Let's Go To Court! - 218: A Victory for Gay Rights & Terrible Friends

Episode Date: July 13, 2022

When Sharon Kowalski and Karen Thompson fell in love, they knew they needed to be careful. It was the 1970s, and they lived in a conservative Minnesota town. They feared that if they came out of the closet, they would lose their jobs — or worse. The couple exchanged rings and bought a house together, but they didn’t come out to their families. Then one day, Sharon got into a terrible car accident. When Karen rushed to her side, Sharon’s family explained that they’d be the ones caring for Sharon. Then Brandi tells us about sixteen-year-old Jason Sweeney, who worked hard doing construction jobs with his father and hoped to one day attend a military academy. But those dreams were dashed by a group of kids who Jason considered his friends. Justina Morley, 15, lured Jason into the woods near the Delaware River, where Edward Batzig, 16, Nicholas Coia, 16, and Domenic Coia, 17, were lying in wait. And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: WEST 57TH: "Bitter Quarrel: A Test of Love" - 3/4/1989, CBS “The Minnesota legal fight that changed the course of the gay rights movement,” by Benjamin Kwan for Minnesota Lawyer  “In Re Guardianship of Kowalski,” Justia.com “It happened to us, 1983,” video on YouTube by Karen Thompson “A bitter fight for control,” by Joyce Murdoch for the Washington Post “Gay rights victory,” by Mark Hansen for the ABA Journal “Gay groups are rallied to aid 2 women’s fight,” by Nadine Brozan for the New York Times “Woman’s hospital visit marks gay rights fight,” by Nadine Brozan for the New York Times “Two sides are bypassed in lesbian case,” by Nadine Brozan for the New York Times “Disabled woman’s care given to lesbian partner,” by Tamar Lewin for the New York Times “Karen Thompson’s role in the movement for marriage equality,” by D. Kelly Weisberg for Hastings Women’s Law Journal In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “Friend Fatale” episode, Murder Among Friends “The Twisted Murder of Jason Sweeney” by Nicole Henley, Medium “Manson Echo in Philly Teen Murder Case” ABC News “Slaying of a Teen Leaves City Stunned” by David Zucchino, Los Angeles Times “Murder of Jason Sweeney” wikipedia.org YOU’RE STILL READING? My, my, my, you skeezy scunch! You must be hungry for more! We’d offer you some sausage brunch, but that gets messy. So how about you head over to our Patreon instead? (patreon.com/lgtcpodcast). At the $5 level, you’ll get 30+ full length bonus episodes, plus access to our 90’s style chat room!  

One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court. On this episode, I'll be talking about a good Karen. And I'll be talking about...

Jerking bird. And I'll be talking about some terrible fucking friends. Oh great, so friends who kill their friend. You guessed it. Wonderful. Wonderful. I feel so good to be back in the sex dungeon. How much sex has been going on in the dungeon since I've been gone? Since you've been gone, we've been banging all over this table.

I was going to say for the first time, but Norman and I have been married for a long time. He took that virginity pack to those. Finally wore him down. Anyway, everyone, if you haven't been keeping up with us on social media, you'll know that, well, you won't know that our break was a little longer than intended because like any good Midwestern gal, I caught a trend about two years after it was cool. Norma and I finally got COVID.

You're like the opposite of hipster. I tell you what, COVID was weird. Yeah? Yeah. What were your main symptoms? Did you get the brain fogs? Oh, my God. Norm was so mad at me.

Okay, here's what I did one night. You know, I wanted to be productive all through COVID, which is hard with the brain fog. Yeah. COVID, which is hard with the brain fog. Yeah. I decided I was going to take my white bath mats down to the basement, soak them overnight with the, you know, like white OxyClean Revive stuff. Not sponsored, just a great product. Use it on my bedding.

So, you know, you soak that for a while, then you throw it in the wash. I don't know what the hell I was thinking. Yeah. That for a while. Then you throw it in the wash. I don't know what the hell I was thinking. I turned on the faucet in the basement and then I got distracted and then I went upstairs. And so all night long.

All night. All night. The water, she ran. Yeah. Oh, no. It wasn't good. That's not good. And then luckily someone in the Discord warned me that like COVID plays tricks on you. So like all of a sudden you'll feel great.

Yeah. For no reason. And you'll think you're done with it. Yeah. But no, it's just wait. Just waiting. Just lurking. So literally the day they said that to me, I had decided, you know what I'm going to do?

I'm going to paint the bathroom. Luckily, I luckily. No. Good. I had no, you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to paint the bathroom. Luckily, I – luckily, no. Good. I had no energy for that. Anyway. I am also very hot just like you and I have severe seasonal allergies right now. So I apologize for my snifflies. I told Kristen right before we started recording, grass pollen is off the charts right now, folks.

And I can't breathe. It's a good podcast. I'm glad you all tuned in. You know what, Brandy? What, Kristen? I have missed this. Can I call you sniffles? Can I call you sniffs?

Sorry. I have missed this, but, you know, we've stayed in touch with our audience through Patreon during this break. Oh, my gosh. I was just going to move on to your story. I was just going to enjoy it. But you're right. We haven't talked about our Patreon. You know, on the Patreon, you get bonus episodes, and they are full-blown meaty boy bonus episodes. That sounds disgusting, doesn't it?

Full-blown meaty boys? Yeah, it sounds like something that happens after you go to Jimmy John's. Sorry. Sorry, everyone. If that does appeal to you, though, it's at the $5 level on Patreon. You get a monthly bonus episode. Patreon, you get a monthly bonus episode. You get into the Discord to chitty chat

the day away with other fine listeners of this program. Tell them about how you just had a full-blown meaty boy. They'll know what you're talking about. At the $7 level, you get all that, plus a sticker, plus our autographs, plus

you get inducted at the end of this podcast. That's right. But that's not all. There's much, much more get inducted at the end of this podcast. That's right. But that's not all. There's much, much more waiting for you at the $10 level. That's the Bob Moss level. What happens at that level? At that level, you get all that stuff we already talked about,

plus you get ad-free episodes, and you get them a day early. That's right. Plus 10% off merch. Yeah. Don't say 10% off on merch. No. Because Brandy will make fun of you. And lower your self-esteem. Which is already so low.

Are you ready for this jelly? I am so ready for this jelly. I miss this so much. Do you think about the person, this is their first episode, and some Midwestern white lady is like, are you ready for this jelly? Or are you? What? I'm... What? I don't think you're ready. Our music references are 20 years old.

It's cool. It's cool. Yep. Yep. Anyway, Brandi's 85. So, shout-outs to... You normally don't let it slide when I say that you're 85 years old. It's fine. I kind of am.

Do you know anything about the case I'm about to tell you about? No. Oh. An ignorant slut. Very good. What are you reading right now? Nothing. I forgot to do a thingy. You're reading something.

I'm doing a thingy, and so I'm just doing the thingy real quick. Got it. I'm ready to pay attention fully now. Oh, great. I'm forgot to do a thingy. And so I'm just doing the thingy real quick. Got it. I'm ready to pay attention fully now. Oh, great. I'm glad to have you with us. Shoutouts to an episode of West 57th. And you might be like, what the hell is that? Well, it ran on CBS in 1989.

It was a, like, news program. Oh. Anyway, found that on YouTube. Quite helpful. What's the source of that name? I don't know. I mean, maybe they had an office on Wednesday. I don't know.

How deeply do you think I dug in? Okay, you know what? I did dig a little bit. Jane Polly was on this TV show. I always liked Jane Polly. I know. You know, when I hear a name like that, I'm like, I wonder what that is.

So I start doing a little Googling. I thought maybe you'd done the same. Clearly you haven't. I did a little. I know about Jane Polly. Okay, great. Good for you. You don't know why it's called

Wes 59th or whatever. You know what? I heard that Stone Phillips thinks you're dumb. Probably does. It's fine. Wait, which one's Stone Phillips? See're dumb. Probably does. It's fine. Wait, which one's Stone Phillips? See the one with the face that doesn't move?

Yes. He looks so serious all the time. Yeah. I would love to see him at a kid's birthday. That man wouldn't crack a smile never the title of that episode was Bitter Quarrel colon, a test of love

I don't think you have to say the colon out loud I always do another one, I'm not going to name the I'm not going to name the headline I'm not going to say the headline I I'm not going to say the headline. I'm great at speaking. It's fine. Don't worry.

This month off hasn't done anything to my brain. It was written by Benjamin Kwan for the Minnesota Lawyer. Also, a lot of old-timey stuff from the New York Times. Very helpful. And by old-timey, we're talking about the 80s, so it's not super rude. Yeah. I realized normally when I'm talking about old-timey.

I'm also from the 80s. You mean you're 85. Also, I have to do a little disclaimer. I like this thing. What? Okay, your shirt. Okay, everybody,

Kristen's got like a cute little collared sleeveless button-up on today. A little number. It's got these little notches on the top of the shoulders. It's very cute. You know what's. It's got these little notches on the top of the shoulders. It's very cute.

You know what's funny? They're subtle little notches, and yet you're not the first to compliment me on the notches. It is such a subtle little... The top is from Athleta, which means it was overpriced, and so you pay for the little notches, the small details. Well, thank you. Thank you, my friend. Anyway, my disclaimer.

Yeah. This case involves like a metric shit ton of court stuff. It's a lot of I'm filing this. So, you know, occasionally we will hit the fast forward button. Great. And you're just going to have to deal with it. Okay. Okay.

Are you ready for some next level homophobia? Oh, shit. Really? Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I wasn't prepared for that. What are we? Oh, we're talking about a good Karen. Okay.

All right. I saw a TikTok that says since the Karen thing has taken off, not one single person has named their child Karen. That can't be true. I didn't fact check that. But I mean it would be wise. I wouldn't name a kid Karen right now. Not one single Karen has been born after a certain – You don't want your kid to have to spend their whole life proving that they're not a Karen.

Although maybe it would force them to be good. Or maybe it would be like you name your kid Rusty and he has to be a mechanic, right? Aren't all Rustys mechanics? I just thought all Rustys had red hair. Yeah, they do. They're red-headed mechanics. That's right. Anyway.

Yeah, so this is going to be a terrible story about homophobia the reason i'm telling it is someone in the discord shit i didn't write it down they were like hey you know since you guys are taking off pride month could you all do a themed episode for like lgbtq cases and i felt like an asshole because i was like actually we've stopped doing themed cases because you can't force it you can't force the magic of this podcast but I was like but yes I will do an

LGBTQ case and here it is why'd we both do that I don't know we're in weird modes also I was like LGBTQ do you add the IA anymore? I mean, I know we did in college. Have we dropped it?

Isn't it just LGBTQ plus now? Yes. Okay. Okay. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. Could we have looked it up?

We sure could. Absolutely. I think it's the plus. I think it's the plus, too. All right. Reach out. All right. Reach out. All right.

Before we get to the homophobia, I must tell you a love story. Ooh. Picture it. It's the 1970s in St. Cloud, Minnesota. St. Cloud has a population of about 68,000 people. And yet, it is the 12th biggest city in Minnesota. Okay. Don't you know? Oh, gonna just snot it everywhere. Sorry. I'm just so happy to be here. I am too. St. Cloud is of course home to? I don't know. St. Cloud State University. Oh. Go Huskies. Yeah, I'm big Huskies fan.

