Let's Go To Court! - 224: The Kidnapping of Adolph Coors III & a Disappearance

Episode Date: August 24, 2022

Adolph Coors III was in an enviable position. His grandfather had founded the Coors Brewing company, and by 1960, Adolph Coors III was the company’s CEO. He had a wife and four children. He was one of Colorado’s most influential business people. But that also made him a target. So when Adolph’s car was discovered abandoned on Turkey Creek Bridge, just two miles from his home, the FBI quickly stepped in. Then Brandi tells us about the disappearance of Gail Katz. When Gail met Robert Bierenbaum, she thought she’d found the perfect guy. He was studying to become a doctor. He spoke multiple languages. He even flew planes. Their dates were incredibly romantic. But over time, Gail came to see that Robert was far from perfect. And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: “The case of Adolph Coors” by Mara Bovsun for The New York Daily News “On the run from one murder, he accidentally committed another – and joined the FBI’s “Most Wanted” list,” by Cheryl Eddy for Gizmodo “How an escaped convict terrorized the Coors beer dynasty,” by Seth Ferranti for Vice Forensic Files “Bitter Brew” “A look back at the Coors kidnapping case,” FBI.gov “Court upholds conviction of Joseph Corbett,” Associated Press “Corbett faces life in prison, accepts fate in cold silence,” Associated Press “Corbett attorneys complete defense,” by James D. Harpster for The Daily Sentinel “Jury starts study of Coors evidence,” Associated Press “Anatomy of a murder,” by Robert Sanchez for Denver’s Mile High Magazine In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “Do No Harm” episode 20/20 “Ex-surgeon confesses he took wife's 'body out of the airplane over the ocean’” by Joseph Rhee, Keren Schiffman, Gerry Wagschal, and Lauren Effron, ABC News “Gail Katz” chillingcrimes.com “Gail Katz Bierenbaum Murder: Her Cause of Death” by Alyssa Choiniere, heavy.com “Ex-Plastic Surgeon Finally Admits To Murdering Wife At 20-Year Parole Hearing: Report” by Megan Carpentier, oxygen.com “People v. Bierenbaum” casetext.com YOU’RE STILL READING? My, my, my, you skeezy scunch! You must be hungry for more! We’d offer you some sausage brunch, but that gets messy. So how about you head over to our Patreon instead? (patreon.com/lgtcpodcast). At the $5 level, you’ll get 35+ full length bonus episodes, plus access to our 90’s style chat room!  

One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court. On this episode, I'll be talking about the kidnapping of Adolph Coors. And I'll be talking about a disappearance. Why you got two little pink Kristens on here? What do you got going on over there?

Oh, probably I have this open on my computer downstairs and I also have it open right here in front of you. Did that really seem important to mention at the top of the show? This is the type of quality content people are tuning in for week after week. And also,

we already recorded one episode this week so there are limited things for us to discuss. We have nothing to say to one another. Not a goddamn thing. The only thing I can tell you is I also have this document up on my other computer. Okay, great. That's right.

I've got two computers because I'm really rich. Mmm. Mmm. Jesus. Do you think my, I think my, What? People are going to hear this.

Well, yeah, if you do that. Well, I'm not going to do that, but sometimes I, you know, I got to move and groove in my suits sometimes. Everyone,

she's wearing overalls and she looks adorable. Thank you. I do actually feel adorable in them, so thank you. but you're like looking for a reason

to be a little insecure. I am, of course. And so like you're inventing like, what if I jingle my overall straps? Then it'll make noise on the podcast. I'm like, yeah, if you jingle them, but maybe just don't jingle them. Hey, I'll jingle if I want to all the live long day. Jingle, jangle. That's how this booty is dangled. Am I right?

What is that? I made that up myself. Okay, great. No, you didn't. It's from a song. What's it from? Is it Missy Elliott? I don't know.

Who knows? Again, it's going to be a great episode because we've done this twice in two days. Which means that there's a new episode. A hot new bonus episode out on our Patreon. You know what I was thinking? I was thinking maybe we should streamline the Patreon ads so we're not going through all the tiers necessarily. Oh, yeah. What do you want to do?

Hey, support us on Patreon. Oh, I like that. We've got bonus content. Tons of it. You want to know what else we've got? Check it out at patreon.com slash lgtcpodcast are there nudes

of brandy on there I don't know yet for sure not there might be you gotta go look you actually have to sign up and then that's

how you pipe out the welcome video is just me naked but you don't acknowledge that you're naked you're just like thank you so much The welcome video is just me naked. Can you imagine? But you don't acknowledge that you're naked. You're just like, thank you so much for your support. No, it's a real emperor's new clothes situation. I think I have just like the most flattering gown on.

I'm just fully new. In reality, it's just a skin gown. Ew. God, edging. Why would you say skin gown? I don't know. It's been a weird time, okay? Anyway. Plus, I just researched a guy named Adolf.

I know. Yeah, you ready? I am. Tell us all about him. And, like, when was he born? Hang on. Because I'm concerned that his parents named him Adolf. He was born in 1947.

Why? Is that weird? And you see like the air to the cores. Like you see the cores of the beer cores. I have got a really fun idea. I should just keep my fucking pants on and listen to the story. Yeah, keep your overalls on and just wait for the story, which will commence in less than a minute. Okay, great.

What, are we going to sit here for the next minute? No, we're going to jingle your overalls. Oh, it didn't. I just jingled so hard and nothing happened. It was amazing. Her entire body jingled, but somehow the overalls did not move. Well, I guess you don't have to worry about your overalls making noise. Guess not.

Okay. Shoutouts to The Case of Adolph Coors by Mara Boveson for the New York Daily News. We like Mara Boveson. Like? More like love. We want to marry Mara Boveson. Do you remember when you were in elementary school and you were like, I love tacos? And people were like, oh my God, you love them so much.

Why don't you marry them? Yeah, you would say that to me. I probably did. To which I would say something awesome like, fine, maybe I will. I wish I could marry a fucking taco. I mean, really. Then you eat your love. Okay, anyway.

Okay, anyway. Also, gosh, some people, boy, they just give the whole story away in the headlines. So, Cheryl Eddy, I'm looking at you for Gizmodo. Great job. Also, Seth Ferranti for Vice. And I did a whole bunch of research on newspapers.com. Beep, boop, beep, boop, beep, boop. Old-timey articles.

