Let's Go To Court! - 217: A Chilling 911 Call & a Murder "Mystery"

Episode Date: June 1, 2022

Keyona Griffin needed help. Terrified, she dialed 911 and whispered to the dispatcher that she was in grave danger. She told the dispatcher her address and said, “he’s trying to kill me. He already killed my auntie. Can you hurry up, please?” Minutes later, police arrived on the scene. They didn’t do shit.  Then Kristin tells us about a world-class asshole named James Sullivan. Over the course of their marriage, James cheated on his wife Lita McClinton multiple times. The marriage took its toll on Lita, but after several years, she decided she’d had enough. Just when it looked like she was free, a stranger rang her doorbell. And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: “Hitman freed 31 years after shooting millionaire’s estranged wife in her doorway in murder-for-hire,” by Adam Carlson for People “Social Disgraces,” by Debra Miller Landau for Atlanta Magazine Murder in the Thirst episode, titled: “Palm Beach Princess” “Flower delivery turned murder,” by Victoria Corderi for NBC News “Sullivan pleads not guilty to killing wife,” by Bill Montgomery for The Atlanta Constitution In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “Keyona Griffin 911 Call” by @ominousposts, TikTok “Mother and Child: Jory Worthen/Derrell Brown” episode In Pursuit with John Walsh “‘Please hurry’: Victim’s haunting 911 call released as feds hunt suspected killer” by Susan Samples, Target 8 News “Double-murder suspect had ‘Jekyll and Hyde’-like anger, says witness” by Susan Samples, Target 8 News “Police 'beating themselves up’ after 911 caller found dead hours later” by John Agar, mlive.com “Charges filed in Grand Rapids double homicide” by Justin P. Hicks, mlive.com “US Marshals: Kent Co. double murder suspect added to Top 15 Most Wanted list” by Karie Herringa, Fox 17 News YOU’RE STILL READING? My, my, my, you skeezy scunch! You must be hungry for more! We’d offer you some sausage brunch, but that gets messy. So how about you head over to our Patreon instead? (patreon.com/lgtcpodcast). At the $5 level, you’ll get 30+ full length bonus episodes, plus access to our 90’s style chat room!  

One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court. On this episode, I'll be talking about a murder mystery. And I'll be talking about a chilling call to 911.

Ooh. Okay, poor taste. Yeah. I often start this podcast off in poor taste, and I end it in poor taste. Poor taste through the middle. You know what? This is just a bad podcast. It's what it is.

It's about time someone said it. That's right. Anyway, how you doing, Brady? I'm doing great. How are you doing? I'm good. We're about to go on break. Yeah, it feels like the last day of school before summer vacation.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, everyone. You're going to miss us so bad. Ooh. You know what you should do if you miss us? You should sign up for our Patreon.

Yeah, you should. Because we're leaving for a month. You won't hear from us for a month. For a month. And we won't be thinking about you at all. But you'll be thinking about us. That seems rude. I don't condone the way that Kristen is talking to you all.

I'm just the really cool one, okay? Oh, okay. In the boy band, I'm the cool one. It's kind of aloof. And you're the Trump supporter. Rude! Okay, anyway. Oh, my God.

Ma'am, is your phone going off? Is that what I'm hearing? Hold on. Sorry. I don't have my watch on today. Hold on. I got it. Check.

It's all taken care of. Good of you to, you know, join us. Usually my phone doesn't go off because my watch is on and you can't hear my watch going off. But I walked out of the house without my fucking watch and my engagement ring. Who am I? Trying to pick up someone new, Brandi? No. I saw the way you were looking at our waitress.

Well, here's the deal. What? So I was talking to David on the phone as I was driving to drop London off. This is so you knew I was driving a car. Yeah, everyone really pretended to hold a steering wheel just then. And I was like, oh, my gosh. I walked out of the house without my engagement ring. And he said, hmm, I noticed you did that yesterday too.

And I did. Because yesterday morning I got up and I worked out first thing. But, of course, I put my watch on because if I don't track my workout, does it even count? That's exactly how I feel about mine. It's like what a waste if I don't get those minutes. Exactly. And so I put my watch on but not my ring and it's such my routine to put them on at the same time. So two days in a row, I'm not engaged apparently.

Yeah, you're one of those freaks who takes off your ring. I don't like – I think this goes back to that whole like sensory thing. I don't like the feeling like if my hands swell while I'm sleeping, my ring gets too tight. My hands change size dramatically based on if I'm hot or cold. I think that was the O.J. Simpson. Anyway. My ears are bothering the shit out of me.

What do you mean? OK. Because you did that kit? I did do the kit. Is that what it is? Yes. Okay, because I told you we had a whole conversation about how you're not really supposed to put Q-tips in your ears. And so when I was here last week, you unboxed what I was convinced was a sex toy.

I'm always worried you're opening sex toys anytime I'm around. Literally anytime we get a delivery, Brandi's like, looks away when I open the package because I sometimes can't remember what I've ordered. And she's always convinced it's going to be a dildo. Just like every time. How often do you think we order dildos? I don't know. Not often enough that you need to be worried about it, I'll tell you that. Anyway, so I like looked into it and apparently, you know, you're supposed to

do these little drops in your ear. Yeah. Well, I don't know. Well, what'd you do this just now for? You stretched that ear way out. What are you trying to say? I was afraid it was going to pop right off your head. I want it to pop off my head. It feels clogged. It feels – anyway, this is not important to the podcast. Please tell us about a chilling 911 call. I will tell you about a 911 call. But first, I have to give you a disclaimer on this case.

There is almost no court stuff in this. Well, what the hell? And I wasn't going to do it. I came across the recording of the 911 call on TikTok on a page called Ominous Posts. And then I couldn't stop thinking about it. And so I read a bunch of articles about it. And then I was like, OK, well, I'm done with that now. And then I still couldn't stop thinking about it. And so I'm covering the case on the podcast. You know what? This actually works out perfectly because there's a ton of court stuff in mine. OK, great.

Wonderful. Some might say too much court stuff. OK, wonderful. So shout out to Ominous Posts on TikTok where I first heard of this case and heard the 911 recording that I'm going to talk to you about. And then also shout out to Susan Samples for her reporting for Target 8 News and an episode of In Pursuit with John Walsh. Oh. You familiar with that program? No, but I'm familiar with John Walsh.

Yeah. Yeah. It's an investigation discovery program. ID, as some people call it. Yeah. Yeah. It's an investigation discovery program. ID, as some people call it. Yeah, I got you. People who are a little more casual than us. Yeah. Right.

All right. Here we go. It was 1025 a.m. on Wednesday, March 13th, 2019, when a call came in to the 911 dispatch center in Grand Rapids, Michigan, the caller was whispering so quietly that the dispatcher could barely make out what the woman was saying. OK, so I have a transcript of this call that I've put together based on the recording that I heard on the ominous post TikTok. I verified that a couple of places. that I heard on the ominous post TikTok. I verified that a couple places. But I believe the recording I heard has been cleaned up and initially was not this clear.

OK. OK. Caller. I need help. Dispatcher. Hello? Caller. I need help.

Dispatcher. OK. Where are you located? The caller's response was too muffled to make out. Again, I'm not going to whisper for this, but this caller is seriously whispering throughout this call. Dispatcher, I'm sorry, ma'am, I can't hear you. Caller, I know. Dispatcher, are you able to tell me where you're located? Caller.

No. No. Dispatcher. Are you at a? Caller. 553 Sheldon Avenue, Southeast. Please hurry. Now.

Wow. The woman whispered a little louder at this point, and there was a lot of urgency in her voice. Dispatcher. Okay, I got Sheldon. What's the number? Caller. 553 Sheldon. Please hurry up.

Dispatcher. 553 Sheldon. Okay, can you tell me what's going on there? Caller. Can you just hurry up, please? I'm going to die. He's trying to kill me. He already killed my auntie.

Can you hurry up, please? Oh, my God. Dispatcher. Okay, ma'am, I'll start the police that way. Can you tell me what your name is? There was a long pause. And finally, the caller said, Kiana. Dispatcher. Who's the person who's causing trouble there? Kiana, please hurry up. He's about to kill me. Please hurry up. Dispatcher. Okay, I've got a call entered, so we're going to get the police started that way.

All right. Can you tell me what room of the house you're in? There was no answer from Kiana. And seconds later, the call disconnected. Mm-hmm. Seven minutes and 41 seconds after the call disconnected, three police officers arrived at 553 Sheldon Southeast, which is like a mile south of kind of the downtown area of Grand Rapids, Michigan. Yeah. One of the officers went up and knocked on the front door. He knocked like three times with his fist. There's some body cam footage

of this and then used like the door knocker on the door. But there was no answer. Tried the doorknob. The door was locked. Another officer was like on the radio and asked dispatchers to try and get the caller back on the line. But dispatcher said no one picked up when they called the number back. Another officer walked around to the side of the house and found a side door, knocked on it, tried the handle. It was locked. No one came to the door. At some point, someone looked through like a window and they could see into the dining room, but there was no one visible. A third officer walked around the back of the house and tried a back door,

tried knocking on it, but again, no one came to the door. They came back around and said, there's no one back here. to the door. They came back around and said, there's no one back here. Three minutes and 42 seconds after the police arrived at the house, they left without making contact with anyone. Wait, after that creepy phone call, they just... Left. Well, no. Right? No, you've got to get in there.

Nope. Nope. No one answered the got to get in there. Nope. Nope. No one answered the door. House was secured. They left. Oh, my God. Hmm? Yeah.

Yep. Well, fuck. A lot of good that did. No kidding. A second call came in to 911 two hours and 18 minutes after the police left 553 Sheldon that day. This time, there was a man on the phone. Sanford Cummings the second. Hi, I just murdered two people.

Nope. He said, please come to 553 Sheldon. There is blood everywhere. My sister's not moving. He said he'd come to the house. He'd found his sister, Kiana Griffin,

lying dead on the floor in the upstairs bedroom. Kiana had just turned 25 years old five days earlier. Kiana Griffin was the one who'd placed the 911 call earlier that morning. And someone had shot her

four times, including once in the face. The 911 call continued. He said, 553 Sheldon Southeast, please. It's a yellow house. Please hurry up. My sister's not moving. From there, you could hear him pleading with his sister to wake up.

He said, Kiana, please wake up. Oh, my Lord, please. Seven minutes later, the Grand Rapids police returned to 553 Sheldon for the second time that day. They found Kiana's body in one of the bedrooms

and in another upstairs bedroom, they discovered a second body. Kiana had told them that they would. She'd said on that call, in another upstairs bedroom, they discovered a second body. Kiana had told them. Yeah. That they would. Yeah. She'd said on that call, he already killed my auntie.

Yep. Police found Kiana's aunt, Sherlita Baber-Bay. Her family called her Cher. She was lying on her bed under a blanket, and it appeared that she'd been laying there watching her ipad her ipad was propped up on a pillow next door her she had earbuds earbuds were still in her ears and the ipad was still playing she'd been shot in the back of the head wow yeah back of the head. Wow. Yeah. I cannot get over that Kiana called 911. It was clearly such a dire situation. Yeah. She told them he's already killed my aunt. Right. He's going to kill me. She's whispering because she's clearly hiding from him. Yeah. Right. He's going to kill me. She's whispering. Yeah.