And that's where a woman named Karen Thompson worked as a professor of physical education. Karen was very dedicated to her job. She worked long hours. In fact, she says she was a bit of a workaholic. And she lived her life that way because she noticed that if she fully dedicated herself to her work life, then people wouldn't ask quite as many questions about her personal life. Ooh. Yeah, that's probably a thing people do.

That's sad. Mm-hmm. Aw. Brandi, if that part bums you out. That really bummed me out. I've got bad news for what's ahead. It gets worse than working long hours. What's it?

It gets worse than working long hours. And, you know, that was good because Karen's personal life was dangerous. Karen was gay. And in America in the 1970s, that wasn't even remotely OK. Yeah. This was only a few years after the American Psychiatric Association made the radical decision that perhaps being gay wasn't a mental disorder. Neat. Yeah, it's very cool. Yeah.

Did you say it's a very cool, like you're Mario? It's a very cool. Being gay is no longer a mental disorder. See, I feel like this is offensive. Sorry, Mario. Anyway. So, yeah, Karen was obviously in the closet. But one day, she found love.

When Karen was in her early 30s, she had a student named – I know. I know. Okay. I know. I don't approve either. Okay. But this is like the least problematic part of a terrible story. Okay, great. She had a student named Sharon Kowalski in one of her classes.

About a year after that class ended, Sharon came to Karen and asked if she could help with the track team. Their names are Sharon and Karen. I know. It was meant to be. Yeah. And Karen said, sure. And over the course of that year, they became good friends. Yeah.

And. Very good friends. Just good friends. Well, maybe things happen with your good friend. Am I right, Brandy? No! How long have you wanted to see under these little flappies, huh?

Long-ass time, am I right? That's right! Maybe once we've been friends for 30 years. Yeah, that seems right. So their relationship progressed slowly. It just sort of happened. It was so surprising. At least that's the way that Karen described it to CBS back in the day. Honestly, I wonder how much of it is just like you're living in a really

homophobic time period where you can't just be like, hi, I'm gay. Yeah. She was gay. We fell in love. Yeah. Instead, it has to be like, oh. It was nothing more than a friendship at first. I always, I wanted nothing more than to marry a man. I was just waiting for the right one.

Oh, what's this long-term friend? You're innocently holding my hand. And now it's something more. That is how it started. She was like, you know, Sharon was the type of person she'd like grab your hand and be like, oh, look at this. And then all of a sudden you're just holding hands. So to me it reads as I'm going to tell this story the way the straight people can hear it. I was trying to pick between soften and straight people and just, you know, mixed them. the straight people can hear it. I was trying to pick between soft and straight

people and just mixed them. Soft straight people. Anyway, homophobia sucks. But so does banging your students, but we have no time to worry about that. Yeah, when I got to that part of the story, I was like, oh, that's too bad. That's too bad.

I don't love that. Anyway, after secretly dating for about two years, Karen and Sharon got married. OK, married is the term that I'm using. It obviously wasn't a legally binding ceremony because up until quite recently, it was illegal for two women to get married. And that sounds bigoted and terrible. But the truth is that if you let two women get married, then what's to stop two Disney adults from getting married, Brandy? Okay?

Okay. It's a slippery slope. That's right. We cannot allow Disney adults to get married. It will rip apart the fabric of our society. That's right. All right? Okay.

Very good. So Karen and Sharon's ceremony wasn't legally binding, but their relationship was very important to them. Do you think the Disney adults will be mad? Obviously. It's been a long time since you riled them up. Well, I heard about that. Not long enough. I heard about that Reddit post where, like, the Disney adults had a wedding and they didn't pay for it. They spent their catering budget on having Mickey and Minnie make an appearance.

That might drive me to murder. I go to your destination wedding. I see two grown-ass adults in costumes like they're mice, but you don't feed me a chicken breast. We're considering it. Don't you dare. Honestly, here's what would happen. Yeah. If on your wedding day you were like, hey, so we decided to do this thing where, like, you know, people are just going to, you know, buy food

from local restaurants. You know what I would do? Honestly. First of all, what do you think I would do? I don't know what you would do. You would question what brought me to that decision. And then you'd you're being too subtle about it. I'm sorry.

I think at first you'd try to be polite about it on your wedding day. No, no, there's no time. There's no time. I think at first you'd try to be polite about it. On your wedding day? No. No. There's no time. There's no time. I would. So I would tell you, I think you've made a mistake, but there's time to fix it. Yeah. And I would call my mom and I'd call Kyle.

I'd be like, go to Costco. Go to Costco. Bring us whatever they have. Right. Bring us 15 trays of whatever. Yeah. It doesn't have to be good. It just has to be food. So anyway, they had this ceremony.

They exchanged rings. They bought a cute little house on a lake. It was a ranch. I like a ranch that overlooks water. Yeah, that's lovely. They took out life insurance policies and named one another as the beneficiaries. One of them burped in the middle of a story, which is rude.

I just blew air out of my mouth so fast that my lip flapped back and my lip ring hit my gums. And people say you're dramatic. Why do they say this? I love it.

You're, ow! Do we need to stop? No, I think I can get you some workers comp. I think I'm going to be able to push through. Wow. And they say people don't want to work these days. Now, here's the story of courage and bravery. So at this point, Karen was still a professor at the local college,

and Sharon had a job as a physical education teacher at the local high school. So they couldn't risk being out of the closet. They feared that if they were open about their relationship, they might lose their jobs. I mean, which Sharon for sure would have lost her job in the 70s. Or they might be ostracized by their community. So they were very careful about their relationship. That's the nicest thing that would happen to them. Neither of them came out to their families. They were even careful about paperwork. When they got the house together, they only got it in Karen's name because they figured it might raise eyebrows if they had both their names on the deed. So, you know, for four years, that's how

they lived. They lived together essentially as a married couple, but for safety reasons, only their close friends knew about their relationship. That seemed like the smartest way to live in a deeply homophobic society. And then came November 13th, 1983. Sharon was driving north to visit her parents. She had her niece and nephew in the car. And as they were going down the road, a drunk driver smashed into their vehicle. Sharon's niece was killed in the crash. Her nephew survived. And so did Sharon.

But it was bad. Sharon became a quadriplegic. She couldn't speak. She had partial control of her right hand, and that was it. She'd suffered brain damage. How much brain damage, it was difficult to determine. But the bottom line was that at just 27 years old, Sharon was clinging to life after being in a car crash that took the life of her niece.

She was initially in a coma. One source said for five months. Other sources indicate that it was a much shorter period than that. But, you know, Sharon's family was, of course, devastated by this accident. And Karen somehow found out about it and dropped everything, went to the hospital. And for hours, she didn't know if Sharon was dead or alive because she wasn't privy to that information. Yeah. Because they wouldn't share it with her because she wasn't a family member.

Right. Yeah. Technically, she had no right to know. Yeah. And no one would tell her what was going on because who was she exactly? Mm-hmm. A really emotional friend? Yeah.

Oh, that's friend. Yeah. Oh, that's terrible. Yeah. So, you know, in the Kowalski's mind, she obviously didn't need to be in the room with Sharon. She didn't need to know everything that was going on with Sharon. But Karen wouldn't go away. She eventually got into the room, and she spent a ton of time over the next few days by Sharon's side.

And Sharon's family, specifically her dad, Don, and her mom, Della, found Karen's presence really odd. Karen knew that Sharon's family lived fairly far away, so she invited them to come stay at the home that she and Sharon shared together. And they were like, no, thank you. Finally, Don was just like, you know, he took Karen to the side into an empty waiting room, and he essentially told her, hey, whatever she needs from here on out can be provided by family. Family will take care of her. And Karen panicked, and she said, well, I am family. I am family. Family will take care of her. And Karen panicked. And she said, well, I am family. I am family. But to the Kowalskis, she wasn't. And their daughter wasn't in a position to tell them

otherwise. So the Kowalskis began making plans to move Sharon to a facility like five hours away. Oh, my gosh. And Karen was, of course, distraught. She had to do something. So about 10 weeks after the accident, on the advice of a psychologist, Karen decided to tell Sharon's parents the truth. She wrote them a letter. And in that letter, Karen like very delicately explained that, you know, Sharon needed their love and support, but that maybe she might have grown into a woman who they didn't totally know or understand. And Karen explained their relationship. She said, we go to bed together every night. We wake up to each other every morning. We share hopes. We share dreams.

morning. We share hopes. We share dreams. We're a couple. Yeah. This letter did not go over well. Don and Della were livid. They decided that Karen was crazy. She was making this all up. Oh my gosh. Their daughter because that's how that works. Right. Yeah. Ugh. I have seen a show that must have used this as like inspiration, like a hospital like TV show where they did a very similar thing like this. Is that the end of the story?

That's the whole story. That was quite good. Thank you for that. So this whole situation – do I need to tell you again i watched a show well i can't be sure what show it was on the tv okay it was in a hospital setting and yeah very similar situation was similar to this you're thinking it's perhaps kind of a ripped from the headline that's exactly what I'm saying. And again, we don't know the TV show.

No. We don't know any more about the plot. No, I believe it was two men rather than two women. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Yep. Well, that really adds something. You're welcome.

You're welcome. So. So. This whole situation was a mess. Karen began looking into her rights. She discovered that she didn't have any rights. It was horrible. And to make things more complicated over time, it became very clear that Sharon needed Karen.

Because according to Dr. Keith Larson, who was Sharon's neurologist... You know why that is? Because Sharon is Karen. My God. You know, people say you interrupt too much, but they're obviously wrong. I mean, there, that's a real thinker. That is. That's like Dick's Insider. You know, some people, they'll be going months down the road and all of a sudden, oh, my God, Sharon is Karen.

I get it. I get it. Hat tip to Brandy. Anyway, may we move on? Yeah. So the doctor said that Don Kowalski came weekend after weekend to visit Sharon. But Don had, quote, so much difficulty understanding that there was life there. He would visit Sharon almost as if he

was visiting a corpse in a funeral home. That's what the doctor said. He didn't seem to understand that his daughter was disabled and yeah, she'd suffered some brain damage, but she was still there. But Karen didn't have trouble understanding that. When Karen was with Sharon, she worked with her. She helped her with rehab. She discovered that, quote, there was a human being inside of there, trapped in a body that wasn't working very well. But Sharon was there. Over time, Karen helped Sharon learn to communicate using a letter board and eventually a typewriter. Karen helped Sharon with reading, math problems, flexibility, exercise. And Sharon made progress.

She was able to communicate. Her short-term memory had been pretty badly damaged, but she knew who Karen was. She could communicate that she and Karen were in a relationship. Yeah. But Don and Della were uncomfortable. They didn't want Karen around their daughter. And they kept talking about moving Sharon to a nursing home about five hours away.

Oh my gosh. So in a panic, Karen filed for guardianship of Sharon. And Don Kowalski counter-filed for guardianship. And in April of 1984, the two parties reached an agreement outside of court. They agreed that Don would be Sharon's guardian, but Karen would be able to visit a ton, and she'd have an equal say in all of Sharon's medical care. It seemed like a good arrangement. Hmm. On the surface. You remember that TV show.

It didn't end well, did it? I can't remember. I mean, it would have been a pretty boring TV show if it was just like, yep, things are equal. Life is good. Yeah. So the thing is that once Don became Sharon's guardian, he had way more control than Karen did. And this is when things got really ugly.

Over the next few years, Karen and Sharon's parents went to court several times. I realize that sounds like Karen's parents and Sharon's parents went to court several times. That's not what I'm saying. Do you understand what I'm saying? Sharon went to court with Karen's parents several times. No. Sharon is the one who was in the accident. I'm sorry.

