Let's Go To Court! - 14: A Serial Killer in the Making & the Many Faces of Juanita Maxwell

Episode Date: May 2, 2018

This week, Kristin starts us off with a story that begins with the murder of her second cousin and ends with police capturing a serial killer in the making. The murder of sweet, outgoing Alissa Shippert shook Platte City, Missouri. Police were determined to catch her killer, but with most of the evidence washed away by the river and few viable suspects, justice seemed unlikely. Then, several months later, the killer struck again. But this time, the woman survived. And she told police everything she knew. Then Brandi tells the incredible story of Juanita Maxwell, a maid at a Florida motel accused of murdering a 73-year-old woman over a ballpoint pen. Like any good Brandi story, this one has twists and turns, plus an incredibly creepy moment on the witness stand. We guarantee you’ll get goosebumps. And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: On the Case with Paula Zahn episode, “River of Sorrow” Probable Cause Statement from The Platte County Landmark.com “Survivor of would-be serial killer shares horrifying tale,” Fox4 “Gruesome Details Emerge About Missouri Hatchet, Razor Attacks,” CBS St. Louis “Quintin O’Dell pleads guilty in Alissa Shippert murder case,” KMBC 9 News In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “The Other Women” Michael McLeod, Orlando Sentinel “Woman With Two Identities Absolved of Murder” Associated Press, New York Times “The Brutal Crime of Juanita’s Other Half” Birmingham Post “Not Guilty and Finally Moving On” Andrew West, Southwest Florida News-Press  

One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts! I'm Kristen Pitts. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court! On this episode, I'll talk about a man who got caught before he could become a full-fledged serial killer. And I'll be talking about Juanita Maxwell, a maid at a Florida motel,

accused of murdering a 73-year year old guest over a ballpoint pen so this one this one i feel kind of weird talking about i told you a little bit about it last week not on the podcast yeah um but this is the story of the murder of a young woman who i'm related to and i just want to say right off the bat I she was my second cousin I didn't know her in real life so I don't want to like sound like I'm overstating the relationship or anything um I went to her funeral and kind of after that I became obsessed with the case yeah and for some reason I never thought to do it for this podcast because I think it it kind of falls into this weird gray area of like I feel close to it yeah um but not so close that I feel

like I have the right to talk about it oh does that make sense okay absolutely okay um but just a few weeks ago there was an episode of on the case with paula zahn which i've never watched before no but they did i've heard of it but i've never seen yeah yeah but they did an episode about about this case and they interviewed alissa's immediate family and they talked and i kind of thought you know what maybe i don't know for some reason i i felt a little more comfortable it up a little bit to where maybe you felt like it was okay and i don't know for some reason i i felt a little more comfortable a little bit to where maybe you felt like it was okay and i don't know how to explain that but it felt like since now they're comfortable talking about about the murder and talking about what happened that you know

anyway yeah there we go so got it got it is that enough of an explanation? Yes. You know. Get to the murder already. Sorry. Super, super rude. No, but you know what I was thinking this whole time leading up to it? And maybe I'm the only one who gets annoyed by this. But like anytime there's a terrorist attack or something horrible, I feel like there's always that weird segment

of the population that tries to make it about them. Or how they were somehow like connected to it. Like the example that always pops in my head is the Paris attacks.

And I remember seeing people, like especially on social media, being like, who have no connection, who weren't affected. I go to concerts all the time that couldn't have been me. Yes.

Yes. Or like, I've always enjoyed croissants. And I think Paris is a beautiful city. You know, like, trying to make it about them. And so I think I'm so grossed out by that that I was worried that it would come across that way. I don't think that this is the same thing at all. Even though I do love croissants. Yes.

I would also like to go on the record and say that I also love croissants. Okay. So, so here we go. Yeah. Let's start. June 1st, 2011, Platte City, Missouri, which is about 20 miles north of kansas city it's a pretty small town a man who was taking his lunch break on the platte river spotted a female body floating called the police police arrive they find her face down in the water wearing only a bikini top and she's got horrific injuries to the back of her

head and to her face oh my gosh like she's been hacked with a sharp object oh my gosh yeah this is a really horrible one just like just so you know this is is going to suck. Really? I hadn't picked that up yet. It's going to be worse than you think, though, I think. So the police were stunned for a couple reasons. One, this was the first murder in Platte City in like 10 years. This is just not something they're used to seeing. And the other thing was it was so brutal, over-the-top violent. Yeah. Then they were surprised for another reason because once

they took her out of the water a few of them recognized who she was oh wow she was 22 year old alissa shippert and they knew her because she worked at casey's general store which not ever not all of our listeners are going to know what that is, but it's like, you know, a gas station general store. They're pretty common in rural areas of Missouri. You and I have bought many a candy bar there. We were frequent flyers at the Knob Noster KC's general store. Yeah, so when we were kids, we'd all go camping together and we'd ride our bikes down to the Casey's general store. And it's true, like in a small town, I think everybody knows the people who

work there. Um, and so they all knew her as this very friendly, outgoing, sweet girl who worked at the Casey's and you know, here they find her dead in just a really brutal way. her dead in just a really brutal way yeah so of course they start looking all over the area for evidence up the river they found her torn bikini bottoms a ton of blood her flip-flops they found some fishing tackle and they found footprints they immediately decided okay she was probably attacked while she was fishing. Maybe she was ambushed. We don't know. But obviously by someone with a ton of rage.

Yeah. It had to be someone who knew her. You know, this had to be something very personal. Here's what made this whole thing really tough, though. The water washed away. Yes. Yes. though the water washed away yes yes um so they they assumed she was sexually assaulted you know she had no bikini bottoms on but the water washed away any evidence of that yeah then as they were searching the the riverbed though they got a breakthrough they came they came across a really small hatchet and that's when they knew okay this is our murder

weapon yeah it makes sense with the marks she has on her head so obviously they were excited to have found the murder weapon yeah but the water had washed off all the fingerprints because it had been in the riverbed for a few days by that point so it was just yeah i don't did i i may have missed this but did you say how long they thought she'd been in the water oh god i i think like a day maybe okay but it took them a while to find the hatchet yeah yeah yeah okay so you know they did what they could they tested everything they tested the torn bikini bottoms because those i don't think were in the water so they i think they had some hope, couldn't find anything. They tested everything they could.

Nothing came up with anything. Then they searched her truck, which was parked nearby. It looked pretty normal. But they did find two receipts. And that gave them a little bit of information. So one was for a gas station where she stopped to buy snacks before she went fishing. The other was for a fishing store where she bought some bait. So that was at least something.

So they went to the gas station. And, of course, there was surveillance footage. And it showed her alone buying the snacks. So that helped them establish a timeline, at least. Like, okay, she had to have been killed between 245 and five police questioned a lot of people and it's funny like even though they didn't really have the physical evidence they needed i can see why in the beginning they thought this will be pretty easy because a lot of people were like look it's the ex-boyfriend. Yeah. And, you know, we always joke, like, it's always the boyfriend. It's always the husband.

You know, case closed. But this time it really seemed like that was the way to go. Right. A lot of her friends and family said, look, he was super controlling of her. Her brother, Tristan, said that Alyssa's ex-boyfriend had been stalking her. Oh, my gosh. And Tristan said in the interview on the Palazan show, she told him multiple times, leave me alone. I don't want to I don't want anything to do with you anymore.

And at one point he had even urged Alyssa to go to the police. Yeah. So, again, you know, pretty easy. A lot of people thought it's the ex-boyfriend. Absolutely. I mean, that's the obvious starting point. And then when you have all of that stuff that comes out when you're looking into it, I think that's. And when it looks so personal. Yeah. I mean, it definitely looks like, OK, this is someone who knew her really well, had a lot of rage. Yeah. The other thing that kind of came out from talking to people was

this guy did not take their breakup well. Right. So there you go. So then, you know, people are already suspecting the ex-boyfriend. Then tips start pouring into the police. Turns out the ex-boyfriend had been spotted the night of her murder at the grocery store covered in mud. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Yeah.

Doesn't look good. No, it it doesn't so they brought him in for questioning he was nervous fidgety kind of weird are you ready for his alibi yes his alibi was that he was fishing with a friend along the Platte River. Well, that's a terrible fucking alibi when that's where the body shows up. So police were kind of like, oh, what the hell? Because he's saying, yeah, I was right there, just about eight miles down the river from Alyssa. Or, you know, maybe upriver, who knows? And so they're like what what's this

guy's deal is he just saying this because he's worried that people might have spotted him at the scene of the crime and so he's trying to like get ahead of this you know who knows so they're kind of like they're trying to make sense of that because frankly that is like the weirdest alibi ever. Yeah. Well, but if it's the truth. Very good. Yeah. So here's the thing. They asked him to take a voice stress exam, which I have no idea what that is, but he passed it. So they're kind of like shocked by that.