Because she's clearly hiding from him. Yeah. Yeah. And you come to the house and make no contact with anyone and you just leave. Oh, my God. Mm-hmm. Two of the four residents of the house were found dead that day. A third, Jacqueline Baber-Bay, was the owner of the home.

She was Cher's mother and Kiana's grandmother. She was located at work. She'd been at work since 8 a.m. And that left only one person unaccounted for, Cher's boyfriend. And he was nowhere to be found. Cher's boyfriend and he was nowhere to be found by the way

Baber Bay is like the coolest last name it is the fucking coolest last name her name is Cher Baber Bay I know amazing yes Cher's boyfriend

Jay had lived in the home with her for several years by now. So the news articles say that he'd lived there for more than two years. But Cher's mother, Jacqueline, said that he'd lived there for six years on the episode of In Pursuit with John Walsh. Well, that first one's not wrong. I mean, that's quite a discrepancy, but I feel like Jacqueline would know how long this man lived in her house. I am over two feet tall. I'm also over five feet tall.

Jacqueline said that the family only knew him as Jay. They knew very little about him. Like they didn't know his last name? No. This dude had been living there for years? Oh, my. They only knew him as Jay. Cher, Jacqueline's daughter, one of the victims, Jay's girlfriend, was really sweet and trusting but not social at all.

OK. Very shy. And Jay was her first real boyfriend. And she was, I mean, well into adulthood. Like 30s, 40s? Oh, wow. And this is her first relationship. Yes.

OK. Yeah. He said they really kept to themselves. They spent most of their time in their bedroom. Jay would come down to eat was about it. If there was ever like a family gathering, he'd disappear to the room, especially if anybody like was taking pictures or. Oh, God. Anything like that.

Yeah. Mm hmm. So in this case, the court stuff has already happened. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Jay didn't have a job or a phone or any kind of social media presence. What year was this? This was 2019.

Yeah. Okay. This was 2019. Yeah. OK. The only thing that the family knew about Jay was that he had spent a little bit of time in jail for falling behind on child support payments. This is pretty hard to pay child support when you're not working any kind of job. Damn near impossible, I would say.

Yes. It was actually that time that Jay spent in jail that led to police being able to reveal his true identity. While they were searching Cher's bedroom, the scene of the crime, you know, they were looking for any evidence, they found in her closet a Nike shoe box that was like shoved up in the top corner of the closet. And in it, they found a bunch of letters that Cher and Jay had sent back and forth to each other while Jay was in jail. And because he was in jail, the letters were addressed to his legal name, Daryl Brown. But he signed all of the letters J. All right.

They read some of the letters and it seemed that J was very complimentary, very – Sure. I mean they're love letters. Absolutely. Yeah. Very charming. They were absolutely love letters. Was he in jail, they're love letters. Absolutely. Yeah. Very charming. They were absolutely love letters. Was he in jail or prison? He was in jail. Okay. He was serving,

yeah, a short stint in jail. Gotcha. For the getting behind on child support. Right. Okay. So having his real name now, they were actually able to search Daryl Brown. They were able to locate a mugshot for him and they were able to get Jacqueline and a couple of neighbors to identify that that was in fact the man that everybody knew as Jay. In the course of this search, they also found some pretty good evidence at the scene. They found a box of ammunition that had been kind of thrown to the side in Cher's room. There was outside of the house, on the grounds around the house, they found a plastic Menards bag and inside that bag was a gun. Oh, wow. And they were able to determine that

that gun matched the casings that were found at the scene. It was the murder weapon. They also found the box for that gun in Cher's bedroom. And inside that box, there was the gun's serial number and its purchase permit, which included the name of the person who had purchased the gun. It was not Jay or Daryl Brown as he was – his real name was. As his real name was. Yes. Beautifully said. His true identity. Well, but I mean if Jay is just a nickname, people are allowed to have nicknames.

Absolutely. Absolutely. But this is not the case. All right. I'm just going by a nickname. Okay. It's an alias. It is an alias.

Just like Jennifer Garner. I never saw that show. When they tracked down the purchaser of the gun, it turns out that it was a woman, as I mentioned already, purchased the gun like in 2017 and had reported it stolen. I'm sorry. That's not correct. What? She purchased the gun sometime earlier but had reported it stolen in 2017. I don't actually have the purchase date of it.

God damn it. I'm sorry. This is sloppy. Yeah. it god damn it i'm sorry this is sloppy yeah turns out that same woman had filed a police report in 2018 saying that she'd received a bunch of harassing text messages from her ex-boyfriend jay yeah yeah are you trying to say he took this gun from her? That's correct. What the hell? He stole the gun and the gun was found at the scene.

It's the murder weapon. That's the gist of it. All right. The woman reported that Jay had been super controlling in the relationship. It's what ended their relationship some years earlier. And further investigation into Daryl Brown discovered that this was a theme in his past relationships as well. So when they're looking into him, they come in contact with this guy, Reverend Robert Dean. He was the leader of a Grand Rapids church, and he had actually come to meet Daryl Brown several years earlier when he'd found him looking kind of disheveled and rummaging through the church dumpster.

The reverend reached out to him, talked to him, and he learned that Daryl had no place to stay. And so he had offered him a room at the church in exchange for help with kind of odd jobs around the church. And initially it went really well. The reverend said that he was super helpful. He shoveled snow. He cut the grass, you know, did whatever. Well, yeah, that's such a great arrangement. Absolutely.

And it gave him a place to stay. The reverend said, I don't think there was anything quirky, nothing that would, you know, catch your attention. He was totally unassuming, totally mild-mannered. But three months into Daryl Brown's stay, the reverend said he got a phone call from a woman who said that she had been dating Daryl Brown. And she said, I know you're the pastor at the church he's been staying at. Can I please come and talk to you? And so the reverend invited her in and they sat down in the church office and she said she was currently in a relationship with Daryl Brown and that things had not been going well.

Daryl was very controlling and in fact had forbidden her to talk to any men, which was a problem because she was required to do so for her job. Also, I mean, it's just part of living. So she explained to the reverend that she was hopeful they could maybe have like a counseling session and the reverend could talk some sense into Daryl Brown. And the reverend was like, should she really have been calling this reverend, though? Well, he is a man. Yeah. Yeah. You'll see how much Daryl Brown likes that in just a minute.

So they're sitting there having this conversation. The reverend said she was very nice, great manners. And, you know, she there was a he could tell that she was afraid of Daryl, which surprised him because he seemed so polite and mild-mannered to him. Yeah, some guys are really polite to other dudes. So as the reverend and this woman are sitting in the reverend's office, in bursts Daryl Brown. And the reverend looks up and he's like, oh, hey, I was just talking to you. And Daryl is like a whole different person now. The reverend said it was like a Jekyll and Hyde situation.

He said, I have forbidden her to talk to any man. Oh, God. And the reverend said, oh, no, you didn't. And like told them to sit down. This is my office. You can't tell anybody what to do. And then Daryl, like, leapt across the room and went to slap the woman across the face. Oh, shit.

Yeah. And the reverend, like, jumped in between him and was like, absolutely not. You get your stuff. You are out of here today. Don't you ever speak to another person like this. Wow. Yeah. Wow.

He said, you leave this woman alone. Never contact her again. I love this reverend. All right. He said he went on to tell Daryl that he needed professional help. He needed counseling. And he said, you cannot run around terrorizing women. And Daryl was like, watch me.

Yeah. When the reverend then heard about this double murder in his town and learned that Daryl Brown was the prime suspect in it, he couldn't believe it. He said all of it he thought about was the woman who had come to him that day and asked for his help and how this could have easily been her just as it was these other women and how he wished he would have done more. What could he have done differently? What could he have done? I don't know. Yeah. He said, could I have done more?

That's the million dollar question for me. Yeah. I think he handled the situation in the moment perfectly. He protected that woman and, yeah, didn't make excuses for this man, which I think is very common for people to do. Yeah. So then the police went in to look into Daryl Brown's criminal history, and it included a 2005 arrest for felony assault on a woman. Not this woman that came to the church that day, not his girlfriend. No, he's been a douche to women for a long time. All kinds of women. We get the picture. Yeah. So get excited because this is the only portion of court information in this case. Let's go to court. They found court documents that said that Daryl Brown had brutally beat his

then live-in girlfriend. The court records say that he bound her with cords, kicked her in the face, gagged her, urinated on her, and doused her with lighter fluid. Oh my God. All while her four children were there observing it. And one of the children was Daryl Brown's biological child. Wow. Oh, my God. This woman was able to escape by taking her daughter to get on the school bus the next morning. She got on the bus with her and told the driver. Oh, good.

To just drive away. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's terrifying. It is terrifying. That woman then filed a report with the Grand Rapids Police Department. But then when he was arrested and when he had his first court appearance, she said she didn't want to press charges because she still loved Daryl Brown and didn't want him

to be in trouble. She said she knew he needed help and him going to prison wouldn't give him any help. It would just punish him. Ultimately in that case, the judge ruled that there was enough evidence to charge Daryl Brown with felony kidnapping. OK. But Daryl Brown took a plea deal and entered a guilty plea for misdemeanor domestic violence. Which I assume is like nothing. Probation, I think.

Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Nobody in Kiana's family knew anything about this. Right. Obviously. And Kiana's family knew anything about this, obviously. Kiana's mother, Anya, said, we didn't have any reason to think this man would be violent and certainly no reason to think he would murder our loved ones.

Right, right. She said that a lot of people thought that Jay, as they knew him, was a little strange. He was different. She was different. He was quiet. He was antisocial. But Cher was too. Yeah. And they just wanted Cher to be happy.

Right. And this is her first relationship. So, yeah, they just, oh, gosh, that's sad. She said, just because you're quiet and a little different than everyone else doesn't mean you're a murderer. Disagree. Anya said that her daughter, Kiana, though, knew Jay was bad news. She was about to move out of the house because she couldn't stand seeing him every day. Wow. She thought he was a freeloader.

Well, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But Anya said, you know, they kind of just accepted it because, like, we already talked about, like, Cher loved this man. Yeah. Because like we already talked about like Cher loved this man. Yeah. And they kind of just wrote off his oddness and the fact that he disappeared anytime anybody took out a camera and all of that. The family was shocked and devastated by the lack of response they got from that initial 911 call.

Well, yeah. They could not believe that the police came to the house, didn't make contact with anyone, and didn't break down the door. They said, you've got someone calling saying someone's trying to kill me. Somebody's already killed my aunt. Right. And all you do is knock on a door. What if she was tied up inside?

And couldn't come to the door. You kind of know that the killer's in there with her. I mean, that is ridiculous. What was the excuse? The Grand Rapids Police Department said that they handle it as they were supposed to. It was quiet. The doors were locked and they found, you know, no reason to break down the door. This is the direct quote from the Kent County prosecutor who was defending the Grand Rapids Police Department's actions that day. He said, there was no blood.

It was a shut up house. This house is very protected. You've got the Fourth Amendment. You have to get some pretty good reason to go in. There has to be something that drives them more than just a phone call, because there's people out there who prank call to get people. Unfortunately, we take and answer every call for service based upon the information that is provided to us. And we investigate those calls based upon the facts at hand and follow-up that entails. We simply cannot make entry into a house short of a warrant without cause. The officers did not see or hear nor did they have any additional information

that would suggest exigent circumstances existed for them to make entry into the home. So we talked about this a little bit on a bonus episode where exigent circumstance is what allows police officers to force entry into a home without a warrant when they believe someone inside the home might be an imminent danger. Right. Like a phone call. Like a phone call where they said, he's trying to kill me. He's already killed my aunt. Exigent circumstance 100 percent existed here.