Karen. You're just really. I apologize. Karen went to court against Sharon's parents several times. There you go. I got it. You got it. Bing, bang, boom.

So, yeah. For this season. Uh-oh. parents several times there you go i got it you got it bing bang boom uh so yeah for this seat oh i really did i'm i know you were doing clarification kind of as a joke but i really was confused like half a second i was like what are karen's parents doing there boy just everyone got involved in this, didn't they? It's nice when everyone's Karen, am I right? That's right. So, you know, for the sake of speed and clarity, we're going to montage this a bit. Essentially, and this is me talking a little, what Don and Della wanted was for their daughter to not have been gay. Yes. And if they could keep Karen out of Sharon's life, then maybe they could keep up the fantasy that Sharon had never been in love with a woman.

So that's what they did. In court, their position was that Sharon was not gay. Karen was crazy and she was a bad influence on Sharon. And worst of all, she was a sexual predator. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Cool. Their family physician, William Wilson, wrote a letter to the court saying that, quote,

visits by Karen Thompson at this time would expose Sharon Kowalski to a high risk of sexual abuse. What? Yeah. What? Yeah. I just will never understand the line of thinking that, like, somehow gay people are just like, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex all the time. Well, not even sex, sex, sex. It's like assault.

Yeah. It's not even. Oh, great. This person can't really consent to me. Can't move. Yeah. It's not even just. Oh, great. This person can't really consent to me. Can't move. Yeah. Now's my chance. Wow.

OK. Yeah. It's horrible. Yeah. The Kowalskis. I think this is interesting. They also argued that after Karen visited her, Sharon was often depressed. So I guess she can't visit anymore. That seemed weird to me. Yeah. Anyway, in a legal

sense, Karen was totally screwed because they couldn't be legally married. She essentially had no rights, but Sharon did have rights. Sharon could communicate her wishes. And OK, this is where it gets even more fucked up because Sharon did communicate via the letter board and typewriter that she and Karen were lovers. She communicated that she wanted to live with Karen in St. Cloud. And, of course, that's what Karen wanted too. She didn't want Sharon to be in a nursing home. She wanted to take Sharon home and care for her. At the very least, she wanted her to be in a place that specialized in brain injury treatment.

She didn't want her to be in a nursing home where she wouldn't be getting a lot of rehabilitative care. Did I say that word properly? Rehabilitative? Yeah. All right. So tell me I'm smart. You're so smart.

Thank you. I're so smart. Thank you. I know. Anyway. So she could communicate, but for years in court, Sharon's voice was totally lost. The Kowalskis indicated that Sharon was essentially a child. She couldn't reliably give her opinion on anything. Wow. Yeah.

That sucks. To me, I mean, there's obviously a lot of scary stuff about this case. To me, this is the scariest. That Sharon can communicate. But she's not being allowed to even advocate for her own. Well, and her parents are basically saying that because she's – their line usually was like because she's in diapers, which a lot of people don't have control –

Control of – yeah. Of their – what am I looking for? I mean they don't have control of that, but that doesn't mean that you get to make all decisions for them. Wow. So that was their position, and the court believed them. Attorney Brian O'Neill was asked by the Minnesota Civil Liberties Union to represent Sharon in 1985, and he said that looking back to him, he was fighting for Sharon's fundamental

right to surround herself with who she wanted to surround herself with. But the court saw it as, does a dad have the right to protect his daughter from a predatory lesbian? And guess what the court decided? Yeah. On July 25th, 1985, Don got a court order terminating Karen's visitation rights. Great. The court granted Don unconditional guardianship. And Don moved Sharon to a nursing home way the fuck away in Hibbing, Minnesota. Sharon's parents restricted her visitors.

They censored her mail. Basically, anyone who had any connection to Karen was not allowed to visit. So Sharon was cut off from all her friends, her community. Yeah. Karen had advocated for Sharon to be in a rehabilitation facility. She wanted her to be, as I said, in a place that specialized in brain injuries. But in the nursing home where the Kowalskis placed Sharon, she didn't have access to an electric wheelchair, she didn't have access to a typewriter, and she was essentially confined to a bed. For three years, Karen and Sharon were not allowed to see one another.

That is horrible. Yeah, absolutely horrible. Horrible. Yeah. Absolutely horrible. Pause for your thoughts. Oh, I'm. I don't even know. I don't know what my thoughts are. Just that these parents like had their daughter legally declared not a lesbian.

And it was. And that was the most important thing. Yeah. Yeah. More important than literally anything else. Yeah. Yeah. So I felt some emotions.

Yeah. Looking into this one just because, you know, initially when she's in that car wreck, they've just lost their granddaughter. Their daughter has been in this horrible accident. It would be terrible. And then you find out, oh, we didn't know her the way we thought we knew her. Now, I would submit that the proper way to feel about that is sad that your daughter didn't feel like she could come to you and be honest about who she is.

Absolutely. That's on you. Yes. Now, that's obviously not how they took it. But, you know, I thought it was interesting because Karen talked about those early days. Yeah. And she was like, you know, I understand this is a shock. If they need to take some time, great.

Right. Take all the time you need. But don't let it interfere with Sharon's care. No. Don't let it hurt her. No. And that's where they piss me off is they let it hurt their daughter. Absolutely.

Absolutely. Also, I don't know. I think we all know some of these parents. Oh, yeah. Who have gay kids and it's like, okay, how does everyone else know? But you're pretending you're surprised. Really? You thought she was a woman in her late 20s who'd been living with a woman for four years? Mm-hmm.

And they were just like super close roommates yeah all right don anyway i feel weird shitting on a dad who's been through some shit but see that go back and forth yeah so you know they went three years where they couldn't see each other and it was devastating but karen refused to give up she later said they couldn't see each other, and it was devastating, but Karen refused to give up. She later said, They couldn't deal with the fact that their daughter was in a relationship with me, and if they could shut me out of Sharon's life, they didn't have to deal with it. I understand that this is difficult for them, that it's hard for them, but my patience with them ends when it hurts Sharon. Karen fought this thing at every level that she could. She filed appeals at the

local level, the federal level. Her argument was that the guardianship should be revoked and that Sharon wasn't getting access to the kind of treatment that would help her improve mentally and physically. But she lost. She lost again and again and again. And the court continued to side with Sharon's biological family. The courts refused to acknowledge the reality of Sharon and Karen's relationship. In fact, one court referred to Karen as Sharon's former roommate. Oh, my gosh. Give me a fucking break.

But the process made Karen pretty brave. She'd never been an activist, and she'd been very fiercely private and protective about her sexuality. But she realized that if she was going to save Sharon, she needed to go public with their story. So she did. She became a public speaker because what was happening to her and Sharon was essentially every gay couple's worst nightmare. And it was playing out all over the country because of the AIDS epidemic, where all of a sudden people were getting really sick or they were dying and their partners had no rights. Yeah. So the case of Sharon Kowalski's guardianship was important to gay rights groups,

but it was also important to disability groups because it was so alarming that Sharon wasn't being listened to. Yeah. Okay. You already know how I feel about what? The timing of this is actually perfect because it's actually July is Disability Pride Month. Are you shitting me? I'm not. I planned it. That's so cool. I didn't know that was a thing. Yeah, I have a very good client of mine who is a wheelchair user, and she posts about disability pride and stuff. All right. Well, there you go, folks. It's us bringing you the timely stuff in these cases from the 80s.

That's right. That's right. So in an interview with CBS, Jan Goldman, an attorney for the ACLU, said that one of the problems with this case was that Sharon was initially portrayed to the court as like an infant in diapers and mentally at that stage. She said that one of the saddest things in this case was that Sharon could have come into court early on and made it very clear what she wanted. Yeah. early on and made it very clear what she wanted. So Jan interviewed Sharon and she said that Sharon answered all of her questions, you know, just as anyone would, but obviously much slower because she was using a typewriter and only had partial control of one hand. So the interview took all day. But Jan asked what Sharon's relationship was to Karen Thompson and Sharon typed gay.

And Jan said, OK, what does that mean to you? What does that word mean to you? Gay can mean a lot of things to a lot of people. And Sharon typed, we love each other. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. So Karen began sharing their story with anyone who would listen. And a lot of people listened. In 1988, Karen was the marshal of the Pride Parade in New York, and she was the keynote speaker at a gay rights rally in Washington. She told their story very well. She urged gay couples to write wills and draw up powers of attorney so that if anything happened to their partner, they would have rights to their shared property and they'd have a say in medical decisions. She helped organize the National Free Sharon Kowalski Day on August 7, 1988, and there were processions in 21 cities across the nation advocating for Sharon's rights.

Wow. Yeah. The fight for Sharon's rights had been expensive, but by talking about it publicly, The fight for Sharon's rights had been expensive, but by talking about it publicly, Karen managed to fundraise more than $100,000 in legal fees. Wow. And that humiliated the Kowalski family. Dawn contended that Karen just wanted money. This whole lesbian thing was for money. Obviously, because it would be so worth it to put yourself out dangerously out there yeah as a public lesbian right yeah it'd be so fun rolling in dough uh-huh to pay your legal fees yeah i'm sorry you you've already had a bunch. Yeah.

In an interview, Don was asked if he ever asked Sharon if she wanted to see Karen. And he said, you know, there's times she says yes and times she says no. His take on it was that, quote, in her condition, Sharon would be happy to see anybody. OK. About the relationship, he said, quote, Sharon never told us about it, so I don't feel as though I should have to believe what a school teacher is telling me over my daughter that I trusted. Okay. Yeah, it's like, first of all, she's a professor. Yeah.

So don't, let's get that correct. And also, your daughter can still tell you. Yes. Over my daughter that I trusted, past tense. Yeah. Your daughter is still there. Yep. In that same interview, he also said, quote, who comes first when there isn't a marriage?

If there's a marriage, that's a different story. I'm married because I've got a marriage license and it's legal. So this is what bothers me about having to go to court all the time is there's nothing legal. Because it can't be. Not because they didn't want it to be. Right. To me, that's the dumbest fucking argument. to me that's the dumbest fucking argument you know i don't think it is the dumbest argument but i think it says a lot that he's trying to make these two arguments at the same time the argument of they were never in a relationship but also

it's not legal yeah and to me it's okay, you kind of get to pick one. Yeah. Because to me, the fact that you're bringing that second one up says that you do know they were in a relationship. You do know they were in a relationship. Absolutely. And you know you're losing on that battle. So now you're changing to, well, what they had wasn't legal, so. Doesn't matter.

Mm-hmm. Can you imagine the only thing i mean by being the dumbest fucking argument you can't argue that it's not legal when there's no way for it to have been legal it's illegal at this time it was illegal for them to be married they could not have a legal marriage so for you to argue that they had no legal relationship because they couldn't fucking have a legal relationship. Not because a lack of wanting a legal relationship. Yeah. I don't like this guy.

I mean, I get these guys do some shit. I know. See, that's why it's hard. It's like you don't. You okay? I am. Sorry. You got you a little choked up.

I did. I did. I got worked up. May I tell you something that really turned this ship around for me? Sure. So, you know, I was really battling with how I was feeling because it's like, all right, this guy has been through some shit. Yeah. All right.

This guy has been through some shit. But ultimately I think he's being horrible, horrible to his daughter, horrible all around. He's not treating his daughter like a person. No. No. Yeah. He's actively denying what is clearly in front of his face. So, you know, I was dealing with this stuff. And, you know, I mean I get on newspapers.com.