Is that how your computer does? Yes. Also, I watched an episode of Forensic Files called Bitter Brew. Oh, so it is the Coors beer, folks. No, it's just a guy who had some coffee that was poisoned. Old-timey disclaimer. Let's all raise a glass to Adolph Coors III. Side note, this story takes place in 1960, and Adolph preferred to go by Ad.

Can't imagine why. So let's raise a glass to Ad Kors III. Do you think that Dolph Lundgren was a similar situation? Like his name was Adolf and he went by Dolph because he didn't want to be correlated with Hitler? I'm sorry. Who's Dolph Lundgren? He's a – What?

Wait. Isn't he in Rocky? Like, Rocky V? Oh, God. As if I know anything about any of those movies. I know Sylvester Stallone was in them. He's, in fact... I know he sweated all over that Philadelphia art museum. He was in Rocky IV.

So, what was your question exactly? Anyway, his name is Hans and he goes by Dolph. I think that's a weird choice, Hans. Okay. Anyway, so not an Adolph in sight. No. Just a German guy. Great.

Anyway, for the third time, let's raise a glass to Ad Coors III. That's right. I said Coors, as in Coors, taste the Rockies. Yeah. Do you remember those ads? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they have the beer, or the beers. They have the, jeez. They do have those ads? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they have the beer or the beers. They have the –

They do have the beers. Very good, Brandy. They have the cans where the mountains turn blue when it's cold. Is Coors any good? I don't – I'll drink Coors Light sometimes occasionally. I'm not a huge beer drinker but – Yeah, and I drink beer not at all. Never.

Yeah. Because of religious reasons no because you think it tastes gross my religion demands cocktails only very strict Coors was founded in 1873 in golden colorado by adolph coors the third's grandpapa, Adolf Coors, O.G. And now in 1960, Ad Coors was third. I'm sorry. I did not rehearse this script. But it's going to be great. It's going to be so good.

You know, I say rehearsals. Who needs them? That's right. Yeah. Yeah. say rehearsals, who needs them? That's right. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So now in 1960, Adcours III was running the business. Or Adcours III. Mm-hmm. Electric boogaloo. Adcours had made his family quite proud. He'd graduated from Cornell University.

Ever heard of it? And he was a super good baseball player. He didn't go pro, but he went like close to pro. Semi-pro, as they call it. Why are you making that face? Jealous? Like, are you playing the minors? You think I looked into that aspect at all?

I'm just wondering like what almost pro is. Semi-pro. Okay. Is that not a thing? Semi-pro? I don't know what it is because I in my, I don't know, maybe that's just me thinking too much about it.

But I think if you've made it even to the minors, you're a professional baseball player. Oh yeah, for sure. Okay, so that just means he was really good in college. Alright. He was also very good at golf. He was good at a lot of sports. Good at a lot of things. In 1940, he married Mary Grant, and they had four children.

But did they truly love their children? Perhaps not. Because they named one of them Adolph. Yeah, you probably got to stop that. Right. I mean, okay, this family, they didn't stop. It's Adolphs all the way through. Okay?

There's an Adolph V. Yeah. No word about a sixth. I mean, at what point do you say— We're not going to carry on the name any further. Adolph Hitler took a lot from this world, including our first name. That would suck, though. I mean, I think it's cool when generations pass on names, but, I mean, you don't see people rocking that facial hair anymore.

The toothbrush mustache. Yeah, I mean, poor Charlie Chaplin. Anyway, in 1960, when AdCourse was 44, he was working as the CEO and chairman of the board of the Coors Brewing Company. That was a big deal. Coors didn't become a big national brand until, like, the 80s, but it had a good reputation, and it was definitely growing with Ad at the helm, despite the fact that he was allergic to beer. He was? Yeah. I'm right.

I mean, for all I know, I am too. People really liked Ad. He was kind of quiet and reserved. He was a family man and basically a good guy. He and his family lived on a horse ranch. He didn't really have any enemies. Despite the fact that he was super rich and part of this beer dynasty, he was a pretty normal guy. On February 9, 1960, Ad went about his morning routine.

He worked out. He showered. He had coffee with his wife, Mary, went out to check on his horses and came back inside to kiss Mary and the kids goodbye. By that point, the kids had all gone off to school, so he didn't get a chance to actually kiss them goodbye. But, oh well. He grabbed his jacket, got into his green and white international travel station wagon

and headed to work. It's kind of a cool car. It sounds cool. Yes. Can I look it up? Well, yeah. That's why I told you all about it. Okay, great.

One more. Hit it again. Green and white international Travelall Station Wagon. Travel all. One word. Oh, shit. Yeah. Isn't that awesome?

Yeah. Okay. So he's in that and't that awesome? Yeah. Okay. So he's in that, and it was almost 8 a.m. The highway that he usually took to work was being repaired, so he took a detour on a gravel road. This meant that he was driving in a fairly isolated area. About two miles from his comb, which he kept in his home, he reached Turkey Creek Bridge. He always tracked his travel based on how far away from his comb he was. Yes, yes.

It's important to have a point of reference. Just spat everywhere. Some maps, they say, you are here. Ads comb is here. Currently 15 minutes from comb. Anyway. So he reached Turkey Creek Bridge. It was an old, not terribly safe-looking wooden bridge.

It also wasn't very wide. It held one car. Right. And so we know that Ad made it to the bridge, but also that he didn't make it into work that day. About three hours after Ad Kors would have pulled up onto that bridge, a milkman drove up. He saw the station wagon idling on the bridge. The radio was playing, but no one was in the vehicle. The milkman got closer and saw reddish-brown stains on the ground Blood?

Yes. He contacted the police and told them what he'd seen, and it didn't take long for them to figure out that the... Would you like to know what I wrote here? I would love to. Brandy, it didn't take them long to figure out that the car the station wagon belonged to was Ad Coors. Ooh, maybe, you know what, maybe rehearsals should be in face. In no time, they found Ad's hat and glasses in the creek bank. I say in no time. They actually drained the creek and then they found the glasses.

But everybody knows how fast creeks are to drain. Just super quick. No time. They also found another hat, a brown fedora. Did not belong to Ad. Perhaps it belonged to a kidnapper or an ad-napper. Wow. Very good. That was so stupid.