And the thing that drives me nuts is, OK, I understand that there are people who might do prank calls. Well, they need to be in trouble for that. That doesn't mean that you treat all of these calls like prank calls. I also read a quote that like sounded so fucking victim blamey to me that was like,

well, Kiana called from her cell phone so we couldn't prove that she was at the house. Had she called from a landline. Okay,

it's 2019. How many people have landlines? Had she called from a landline, we could tie that call directly to the home and would give us

more cause to be able to enter it. Wow, the victim really fucked up here. Yeah. Yeah. They did go on to say that hindsight being 20-20, they would have handled it differently. Oh, would they? Yeah. They also said that the original 911 call was taken by a call center who then relayed the information to dispatch and then dispatch contacted the police and sent them to the address. And they said it's possible that some urgency of the situation was lost in translation. Well, OK. First of all, that's alarming that there are that many steps.

I thought it was alarming in the 911 call that they got all the way to the end of it before the dispatcher was like, OK, we're starting the police your way now. Right. Yeah. Yeah. The family went on to say, like, we wonder if this would have been a higher income area if they would have made a bigger attempt to make contact with someone. Yeah, you have to wonder that. You have to wonder that because this is ridiculous. It's ridiculous.

She said he's trying to kill me. He's already killed my aunt. And all they do is knock on the doors and look in the windows and, oh, everything looks fine. And I'm sorry, but the fact that she's whispering that. Yes. Lends itself to credibility. Absolutely. God.

Absolutely. Absolutely. The family said police essentially gave Daryl brown a three-hour head start yeah to disappear yeah and evade capture which he has managed to do to this day shut up brandy no what the fuck ew where did this happen again? Oh, my God. Grand Rapids, Michigan. What the fuck, Brandy? Yeah. So according to the investigation, police canvassed the area in the days following this for surveillance cameras.

They called his name, but he didn't answer. So they were like, I guess he's not here. Yeah. Ugh. And they actually did locate several cameras in the area that captured Daryl Brown walking on foot that day. He was walking on foot, huh? Yes, he was. That's exactly right. He stopped at the Grand Rapids Children's Museum that day.

Really? Mm-hmm. Entered the building. He was seen on camera entering the building about 3.24 p.m. that day. Really? Mm-hmm. Entered the building. He was seen on camera entering the building about 3.24 p.m. that day. So several hours have gone by by that point. Police have already responded to the second phone call by that point. So he enters the building. He talks to an employee at the front desk. He says he knows someone in the building and asks if he can try and find them. And the person at the desk was like, no, you can't just go wandering around the museum. Also, I mean, what a freaking red flag.

Oh, yeah, you're an adult man with no children who wants to get into the children's museum. Yeah. So he spent— Not perv night at the museum. Yeah, exactly. You got to stay out. So he spent like 12 minutes. That's actually a joke from my father. We have Legoland in Kansas City and apparently they have an adult night.

They do have an adult night. And my dad jokes that it's called perv night. Yeah, because typically, yeah, you have to have a child to gain admittance to Legoland. Yeah, and they do have adults day. I don't know this because I checked into it before I had children. I just go up there all the time. I'm like, hey, I'm pretty sure I know a kid in there. Yeah.

And they always turn me away. I know. So, yeah, he spent about 12 minutes at the Children's Museum talking to the person at the desk, being told he couldn't just wander around. Eventually he left. And about 20 minutes later he was seen in another part of town. He was dropped off by someone. It was later confirmed to be a former girlfriend of his. And after

that, he vanished. Fuck. No sign of him. They said the most unusual part about this case is how he has just been able to completely disappear. But

because he had no phone, no social media presence, they have nothing to track him. And I mean, he must have a way of targeting and charming vulnerable women who will take him in. I mean, clearly, that has to be where he is now with some woman, right? Yeah. They said they believe he must be getting help from family or friends. Reporter for the Target 8 news team actually tried to make contact with his family. They tracked down some family in the Grand Rapids area and knocked on the door and a woman answered and told her to get her ass away from their house.

Yeah. I mean. Yeah. It appears that Daryl Brown has been able to live off the grid for years leading up to this. And so he's been able to maintain that. Yeah. Now that he has. What's he look like?

OK. Hang on. Hold on. Stop. I'm not done? OK. Hang on. Hold on. Stop. I'm not done. OK. I'm sorry. I thought we were wrapping up.

I'm getting there. All right. I'm getting there. Three years after the murder of Cher and Kiana, tragedy struck the house at 553 Sheldon again. What happened? The house caught fire and Jacqueline Baber-Bey

and her grandson Amarion Cummings were trapped in a second floor bedroom. Oh my god. Unable to get out. Police responded to the scene, or fire crews responded to the scene, I'm sorry. Oh my god. And were able to get the fire under control, but they were not able to save Jacqueline and her five-year-old grandson.

Oh. The cause of the fire was determined to be unintentional. The night before, the family had held a vigil for Cher and Kiana and had left candles burning in their honor on the porch. Oh, no. And it had started the fire. The house has since been bulldozed. God. Mm-hmm.

Oh. As I said, to this day, Daryl Brown remains at large. Today, Daryl Brown remains at large. In February of 2020, he was officially charged with two counts of murder for the deaths of Charlita Baber-Bey and Kiana Griffin. In January of 2021, Daryl Brown was added to the U.S. Marshals' 15 Most Wanted Fugitives list, and he remains on that list today. This is the official U.S. Marshals' statement. Okay. Daryl Brown's alleged crimes make him a significant threat to the public. So it is crucial that we locate him. Our deputies, along with our federal, state, and local law enforcement partners, are determined to bring Brown to justice. With a reward of up to $25,000 being offered,

we're asking anyone with information about Brown's whereabouts to come forward. The U.S. Marshals and Michigan authorities believe Brown fled the state after the murders and may be receiving assistance from family members and associates to elude arrest. Daryl Brown has lived in Grand Rapids his entire life, but he has relatives in Wisconsin, Arizona, Georgia, and Ohio. With ties spanning this far and wide across the country, we are broadening our search and asking the public to remain vigilant. He looks very unassuming and could literally be standing behind you in a grocery checkout line. Brown is 5'8", he's a black male with black hair and brown eyes and weighs approximately 180 pounds. Additionally, he has used the aliases J.J. Robinson, Michael Richardson, and Marcus Wright. Contact the nearest U.S. Marshals office, the U.S. Marshals Services Communication Center at 1-877-WANTED-TO or online via the web or an app at usmarshals.gov slash tips.

Online via the web, everyone. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. May I look him up now? Yes, absolutely. Yeah. May I look him up now? Yes, absolutely. Okay. And Daryl is spelled D-A-R-R-E-L-L.

So it's Daryl. It's pronounced Daryl. Everything pronounced. I thought it was Daryl too. That's how I read it. But all of the stuff I listened to pronounces it Daryl. Why is it coming up Daryl Brown, Leanne Rimes? I don't know the answer to that.

He is now shacking up with Leanne Rimes. I don't think that's true. No one's – oh, I misspelled Daryl Brown even after you spelled it for me. Excuse me. OK. Clickety-clack. Oh, yeah. He does look very unassuming.

Yeah. He's kind of sweet looking. Okay. His middle name, I assume, is pronounced Damon, but it is spelled Demon. Well. Yeah. That's perfect. Just putting it out there.

Are you sure? Is that his legal middle name? That's his legal name? I'm not making that up. That is wild. Yeah. Oh, geez. Mm-hmm.

Oh, I'm seeing this photo of John Walsh. Mm-hmm. He looks pretty serious. Yeah, he's very serious. I would like to point out that the episode of In Pursuit with John Walsh did not mention anything about the first 911 call that Kiana Griffin placed. It started the story with the second 911 call that her brother placed. Mm-hmm. I found that infuriating.

Yeah. They're sucking the dicks of the police. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. That was gross of me to say.

No mention of it at all. That she called them and begged them for help and they failed her. I wonder if they only agreed to cooperate with the show if they would have held that information. Maybe. Which is bullshit. Yeah. So, okay, I remember the question I was

going to ask. Do Kiana and Cher have any family members who could sue the city over this? So Kiana's mother is still alive. Jacqueline? Kiana's mother is still alive. Jacqueline obviously Cher's mother died in the fire which is just horrific.

But yeah I would think they would have a lawsuit here. I would hope so. I would too. Although the protection I know. I know. Hate it.

Anyway, that's the story of a chilling 911 call. Well, that was terrifying. I'm sorry that there was very little court stuff in there. But I could not stop thinking about this. The fact that this guy is on the U.S. Marshall's top 15 most wanted list. And he's just fucking out there. He's just managed to fucking disappear. Well, and the fact that there's like one photo of him.

Yes. I mean, yes. Oh. Hate it. Yeah. Woo-wee. Have I got a story for you. A murder mystery.

But you put mystery like in quotes, so it's not really a mystery? Uh, well it's just complicated is what you need to know. Okay. Okay, um this this this story

just buckle up is all I can tell you. Okay. Click. Shoutouts to the article Social Disgraces. Click. Shout outs to the article Social Disgraces by Deborah Miller Landau for Atlanta Magazine. Deborah. Deborah is a new name. That is. And it is beautiful.

If you're looking for a new baby name, try out Deborah. Also, Victoria Cordery for NBC News did a great article. I believe she did a Dateline thing on it. I didn't watch the Dateline, but I read the article. Very good article. There's also an episode of Murder in the Thirst, which was a program I had never seen before. What is that supposed to – I don't know.

But I watched it and that's how I found out about this case. I mean, I guess it's a play on murder in the first. But like, is somebody really thirsty in this case? It's about diabetics who don't know they're diabetics. Anyway, picture it. Atlanta, the 1970s. Hotlanta, as some would say. Oh, wow.

That was really cool. Lita LaVon McClinton was a socialite. She was a debutante. She went to Cotillions. Brandi, she's so much like us. Yeah. Very much like us. She grew up in a mansion in Atlanta, specifically Buckhead, which is one of Atlanta's wealthiest neighborhoods.

Buckhead? Yeah. Like the head of a buck. I know. It makes me think of a deer on a wall. Yeah. I mean, it was founded by a deer on a wall. Sorry.

Also very stupid. I love how I shat on your stupid joke and I was like, wait, I've got one for you. Buckhead is home to a lot of very wealthy, influential black families, and Lita's family was no exception. Her mom, Joanne McClinton, was a politician who would eventually serve in the Georgia House of Representatives for like more than 10 years. And her dad was Emery McClinton. And he was a big deal in the U.S. Department of Transportation. Emery McClinton, and he was a big deal in the U.S. Department of Transportation. I read his title, you know, all you need to know, big deal. So you get the idea. The McClintons had money, they had power, they were really well connected socially. And so it's no surprise that

Lita McClinton had it all together. She was beautiful and outgoing and super smart. She went to Spelman College where she studied political science. But her real passion was for fashion. Ooh. So after she graduated, she got a job as an assistant manager at a store called T. Edwards, which was like an upscale boutique. And one day, Lita was at work and in walked this customer. His name was Jim Sullivan. And Jim was really something. He was flashy but cheap and he was not fashionable.