I'm looking up the old articles. In one article in the 80s, he talked about his quote was something like, you know, in the army, we called them queers and fruits, not gays and lesbians. Yeah. So that tells you a lot about his mindset, doesn't it? Yeah, it sure does. So that's when I got on the choo-choo Don Kowalski sex train. All aboard! What?

We can't both be the conductor. I'll be the guy who hangs off the end. Oh, yeah! I'll be the guy who hangs off the end. Oh, yeah. So by this point – by the way, does that do it for you too? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, good God, dude.

Yeah. OK. Here's the thing. Picturing London in this scenario. Yeah. She's got someone in her life who cares this much about her, wants to be with her. Yeah. Yeah. She's got someone in her life who cares this much about her, wants to be with her.

Yeah. And you say no. No. Yeah. You fight that? Yeah. Wouldn't you think that at a time like this

you would need all the support and love for your child possible? Yes. Yeah. It's mind- possible? Yes. Yeah. It's mind-boggling.

Yeah, it is. The homophobia is fierce. Yes, it is. So by this point, Karen had lost twice in the Court of Appeals, and she tried to get the Minnesota Supreme Court to review the case, but the court was like, no, thank you. So Karen's attorney, M. Sue Wilson, which I don't like it when people go by just an initial. Yeah. Confuses me. Yeah. What do you call them? M-A-M. Or you call them Sue?

I don't. See, that's my problem. Do you think, okay, hold on. What? You got it? Do you think she chose to go by the name Sue because she's a lawyer? God, that is so stupid. Yes. Yes, I do. First name Mary, but then middle name Sue.

And she's like, well, now that I'm in this profession, people are going to remember me more. Right. And then she gets those, she gets like little business cards that are like real cute because they're like, want to sue somebody? Call Sue.

That's right. All right. Well, that's good. So M. Sue Wilson was like, okay, we got to look at the guardianship statute, even though I called it a statue. Let's gaze upon it. Gaze upon the statue. Oh, no, it's held up by an old Confederate guy.

The good thing about that statute was that it kind of allowed you to try again and again and again. And Karen was nothing if not determined. Yeah. The statute – I can't unsee statute. I'm sorry. The statute dictated that the ward's preference should determine the guardian. Wow. Imagine that. Yeah, weird.

Amazing. So the court needed to take into account what the ward wanted, what the ward needed, and the guardian's abilities. Yeah. Goodness gracious. So then the legal strategy becomes baby steps. Can we get an order of it? Sorry. I'm a little happy to be here again.

I can't stress that enough. Can we get an order for visitation? The answer was yes. And that was a big deal. By that point, like I said, Karen and Sharon hadn't seen each other in like three years. Sharon had assumed that Karen had left her. Fuck. Right?

Yeah. Of course she did. Of course she did. Her mail was being censored, so she had no way of knowing. All of her visitors were being censored, so anyone with connections to Karen wasn't allowed to visit her. So, yeah, she thought she'd just been abandoned. That is fucking terrible. So when Karen walked into her room, they both cried.

So when Karen walked into her room, they both cried. They'd been through such a fucked up time, being told that their relationship had never been real. So Karen said to Sharon, I need to know what you think of me before I pursue this fight further. And Sharon spelled out the word lover. So Karen kept fighting. They went to court again, trying to get approval for experts to reassess Sharon's mental ability. And a judge agreed. But Sharon's parents were pissed. Their attorney, Jack Fina, tried to block the court-ordered tests by arguing that those tests would be harmful to Sharon. Sure. Yeah. So the testing would take place at a different facility over a period of like 60 days.

They wanted to be very thorough. So he argued that that would be hard on Sharon, and he also argued that the tests were unnecessary. He told the New York Times, quote, if you get your leg cut off, how many doctors must tell you that your leg is cut off? Okay, but we're talking about that. We're talking about her cognitive abilities. Right. Yeah. And that's extremely important.

Absolutely. Because we need to determine if this person can make a decision about where they want to live. Absolutely. Who they want to see. Do you not get that? Yeah. Jack ass. That was original comedy from me to see. Do you not get that? Yeah. Jack-ass. That was original comedy from me to you.

You know, I got that. Yeah. You didn't think that I stole that from a more talented person, did you? In that same article, Karen told the New York Times that Sharon was not the person that her parents were making her out to be. She said, I taught Sharon to type. I helped her with reading, writing, math problems, short-term memory skills, with flexibility and exercise. To listen to them, you would think we're talking about a totally helpless, incompetent patient who could not possibly express her wishes. She said,

Mm-hmm. In the midst of all this, Sharon's parents were facing their own problems. This had been an expensive legal battle, and they couldn't really afford it anymore. On top of that, Don was still Sharon's legal guardian, but he was getting older and I believe they said he had two heart attacks. And so in late 1988, Don Kowalski decided that he could no longer be his daughter's guardian. So he petitioned the court to be removed as Sharon's guardian. Karen obviously caught wind of this and was like, all right, you know, if he doesn't want to be guardian, that's great. I want to be Sharon's legal guardian.

So Karen petitioned the court once again to be Sharon's guardian. And it should have been a slam dunk, but it wasn't. Because around this time, an old family friend of the Kowalskis named Karen Tomberlin reached out to Sharon's attorney. And she was like, hey, I want to testify against Karen Thompson becoming Sharon's guardian. She also submitted a letter to the court being like, hey, maybe I should be guardian. It wasn't ever anything super official. She never went through all the hoops that Karen Thompson had to jump through to prove that she would be a good guardian. She was just a lady saying, hey, why not me? Which under any other circumstance might be inspiring.

So there were all these evidentiary hearings. And Karen's legal team called 16 medical witnesses who had all been caring for Sharon. So these were neutral people. Yeah. And everyone was like, yes, Sharon reliably says that she wants to be with Karen and she's making good progress in her recovery with Karen. Karen is super involved in her care. They explained that Sharon could be stubborn about doing her rehab. She could be resistant about getting her mouth and teeth cleaned.

But Karen always found a way to motivate Sharon. Sharon trusted Karen. She allowed Karen to clean her teeth and mouth. After evaluating Sharon for four months, Sharon's doctor wrote a letter to the court that said, We believe Sharon Kowalski has shown areas of potential and ability to make rational choices in many areas of her life, Mm-hmm. and burdensome. We think she deserves the opportunity to try. The medical experts testified that their long-term goal for Sharon was for her to live her life outside of an institution. But in order for that to happen, someone would have to have the desire and ability to care for her. I mean, it would be a lot of work. Yeah. But Karen wanted to do it. Yeah. And she'd already

built a fully handicap-ac handicap accessible house. Wow. She was doing the work. She was ready. Yeah. She'd been allowed to take Sharon home for weekend visits. They'd done great. But in court, Sharon's sister, Deborah, testified. And then a friend of the family's testified.

And then Karen Tomberlin, the other family friend, also testified. None of these three people had visited Karen very frequently in recent years. None of them had any medical training. But that didn't stop them from saying they were pretty sure Karen Thompson should not be appointed as Sharon's legal guardian. Cool. Yeah. Their logic was that Sharon's short-term memory had been so badly damaged that she couldn't reliably make that kind of decision.

The medical staff, you know, decided otherwise. Right. But these three. But these three homophobes have decided. They're pretty sure. Sharon's sister said that if Karen Thompson was named Sharon's legal guardian, her parents would stop visiting Sharon. Okay, that makes me so fucking angry. Yeah.

Because that, to me, that doesn't say what you think it says. No. To me it says we are pieces of shit. Uh-huh. Would there be a situation where you would be like, well, I'm done with London? No. Yeah, exactly. Never.

Yeah. Never. But they're saying, oh, if this person is named guardian, we're just done with our kid. For the record, Karen didn't want that. She was like, that's really not necessary. I can facilitate visits. I don't even have to be there. Maybe Karen Tomberlin could drive Sharon to visit her parents sometimes.

I don't want Sharon to be alienated from her family. She wants Sharon to be alienated from her family. Worth noting, none of these people who were against Karen Thompson were saying, oh, I want to take Sharon home with me. In fact, they all said they couldn't. Karen Tomberlin, the one who was like, oh, I should be guardian, was like, no, I can't take her home with me, but I would like to supervise her needs while she is in an institution. They couldn't really argue that Karen Thompson would be a bad guardian based on how she'd actually interacted with Sharon. So they had to take a different tactic. They argued that Karen had humiliated everyone by outing Sharon as a lesbian.

Yeah, bringing all that lesbian shit into this. Yeah. She'd violated her right to privacy. So. Thoughts, Brandy? Thoughts? I mean, she was forced to. Exactly.

They left her no choice. Yeah. This is not someone who wanted. No. To be outed. No. You forced her to. Well, and she had to out herself.

Right. Right along with it. Right. And if you'd just been cool about it, then the whole world probably wouldn't have known. No fucking shit! Right? So whose fault is that? Oh my gosh.

They also pointed out that in the three-year period when Sharon and Karen legally couldn't see each other, Karen had started seeing someone new. And that was true, and Karen was honest about it. She talked about it on the stand. She talked about it in the media. She told the New York Times, I said on the stand that two and a half years after being away from Sharon, I decided to leave myself open to other relationships. Sharon comes home with me all the time, and some of that time the other person is there. She really likes the person I'm with and has never asked. The system separated us for three and a half years, and we became strangers. For Sharon,

I will always be what I was years ago. She can never know me as I am today, but I will love her for the rest of my life. Yeah, I think that makes total sense. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's really sad. Yeah. And we'll talk more about that relationship in a bit. I imagine stuff of that nature happens all the time. Yeah. And it's only being questioned here because they're gay. Yeah. be in a life-altering accident like this and you maintain a loving caregiver relationship with them without it being a romantic relationship. I think relationships transition.

Yeah. And again, I think there's – you can't ignore the fact that like she didn't know how long they were going to be separated. So Karen Thompson was the person that Sharon wanted to be with. Karen Thompson was the only person that had the means and desire to care for Sharon at home. Karen Thompson was the person that all the medical experts agreed was the best person to take care of Sharon. And so, in April of 1991, a St. Louis County District Court judge awarded Karen Tomberlin guardianship of Sharon Kowalski. A fucking course. A fucking course they did. Yeah. Want to hear why?

It's all solid logic, don't worry. Okay, sure. Yeah. Because, ew, lesbians. That's just what the opinions say. In his ruling, Judge Robert Campbell compared Sharon Kowalski to a child with divorcing parents who were fighting over her. Uh, no. Yeah.

You missed it, buddy. Yeah. She is absolutely not a child. No. Holy shit. What child is like, yeah, this is my lover and I would like to go home and live with them. Yeah. The judge concluded that Karen Tomberlin was a neutral choice and that's why she was the right way to go.

Okay. The judge also concluded that it was in Sharon's best interest to be cared for in a facility and that Karen Thompson, as just one person, couldn't be her sole provider of care, which was an interesting argument because it went against all of the opinions of the medical staff who had said that Sharon could be cared for at home and that Karen was absolutely equipped to be Sharon's caregiver. You know, and she'd obviously wouldn't be the only person. No! But she'd be the point person and that would be okay.

The judge acknowledged that for the previous two years, when asked where she wanted to live, Sharon consistently said in St. Cloud with Karen. He also noted that Karen had been committed and devoted to Sharon's welfare. But he said that Karen had violated Sharon's privacy by outing her to her parents and the rest of the world, and he said that the court needed to consider the fact that Karen now had another domestic partnership. Okay. Why?