You should feel ashamed right now. Are you feeling ashamed? You should feel ashamed right now. Are you feeling ashamed? They were certain, given Ad's prominence in the community and his family's money, that he had been kidnapped. Or Ad-napped, as they came to call it. The FBI was on this case immediately, just as quickly as that creek was drained. They were just there.

The next day, they intercepted a ransom letter at the local post office. It was addressed to Ad's wife, Mary. Here's what it said. Mrs. Coors. By the way, colons all over the place. Do you want me to give you the colon count? Say all of them aloud. Mrs. Coors, colon. Your husband has been kidnapped.

His car is by Turkey Creek. Call the police or FBI, colon. He dies. Cooperate, colon. He lives. Ransom, colon. $200,000 in tens and $300,000 in twenties. There will be no negotiating.

Bills, colon, used, slash, non-consecutive, slash, unrecorded, slash, unmarked. Warning, colon, we will know if you call the police or record the serial numbers. Directions Place money and this letter and envelope in one suitcase or bag. Have two men with a car ready to make the delivery. When all set, advertise a tractor for sale in Denver Post section 69. Nice. Sign at... In parentheses. a tractor for sale in Denver Post section 69. Nice. Sign ad

in parentheses. Sign ad King Ranch, Fort Lupton. Wait at NA9-4455 for instructions after ad appears. I have no idea what that means. I assume

that's an old-timey telephone number. I believe so. Deliver immediately after receiving call. Any delay will be regarded as a stall to set up a stakeout. Understand this, colon. Adolph's life is in your hands. We have no desire to commit murder. All we want is that money. If you follow the instructions, he will be released unharmed within 48 hours after the money is received.

Ransom note adjourned. OK. A couple of things. OK. Way too many colons. Second of all, the problem here is how long it took for this ransom note to get delivered because the police are already involved at this point. Also, could you please – Well, to be fair, like he goes missing.

They intercepted at the post office the next day. Is that really like way too long? Well, yeah, because they thought that – Yeah, I mean they knew kind of immediately. They were going to call the police immediately when they find his car. Yeah. Also, can you please tell us how much that money is adjusted for inflation? That sounds like a lot of money.

It's over $5 million in today's money. Mm-hmm. Jeez. Okay. Investigators noted that the ransom letter was well-typed. There were no typos, no grammatical errors. They loved the colons. They did?

No, I mean, they made no mention of the colons. No, I meant they really, is this really a critique they gave that it was grammatically correct? Because it seems like way too many colons. Well, I think it reveals a lot about the writer if, yeah. Right, right, right. Okay. Someone who's well-educated. Yeah.

Is this your first time reviewing a ransom letter? No, not at all. Exactly. I've reviewed many. Yeah. So get with it, lady. Also, the typeface was distinctive. It was made by this company called CTAG, and it was only used in two types of typewriters.

And the way to tell the difference between those two different types of typewriters was by looking at the numbers that they typed out. Uh-huh. Got it. So with all this information, they knew that the kidnappers used a Royalite portable typewriter. Obviously. Duh. The only issue was that, you know, it was a pretty popular typewriter. Right.

Kind of the Honda Civic of its day. Yeah. But they noticed that in the ransom letter, all the S's were a little lower than they should be. They slid off the page. Mm-hmm. And that would likely be an imperfection on that one particular typewriter. Or so they hoped.

Not like a manufacturing issue and all of – Oh, God, they hope not, right? So the FBI was obviously already involved, as you pointed out, so there was no one doing that. But Mary did what the kidnappers asked of her. She got $200K in 10s and $300K in 20s, and she placed the ad in the Denver Post. Her father-in-law was totally behind her. He told the media, I cannot be emotional about this. The crooks have something that I want to buy. My son. The price is secondary.

Yeah. I mean, if I had at all the capability to pay the ransom, I'd just pay the fucking ransom. Yeah. So this had to be incredibly tough because Adolph Coors Jr. had himself almost been the victim of a kidnapping scheme 27 years earlier. What? Yes. Can you believe that? No.

So I don't know a ton about that. I know that the FBI contacted the Coors family and let them know, hey, we've stopped this plan, but there was a plan to kidnap you. So the Coors family had always been pretty private and reserved and kind of kept to themselves. And after that, they were even more so and then of course they were stop anyway weeks passed and mary heard nothing from the kidnappers the only people she heard from were prank callers or douchebags who were trying to somehow get the money.

Great. In fact, in the initial weeks after her husband went missing, Mary received more than 50 fake ransom notes. Oh, my gosh. This had to be a horrible time for the Coors family, but the fact that they were such a prominent family meant that the FBI would work extra hard to crack the case. In fact, J. Edgar Hoover personally promised the Coors family that he would urge Martin Luther King Jr. to die by suicide. Excuse me. In fact, J. Edgar Hoover personally promised the Coors family that he would blackmail Martin Luther King Jr. because he was a racist piece of shit. Excuse me. He obviously did all that. But what's relevant to this story is that J. Edgar Hoover personally promised the Coors family that he would solve

the case. You know, a lot of people talk about J. Edgar Hoover in, like, the women's underwear. I don't give a shit about what he wore on his little butt. But I do give a shit about him being a huge racist douchebag. Absolutely. This became the FBI's biggest manhunt since the Lindbergh baby kidnapping. By the way, your face that entire time was amazing. Every now and then I do wish we had video. Did you think I'd had a stroke?

I was like, wait, what? This could have been a really tough case. After all, no one had seen the kidnapping. This could have been a really tough case. After all, no one had seen the kidnapping. But the funny thing was that most of the people who lived in the area had noticed this very eye-catching car driving around the area in previous weeks. It was bright yellow. In fact, this car was so eye-catching and so out of place that some people had tried to memorize the license plate.

Really? Mm-hmm. So this minor guy thought that it seemed suspicious. I don't know. He thought this dude was going to, like, go into his mine or something. Oh, so we're not talking about an underage gentleman. We're talking about a guy who's working in a mine. Oh, yes. I'm sorry.

Were you genuinely confused? I was like, wait, a miner? What's a miner guy? Miners have to guard their holes. Sorry, that was terrible. The man remembered that the license plate contained the number 62 and the letters AT. The FBI took that information and was like, thank you very much. Beep, boop, beep, boop, beep.