What is flashy but cheap? You know, sometimes he likes to spend lavishly, other times he's super cheap. Okay. Ever met my father? I was about to say! Sounds like a little DP action! Don't ever say that again!

Jim wore polyester pants and he wore his dead uncle's underwear. I have to tell you that. Well, that's very disturbing. I was going to say, how are you just moving on from that? I was focusing on the polyester.

OK. I. What? Anytime I buy David a shirt and he likes the material of it, he goes, oh, my gosh. What is this? Polyester? Like as a joke? No, like now he says it as a joke, but originally he thought that was like a good thing.

What? David! What? Like, oh my gosh, what is this, polyester? I'm like, why are you saying that? Like, polyester's not like – Is this silk? Oh, my God.

Okay, so what was the explanation? He thought that was, like, nice fabric. But how on earth? I got him, like, a dry fit polo, and he was like, oh, what is this? Like polyester? This is nice. Yeah, no, Brandy, we all understand what happened. Yeah, his explanation was that he thought that polyester was a nice fabric. And what I want to know, David, please let us all know, is like, what happened in your life that made you think that polyester was a nice fabric?

It's like polyester is the butt of was a nice fabric. It's like, polyester's the butt of a lot of jokes. Yeah, it sure is. Okay, anyway, I mean, he also, David's never worn his dead uncle's underwear

that I'm aware of. Have you asked him? Yeah. But, you know, it was free. David would take free underwear from his dead uncle.

Oh, my God. Okay, David would take free underwear from his dead uncle okay when David and I first met he was wearing jeans that were like three sizes too big for him like all of his jeans were like three sizes too big for him okay I was like why are you wearing these jeans and he's like my mom's friend gave them to me for free. I'm like, oh, okay. Are we hearing that you basically gave him a whole new wardrobe? 100% gave the man a new wardrobe. Yeah.

Yeah. These are the facts. Did you buy him new underwear? Yeah. Wow. You really – you went top to bottom. That's right. Tip to tail.

I actually just got him some new jeans and he loves them. I ordered him one pair of American Eagle jeans and he was like, this doesn't even feel like I'm wearing jeans. I mean, if I wasn't looking. What is this, polyester? I could swear I'm wearing sweatpants right now. And then he asked me if I would order him three more pairs. I mean, I joke, but like to me there's nothing that feels worse than a pair of jeans. Yeah, that's how David was.

Yeah. No, I hate jeans. I hate that jeans are normal. I wish it was like, I don't know. I wish it was like as often as you wear a tuxedo, that's as often as you wear jeans. I wear jeans like every day. I know. You're a freak.

What's wrong with you? I love jeans. Why wear jeans like every day. I know. You're a freak. What's wrong with you? I love jeans. Why? They're so stiff. Mine are not. Okay. Anyway, that's not the point. Okay. Anyway, this guy wears dead uncle's underwear.

For free. Jim wore ugly glasses. What? What? Describe them. They were like the horn-rimmed kind. You know, it's the 70s. Yeah.

You just need to know they were very cheap. Okay, great. Okay. Okay. But he was kind of charming. Mm-hmm. He had swagger. Mm-hmm.

He was intelligent. He'd grown up outside Boston. He's going to bag hot Lita in hot Lana. Okay. Well, you are jumping ahead in the story. And for that, I cannot forgive you. He'd grown up outside Boston and Dorchester. No, I hated that.

He had that accent. That accent. He was older. That's actually really good. I know. I went to school there. He was 34 and Leta was only 24 or 23. Depends on which source you're looking at.

What could go wrong with an age gap like that? Am I right, Brandy? Yeah. Jim was a smooth talker. He gushed to Lita about how beautiful she was. He asked her out. And she said yes. Jim and Lita went on fantastic dates.

They went to dinner. They went dancing. They went to basketball games. Jim was super generous. He bought her gifts. Why are you shaking your head, Brandy? You're not happy for the couple here? I'm super happy for them. Okay, great. You save money on underwear and then you can splurge on dates. That's how that works. During their relatively short but intense courtship, Jim told Lita all about himself.

He owned his own business. He'd moved down to Georgia a few years earlier when his uncle asked him to help run his company, Crown Beverages. And then, like, pretty quickly, the uncle died. And when he died, he left the business to Jim. And his underwear. Yeah, I mean. is that in the will i don't think so uh the uncle's death was very upsetting for a lot of people including some employees at crown beverages is this a big company that sounds familiar does sound familiar so it was a wholesale liquor

distributor. It's not anything you've heard of. I don't think anyway. I'm very into beverages. Specifically wholesale liquor. These employees later talked to a

reporter for Spy Magazine and expressed that the uncle had died pretty unexpectedly. Did he murder his uncle? Hey, easy, easy. He murdered his uncle and then wore his underwear? No, no, no. That is fucked up, isn't it? Yeah.

They also said that he had been planning to amend his will so that Jim wouldn't get the whole company. But he died before he could do that. I mean, what are you going to do? So Jim now owned Crown Beverages and he was now dating Lita. And things were going great. Pretty soon, Lita introduced Jim to her parents. And they did not like him. They were immediately struck by his massive ego and his incredible arrogance. Great.

Emery, in particular, didn't like the age gap. With you, Emery. But there was no time for doubts because within just a few months of dating, Jim proposed and Lita said yes. Emery and Joanne cautioned Lita about marrying John. It was the 70s. They worried that Lita and Jim might have a tough time as an interracial couple. They might also have a tough time because Jim was a douchebag and Lita wasn't. It's called an interpersonality couple. Is that what they call that?

No, I just made that up. Okay, I've got a theory. That could be totally wrong. All these articles are like, you know, the parents were super worried about her being in an interracial relationship. Part of me wonders, is that just a lot easier to say than, hey, this guy's a big, creepy weirdo.

We've got a bad feeling about him. Yeah, probably. Yeah, well, bottom line is Lita was undeterred. She was in love. So she and Jim began planning their wedding, and one night Jim took Lita out for dinner and drinks, and he presented her with a prenup. Nope. Lita was a little stunned, but she signed it anyway. She was in love.

They were going to get married. What's your face, Brandi? Explain your face. Were they even engaged at that point? Was that the proposal? No, no, no. First you propose, then you present the prenup over dinner and drinks. Thoughts, comments, questions, concerns?

Yeah, lots of concerns, but let's move forward. All right. You anti-prenup, are you? Not necessarily. I don't know. I'm not either. Yeah. Yeah.

People say it's not romantic, but there's a lot of stuff about marriages that's not romantic. Yeah, absolutely. As their wedding date grew closer, Lita learned more about Jim. Okay, this is hard for me to wrap my mind around. But according to Murder in the Thirst, the day before they got married, Jim was like, Hey, okay, here's something you don't know about me um i've been married before and i've got four kids what yep so that was shocking he had four kids who he just wasn't in contact with, really.

Oh, my gosh. OK. Yeah. So they the whole family had moved down to Georgia when he moved down to Georgia. Yeah. Then the uncle dies. He gets the company. And like two months later, he either separated or divorced from his wife.

She moves the kids back up to, I think, Massachusetts, I assume. Yeah. And yeah, there you go. Okay. It's the kind of thing you don't really think to mention. No, I think you do. Those kids, they just slip your mind, right? I don't think so.

So that was shocking. But maybe Lita was fine with it or maybe she felt like it was too late to back out. That's kind of where I would lean with it. Yeah. Yeah, the day before the wedding seems like this train's already moving full speed ahead. The other thing that I think makes it complicated is if your family has expressed to you, we don't think this is the right person for you. And you have stood by that person and you're like, nope, I want to be with him. Sometimes that can make it even harder when you're presented with these red flags to just be like, woo, you know what?

Anyway. Bottom line, the next day on December 29th, 1976, Lita and Jim got married. And later... Later. Later. Later. The Boston accent sounds stupid. Mine. Wonderful.

Later, they moved into a beautiful home located at... Oh, shit. Hold on. You're not going to find good pictures of it, but, you know into a beautiful home located at. Oh, shit. Hold on. You're not going to find good pictures of it, but, you know. I don't fucking care. Give me the fucking address. Whoa. 1276 Nottingham Drive, Macon, Georgia.

You don't like a Robin Hood theme here? That's right. There's little tights. This is just pictures of the woods. I tried to tell you. And you told me you didn't fucking care. Can you tell us about the trees? You know what?

I don't have anything written down in the trees. But you know that when I did my Google image search, I was like, oh, God, I just love it. Because everyone, first of all, the houses are tucked into the woods, which I love. But also along the street, just lines of trees. And it reminds me of when we go to North Carolina. Okay. Anyway, some people care. Others are named Brandy. Lita and Jim did have some things in common.

They wanted everything to be just so. OK, so my opinion on this is Lita, you know, was into fashion. She was into making things look great. She'd been brought up that way. So I think to her, it's like, yeah, let's make the home look nice. Jim, I think, was more like. I want things to appear a certain way so that I can use it to my advantage socially. Yeah.

Yeah. So they got to work filling their home with the right furniture and they made connections with the right people or at least they tried to. Again, they were an interracial couple in Macon, Georgia in the 70s. Plus, can't stress this enough, Jim was a damn Yankee and kind of a douche. So people threw garbage in their yard. Jeez. Get a load of this. Someone, this is hard for me.

Okay, whatever. One of the articles said that someone delivered a truckload of watermelons to Jim's workplace. That seems like a really big investment for racism. Yeah. But a truckload of watermelons? Yeah. What's your fucking point? Right.

I mean, we get your point, but like— Yeah, we get the point. We get the stereotype that you're doing there. Okay. Anyway. But Lita stuck it out. She dealt with plenty of racism before, so she had pretty thick skin. So she kept doing her thing.

What? I do wonder. So okay, it's the 70s. Cash on delivery used to be a thing with shipments back then. You could place an order and you didn't have to pay for it until it was delivered. How do you

know this? I don't know. It's just in my brain. So maybe they did it like that. Okay, that makes way more sense because I'm just thinking like that's like a weirdly big investment. Yeah. Yeah. I would guess that they were able to order it COD and then, yeah, racism free of charge. Beautiful.

Okay. Yeah. Save money, be racist. That's right. Lita's career continued to flourish. She did a lot of charity work. She worked on beauty pageants. And life was just great.

Or was it? There were rumors that Jim was cheating on Lita. And I don't think Lita wanted to believe the rumors. But then one day in 1982, while Jim was out of town, a card arrived for him in the mail. And Lita opened it, and it was from a woman. It read, missing your kisses at Christmas. Sweet. So Lita hopped in her car and drove to the return address.

Yeah. That's good. Probably dangerous. Well, I mean, she went and talked to the woman and the woman was truthful. I mean, unless the articles just left out all the drama, it just sounds like the woman confirmed that, yeah, I've been in a relationship with this man since the summer. So Lita was devastated. Yeah. She confronted Jim and he was like, what? I would never cheat on you.

That's super angry. He's like, how can you accuse me? Oh my. You know, he gets all angry. We love it. So maybe Lita believed this. Maybe she just made peace with what had happened. Bottom line is around this time, Jim asked her to sign a postnup.

What? Didn't she already sign the prenup? She signed a prenup, but you can do a postnup. So a couple of places had this different ways. Some were indicating that the postnup was kind of stingier than the prenup. Okay. Another one, and I think this makes more sense in the timeline if she just caught him cheating, was that the Postnup was maybe a little more generous than the prenup had been. Yeah, yeah.