I'm sure they were not expecting that. Yeah. Then they started looking into his alibi some more. And sure enough enough it was solid yeah he really was he just happened to be fishing with his friend about eight miles away from where she was killed imagine being that guy oh no no i mean you would be literally shitting your pants if you're like, yeah, no, I was fishing that night. And they're like, where were you fishing? Oh, you know, just right by where the body was found.

Oh, and did I mention that I'm controlling and I have a temper? And we had a terrible breakup. Yeah. That I didn't handle well. Yeah. You know what's so funny? I really hadn't thought about what it would be like to be in his shoes, but you're right. It's like if there was ever a situation where you could go down for something you didn't do.

I mean, all signs. Oh, my God. Holy crap. All the circumstantial signs point to him. And all I can say is thank God he was with a friend that day. Thank God. I'm sure. And I'm sure they didn't rely on just one friend.

I'm sure. So, I mean, obviously. Yeah, I think a lot of work goes into clearing a suspect, especially when you have all of that circumstantial stuff. Yes. Yes. He was cleared. I think that. Yeah, it had to have been pretty damn good.

Oh, yeah. He had to have been getting receipts everywhere saying hello how are you having very memorable conversations with everybody so they're like well dang cross him off the list they keep interviewing suspects through the course of this they found out that alissa had been sort of hanging out with a married firefighter. And they didn't go into a lot of what that relationship was on the show. But they kind of thought, OK, here's a decent motive. Maybe they were in some sort of relationship. Maybe things went south.

He's married. Maybe he was going to tell the wife. Yeah, we can all spin out and guess where that was going to go. So they thought, well, that could make sense. And also, frankly, if he's a firefighter, the hatchet makes sense. It does. Because firefighters have hatchets. Yeah, I mean, I've seen a fireman calendar.

They never wear shirts. They always have hatchets. And they have a Dalmatian with them all the time. Our only experience with firefighters is through the calendars. I feel like you might get really disappointed if you saw an actual firefighter. My whole life has been a lie. I set my house on fire for nothing. So they start looking into him. but he had a good alibi he was

like um you know she actually invited me to go fishing with her that day i couldn't go because i had to work and you know that's pretty darn easy to verify and he was at work i can't imagine being the police in this situation because at this point, I mean, they're screwed. Yeah. And you probably start that case thinking, well, surely this will be somewhat easy to figure out. Right. You know, there's the torn bikini bottoms. There's evidence.

There's these two really plausible suspects. Yeah. And then all of a sudden you've got nothing so six months go by and this was horrible on her family obviously i can't even imagine because they're like who on earth could have done this this horrible like like, brutal attack. Yeah. And again, like I said, I did not know her in real life, but everyone had the nicest things to say about her. She just seemed really bubbly and sweet. After her murder, you know, they were cleaning out her bedroom, and they found, so she had just chopped all her hair off into a pixie cut,

and they found a bag of her hair addressed to Locks of Love. And she had plans to go to joplin to help the tornado victims i mean she was just she was a sweet bubbly person yeah and she looked cool too she had this cute tattoo on her shoulder she just said she looked really really cool um so pam clark who was alissa's sister said in this episode of Paula's On, I had no idea. Everyone I knew loved Alyssa. She's just such a great person. She hated seeing people in need.

She always wanted to find a way to help them. Which that's just got to be the worst. Like, who on earth did this? Let's see if I can get through this next. Especially when you have somebody like that. Yeah. Everybody loves. Mm-hmm.

With the exception of this boyfriend. And then. Yeah, then. It's not him. He's cleared. Where does that fucking leave you? Nowhere. Yeah.

Yeah. Mm. So I'm going to see if I can get through this next part without crying oh god sorry listen i'm not prepared to cry today oh this is bad um just because her family is so sweet yeah you know so alissa's dad landis had dinner with her the night before she was killed. And she invited him to go fishing with her the next day. And he said he couldn't because he had to go to work. And he it's clear he still beats himself up for that. And he said, I said, I wish I could, but I had to work so I couldn't go with her.

I was beating myself up because had I gone fishing with her that next day, she would still have been alive. I know. That would be a terrible feeling as a parent. I can't even. No, no. Imagine. as a parent. I can't even imagine. And I feel like the thing you want to say, hearing that, is, no, no, no, you can't do that to yourself.

You can't think that way. But of course that's what you think. It's not that easy. Yeah, it's not that easy to just go, oh, well, I can't think that way. I mean, you just feel so terrible for him. So at this point, the police are frustrated. They have no evidence, no good suspects. The family is shocked and grieving.

And that's when the killer struck again. It was the day after Christmas in the middle of the night. 21-year-old shit. Okay. Some news sources don't say this woman's name. I think because she was sexually assaulted. She has since come out and done some interviews with the media. I'm just going to call her Jane for this.

Yeah. This is a last minute decision. It says her real name in the script. So just let me know if I start saying some name that's not Jane. Okay. Okay. 21 year old Jane Doe woke up in terrible pain. She thought she was having really bad period cramps.

So she went into the bathroom, looked in the mirror, and saw that she had been cut open and that her intestines were on the outside of her body. Holy shit. Yeah. She had been disemboweled. Oh my God. Like, I can't remember where exactly they said,

but neck down to her stomach, just sliced open. Oh my God. Sorry, this is tough. She obviously panicked. She fell back into the bathtub. How she didn't die. So she got up, made her way out of her apartment, and knocked on her next door neighbor's door.

And he said that he woke up hearing like this really faint knocking. So he's like, what is that? He opens the door there she is i assume naked uh yeah cut open he called the police ambulance gets there right away oh my god i'm like covered in goosebumps right now i know i know crazy yeah so i think No, I know. Crazy. Yeah. So I think by the time the ambulance got there, she was unconscious. Obviously, they were like, well, she's going to die. I mean, no one, no one survives this. They rushed her to the hospital and they did their best.

So meanwhile, police searched her apartment. There was blood everywhere. searched her apartment there was blood everywhere yeah but weirdly there was no forced entry no signs of struggle the police said no signs of prolonged struggle so no like you know table knocked over no sign that they'd been you know fighting for a long time in addition her purse was still there with money in it she had nice electronics in the apartment so their robbery wasn't a motive here exactly and immediately they're like okay this feels familiar in a really bad way yeah sexual motive clearly vicious attack on a young pretty woman oh my gosh by the way could you pull up on your computer

alissa shippert i just want to show you some pictures of her i think i'll be interested to hear what you think she looks like i i think one of the reasons i got so emotional is that she to me looks exactly like all of my cousins and you, you know, she's a second cousin, but to me, I look at her and I'm like, that's a shipper. I'm going to come over to your side. She's so cute. I know.

Super cute, super young. Yeah. Okay. So back to Jane Doe. So so at this point everyone's freaking out because now for sure we have an extremely violent killer who is not stopping yeah his second victim is about to die except even though she lost seven pints of blood and she'd been cut open and left for dead she survived holy shit yes how do you even lose that much blood and survive it is i thought like the max you could lose is like five pints and survive i i can't

even fathom it. Oh, my gosh. And I've read some interviews with her since, and she's like, she collects angel figurines. She believes in angels now. And it's like, yeah, buddy, I would, too. Yeah, no kidding. Oh, my goodness. Oh, my gosh.

It is an absolute miracle that she lived. Yeah. So here's the cool thing. miracle that she lived. Yeah. So, here's the cool thing. Four days after her attack, she was well enough to talk to the police. Holy shit. And she told them everything she could remember.

She said that that night she was in her apartment, hanging out with her friend, Quentin O'Dell. They'd been friends since high school. As she's saying this, Detective Mark Stevens is in the room. And when he heard that name, Quentin O'Dell, alarm bells went off in his head because he knew that name. Oh, my gosh.

Quentin O'Dell worked at Casey's General Store. Mm-hmm. He was one of Alyssa's co-workers. Thank you for spelling that out. Yeah, thank you. Just clarifying that I made the right connection there. You're, Brandi, you're on the right track here. You know what I've realized from this podcast all my life we've always made fun of my dad for being captain obvious and pointing out all the obvious stuff and i hate it when he does that i've

always hated it i had no idea that i do it i do it all the time and i've noticed like i always spell things out for you like remember now this was the victim of the crime i spoke about her about uh two minutes ago i'm sure you've forgotten everything i said do you like that oh my goodness every time this happens i back to, sorry to get off track. No. Like 10 years ago, it was when I moved to North Carolina for my first big girl job. Uh-huh.