They, you know, used their database. And they traced it back to a yellow 1951 Mercury owned by a guy named Walter Osborne. As it turned out, Walter Osborne had lived in the Capitol Hill neighborhood of Denver for about four years. Would you like his address? You bet your sweet ass I would. 1435 Pearl Street, Denver, Colorado. Apartment 305. Okay. Yeah, so it's still an apartment building. okay

yeah so it's still an apartment building I mean this wasn't that long ago right intrigued should we describe it at all I mean it's pretty boring it's the most boring apartment building

I've ever seen actually it's like perfectly rectangular. There's like no personality. Nope. Yeah, I mean, that's where Walter lived. He was 31, super quiet. In fact, his neighbors had a nickname for him. Quiet boy?

Mystery boy. Oh, shut up! I can't believe how close you were. Were we his neighbors? The writer specifically said that the women in the apartment building had that nickname for him. Mystery boy. Mystery boy. for it.

Mystery boy. Mystery boy. And he really was a mystery boy because for years he'd been living in Denver and working at Benjamin Moore the paint store. Rhymes. But shortly after Ad Kors was kidnapped Walter Osborne

vanished. Where'd he go? I don't know. And neither did anyone else. Ooh. His landlady said that he'd told her he was going to Boulder to finish his studies, but, you know, that turned out to be a fibby-fib-fib from Mystery Boy. Clearly something was up with Walter Osborne. Investigators talked to his coworkers, and they said that Walter was always talking about this big money-making scheme he was cooking up.

Was he going to kidnap the heir to a beer company? He didn't really get that detailed about it. Demand a large amount of ransom. Just spitballing just a couple ideas. Just spitballing just a couple ideas. They found out that Walter had ordered handcuffs and shackles and a gun by mail. He's kinky. What?

See, I'm more surprised that they send you a gun in the mail. You can still order a gun in the mail. In the mail? Yes, ma'am. And, like, anybody can just open that up? Sure thing. Well, that is alarming. It's very alarming. Great.

Okay. I thought this was a weird 1960 thing. No, haven't you? Oh, gosh. It's a whole thing. Have you heard of ghost guns? Ghost guns? Ghost guns. It's, it's a whole thing. Have you heard of ghost guns? Ghost guns? Ghost guns.

It's like a whole thing. It's like people order all the parts to a gun online. They get them shipped to them and they assemble the gun so then there's no record of that gun. Oh, jeez. Yeah. I mean, maybe they've made it more difficult since the 60s, but you can still get a gun through the mail. I mean, judging by our gun violence statistics in this country. Yeah.

Huh. Boy, I hate everything. Okay. They also discovered that he owned the typewriter that matched the ransom note. Oh, okay. So, bada bing, bada boom. Yeah. I think I said that wrong.

Bada bing, bada boom. I kind of lost energy. Your batteries ran out on boom. It's true. Then, not too long after the kidnapping, they found Walter's yellow mercury. Where was it? It had been abandoned and set on fire

in New Jersey. New Jersey? Made it all the way to New Jersey? Right? I mean, yeah, so. Okay. I mean, he is a mystery boy. He'll travel all over the place. So not a road trip. Mm-hmm.

So this investigation was going places, but there were still two main problems. Ad Corps was nowhere to be found, and Walter Osborne didn't actually exist. I'm sorry, what? Yeah. He's not a real person? That's like a name?

That's like an alias? You only get points for your answer if you say it really quickly. The fingerprint on his driver's license application matched a man named Joseph Corbett Jr. Joseph, as it turned out, was brilliant, a genius, and a convicted murderer. Who did he murder?

Just slow down. I'm sorry. Is that not the first question everybody wants answered? No, they're like, but where was he born? Seattle. All right. What did, but where was he born? Seattle. All right. What did his dad do for a living? He was a newspaper editor.

Calm down. Also, in 1950, Joseph had been working on the balcony of their house, and his mom came out on it and fell and died five days later. So. He was convicted of her murder? No, no, no, no. Oh, that's not the murder. That's just a sad story. I'm sorry.

I should have been more clear. No, that's just a really sad story. From what I've read, he'd been doing okay until that point. But then his mom's death really messed things up for him. Pushed him over the edge. Oh. Two on the nose. You're two on the nose. Joseph had been a Fulbright scholar at the University of Oregon or was at the University of Washington. Depends on what article you're reading. He was pre-med. He was, you know, I mean, he didn't do well socially. I mean, everyone can kind of agree on that.

But he was very bright. But after his mom died, people said that he started acting strange. He became cold. He had a bad temper. And six months after his mom died, he shot a hitchhiking Air Force sergeant twice in the head. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. He said it was self-defense.

But he shot the man in the back of the head. Yeah. So he changed his story and said it was a robbery gone wrong. and said it was a robbery gone wrong. He pled guilty to second-degree murder and was sentenced to five years to life in prison, which is quite the range. That is quite a large range, yes. At first, he was put in a maximum security prison,

but he was such a good prisoner that they transferred him to a minimum security prison. And one day, he just walked away. Oh, my gosh. Which I feel like this is not the first story we've told like this, specifically in old-timey California prison. So his story was he got out of his cell. He had a change of clothes stowed away somewhere.

He changed clothes, popped a window, and skedaddled. Went to Colorado. When they say minimum, they mean minimum. So he settled down in Denver. He gave himself a new name. I mean technically it was actually his brother's first and middle names, but, you know, how creative can we be he told people he was married and he gave his mom's name as his wife which i think you could have been more creative than that but all right things that should probably be explored there but we don't have the time

he worked at the paint store and plotted a kidnapping apparently apparently. Yeah. It looked like he'd planned this for nearly two years. Oh, my gosh. Mm-hmm. The FBI now knew who they were looking for. So at the end of March, they added Joseph Corbett to their 10 Most Wanted list. Months passed. This was really hard for the Coors family. They'd been, by all accounts, a very tight-knit, happy family.

Still no sign of Ad during all of this. So we're assuming that he's no longer living. So it would depend on who you ask. But, I mean, yeah, that was kind of the initial thought when they saw blood. Yeah. Was this couldn't have gone well. Was there actually a detour or was that part of the whole? No, there was an actual detour.