Anyway, she signed it. And in 1983, Jim sold Crown Beverages for $5 million. Wow. Adjusted for inflation, about $14.5 million. That's a chunk of change. It sure is. Jim was thrilled. He was like, woohoo, let's get the hell out of Georgia.

I'm rich, bitch. Basically. He wanted to move to West Palm Beach, but Lita didn't want to leave Georgia. Georgia was her home. It was where her family lived. It was where she was comfortable. All right. So Jim just ignored her and bought a house in Palm Beach. Cool. Located at? Okay, see, I already, I still have my browser up and ready to go. 920 South Ocean Boulevard, Palm Beach. It is beautiful. Oh, shit. Yes.

What the fuck? Nine beds, 11 baths? It is wild. I mean, it's a historic home. The Zestimate is $44 44 million dollars everybody it is wild the fuck all right so he bought this beautiful massive house which is right on the ocean it is in fact right on the ocean i mean would i lie I mean, would I lie to you, baby? Would I lie to you, baby?

He bought it without giving Lita a chance to look at it first. Although, could you really be too bad? 22,000 square feet! Is that too many for you? That's a lot! This place is massive. Oh my gosh. But the bottom line is Lita didn't really want to live there.

But that was too damn bad. Yeah. Jim hired a moving company and moved their stuff out there and started making new friends. He wanted to be accepted into the elite circle. So he did all the right things.

He played tennis. He took flying lessons. He hosted lavish parties. But Lita didn't fit in. You didn't talk about these palm trees at all. You know, I am telling you an exciting tale here. And you're just, like, still looking at that Zillow listing, aren't you? Well, okay.

Is there something you'd like to discuss? The Redfin listing has pictures. Shut up. Are you serious? You're just like still looking at that Zillow listing, aren't you? Well, okay. Is there something you'd like to discuss? The Redfin listing has pictures. Shut up. Are you serious? Yeah. Okay. I read somewhere that Yoko Ono used to live in this place, but I couldn't find that anywhere else.

So I decided not to say it, but here I am saying it anyway. Yeah. The Redfin. Oh, that's some ornate tile work in this mug. Oh, my God, it's beautiful. It is gorgeous. Oh, my God, this place is... Oh, my God. You know it's amazing when the ceilings are breathtaking.

Yes! God damn, this place is so cool. Yeah. It was done by Swiss architects. If you must know. I must know. Thank you. Ugh.

Whew. Whew. Shit. Okay. All right. You got a good look. Yeah, I'm good. So they're in this new environment, but Lita didn't fit in. She'd fit in just fine in Atlanta's more diverse upper crust society.

But in Palm Beach, she was often the only black person in these social circles. But in Palm Beach, she was often the only black person in these social circles. And often when she answered the door to her own home, people asked her if the lady of the home was available. Ew. Yeah. So Lita wasn't really welcome and she felt like people were kind of letting her know. Yeah. And she felt like people were kind of letting her know. Jim also struggled to fit in, but his struggles seemed more related to his personality than anything else.

But then he discovered a new way to fit into his new surroundings. He just left Lita at home and he went out and had affairs. Neat. So cool, cool, cool. Lita caught on to what he was doing. At one point, she found a blonde hair in her bed. When she confronted him about his infidelity, he responded by getting super angry and cutting off her access to their money. Cool. Yeah.

Good times. Yeah, she should be punished for that. Yeah. For sure. That was really just a fun thing he did. He liked to spend lavishly, then get really stingy. He'd tell Lita not to run the air conditioner in fucking Palm Beach. Yeah.

I'm sorry. It's fucking hot there. Well, if you don't want to cool the place, don't buy such a big-ass house. Also, this – OK. There are lots of stories about how cheap Jim was. Here's one that really disturbs me. OK. A journalist – what are you doing, by the way?

I'm closing the listing because it was distracting me. I demand your full attention, ma'am. Because I'm about to tell you something that I have not been able to stop thinking about. A journalist stayed with him for a couple days. You know, in the future. You know, time is whatever.

Time's a construct. And Jim was going to put something in the microwave and rather than putting like a paper towel over it or like a parchment paper, you know, whatever. He used the sleeve, the plastic sleeve that the Wall Street Journal came in. That's super fucking weird. To save money because that was free.

Right? That's so weird. To save money because that was free. Right? That's so weird. It's weird on so many levels. First of all, you probably shouldn't put that in the microwave, right? No. Also, that's not sanitary. No. Also, isn't that going to melt onto your food?

Right? Okay. Okay. Yeah. I couldn't stop thinking about that. I mean, here's what I'm going to say, yeah. I couldn't stop thinking about that. I mean, here's what I'm going to say, though. What?

What? DP, stop listening. I feel like your dad would do something on that level. Oh, for sure. Absolutely. I'm just imagining the time. I'm just remembering the time that we went. Your dad was on the show. We went to lunch.

And then we went to Andy's frozen custard. And you, Norm, and myself ordered, you know, little concretes and normal things. And your dad ordered a quart to go because it was the same price. Yeah, he realized that it was a much better value to just buy a quart of custard. And so he sat there on the bench. Just eating out of his quart of custard. See, I was thinking you were going to talk about the time when my mom, like, my mom had just had surgery. And so Kyla and I were over there.

Oh, my God. Well, there are so many stories from that time. But one of them was I remember I was in with my mom and my dad and Kyla went into the other room to get mom some soup. And my dad and Kyla went into the other room to get mom some soup. And my mom and I were talking and all of a sudden we heard Kyla go, no, dad, wait. And he had – it was a can of soup. He poured the can into the bowl. And then like there was instructions on the can of like fill the fill the water up to here and he only filled it up halfway yeah because his logic was that's the amount of soup she would

want to eat and kylo was like but it doesn't work another time a few days later i came by with some macaroni and cheese. And I was like, hey, you know, this needs to go in the oven, you know, 350, however many minutes. And so he's like, OK, can I just put this in the oven? And I was like, well, no, you've got to preheat the oven. So, you know, I'm kind of like, geez, you know, I spent a lot of time on this mac and cheese. I'm just going to hang out for a while. So we wait for it to preheat, put the mac and cheese in.

And, you know, we've been talking for a while. And then I'm like, okay, I'm going to go just, you know, take it out and, you know, have her many minutes. And he goes, okay, well, I can just shut the oven off. And I was like, no. And I was like, no. No. So, yeah, I mean, it's not outside the realm of possibility that my dad would use a Wall Street Journal wrapper to. Okay, anyway. Yep.

Also, Jim didn't want Lita buying napkins because you could get napkins for free at fast food places. This will shock you. Lita was miserable. Yeah. But she didn't want a divorce. Yeah, I think that's a pretty normal thing. You know, she'd seen her parents had a good marriage. She wanted to stay married.

So she started going to therapy, hoping to save her marriage. But it wasn't worth saving. Yeah. Finally, in 1984, she got Jim to agree to buy a townhouse in Atlanta so that she could spend more time back home. And, you know, I'm sure he wanted to cheat all the time. So, sure, go live in the townhouse. The townhouse was beautiful. It was located at.

I already closed the tab. I know. I'm going to have to force you. Okay. 30-85 Slaton Drive. How are you spelling that? S-L-A-T-O-N. I should have spelled drive just to be smart.

God damn it. That would have been so funny. Oh, yeah. These are cute. Right? Oh, I love this. I know. Brick.

Oh, that's so cute. Oh, just a million bucks. Is that all? Yeah. I'll take 12. What? Oh, gosh. It's like the

oh god what oh god this is beautiful inside it has like a chef's kitchen uh huh it has like a

like a professional style refrigerator yeah that is my dream I know that's very cool it's very cool

hashtag goals also appears to have That is my dream in life. That's very cool. It's very cool. Hashtag goals. Also appears to have a Viking range. Get a little choke out of it. It also has two-tone checkered dial in the entryway. Although, what the fuck is this? Is this just a bad picture? It has to be a weird angle of the picture. It looks like there's

no... It doesn't matter. It looks like there's no trim on the top of one set of cabinets, but I think it must just be the angle. We need to abandon this podcast and go full force into this. Also, what's this weird thing right here? Okay, look at this. into this. Also, what's this weird thing right here? Okay, look at this.

This is the kitchen. What's this jut out on this peninsula here? Like, why is it jut like that? I do not know. And why is there a wall-mounted TV right there? Again, I don't know. I don't live in this home. I didn't design any of that.

I do enjoy the copper sink, though. Did you check that out? I did check that out. That's nice. It is. It's very nice. Okay, anyway. But why does that thing jut out?

I don't know why it juts out! I asked you! Being back home made a big difference for Lita. And it seems... Am I going to have to demand that you – I'm looking at the refrigerator. Yeah, you need to close that, ma'am. Brady, I know you've got senioritis. We've got this one story to get through.

So being back home made a big difference for her professional fridge. Yeah. Viking range. Fuck, that's cool. And it seems to have strengthened her because in August of 1985, she was like, I'm done. Yeah. And she filed for divorce. And she was not sad about it.

She was thrilled to be done with Palm Beach, thrilled to be done with Jim. She threw herself back into her life in Atlanta. She got involved in charities. She hung out with friends, hung done with Jim. She threw herself back into her life in Atlanta. She got involved in charities. She hung out with friends, hung out with family. She started dating new guys. The only thing that sucked was Jim. Yeah.

Turns out divorcing Jim was about as difficult as being married to Jim. Cool. Spoiler alert. Jim has sucked this whole time. He's been sucking since day one. He was really wound up about the amount of money that Lita would be entitled to in their divorce. Personally, because there was some question about whether that postnup was valid.

You know, now with more distance from her marriage, Lita saw that she deserved a more fair division of their assets, obviously, and her legal team was prepared to argue for that in court. But that was bad news for Jim. So, you know, he started making up stories. He said that she'd cheated on him a ton. He said that she was addicted to drugs. He said that she stole from him. Wow. It got to the point that Lita's attorney had her take monthly drug tests just so she could prove that Jim was full of shit. Yeah. It was all really nasty. A lot of money was at stake. If the postnup was deemed

valid, Lita would get about $250K in the divorce, adjusted for inflation $636K, which really is not that much. And then, you know, different sources have this different ways. Dateline said that she stood to get a million if the postnup was deemed invalid. Other sources said she stood to get half of everything. Either way, the argument over whether the postnup was valid was really important, and it would have a big impact at their divorce trial, which was scheduled for the end of January 1987. Hmm. Oh, okay. Sorry. I was like, hmm, I thought she filed for divorce in 85, but yeah, it goes to trial

in 87 because Jim's a terrible person to divorce, so it takes forever. Alright, I'm... No, I'm caught up now. I'm with it. We're following along. So before that trial would take place, on January 16th, 1987, a judge had to make a pretrial motion on the validity of the postnup. The night before, Lita's best friend Poppy and her three-year-old daughter spent the night at her house just to give her a little extra support during this stressful time.

And that morning, Lita and Poppy got up, drank some coffee together. And at around 8.30 that morning, the doorbell rang. Lita was still in her pajamas, so she put on her robe and went to the door. And there on the other side of the door was a delivery man holding a box of flowers. No! Is this like in the movies? He's going to open the box up and shoot her and kill her? She opened the door wide. He handed her the flowers.