And my dad and I were like, my dad flew out to help me, you know, search for an apartment and all that stuff and get settled. And we were in a McDonald's getting lunch. and all that stuff and get settled and we were in a mcdonald's getting lunch and i looked around and there was like this was before mcdonald's did kind of a revamp from to most of those stores and there was like fireplace and there were all these nice couches and i was like man this is a really can't believe this my dad goes goes well you see what they do is they actually hire someone who has a sense of what sort of things look good to the biggest amount of people and then they make the restaurant look good according to what most people think looks nice and i remember just being like dumbfounded and i was like do you think i'm stupid

like yeah i've heard of an interior decorator before yeah i i understand the motivation for like making things look pleasant i would say i've never seen a mcdonald's done this level i feel like this has been like the third or fourth episode in a row where you've been like yeah i know okay and every time i think back to the fireplace in that mcdonald's there you go how does it feel to be in your dad's shoes oh my god i uh it doesn't feel great because he does not buy expensive shoes it is really alarming when you realize like you've become your parents right okay back back to the case okay so he works at we've just discovered he works at casey's which

in case you put didn't put it together that means uh-huh uh-huh that he is alyssa's co-worker very good very good in case you're not following along too closely this does not look good for him yes thank you okay so they didn't they didn't spell this out but i'm sure that they interviewed quentin yeah at some point early on just as like okay you're her co-worker, but he didn't raise any red flags. Yeah. And frankly, after seeing some interviews with him,

I don't blame them for not seeing any red flags with him. The guy looks like he can barely take a shower in the day. I mean, he just doesn't look like he does anything, let alone, you know, viciously murder.

Not that that's something um that you'd have on a to-do list or anything but you know what i mean like he just and he kind of has this way of brush teeth yes brutal murder brutal murder yeah this guy this guy like you know when people say he lives in his mom's basement yeah that's this guy i mean he has that look yeah um he talks would you like to give some more judgments about this look look he uh he sucks so i'm gonna say whatever no offense to anybody who lives in their mom's basement how about that i don't mean to offend if you're you can be plenty successful in your mom's basement well i don't know

kristen i believe there was a time that you lived in your mom's basement it's true there's also a time that it was two months in his mom's basement although i wouldn't have called myself successful at that point. I think the one thing about living in your mom's basement is you can keep it real. You can be like, this is not the ideal situation. Okay. So Jane Doe keeps talking.

She said he arrived at her apartment a little bit before midnight. They had a few drinks. She ended up getting in a fight with her boyfriend over the phone. And then things got fuzzy. She said the last thing she remembers is she fell asleep, fully clothed in her own bed. Quentin was still in the apartment. So police interviewed Quentin. And keep in mind, at this point, he thinks she's dead.

He thinks he murdered Jane Doe and so he gives them you know whatever story he wants to give them yeah he was like oh yeah I was at her house the other night but you know I left and she was saying that some other guy was going to come over and she was thinking about sleeping with him and you know i don't know his name and i don't know what time he was going to come over but that's that's what she was telling me so they included some footage of the interview on this show and it is disturbing in one in one segment uh the detective's interviewing him and he says, you know what happened to her, right? And Quentin, he's got his arms crossed. He's leaning on the table, almost kind of like casual.

And he's got like this little smirk going on. And I wrote down that his voice, because his voice is really something. I wrote down creepy hillbilly falsetto so detective says you know what happened to her right and quentin goes i heard that she got cut open and had her organs hanging out oh my gosh yeah his tone is like gossipy and kind of like just happy to be here yeah it is it's fucking weird oh my gosh so he tells his story about oh yeah some other guy was coming over meanwhile the police are like this guy is cold-blooded yeah this is really hard to handle

also he's full of shit so then they decide to ruin his day yeah i i love this i love this part so at that point one of them's like she's alive i i just want to like see his face yes yes finds out that she's alive yeah so they're like you know she's alive and she's talking, you know, not just like, oh, she's in a coma, but she's. Yeah. She's doing all right, buddy. So one of the detectives, it's funny you said you wanted to see his reaction. One of the detectives described it like an eye twitch, like all of a sudden he was jolted like, oh, no. But, you know, he can't have a big reaction.

But obviously there was some reaction because he's thinking she's dead. I can tell them whatever i want to tell them so finally he came clean detective mark stevens said it was the strangest interview i think i've ever been through because i've never had a sociopath tell me exactly what happened and i mean that's yeah i i think that's fair i mean you listen to him talk you would think he was talking he was reading his grocery list i mean there's no emotion there's nothing oh my gosh that's a textbook sociopath but you know it's funny it's also why i can see how maybe they wouldn't cause red flags early on in the investigation because, like, they're not going to seem nervous.

They're not going to. They're just going to seem like, oh, yeah, she was nice. You know, I can't believe it happened to her. You know, I I wouldn't it wouldn't occur to me that something weird was going on. No. So I'm going to read you another part of the transcript. The detective said, what are the other things you can remember about this and quit i'm going to do you like it

you know if we were sword and scale we'd have the actual audio but since we are like junior varsity sword and scale that is correct i. I'm just, we're like, we could hold a YouTube clip up to the microphone and just hope it catches. You can listen to this when you've already gone through all the sword and scale episodes. That's exactly right. So detective says, what are the other things that you remember about this? And Quentin says, just watching her roll over in pain and then watching like her intestines and stuff fall out oh my god yeah oh yeah that is so disturbing i i really wonder about what this guy's childhood was like like what how do you get to this point yeah

by the way he was an eagle scout no yeah husband's an eagle scout look out brandy does he show emotion yes okay well we know there are things he loves in this world like puma socks that's right puma socks it's like it's like uh puma socks uh-huh oliver uh-huh which is our dog not just some dude no it's our bulldog and then me. Man, that's great. Yeah, I'm top three, so I really feel like, you know,

I got some things going for me. You know, come to think of it, for Norman, I feel like it would be pizza, peanut, me. But you know, like, if you could throw in a frozen custard i might drop even further speaking of last night like right before dinner yeah he was like man i'm really craving pizza tonight yeah and i was like yeah you know pizza sounds good. But I defrosted some turkey. Like, maybe we could just do turkey burgers and, like, sweet potato fries at home. The look on his face.

Was this if you just told him his murder victim was still alive? Yes! It was so bad. I was like, oh, or I could just poop in your mouth. I mean, wait, oh my God. Never say that again. It was like, how do you expect me to go from pizza to turkey burgers? So anyway, I don't even know how we got on that um lord jesus is the only one that

lord only knows okay quentin said the reason he attacked her was because he was sick of hearing her fight with her boyfriend okay yeah he was just sick of the screaming and hollering so like any normal person yes you stop the screaming and the drama by murdering someone or attempting to attempting to makes total sense yeah so apparently he took a box cutter which she had lying around because she just moved into the apartment and he cut her with it. Oh, my God. And even then the detectives are like, this is not the full story.

Yeah. Because by that point, they had the DNA evidence to show that there'd been a sexual assault. And he wasn't admitting to anything like that. So. I just can't stop thinking about him cutting her with a slicing her open with a box cutter like it makes my stomach like not up yeah yeah oh and her surviving it i know i know i i just always that that thing i i think what's scary to me is part of it being kind of relatable. You wake up kind of in a haze and you feel like, OK, maybe I've got my period.

I feel awful. She goes into the bathroom, looks in the mirror and her fucking intestines are hanging out. Oh, my God. Who? This goes back to what we've talked to before. I don't know that I could have crawled out of the apartment and made it to the neighbors. I think I would have laid there, fallen into the bathtub and laid there and died. I kind of think I would, too.

I think it would be so shocking. Yes. Ooh. Ugh. And the other thing. So. There are a couple things in this story that they think he's not really admitting to. The first one being some kind of sexual assault.

The second one is, this is an apartment complex with thin walls. How did no one hear her scream during this attack? Did he drug her? That's what they think. Yeah. But, you know, he's not saying this. But they think, you know, he probably put something in her drink. So you think about that.

Yeah. So not only was she cut open she was drugged and she still managed to drag i mean you talk about an amazing person yeah the hospital couldn't get evidence to show that she'd been drugged but yeah come on but the thing is even though they know we're not getting the full story, they're at this crucial point in the interrogation because even though they want to press him for more details, they're like, this is definitely the guy who killed Alyssa Shepard. Oh, yeah. For sure. We have nothing to tie him to it.