Okay. But he had just staked this out for long enough and waited. But, I mean, he did the stakeouts in a bright yellow car. He was in So – Right? With Ad gone, the family threw themselves into work, which a lot of people thought was really cold. I think it can just be a coping mechanism. Absolutely. Ad cores.

The father never talked about the kidnapping with any of the workers, which, again, people thought was cold. But also I can totally understand. It's probably too difficult to talk about. I don't know. It's tough because obviously we can't go too crazy in depth in these stories that we tell every week. So who knows? Maybe if I learned more, I would judge them more harshly. But I just, I think this would be a horrible position to be in.

And if you want to get through it by working really hard and not talking about your trauma for a while, like, I don't know, I'm not going to judge you for that. I'll judge you for everything else. Literally everything else. But this seemed to really bother Mary. She felt very alone. She felt very isolated. I think she was probably more of an emotional kind of touchy-feely, let's talk it out type person. And they just weren't that way.

So she began to drink heavily. And then on September 11, 1960, a pizza delivery guy was bored and went to do some target practice at the local dump. While he was there, he found a nicely made pair of pants. The label on them read, Expressly for Mr. A. Coors III. In the pants pocket, he found a penknife that had been inscribed AC the third. So he called the police and they came out and not too far from the pants, they found human remains. Oh, my gosh. It was the body of Ad Kors. He'd been shot twice in the back.

The discovery of Ad's body reignited the case. The FBI put up wanted posters with Joseph's face on them. They put up one and a half million of these posters. Oh, my gosh. I know. Reader's Digest did a big article on the crime. They ran Joseph's picture alongside it. And sure enough, someone in Toronto read the article.

They looked at the picture. And they were like, huh, that looks like a guy I used to work with. So they called the FBI. But by the time the FBI and their Canadian buddies got to Joseph's new place in Toronto, he was gone. They searched the apartment he'd rented. They found chains and padlocks. They found a copy of the book Anatomy of a Murder. So we all know true crime fans are the real murderers.

They were sure they'd catch him soon. Joseph's picture was everywhere. Surely someone would spot him and turn him in. Weeks went by. And as it turned out, Joseph may have been a genius. He may have been a Fulbright scholar. But he couldn't resist driving an eye-catching car. When he fled Toronto, he rented a fire engine red Pontiac.

Why? Right? Lay off the high ones. The one film Kristen's ever seen. No, you want to know something for real? Yeah. Norman and I have started watching old-timey films lately. Yeah.

It's really fun. Yeah. You know why? The writing is really good. I mean, granted, we're going for like the A-list stuff, not like the crap. The writing is really good. Also, they don't drag that shit out. No, yeah.

90 minutes. Yeah. That's what Alfred Hitchcock always said. Really? That that's the perfect length for a movie because that's how long an audience member can hold their bladder. Thank you. Well, he's such a – oh, he's gross. He's terrible.

But yeah, I mean, yes. I mean, God, I hate to give him a compliment. But, you know, yes. Yeah. All right. Anyway, on October 29th, a woman in Vancouver recognized him. He was staying at her flop house. Oh.

Yeah. So in the FBI write-up on this, they called it a flop house, which I think is rude. Yeah. It was the Maxine Hotel, which I think looks kind of cute. It shut down a long time ago, probably because it was kind of crappy. Well, because it was a flop house. Probably because it was kind of crappy. Probably because it was a flop house.

So she called the FBI or more likely the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. Sorry. Or the Mountain Police. They just look at those mountains and they're like, hey. Knock it off. Hey, police. Hey. They arrived at the hotel.

The woman pointed them to the room where he was staying. They knocked on the door. Joseph cracked it open just to crack it open. And they like kicked it in and burst through it. And Joseph said, okay, I give up. You got me. But he didn't really give up. You got me. But he didn't really give up. He couldn't let you down. You rickrolling me?

He's never going to give you up, Brandy. No, he really didn't give up because when all was said and done, he pled not guilty. Okay. At this point, it was clear he was headed for a trial. So authorities in California where Joseph had murdered the hitchhiker were like, hey, if his upcoming trial ends in an acquittal, please send him right back to us. We won't let him get away this time. Pinky promise. Joseph's trial began a little over a year after Ad Kors was killed.

Interestingly, since his remains were found in Colorado, they didn't try him on federal kidnapping charges. Instead, the local DA went, went, charged him with first-degree murder. They went, charged him. They went and charged him. That's right. They just went ahead and charged him. There we go. Seems like we're missing a word.

You just put in whatever word you want. Prosecutors believed that Joseph had stalked ad cores and plotted this kidnapping for quite some time. And they knew this because so many people had seen his bright yellow car. They theorized that Joseph prepared for the kidnapping by observing Ad's routine and buying the gun and the handcuffs and the typewriter. He also bought a bunch of camping supplies. So they think the plan was to kidnap Ad, kind of take him up into the mountains and get the money and, you know, all be done. Get the money and run. Yeah.

So what happened? He never made any attempt to get the money? Yeah. It doesn't appear that he did make any attempt to do it. I think he knew it had fucked up big time so what they think happened was they're on this bridge he was already on the bridge and acted like his card stalled out so ad probably got out to see if he needed help joseph produces the gun and ad Ad, I mean, Ad was an athlete and they were both very evenly matched.

They're both 6'2". They weigh about the same. And Ad was a really fucking tough dude. So, I you know, I mean, hey, you put a gun on me, I'm gonna... I'm gonna piss my pants in that shit. But

not Ad Coors. No. And so they struggled and they believe that Ad started to run away back to his car and that's when he got shot twice in the back. And so it was just a botched kidnapping right from the get-go. Yeah. But yeah, I mean he could have tried to get the money. Yeah. But I think –

He probably knew that the police were already involved at this point and there was no chance of him making – Because this became just immediate huge news. Yeah. Yeah, I don't think he realized how quickly ad would be missed. So thanks a lot. I just went way far in my script. Let's see. OK.

For their case, the prosecution brought Joseph's former co-workers in to testify about how he was always talking about this plan to make himself rich. They brought in local witnesses who said they'd seen Joseph in his yellow car hanging around the area in the weeks before the kidnapping. Ad's widow, Mary, talked about the ransom note and how she'd gotten all the money and did her part and waited for the phone to ring. And all she got were prank calls. She told the jury that when they first got that ransom note, she'd been relieved. She thought maybe her husband was still alive. Yeah, of course. So this is interesting. The defense tried to block testimony that dealt with the kidnapping.