And as he did, she spotted his gun. She raised the box of flowers to her face. And the man fired at her. Twice. Oh, my gosh. The second bullet hit her in the head. The gunman took off running. He was a stocky, middle-aged white guy just running like a bat out of hell.

He was such a mess that a neighbor almost hit him with her car. Oh, my gosh. Another neighbor, a guy named Bob Christensen, had actually seen the flower delivery man before he made the delivery. And the guy was super weird. I mean Bob made note of him and almost said to him, what are you doing here? But kind of got a feeling like I shouldn't even talk to this guy. And then a few minutes later, he heard the gunshots. So Bob came running over to Lita's place and found her dying in the foyer and he called

911. He tried to make Lita comfortable but there really wasn't anything that could be done. Poppy and her daughter were hiding upstairs. But once help arrived, Poppy called Lita's parents to tell them that Lita had been shot. Lita was declared dead later at the hospital. Emery and Joanne were devastated, but they weren't confused. This was not a murder mystery. Emery immediately said, that son of a bitch did it.

And investigators were like, yeah, probably. But they looked into it anyway. They had those eyewitnesses and pretty quickly they tracked down the florist who'd sold the gunman the roses. And the florist was like, oh, yeah, I remember that guy. OK, apparently the florist had been super sketched out by the guy as soon as he'd walked in. And the florist was like took one look at him and was like, oh, God, I'm about to be robbed and was just shocked as shit when the guy actually wanted flowers. I'm about to be robbed and was just shocked as shit when the guy actually wanted flowers. Flowers, yeah.

But the florist gave the police a description of the guy and a description of the guy's partner who'd driven the car that morning. Investigators also looked into Jim Sullivan, of course. They figured he had to have something to do with this. But Jim had an alibi. He'd been in Palm Beach playing tennis, dining in a restaurant, in public, witnesses as far as the eye could see. Couldn't have been him. And yeah, his alibi checked out. He was definitely in Palm Beach on the day that Lita was killed. But Jim's phone records showed that he'd gotten calls from a motel in Atlanta a few days before the murder. And about an hour after Lita's murder, he received a collect call from a rest stop about 30 miles from Lita's house.

The call lasted less than a minute. Yeah. So this appeared to be a murder for hire plot. Yeah. Jim had hired someone to kill his soon-to-be ex-wife because he didn't want her to get any of their money in the divorce. Duh. Yeah. There was just one problem.

There wasn't a lot of evidence to back the theory up. Yeah. Common sense backed it up. But investigators couldn't find the gunman or the driver. They tracked down those phone calls from before the murder to a Howard Johnson or a Hojo. A Hojo, as they say. But the men had registered for the room under fake names because they weren't dumbasses. So that kind of sucked.

It's easier when they're dumbasses. It is. But, you know, investigators were able to piece some stuff together. Those phone calls before the murder took place on January 13th. And they discovered that on that day, Jim Sullivan had called his neighbor Bob Christensen and asked him, hey, what did you hear this morning? Did you hear any loud knocking? And Bob, who was not particularly close to Jim, thought that the phone call was a little odd. So he definitely committed it to memory.

So investigators decided that in all likelihood, these guys had probably tried to kill Lita on the 13th, but she hadn't answered the door. And so they came back three days later with flowers. And of course, she answered the door. And so they came back three days later with flowers, and of course she opened the door. So, you know, not a bad theory. Yeah. But it didn't really matter. If they couldn't find the gunman or the getaway driver, then they'd have a hell of a time trying to go after Jim.

Yeah. So they didn't. The DA was like, I'm not pressing charges. We don't have enough on him. Yeah. And that evening, Jim took his new girlfriend, Suki, out to dinner at a fancy French restaurant. That night, he wrote in his diary that he and Suki had celebrated with champagne and caviar. Eight months later, Jim. Yeah, so he took notes on everything. Wow. Everything.

Okay. Also, he wrote Pistol a little while earlier and Get Flowers. But, you know, I mean, you can write Pistol on stuff. Yeah. Maybe you bought flowers for his celebration. Mm-hmm. Okay. Maybe he was being like, oh, she's a pistol about his new girlfriend.

Yeah. Or he was planning a murder. Yeah. Who's to say? Who's to say? So yeah, eight months later, Jim and Suki got married and they were so happy together. They were also an interracial couple, but the folks of Palm Beach were already familiar with Suki. She had previously been married to another local millionaire, so she was already in with society.

So this was, you know, the match he'd been looking for. Yeah. So, you know, the years go by. Things are going great. Meanwhile, investigators got a fresh lead on Lita's murder. An informant came forward and said that a man named Thomas Henley had been at a bar in Atlanta on the day that Lita was killed. And he bragged about how he brought flowers that morning to a black woman and shot her. So police talked to the florist and the florist ID Thomas Henley as the man who bought the flowers that morning.

Wow. But somehow this whole thing went sideways. OK. Sources have this next part two different ways. An article on Oxygen.com says that this case went to court and a judge dismissed it. An article in the Atlanta Journal-Constitution said that was arrested, but the charges were dropped a month later. Either way, this thing with Thomas Henley is done. Yeah. The case was at a standstill and Lita's family was obviously beside themselves. But then three years into his marriage to Suki, Jim was driving his Rolls Royce and he got into an accident.

The accident itself wasn't a huge deal, but over the years he'd made a habit of driving terribly and just, you know, not paying any of his fines. What the hell? It had gotten so bad that in 1989 his license was revoked. Yeah. It had gotten so bad that in 1989 his license was revoked. Yeah. So when it came time for him to go to court for this new accident, Suki showed up and was like, oh, it was actually me driving the Rolls Royce. The officer must have been very confused. And, you know, that particular officer was not there in court that day. But later he found out about it.

He was like, no, no, no one is that confused ever. Yeah. That woman wasn't even in the car that day. And so yada, yada, yada. Jim and Suki were both arrested on perjury charges. Yeah. Jim was eventually convicted of perjury and sentenced to a year of house arrest. But he ended up spending most of his time in jail because investigators searched his house in connection with Lita's murder and found some guns that he wasn't supposed to have.

And in the meantime, Suki was like, this sucks. I'm divorcing you. And their divorce was pretty nasty. Uh-huh. At their divorce trial, Suki dropped a bombshell. She said that after they'd both been arrested for perjury, he told her that he'd hired someone to kill Lita. He said that in the Georgia countryside,

you can hire those people for nothing. Oh, my gosh. So that was something. Yeah. Or was it? It was still just the word of an angry, soon-to-be ex-wife. But, you know, they had the phone calls from before and after the murder. Those were proof of something.

And so in January of 1992, Jim was indicted on interstate murder conspiracy. Mm-hmm. Federal. Yeah. Ooh. Ooh. And later that same year, Judge Marvin Shube dismissed the case for lack of evidence. So Jim Sullivan was a free man.

Wow. Wow. Do you have anything to say brandon well that's that sucks i mean i get it yeah no they don't have they really don't have i'm surprised they went to court yeah honestly yeah lita's family couldn't believe it. He was getting away with it. Yeah. It was so infuriating. And so in 1994, they decided to sue Jim for wrongful death. And for that case, Jim chose to represent himself. Of course he did. Yeah, so that meant that he got to question Emery and Joanne on the witness stand. Great. Which, of course, they both said was just horrible.

Absolutely. Civil cases for wrongful death are always easier to win than criminal cases, obviously. There's not that reasonable doubt standard. So, you know, they had the phone calls. They had some notes from Jim's planner and a guy who'd gotten into a fist fight with him in jail told the jury that Jim had arranged the hit. Jim told him – wow, I said that beautifully. Anyway, you get the idea. And on February 25th, 1994, the jury found Jim guilty.

They ordered him to pay $4 million in damages to lead his parents. Jim appealed and won on the grounds that the statute of limitations had run out by the time Emery and Joanne filed their civil suit. Really? Yeah, so they only had two years in which they should have done that. But Emery and Joanne appealed that decision all the way to the Florida Supreme Court. And their attorney argued you shouldn't be able to beat the system because you're clever and fraudulent. Yes. Yes.

And in 1997, the Florida Supreme Court was like, yeah, that makes sense. And they reversed the previous decision. Yeah. So, you know, that was good, but it wasn't justice. Jim was still free and he'd been ordered to pay all that money, but he just didn't. Yeah. But this civil case got a lot of media attention. And as a result, a bunch of TV shows did stories on this case.

And then people came forward. Hold on. case. And then people came forward. Hold on. Okay. Sorry. One of those TV shows was Extra Extra. Do you remember Extra? Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. It kind of sucked, but I mean, it was an important program. A little bit like a tabloid program. Yeah. So that's how a woman named Belinda Trahan realized that she knew something about the case. Yeah. Like I said, somebody came forward. What's Belinda know? Tell us. Tell us what you woman named Belinda Trahan realized that she knew something about the case. Yeah. Like I said, somebody came forward.

What's Belinda know? Tell us what you know, Belinda. Okay. She watched that episode of Extra and she recognized Jim Sullivan. She'd met him one night when he gave her ex-boyfriend an envelope full of cash. Well, that is concerning. So Belinda called the police and told them what she knew. She said that her

ex-boyfriend was Philip Tony Harwood, henceforth known as Tony. What? Tony's not short for Philip. Yeah, Philip Anthony Harwood. He goes by Tony. Do I need to break this down further?

My God. Fun fact, Philip is not short for Tony. Wait, is that what it said? No, you said Tony's not short for Philip. Which is equally stupid. You said Tony's not short for Philip. Which is equally stupid. So investigators looked into it and they ended up arresting Tony Harwood.

And they called Jim's attorneys and they were like, hey, we're looking for your client. Have him come in. And the attorney was like, oh, sure thing. He's around here somewhere. Oh, oops. What? Oh, shit. He's gone.

So, yeah. He went on the run yeah so he had been living in costa rica um to avoid paying lita's family oh neat but he wasn't in costa rica anymore but you know the state still had tony harwood and they were like, we're going to kill you. And Tony was like, please no. And they said, fine, we'll offer you a plea agreement. And he accepted. Okay. Tony admitted that Jim Sullivan had paid him 25 grand to murder Lita. Tony pled guilty to voluntary manslaughter and agreed to testify at Jim Sullivan's trial whenever the hell that would take place. He was sentenced to 20 years in prison. That's pretty low. Yeah, it is.

Okay. Jim was still nowhere to be found. By that point, he'd been missing for four years. But the whole time, the FBI had him on their most wanted list. The whole time? The whole time. But everything changed in 2002 when a little program called America's Most Wanted highlighted his case. Yeah, John Walsh.

Is this the John Walsh episode? We've got a theme! We have a theme! A police officer in Thailand recognized Jim Sullivan. Turns out Jim was living in a luxury condo in Thailand with a woman. He was arrested and put in a Thai prison and somehow he got married to the woman he'd been seeing in Thailand because this guy is just like got charm oozing out his ass. Sorry, that was disgusting. I apologize, but it's just true. It's just the facts, folks.

Jim's lawyers got to work fighting extradition. So Jim had dual citizenship with Ireland and the United States and Ireland opposes the death penalty and opposes extradition of Irish citizens to any country that does the death penalty. Yeah. How does he have citizenship with Ireland? Through his parents. OK. But, you know, the Thai courts were like, nice try. We don't really care. Yeah.