We have no evidence of it, but we know it. So if we're ever going gonna get him to confess to it it's gotta be now we have to move on talk to him so they press him about alissa and i think it's so interesting to watch the video because at one point the detective just puts his hand on quentin's shoulder and he's kind of like look just just go ahead and tell us unburden yourself and it worked quentin starts talking and he says on the day of alissa's murder he was walking down the river then he tells this weird stupid story and i'm gonna try not to get worked up but let me tell you pisses me off he says he found a hatchet as he was walking no no then he came across Alyssa and they sat around

and talked for a few hours then her fishing line got caught in something like snagged on some branches so like a good guy he gets out in the water to untangle it at some point in all this he slips he loses his footing starts floating down river but he's like it's fine i know a place where i can stop myself i'll and he gets out you know kind of backtracks and comes up behind alissa and at this point he says she's screaming and crying because she thinks that he drowned he comes comes up behind her, surprises her. She starts screaming and hitting him. He puts her in a bear hug to stop her from hitting him.

But then she's kicking him. As soon as he lets go of her, she starts hitting him again. Then he says that at the same time, they both reached for the hatchet. No. Absolutelyet. No. Absolutely not. No. So they both reached for the hatchet. He got it first.

So he hit her in the back of the head. Then he says he didn't want her to suffer. No. So he kept hitting her in the face with the hatchet until she was no longer crying or breathing. No. There's more bullshit. Then he says he felt bad. So bad that he was like, I should drown for what I did.

So he got into the river again. This time he slips again. He reaches back to grab onto something and he grabs onto Alyssa's dead body. No. Mid-slip, he says he drops the hatchet and loses his grip on Alyssa. So then he floats down the river to his mom's house, or maybe his grandma's, I don't know. Took a shower and fell asleep. This is such fucking bullshit.

Yeah. Thank you. Oh my gosh. That makes me so mad. Yeah. Like, to the point that I remember exactly where I was and what I was doing the first time I read the probable cause statement. It was like 1 a.m., I was in bed, and I was just furious. Yeah.

Because I feel like, dude, you're already admitting yeah that you murdered her why are you trying to dress it up and with such obvious bullshit she she was upset that you may have drowned so then she got so mad that she reached for a hatchet no give me a break no there's no way and oh you felt bad so you were gonna no that's disgusting yeah uh police didn't really buy it either obviously they bought that he did it obviously just not the details um so they didn't seem to think that she that he just stumbled upon her innocently that day. One of the detectives had a theory. His theory was that Quentin wanted to hook up with her.

She said no. And that set this off. Not some weird I fell in the river then resurfaced behind her and scared the crap out of her. I don't i don't know that i fully buy that one either i think this whole thing was so brutal and the fact that he tried to do this again to someone else i think he went out there that day to kill her yeah and i think if he hadn't done it that day it would have have been another day. And I think he wanted to rape her. I don't think he wanted to have.

To me, rape and sex are such totally different things. It's pizza versus turkey burger. You know, like. Well, I really I really don't like it when people say he wanted to have sex. So instead he raped her. Like, no, those are the same thing it's not oh i wanted this i'll settle for that they're totally different so i i don't think he wanted anything consensual i don't think yeah what do you think no i think that you're completely right i don't

think that was getting it done for him yeah hmm so after all this they searched quentin's apartment they found a box of photos of alissa and all the newspaper articles about her murder which this just sounds like a terrible movie at this point and they found evidence that he was targeting his next victim oh my gosh now what kills me is they didn't say what they found or who it was. But that's another reason that I think he targeted Alyssa. It wasn't just some. Yeah. Yep. Yeah.

I think that's one of the other reasons why it upset me so much to hear Landis kind of blaming himself like, oh, if I'd been out fishing with her that day. Because it just wouldn't have happened that day that's how I feel he would have come up with a different opportunity to isolate her and make this happen and I don't know that that's really that comforting but I I do think there's there are certain people there are certain crimes that like if they've got you in your sight in their sights, there's just not a lot you can reasonably do about that. Yeah. So once they had all the information they needed, they told Alyssa's family and they were stunned because they'd always considered Quentin one of Alyssa's friends. He was at the funeral with all of us. Yeah. Oh. as friends he was at the funeral with all of us yeah oh give me your thoughts on that because like i i feel like i've i'm so obsessed with true crime that i remember being at the funeral and

thinking he's here yeah i don't know who he is but he he's here. Yeah, I think it's, it is horrifying to think of. It is not the least bit surprising. That is such a good way to put it. Yeah. Because it's not like it gives anybody any comfort to be like, well, this is the normal thing that these creeps do. Yeah. But yeah, I remember seeing a lot of police there and thinking, okay, I hope they're looking really closely at everybody. Alyssa's brother Tristan was like,

never once did I suspect that Quentin was the one who did this. Never once. I'm sure Jane Doe was the same way. Quentin was her high school friend. And she even said that at one point, a few months after Alyssa's murder, they were driving by the river.

And she said something like, I really hope they catch whoever did this. Yeah. And Quentin didn't say anything. Ah. Which I'm sure in that moment didn't raise a red flag. No, I'm sure it didn't at all. It's like, oh, yeah, maybe he's just,

that was his coworker, that was his friend. Yeah, it's a painful memory. Yeah. Yes. But, of course, now I'm sure she sees that as well yeah that was super super weird so he ultimately pled guilty to first degree murder two counts of armed criminal action first degree assault and deviant sexual assault charges. So that meant that he avoided the death penalty. And the family was happy with that.

Which Missouri is the second most active behind Texas. Yeah. Wow. So had they sought the death penalty, he probably would have received it. Oh, I'm sure. Yeah,

I'm sure. Yeah. The only thing that I personally, not that matters what I think, but that I personally would have liked about a trial is that someone could have publicly on the record said, this story is bullshit. This story about you. Oh, happening to find a hatchet that there's no way that happened. But I, I totally get. Yeah. You don't want to go through the trial.

You don't want to go through the appeals because he would have gotten the death penalty and there would have been an appeal after appeal after appeal no don't want to do it um at the sentencing jane doe asked her sister to read a letter on her behalf and in the letter she referred to alissa as an angel looking down on all of them oh that just gave me goosebumps. Yeah. Oh. Yeah. She just sounded like such a wonderful person. And the fact that we lost her and that this Jane Doe woman is going to literally and figuratively be scarred for life. She's going to have surgeries for the rest of her life. All for what? Because this guy felt entitled

to do whatever he wanted to do. Yep. Ultimately, Quentin O'Dell was sentenced to two life sentences, two 100-year sentences, and one seven-year sentence. No parole. Good.

Mm-hmm. Platt County Prosecutor Eric Zond said we may well have caught a serial killer in the very beginnings thankfully we'll never know the answer to that question because he'll spend the rest of his life behind bars I think they 100% caught a serial killer totally sometimes I feel like people get a little dramatic, like, oh, serial killer in the making. This one? No. One hundred percent. For sure. Yes.

A brutal serial killer. Yep. Absolutely. I want to end with some quotes from Landis just because in every news article I've read, I've just been so struck by just who he is as a person. struck by just who he is as a person. So he was being interviewed. And he says, it says in the Bible, you have to forgive in order to be forgiven. And the news anchor said, and you forgive? And Landis said, Oh, yes. Another one, and I didn't write this down. He said something to the effect of,

I kept waking up one day thinking that I could hate him. But I can't get there. And now I feel sorry for his family because now they've lost a child too. Gosh. I know. I think that speaks so much to his character. Yes. Yeah.

Yeah. And Landis is a very religious man. And he said, I hope Quentin finds God through all this. I hope he asks for forgiveness. And I hope that God has mercy on him. Oh, my gosh. I know. I don't think I could have that same view. I don't think I could either.

I think I would let the bitterness and the anger swallow me whole. Mm-hmm. I admire that view, and I would like to hope that I could eventually get there, because it doesn't do any good I think there's somewhere in the middle yeah where you learn to not be bitter and let that horrible thing affect your life every day yeah but I think to go as far as to forgive the person who did this horrible thing to your loved one who affected your family so profoundly. Gosh, I don't think I could get there. Yeah.