Their argument was that kidnapping was not part of the criminal charge, so it shouldn't be talked about. But the problem— What? You got things to say? Well, we wouldn't be here. Yeah. So the prosecution argued that they needed to talk about kidnapping to establish a motive for the murder because that's why he was murdered. Yeah. Because Joseph wanted to pull off his kidnapping. Attempted to kidnap him. Yes.

So the judge sided with the prosecution saying, I'll allow it, but don't go too him, yes. So the judge sided with the prosecution, saying, I'll allow it, but don't go too far, counselor. Which is not real. It's just something I've always wanted to say. I've always wanted to, like, take off some wire from frame glasses. But don't go too far, counselor. You're on thin ice, counselor. I'll allow it.

Don't you ever wish your life was filled with these moments? No. Yeah, me neither. It's weird. Anyway, they called in experts who said that the ransom note came from the typewriter that Joseph purchased. They called in a fingerprint expert showing that Walter was Joseph. Joseph was Walter. They were one in the same.

But the showstopper was the evidence they recovered from Joseph's burned out abandoned Mercury. An expert for the prosecution testified that there were distinct layers of dirt on the underside of that car. The fourth layer was sand, perhaps from the coast of New Jersey. The third layer was nothing special, maybe from the road trip. The second deepest layer, that doesn't make sense. The second to last layer. There we go.

Contained flecks of granite, and that matched the soil where Ad's body was found. The deepest layer contained different types of shale, which matched the soil where Ad was kidnapped. I'm sorry, did you say shale with a southern accent? No. What is that? S-H-A-L-E. What is that? What's shell? Don't say a word like that and expect

us to fucking know what that is. You know, I looked it up and I was like, that's boring. It's a fine-grained sedimentary rock that forms from the compaction of silt and clay-sized mineral particles and is easily broken into thin thin parallel layers.

All right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Okay. Piece of shale. Okay. Are you happy? I legitimately didn't know what word you were saying!

There was a thin layer of windings and whozits and whatzits. Galore. What about thing in the bobs? I got 20. Oh, who cares? No big deal. I want more.

More. Anyway, what do you think of all that shale? Are you impressed? Yeah, okay, sure. Brandy, brandy, brandy. Do you think this is bullshit science? I kind of do. I think it sounds impressive.

To be clear, I don't think it's bullshit science. I absolutely think, you know, we go to Colorado probably once a year, you know, and sure, there's different types of— Shale all over your car. We come back covered in shale. But I'm thinking, like, I don't know. The car's been set on fire. It's in fucking New Jersey. know the car's been set on fire yeah it's in fucking new jersey yeah do you really mean to tell me that they it's just it's too perfect is what it is that they have the exact soil from

where he was kidnapped and from where his body was dumped that's that's boom science no that's we are we have to make a case and we don't have any witnesses and we have only circumstantial evidence. And so we have to I don't know, make the underbelly of this mercury. Shale, yes we do. District Attorney

Ronald Hardesty wrapped up the prosecution's case by showing the jury one of the hats that they'd found at the crime scene. Did he put it on? What's his name? Joseph? What's his name? What's this guy's name? Yeah, it's Joseph. Joseph, just put it in like, if the hat fits, something snappy. Brandi, it's so funny that that's where you're going. The hat he presented was a brown fedora.

They argued that it belonged to Joseph. And so... What? He was like, Jerry, I ask you, if there's anybody in this courtroom who would look great in a blonde fedora. And let me tell you, they dropped that fedora on his head. Everyone creamed their jeans. They're like, you know what, Joseph?

If that isn't your hat, it should be. It absolutely should be. No. So the DA asked Joseph to stand in front of the jury and a witness placed the fedora on his head. If the fedora fits, you must not quit, Brandy. I can't believe everybody did that. I can't believe it either. And I want so much more context.

Yeah. Like, surely they had someone on the witness stand who was like, yeah, I saw this guy in a fedora and this dramatic moment played out in front of them. It was like, yeah, I saw this guy in a fedora and this dramatic moment played out in front of them. But the newspaper article I read from the time was just like, yeah, so they plopped the hat on his head in front of the jury. That can't be the end of that story. So the prosecution was finished. Okay. Now it was the defense's turn. And they called no witnesses.

None? None. Okay. What'd they say? Nothing. They didn't put a case at all? Here's the thing. They're like, the prosecution has not proven their case.

There you go. When asked later about the strategy, defense attorney William Erickson said that the state had, quote, failed utterly to establish a case. OK. They figured that the case against their client was so weak and circumstantial that they didn't need to present a defense. It's a bold strategy, Cotton. Bold, bold, bold. But OK, what do you think of the prosecution's case? It's so circumstantial.

I think it – I mean a lot of it comes down to do you believe 100 percent that that typewriter is the exact typewriter? Do you think he looked good in that hat? Did he look good in the hat working it yeah i mean that's that's thank you that was my number two question my number three just close in behind is do you believe the soil stuff shale yes i do i don't know that I believe this whole stuff. It's really hard for me to believe the typewriter thing. Like I absolutely believe that the typeface can be linked back to these two different types. But those two different types are like major brands.

Yeah. And I believe that you can narrow it down further some, but I don't think you can say this is the one – what's that typewriter's IP address, I ask you? Yeah, I don't think they have IP addresses. Exactly. Somebody should work on that. The jury deliberated for two days and on march 29th 1961 they found him guilty several of the jurors cried as the verdict was read really yeah it's funny i feel like you don't see that much joseph was sentenced to life with the possibility of parole. He was not eligible for the death penalty because under Colorado law at this time, you couldn't get the death penalty unless you confessed to the crime or there were eyewitnesses to the crime.

Which seems like, yeah. I'm fine with that. I mean, ideally, there wouldn't be a death penalty. But I mean, having some rules is nice. Joseph appealed his sentence, and the appeal went all the way to the Colorado Supreme Court. So his legal team argued that the trial court had made just a shit ton of errors. But their main argument was that circumstantial evidence is not enough to find someone guilty of first-degree murder. But the Colorado Supreme Court disagreed with their argument in a five-to-two decision. So Joseph stayed in prison. And in 1978, Adolf Kors IV tried to visit him in prison.