So then he appealed to the Thai Supreme Court. And this time his lawyers were like, you can't send him back to America because that's double jeopardy. Because, you know, in 1992 his case was dismissed, for instance. I'm sorry. Are you angry? No. I mean, that sucks. Okay, great.

And the U.S. was like, yeah, in federal court, but now we want to take you to state court. So you better re-watch Double Jeopardy with Ashley Judd because it seems like you don't get it. Okay, so the Georgia Supreme Court had ruled that this wasn't double jeopardy. I mean, it kind of is, but I'm not mad about it. And again, the Thai court was like, again, we still really don't care. They weren't this flippant. But, you know, there's so much court stuff. We just have to move forward.

And with all the court stuff that was in my case. We're just chock full of court stuff. That's right. So in March of 2004, after fighting extradition for two years, Jim Sullivan was brought back to America. He looked terrible. He got off the plane wearing one shoe. What? I assume he also had clothes on.

Well, I wasn't imagining him naked with one shoe. I assume he also had clothes on. Well, I wasn't imagining him naked with one shoe. I'm just wondering what turn of events ends up with you losing one shoe. Yeah, I don't know if maybe he one foot got a little swelly on the plane. Do you think maybe he threw it at someone? I mean, who's to say? He sounds like a real douchebag. Yeah.

But also, you know, that's a long flight. Yeah. You can swell up. Absolutely. Pretty good. All right. So 19 years after Lita's murder, Jim Sullivan finally went on trial. Oh, my gosh. And boy, was it a trial.

The prosecution argued that Jim had killed his wife over greed. Lita was murdered on the day of their divorce hearing. He was set to pay her either $250K or a million dollars. I don't like the idea of pay her. He's not paying her. This is their money. Yes. Fuck off.

I'm the one who wrote it that way. I'm mad at myself. But by having her killed, he didn't have to owe her anything. They called Lita's divorce lawyer and a friend of Lita's and James, who was like, yeah, James was obsessed with how much money. I'm calling him James now. We're getting more formal for the trial, evidently. Now I've got my tie on. Both shoes on.

Jim was obsessed with how much money Lita might get out of the divorce. Yeah. They also called the neighbors who'd seen the gunman that day. Bob Christensen said that he'd picked Tony Harwood out of a photo lineup. Robert and Philip for propriety.

Robert and Philip? Yeah, Bob and Tony. Okay. Oh, my God. Actually, Bob's real name is Anthony. Speaking of Tony Harwood, a.k.a. Phil, he was the state star witness.

What's he got to say? Well, you know, part of his plea deal had been to testify in this trial, so here he is. Is he out of prison now? No, no, no. He's still in prison. Just a lot of time had passed. Yeah, well, too much time had passed.

Yes. Sure, but it's not that much time. Not that much time. He wasn't a great witness, Brandi. At one point, the prosecution asked him, did you agree to participate in the death and murder of Lita Sullivan? And Tony paused, and he said, to be honest, I would have to answer no.

What? Yeah. So the prosecution was pissed. They hammered away at their own star witness and got him to admit that he had a history of lying about this case. OK. They got a story out of him. He told the jury that he met Jim Sullivan about two months before the murder. He'd been working for a moving company at the time and moved a piano into Jim's home.

He said that Jim approached him and said, You know, I've got this wife of mine up in Atlanta, and she's just trying to take everything I've got, and I don't know what to do about it. I need somebody to help me take care of my problem. Do you know anybody that can possibly take care of my problem for me? Because I need some were going to say that he said, at first I thought Jim was asking for a handshake. What about that? Oh, yeah, the wife is away. Yeah. Don't know what to do about it.

I've got a problem. I need someone to help take. Do't know what to do about it. I've got a problem. I've got a problem. I need someone to help take... Do you know anyone? I need to know. You know what? I'm with you now, Brandy. I'm with you. Sounds like he's just a dude trying to ask another dude for a little help. Lend a hand. Need some Merlene.

Need some Merlene. But then Tony realized he wasn't joking when he received $12,500 in the mail. I believe this came in the form of cashier's checks. Tony said that Jim wanted Lita murdered before Christmas, but they couldn't quite make that happen. So instead, he and two friends went to the Howard Johnson and went to Lita's townhome and rang the doorbell at 530 a.m. And then were shocked when she didn't answer. Yeah, nobody's answering the door at 530 a.m. If I look out and it's not a police officer on the stoop at 5.30 a.m., fuck yourself. I'm not answering the door.

Yeah, no. Absolutely not. Absolutely not. No. So they came back three days later with roses and murdered Lita. Tony said that afterward he called Jim from a rest stop and said, Merry Christmas. Tony's testimony was so convoluted,

and the prosecution had hammered away at him so much that the defense didn't feel the need to cross-examine him. They were like, yeah, he was a mess up there. We'll let that stand. Wow. The prosecution also called Tony's ex-girlfriend, Belinda, to the stand. She was the one who turned Tony in, and she told the jury all about her involvement. She said that Tony told her that some white guy wanted to take out his black wife because she was

going to divorce him and he didn't want her to have anything. She said that when she first heard all this, she thought Tony was lying. And later, when he went to Georgia, supposedly to commit the hit, she assumed he was just cheating on her with some woman in Georgia. But when he got back, he said that their mission had failed because the guy's wife didn't answer the door. And Belinda said she responded, anyone knows that if you wanted to get a woman to answer the door, all you would have to do is take flowers to the door. Later, Tony told her that the job was done. But she says she didn't believe him. So to prove it to her, he had her come with him to a diner.

And that's when Jim Sullivan showed up for this part of her testimony. The prosecution brought a restaurant booth into the courtroom. And Belinda sat in it. What? This is important because no one knows what a booth looks like. You've got to bring it in. That's so fucking weird. Yeah, so she's sitting in this booth talking about how Jim came in with a folded newspaper, slid it across the table to Tony, and then he left. And when Tony opened the newspaper, there was an envelope inside, and it was stuffed with cash.

Jim's defense attorneys. So fucking weird. Jim's defense attorneys. So fucking weird. I mean, can you believe that this was allowed? Like, what a giant waste of everyone's time. Like, she couldn't have just told that story on the stand. She needed to demonstrate it from a booth that was brought into the courtroom. You can't picture it.

You cannot. They can, though! No. You're getting it wrong, I guarantee it. What the hell? Jim's defense attorneys were Ed Garland and Don Samuel, and oh, they were thrilled to cross-examine Belinda. They asked her for the name of the diner where this all went down. They asked her for the location of the diner.

How long did it take to get to the diner? She had no idea. The defense asked her on the stand, Mm-hmm. The defense asked her on the stand, you can't say whether it's one hour, six hours, or 20 hours? And she said, that's right. What? Mm-hmm.

By the way, Tony had said that he didn't get the money from Jim at the booth. He got it when they went into the restroom together. So, you know, little different stories there. The defense also pointed out that Belinda had taken a long time to ID Jim Sullivan in a lineup all those years ago. The defense contended that the only reason Belinda had come forward with this story was because she wanted to collect the reward money. How much was the reward money? I don't know that part. OK.

But here's how that part went. Defense. You understood that you couldn't get the reward unless someone was convicted, didn't you? Belinda. I guess so. convicted, didn't you? Belinda. I guess so.

Ooh. What you thinking? I mean, that doesn't sound great. Is this guy going to get off? I don't know. These are like the two-star witnesses for the prosecution and they're both pretty shitty? Yeah.

Yeesh. The defense argued that this idea that Jim had been upset about what Lita might get in the divorce was overblown. They also pointed out that the prosecution said that Tony had been paid to commit this murder, and Tony had said that part of that payment came in the form of cashier's checks, but the prosecution couldn't present any kind of records of those cashier's checks. Which, yeah, that looks pretty fucking bad. It's not good. They called Jim's former divorce attorney to the stand.

And that attorney said, you know, the divorce wasn't that bad. I've handled worse. Oof. In closing arguments, the defense told the jury, let's look at the evidence. And when you look at the evidence, you have to look at the source of the evidence, the essential worthlessness of the testimony of Tony Harwood. If you're going to uphold our system, you should reject everything that came out of his mouth. But for their closing argument, the prosecution brought props. They did? They rolled that booth back out?

Honestly, I wish they had because this is – this is – oh. OK. Picture it. Prosecutor Clint Rucker opened his closing argument by ringing a bell. What? Like supposed to be like the doorbell? Yeah, it's to symbolize the doorbell. They rang the doorbell and Lita came to it. Okay.

Here's what he said. I want to tell you something. It comes from a famous author. His name is Ernest Hemingway. He took a quote. For whom the bell tolls? Yes. Oh, my God.

For whom the bell tolls. When I thought about the last few seconds of her life, what I realized is she probably still had that ringing in her ear when the first bullet tore through her brain. I'm going to ask you, through your verdict of guilty to each and every count, to tell James Vincent Sullivan, for whom the bell tolls, tell him that it tolls for thee, for you, for you. And he pointed at Jim in the courtroom. for you. And he pointed at Jim in the courtroom. One of the jurors later said that it was difficult sometimes to not roll her eyes. I mean, right? Yeah. So the jury went into deliberation and initially they were split. But after deliberating for about five hours, they came to an agreement. They found Jim Sullivan guilty.

He was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. Oh, wow. Yeah, so the death penalty had been on the table, but, I mean, honestly, if I had been on that jury, there's not enough here. I agree. OK. And I've got other thoughts. OK.

This stuff on Tony Harwood. Yeah. I don't – I – now, OK. We only dig so deep for these cases. So maybe there's a lot of really compelling evidence on him. But what I was able to find was not super compelling. He really held out for a while before he pled guilty. And there's almost a part of me that's just like, was he facing the death penalty and super afraid?

Yeah, I'd rather spend 20 years in prison than be killed. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's funny. Because honestly, Belinda's story I think sounds like bullshit. Yeah. I really do. Yeah. I really do.

He takes you with him to get the money? Yeah. And the thing is, like, Jim's a smart person. Why would he see a witness there to all this and still hand over the money? Yeah. Better yet, why even do this in person, really? There's no paper trail for the cashier's checks. Yeah.

The other thing was – so Tony is from North Carolina. And I guess the police in North Carolina were kind of stunned when he was arrested for this because he did have a record. But like not for anything super violent and he hadn't done anything in years and years and years. And so the idea of him going and murdering a woman would have been a pretty big escalation. Absolutely. And also, I haven't been able to stop thinking, I think it's so interesting what is left out

of so many of these stories because it's like, well, what about the other people? Are we just not concerned about them? Yeah. And if you do some digging, you can find names. I mean it does seem like they had some idea who those people might be but not enough to really do anything. Right. I don't know.

Right? I mean this – Yeah. I think there's too much doubt for a conviction. I think it's likely. So I think it's totally likely. I mean, I think for sure Jim did it. Yeah. Jim was involved somehow. Yeah.

But there is part of me that's like, Tony, were you involved? Go ahead. Wow. Wow. There was a record of Tony having moved the piano into Jim's house. So it's like there, you know. There was some kind of connection between the two of them. We don't know if it's physical, mental, emotional. Yeah.

Hand job. Mm-hmm. Hard to say. Yeah. Hard to say. This whole thing making me so uncomfortable. So anyway, you know, Lita's family finally got justice. In their interview with Dateline, Emery said, we won the battle.