Well, and it'd be interesting to know more of her family's perspective. Like Tristan, her brother said something to the effect of I I just try to remember her how I think she would want me to remember her which is as you know the happy kind funny person she was and to just not focus on what the end of her life was like yeah oh that was a heavy one it was really heavy i've kind of been dreading doing that one just because it is i think it was such a good one though yeah like yeah yeah and i think you did it justice i think you did it really really well you know what that that was what i was worried about yeah because again even though i didn't know her in real life, like I,

I care. Yeah. You know, I, I care about her family. I care. I've come to care about her. I became obsessed with this whole thing.

Yup. And yeah, you don't want to mess up your own family's one, you know, if I mess up on the insight case or the catalogs, you know, whatever, but yeah and and i i do want to say props to jane doe oh my gosh the coolest i i just cannot imagine she has got nerves of steel she i she is a superhero to me and honestly if she hadn't been that strong to crawl over to her neighbor and you know if he hadn't hurt her if she would have died

if she wouldn't have fought to live yes who knows who else would have become a victim of Quentin O'Dell? Yeah. Absolutely. Is that his name? Yeah. Okay. Oh, so you needed me to repeat it a bunch? You needed me to be obvious? Noted.

No, but I think you're totally right. All we know for sure is that there would have been another. Yeah. And because I wonder if they would have had enough yeah to catch him on her yeah i'm sure there were cell phone records showing that he agreed to come over that night but then she clearly had an angry boyfriend too or something wow who knows but but definitely um because she, they were able to catch him and they were able because they they were so quick on their feet to be like, OK, let's move on from this and get him talking about Alyssa. It just seemed like it all came together really well. OK, are you ready to get another beverage? Oh, shut it.

okay are you ready do you need to get another beverage oh shut it you know i only have three today and you have two i do now granted one of them i forced on you so i've been drinking it okay thank you i made it myself at the diet coke factory? That's right. Do you like how small that can is? I love how it's the perfect size. Okay, I'm going to be honest with you. Did I tell you why I bought that tiny size? No. My grocery store, you could either buy a six-pack of the tiny baby Diet Cokes,

or you had to buy a 36-pack. And I was like, oh my god well i don't even know that she's really gonna want to drink one of these every time like i don't want to invest this much of my life into this so i'm glad to hear that you don't feel cheated okay love it it'd be really bratty if you were like that you just didn't want to spring for the full can it's true i didn't i was like 36 where would you even put 36 exactly in a house this small you really have to make some decisions i don't have anywhere in my house to put 36 diet cokes either and i would drink them all

it's just a bathtub full of Diet Cokes. Just a ridiculous amount. All right, are you ready? I am so intrigued. For Juanita Maxwell. Yes. So I stumbled onto this case through one of those mental floss articles. What is with you and the mental floss articles?

Five blah, blah, blahs. I'm not going to tell you what the topic of the thing was. But anyway, I got the information from this by a really good article by Michael McCloud for the Orlando Sentinel, as well as articles in the New York Times and the Southwest Florida News Press. Okay. I just have to say real quick that I'm afraid i'm gonna talk weird because i was so disturbed during your case yeah i sat here chewing on my lip and now i like literally have a thing on the inside of my lip where oh no i have like chewed it so um well i talk fucking weird this episode it is kristin's fault well and i felt like i was talking weird because i was getting kind of emotional yeah yeah so this

is just the weird talking weird talking yes but uh these are new mics so if you like them let us know yes please let us know because you know we want to we're only trying to put out the best podcast on the planet for you guys that's all that's i mean just humble goals all we want is just to get together have a nice little podcast that's outrageously successful beyond anyone's wildest dreams i mean is that so much to ask and by the way we want it to be a success right now. Yeah, right this minute. We're not waiting. We're not trying to do the slow build. Yuck.

No. Nuh-uh. We want this thing to straight to the moon. I loved the look on your face right before you said straight to the moon. You were very excited. Yeah. I was popped. Sometimes just gems pop in there chris and i get really excited and they just have to come out my mouth and i have little i'm there's very little control over it it's like i'm not involved at all it's divine intervention that's why you're on this podcast okay march 13th 1979 oh it's an old one

okay but a goodie inez kelly was a guest at the palm land motel in fort myers florida as she walked down the hall to her room she passed a housekeeper and asked to borrow a pin. The housekeeper, 23-year-old Juanita Maxwell, obliged and gave Inez her pin, which she took into her room. When Juanita knocked on the woman's door a short time later and asked for her pin back, the woman reportedly said, What pin? Hmm. Before closing the door in juanita's face juanita knocked on the door and explained that while the lady might not remember her she had in fact loaned her a pin and now she needed it back so she could continue about her work

this time the woman slammed the door shut um could i interrupt yes are we talking about like a pen with the hotel logo on it or like was this like a special it was just a ballpoint pen okay it was juanita's personal pen that i don't know and she needed it for a checklist okay rooms gotcha gotcha okay so she slams the door shut several hours later inez was found dead on the floor beside her bed by another motel employee oh my god a towel had been wrapped around her throat and her skull had been smashed in with a table lamp. Oh my God. Yeah. Brutal murder. Whoa. The prime suspect was immediately Juanita because she was found in an adjoining room

in a confused and groggy state. She had fallen asleep, she said, but she was adamant that she knew nothing about Inez's violent demise. There was someone who knew what happened to Inez, though. That person was Wanda Weston. Juanita had known Wanda since she was five years old. Two years older than Juanita, she had been like a protective older sister. Juanita, by all accounts, had a rough childhood. Her mother was an abusive alcoholic who brought a string of men into her life who would abuse Juanita. Somehow,

Wanda was always there whenever Juanita was in trouble. And she would help her get through it. And she would even take her place when Juanita's mother would beat her, whip her, and abuse her. Was this an older sister? Yeah, two years older. Okay, okay, gotcha. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh.

That day, in March 1979, when Inez slammed the door in Juanita's face, Wanda was there. And was not going to stand for letting someone treat Juanita that way. So she knocked on the door, entered Mrs. Kelly's room, and confronted her about her interaction with Juanita. Hold on. Were they both maids at this hotel? She just happened to be there. Brandy. Stay tuned.

Okay. Okay. To find out more. Okay. Okay. So she saw this interaction. She was like, no, you're not going to talk to Juanita that way. So she goes to Mrs. Kelly's room, goes in the room. Inez tells her to get out.

So what does Juanita do? She picks up the table lamp and beats her to death with it. Oh my gosh. Juanita was the one people had seen talking to Inez in the hall that day, though. And she was the one who was found confused and groggy in the next room. And she was the one with blood on her shoes. So she was arrested and charged with the murder of 73-year-old Inez Kelly. Juanita was adamant, though, that she had no recollection of the murder.

And here was Wanda almost taking pride in it for the way she had stood up for Juanita. So how is it that Juanita found herself on the stand testifying at her own murder trial in 1981? So her defense attorney took a bit of a gamble by putting her on the stand. As we know, defendants do not usually testify in their own defense. It's not a great...

They usually shouldn't. Yes. But he believed this was the only way to prove that Juanita had not committed this brutal murder. Okay. On the stand, Mrs. Maxwell, Juanita, was questioned by clinical social worker Alan Klein, who had gotten to know her during the time between her arrest and her trial as one of his clients at the Florida State Hospital in Chattahoochee. Klein asked Juanita whether she smoked or used drugs. And she said, no, sir. In a low tone with her head hung.

Then he asked her if she remembered the killing. And she said she remembered little about it. Only what she'd been told. Then he asked Juanita if she'd committed the murder and she replied well they said i did it so i have to take their word for it then in a move few saw coming klein asked to speak to Wanda. Oh, shit. Mrs. Maxwell closed her eyes. No, no, no, no. And about 10 seconds later, she looked up and began giggling loudly.

Ew, no, I can't. I can't handle it. I can't handle it. She seemed glad to see Mr. Klein. Oh, shit. Identify herself. I'm freaking out. I'm freaking out. Oh, shit.

Identified herself. I'm freaking out. I'm freaking out. She seemed glad to see Mr. Klein identified herself as Wanda Weston and said she was a childhood friend of Mrs. Maxwell. I have goosebumps. I have. Oh, man, I'm about to lose it. Oh. she told mr klein that she drank and smoked and said every now and then i smoke a little weed which okay this is funny to me because of when this happened this article that i pulled some

of this information from was written the article was written in 1981 right and it said and smoked a little weed and then it says next to it a slang slang term for marijuana. That was written by Kristen Pitts. So she says, yeah, I smoke a little. I smoke a little weed every now and then. Wait, weed? I drink. And then she said Juanita Maxwell lent Mrs. Kelly a pin and later went to get the pin back. Mrs. Kelly denied borrowing the pin and slammed the door.

