Let's Go To Court! - 18: The Family Annihilator & Is This Love?

Episode Date: May 30, 2018

Kristin kicks things off with the story of tenured Rutgers University ethics professor Anna Stubblefield. A few years ago, Anna began working with a physically and mentally disabled man. Thanks to a mostly discredited technique called facilitated communication, Anna uncovered what no other professional had ever considered — that although DJ’s body was disabled, his mind was not. The two eventually fell in love. But were they really in love? And was DJ’s mind truly functioning at a high level? Did facilitated communication give DJ his voice, or was it Anna talking all along? Then Brandi tells us the story of family annihilator John List. John appeared to have it all — a sprawling mansion, a great job, and a beautiful family. But when John lost his job, he spiraled. Rather than tell his family about their new financial reality, John murdered his wife, his three children, and his mother. John meticulously planned their murders and his escape. He got away with the crimes for 18 years, but John’s luck ran dry when he was featured in an early episode of America’s Most Wanted. And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: “The Strange Case of Anna Stubblefield” by Daniel Engber, New York Times Magazine “The Strange Case of Anna Stubblefield — Revisited” by Daniel Engber, New York Times Magazine “A Second Chance for Anna Stubblefield,” Slate.com In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “John Emil List” murderpedia.org “1971 Family Killer Breaks Silence” by Austin Goodrich, ABC News “‘America’s Most Wanted’ Helped Track down This Mass Murderer in 1989” by Matt Gilligan “I Know That What Has Been Done Is Wrong” New York Times “Slaying Suspect Saw 2 Choices, Doctor Testifies” by Joseph F. Sullivan, New York Times “Killer of Family Gets 5 Life Terms” Associated Press, Los Angeles Times  

One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts! I'm Kristen Pitts. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court! On this episode, I'll talk about a tragic love story. Or is it a story about a sexual predator? I don't know.

And I'll be talking about family annihilator John List. Ew. I think this episode's going to suck. It's going to be a real bummer. Oh, God. Stay tuned, everyone. That's right. Okay.

So, there is nothing in the world. I mean, I'm not going to say say that that's a bit excited maybe being a bit dramatic i love sentences that start like that i hate we'll start there i hate the sound of somebody like chomping and like clicking their gum drives me crazy there's this guy that comes to the salon uh-huh and he i get i okay he made a joke the other day, and I think it's partially true, about him being deaf in one ear. Uh-huh. And he sits there in the waiting room while he's waiting for his turn, and he chomps and pops his gum. Oh.

It is the worst sound to listen to. Do you, like, breeze through his haircut, like, sir, you need a buzz cut today, and, like, just get it over with. Get out of here um i remember when i first found out that oprah does not approve of gum she thinks it's gross and i felt so classy because i feel the same way i enjoy gum but i think there's a fucking way to do it you don't annoy everybody around you. There's an art to it. That's right. Let's follow some proper fucking gum etiquette. Your lips should never leave each other.

Unless you're blowing an amazing bubble. Uh-huh. Yes. Chew it inside your mouth and don't fucking pop it. Ever heard of mints? This has been a PSA. Sorry, Norm. We can't do a sponsorship thing for you we've got to do a psa that's right this psa is brought to you by the gaming story

okay you ready for this i am so ready um is this what is this what we've turned our podcast into a love triangle podcast? Kind of. We love hoaxes. We love love triangles. But we did decide that the last love triangle we covered was not really a love triangle. Yeah. I think everyone has to know there's a love triangle. Everyone has to know that it's going on for it to be a love triangle.

Or at least... You're about to change the definition. Two parties need to be... Two different parties need to be connected to the same person and need to know that that's happening for it to be a... For a love triangle to... What role do adult diapers play in a love triangle? Oh, fuck.

Hopefully none. Now you're living in a fantasy world brandy okay so i'm gonna start with a shout out to the author of this article this article is amazing stop listening to this podcast right now and go read his article you're shaking your head don't tell people bad idea listening to this podcast right now and go read his article you're shaking your head don't tell people bad i'm listening to our podcast okay afterward thank you you should go read the strange case of anna stubblefield for new york times magazine by daniel engber it's such a good article this podcast is going to be a retelling a poor man's retelling of a great

article i'll get half of it wrong you won't be nearly as informed at the end but hopefully you'll hear a few jokes it's really really good i can't wait it occurred to me while i was thinking about like what i want to say about how good this article is that I'm kind of like, do you ever watch Diners, Drive-Ins and Dives with Guy Fieri and how like sometimes he'll be like, oh, this is a killer burger, man. And then other times he's like, that's a burger. I feel like I'm kind of that way with you like well there was there's an article that i read and then now you're like this is the best article like yeah i did watch a documentary for this here's the title okay and that's the information no recommendations here so but this time i'm saying this is a killer burger slash got it killer burger article okay

if burgers aren't mentioned in here i'm gonna be so pissed oh shit i'm gonna have to throw one in it's gonna seem really unnatural and also a quick note i'm gonna be talking about a family these aren't their real first names they've been changed to protect their identity by you or by dan what's his butt by dan what's his butt okay in collaboration with me no because um well we'll talk about it later got it yeah don't yeah no spoilers krist. You're about to spoil your own damn story. I almost did. Okay. A few years ago, this guy named Wesley was a PhD student at Rutgers University.

One day, his ethics professor, Anna Stubblefield, showed the class a documentary. It was about a nonverbal disabled girl who everyone assumed had a low IQ. But then, thanks to this thing called facilitated communication, she went to college. Are you familiar with this at all? I think I am. I'm not familiar with this case.

I think I'm familiar with that documentary. Okay, okay. So facilitated communication is this technique that basically someone's trained to support a disabled person's hand and basically assist them lightly in typing on a keyboard or spelling out words on an alphabet board, and then they can communicate. The documentary was really touching. Everyone's thinking this girl had a really low iq but thanks to facilitated communication it's clear that she was actually of

you know just average intelligence it wasn't it was just that she physically could not talk it wasn't that she had a low iq wesley was so excited by this documentary because his brother was severely disabled and nonverbal. He was like, I wonder if it's possible that DJ is actually of average intelligence, too. And we just haven't known it all along. So let's talk about DJ for a second. DJ can't speak. He wears diapers. He has cerebral palsy. He can't make eye contact very well, can't dress himself, can't walk without assistance. When he's upset, he screams, and when he's happy, he chirps.

said essentially look because of dj's impairments we can't test for intelligence in the traditional ways but we can infer a few things and what we can see here is that he has a short attention span he has limited comprehension and he lacks the cognitive capacity to understand and participate in decisions in other words dj's in his 30s but he has kind of the mental capacity of a toddler. But the documentary gave Wesley a lot of hope. So after class, he went to his professor and he starts telling her about his brother. And Anna was like, hey, well, I attended a workshop on facilitated communication last year. My mom did this for like her entire career. I'd be happy to help your brother if you want.

And he's like, absolutely. Of course. So she did. During Anna's first meeting with DJ, she showed him all these pictures that she'd cut out of magazines. There was a picture of a laundry room, a kitchen, a bedroom, a bathroom.

And she asked him, okay, in which room would you find a stove and very quickly she was like please don't be insulted i assume you know the answers to these questions this is just yeah yeah she waited for him to point to the kitchen but he couldn't do it so she tried facilitated communication you know she put her hand on his elbow to stabilize his arm, and he picked out the picture of the kitchen. Amazing. Yeah. After that, she asked him who the president was, and with her help, he picked out Barack Obama.

