But honestly, I approached the work from a place of having that to some degree. But also, to Giselle's point, I wanted to show up as that 10-year-old teacher on the steps of North Philly. Why did I do that? Why did I become who I am today? Because I cared about kids and I wanted to answer that calling for me. And when I became a union leader, that didn't change. And I needed, I wanted them to see that heart and that passion for kids, for all kids.

And that I had a responsibility as an educator and as a unionist and as a racial and social justice activist, I had a responsibility to show up in this space and do my best, certainly, to invite the best from others. Could you give us a bit of context about the circumstances in which you met? Just tell listeners this convergence process, what is it? And did you come in skeptical? I'm just,

I'd love to hear a bit more about how it works. I was very sceptical. I'm not a committee person. I've always been one woman office and I'm very independent and I don't believe in committees. I get very upset when long meetings go on and nothing happens, just a lot of lip-flapping. And because of the fact that I was a big proponent of technology and I was one of the few people

in the foundation world that was talking about that, they asked me to join. And I thought, I'm going to do this because I don't believe anything will come of it. I wanna make sure that what I think is important is represented at the table. Let me just have a seat at the table and nevermind, you know, how little people care about technology or don't understand it or have different ideas.

I'm going to be there to speak about it. Just as you, Becky, were saying, you know, that the unions were being put upon and you wanted to be there to represent the children and what you care about. And Becky, what's your view of the convergence process? Yeah, I could not agree more. You know, I was very highly skeptical. But we're going to talk about education, then we need to be there. But I believe that the facilitators, they took the time to understand who we were. I know they were very thoughtful about who they wanted to have at the table. They took care to talk to us in between to continue to coax us to stay.

And then they actually created a space for us to not only let go and come, but also to have ownership. And so one of the things that we did towards the end and continued after was, okay, now you have this beautiful aspirational vision. What is your responsibility from where you are? What is your responsibility? And what that caused us at the NEA was to really dig into that vision. And that was exciting too. So it became, it wasn't just about talking and it wasn't just about articulating a vision, but about seeing ourselves in it and what our responsibility was

to make it so. You're listening to Becky Pringle and Giselle Hough on Let's Find Common Ground. I'm Ashley. And I'm Richard. Let's Find Common Ground is the production of Common Ground Committee, which is a vital part of the bridging movement, a community of groups that work together across the country to push back against polarization. On Let's Find Common Ground, we tell stories about people with different backgrounds, identities and viewpoints who come together and work with respect alongside those they may strongly disagree with. The last podcast episode we released before this one was about abortion and how leaders on opposite sides of the fierce debate, pro-life and pro-choice, met together for years.

Find that episode and all our shows at commongroundcommittee.org. We recorded this interview after the worst months of the COVID epidemic, a time when almost all of us had either online business meetings, family gatherings or both. Ayal Shazel about what it was like to have online discussions instead of meeting face to face as she did with Becky. There's no comparison. There's no comparison. There were five get-togethers that I attended, and they were for two and a half days each. So just like Congress in the old days when they used to go out and have a drink, you know, at the end of a session. We had dinners together, we had breakfast, we went to places and talked to each

other. I mean, it was a completely different experience. And that, I think, is what I can say without any question that it was like night and day. So the online experience just couldn't bring that same closeness? There was no way that I could establish a relationship with anybody as I did with Becky during that period. No way. I mean, virtually just as it's not. First of all, they were much shorter. We were, you know, you can't keep people in front of a computer for more than four hours. We were together for two and a half days.

Giselle and I had this seminal moment, right? That could never have happened through technology. When I asked her to step outside the room and just talk to me, you can't do that. I mean, you got breakout rooms, but you kind of have to organize those ahead of me. You can't do that, virtual set. I mean, you got breakout rooms, but you kind of have to organize those ahead of time. You can't just reach into the box and say, could you step outside with me? Those moments where you have the opportunity just to connect one-on-one,

there's just nothing like breaking bread together to Giselle's point. This is nothing like it because you just start talking about your family. I learned more about, she had shared that in the group, but I learned more about her history. We both suffered a tragic loss, her of her son and me of my husband.

And just talking about that over dinner, there's nothing like looking in somebody's eyes. Make me cry. There's nothing like looking in somebody's eyes. Make me cry. There's nothing like that. Just nothing like that. Looking into somebody's eyes. And when you do that, you see their humanity. And that is what allows you to connect to that larger human experience and vision that we all want, right, for our kids, that we all want for our families, that we all want for this country. Now hugging is the thing I miss the most during the year and some months that we were separated from each other. That hug, that ability to just take somebody in your arms or be taken in someone's arms, it's like, it's humanity, you know?

I mean, it makes you feel like you're part of something bigger than yourself. There you go. When Becky thinks back to their group meetings with Convergence and the vision they all came up with for the future of education. She's proud. One of the things I loved about it, Giselle, was the ending where it talks about, well, all of it, but, you know, talks about students being constructive members of the communities, understanding that, you know, they need to feel their full potential as empowered individuals. So it talks about them, you know, so that each child,

their rich diversity and brilliance, but it also talks about them as part of a community. And it also talks about them being engaged citizens of the United States and the world. What are some other concepts that you came up with as a result of this convergence process. So the concept of thinking people together and getting them to drop their prejudices and moving forward on ideas that speak to the future is what's missing from the human experience. I mean, the whole idea that you look at problems holistically and you think about what would be the best thing

if there were no restraints whatsoever and I was asked to create the best society. What would it look like? Really, the focus was giving the children agency. That was of all the things that we talk about many, many things, but understanding that you have to empower their children to participate in their learning experience in a way that they were in charge of it as they progressed, giving them the tools to be able to do that.

Our podcast is called Let's Find Common Ground. Any advice from both of you to others on how to find common ground and what common ground means to you? I think where Giseelle started and that is you have to pick yourself up out of the current reality. You know, current reality will always pull you back to what you know and what you or think you know, and the way you've always done things and you can't free your mind to imagine what's possible. And so when you're trying to find common ground, it is about that aspirational future and trying to stay in that space, even as you, you know, you got to move, you got

to take action to get there for sure, but you got to ground yourself in that common vision and never take your eye off of that. And for me it's everything you've said, Becky, and it encapsulates what we went through. But remember that we also said at the beginning, what is the purpose of education? So the famous why question, right? If you can agree that there's a why or there's something that you, for instance, let's say we agree that everybody loves their children. Everybody wants the best for their children. That's common ground. Everybody wants the best for their children. That's common ground. It's only when you talk about process that you get a lot of disagreement. But when you're talking about the whys, we're all human beings, as I said before.

We all have the same aspirations. Nobody wants to be hated. Well, maybe a few. But in general, you know, people want to be respected, they want to be alike, they want to participate. I mean, all of the things that human beings want. And if you can get to that root thing, then you can build on it and move forward. Giselle Hough and Becky Pringle, thanks to Convergence Center for policy resolution for

making our conversation possible. That's our show for today. We'll be back in two weeks. You can check out all our past episodes at commongroundcommittee.org slash podcasts. I'm Ashley Milne-Tight. And I'm Richard Davies. As always, thanks for listening. This podcast is part of The Democracy Group.