So Adolf Kors had been 14 when his dad was kidnapped and murdered. I guess you can't even call this a kidnapping. I mean he was just murdered. But Joseph refused to see him. Adolf tried again and Joseph refused to see him. He tried again and Joseph refused a third time, which Adolf kind of knew he would. That final time, Adolf put a note in a Bible, and he handed it to the guard, and he asked him to take that Bible to Joseph. The note read, I want to forgive you for what you did to my family.

And I ask for your forgiveness for the hatred we've had for you all these years. Oh, that just gave me goosebumps. I know. Okay, so I've got goosebumps too. I went down and Adolph Coors the fourth rabbit hole. He is now like an evangelical born again Christian guy. And he's a motivational speaker. And initially I had jokes in the script about like, well, yeah, you have to be if your name's Adolph.

Like you got to whatever. Anyway, I listened to one of his motivational Christian speeches. I listened on like some weird focus on the family podcast, which I mean, that's like the creepy, super conservative. Yeah, we hate gay people stuff. So it's weird. Now I'm homophobic. I just can't help it. I actually really enjoyed his speech. I mean, it's like it totally reminded me of growing up when we went to church all the time. So it's like, you know, it didn't feel that far fetched. Healthy dose of, you know, gentlemen, be grateful for your women. But, you know, he seems sweet.

Anyway, where am I going with this? So he talked about losing his dad yeah and how hard that was and he said that his mom was just consumed by hatred for this man who took her husband away yeah and she drank too much and ended up dying when she was like 60. She fell down the stairs. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. And his sister died when she was like 28 from cancer. I mean, just like some really horrible stuff has happened to this family.

Holy cow. So not long after Adolph tried to reach out to Joseph, Joseph was up for parole. And he told the parole board, I think the web of circumstantial evidence that was wrapped around me could have been wrapped around virtually anyone. Further years of imprisonment aren't going to make me a better person. I've come as far as I can go. That's kind of refreshingly honest. I mean, yeah.

He was granted parole in 1980. What do you think of that? I mean, he really wasn't locked up for very long at all. No, he wasn't. What about California? Don't they still want a piece of him? Evidently not. Okay. All right then. You just wander out of the minimum security prison whenever you fucking feel like it.

Well, they certainly frowned upon it. No, I mean, I think to me it would all come down to how certain are we that he did this? Yeah. I'm not very certain. Mm-hmm. I mean, I'm kind of certain. Yeah, I feel like he probably did it. I do think he probably did it.

Yeah. Yeah, actually, I think it's very likely. Now that I'm really thinking, yeah, I think it's very likely that probably did it. Yeah. Yeah, actually, I think it's very likely. Now that I'm really thinking, yeah, I think it's very likely that he did it. I just don't think there was a lot of evidence. I agree. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, he was released in 1980.

And when he got out of prison, he went back to living in Colorado. In fact, he settled down in an apartment about 10 miles from Turkey Creek Bridge. He got a job driving a truck for the Salvation Army. He didn't socialize much at all. He kept his curtains shut at all times. Mystery boy. Damn right. Mystery man now. He rarely spoke to the media, but when he did, it was to maintain his innocence.

He said he had no problem admitting to the first murder of the hitchhiker, but he maintained until the end of his life that he never killed ad cores. Which, even that, I'm like, well, but you did try to say it was self-defense and you shot him in the back of the head. So like calm down. Yeah. In 2009 when Joseph was 80 years old, he died by suicide. Really? Yeah. Yeah.

One source said that he had recently been diagnosed with cancer. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. So that's the story of the botched kidnapping of Ad Kors III. Oh, my goodness. That was a wild ride. Yeah. Oh.

I just feel terrible for that family. Oh, absolutely. I don't know how you recover from something like that. I don't think you do. Right. And I'm thinking specifically about Mary. You lose your husband, and then you've got these four kids who are also, I mean, they could be kidnapped just as easily.

And you know, your husband's father, there was an attempt made on him. I mean, that would just, yeah. How would you deal with? Yeah. How would you deal with that? Yeah. You wouldn't. You'd drink and you'd, I mean. I mean, well, hopefully you'd find healthier.

Yeah, hopefully. I mean, I'm just saying I think you can see why her life went the way it went. Yeah. Yeah. Ugh. Hmm. Anyway, when you came over today and I was running late, it was because I was literally listening to the testimony of Adolph Coors IV

from the Focus on the Family podcast. Oh, yeah. While I was running on the treadmill. Wonderful. So weird switch from my normal. Yeah. Stop. That was very interesting.

Yeah, I think he probably did it. I think, you know, I mean, I feel silly even questioning it because I think he definitely did it. Like the fact that I do believe he was spotted, like the car went back to him. Absolutely. When they went to Denver, he had literally packed up and left the day after the kidnapping. Yeah. No, I think for sure he did it. But I'm just not super confident in the evidence they had against him. Absolutely.

But I am confident that I'm going to get up and get myself some water. Do it. Get up and get some water. Okay, what you got for me? I've got a disappearance for you. I do like disappearance stories. I know you do. Did we kind of give each other a little nifty-gifties?

Yeah, I think so. All right. I think you're going to like this case. I watched – well, okay, that's not entirely true. What? Okay. Oh, you read the transcript of it. The majority of this information comes from an episode of 2020 that I read and did not watch and an article on chillingcrimes.com.

Oh, my God. You're obsessed. Love chillingcrimes.com. Robert Bierenbaum's family didn't think much of it when the young doctor showed up alone to his nephew's birthday party at 630 on July 7th, 1985. He told his sister that he and his wife, Gail Katz, had gotten into an argument earlier in the day. And that she had left their Manhattan apartment to cool off around 11 o'clock that morning. She said she needed some space and that she was going to sunbathe in Central Park.

But when it was time for him to leave for the birthday party at around 5.30 that evening, she wasn't back so he'd just gone on without her. This wasn't like super surprising for the family. The young couple, they were both 29, often fought and their marriage was pretty toxic.