This was a few years ago. So then they moved on to letters. And based on how that went, it was that dj actually knew the alphabet yeah and he could even spell some simple words and eventually they moved on to spelling words on a keyboard it was amazing yeah uh the people who had evaluated dj in the past had gotten it all wrong right Sure, he couldn't speak. Absolutely, he had physical disabilities. But clearly they had made a massive assumption. They assumed that because he couldn't get his physical body to do certain things that

his mind was also struggling. But it wasn't. He was actually super smart. Yeah. DJ's mother, Jane, was thrilled. She took DJ to Anna every two weeks and started inviting Anna over to her house. Jane was just over the moon. Every other medical professional had told her that DJ had the intelligence of a small child,

and they'd all been wrong. Yeah. Sometimes Jane would get too excited, andna would say to her look you're distracting him i need you to leave the room and so jane did because she didn't want to interfere with this important work thanks to facilitated communication they discovered all sorts of things about dj like that he loved to read and he could read 10 pages a minute just super fast yeah suddenly his life that's really fucking fast uh yeah yeah i read like one page i am the slowest reader ever reader it was always so embarrassing in like high school when the teacher would be like

let's all read a short story. You can do it on your own. And I'd be looking over and other people were way ahead in the story. And I'd be like, hmm. Yes. I would like to just clarify and say I am a slow reader, but I have great retention for what I read. So in your face. You know what?

I would like to say the same about myself. My comprehension is great. Comprehension through the roof. Speed, very low. You give me that five-page paper, come back in two hours, and I can tell you everything about it. So, DJ started thinking about getting his DJ, whoa. DJ started thinking. To get his DJ license Whoa. DJ started to get his DJ license. DJ was going to be a DJ.

You know, the thing is, there are some things that facilitated communication can't help with. So he started thinking about getting his GED and Anna encouraged him all the way. Yeah. In 2010, she urged him to write a paper for the upcoming conference of the Society for Disabled Studies. So he did. And his brother, Wesley, read that speech at the conference. And it said, in part, I am jumping for joy knowing I can talk. But don't minimize how humiliating it can be to know people jump to the conclusion that I am mentally disabled.

So, I mean, really sad. There's this fully functioning brain in this body that just can't, yeah, can't do it. Things were looking great for DJ. Soon he was sitting in on an African-American literature class at Rutgers and Anna had an undergrad named Sharonda Jones use facilitated communication to help him with his homework. Sharonda later said, he pretty much read the books. I can't tell you what he read. And he typed out the information. I know because one of my roommates was in the class with him, and they pretty much wrote some of the same things. There's a lot of pretty muches in that statement typical undergrads

she sounds just like us on a witness i bet she has great reading comprehension. I bet she does too. She sounds like a great reader. So this was a really exciting time, but things weren't perfect. Wesley and Jane were upset. They were taking these classes in facilitated communication,

but for whatever reason, when they tried to do it, it didn't work. Kristen! No! Hey, don't look at me like I'm the problem here. She fucking faked it? She was doing it all?

That's up for debate. So... fucking continue. It worked with Anna and it worked with Sharonda, but probably because Sharonda was lying for Anna. Pretty much. Pretty much. Don't say it. So it worked for Anna and Sharonda, but not for Wesley or Jane.

They just couldn't make it work. Anna told them, keep practicing. And she was blunt. She said he might prefer working with some people over other people. He just likes me better. Oh, no. You're putting it together. Yeah, I just, your intro just clicked with this fucking story.

This is going to take a terrible turn. So that was hard for Wesley to hear hear he wanted to communicate with his brother but he didn't want to have to wait for anna to be around you know he wanted to just communicate oh the look on your face your i was so excited i know dj i know By early 2011, Wesley was really frustrated, but he wasn't going to give up. So, okay, your face. You're going to have to change your face right now. Your eyebrows look like an inverted V. They're just so concerned.

Okay, now that's too happy. Wait, do you want crazy eyes? No. You're going to have to give me neutral. concerned okay now that's too happy wait you want crazy eyes no you're gonna have to give me neutral okay so he wasn't gonna give up he decided to re-watch that documentary that anna had shown in class he wanted to kind of study what the people in that documentary were doing because surely he was doing something wrong here. He started searching for it,

but instead he came across an episode of Frontline from 1993. It was an investigation into facilitated communication. For the first time, Wesley learned that even though some people wholeheartedly believe in facilitated communication, most of the scientific community does not. They liken it to a Ouija board. Yeah. Yeah. So let's talk about facilitated communication. It was introduced about 40 years ago and it all started with this disabled australian woman named ann mcdonald at three years old you know she had

all these disabilities was diagnosed with severe mental retardation but as ann grew older this woman at the mental health authority named rosemary crosley took an interest in her and together they kind of came up with facilitated communication. And of course, with Rosemary's help, Anne proved to be very intelligent and like into politics and stuff. Were her views exactly the same as Anne's? Fair question. Some people thought this was bullshit at the time.

But this practice got put to the test when Anne turned 18. She went to court because she wanted to leave the institution, I assume, that she was in. And the court made Rosemary leave the room. And they showed Anne two words, string and quince. Then they brought Rosemary back into the room. And they're like, okay, facilitate away if this thing is real. What words did we just show? And Anne wrote

string and quit. And the judge was like, hot damn close enough. No shit. Wow. You win. Facilitated communication is for real. This is amazing. Yeah.

Obviously, that was huge news. That gave me goosebumps. Yeah. I mean, it's nuts. Yeah. It was really exciting for people who had nonverbal disabled family members and friends. Rosemary said, look, part of this method is you need to just assume that people are intelligent assume competence otherwise they might perform to your low expectations go in with that knowledge do this facilitated communication and you can help someone be freed you know yeah in their voice

in the early 90s facilitated communication became really popular but there were still people who were like i don't know around this time um there were a lot of people talking about child sexual abuse i'm not sure why but i guess it was a big thing in the i mean who doesn't like to talk about child sexual abuse, Kristen? Good point. I can't wait for your case. So by 1994, 60 disabled people claimed they were survivors of sexual abuse, and they made those claims through facilitated communication.

Okay. So people were kind of like, that's weird that all of a sudden this is coming out and it's kind of in the news a lot. So they looked into it and they decided to test things by first asking the people about information that their facilitators couldn't possibly know. Yeah. And they found that the information was inaccurate. They found that facilitated communication wasn't really happening. It had to be that the facilitator alone was the one communicating. And they kind of went down this path of, look, it's not that these facilitators have bad

intentions necessarily. We think that they have really good intentions, but this, this facilitation they're giving is, you know, creating kind of involuntary movements, you know, sorry,

I'm making these weird hand gestures. I'm talking about a very serious topic, Kristen, and you're over there wagging one arm around with the other one. I was trying to show you how it looked. Okay. So even though people

had been really excited about this concept a few years prior, by like 93, 94, people were like, mm-mm-mm-mm. So I do want to stop here

and say that and pee no normally yes give it five more minutes you know through this podcast we end up revealing

a lot about ourselves I did not think the thing I would reveal about myself is that I'm just constantly urinating constantly all the time I'm reveal about myself is that I'm just constantly urinating all the time. I'm all, where's Kristen? Peeing. So I do just want to say that there are

examples of people who received facilitated communication and are now able to communicate on their own. Wow. Yes. Okay. So I guess there's two ways to look at that. One is this works. Yeah. A more skeptical way could be they would have learned to communicate somehow anyway. But I'm going to choose to look at it that this works for some people. You know, that's kind of how I. Yeah.

Yeah. It's probably not for everyone yeah and you know the other thing is in this article like he did a really good job of delving into kind of the you know just trying to show you all sides of this and some people say that the backlash against facilitated communication went way way way too far and that yeah some facilitators weren't good at their jobs yeah but that doesn't mean that facilitated communication as a whole doesn't work yeah yeah exactly that's with anything but sometimes i feel like people forget that yeah absolutely i i was thinking about, like, when it comes to reporting, I think people are weird about it.

Like, how do I say this? I used to work with someone who the people in the public, the people who read the newspaper, the people who were covered by the newspaper, called this person biased. They thought this person was, person was out to get them, had an agenda. My opinion, from working closely with this person for a few years, was that the person was dumb. But I feel like there are certain jobs

where no one assumes you're dumb. They assume you've got these evil intentions. And so that made me, I kept thinking about that with facilitated communication that like yeah there there's a certain segment of the population that they're just not going to do their job correctly and it's not that the thing they're doing is useless that they're intentionally not doing it correctly yeah yeah okay so anyway wesley established there are dumb people moving on i know that's news to you not doing it correctly. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So anyway, Wesley... We've established there are dumb people

moving on. I know that's news to you guys. So Wesley watched the frontline investigation and it planted some really troubling doubts in his head.