At that point, Wanda Weston surfaced. Oh, my God. So she knocked on the door and went into Mrs. Kelly's room. She told me to get out of her room. So I picked up the lamp and beat her with it, the defendant said. She did not think death was a harsh punishment for not returning the pin oh my god i killed her she didn't have any business treating juanita the way she did people these days you can't talk to them you gotta let them know where you're coming from

was that a direct quote that is a direct quote on the stand. Oh, wow. Mr. Klein then called Juanita Maxwell back. The woman bowed her head and closed her eyes. Seconds later, she raised her head again. The smile had been replaced by a painful look

and Mrs. Maxwell rubbed her temples. What? Oh, my God. Asked whether she knew Wanda, Mrs. Maxwell said, Yeah, she causes me a lot of trouble. So defense lawyers contended that Juanitaita now a 25 year old mother of two could not be held responsible for her actions because she suffered from multiple personality disorder right both alan klein the social worker who questioned her and robert ray a psychiatrist

testified to this at trial it was electrifying lee county circuit Circuit Judge Hugh Starnes, who heard the case, later said, Yes. bizarre a thing as you would ever see in a courtroom. Here was a very meek lady of humble cultural origins. And she suddenly changed from that type of person to someone who was going into gales of laughter, who was flirtatious, raucous, and who was calm talking about the murder. What does humble cultural origins mean? Okay. She grew up like really poor in a bad part of Florida.

So we're just going to say it's not a racial thing. Sounds super, super odd. How about that? I'll say odd. He continued and said she either had multiple personality disorder or if she was faking it she deserved an academy award okay starnes who was completely persuaded of the seriousness of juanita's illness ruled the very next day so she testifies on wednesday thursday he rules that she's not guilty by reason of insanity wow and he committed her to the

Florida State Hospital in Chattahoochee that is the funniest name all I can think of is the Alan Jackson song never knew how much that money water meant to me what song I don't know not familiar I just came were those good lyrics that I just came up with did you like those What song? I don't know. Not familiar. I just came. Were those good lyrics that I just came up with? Did you like those? So she's committed to the state hospital until she could prove to him and a panel of medical professionals that she was mentally competent. So undetermined amount of time. Okay.

Judge Starnes did not specifically rule on whether Mrs. Maxwell had a split personality, but he said he doubted whether a woman of limited intelligence with less than a high school education could have outwitted doctors through the battery of psychological tests that Mrs. Maxwell was given. How did they determine that she had limited intelligence? She never completed, like, her highest level of education was, like, eighth grade. Am I just being a bit of a pill here? I think maybe. Okay, okay, fine.

So I guess they won't be like, you know, there are a lot of people who are very smart who drop out. No, there are a lot of people who are very smart who drop out. It was the first case in the state of Florida to be deemed not guilty by reason of insanity due to multiple personality disorder. Wow. Yeah. John Dommerich, who prosecuted the case for the state, said he was not surprised by the verdict. He called the case the most unusual in his career and said he would not appeal the decision. Wow.

Yeah. I think that really speaks to how crazy that must have been on the stand. Yes. Well, I mean, me hearing about it secondhand, I was losing my mind. I can't imagine what it was like to be in the courtroom. No kidding. You know, in those situations, I especially think about the judge. Because you know the judge is like, okay, I need to get it together.

I have to have no reaction. I'm the person in the robe here. Gotta stay serious. Oh my gosh. Yeah. That would be nuts yes so nuts there's more oh my god over the next few years Juanita spent her time in chatty as she called it that's what they called this hospital um undergoing extensive therapy to discover the root of her MPD. So worth noting here, multiple personality disorder, MPD, is no longer called that.

It's called dissociative identity disorder now. They changed the name of it. It's been around forever, but it was only like officially called like a mental illness in like 1980. And this trial happened in 1981. so whoa i didn't realize it was that new yes okay yeah so she undergoes extensive therapy to figure out the root of her um mpd one of juanita's psychiatrists jerry austral believed mpd was unique for a couple of reasons. So the first is that unlike many mental illnesses, it is believed to be curable because the personalities are created during trauma. So if you can isolate the exact trauma event that caused the splintering of a new personality,

you can then rid that personality. Yes. I would have never guessed that. The second reason that she said that it's a unique mental illness is that it's a very logical mental illness. So each identity is created to serve a purpose. She compared the different identities to psychological worker bees. So basically, you go through this trauma,

and then your brain creates this identity with a specific job and a specific history that can handle that trauma. Right. And so it makes it really unique because there's a systematic way that the brain works to create these multiple personalities. That is fascinating. Yes. As Juanita went through her treatment, it was revealed that Wanda was not her only other identity right I mean you think about the amount of trauma someone would have to go through to get to that point surely there'd be more than one personality in fact she had six different personalities coexisting inside her mind wow Wanda appeared when Juanita was about four or five years old. In Juanita's imaginary system of personalities, Wanda is actually two years older than Juanita

because she was created to be a protective older sister. Although Wanda is the personality associated with violence, in conversation she is even more shy and withdrawn than Juanita usually. In conversation, she is even more shy and withdrawn than Juanita, usually. This may be because it has been Juanita's job since she was created to take all of the mental abuse and most of the physical pain that Juanita had suffered throughout her life. Right. At threatening moments, Juanita emerges and Juanita recedes, avoiding the pain. Wow. Wow.

Okay. Jennifer is the most flirtatious of all of Juanita's personalities. Given to lingering, sidelong glances, Jennifer compares herself to Lonnie Anderson, who I think was married to Burt Reynolds. You think or you know. I think, and if it's wrong, she should have been. Very good. Okay.

She boasts that she knows how to handle men. She likes flashy outfits, red dresses with daring hemlines. So, the skin on Juanita's cheeks is mottled and scarred as a result of acne during childhood. But when Jennifer comes forward, the scarring seems less apparent, masked by a healthy glow that comes to her cheeks. Oh, come on.

This next one I think is crazier. Okay. This next one I think is crazier. Okay. Linda is a scrappy, tough-talking woman with a fine sense of sarcasm and a combative nature. She might fix you with a tenacious glare and say, hey, I'm not here to be nice. Jeez. But she's all talk.

In a dangerous situation, Linda will duck out and Wanda will take over what linda likes to do most is read juanita maxwell is nearsighted and she requires glasses to see objects in the distance but linda does not require glasses to see yes whoa yes man the brain is a mysterious thing so crazy oh my gosh trisha is the shyest and least seen of juanita's um personalities she's a tomboy who loves to wear jeans and work outdoors. She claims to be able to do anything better than a man. Anne, the mother figure, who is older than them all, is a domestic, matronly, middle-aged woman. She makes great Toll House cookies. And when they, meaning Juanita and her alternate personalities, were young, Anne would fix them a hot breakfast before school.

If Wanda was the one who was out running the show, the kids got cold cereal. They used to call Wanda the sugar flake lady because of her propensity for fixing cold cereal for breakfast. Oh my gosh. Annie, a child, has never grown up in all of the years she's existed in Juanita's mind. Annie likes to color, she likes stuffed animals, and she cries a lot. The personalities within Juanita can communicate with each other. Like sorority girls who know each other's secrets, they tease each other, they gossip. Jennifer chides Wanda, for example, for not wearing makeup.

Wanda doesn't think she's attractive, Jennifer says. When Annie colors, sometimes the others tell her, you're using the wrong crayon. You're not supposed to color faces green. Wanda loves chocolates. Sometimes she orders them by the dozen. The others criticize her about her weight. I mean, this is crazy.

It makes me feel really bad for her. Absolutely. Yeah, because, I mean, I just can't imagine the amount of trauma you'd have to go through to create that much in your head. Yeah. Yes. Juanita says that her other personalities are always conscious, always watching from within. But when one of them decides to step forward and take over, Juanita herself cannot hear what is going on or keep track of what that

personality is saying or doing. When she comes back into full consciousness, it's as though she's been anesthetized. Hmm. So, so continue. I'm the one running the show. hmm so sorry continue I'm the one running the show so when something

big isn't happening it's like all six of them right all six of them are just kind of hanging out but then when an event occurs that one of them steps forward then Juanita just checks out it's like she goes into a fog she goes into a dissociative state right aren't you so glad I interrupted you for

that yes it's very hadn't become clear yet thanks for pointing out exactly what I was like it's quite the mystery each personality has a job to do something that the host personally can't do or believes that he or she can't do okay over a period of six years Juanita worked diligently with her doctors to rid herself of each of the each of these identities 1987, she appeared in front of a panel of mental health experts and Judge Starnes and was deemed mentally competent for release. Wow.

