Let's Find Common Ground - Same Family. Different Politics: Becca Kearl and Robbie Lawler

Episode Date: November 25, 2020

In a time of deep and sometimes bitter political division, what are the most effective ways to have conversations with family members who vote for a different party or don't see the world the way that you do? In this episode of "Let's Find Common Ground" podcast, we explore the challenges and opportunities faced by many families, especially as they come together during the holidays. Our guests are Becca Kearl, a Joe Biden supporter, and her mom, Robbie Lawler, who went for Donald Trump. Becca is a Managing Partner at the non-profit group, Living Room Conversations. She is a founding member of the Utah Dialogue Practice Network. Becca is also fully engaged in the non-profit venture of raising five kids with her husband in Provo, Utah. Robbie Lawler is a mother of six and was named National Mother of Young Children in 1996. She has received awards for community projects she worked on, and most recently was events coordinator for the Law School at Brigham Young University. She lives with her husband in Alpine, Utah. We share tips and ideas about how to have difficult or awkward conversations with those you love. Find more constructive suggestions here from Living Room Conversations.

What are the most effective ways to speak with family members who don't see the world the way you do? Let's say you voted for Trump, but your brother or parents went for Biden. How do you get past those differences that divide us so deeply, especially at the holidays? That's what we're going to talk about. This is Let's Find Common Ground. I'm Ashley Miltite. And I'm Richard Davies. Today, a mother who voted for Donald Trump and her daughter who supported Joe Biden. And put out a yard sign in a mostly Republican neighborhood.

They discuss with each other and with us how they deal with difference. Rebecca Curl is a managing partner at the nonprofit group living room conversations. She's a founding member of the Utah Dialogue Practice Network. Becca is also fully engaged in the nonprofit venture of raising five kids with her husband in Provo Utah. She's the daughter. And Robbie is her mom. Both are Mormons, members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Robbie has six adult children and is received awards for her community projects. She lives with her husband and Alpine, Utah. First question to both. Robbie, you're the Republican. Yeah, oh yeah. And Becca, you're the Republican. Yeah, oh yeah. And Becca, you're the Democrat? I'm all over the place.

I'm a little more varied. I even, even with the local candidates, I'll look into the, I voted for a libertarian this time. I voted for someone from Utah, United Party. I voted for Republicans and I voted for Democrats. Robbie, you're the Republican, as you say, but that doesn't always mean you go for all the parties

candidates. I think in the past, if I didn't know a candidate, I definitely voted a straight Republican ticket. These last two elections, I have not. And I don't know if that I feel more like really, like you're saying you want this person do you even know him. If I don't know someone on the ballot, some of the other elections, I will leave it blank. And I never did before.

In this election a few weeks ago, Becca, you voted for Biden and Robbie, you went for Trump. Was that a hard choice? Probably, I would say, probably the hardest decision in all my years of voting that I've ever made. And wasn't even after I voted that happy with my vote. So it was a very strange election for me. And it was very hard. And I think for me, you know, I just weighed so many things.

It was more deeply not the politics, as much as it was the personalities. Both candidates, I just had to put aside them. And I basically voted for the vice president when I looked at them thoroughly and there stands and kind of voted on that term. Robby, have you ever voted for a Democrat? I have, I have.

And that's probably a different question, but I was raised in a pretty good family that was pretty much vote the candidate. And yet there was definitely very strong party affiliation growing up and my family and how I voted in the past. And when you say you voted for the vice president, you mean you voted more for Mike Pence than Donald Trump? Yes.

I'm sure the embarrassment factor is there. We've lived overseas several times. Donald Trump for me is sort of an embarrassment and how people perceive him and some of the things he says I wish someone had just told him to lay off all his Twitter feeds and all his comments and You know, if it sounds shallow to say I think Pence would be more presidential I do. What else do you like about Pence? We didn't hear a lot about Pence I feel because Trump sort of sucks all the air out of the room.