Yeah. Because I assume that before this he had no idea that most people dismissed the same type of communication. But there were some other things that had made him skeptical.

First, some of the messages that DJ came up with didn't seem right. At one point, he said he loved red wine and even mentioned the specific brand that he liked. Yeah, your face is the same as mine right now. Why the fuck was he going to be drinking red wine? Exactly. Exactly. So Wesley and his mom were DJ's legal guardians. And he knew that DJ had never shown any interest in wine.

And frankly, I can't imagine giving someone wine if up until, you know, relatively recently you assumed that they were in many respects like a toddler. Correct. The other thing was that DJ said he didn't like gospel music. And Wesley was like, you know, no, we go to church and like he's he's bopping to the music like he seems to. Maybe he's trying to get away. Yeah. He's like, I hate this gospel music. But, you know, so like a few things he was saying, Wesley was like, I don't know. He later said it seemed very much of what she liked, but not what DJ liked.

Yeah. Weird. Jane and Anna started to clash too. Anna started really advocating for DJ. She wanted him to be treated like a grown man, which, you know, was what he was. She wanted him to have his own place and wear more grown up clothes. And Jane just couldn't get behind that. She was like, I'm still his mom.

Yeah, get his own place! I assume in, like, some kind of facilitated, you know, like... But just basically... Isolate him from his family. That's one way to look at it. Uh-huh. When Anna saw DJ, she saw a man with an adult brain, trapped in this body that wouldn't allow people to see his intelligence. Over time, she developed feelings for him.

She says she tried to fight them because she was married and had kids, but she couldn't. She loved him. One day after a presentation at Rutgers, a student asked DJ if he'd ever want to be in a romantic relationship. And he said that he did want that, but didn't know if that was possible, given his disability. Mm-hmm. He said that through the help of Anna. Yeah. Mm-hmm. This fucking story, Kristen. i know i know so that sparked something in anna a week later at his day

program she came out with it she was like i love you and he said it back again with her help and they got into a pretty emotional discussion he He was like, how committed are you to me? How much do you really love me? What about your husband? And she's like, please slow down. I need to think this through. And DJ apologized for being so pushy. They talked some more, and he asked her to kiss him.

Then he asked if it would be physically possible for them to make love. he asked if it would be physically possible for them to make love. A week later. Okay, you got to describe what you're doing. You got to use your words, Brandi. I am so upset right now. I'm just like shaking my head. Yeah. I think that I have come to a conclusion about the question you asked in your intro.

Is this love or a fucking sexual predator yeah yeah it's not the first one i'll tell you that way to not give it all the way away a week later while jane was at church they tried to have sex. But it didn't work out. DJ kept sitting up. Finally, she got him the keyboard and she was like, what's wrong? And he said, nothing. I'm just really excited. I'm overwhelmed. I just need a little time. So then she says some stuff about like, hey, we'll go at your own pace. No pressure. But a minute later, she's's naked he asks for oral sex she pulls down his pants loosened the diaper and gave him a blow job why did you have to say it like that you know i'm gonna be honest the the article mentioned loosened the diaper and i thought yeah you can't like you can't lose sight of the state of his

state you know i don't know i i'm sorry there's no there's no way to tell this that isn't disturbing yeah if you're thinking about the possibility that she's a sexual predator yeah and that he really does have the mental capacity of a toddler you Of a toddler. You ready for more bad stuff? Fuck, Kristen. So he didn't finish, but he told her he was close. A week later, they tried again in Anna's office at Rutgers. But it didn't work. Anna suggested watching porn, but DJ said, No, I'm worried that the women in porn are being

exploited. I'm sorry, it's not funny. See, I think it is, because to me, there are certain things that i'm like it's in the same vein as the red wine thing yeah it's like first of all so far from where is a realistic thought would be yeah yeah and like i'm sorry when has he watched porn yeah um let alone like i i so this guy's like 30 years old yeah how many 30 year old men are seriously like no i don't want to watch porn because i'm worried the women are being exploited i'm sure some some and i would say this would be my argument for that okay his family is religious he's obviously been going to church that could be the opinion of their, you know,

religious faith. Sure. Maybe. I think it's way more likely that that's the opinion of an educated woman. There are certain things that I just think,

I just think, oh uh woman's thinking that so again he said i'm worried that the women in porn are being a human woman haters tinfoil hat on again do you kristin but see that's not anti-man of me it is actually you think so for you to think that a man wouldn't think that porn is bad because women are being exploited? That is not what I'm saying. Because I said, some men do think that, I'm sure. But I think it's much more likely in this scenario where we're trying to figure out, did a man say it or did a woman say it? I think the woman said it. And I don't think that man had ever watched porn before.

No, I don't think he had either. Let alone watched enough to form an opinion. Yeah. You know, that's a sophisticated porn user by that point. Like when you're thinking about it. But anyway. No, I beg to differ. Really?

I think it's either end of the spectrum. It is a sophisticated porn user. Okay. Or it is someone who has never seen porn has a very strong opinion against it you know what that's a really good point yeah and that's why the two of us have to do this podcast together no that seriously is a really good point yeah okay okay carry on got another line for you. Oh, God. He says, besides, you're way more beautiful than any porn star.

Oh, yeah. She totally did that. Okay. Okay. Okay. But, Brandi, devil's advocate. Don't you think that a man said that okay if that's your fucking impression of me i am pissed right now because i don't sound nearly that much like cartman

you are closing up your laptop and going home. So yeah, that's supposedly what he said to her. A week later, they tried again. And this time, everything came together, which I don't think I meant to be quite as disgusting. That's super disgusting. I thought I was like being polite about it. I don't think you were no afterward he typed i feel alive for the first time in my life so they're in love and they're expressing it physically and dj was like it's time to tell my family they might not like it but they need to know meanwhile anna's

still married and has children oh yeah okay on memorial day 2011 dj and anna sat wesley and jane down and announced that they were in love and wesley and jane, great, we're so happy for you. Let's do a spring wedding. Weirdly, no. Jane was shocked. She said, what do you mean in love? She was so disgusted that she looked like she was about to be physically ill. Wesley immediately felt sick to his stomach and he lashed out at anna he said you've taken advantage of my brother yes because in their world he's the equivalent of a toddler

well and they had been hoping that that wasn't true yes but they'd gotten these doubts yeah and i'm sorry, but even. Even if he was like exactly what Anna thought he was. You don't expect someone who you enlisted to help someone to. No. But DJ argued back. He said, no one's been taken advantage of. I've been trying to seduce Anna for years, and she resisted valiantly. Then he said to Anna, kiss me. This is fucked up.

Yeah. Yep. Jane and Wesley were disgusted, and they cut contact with Anna. I think it's pronounced Anna, but I've messed it up this whole time, so who cares? But Anna kept calling. One day, she went to their house and stopped Jane as she was pulling into the driveway. Anna said, I promise I'll sign a formal declaration saying that I'll leave my husband in five years and marry DJ.

What the fuck's the five years for? It's funny. There are certain moments in this story where I'm like, no, you lose me, Anna. This is one of those moments. That's fucking weird. I'll sign a formal declaration saying that I'll leave my husband

in five years and marry DJ what the hell is that that's so weird this is someone who's I think so wrapped up in their own thing they've got this huge ego oh I can make it all right

with everyone if i do this no jane said anna go home to your children like yeah which i love i love that like lady get the hell out of here at that point wesley came out of the house and he'd had enough of this. By this point, he's thinking, she used my brother to advance her career. She used him as a guinea pig. And she got sick sexual pleasure from all this. Like, no, thank you. Yeah.