Starnes even commented that he was impressed by her earnestness. Wow. That seems like a really short time. I think that sounds like a really short time i think that sounds like a crazy short time six years so she had been in the hospital for two years between when she was arrested for the murder and when she went to trial so overall she spent eight years here

but i still think that sounds like a really short time yeah so she's released in 1987 okay i had to scroll up just a tiny bit to remember what year it was most patients go through a difficult period of adjustment after being released from a mental institution sure not wanda maxwell she hit the ground running she decided to move to saint pet. Petersburg to start a new life for herself. So before the murder, she was married, had two kids. I think she actually had three kids. It said two here. Another article said three.

Was married, had a couple kids. When she gets out of the mental hospital, her husband's kind of moved on. Her kids are living with family in Ohio. so she's trying to make a fresh start. She moves to St. Petersburg. She quickly met a nice man there, a quiet, bespectacled, devoutly religious stockroom clerk who had taken on the Muslim name of Badir el-Amin. Bespeckled? Bespectacled?

I think it's bespeckled, right? No. Bespectacled. He wore glasses. glasses yeah i know what you're trying to say i don't think you're saying it right hang on hang on we're gonna consult bespeckled would mean that he has speckles all over him bespeckled marker cover with a look oh shit you're right damn it Oh shit, you're right. Damn it. I am so editing this out. Don't you fucking dare.

So she meets this man who has glasses and specs all over wow she really looked but dear el amin to el amin juanita was the woman he'd been waiting for she was honest she prayed with him and even converted to the muslim faith and she had an open generous nature at insistence, sometimes they would buy cans of tuna and make sandwiches to pass out to the poor and homeless. Elamin learned quickly that Juanita had her quirks. Sometimes she would buy dresses that just weren't her style. They were so flashy. God, they were so flashy. I think it is pronounced flashy

i'm sorry i have to be right about something here they were so flashy that elamine couldn't imagine juanita wearing them one in particular a red dress with a hemline well above the knees seemed at odds with Juanita's subdued personality, not to mention their Muslim beliefs that women should maintain a modest, understated profile in public. Even Juanita herself couldn't explain why she bought the dress. Oh no. Then there were the times Juanita came home from the library with books on subjects Elamin had never heard her talk about. She'd been born and raised in a poor neighborhood of Fort Myers, Florida, and hadn't gotten past the eighth grade.

He didn't believe that she could understand the books on the stock market, investment banking, history, politics, law and medicine she was bringing home. Some days Elamin would come home and literally trip over stacks of books scattered all over the living room. And then Juanita might talk to him about ideas he didn't understand, using words that were beyond his grasp and from what he knew of her, well beyond Juanita's as well. Where were all these ideas coming from? Why does your face look like that? I'm just picturing her saying bespectacled. And he's like, listen, it's bespeckled. It's like, listen, you dropped out of school. I know you don't know what you're saying. I wondered about it sometimes, Elamine recalls, but I'm a patient person. I just thought everybody's got some strange ways about them.

Did he? But I mean, he knew nothing about her past. I don't think so. Yeah, I don't think he knew of her past. This is why Google is so important. He went on to create Google. Plot twist. No one saw it coming brandy this has been a really good one then one day in the spring of 1988 when elamine and juanita were getting into his car to go on an errand he noticed a man staring at them He had seen the man around the neighborhood before and knew he was a detective.

That was detective, in case you didn't catch that. Was he a detective? Who often kept track of the crack dealers along 17th Avenue, which is a rough area of St. Petersburg, which is where Elamin and Juanita lived. What, Kristen? I feel like if you're saying that someone had to keep track of the crack dealers, you don't need to say that it was rough. I'm taking a note out of your book. Listen, now I'm going to police you for obvious stuff. It was this super nice area with a ton

of crack dealers. A lot of crack dealers live there. Maybe he thinks I'm a dealer, Elamin thought to himself. As he and Juanita drove off, Elamin saw the detective get into his car and follow them.

When they pulled into the parking lot of a bank, the detective wheeled his car up to pin him in. Then suddenly four squad cars raced into the lot and surrounded them. A police officer appeared at Elamin's window and told him to stay in the car and keep his hands on the wheel.

What do you want? You must have me mixed up with someone else, Elamin said. We're not after you, the officer said. He nodded at Juanita. We're after her. Elamin watched dazed as they put the handcuffs on Juanita and put her in the back of a cruiser. Juanita appeared to be just as confused as Elamin. The police told him to follow them to the station. Once there, they led him into an interrogation room. I want to show you something, said one of the officers. There was a black and white picture in his hand.

A blown up freeze frame from a bank security video camera. He stared at the picture. There, standing in a bank lobby, with a rifle pointed toward a teller, was Juanita. No! Elamin was so shocked that he broke down and began sobbing. Oh my gosh.

Ugh. Juanita was arrested and charged with two bank robberies that she again had no recollection of. How could this happen? She was cured, right? No, you can't cure someone that fast. Her psychiatrist, Jerry Ostro, offered a bizarre explanation for this turn of events. It seemed Juanita's cure was only temporary. The personalities, knowing that Juanita could never be released from Chattahoochee until she was cured,

had simply decided to hide within her. They convinced doctors, attorneys, social workers, and even Juanita herself that they no longer existed. Then that's not a cure. Right. Yeah. existed then that's not a cure right yeah but if you've got these personalities that yeah are aware and have an understanding of how the world works how can you ever know yeah so you can maybe be treated and you can be working on it but you can't yeah Yeah. Oh, my. Interviewed in jail while awaiting trial on bank robbery charges, one of Juanita's personalities explained it best.

A streetwise, slightly sarcastic expression appeared across Juanita's usually placid face. Linda spoke. Those doctors said they wanted Juanita to get rid of us. Well, fine. We gave them what they wanted. You want us rid of us. Well, fine. We gave them what they wanted. You want us gone? No problem. Zip. Gone. It's so easy. It was so easy to fool those doctors. You know, most of them are so busy being doctors that they forget to be human beings. There was one, some guy with a foreign name, who wanted to try this operation on us.

It made us feel like laboratory rats or something. So we decided to give them what they wanted. We played their game. It was so easy we had to laugh. Oh my god. Yeah. Isn't that nuts? I don't even know what to say.

Yeah. For three years, Juanita sat in a Florida county jail where she underwent psychological evaluations and treatment as the state tried to decide how to proceed with her case. Yeah. Ultimately, they offered her a plea deal. In 1991, she pled no contest to the robbery charges and was sentenced to time served and lifetime probation. So she spent the three years in jail and then the expectation was part of her probation was that she would continue treatment for the rest of her life. In a hospitalized setting. Wait, what? No.

She was free. Three years of time served what lifetime probation off you go oh what yeah did they not have google either yeah you're kidding. No. The plan was her defense attorney said the plan was to, again, plead not guilty by reason of insanity. Sure. And that she, yeah, needed more treatment. Yeah. And the prosecution decided to not go forward with a full trial and to offer this plea deal. And as part of the terms of her probation was that she needed to have ongoing treatment for the rest of her life.

But she did not have to be in an institution. She was free to live her life as long as she continued to seek treatment. Do you not find that acceptable, Kristen? No! No! What? Yeah. I mean, that could mean anything.

Like, once a week therapy session. It could mean anything. You're right. So, how a week therapy session. It could mean anything. You're right. So, how did that go? Do you know? In a 2006 interview, Juanita said she was living a productive life with her now husband, El Amin. Wait, so they got back together? Yeah, they stayed together.

Oh, they stayed together. They never broke up. He was... Wow. He was truly patient and understanding as he spent early on. So she said she was living a productive life with her now husband, El Amin, and all of her personalities, even the unpredictable Wanda. We don't suppress Wanda, she says. We have meetings.

We talk about what's good for all of us as a group. We're cool, and I'm doing quite well. Whoa. Yes. Whoa. So I think that there's something to that, though. No, I do, too. If you're it's just the opposite.

You know, I'm not going to try and rid myself of these personalities. I'm going to acknowledge that they're there and in an attempt to be in control of them. You know, it makes me think of what they say about generalized anxiety disorder and intrusive thoughts. Like you do more damage trying to be like, Oh my God, that was an intrusive thought. I don't want to have those thoughts. And so instead, you know, they say you're supposed to be like, okay, that was a weird thought. I'm going to sit with that. I'm going to just kind of be cool and I'm not going to freak out. So, yeah, I kind of get that. Man, I don't know.