Correct. I just think to me he seems and I could be totally wrong. He just seemed more moderate. I think he has the best interest. I like Dem and, to be honest, if I compared the two vice presidential candidates, I liked him better than Camilla. Because he fits more my, you know, traditional Republican views, where she, to me, is very not middle of the road Democrat. Becca we've not spoken with you yet you voted for Joe Biden was your vote difficult. Yeah you know listening to my mom talk I know something that we talked a lot throughout the whole process and one of the things that she

brought up as a concern which I think kind of led to the vice Presidential pick, correct me if I'm wrong, mom, was that both presidential candidates, they would end up being the oldest, you know, president in office. And I think that I heard that on a larger stage as well, just this concern over, you know, whether you end up with someone with the Vice President having to step up into the role of president at some point during the next term. So I think mom wasn't that definitely. Definitely. The position was hard for me as well. I usually I'm unaffiliated so I go back and forth.

I voted for President Obama. I voted for Mitt Romney. I kind of look at the whole package. That being said, I wasn't overly excited about either of my options again, this election. And I think that what I've discovered is that everyone kind of has a line they have to draw in the sand. So there are things about Biden that I didn't necessarily like or resonate with.

There are things about President Trump that I definitely don't agree with. And then at the same time, I always try to kind of pull back and think about, well, the people that support him, why are they so drawn to him? Like, what is it about him that resonates with people? And I think there is like a certain draw to someone who's not, um, not like politically really polished who just tells you like it is. And I think that I can I can appreciate that. I can appreciate him, you know, challenging some of the things that we've done for so long that that would appeal to people like pulling out of the Paris Accords and things like that where it's just like he's ready. He's just going to do things his own way. And I can appreciate how that might appeal to people. For me, it's the line in the stand was kind of like what my mom referred to. Just so many of the things he says,

kind of rub up against my personal moral values. Like he doesn't, like it's all about him. And I think that when you have a position of power, part of that responsibility is to look out for the people who have no power. And I think for me, like, immigration was definitely something that I had to draw a line, or the refugee population, and the migrant population, just these people that are kind of on the fringes and are more marginalized. And I've worked with marginalized populations before.

So that for me was where I had to draw the line. And Becca, you went public with your decision for the first time I put a political sign in my yard, which I've never done before. And it was terrifying. My mom knows the first time I put it up, my in-laws are definitely conservative and I took it down before they came to our house the first time because I wasn't ready to talk to them about it. Whereas with my parents, even though I knew that they were back and forth and had traditionally been more Republican as far as their voting goes, I felt like I had the relationship enough to leave it when they came and talk about it

and how it was scary. Yeah. So Becca, talk about that. You put a yard sign up for Joe Biden and you had some arranged of reactions. Is it fair to say? Yeah, I definitely did. Have a range of reactions.

We live right by a high school, and one morning I was taking my 14 year old to school, and these high school students walked by, and they started like swearing about the sign like while my son was outside, which was a little nerve wrecking. Because to be clear, you live in Provo, Utah, and that's a pretty conservative area.

I was overwhelmingly conservative. There was a little pocket of a little area in Provo that went blue that showed up as little blue hotspot. Other than that, it's park city and Salt Lake City and the rest of the state is overwhelmingly conservative and Republican. And so there are, you know, down the street, I can round the block, there's someone I counted.

I thought there were only five. There were actually seven Trump flags hanging from their roof. One of them is Trump sort of as Rambo with a giant, you know, like, the machine gun and everything. So I think that seeing all of that, part of putting the sign out for me

was just that there's another option. And just to show like, it's okay, because I think a lot of times the predominant faith religion, which is the Church of Jesus Christ's Latter-day Saints, Mormons, gets conflated with being Republican, that being a good Mormon is being a good Republican, and for me like that was really hard this election, because part of my voting went for like, these are, this is like my moral compass. These are the values that I care about.

And I don't think that President Trump represents that at all. So it was like, my faith was pulling me to vote one way, whereas, you know, my community overwhelmingly, their faith was pulling them to vote another way. So it was, it was really tricky and it was, I was really nervous, but I did have people that I hadn't even talked to

that they would walk by walking their dog and be like, we saw that you put your Biden sign out and thank you and there aren't very many of us. And so I think it was affirming in the end, but it was also nerve wrecking. How did it go down with your church family? I mean, did you discuss it with people at church or did they discuss it with you perhaps?