Hard pass. So he said, look, if facilitated communication is real, then let's put it to the test. So they all got together and Wesley asked his brother, who is Georgia? Obviously, Anna did not know Georgia. Georgia had died before Anna knew any of them. She was DJ's auntie and would sometimes watch them when Jane was at work. DJ typed out, Georgia in high school worked for mom then wesley asked okay who's sally and that was sort of a trick question because sally was

george's nickname okay in response dj typed out mom's little nephew and kind of trailed off. And by that point, they were both like, no, no, this is not real. This has been Anna the whole time. Nope. Holy shit. They're like, go work on your marriage. Goodbye. Yeah.

Anna was devastated. She maintained that her relationship with DJ was real in her book disability and the good human life Anna wrote about DJ and she said in the spring of 2011 DJ's access to his means of communication was taken from him and he is once again treated as severely intellectually impaired by those who have control over his life this chapter is dedicated to him in hope that he will one day regain his voice and his freedom fuck her shut up yeah she failed the test if he was really communicating he would have known the answer to those questions so it has been a lie the whole fucking time.

We'll see. We're going to learn more about his answers to those questions in a minute. Are you going to make me take back the fucker, Kristen? Possibly not. Possibly I will. I don't know. Am I being adorable and coy right now? No. Possibly not. Possibly I will. I don't know. Am I being adorable and coy right now?

No. What? How dare you? Anytime I ask if I'm being adorable, you say yes. Oh, sorry. Yes. Okay. Supes adorbs. Now it sounds sarcastic so a while later anna contacted dj's afternoon

day program she wrote this email to the director and she said that dj's family was unsure about whether she could come see him and she was like hey buddy why don't you let me in there so I can talk to DJ again? But the day program was like, and they called Jane and Wesley and they were like, we just got a weird email from Anna. And that was the last straw. Until that point, they wanted to just forget the whole thing and be like, Anna, get the hell away from us. But not anymore. So Wesley wrote his own email to the dean of faculty at Rutgers. Oh, snap.

He said, this is part of the email. He said, that my mother and I do not know what is in DJ's best interest, is insulting and straddles the racial assumptions about the capacity of black parents to properly raise their children. So this was especially pointed because Anna's whole academic life had been basically devoted to two things, disability work and anti-racism work. Yeah. So Wesley's like, you suck at both. No, guys.

Then they called the police yeah and they explained the whole situation and anna was charged with two counts of first degree aggravated sexual assault which is like my understanding is it's like gang rape level charges. Like this is this is fucking serious. What? Gang rape level charges. It's like, you know, if you commit a gang rape, this is what you'll get charged with. Thank you. Is this hard to. What?

I just feel like it's a weird comparison. All right. It's a weird comparison. All right. So Anna, of course, immediately got a lawyer. And her lawyer was like, okay, first things first, I need you to write down a full account of your relationship with DJ. So she did.

Over the course of 12 pages, she explained every sexual encounter, which is how I was able to go into so much detail earlier. Meanwhile, her family is learning about this for the first time. Her husband? Uh-huh. Shit. Her husband had no idea this was going on, I think until she was charged with it. Holy shit. That was how he learned about all of this.

So he gets on the computer and he finds this 12-page document and he's like you know what if this is a real romance and you're so proud of it why not tell everybody so he emailed copies of it to the prosecution and to dj's family oh my god yeah fuck mm-hmm yeesh i get it i i mean i so do i so now both sides have this graphic account from anna's. But the defense knew what they were going to do at trial. They were going to argue that this was sex between two consenting adults. Sure. There was one big problem.

Before the trial began, the judge ruled that facilitated communication did not meet New Jersey's test for scientific evidence. So they couldn't present any evidence that this facilitated communication allowed DJ to communicate and to communicate consent. Yeah. So then it would all come down to Anna at trial. She could testify about how they communicated and why she thought it worked,

but that was it. Wow. The jury would basically just have to trust her. As I understand it it like no experts could be called in to say oh well this is a thing no what about experts arguing that it's not a thing could they be called in i my understanding is that it basically could not be discussed or debated because it did not meet that standard. The trial lasted three weeks. Members of Anna's family, I assume not the husband,

and some disability activists and other people she'd helped stood in support of her. To some people, this was a tragic love story. And to others, it was the story about a sexual predator. I'm with them. On the stand, Anna described how her relationship with DJ grew over time. She explained that he was happy and willing during the sexual encounters and that this was not something she forced on him.

She said she became confident in DJ's ability to communicate with her when he told her several things about himself, like his birthday, that she couldn't have possibly known. Meanwhile, the prosecution argued that DJ couldn't consent to sex, that he was physically unable to stop it from happening, and that Anna either knew or should have known that that was the case. So one thing they did was they actually brought dj into the court just to show him to the jury um and this got controversial afterward the defense argued that the prosecution intentionally blocked dj's view of anna because apparently dj would

have some sort of reaction to seeing Anna, maybe reaching for her or something. But defense said they blocked the view on purpose. Here's something interesting. Okay, remember earlier when I talked about Wesley kind of testing facilitated communication with Georgia? Okay. So that came up in court, and Anna's defense

argued that dj's responses actually worked in their favor i'm fucking listening explain how i'm skeptical okay so remember the first question was who is georgia and dj responded georgia in high school worked for mom and so the defense was like yeah she did do some babysitting for jane i am unimpressed okay how about this one the next question who is sally and dj responded mom's little nephew, and kind of trailed off. And the defense was like, yeah, he meant mom's little nephew's kin. No, he fucking didn't. Bullshit. I don't have to take back my fuck you, Anna.

Yet. Yet. The jury deliberated for less than three hours. Uh-huh. They found her guilty. Yeah! Fuck yeah, they did! DJ couldn't give consent.

Anna knew or should have known. Anna broke down crying. She faced 10 to 20 years for each time she'd had sex with DJ to be served consecutively. How many times did she have sex with him? I think it was determined twice once for the oral sex and then once for the you know penetration don't say that first of all you said it and then you like lowered your brow and like fucking like zoned in on my eyes and then it turned into your fucking creepy voice sorry i have nightmares about that

it's my gift to you some gifts thanks for this gift i've never wanted ever so anna was sentenced to 12 years in prison wow yeah what do you think about that um are you not ready to i'm not ready to give you my opinion yet okay Okay. Because she appealed. Oh, fuck. And in 2015, a three panel, a three panel judge. He folded himself out like an accordion. He's like a closet door. He was made of solid pine. We're thinking about painting him gray so it's a more modern look. In 2015, a three-judge panel. That makes way more sense.

They overturned her conviction. Really? They said that the judge in her trial unfairly excluded evidence relating to dj's ability to give consent so basically by not allowing any evidence on facilitated communication the judge prevented her from giving a full defense which i agree with i agree with that too actually i think you kind of have to you have to be able to see that side of it but at the end then the prosecution can bring on experts that say it's not real yeah so then in early april 2018 got a fresh one okay that is like your favorite phrase it is i think it's because it's kind of creepy it is creepy do i like creepy stuff no No, I don't know.

I like going to the bathroom a lot. Saying creepy things. Hoaxes. Yeah. Love triangles. Yep. Diapers. You know, I was about to debate you, but I do like a case involving a diaper.

So, Anna got a plea deal she pled guilty to criminal sexual contact a much lesser charge obviously yeah would she get six months probation we don't know yet anna could get credit for time served her sentencing is scheduled for may 7th you're leaving us on a fucking cliffhanger well you know what i just realized this is gonna be out it'll be may 7th by the time we release this episode so everybody just google it yeah you know but it's you want to predict the future my prediction yeah is that she'll get out. Yeah, I agree. Yeah. It's a much lower charge. Yeah. How much time has she served?

Three years? Yeah, I think she was sentenced in 2015. I felt like that's what you said. Yeah. And I think that this, I think that criminal sexual contact carries a maximum of four years. Yeah, I bet she gets out on time served. What are your thoughts um she's a sexual predator for sure do you think she do you think she knowingly was a sexual predator do you think she knew the facilitated communication was bullshit and yes oh

yeah you think she didn't know she was moving the fucking ouija board thing i think she wanted to believe so much it was real that she was imparting her own thoughts and didn't even know it was a subconscious thing here's Here's my opinion on her, and it's complicated. I think she's a sexual predator. Yeah. I think she's an egomaniac.