Why the fuck? Why? You've got someone who cares deeply about this person who wants to help them and take care of them. Yeah. You've got their chosen family right there. You've got the person saying, this is who I want to be with. Right.

What the fuck difference does it make to you that Karen has a new girlfriend? Yeah. Oh, it's because of, ew, lesbians. Right. Sorry. Forgot. This is infuriating. Yeah.

I'm sorry. It's a really shitty case. It's terrible. The verdict was a slap in the face, obviously. At the time, the executive director of the Lambda Legal Defense Fund called the judge's decision, quote, a deep offense not only to all lesbians and gay men, but to all Americans who choose their partners and households by their own terms and not the legal rules imposed by society. He said, the idea of neutrality does not apply in any other area of family law. Sharon chose her family, but the judge doesn't agree. So he imposed his own vision on her.

Yeah. Why would you need a neutral third party? No. I mean, she's not neutral is one thing. But also, again, you've got someone who loves and cares for this person. The other person feels the exact same way. I mean, to use the divorcing parents analogy, that'd be like saying, oh, never mind. We're not going to give the child to either parent. We're going to put them in foster care. That's an interesting point. Yes.

Yeah, because it's got to be neutral. Yeah. Nothing better than neutral, I say. That is ridiculous. Yeah. What happens next? Karen appealed the decision. And thank God she did. Not just for her and Sharon's sake, but for everyone's. Because in December of 1991, the Minnesota Court of Appeals found that the district court had abused its discretion. The appellate court said that the district court should have listened to the opinions of actual medical experts. I mean, no fucking duh. Who had all made it clear that Karen Thompson was overwhelmingly suitable to be Sharon's guardian. The appellate court also took issue with the district judge likening Sharon to a child.

They wrote, quote, all of the medical testimony established that Sharon has the capacity to reliably express a preference in this case. And she has clearly chosen to return home with Thompson if possible. Yeah. Okay, so that last line, a family of affinity which ought to be accorded respect, was groundbreaking. And with that, Karen Thompson was named Sharon Kowalski's guardian. Oh, my gosh. This case was a major victory. And it's how, in 1992, nearly 10 years after the drunk driving accident, Sharon Kowalski finally got to come home.

Oh, my gosh. Things were obviously different than they had been. Of course. Things were obviously different than they had been. Of course. As it had been pointed out in court, Karen had begun a new relationship with a woman named Patty Bresser, who was also a professor at St. Cloud State University. Karen had really agonized over falling in love with Patty, but Patty said she understood that Karen and Sharon were a package deal. So for the rest of their lives, the three women took care of one another.

Wow. With help from Karen and Patty, Sharon improved tremendously. Fifteen years after the accident, she stood for the first time using a special stand. Oh, my gosh. Twenty-three years after the accident, she spoke for the first time. Their home, which Karen built in 1989, is in Clearwater, Minnesota, and it's basically perfect for Sharon. Everything's accessible, and over the years, they filled the home with equipment to help with Sharon's care. They hired a personal care assistant to help during the day.

There was a lot that needed to be done. Sharon needs to be fed by a feeding tube every two hours, and at night, she needs to be turned every two and a half hours. And Karen and Patty did it. This went on for like 25 years. The three women shared a home until approximately 2015, when Karen and Patty got to the point that they needed more help with Sharon. So as of this article that came out in 2018, Sharon now lives in an adult foster program. And every few weeks, she comes home for like a spa day and they get a haircut. She gets a bath and a massage. The three women travel a lot together. They consider themselves

a family. And in that article that was being written for a Minnesota lawyer in 2018, the three women were preparing to go to Branson to celebrate Sharon's 62nd birthday. Oh, very exciting. Branson. Over the years, Karen and Sharon have received awards from the National Organization for Women and the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force and the Feminist Majority Foundation for their incredible courage throughout their legal battle. Looking back on their struggle, Karen said, We thought that as long as we kept our personal lives separate from our professional lives, we'd be safe. We didn't understand that as long as we're invisible, we're vulnerable. And that's the story of Sharon Kowalski.

Wow. Oh, that was a tough one. Yeah. I can't imagine. It's a nightmare. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah.

So this case was huge for the rights of disabled people, huge for gay and lesbian couples. I mean it's just – it's a big one. Yeah. And it's outrageous that the right thing was so clearly in front of everybody. Exactly. The entire time. It was never a mystery. Keep them to yourself

not until we celebrate we're top golfing it up someday my husband texted you I know and David we never responded because we're assholes and it was radio silence

and Norman hasn't stopped crying I've got your presents you don't want your presents no I want to do it Radio silence. And Norman hasn't stopped crying. I've got your presents. You don't want your presents. No, I want to do it when we celebrate. All right, fine. I'm so antsy. They're not even wrapped, so I should really calm down.

I'm just excited. I took a bit of a swing. I don't know if it's going to be a miss. It's going to be wonderful. You know it. No, it might not be. What if it's a Daffy Duck thong and you wanted the Donald Duck thong? Exactly.

You went Warner Brothers and I'm all Disney all the way. What would you do? I would politely accept my daffy duck thong would you pretend it's what you always wanted uh no i would think i'd make a joke about what a weird present it was and you'd see the devastation on my face there's no way you would buy that for me genuinely thinking it was what I've wanted all my life. Okay, let me think of what I could do that

might conceivably be like really sweet but also a total miss. What if I somehow found the frog poster that you used to have and I got you a new frog poster? Yeah, really nicely framed. Yes, very nicely framed. Clearly, I mean, we dropped some moolah cha-cha on this.

What do you do? I would graciously accept it. What would you do with it? I don't know. Okay, so it's kind of a mystery. Does it go in the living room? Does it go in the kitchen? Yeah, all right.

I'll let you decide. Okay, very good. All right, let's talk about some shitty fucking friends. Good Lord, Brandy, you come in here with your murder talk. That's right. Watched a new program on iD. Of course. Called Murder Among Friends.

No. No. Okay. Yeah, never seen that one before. Never heard of it before, but I did watch an episode of it. Most of this comes from that and from an article for Medium by Nicole Henley. Also Wikipedia. Wikipedia actually stumbled upon this case on Wikipedia.

Sorry. I was actually reading about a different case, not related to this case in any way. But then at the bottom, it did like that. You might also be interested in. Hey, weirdo. You might also like this. It was just like a name. And I was like, oh, is that something to do with this case?

And so I clicked it. And no, it had nothing to do with it. And then I couldn't stop reading about this case that I'm now doing. And so that other case, get the fuck out of here. Yeah, we don't even remember it. I'm going to do that other one, get the fuck out of here. We don't even remember it. I'm going to do that other one too. Okay. It's going to creep me out.

Okay. Ew, does it involve kids? Anyway. Oh, damn it. Anyway, so shout outs to Murder Among Friends and Nicole Henley for Medium and Wikipedia

who has all the court stuff kind of neatly chunked up together. You gave like an hourglass figure, like a sexy. Wikipedia is hot. Is that your site that someone else walks into the room, you have to quickly. I wasn't doing anything. It's where we introduce where.

All right. Get to the story. Jason Sweeney wasn't on maybe the most traditional path, but he knew what he wanted out of life and he was working to make it happen. Jason's dream was to become a Navy SEAL. And he felt that to have the best chance at that, he needed to attend a military academy, specifically Valley Forge Military Academy and College in Wayne, Pennsylvania. So you familiar with it? Yeah. All right. All right. So Jason applied and was accepted, but he couldn't afford the tuition. So Jason did something bold to help him kind of get set on a course to realize his dreams.

At age 16, Jason dropped out of public high school and began working for his dad, Paul, full time at the small construction company he owned in Philadelphia. To save up enough money to go to military school. The Sweeney family lived in Fishtown, which is a blue-collar neighborhood in Philadelphia that was named in honor of Kristen's vagina. Oh, God. You bitch. You had me. You had me.

You had me. I was like, named in honor of what? A fish? I'll have you know, mine always smells freshly caught. Anyway, the Sweeney family was very close. Jason had a 15-year-old sister named Melissa, and his mother Dawn worked as a bank teller. A bank teller? A bank teller, actually.

That's where she tailors the pants of the bankers. By the way, how early are you getting accepted into military school? Like, you said he was 16? He's 16. And he'd already been accepted? Yeah. So you can do high school and military school like you said he was 16 16 and he'd already been accepted yeah so you can do high school in military school oh i didn't yeah it's like a that one was like a high school college kind of crossover situation so he wanted to finish up high school there start kind of a college career and then join the navy icha. It seems that the family really supported Jason

in following his dreams. They were behind him, kind of taking a break from school for a little bit, working up, saving the money. And by May of 2003, Jason was doing really well working for his dad. He was making like $500 a week. And as I mentioned,

he was trying to save that up to put it towards tuition. And he'd gotten all muscly from the manual labor he was doing at the construction. Please don't be creepy about this teenage boy. I feel weird saying it, but on the show, his sister specifically said it. So. Well, if his sister told you that my vagina smelled like fish. She did tell me that. It's hurtful that this is now coming from more than one person. Anyway, the ladies were starting to notice Jason and his.

Yeah, including his sister. Well, you said it. She said it. Anyway, so they were noticing his moozles. Uh-huh. And Jason took a liking to one girl in particular, Justina Morley. Justina was 15 and cute and into Jason. She was also, according to this show that I watched.

What? Why are you being weird? Into role-playing games and dressing up like a sorceress and running through the woods, casting spells to each their own. Uh-oh. Now you're going to get the hate mail. I know. The last time I got judgy about this, people got very riled up.

Do not worry, nerds. I have my own nerdy things. They are just of a different species. It's fine. She's judging you, everyone. And I won't stand for it because I'm not judgy at all. So it's just like it's so, like, offensive that Brandy is anti-RPGs. It's just not my thing.

Right, right. And you know what? When things aren not my thing. Right. Right. And you know what? When things aren't my thing, I don't judge. Oh, yeah. Sure. To each their own, you know. But you, you're judging.

Anyway. You're saying stuff like a Disney adult shouldn't get married ever. There should be a law against it. What if that's the legacy of this podcast? We get federal legislation. Two Disney adults can't marry? I'd be happy if we could just make

weddings at Disney World illegal. That would bring me joy. Oh, no. How many times have you watched that TikTok of that couple being shut down while they're doing a proposal at Disney? I've not. You haven't seen that?

No. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. There's like a guy proposing to his girlfriend at Disney World like in front of Cinderella's Castle. And like they're in an area they're not supposed to be in. And they get like the proposal gets totally interrupted. They get told they have to move. Okay.

I don't like that. I don't. Now. I don't. Now, I would love to watch that. But I don't, I feel like, you know, once someone is down on one knee.

He was down on one knee. Then give the person a minute, right? I mean, how long is a proposal gonna take? Anyway. Why don't they want you to propose at Disney?

I don't know. Maybe fucking Woody was walking through. I don't they want you to propose at Disney? I don't know. Maybe fucking Woody was walking through. I don't know. Woody is anti-Disney adults. He's like, this is for kids. Anyway, back to the story. Toward the end of May 2003, Jason confided in his mom that he'd met a girl he really liked, Justina.