I mean, right now no one's actually meeting, so there's less of that space to like have, you know, small conversations or bring up politics. And I would say I live in a different area, but again, very predominantly church of Jesus Christ of Letter Day, saying, Sormons. And for my neighborhood and area, I think a lot of people actually of my friends felt the exact same way I did. It wasn't a happy vote. We may have voted for Trump, but it wasn't that any of us were passionate about it. I think when I talk to my friends and stuff, we really wish there'd be some alternatives.

Is it time that we have more than two parties? And I know on the ballot, I saw all these other parties listed that I had no idea about. It was very interesting. And not as many signs as I would have thought around where I lived. To me, there was a little bit of apathy. There were a lot of people that, you know, we may have voted for Trump, but we weren't going to put a sign out just because it wasn't a firm vote.

It wasn't like it used to be, and I remember as a child. I mean, I think I was in junior high. The Nixon campaign headquarters was down the street. Every junior high kid went, you know, it was door to door. We got buttons. We did this in high sky. I remember Reagan. I mean, as a community, you saw the headquarters. You went in, you know, there was all this excitement

and you, you campaigned. And I think the way campaigning, the way the whole political process is now, it's, it's virtual, it's remote. And of course, with the pandemic, it made it very different this year. Both of you sound very reasonable, but you, but you do have political differences. How do you talk about them? Does it ever give rise to tension? Like maybe some siblings right notice some tension, just because of the way that they kind of lay out their ideas.

And I would say that for me, it's more about seeing the human being, like both in how I consider issues, it's seeing the human beings that are affected by issues or by policies. And the same thing when I'm talking politics, it's about seeing the people that I'm talking to. So, if you have a really good relationship of trust, if you're able to be honest and authentic with each other, then I think it's easier to talk politics, because I can understand all the reasons that lead you to vote the way that you vote.

Or with my parents, the selections cycle, it was understanding how conflicted they were and how much thought and how much processing led to their ultimate decision. I was able to separate it separate it from like the larger rhetoric of if you vote this way, you must be filling the blank. And that's just what I was gonna say, Becca. I think we have developed a family culture that we can talk about difficult things. And especially with this election process,

I think we kind of went on the journey together. I mean, Becca ended up doing the fork in the road and going one way and we did the other, but we were both pretty honest in things that we would find or hear or see. And I just think having that open communication also helped. And do you think that communication did that originate the way you raised your kids?

I'm really curious about how you grew up as a family, whether you raised your kids to talk about current affairs at the table, how all that came about. I'll let Becky answer. My dad really emphasized the importance of communication and it wasn't something that I always appreciated. I remember even, you know, there was a time where I didn't like face-to-face communication, which is interesting based on what I do for a living now, but he would write me a note and I would read the note and then I would respond like it was easier for me but it was so important that there was communication for him that he was willing to kind of think

outside the box and I think that you know we all there are six of us children I'm the oldest and we all have very different lives and you know we all look at things in a different way and bring a different perspective um but I feel like we were always able to be ourselves. Yeah, I would agree. I think to one of the practices we did was at the dinner table. Dinner table was not just a time to complain or whatever and back his whole life, we do highs and lows. So you go around the table and you say, what your low is today and what your high was today. And I think that that opened up communication

at a really young age. And I mean, I think Becca still does it with her. Can we still do it? And we do it with our grandkids. And I just think having that open communication because on the political spectrum, I think of that open communication, because on the political spectrum, I think of the six kids, I think five of the six all voted for Biden.

And I'm perfectly fine with that. And we all have talked about it. This is Let's Find Common Ground, and we're speaking with Becca Curle and her mom, Robby Lawler. I'm Ashley. And I'm Ashley. And I'm Richard. I love that highs and lows suggestion we just heard. I think I'll try it with our family, see if I can weave it in without sending awkward or pretentious.