Yeah. I think she's condescending as hell. I think Wesley was totally right that here she is, you know, saying that she knows best about something that is really not her thing. But at the same time, I think about the fact that her mom was really involved in facilitated communication throughout her career.

The fact that she felt like she'd helped other people. I think there's a chance she thought it was real, but I feel like she pushed it. Yeah. So do I. Oh, God. Can we have a day where somebody doesn't fucking come to the goddamn door, Kristen? I'd like to just revisit the end of your case and sum up my thoughts on it please do because i

feel like we got interrupted before i could state again that i think that she's a fucking sexual predator 100 no doubt about it do i think that her feelings for with for dj were real yes absolutely do i think that she thought that he was really communicating with her? No, I do not. I think that there was something about having power over an individual. Yeah. That she probably mistook for feelings of love. Yeah. And being his savior.

Yeah. I'm with you. Yeah. And being his savior. Yeah. I'm with you. Yeah. And I think that my question with the plea deal is, will she have to register as a sex offender? Or is that a low enough charge that she will not? I don't know. I'm sure she will. What's the official lower charge?

Criminal sexual contact. It has to be. That has to be a sex. I bet she has to register for a sex offender. So register for a sex offender. On her wedding registry. Fuck. bill and i would like one sex it can be from anywhere but we really like the one at creighton barrel

bed bath and beyond really has a better selection of sex probably does yeah I bet she would have to yeah which alright I find that satisfying so yeah this whole thing is just so gross

and weird it is and upsetting it is I mean she was a tenured professor at Rutgers. Okay.

How does that work with tenure? Is she? It's funny because tenure is one of those things that everyone's like, basically you got a job for life, but I'm sure she, surely under these circumstances, I don't think she's going to get out of prison and be like, did you keep my spot open?

Yeah. I can't imagine. As a sex offender, could she even teach anymore? I would assume not. I would assume not as well. I mean, I feel like any felony is going to, which I assume criminal sexual contact. Yeah, that's got to be a felony. Why don't you know?

I have no idea. You know, it'd be really. It's not my fucking case, Kristen. I want you to know all about the sex charges. Yeah. Yeah. That was a crazy one. I'm interested to find out. I'm sure that our prediction is correct and she'll be released on time served.

Probably. Yeah. I remember exactly where I was when I first read this article. I stumbled across it at work. It was last night at 10 p.m. I'll never forget it. 12 hours ago. No, it was like I was at work.

Yeah. And I mean, this case is just insane. It is insane. And you feel so terrible because there's so... Because you still have a question about whether it's real or not, right? I want so badly

for facilitated communication to be a real thing and for DJ to... I think it is a real thing, but I don't think that DJ was doing it. He failed the fucking test christian yeah and he couldn't do it with his brother or his mom yeah suddenly only anna was the one that

could get it to work well and sharonda but sharonda fucking lied okay here's no let me pull up sharonda's quote again because Sharonda pretty much lied, Kristen. Okay. Listen to what she says. Yeah, I heard what she said. He pretty much did it, and he pretty much wrote what everybody else in the pretty much class pretty much wrote. The thing that stood out to me about what she said was,

I know because one of my roommates was in the class with him, and they pretty much wrote some of the class with him and they pretty much wrote some of the same things okay pretty much now you're laughing but part of me wonders then it's like was she unintentionally helping him too if she had this roommate who was also in this class and obviously she had to have read some of her roommate's stuff, it just makes you wonder, right? I think there's way too many pretty muches in her sentence.

I think it's a lie. So your case was pretty much great. Pretty much. But you know what it lacked? What? A fucking murdered family. Oh my God. You're so

messed up. So bring it, Brandi. I'm gonna fill that hole in our listeners' hearts. Great. So I pulled my info for this case from Murderpedia.org, ABC News, New York Times, and the Los Angeles Times.

Okay, got it. Okay. In 1965, John List moved his wife, Helen, daughter, Patricia, sons, John Jr., and Frederick, along with his mother, Alma, into a 19-room Victorian mansion known as Breeze Knoll in the affluent New Jersey suburb Westfield. The sprawling home had three floors, marble fireplaces, and a large ballroom with a beautiful stained glass skylight. Oh my gosh.

stained glass skylight oh my gosh um the list family was the picture of suburban success and propriety john was vice president and comptroller of a nearby bank which in case you don't know what comptroller is i didn't it's not a term that's used anymore it's basically like a quality supervisor okay of a nearby bank. And his family attended a local Lutheran church each week where John even taught Sunday school. He was a devout Lutheran, had been brought up Lutheran, very religious man. I'm still stuck on the fact that they had a ballroom in their house. It's a fucking huge house. That's nuts.

Yeah. Okay. So they're living in this great mansion they're kind of like everybody's view of like this family that really has it together and then things start to fall apart john lost his bank job and a succession of other jobs. And by 1971, he was still leaving for work each morning. Oh, no. But unknown to his family, he didn't have a job. And he was just sitting at the train station every day, reading, napping, and wondering how he was going to pay the bills.

Why do people do this? I feel like there's always this story of the guy loses his job and he tries to tell no one. Yeah, so he was in a huge financial mess. He kept it going for a while because he was skimming money out of his mother's savings account. She had a $200,000 savings account. And by 1971, he had completely drained it.

She had $200,000 in savings? Yes. Girl, get you an index fund. Wow. Finally, with the prospect of foreclosure threatening to expose his financial failure, List made the decision that any father would. Oh, God. The only thing to do.

No. Was to murder his whole family. Oh, my God. Why'd you say it like that? Totally relatable. why'd you say it like that totally relatable that's right we've all been there we've all been there i'd hate to disappoint these people how about i murder them yes oh my god so on november 9th 1971 after sending his children off to school he walked into the kitchen and shot his 46 year old wife from behind as she was sitting at the table drinking coffee oh then he went up to his 84 year old mother's efficiency apartment on the third floor so

efficiency apartments like a little studio right so she had her own little kitchenette and stuff up there her own little ballroom sorry a miniature ballroom um so she was up there making breakfast he walked up behind her and fired one shot into the back of her head oh my gosh killed. Then he went downstairs, pulled his wife's body onto a sleeping bag, and then dragged her into the ballroom. Then he scrubbed up all the blood in the kitchen and that he had streamed down the hall into the ballroom so that when the children got home, they wouldn't realize what was going on. Oh, my God. room so that when the children got home, they wouldn't realize what was going on. Oh, my God. He then went to the post office to stop the family's mail.

Yep. Then to the bank where he cashed his mother's savings bonds, and he took extra time to make sure they got the interest right down to the penny. Might as well. Wow. might as well yeah um wow after returning home he made several calls to explain that the family was going to north carolina to visit his wife's ailing mother and that they would be gone for an extended amount of time he also canceled the newspaper and milk deliveries he wanted to ensure that no one would be coming to the house or wondering where the family was for quite some time. Then he sat down and ate lunch at the same table where he'd shot his wife hours before.

Good God. He later said, I was hungry. That's just the way it was. Yeah. He'd worked up quite an appetite yeah okay just as john was wondering how to handle patricia and john jr coming home from school at the same time so frederick his other son worked an afternoon job so he knew how he was going to handle it what what the hell is that well he wasn't sure if they came home at the same time how he would be able to kill one and not, you know, scare the other one.