They'd been dating for a couple of weeks by this point, and he said she was super cute and sweet, and he couldn't wait to introduce her to the family. Unfortunately, that was an introduction Jason would never be able to make. On the evening of May 30th, 2003, Jason left his family's row house in Fishtown to meet Justina for a date, and he never returned home. His family reported him missing, and the police reached out to Justina Morley along with some of Jason's other friends and they kind of all said the same thing that he was supposed to meet them that night but he never showed up they'd never seen him the Sweeney's were they didn't admit to the murder right away no they sure didn't the Sweeney's were obviously distraught. Jason wouldn't just not come home.

They knew something horrible must have happened to him, and they were right. A short time after Jason was reported missing, I'm pretty sure it was like the very next day, but it's a bit unclear. It's kind of reported different ways and different places. Some teenage boys were walking through

a wooded area near the Delaware River known as the Trails when they spotted bloody bones. Oh, God. They initially thought maybe that they had stumbled upon like a dead deer. Yeah. But as they walked kind of further into the wooded area, they discovered human remains and called 911. and called 911. Police came out immediately and it was definitely human remains,

but the body was so badly beaten. Oh my gosh. The head had been bludgeoned so badly that the person was completely unrecognizable. Oh my God. There were teeth found in the grass surrounding the body. Parts of the victim's face was missing. It was horrific.

Initially, police thought that this must have been a robbery. The victim's pockets had been turned out. An empty wallet was found nearby. This would be a hell of a robbery.. This would be a hell of a robbery. It sure would be a hell of a robbery. Yeah, no. They didn't think that. Come on. What? Just remember what you said.

Okay. I say a lot of stuff. Took a little note in your head about, oh no, this couldn't be a robbery. That'd be too crazy. Alright. Well, it would be. Sure would be. Like I said, an empty wallet was found nearby. There was no ID on it. There were

all kinds of things around the body that had clearly been used to murder this person. There was a bloody rock. There was a hatchet. There were all kinds of things that had just been left there. The police obviously were trying to ID this body. They went through missing persons reports to try and figure out who this was. In the meantime, a medical examiner took a look at the remains and put the time of death somewhere about 24 hours before this body had been found.

Almost all of the injuries to this person were about the face and head. But the victim also had a pretty severe injury to their hand, but it had partially healed. So the medical examiner knew that that was a separate injury. But it had partially healed. So the medical examiner knew that that was a separate injury. Right. And in looking through the missing persons reports that they had in the area, they found the report on 16-year-old Jason Sweeney. And when his parents had reported him missing, they had specifically noted that he had a deep cut to his hand from working construction. You know, and I was even going to say, like,

I'm surprised they didn't make the parents wait 24 hours to, I mean, I hate that they do that. Yeah. Yeah. So I think they had made the report but hadn't done anything other than just, like, contact Jason's friends. And they had said, no, man, he was supposed to come, but he never did. Yeah, but in some of these stories they basically tell the parents to fuck off yeah 24 hours yeah and so when they discovered this kind of alignment that there was this injury to this victim's hand and that they had a missing person who had specifically

noted they would have an injury to their hand the police went to the Sweeney home showed them a picture showed Jason's father and sister a picture of a hand with an injury and said, is this Jason's hand? And they looked at it and they knew immediately that it was him. At that point, Jason's family gave police a list of some of the people Jason had been hanging around with. He had a kind of a group of friends that he had been close to for years, but had recently kind of distanced himself from at his parents' request, basically. Jason had this group of friends and his parents just really believed that they were headed in the wrong direction.

Apparently, there's this area of Philadelphia, there's an area near Fishtown where there's just... A butthole? A butthole. No, where there's just major drug issues. There's like they're openly selling heroin and stuff in the area. And these friends of his were known to frequent that area. And his parents were like, you know what? Being friends with them is just going to put you off course in what your goals for your life are.

We'd recommend that you stay away from them. Well, that never works. Never works. Yeah. But I'm with you, parents. Yeah. Yeah. So among those group of friends was Edward Batzig Jr.

I believe he went by Ed. And Jason had been friends with him since the fourth grade. Like they've been best friends for years. And then shortly before this, he'd actually gone with the Sweeneys on a family vacation to Florida. And something about his behavior on that trip made Jason's parents be like, we don't want you to see him anymore. This is not a good friend. This is not a good influence. This is not someone you need to be Jason's parents be like, we don't want you to see him anymore. Wow. This is not a good friend. This is not a good influence.

This is not someone you need to be around. Right. And so, according to Jason's parents, he'd started distancing himself from them. Ed had done some work for Jason's dad sometimes. Like, he'd helped out at the construction company. And, like, from that point on, after this family vacation, they were like, he's not welcome at our house anymore. He's not. Wow. Yeah. Okay.

And another two people who were part of that group were Nicholas and Dominic Coya. So they were a little bit older. Well, Dominic was. Dominic was 17. Nicholas was 16. And the four of them had been a friend group for several years. And Jason's parents saw kind of the same thing going on with them. The Coya brothers had been raised mostly by their father. And he was kind of maybe just not a real consistent figure in their life. Their mom had left when they were young. And they just were getting mixed up in all kinds of stuff that they just didn't want Jason involved with.

And so as a whole, they'd been like, just stop, you know, stop fraternizing with these people. Right. Which, you know, like you said, never works. Yeah. And so the police tracked down. What do you do, though? I know. What do you do? I don't know.

I think that would be so hard. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I don't know I think that would be so hard yeah so initially the police talked to all three of these people separately they talked to Justina separately and all of them said the same thing they had planned to meet up with Justin in the woods that night

in that area the trails and he never showed up something must have happened to him before he got to us no but then people started talking In that area, the trails. And he never showed up. Something must have happened to him before he got to us. No. But then people started talking around town because nobody could keep their mouth shut. Yeah. And Dominic Coya and Nicholas Coya were bragging to people that they'd plotted this whole thing. They'd planned to rob Jason. And they'd used Justina to put their plan in motion.

So turns out that Justina was dating Jason, but she was also sleeping with both Coya brothers and Jason's best friend, Ed Batzig. And that they'd all come up with this idea together because Jason was doing really well for himself. He was making $500 a week and they knew he got paid on Fridays. So Justina was supposed to lure him to the trails. Say she wanted to have like a little tryst in the woods with him. And then while she had him like down on the ground, the others were going to jump out and rob him and take the cash that he'd been paid that week for work. Nope. work. Nope.

So they bring in Justina at first and she comes in with her mom and again initially says no, didn't have anything to do with it. They bring Eddie in and he was the first to confess.

That's exactly what they had done. They had lured Jason into the woods. Justina had promised to have sex with him in the woods that day. She'd got him to lay down. She'd gotten him to pull his pants down even. So he'd be so vulnerable. And then as soon as he was like on the ground and she was over him distracting him, the other three jumped out and attacked him.

Eddie Batzig, his best friend since the fourth grade, delivered the first blow. He hit him three times in the head with a hatchet. Oh, my God. Three times in the head with a hatchet. Oh, my God. He told the police during his interrogation that Jason cried and asked him to stop and said, I'm bleeding and pleaded for them to stop. And then the Coya brothers joined in. They had a hammer and a rock. And they beat him to death.

Right there in the woods. And so Justina just sat there and watched this whole thing? Yep. This is unreal. Yeah. They took his money out of his wallet, his $500 that he'd been paid for the week of work, and split it up between the four of them. $125 a piece. And then they hugged each other.

Really? In celebration of what they had done. Yeah. And then they'd used the money that they'd split up between them to buy heroin, marijuana, and okay, all of the articles put this really weird. Was Xanax not a thing in 2003? Why? What did they say?

The tranquilizer known as Xanax. I must have been hot on the scene. Was Xanax new in 2003? These are the questions I can't answer. I don't know the answer to that. I'm kind of an ibuprofen gal myself. Yeah. So they bought drugs and then they, in the words of Dominic Coya, they partied beyond redemption. That's an interesting way of phrasing it.

And they left Jason's body in the woods. They went back to the Coya's house and that's where they partied, the four of them together. How do people get so fucked up at such a young age? I have no idea. Yeah, we're talking about a 15-year-old, two 16-year-olds and a 17-year-old. Beat their lifelong friend to death for $500. Not even $500, $125 each. It wasn't for the money. I mean $500. $125 each. It wasn't for the money.

I mean, right. Yeah. Yeah. They each, when they were brought in for interrogations, admitted to all of this and admitted that they'd been planning it for a couple of weeks. They actually had planned a weekend trip to like the Jersey Shore.

Mm-hmm. And they planned to rob him there. And they were going to I think leave him there and then he told them that he was going to have to work over the weekend and so he couldn't go and so he messed up the plan they were going to leave him there dead? I don't know

I don't know according to another friend who heard about all this after it happened Dominic Coya bragged that they had planned this murder for weeks. So I assume that they were going to murder him at the shore too. But I'm kind of shocked that this was planned for weeks. Yeah.

So they planned – like for two weeks they planned it and then when they went to put it in action to go take the weekend at the shore, Jason said, you know, I can't go. I have to work, which is probably, I'm guessing, an excuse like, oh, my parents won't let me go. Right. Yeah. And so they'd come up with this alternate plan for Justina to lure him into the woods. Yeah. And then they would do it there. They said that before they did it, before they went to the woods to lie and wait for him, that they listened to the song Helter Skelter by the Beatles 42 times to amp them up because they knew that was the song that Charles Manson created his whole weirdos. All right. Fine. Crazy thing about. Yeah. Yeah. 42 times. Yeah. These kids gross me out. Yeah. Yeah. Don't give a shit. Yeah. So obviously they were all arrested.

So initially they wanted to try all of them as adults and they wanted to seek the death penalty for all three of the boys. OK. Did they want to try them all at the same time? They did. OK. They wanted to try them all together. They didn't try them all at the same time? They did. OK. They wanted to try them all together. They wanted to try them all as adults and they wanted to seek the death penalty for Eddie Batzig and both of the Coya brothers, Dominic and Nicholas Coya. Justina Morley was 15 at the time.

So she – there were certain things that kind of worked in her favor by being that age. She didn't qualify for the death penalty. by being that age. She didn't qualify for the death penalty. She also immediately lawyered up and her lawyer really argued in the court that she had a really tough childhood. She'd had multiple suicide attempts before. She was on antidepressants. She had problems with substance use disorder. Like there were all kinds of extenuating circumstances in her childhood. And he tried to fight to keep her charges in juvenile court. Ultimately, a judge said no, like this case is too heinous. And a judge determined that she would be tried as an adult. Like at the time that they decided they were going to seek the death penalty for

these three teenage boys, a Supreme Court ruling came down that you cannot put a juvenile to death. And so prosecutors were like, oh, dang, that's off the table, I guess. Hoping to kill some kids. Yeah. Yeah. We're hoping to kill some kids because they killed a kid. That'll teach him. Yeah.

And so this case moved forward with the death penalty off the table. Nobody was eligible for the death penalty. Dominic Coya was like two months shy of 18 when this took place. And so death penalty taken off the table. But what did happen is Justina Morley's attorney separated her from the case. She agreed to take a plea deal and to then testify against Eddie Batzig and Nicholas and Dominic Coya. And then the two defenses really worked against each other. Justina into their fold and then used her as a weapon to, you know, lure Jason to the scene and that she was kind of an unwitting participant. I don't know. I know. And so the defense strategy for Eddie Batzig and the two Coyas was that, no, Justina Morley was the ringleader. It had all been her idea.