I think that might be a bit of a challenge. Coming up, Robbie and Becca share Thanksgiving tips for families with different opinions, who might be struggling with how to talk about politics and the changes that are coming. Our podcast is the production of Common Ground Committee. Find out more about our mission and events at commongroundcommittee.org. We'd like to hear from you about what you'd like to hear more of or less of. Tell us in your podcast reviews or email us at podcast at commongroundcommittee.org. Now more from Becca who voted for Biden and her mother, Robbie, who voted for Trump. What is some Thanksgiving or Christmas tips for families to try and bridge their differences?

I think that the biggest thing is how you set up the framework. I think that you can lead out with your uncertainties in a way invites uncertainties from others, whereas when you lead out with your convictions, like that you're just absolutely certain about everything, it doesn't leave a lot of room to engage. So I would suggest something like, this political season has been exhausting. And for me personally, it's been hard. And I feel like, you know, it's been emotionally exhausting. There's been so much polarization.

And what has it been like for all of you? What did it feel like for you to be in this election instead of, you know, jumping it feel like for you to be in this election instead of you know jumping in to like a certain candidate or a certain political policy issue it can be a nice place to just set up this framework and I want to learn from all of you I want to understand how you went through this I mean this whole year really there's so many Instagram people have gone through but you don't have to talk about politics, things moving.

If you don't have this background of like sharing highs and lows, of developing these communication skills with your family members, maybe you start with that, with building communication skills, and start with a high low, and start with something that builds empathy rather than diving straight into politics if you're not there yet. And mom's advice? And I would say the other conversation is moving forward. I mean, the election has happened.

It is what it is. And so let's move forward. I can remember as a young child, another heated political contest, I remember hearing my parents say, well to Australia, you know, the sky didn't fall. I think a lot of people need to just take a deep breath and we're going to be okay. We're going to be okay as a nation. There's lots of checks and balances. We're going to be okay.

We're going to be okay as a nation. We're going to be okay as a nation. We're going to be okay as a nation. We're going to be okay as a nation. There's lots of checks and balances who ever got elected. That is our new president and let us support them and let's move forward and as a family being able to talk about those things. The other thought I just have to mention because Thanksgiving is about gratitude is we've done this exercise and that is say what you're grateful for, thankful for for for each person. I think there's nothing greater than when you can hear those things about yourself from

people that love you around the table. And I think that's a great bridging thing, especially if there has been a lot of tension, to let's look at what things within our family circle or pot or whoever's gathering virtually or in real, we are thankful about that. And I would say that about Becca, she makes me think. And I did think of things this political turn. It didn't change my mind, but I am open.

And I did think about things a few issues differently than I might have. Well, I was gonna ask each of you, actually. Becca, as far as you're aware, how do you ever changed your mom's mind about anything? I would say that I get really passionate about if there's that affect people. And so I don't know that it would translate

to a specific policy, but I think that I've definitely influenced my parents in that way. Like last year I had a nonprofit initiative called Court Watch, which will volunteer to sit into the courtroom and watch proceedings dealing with domestic violence, sexual assault, and childhood sexual abuse.

I think that maybe that was an issue that my parents weren't necessarily aware of or aware of the scale that it was happening in our state. I think that definitely involving them in that. We had monthly community conversations throughout that process for people that were volunteering as well. So I would say things like that.

I think that I have impacted her in the way she thinks about issues and maybe votes. But I don't often pull for a specific candidate. Unrobe, what about you? Oh, I was definitely influenced. I mean, when would I ever go sit in a court? I mean, I was just amazed. And this is my community and the level of domestic violence

and Becca kept saying, Mom, you have to be unbiased when you're looking in. I was like, ah! You know, it was shocking on the level of domestic violence and opened up something else because they all came back. I mean, 99% came back to drug abuse. So we have a huge issue in our country that has to be addressed.