Yes. So he caught a break. 16-year-old Patricia called saying she wasn't feeling well and needed to be picked up early. He went and picked her up from school brought her home and shot and killed her almost immediately after entering the home he put her body on another sleeping bag and dragged her into the ballroom as well next he picked up 13 year old frederick from his after-school job and knowing john jr would be home from school at any moment he killed him immediately upon entering the home and dragged him into the ballroom with the others just as john jr walked

through the door oh my gosh 15 year old johnny was the last to die and the only member of the family with multiple gunshot wounds later he revealed that when he shot john in the back of the head that he started to convulse and so he fired other shots to make sure that he wasn't in pain how nice yes after murdering the last of his family john again cleaned the house, then retired to his study. Why did he clean? He was like an obsessive clean freak. And so he cleaned after each murder and he cleaned the house. Yeah, I mean, I understand cleaning after the first few because you didn't want to signal to the next one.

But once they're all dead. Yeah, it was like a compulsion okay yeah are you saying this guy's kind of a weirdo and i should have picked up on that by now um i feel like you don't murder your whole family unless you're kind of a weirdo what if you're just a totally normal guy who hates disappointing people It's disappointing, people. So he murders his whole family, cleans it up, and then retires to his study to write a five-page confession letter addressed to his church pastor. After finishing his letter, John ate a quiet dinner alone, cleaned and dried his dishes, fed the children's pet fish. What? And then went to bed.

The day after the killings, List scoured the house for family photographs, tearing his face out of them so that the police would have nothing to use in a wanted poster. Oh, my God. to use in a wanted poster oh my god then just before leaving breeze null for good he turned down the thermostat put classical music on the intercom system that would loop over and over until it was physically turned off and turned on every light in the house to make people think that someone was home yeah so neighbor said each night the house was lit up by a christmas tree and by early december they noticed that the lights were starting to go out one by one they were burning out from being left on for so long oh man john then drove to john f kennedy international airport in new york where he left his car as a false lead and then took a bus into the city. Police would not find the bodies for another 28 days.

Oh. And by that time, John was long gone. I bet so. He had done a really good job of making sure no one would be checking up on the family. He was a pretty smart guy. He had really thought it through. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, he had a lot of time. He was going to the bus stop every day and just hanging out. Yeah. The train station. Train station. Excuse me. Excuse me. He wasn't just napping at the bus stop.

Like some hooligan. then on december 7th 1971 two of the directors at a local acting studio where patricia was a budding actress went to the list house as they had grown suspicious about the family's prolonged absence so they later said that they thought john was really weird they'd met him a couple times and just had gotten a bad feeling about it and so one of these directors just could not shake the feeling that something was wrong when they were gone for so long wow and so they went to the house did um did John say anything to the kids school? Yeah. Called the school.

Okay. Called the acting studio. Called. And was like, hey, we're going on this trip to North Carolina. Yeah. Okay. He called everybody. Yeah.

But these directors were still like, okay, this is a really long time and this seems pretty sketchy. Yeah. Okay. Because a month has gone by pretty sketchy. Yeah. Okay. Because a month has gone by at this point. Yeah. And so almost a month, just shy of a month. So they go to the house and they're like wandering around the property trying to look in windows and a neighbor sees them. Uh-huh.

So the neighbor calls the police. Yeah, because I'm sure this is a super nice neighborhood. Super nice neighborhood. They don't want people creeping on the houses. Yeah, it's like starting to get dark out. And so they're like, okay, this looks sketch. And so the neighbors call the police. Oh, my gosh.

Police arrive, make entry into the home, and make the grisly discovery in the ballroom. The classical music was still playing through the intercom system in the house when the police made entry into the home. The bodies, it appears, were pretty well preserved because he had turned the thermostat down. Yeah. I've seen the crime scene photos. Oh, God. You have?

Yeah. I wanted to see what the ballroom looked like. I want to see. Do you mind if we pause? I want to see this house. Okay. John List House. Wow.

So you got to see like the aerial view. Because I feel like the front view is nice. But then once you see. Yeah. I mean. Oh, my. Okay. You're right. the aerial view because I feel like the front view is nice. But then once you see. Yeah. Oh, my. OK, you're right. The aerial view is.

Yeah. Oh, just stumbled onto the crime scene. Yeah. They're like right there available for you. You don't have to look hard for them. Gosh, that's terrible. Yeah. OK.

Sorry. Continue. OK. okay sorry continue okay so police come to the home make the discovery and a nationwide manhunt was launched yep police investigated hundreds of leads without success in fact for the next 18 years no viable trace of John List could be found. Wow. He seemed to have vanished off the face of the earth. Oh, my gosh.

I think that's nuts. He had such a head start, though. Yeah, but even then, I feel like it would be hard because... i agree because then how do you make money how do you without a social security number i mean okay you're you're making faces like just shut up and i'll tell you so i'll shut up so 18 years go by they've checked out every lead. Nothing is helping. The case has gone completely cold. So in 1989, the authorities approached the producers of America's Most Wanted. At the time, America's Most Wanted was a pretty new program.

It had only been around for a year or two. Okay. But it had been able to catch a lot of fugitives because it involved viewers, people all over the country who could, you know, call in and give a tip about something they had seen, someone they'd seen. And it was super successful. Did you watch the show? Yeah.

Yeah. I used to watch the show all the time. Yeah. Um, this was the oldest case that America's Most Wanted had ever covered. And they did something pretty revolutionary. The television program included an age-progressed clay bust of what List would look like at his current age of 63. The man who created the bust of the aging fugitive was forensic artist Frank Bender. Bender had previously had great success in helping to capture aging fugitives and

identifying decomposed bodies by creating these sculptures. Wow. I can't even wrap my brain around this. It is nuts. Maybe because I don't have a speck of artistic talent. Here's what the stick figure would look like today. Exactly. But this is nuts. So Bender's work was part art, part forensic science. To imagine what an aging list would look like, he consulted a forensic psychologist and created a psychological profile of the man. Then he looked at photos of List's parents and predicted what he would look like as he aged. He gave him a receding hairline and sagging jowls.

Bender was particularly lauded for one final touch he added to his completed artwork. It was a pair of glasses. Bender professed that List would not be vain enough to wear contact lenses. However, he said List would have worn a pair of glasses different from those he wore before the murders. He said they would be a pair of dark, thick framed glasses. And Bender and the psychologist theorized that List would wear these in order to kind of hide. This would be his disguise. He would disguise the fact that he was a failure, and it would make him appear more important than he really was. Wow. Yes. This is brilliant.

Yes. So the show aired. Hundreds of tips flooded in. Sure. Including one about a man named Robert Clark who lived in Virginia. Eleven days later,

FBI agents went to the accounting firm where Clark worked in Richmond and took him in for questioning. Robert Clark looked remarkably similar to the Clay bust featured on TV, but he vehemently denied being the fugitive murderer. Sure. Clark's fingerprints, however, could not be denied. Without a doubt, Robert Clark was John List. Oh my God. Yes.

When List was arrested, he was wearing the exact type of glasses Bender had predicted. This is brilliant. That is fucking insane to me. But it's so true because yes um an older man has very little he can do to disguise himself uh-huh but changing your glasses yes would be a big way to uh-huh to do that but also i love to know someone's personality so well yes they're not going to be vain enough they're not going to take the time to put in contact.