Well, I don't know about that either. And that they just kind of got wrapped up. In the actual murder itself? Because of a temptress. Okay. Yes. Calm down, everybody. Yeah.

She was a siren. Gross. Yeah. She slept with all of them. She used sex to get them to do what she wanted them to do. It was all her idea the entire time. in which she said that she liked her position of power and her position as a temptress in the group and how she liked how that had made her feel powerful. And so the defense used that against the prosecution at trial. But Justina took the stand and she said that she had only written those things to try and fit in with the group,

even after the fact that she'd never really meant them. It was just so she could still fit in with Dominic Coya, who she believed was, you know, kind of the leader and she wanted to look cool to him is the reason that she wrote those letters. You know, I would also believe that she did enjoy her position in the group. I absolutely do. And that still to me doesn't make her the ringleader. Oh, I agree. I don't think there necessarily has to be a ringleader.

Right. That's what I think. Yeah. I think you get four very troubled people together and start floating an idea around and it snowballs. And yeah, I don't necessarily think there had to be one person in charge of the whole thing. Yeah, but in the court system, we love for one person. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. The defense did try to argue that all three, Eddie and Nicholas and Dominic, were under the

influence of drugs at the time of this. And so they lacked the intent to kill that is required to support a first-degree murder conviction. Well, didn't they plan this thing? Yeah. They fucking planned it out. They all said they planned it out. Well, OK. But the defense tried to argue that, you know, the lack of intent meant you couldn't find them guilty of first-degree murder. And at the very most, they had committed third-degree murder.

Oh, wow. No, I'm afraid not. No, but in response to that, the prosecution played clips of each person's interrogation with the police where they admitted what they had done, how they'd planned it, how they'd listened to Helter Skelter 42 times. I mean, everybody, all of these people were talking. Nobody kept anything a secret. Justina Morley was kind of like the prosecution's star witness. So her deal, she pled guilty and was sentenced to 17 and a half to 35 years in prison.

They also had another friend, a friend of Dominic Coyas testified. He's the one I mentioned earlier. His name was Joshua Staub. And he said that leading up to Jason's murder, they had mentioned that they were plotting something. They were planning something. They were going to lure Jason. But he wasn't sure that they meant they were going to murder him. He thought they were going to rob him because specifically Eddie Batzig knew that on that particular day, Jason would have $500 cash on him because it was payday. The defenses claim that the intent couldn't exist because all of them were under the influence of drugs at the time.

The prosecution was able to put some holes in that because during Dominic's interrogation by the police, they asked him if he was under the influence of drugs at the time. And he said, no, I was as sober as I am now. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah. The prosecution told the jury that while robbery might have been the motive here, it wasn't the real motive. It was jealousy. The group was jealous of Jason's success in life and the path that he was on. You know, he had chosen a different path for himself. He had big goals and he was really working hard to make them. And they were jealous of it.

Yeah. And so the money was just a bonus for them. Right. It was really about, yeah, being jealous of their friend. The defense contested that that was not true, that it was about robbery. It's clearly not. It's not. It's not.

You can't tell me that these four kids killed someone who was five. You don't kill someone so brutally if all you want is their money. They beat him so badly that only one cheekbone was left unbroken in his entire face. Yeah.

No. Really loving this story, by the way. What a great one. It's terrible. So bad. Why are you laughing? Ultimately, Eddie Batzig and Nicholas and Dominic Coya were convicted.

And the first degree murder conviction at that time in Pennsylvania held a mandatory life without parole sentence. Oh, wow. Yeah. So that happened in 2004. But didn't that Supreme Court ruling— Oh, okay. So this happened like in 2004, 2005. And in 2012, the Supreme Court ruled that it was a mandatory life sentence for a juvenile was unconstitutional. Yeah.

And so— Gosh, sorry I'm so knowledgeable. I know, right? It's all because of you. You always cover these terrible cases where kids do awful stuff. So that ruling, Miller versus Alabama, we've talked about it multiple times on this podcast. That came down in 2012. And then in 2013, Pennsylvania decided that it wasn't just automatically retroactive.

Oh. Yeah. Like each person would have to go in and appeal their sentence and go through a resentencing hearing. And then a judge would determine if that life without parole sentence was put in unjustly, essentially. But the Supreme Court decided that it was unconstitutional. Yeah, but it leaves it up to the state to determine if it's retroactive or not. Yeah. I don't love that.

Yeah. So what did they decide? So they decided it wasn't automatically retroactive, but that each person who had been sentenced under that, they could go in and, yes, they could go in for resentencing. So in 2015, Nicholas Coya had a resentencing hearing and the judge said, no, he didn't deserve to be resentenced, that his crime was particularly heinous. be resentenced, that his crime was particularly heinous. And the only punishment that fit the crime in this particular instance was life in prison without the possibility of parole. And later, the same was decided for both Dominic Coya and Eddie Batzig. They were not resentenced. They all three remain in prison with life sentences without the possibility of parole. It's such a difficult thing for me because I think this case is horribly heinous.

Also, they were 16 and 17-year-old kids. I don't know. I just have trouble – like putting somebody who's 16 years old away for prison without the possibility of parole, you're giving a 16-year-old a death sentence. Yeah. This is one of those things. To me, it's not hard. I mean I just feel like we can't do that. I know.

What they did was terrible. But I think we have to treat juveniles differently than we do adults. I mean the science is there. The science tells us that your brain is not fully done developing yet. You don't have all the proper reasoning skills yet. And the thing is when I hear about kids who do something like this, I know that if I heard anything about their lives growing up, I'd be in tears. Oh, yeah. Absolutely.

You know? Yeah. And you're bringing in other issues here. We're talking about substance use disorders. And, yeah. Ugh. Justina Morley, though, because she took the plea deal and she was sentenced to 17 and a half to 30 years in prison. She has been paroled.

She was released in December of 2020. Wow. Yeah. I don't know how I feel about that. I know. Yeah. She's out. yeah she's out Dominic Coya wrote

a memoir why'd you say it like that oh gosh because he changed like his whole story at the when he wrote his memoir it really yeah he proclaimed his innocence gave like said that he was under the influence of drugs at the time

that none of it was his idea. He wasn't a willing participant. Okay. Apologized to Jason's family. Just completely different than anything he'd ever said leading up to that. The Sweeney family started a foundation in Jason Sweeney's name to give scholarships to students at Valley Forge Military Academy. They started this right after his death. I wasn't able to see if it's still active today.

Right, right. They did start that in his honor. A graphic novel has been written about this murder case. It's called Fishtown. I don't know very much about it. There was also a CSI episode that was like, you know, ripped from the headlines. I see. Very good of you to remember the name of the show and perhaps some details about it. Yeah. And Jason Sweeney's sister, Melissa, was interviewed on this program that I watched, Murder Among Friends.

And obviously she just talked about how this impacted their family and how Jason... It'd be terrible. Yeah. Jason had all these big dreams that he never got to never got to see because of this horrible thing these people that called themselves his friends

did to him. And that's the story of some terrible fucking friends. Boy, I need another break from this podcast. Let's. Oh, my gosh. That was rough. Oh, my gosh. It feels like so long since we've been.

I know. We've done this. But should we take some questions from our Discord? Yes. To get in the Discord, all you have to do is join our Patreon at the $5 level. Or higher. Or higher. That's right. Ooh. Get in the Discord. All you have to do is join our Patreon at the $5 level. Or higher. Or higher.

That's right. Ooh. What is wrong with people, asks Brandy. If you stumbled across it one day, would you ever read Teenaged London's diary? Oh. I would like to say that I would respect her privacy and not read it. But I know that who I am as a person. I know respect her privacy and not read it. But I know that who I am as a person. I know. I'd for sure read it.

Oh, yeah. It's a real test of growth right there. Yeah. That would be so hard not to read. Yeah. Maybe you could call me over and I could read it. Right. Yes.

And then I could tell you about it. Yeah. On the podcast. Yeah. That you could call me over and I could read it. Right. Yes. And then I could tell you about it. Yeah. On the podcast. Yeah. That sounds great. Yeah. That wouldn't be a violation of anything. Ooh.

Witchy Bird asked, Brandy, will you wear a garter at your wedding for David? This feels fun, but also feels like it might contradict with an ever new. No. Not interested. No garter. No garter toss. No pulling stuff off my body while my family watches. Absolutely not. No, not interested. No garter, no garter toss, no pulling stuff off my body while my family watches.

Absolutely not. Oh, why not? Absolutely not. What if your family specifically requested it? I've always thought that was so weird. Absolutely not. So freaking weird. Nope.

Norm and I just got fully naked at our wedding. Out of Work Supermodel says, Brandy, I've been hearing a lot of people recommending double shampooing your hair when you wash it and was wondering if you had an opinion on it as someone who basically has a PhD in hair. I always double shampoo my hair. Always. I always do, too, because you told me to. So this is my thoughts on it. The first one, the first shampoo washes away product, whatever. The second shampoo cleanses the hair. I mean, I double cleanse my face. Might as well. I am a double shampooer. Oh, my gosh.

What? Brandy's Zoom anxiety asks, Brandy and Kristen, what is the least amount of money you'd accept to eat a spider? Someone asked me this recently, and I immediately thought of you guys. Hmm. Is the spider alive? That's what I need to know that, too. Let's say it's dead. Okay, it's dead. Dead spider.

What's the least amount of money I'd accept to eat it? Hmm. It's going to have to be enough money that it significantly improves my life. 50 grand. Not enough. You wouldn't eat a dead spider for 50 grand? Maybe I would. 75 grand.

Maybe I would. $75,000. Okay. What are the conditions? Can I, like, swallow it like a pill? Sure. Like, chase it with a big old glass of water? Do whatever you want with that spider. All right.

$75,000. Wow. How much would you do it for? Well, okay. $5. Wow. How much would you do it for? $5.

Okay, I'm trying to think of like the least amount. Gosh, I mean, I'd probably do it for $20,000. Probably $15,000. Possibly $10,000. I mean, it's dead. You'd do it for $10,000? Yeah, I mean you do it for 10 grand yeah maybe I mean Norm would be so mad at me

if I didn't if he found out Norm would do it for 100 bucks yeah he totally would he would do it for 100 dollars he'd be like yeah 100 bucks

absolutely whatever it's dead it's dead okay what if the spider's alive oh god oh boy

yikes oh that freaked me out. Can I smash it and then eat it? Got to throw it down the hatch. You got to throw it back. God. You're grossing me out. I don't know.

It would be a lot more. Yeah. 500 grand. That's my offer to you. 500 grand to consume a lot. I mean, I don't think I could turn that down. I think I'd have to do it. Right.

I know. I know. Terrible. Cody with a K says, Brandy, are you a secret Disney adult and you're afraid to admit it to Kristen? No, I mean, I wouldn't say I'm a Disney adult. I would.

I'd say you're a Disney adult, you freak. You went to the... Yeah, I went to Beauty and the Beast. Yeah. Yeah, I like Disney movies. I don't... I've been to Disney World once when I was a kid. I don't have, like, Disney themed items in my house.

Do you miss Disney movies? Do you... Is there one that just you haven't watched yet? Probably. No. I've never seen Moana. Would you like to see Moana? I'd watch it.

I don't have like a big – OK. I feel nostalgic about the old Disney movies. I'm not particularly – like I'll watch the new ones when they came out. Like we watched Turning Red like we'll have family movie nights. I do have children. Yeah. But see, you're hiding behind that now, but there was a time when you didn't. Yeah, and you saw like the live, the Beauty and the Beast when it came out.