Anyways, I get emotional because these were people's lives. And I think I'm most passionate about children and protecting them. And I think I have passed that on to Becca. I did a lot of national work years ago in that spectrum. And I'm very passionate that we have to protect our children. Yeah, I think another one that was huge that wasn't necessarily my mom or I, but we grew up in I grew up in Maine and there was zero like immigration was not. Yeah, on my way, like there was not a mass influx of immigrants coming into Maine. So it just wasn't something I thought about. And I was like, yeah, you know, like,

you got strength in the borders, like definitely a more conservative approach, I would say. And then my sister married someone who was undocumented, who just got his citizenship like a couple of weeks ago after a very long time, but like knowing him in his story, I think I would say impacted both of us. Yes, we vote on that. Let's talk about political stereotypes.

Journalists like myself usually speak of politics in terms of right versus left, or how the two parties oppose each other. But you're speaking with a lot more nuance, and that might surprise some people who think that all Mormons or members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are conservatives and all think the same. Becca? Yeah, and I think honestly that was the biggest concern

putting the sign out is that people would make assumptions about who I am based on this outward label that I just gave myself and my household. And I think it's the same thing, even in family dynamics, like that on some level, we hear a piece of information,

and because of me, because of the media, like reinforces that polarization or those stereotypes that we assume intent behind like how people vote or what people do. And I think that's another really interesting thing to explore at your table, you know, over Thanksgiving, is what assumptions do you think people make about you? And what would you want people to understand about you? That this extreme polarization doesn't help anyone and because we get these more extreme voices or stereotypes, it makes it hard just to see

each other and to understand that there is definitely more nuance in what people are bringing to the table and how they're making decisions. And I think if we would, if we take a step back from all the biases and whether that's religious, whether it's political, whether it's whatever, I do in the end feel we have more in common than we have apart. I have friends who are extreme, right and left, I can still have great conversations,

still at the core we have more in common than we have apart. But it's getting those in common conversations going that a lot of times we can't look beyond what we're seeing right up here in our faces. And I worked in the media. Sometimes the media doesn't help that. And I worked in the media. Sometimes the media doesn't help that. You know, we are so anxious to get the more exciting news

or confrontation or whatever that we're not always looking for what's behind it and that common ground. Becca and the kids we've lived outside the United States for many years, you get a whole different perspective when you do. And again, I had more in common with many of those people, but on the surface, and up front, you would think, well, she's got nothing in common.

She's a Mormon living in a Catholic country, you know? But I had many more things in common than some of my neighbors I have right now. So I think making it human, making it personal, you know, when Becca talked about the border situation, I lived, grew up right in San Diego. I mean, I was all for it. Let's close the borders.

Let's stop this. But when it became personal, I changed my mind completely. I had a different perspective. It seems like you both really value listening. Yeah, we also both like to talk. If you asked any, so I have three daughters, three sons, if you ask any of Becca's husband, Jamie, or any of the spouses, it's super hard to get a word in our family table. But I feel like we're a long line of storytellers. Yeah, we enjoy telling stories.

And so I think stories are really compelling for us to listen to and hear. And I think that when you hear someone's story, it just, and it doesn't necessarily have to change your opinion, it just allows it to be more complex. And I think that we've grown so accustomed to wanting to simplify things, to have a really easy straight answer that it's, that we start to kind of push back on that complexity. And then you get, you know, those echo chambers on social media and all of those things that just make you feel safe in that really simple understanding of, you know, a stereotype, a policy, or whatever it is. And when you hear someone's story, it shifts.

And I think it just lends well to our family because we are all storytellers. We love telling stories and listening to story. Well, Becca Curle and Roberto Lawler, thanks for sharing your story and your similarities, your differences and above all your love for each other. Yeah, it's been so nice. Thank you. Well, thank you. This has been great fun. Wow, thanks. You're having us. Becca Curle and Robbie Lawler, if you. Well, thank you. This has been great fun. Yeah, thanks. You're having us. Becca, Curl and Robbie Lawler,

if you'd like to learn more about how to navigate awkward family gatherings, there are some helpful hints and tips at livingroomconversations.org. They have a page on their website called Great Gatherings. They say great conversations begin with good questions. We can't argue with that. Thanks for listening. Let's find Common Ground, produce for Common Ground Committee. Happy Holidays!