Yes. Yes. He's not going to do that. Yes. Oh, my gosh. Crazy. Regardless of the evidence, though, Clark continued to protest that he and List were not the same person. In fact, he didn't admit his true identity until eight months later in February of 1990. List eventually opened up about the details of his life after the murders. After he fled New

Jersey, List first took a train to Michigan and then to Denver. He remarried and lived in Colorado until 1988 when he and his wife moved to Virginia for an accounting job. Oh my gosh. Because in Colorado, he was having the same problem. He could not keep a job. He just, he had all of these different accounting jobs, but he just kept losing his job. And I don't know the specifics about that. His personality must have been yeah it seemed like john list never missed a beat after methodically murdering his entire family

he simply moved on and started over new city new job new wife list even caught the tail end of the America's Most Wanted episode with his wife, who did not know his past. Well, of course. He later remembered, I was perspiring like anything, but said his wife did not seem to recognize him. You would never suspect that. Nope. You would never suspect it. It was their neighbor, though from denver that did recognize him and gave the tip wow yes yeah it would have to be it would have to be someone from a distance kind

of like the the theater directors yeah i'm like that guy's a weirdo yep i've always thought he was a weirdo now oh my gosh are you hungry christian yeah did you hear my stomach growl normally i eat before you come over but today today well i was so busy working on my ponytail that you it is on point thank you thank you i always worry you coming over here judge your hair why wouldn't you judge my hair why would i care i just just me i judge people's writing you've got to judge people's hair i feel like you're you're being a little silly right now this is a casual setting you can wear your hair however the fuck you want to wear it please do not air pressure when i come over well i know i can wear my hair however i want to wear it but i feel like you know brandy's coming over

the other thing is when you work from home and like someone's coming over it's like oh time to put on my ball gown you know like time to let me take off my bathroom for the first time in two days back to the murder kristin excuse me so denver neighbor is the one who's the one who called in the team and luckily the denver neighbor i guess knew that they moved to virginia yes and they like the FBI, like staked him out for a while before they went in. Really? But it only took 11 days from the airing of the episode to his arrest. That's how effective it was. That's incredibly effective.

But I'm wondering with a stakeout like that yeah what are you looking for exactly i guess just to make sure that it's the right person but all you're really you can do at that point is like just look at him and be like sure looks like you're right yeah i don't know okay finally in march of 1990 john list went on trial he was charged with five counts of first degree murder in pre-trial motions lists criminal defense attorney argued that the confession letter to his pastor should be kept confidential and not used as evidence in his trial but the judge ruled that the letter was admissible as evidence admissible i think i said admissible

was admissible as evidence and when it was read at trial my mind leapt off to what's the definition of a miss a pole and i'm thinking like exotic stripper yes that's when she goes she jumps for the pole lands into the crowd yes an unintentional stage so the judge ruled that the letter was admissible as evidence and when it was read at trial it painted

quite the picture of the motivation behind the murders so I'm gonna read you part of the confession oh my god go do it dear pastor so-and-so I think it's rowinkle but I'm going to read you part of the confession letter. Oh, my God. Go. Do it. Dear Pastor so-and-so, I think it's rowinkle, but I'm not positive. R-E-H-W-I-N-K-E-L.

Oh, geez. I am sorry to add this additional burden to your work. I know that what's been done is wrong from all that I've been taught and that any reasons that I might give will not make it right. But you are the one person that I know that while not condoning this will at least possibly understand why I felt I had to do this. One, I wasn't earning anywhere near enough to support us. Everything I tried seemed to fall to pieces. True, we could have gone bankrupt and maybe gone on welfare. Two.

But that brings me to my next point. Oh, my God. Knowing the type of location that one would have to live in, plus the environment for the children, plus the effect of them knowing they were on welfare was just more than i thought they could and should endure dude no it's better to murder them than have them be on welfare well and i'm sure the wife could have gotten it i mean that's that's ridiculous that is totally ridiculous it's not live in a massive mansion or go on welfare.

Maybe you could just live in a modest home and both of you work. I know they were willing to cut back, but this involved a lot more than that. Three. With Pat being so determined to get into acting, I was also fearful as what that might do to her continuing to be Christian. I'm sure it wouldn't have helped. Oh my God. Four.

Also, with Helen not going to church, I knew that this would harm the children eventually in their attendance. I had continued to hope that she would begin to come to church soon, but when I mentioned to her that Mr. Jutz, no idea who that is, wanted to pay her an elder's call, she just blew up and said she wanted her name taken off of the church rolls. Again, this could only have an adverse result for the children's continued attendance. Hey, Pastor, I did the right thing here, and I know you're going to be on my side. So that's the sum of it. If any one of these had been the condition, we might have pulled through.

But this was just too much. At least I'm certain that all have gone to heaven now. If things have gone on, who knows if this would be the case. Oh, whoa. Of course, mother got involved because doing what I did to my family would have been a tremendous shock to her at this age. Therefore, knowing that she is also a Christian, I felt it best that she be relieved

of the troubles of this world that would have hit her. After it was all over, I said some prayers for them all from the hymn book. That was the least that I could do. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. What the fuck? That was the least I could do? Yeah, I'd say so.

I'd say so. That was the least i could do originally i had planned this for november 1st all saints day but travel arrangements were delayed i thought it would be an appropriate day for them to go to heaven so i'm going to interrupt his confession here to say one of the neighbors told this story that i came upon before i came upon this confession letter okay i was like well that makes that even creepier so apparently john list was super controlling about his family and who he let his kids have over like he rarely allowed them to have friends over he was very selective about what friends they could have because he was this super hardcore like christian guy whatever and so halloween 1971 october 31st the day before all saints day he let them have a halloween party in the ballroom okay and so this neighbor noted that you know all

of the neighbors came and the kids' friends came. Everybody was dressed in costume. Everybody was drinking and there was music and was having a great time. And even Helen was having a great time. And then John List stood in the corner of the ballroom in his business suit, just like this blank look on his face or even this like detesting look on his face. Just observing everybody's debauchery basically. So he's trying to justify it in his head.

Cause he was planning to kill him the next day. He's like, look at all of them. Yeah. Yes. Save them from this. Yes. Yuck.

Yeah. Back to the confession letter. Okay. What number are we on now? He stopped the numbering by now. Oh, okay. He made his point. As for me, please let me be dropped from the congregation roles.

I leave myself in the hand of God's justice and mercy. I don't doubt that he is able to help us. Oh, it's Jesus' fault. It's Jesus' fault. So did they put Jesus on America's Most Wanted, too? Here are the glasses Jesus would be wearing. we think he'd get a new robe god didn't answer his prayers this makes me think that perhaps it was for the best as far as the children's souls are concerned i know that many will only look at the additional years that they could have lived but if finally they were no longer Christians, what would be gained?

Goodness gracious. Also, I'm sure many will say, how could anyone do such a horrible thing? Yes, yes, many will say that. My only answer is it isn't easy and was done only after much thought. answer is it isn't easy and was done only after much thought. One other thing. It may seem cowardly to have always shot from behind, but I didn't want any of them to know even at the last second that I had to do this to them. Please remember me in your prayers. I will need them. I'm only concerned with making my peace with God, and of this I am assured because of Christ dying even for me.

P.S. Oh, no. No. What? Mother is in the hallway in the attic, third floor. She was too heavy to move. Oh. John.

First of all, I love that he put a P.S. in before he had signed it. Maybe that's why he kept getting fired. Like, he didn't know, like, the basics of writing a letter. Oh, my God. So, this, it was known that this letter was found when the bodies were found, but at his trial was the first time it was made public. That letter is disgusting and unreal. Yes.

Yeah. Please remember me in your prayers. yeah please remember me in your prayers to me it's this is kind of god's fault yeah um my entire family they were gonna go down the wrong way you know it's just none of it is i saved my family from themselves yeah yeah i'm i'm which i guess maybe you have to have that mindset if you're going to kill your whole family right you have to be like well this isn't really on me and this is kind of a good thing that i'm doing yeah yeah so at trial a psychiatrist testified that john saw only two choices when financial and health problems burdened his family in 1971. Go on welfare or kill his wife, three children, and his mother to send their souls to heaven.

The psychiatrist, Dr. Sheldon Miller, said, in his mind, because he loved them, he chose to kill. To allow his family to go on welfare would open them to ridicule, show that Mr. List did not love them and violate the teachings he'd received from an authoritarian father who taught him to care for and protect his family and never allow them to go on the quote public dole the psychiatrist said list suffered from an excessive compulsive personality disorder which i believe excessive so i believe that's what is now called ocd because this is okay

you know a long time ago yeah well not that long it's not that 90s yeah not 1990 okay um 1990. Okay. Um, and he had the condition in 1971. He described the 60, the 64 year old defendant as the protected child of rigid, uncompromising parents who saw value only in work and religion. Because of this list grew up without developing the skills needed to deal with problems as they arise. He knew only two places to look, to his father's directives and to his understanding of his Lutheran faith.