I did go see that in the theater, but I think that was more about. And you brought like candy for the kids. I did not. To lure them to you. I did not. No, I think I just like Disney a normal amount. I am a Harry Potter adult, though. Uh-huh.

For sure. Yeah. For sure a Harry Potter adult. Definitely. I'm not ashamed of it. Yeah. It's funny, though. Like, if you're not a Disney adult, why do you have the Pluto underwear?

I don't have Pluto underwear. To me, it's weird that it's lingerie. You know, like who's getting turned on, really? There, now I've kink shamed and I've Disney adult shamed. Wonderful. Oh, my gosh. Kristen got in my car to go to lunch today in a podcast I was listening to. I just started playing because my phone was synced to my car. And I I was listening to, like just started playing up

because my phone was synced to my car and I was like, oh my gosh, hold on. I got to pause it. I got to pause it. I was listening to a recent episode of This Is Actually Happening. And it was this guy who like learned what all of his kinks were and he was like exploring them extensively and talking about how he explored his kinks and found out what he was into. And I was like, this is going to set Kristen off for sure. Like legitimately the point that it was at when I paused it, he was explaining what puppy play is. What is puppy play?

Ew, you pretend you're a puppy? Ew. And how he thought he'd never be into that. And then it turns out he was. Oh, God. That's an episode I'll skip. Cat Attack wants to know, if you were on Survivor, for what reason would you be voted off? A, doing badly in challenges.

B, not getting along with your tribe mates. C, being a strategic threat. Or D, other. Other. D, other. Because I would just be like losing my fucking mind anytime a bug was anywhere near me. Oh, yeah. That would do it.

Yeah. To me, it would be doing badly in challenges. There's no question. Oh, ChaChaSlide asks, what's the weirdest kink you've heard of and why is it absolutely not for you? Let me tell you about this podcast I just listened to. Okay, I'll tell you the one that really freaks me out. What? You know what?

I think it has to do with my Disney adult phobia. Adults acting as babies. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I'm not into it. Yeah. So quit asking. That's a big one.

That's a good. That's not even that weird. Like, that's a pretty mainstream kink. I am so grossed out. Let me tell you what this guy did on this show. Okay. So he started out. Like he discovered that he was kinky at the very young age of like six when he was turned on by an episode of Batman where someone was tied up.

And he didn't know really what was happening in his body at that age. Yeah. But he got some feelings. Yeah. And then as he got older, he began exploring that more and more. And now he's into chastity play, which is where a cage is put around his junk. And should he become aroused, it will stab and cut his penis. Wow.

Yeah. I am less disturbed by that than if he was like, yeah, I mean, seriously. You want to cut your dick up, go ahead. You know? God bless. Oh, cha-cha slide. Blow it, cha-cha slide. Blow it after cha-cha slide. So they ask that question, what's the weirdest kink you've ever heard and why is it absolutely not for you?

And then they follow up, and of course, without judging the people who like this kink. Honey, you have not entered the no judgment zone. Can't have it both ways. Touch us live. Oh, Hey Teach wants to know, what did you get rejuvenated on this break? Interestingly enough, Kristen had to get her vagina unjuvenated because it was too tight from the last time. Wait, so now am I getting compliments? Is it like fishy

and too tight? Brandy, you're just obsessed with me. Yeah, see? Ask Brandy, what did you do for London's birthday? We had a sweet little donut party for her. It was too sweet. Do you get it?

Do you get it, though? Too sweet. And then David, Jack, and I all wore donut shirts, and we served donuts. And London wore this cute little pink dress. It looked like it had sprinkles all over it. She was adorable. She was so cute. This was the most well-attended two-year-old's birthday party in all the land.

It absolutely was. Yeah, we showed up and David teased Norm for not wearing his donut shirt. So next time, please make sure Norman has a shirt to wear. Absolutely. He felt like a fool. Oh, not enough potty humor says, can we please talk about how crazy it is that there's no cicadas in KC this year? It's so quiet. This is a thing.

Like the cicadas are only bad every so many years. Yeah. Most times it's not like we don't have – there's a whole thing about this. I'm sorry. I just read a question that is kind of blowing my mind a little bit. What's the question? Okay. There were balloons everywhere says,

I randomly received LGTC stickers in the mail like two weeks ago. My mom and husband both swear that they didn't order them for me. Did you guys decide to start sending out surprise stickers or are my mom and husband just really dedicated to this, not ruining the surprise?

Okay, so I'm the one who sends those out. I mean, I don't think I would have sent. Just stickers of a random person. Although, oh my God, you know what? What? I might have. Okay, okay.

What did you do? I was clearing out my desk a couple weeks ago, and I found, like, a random envelope that I had addressed, and there was a stamp on it. No, there was no stamp on it. I had addressed it, and there were stickers in it. And I was like, well, I don't know why this is here. I probably should send it out. I wonder if— Maybe. Well don't know why this is here. I probably should send it out. I wonder if – Maybe.

Well, that's our gift to you. Yeah. Congratulations on the stickers. Kate Reese asks, if your legs are not the same length, is one too short or is one too long? I don't think mine are the same length. So do you have one that's too short or do you have one that's too long? Are you trying to make this into like a glass half full or glass half empty thing? You think your legs are different lengths?

I don't know. I walk kind of funny. Don't you probably just need to like go to the chiropractor or something? I'm scared that. I walk kind of funny. Don't you probably just need to like go to the chiropractor or something? I'm scared that I'll... I'm scared because of a story

you told me. I know. I know. I'm scared to go to the chiropractor too. All right. Ooh, French garlic people.

What is... First of all, what does that mean? Second of all, your question. Brandy, have you had any drama surrounding wedding planning? I just lost my best friend of 25 years over me asking to be put first for once.

Oh. Okay. First of all, they were never your friends then. Like, that sucks. I want to know more about that story. That's terrible. It's your wedding and no my only my only wedding party is this bitch over here

so everything's been fine wow hmm Brandy all I ask is that I be the number one center of attention yeah I will wear a white dress and it will be bigger than yours what would you do

nothing what if i got oh this is tacky to say what if i got like a princess diana replica dress but it was very poorly done because you know obviously i didn't want to spend the money right uh-huh and i was This is my bridesmaid dress. Yeah, I think I'd ask you not to wear it. Because you were jealous of how good I looked in it? No. What if I looked so bad in it that you were like, oh, actually. Yeah, what if, okay, what if I looked so bad in it that, you know, at first you're like, what the hell is she doing? But then you catch a glimpse of us in the mirror and you're like, my God.

I look like amazing next to her in this ugly dress. Here's the deal. You know that I would never think that. But what if this one time you did and you're like, yep, you know what? Yeah, fine. Wear your princess dye dress. Pant or skirt suit asks, Brandy, how do you not get makeup on your pillowcase? I do.

I do get makeup on my pillowcase. God, you're so freaking weird. And I then wash it with OxiClean so that it's beautiful and white again. I think about you a lot. I'll have you know. Not kind thoughts. When I'm doing my skincare routine. Your 32-step skin care routine.

Oh, when I get a pimple, I really have some thoughts about you, ma'am. Because I'm like, how much money have I invested? How much time have I invested? Brandy's over there snoring with her makeup on. That's right. With perfectly dewy, clear skin. Ooh. Suspicious Midwest Salad asks if you had a chance to watch an autopsy be performed, would you?

Nope. Yes. Nope. Absolutely. Absolutely not. I'm busy that day. Ooh. Little Taste of Peter says, Stranger Things, yay or nay?

If yay, how do you feel about volume two? If nay, how dare you? Yay. All the way. Watched it. Loved it. Cried. Felt all the things.

Including. Sorry. Okay. I hate to cut us off there, but I have to pee so badly. Okay, great. So should we do Supreme Court inductions? I'm afraid we shall. All right.

We will be reading your names and favorite cookies. And to get inducted on this podcast, all you have to do is join our Patreon at the $7 level or higher. Avery Fawcett. Warm Nestle Tollhouse chocolate chip. I think I said Avery's name wrong. Let me do it again. Okay. Avery Fawcett.

All right. I think I said her favorite cookie warm. Worm. Nestle. Anyway, Shelly Sawyer Curtis. Chocolate peanut butter, sea salt, caramel. That's a lot of things going on. Erica Wilson.

Homemade shortbread. Charlie Beathers. Pumpkin chocolate chip. Lenny. Pizzels. Or pizzles. Oh, it's pizzels. Oh, pizzle is like penis.

Oh, yeah. Your pizzle all up in my vajizzle. No, that's not what I meant. That's not what you meant? No. You know, bully sticks? When you look at the ingredients, it says, like, bowl pizzle or something. I think.

And then you look that up, and you're like, penis. Anyway, I don't think Lenny's favorite cookies. I said, like, a snip-top. The shizzle, my pizzle. You thought that's where I was going with it? No. I was going with it? No. I was being 100% serious. My bad.

Julia Schwarthoff. Oh, ironically, Snoop Style Brownies. Hope Lincoln. Brookie. Lori Gowan. Warm Chocolate Chip. Brookie. Lori Gowan. Warm chocolate chip. Juliana. Little Pink Kristen.

Laura Daly. Coconut chocolate chip cookies. Adriana P. Chex Mix chocolate chip. Ooh, I bet that's good. Ariel H. Samoas. Lucia Cunningham.

Oh, hey, Lucia. I know Lucia. She's my friend. Oh, excuse me. Frozen Thin Mints. Samoas. Lucia Cunningham. Oh, hey, Lucia. I know Lucia. She's my friend. Oh, excuse me. Frozen Thin Mints. That's right. You're not my only friend. And Lucia has not once said that my vagina smells like bitch.

Or had a whole town named after her. At least she hasn't said it to my face. Anya Rowland what double double Jocke they are like a Norwegian version of Swedish Mandelflarn

and since they are double layered and full of chocolate plus they have no almonds in them they are obviously far superior to Mandelflorn. Okay, let me try that again. Double scalded florn. Okay, well, there you go. That was no better.

It was wonderful. Brett Cowden. Oat and pecan brittle cookies from Desert Person. Oh, Dessert Person. Pike, Claire Steph, it's My Priestess of Baking Well, boy, that was a mouthful And I handled it beautifully

This abduction This is terrible Vicky, less Brown butter bourbon pecan chocolate chip With salt on top Angie Peterson. Oatmeal raisin. Wow, imagine being a simple gal.

Mesa. Half-baked chocolate chip. Welcome to the Supreme Court. Oh, Lord. Well, boy, we're back. Oh, thank you for all of your support. We're boy, we're back. Thank you, everyone, for all of your support. We're so happy to be back. If you're looking for other ways to support us, please find us on social media.

We're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Patreon. Please remember to subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen and head on over to Apple Podcasts and leave us a five-star rating and review. And be sure to join us next week. When we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned. And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up

in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. I got my info from an episode of West 57th titled Bitter Quarrel, A Test of Love, as well as reporting from the New York Times and an article for the Minnesota Lawyer by Benjamin Kwan

titled The Minnesota Legal Fight That Changed the Course of the Gay Rights Movement. That's a mouthful. It sure is. I got my info from an episode of Murder Among Friends, an article for Medium by Nicole Henley, ABC News, the Los Angeles Times, and Wikipedia. For a full list of our sources, visit lgtcpodcast.com. Any errors are, of course, ours, but please don't take our word for it.

Go read their stuff. Woo!