He's not going to make a mockery of the courts anymore. It's over, Jim. Merry Christmas. Jim never paid Lita's parents any of the money that he owed them from the civil case. So with interest, he no longer owes them $4 million. He owes them $13.5 million. He's tried to claim that he's broke, but they've uncovered through a lot of legal action that he has Swiss bank accounts. Evidently, their attorney was able to uncover that he'd been in Thailand getting angry with the bank accounts, the banks, about fees.

You know, of course. Oh, yeah. That sounds like your dad. It does sound like my dad. My dad has angrily taken his money out of many a bank. So they're trying to get that money, but their chances of success are very slim. Their own lawyer even concedes that Jim has no reason to cooperate with them. He said a judge can sanction him, but he's already suffering the worst sanction there is, life imprisonment in a maximum security Georgia prison.

Yeah. What's he going to do, take away his Wall Street Journal? OK, I've got some stuff in here. You know, again, I already said this, but, you know, there are some other people who have been kind of linked to this crime. Yeah. But nothing has come from about that. So I don't feel like. Yeah.

Their names need to be out there. I don't know. Anyway. That's the story of the murder of Lita McClinton. Wow. Yeah. Okay, so to me, that's a bit of a murder mystery. It is.

I would agree. I would agree it's a murder mystery. Should we take some questions? We should. From the Discord? To get in our Discord. Should we take some questions? We should. From the Discord? To get in our Discord, all you have to do is join our Patreon at the $5 level or higher. You get in the Discord.

You can shitty chat the day away. And when we record, we ask for questions and then we pick a few to answer. Everyone, that was brandy burping i think they were hiccups oh flirty harry asked would you guys live in a haunted house i 100 live in a haunted house kristin you do live in a haunted house that's not confirmed norman grew up in a haunted house. Yeah. Famously haunted house. That is confirmed. Yeah, I mean, I don't really, I'm not scared of no ghosts, so, like, I'm fine.

Colonel Sanders cosplay asks Brandy, have you learned what an orc is? No. I have not. Do you care to? No. Oh, man. Patrick Star of the Truck Clit says, any advice for getting over someone who led you on and was never really yours and didn't treat you that great, but you still fell in love with him. So now you feel really stupid for being so heartbroken, but also can't stop being heartbroken.

Definitely not speaking from experience. Oh, man. First of all, fuck that person. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Although,

they probably still want to fuck the person. Okay, no. Don't. Okay, don't. Not physically fuck somebody else. May we recommend a ho phase? Yes, I am here for a ho phase.

You are legally not allowed to say that. I ventured into a hoe face. You are legally not allowed to say that. I ventured into a hoe face. No, you said you were going to. Yeah. Okay, I'm going to Thailand. See, it doesn't work if you don't actually go. Okay, but I met a dude and I banged him.

I just never stopped banging him. That's what makes the podcast so awkward. Yeah, no, it doesn't count if you then marry the guy. Good lord. Need to get a real hoe up in here.

No, our advice is figure out what makes you feel good. You know what, for me, it is? I notice I always feel better. One of those Hitachi magic wands. Well, yeah, I mean, that is my advice for everyone. If you don't have that, what are you doing?

And if you decide you need to save up, you need to quit the Patreon for a while, come back. I mean, God bless. I'd never be more happy to see someone go. They put in their Patreon exit survey. I have to go buy a Hitachi Magic Wand. Enter promo code Kristen at checkout.

It will get you no discounts. Anyway. So yeah. Well gosh that is much better advice than what I was I was going to be like you know for me I like to you know work out read a good book do my skin care routine but no you know Brandy out, read a good book, do my skincare routine. But no, you know, Brandi covered it.

Pretty good there. Oh, making entry into the Discord asks, do you guys remember light brights or ever play with those? Oh, hell yeah. And I couldn't help myself. Yes. Okay. So I had a light bright. Loved it.

I always made a little Christmas scene and set it up next to the Christmas tree every year. And, gosh, I think last year my sister Casey got Jack one for Christmas. Yeah. I love that. They're much smaller now. They don't require, like, that giant back with a light bulb on them anymore. Oh, yeah. I mean, it was kind of like a little computer.

Is this a question that I don't understand? What is it? Brandy tries her best to understand, says Kristen, plotter or pantser? Oh, yeah. That's for books. Oh. That's do you plot out your book before you start writing or do you go by the seat of your pants? Oh.

I kind of do both. Oh, okay. So I try to plot it all out ahead of time. Yeah. And then I get into it. I'm like, well, this was a bad idea, so then I have to change it. You know, it's a whole thing. Also, I haven't written in a really long time.

This break, you know, pressure's on. Yeah. Great American novel. Here we come. Pressure's on. Great American novel. Here we come. Hoodies and Flippies wants to know, where is the last place you'd be caught dead?

Where is the last place I'd be caught dead? I'm trying to think of like a really young, cool hangout because that's not like – yeah, that's not my scene. Yeah. Let's see here. Where would Brandy – What is it? What? Is it rude? That's rude to myself.

What is it? Like – What? Is it rude? That's rude to myself. What is it? Like a... What? Like a bikini contest. Oh, God, that's terrible. That sounds terrible. No, that sounds awful.

Yeah, I also would not be in it. Okay, that's fair. I didn't know we were going to go, like, sad with it. I thought it was just going to be, like, a concert that I really don't like. No, I'd go to, like, any concert. I love concerts. Okay. Bikini contest.

Bikini contest. I'm out. Not so much. All right. Ew. Sealed with a Queef wants to know, do you have the nuts to put a slice of cheese on your cinnamon bun and microwave it for a few seconds to get it melty? I am not going to ruin a cinnamon bun like that. My God. Cheese on a cinnamon bun?

Absolutely not, sealed with a queef. No. You have offended me to my core. Yes. You know what? We weren't going to go on break, but now we have to. Yeah. Oh, the floppy did me in.

Solid BTK reference, by the way. Asks if you had to go back to school to study for a new profession, what would it be? I think I would go to like mortician school. Ew, you creep. Yeah. And then I could do both prepare the body and do the hair and makeup. You would be flagged for being too excited to be there. You're probably right.

Just like that guy showing up at the Children's Museum without a kid trying to get in. You'd be way too eager. What would you go back and study? What would you go back and study? I mean, is it cheating to say that I would go to like specifically to a writing program? No, I think that's – Yeah. I mean, I feel like I've already kind of studied that, but I just go more into it. Yeah.

Even deeper. I apologize for doing that. I hated that. The Ginger Snap wants to know what is something you think is completely overrated?

Colonial Williamsburg. That place sucks. Never been there. It sucks. Don't go. That's a place I think is overrated. I don't know.

No, it's just something that you think is overrated. Oh don't know. No, it's just something that you think is too. Oh, anything? Yeah. No. Mayonnaise. You were going to get first. Really just sauces in general.

Mayo and Colonial Williamsburg. Williamsburg. You can do without them both. Ooh, the Grace Kelly of not giving a fuck. What's London's second birthday party theme? Too sweet. It's going to be like a donut themed party. Because she's pretty sweet and she's two. So you get it.

They don't understand. They need more help. The Grace Kelly of Not Giving a Fuck says, Brandi, are you excited for Post Malone's new album and do you absolutely love Cooped Up Like Me? 100%. Cannot wait for the new album. Love Cooped Up. Love one right now. 12-karat toothache coming out June 3rd.

Very excited. Did I just name the album the wrong name? I have no idea. No, that's the real name. Should we do one more? Yeah. Oh, you know what? Okay, I'm going to end this with an inside joke for Discord.

Oh, okay. Someone asked me a secret question and I'm to respond in code. Oh, great. What's the code? I'm going to say the breadcrumbs are not hot. Oh, okay. Okay. All right.

That's all I'll say on the matter. Stop asking. Okay. Okay. All right. That's all I'll say on the matter. Stop asking. And now we are heading over to our Supreme Court induction.

That's correct, where we will be. What's wrong? My page reset, which means it went all the way to the top, and now I've got to DJ my way all to the bottom. All to the bottom. What? I don't know. Anyway, to get in tucked in, all you have to do is join our Patreon at the

$7 level or higher and we are continuing to read your names and your favorite cookies. This is a long ass list and I am just taking my time. Oh, here we are. Got it. Wait, are we on 217? 217. Shit. Okay, here we go. Okay. Steve

Lunny. Slightly charred edged chocolate chip. Ooh. Stephanie Malick. Chocolate chip cookies with tons of chocolate chips. Sarah Smith. Chocolate chunk. She said pronounce Princess Consuela banana hammock. Yeah, you should have known.

Deb Copeland. Tim Tam Slam. It's where you bite off two diagonal corners of the Tim Tam, then use it like a straw to sip up your hot beverage of choice. Okay, well, that sounds wonderful. Tim Tam's hollow inside? Well, evidently, or it's really difficult. You really suck.

Go, Deb, go. Lance Hewitt. Chocolate chip. Keisha Cole. Peanut butter Oreos. Julie. Okay, Julie. What?

Okay, Julie didn't give us any pronunciation help here, and I would typically say that Julie's last name is Braun. However, as you know, I'm a big Kansas Jayhawks fan and we had a player this year with this last name and he pronounced it Brown. So, Julie Brown, Julie Braun. Who knows?

I'm sorry, are the sports over? Frosted sugar cookies. Shell Courtney. No-bake cookies. Hogtied and horrified. Spritzabackback Plain Jane Snickerdoodles Lonnie H Snowball cookies

What's a snowball cookie? Don't you think it's those snowball things like the hostess things? You think that's what it is? I was thinking it was more like a I don't fucking know I was thinking more like a little round cookie that's got powdered sugar all over the outside of it. Oh, yeah, that's probably right. I call those Russian tea cakes.

Yeah, I think wedding cookies. But they're not cakes. People call them wedding cookies, I think. I don't know. Anyway, we should move on. Bernadette Mowry. Oatmeal chocolate chip. Sam L.

Salted caramel chocolate chip. Elizabeth E. Slightly underbaked oatmeal raisin. Carissa Andes. Ooh, definitely not the banana bread cookies with salted caramel frosting that I just made a hundred of this past weekend for my sister-in-law's bridal shower. That sounds really good. Hillary Callahan. Soft and gooey chocolate chip cookie. Monica. Alas. Alas. She loves pecan chocolate chip cookies. Welcome to the Supreme Court! We've got to wrap up.

I'm about to pee all over myself. Oh my goodness! Thank you everyone for all of your support. We appreciate it so much. If you're looking for other ways to support us, please find us on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Patreon. Please remember to subscribe to the podcast and wherever you listen. Then head on over to Apple Podcasts.

Leave us a five-star rating and review. And then remember, this is our last episode before break. We won't be back until July. So be sure to join us next month. When we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned. We'll miss you all so much. Oh, yes, we will.

Of course we will. I think you said at the beginning that we wouldn't miss them at all. I was joking. And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web, and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts.

I got my info from the episode of Murder and the Thirst titled Palm Beach Princess, the article Flower Delivery Turned Murder by Victoria Corderi for NBC News, and the article Social Disgraces by Deborah Miller Landau for Atlanta Magazine. I got my info from reporting for Target 8 News by Susan Samples. An episode of In Pursuit with John Walsh.

The TikTok channel Ominous Posts and MLive.com. For a full list of our sources, visit LGTCpodcast.com. Any errors are, of course, ours, but please don't take our word for it. Go read their stuff. Woo!