Dr. Henry Liss, a neurosurgeon, provided the jury with its first account of John Liss' marriage and how his wife Helen hid from him for 18 years that she had contracted syphilis from her first husband, a soldier who was killed in action. The disease eventually ravaged her, blinding her in one eye and causing brain damage and personality changes that transformed her from an attractive young woman to an unkempt and paranoid recluse, according to the testimony. Helen List had been unsuccessfully treated for syphilis at Walter Reed Army Hospital in 1947 and 1948. And it wasn't until 1969 when she was having frequent blackouts and falls at home,

along with vision loss in one eye that she told John of her condition. Oh, yeah. of her condition oh yeah she had when they got married she forced them to get married in maryland which did not require a blood test prior to marriage so that he wouldn't find out because lots of states require a blood test it i don't know if they do anymore but at this that time they did yeah yeah and so maryland was a state that did not require a blood test and so she had them get married in maryland so that he wouldn't have the blood test she also lied to him told him she was pregnant at the time of their marriage and she was not yeah that's well yeah boy so the psychiatrist then testified that for someone with Liss' moral, ethical, and religious upbringing, having a venereal disease would be a very difficult thing to deal with.

How do you feel about that, Kristen? Can you say it again? So the psychiatrist who testified at trial said that someone with John Liss' moral, ethical, and religious upbringing having a venereal D's would be very difficult to deal with it's seen as a lower a lower being a lower I feel like it's difficult for anyone to deal with absolutely all that burning and itching yeah but he would have seen it as something below his class again I think probably most people who get an STD

feel that way they're like what no this shouldn't happen to me I'm too good for this. A jury dismissed all of these arguments, though. Yeah. And on April 12th, 1990, they found John List guilty of all five charges of first degree murder. Good. At his sentencing on May 1st, List, who did not take the stand

during his trial, broke his silence but refused to take responsibility for the crimes. I wish to inform the court I remain truly sorry for the tragic events of 1971, List said. I feel that because of my mental state at the time, I was unaccountable for what happened. I ask all affected by this for their forgiveness, understanding, and prayer. Chris, in your face. He's awful. He's pretty awful. He's just awful.

He's pretty awful. No, I'm sorry. No, I did a terrible thing. No. Just forgive me. He did say he was truly sorry, but unaccountable. Yeah, that's not truly sorry. Senior court judge William Wertheimer, however, said that in the names of the murdered family, he was giving List the stiffest sentence he could.

John Emil List is without remorse and without honor, Morteimer said. After 18 years, five months, and 22 days, it is now time for the voices of Helen, Alma, Patricia, Frederick, and John F. List to rise from the grave. He sentenced List to five life terms to be served consecutively. The maximum penalty allowed by law. Yeah.

List appealed. On the grounds that his judgment had been impaired by post-traumatic stress disorder due to his military service. He also argued that the letter he left behind at the crime scene, essentially his confession, was a confidential communication to his pastor and therefore was inadmissible as evidence. A federal appeals court rejected both of those arguments.

List later expressed a bit of remorse for his crime stating i wish i had never done what i did i've regretted my action and prayed for forgiveness ever since when asked why he had not taken his own life yeah he said that he believed suicide would have kept him from heaven where he hoped to be reunited with his family list died of complications from pneumonia at age 82 on march 21st 2008 while in prison custody at saint francis Medical Center in Trenton, New Jersey. I have one last fun fact for you. Oh my god, I can't take it.

No, this is a good one. Okay, okay. The answer to List's financial problems may have been right in front of him the whole time. Get a job? No, he couldn't keep a job, Kristen. Yeah! Remember that beautiful stained glass skylight in the ballroom that I told you about at the beginning? Yes. It was widely believed that it was a signed Tiffany original worth at least $100,000 at the time.

That would be equivalent to $590,000 today. Oh. Oh. in ninety thousand dollars today oh breeze no stained glass skylight and all was destroyed by arson on august 20th 1972 approximately 10 months after the murders the crime remains officially unsolved wow yes that's uh that's good old john list i have a question about that stained glass okay did they move into the house or did they have it built they moved into the house the house was built like in the 20s so they they they didn't know yeah okay or they did know and i could see it being so something i left out of here because i didn't really understand the

importance of it when i was reading it is uh after when he wrote his confession letter he wrote a couple of other letters and one of them was a thank you note to the descendant of the architect that built the house so i really think he held the architecture of the house to some importance yeah and so even if he did know the worth of the yeah skylight he probably would not have well everyone knows god doesn't forgive you if you take the skylight because the skylight you know it can't sin and the other thing i think is even if he had taken out the skylight it would have been a temporary yeah fix yeah because i mean another thing is well he could have just sold the house yeah move to a smaller house he didn't want to do that nope and make his family live in

squalor they might have had to live in a 10 bedroom house oh my gosh the humanity i'd rather die for them to die oh that's awful so okay his wife yeah he remarried. What was the deal with that? She had no idea. I don't, she has not, from what I could see, she's like, peaced out as soon as she found out who he was and has not spoken publicly. You know, her family had to be like, we knew there was something up with that guy. That was sketchy as fuck.

Man. Yeah. That story is insane i love that story i mean i just the i think the glass the bust thing and the glasses because there's a picture of him online side by side with the bust okay i gotta it is fucking nuts okay john list bus picture whoa it is spot it is spot on i'd say the only exception is that they gave the bust white hair and john list still had color in his hair yeah but i mean other than that it's like spot on yep dang that that was a good one yeah pretty uh that guy's pretty sketchy to say the least okay you, you really... That's an understatement. I don't know.

Something about him seems sketchy. Maybe it's that he murdered his whole family. I don't know. Listen, he was sending them to heaven. Oh, yes. Redeeming quality. Before they inevitably went to hell. I mean, and what was he supposed to do?

Oh, such a good question. He was broke. He could... No other options. Yeah, that was it. That was he supposed to do? Oh, such a good question. He was broke. He could. No other options. Yeah, that was it. That was all he could do. I'd hate to think about myself in that situation. God.

Oh, that's messed up. Yeah, it's pretty messed up. Yeah, it's pretty messed up. So I hope that really filled that hole in your hearts, guys, that Kristen left when she didn't cover any murders this week. Yeah, listeners, I hope Brandy filled all your holes. What? Gross. So gross. what you're the one who hoped you did it you know i said the hole in their hearts kristin my mistake

you had to turn into something gross like this isn't a classy podcast oh this is a classy podcast super classy we've gotten talked about gobs have come since episode six it's been well i was about to say it's been a week since we talked about our last diaper murder um not true our last diaper murder. Not true. Not true. Maybe I can mix up the order so that we seem classier,

but I think even then we can't do it. Hey, but if you love this classy podcast, tell your friends about it. I'm sure you're wearing a tuxedo right now. Yes.

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head on over to iTunes, subscribe, rate us, leave a review. All right. Thanks for listening. And join us next week. week i mean what the fuck is happening is this our first time recording i have dropped the ball the ball has rolled far away

she's like she's like crawling under a car right now to get the ball back you know what it is you're so hungry i am so hungry i'm I'm like, what am I going to order today? Join us next week when we'll find out what Kristen ordered for lunch today. And be experts on whole new topics. Podcast adjourned. Fucking podcast adjourned. I'm so sorry. Jesus.

I mean, was that your stomach just now? It was my stomach again. Holy shit. You know what? Maybe it's a subconscious thing. I went to Target, tried on bikini bottoms that were this big, and I'm like, I know. I won't eat. Yeah, I won't eat at all.

Problem solved. And now for a note about our process. Problem solved! And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web, and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. For this episode, I got my info from the fantastic article,

The Strange Case of Anna Stubblefield, by Daniel Engber for The New York Times Magazine. And I got my info from Murderpedia.org, ABC News, The New York Times, and The Los Angeles Times. For a full list of our sources, visit lgtcpodcast.com. Any errors are, of course, ours. But please don't take our word for it. Go read their stuff stuff while we eat burgers