I don't know about being her husband, though. Working out for him, I guess. I guess. I say that like I've been asked to do the job. Count me not interested truly believed i guess that the juanita that he loved is not the person who did those crimes no but see and i believe that too honestly i do too i believe i completely believe it but i think i would be really freaked out like okay there's how do i know when juanita's or when exactly when wanda's gonna come. She could do something terrible to me. Yeah.

Actually, at the murder trial, she said that she had thought about, contemplated, tried to murder Juanita's first husband. Yeah, I mean, that doesn't surprise me. If you've got something in you that's like wanting to stand up for you in a really violent way then yeah i would feel like people would be at risk i also came across this story um in here when juanita was like a teenager and she had gotten i don't know uh whipping from her mom or something and there had been some argument a big blow up and juanita was going to go home and she was going to confront her mom about it. And it was just going to be an all out brawl.

Juanita came to the next morning next to six bodies of lifeless kittens. Wanda had killed the kittens as an outlet for the rage. Oh, my God. Yes. For the rage. Oh my God. Yes. To keep Juanita from having some physical altercation with her mother.

Yikes. Yeah. The brain is, I mean, the things we don't know about the brain, I can't even imagine. I feel like we don't know shit about the brain. I agree. I'm speaking just for you and I not the psychiatry world as a whole i'm speaking on behalf of scientists everywhere no i feel like it's it's something that we've only probably started really seriously studying for, you know, not that long. Yeah. So this story reminds me so much.

When I was thinking, when I was, you know, writing this, this reminds me so much of this movie that I love. But I can't tell you what movie it is because it would completely spoil it. What do you mean? I mean, oh, like if you said it, then the plot of the movie would be ruined. Yes, I can't tell you. It's a movie I love. So good. But that's all I can tell you about it.

Give me a hint. No. Oh, come on. No. I'm trying to think. The problem is I don't see a lot of movies. So I feel like I just spend all my time watching Golden Girls, writing novels and podcast episodes. Listen, I'm above a lot of things.

Says the woman with a year-long movie pass. This is true. We did get the movie pass thing. But you know me, I'm very particular. i don't want to go to a movie theater that has uncomfortable seats with you not going to that fucking art theater with norman oh my god the thing is he's asked me i realized as soon as i said it that there's been no invitation for me to go. So I have a very staunch opinion on something. I've not even been invited to partake in.

Well, just like how I don't want to be Juanita's husband, you know. But no, the little art theater in Kansas City shows great stuff. Terrible seats. Seats that I do not want to spend two hours in. Sorry to say. I have to finish by speaking about something off topic. Please do. Okay.

I'm so excited. It occurred to me last week that there's been some foreshadowing on this podcast. And I am. I've become aware that a perfect storm is brewing and i'm putting an into it right now what so we did our pranks episode uh-huh and i told you no one had ever really played a prank on me then you were like oh i'm gonna dip my toe in your prank water or whatever the fuck you said. Okay, what I said was creepy and wasn't that creepy in your prank water.

And then on the next episode we discussed my love of Wendy's chili. Yes. And then you put out a secret message

to Zachary that you want to try and infiltrate my Wendy's Chili. And I'm just letting you know, I've put the fucking puzzle pieces together, Kristen. And this ends now. Sounds like you really love your chili. now sounds like you really love your chili so for you is it wendy's chili number one oliver number two zach number three maybe i i need to get together with zach on this we're gonna pull something on you well i've got my fucking radars out i got my prank radar i've got like some shields up i have a force field so good luck i would personally love a video of you eating wendy's chili because to me there would be a lot of joy in just the paranoia

you're spooning through okay okay because here's something else that happened today okay so you know when we put an episode out we put our posts on our social media right I make those little collages right so I was like oh I need to start that for the episode that's going to come out later today. Yeah. Which is the Wendy's Chili episode. Right. And so I was like, finger Wendy's Chili, like trying to get some images. Well, I stumbled upon something even more alarming than that.

What? I didn't click the story because i couldn't handle it oh the headline said wendy's employee admits to pooping and show no are you kidding I'd rather have a finger. I want two! Do you think that's real? I think it is. There seemed to be a mugshot associated with it.

Oh, my God. Wendy's poop in Chile. Oh, wait, I'm looking on Snopes and it says this is false. Oh, thank God. Okay. Okay. Did a Wendy's employee admit to pooping in Chile

for over two years? They put pooping in quotation marks. Like that's some slang term or like. Yes, the medical term is defecating. Well, I think they could have put that in the headline, too. But I don't think pooping is so wild that they have to be like. Kristen, weed is a slang term for marijuana. So, yeah, an article reporting that a restaurant employee was caught putting his feces in chili came from a site that only publishes fake news.

Thank God. Oh, you know what? It was probably like the Washington Times or something. Hang on. Hang on. Oh, wait. No, it says in March 2016, the fake news site now ate news. Oh, yeah.

And they did put a weird mugshot of the guy. Yeah. Man, that is not a guy I'd want pooping in my chili. No. Well, I'm glad. Thank you. I'm glad we've talked this out because I was just going to believe it. You were horrified.

I was. You were like, I see the headline. I'm not clicking. I can't see anymore. Yes. Don't worry. Thank you for. Your Wendy's chili is safe.

For now. For now. safe for now i just can't believe no one pranks you in your life i mean i'm just so nice and people just love me so listen listen everybody loves me it's a sign of love when people want to lie to you and put you into an anxiety spiral about whether or not your brother-in-law is swimming naked in the family lake yeah i i loved that jay i asked him permission to tell that story on the podcast because I didn't want him to be embarrassed. And his logic was basically that. He's not the one that has to be embarrassed about his story. He's like, I'm not the one who swam naked in the lake. I'm not the one who believed that someone was swimming naked in the lake.

I'm good. I'm fine. All set. Say what you want to say I've got to say though you're talking about the Wendy's chili has made me kind of want to try chili at Wendy's which I've never said that before in my life I think it's weird that me talking about Wendy's Chili was brought up by the finger story and that has perked your interest well in Wendy's Chili because for the longest time all I knew about Wendy's Chili was the finger story yeah so you know I'm like okay I'm good but you said it's really really good and you enjoy it sometimes okay so here's the deal about Wendy's chili they you know they make it up poop in it

and then throughout like you know Wendy's big thing is that they have fresh burgers all the time this podcast is sponsored by when a burger has been like they have a set amount of time that the burger can sit there okay because they do fresh burgers all the time so once it has met that limit that the burger can sit there. Okay. Because they do fresh burgers all the time. So once it has met that limit that it can't be there on the grill anymore, it goes into the chili. So the chili just gets meatier and meatier throughout the day. It's delicious. So you hit them at like 8 p.m. and you've got yourself a big old meat chili.

That's right. It does sound pretty good. I don't think you want does sound pretty good p.m chili i don't know it sounds kind of delicious okay this episode brought to you by wendy's chili now finger and poop no one will ever ask us to sponsor anything they They're like, even when you try to say nice things, you somehow bring up poop and fingers. A haircut from Brandy. Now finger free. Now finger free. I need my fingers to cut your hair.

And to go in my mouth. Just a little extra just for you. So I listened back to that episode when I was editing it for today. And I thought the funniest moment was when I was like, had you ever done that to anybody else? Yeah, on a regular basis. Usually one, two times a week. Only if they ask for it and they always do oh okay well now i'm hungry which is yeah yeah a weird thing to say after all this but if you liked this episode if you've liked any of the episodes that you've listened to, please take time to find us on Facebook.

Give us a like. Subscribe to us wherever you listen to your podcast. Leave us a review. Find us on Twitter. Let's go to Court and Instagram, LGTC Podcast. And then we're still looking for feedback on our audio so if you have noticed a change in the audio if it's sounding better we've tried we're trying out some new mics and so we want to know if we want to commit to these please give us some feedback yeah specifically so we're

using new mics today on this episode we also use them on the Wendy's chili episode so if you heard a difference in those episodes from the other episodes not from each other then please let us let us know yes okay and join us next week when we'll be experts on two whole new topics podcast adjourned and now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. For this episode, I got most of my info from an episode of On the Case with Paula Zahn, as well as news clips from Fox 4 and KMBC 9 News. And I got most of my info from an article by Michael McLeod for

the Orlando Sentinel, as well as articles in the New York Times and the Southwest Florida News Press. For a full list of our sources, visit lgtcpodcast.com. Any errors are, of course, ours. But please don't take our word for it. Go read their stuff and watch that episode of On the Case with Paula Zahn. Are you auditioning for a new job?