They'd started going to counseling to try and improve their marriage, but not much had improved. Can't polish a turd, as they say. That's right. Robert celebrated his nephew's birthday, and then later that evening, he left to head back to Manhattan. He, of course, hoped that Gail had returned to the apartment and that they could talk through the morning's events. On the way home from the party, Robert stopped off at his friend's house, Dr. Scott Baranoff. And by that point, it seemed that he was pretty concerned about Gail. He used Scott's phone to call their apartment phone several times, but Gail didn't answer.

Robert told Scott that he and Gail had had an argument that morning and that, you know, she'd stormed off and went to the park to sunbathe and he hadn't spoken to her since. She specifically said, I'm going to go to the park to sunbathe? Uh-huh. Okay. I mean, according to Robert. All right. So Robert spends a little time at his friend Scott's house calling his apartment repeatedly. And then he decides to head back to his apartment for the night.

When he got there, Gail wasn't there. And so he started making some phone calls. I think he called Gail's family. No one had heard from her. And then he called her former psychology teacher, Dr. Yvette Feis. F-E-I-S? Yes. Wow. I can spell it, but you think I can say it? I mean, was she close to her former second? Well, I don't really know. I guess it was someone she was close with.

That seems like an odd choice to me. I know, that's what I was thinking. Yeah, exactly. But he was like, hey, we got in an argument this morning, and Gail took off. She went to Central Park to sunbathe, and now I haven't. Right. I can't track her down. I don't know where she is. She's not back. And Yvette was like, well, you should call the police.

Or at the very least go talk to your doorman. Right. See if anybody's seen her. And Robert was like, yeah, this is a good idea. I'm going to do that. But he did neither of those things that night. Okay. It wasn't until the following night, July 8th at around 9 p.m.

Why didn't he do that? That's not an answer. He just didn't. Oh, well, that's good enough for me. Maybe it's because he knew where Gail was the entire time, Kristen. Well, obviously he did, but I mean... Yeah, so that night he does nothing. Makes a couple phone calls.

A little concerned husband theater, if you will. Well, this is an amateur production. If he didn't even call the cops. And so, yeah, the next night, July 8th, at like 9 p.m., Robert walked into a local police station and reported Gail missing. He talked to Detective Virgilio... Oh my! We're having a rough time this episode. Virgilio

Dalsas. Beautiful. Beautiful. Detective Virgilio Dalsas just happened to be the officer in charge of the missing person's desk that night. And Robert informed him that Gail had left their apartment at 11 a.m. the previous day.

They had gotten into a fight. She went to go sunbathing in Central Park. See, that's the other thing. Like, when you're in a fight, I can see, like, I'm going to the park. Yeah. But for some reason, like, giving more details. She took a blanket and some oil. Okay.

Actually, you know what? Yep. That checks out. Okay. Okay. Even though he's for sure guilty, but I'm with you now. Okay. So, and he told the detective that he'd waited at the apartment all day for Gail to come back.

But by 530, she wasn't back, and so he didn't have a choice. He was expected at his nephew's birthday party in Montclair, New Jersey, and so at 5.30, he left to go to the party. Why does your face look like that? How dare you keep asking me that? Heavy dose of skepticism on your face, Kristen. dare you keep asking me heavy dose of skepticism on your face Kristen no I'm I'm just listening because I'm thinking you think it's odd that he just sat there all day and waited for her to come back no okay no honestly I'm I'm trying to be as non-judgmental

as I can but I'm thinking okay so Norman and I get in a fight. He leaves for a while. Yeah, I would stick around. You know, there's things to do around here. Dogs to pet. That's right. Floors to vacuum. Yeah.

Yeah, I wait around and then, you know. Grimmas to run. That's right. But, yeah, and then it's time for the birthday party. And, yeah, you leave. Yeah, you go to the party. You're not thinking something terrible has happened. Yeah.

So, obviously, you know, we know Robert's the last person to see Gail. And so they're like, the detective's like, okay, make sure you get, are there any more details about the day that you can give us? Are there any more details about your and Gail's relationship that you might want to share with us that will help us? And Robert's like, I do. I killed her. I should have told you that. I don't know.

No, that seems like, seems like I've said everything. Oh, well, you know, there's that one little thing, you know, I'm kind of worried about Gail because, you know, she's not real stable.

Oh, boy. She previously has attempted suicide, and I'm just really worried that she may have harmed herself. In fact, she regularly sees a therapist, and her therapist actually just recently told me that she believes Gail may be suicidal. Okay, well, that's really easyail may be suicidal. Okay. Well, that's really easy to verify.

Mm-hmm. So did that actually happen? So, no. Stay tuned for that. Okay. But for now, like, they talked to Gail's family, and they completely disputed basically everything Robert said. They said, yes, okay, it's not entirely untrue.

She had made a previous suicide attempt years earlier. But since then, she'd been super active in therapy. And she actually was in school to become a psychologist herself. And they believed she was at a very different place in her life. And they believed almost immediately that Robert was behind Gail's disappearance. Gail's sister, Elaine Katz, said she knew for sure when she found out Gail was missing and that she hadn't come to her or their parents that something had happened to her. She said, she's not with me. She's not with my parents.

It was at that moment that I knew my sister was dead. Yeah. Elaine had a lot of concerns about her sister's relationship with Robert. It had started, you know, magically like a fairy tale. And then it had quickly turned toxic. When Gail and Robert met in the early 80s, he was like the perfect catch. He was in, you know, medical school. He was about to become a doctor.

You know, he was a – I think he was in his residency. So he was like a doctor essentially. He spoke multiple languages. He was like a gour, essentially. Yeah. He spoke multiple languages. He was like a gourmet cook. He loved cooking. Well, damn. And he was a pilot. So he'd like take her on these little dates, like a quick little flight somewhere for a fancy dinner.

That is wild. Yes. Yeah. It was like a whirlwind magical romance. Yeah. But there were a lot of red flags. Elaine said she noticed the first red flag when she went on like a double date with Bob. He went by Bob or Robert.

Okay. And Gail to a sushi restaurant, which I didn't even know people were eating sushi in the 80s. Yeah, a lot of Japanese people. Thank you. Boy, aren't you an asshole. They went to a sushi restaurant and Robert, like,

shoved sushi into Gail's mouth and then attempted to do the same to Elaine. And Elaine was like, what the fuck? Wait, when you say shoved, like. I don't know. Okay.

That's how she described it. It seemed very aggressive. Super weird. Yeah. That was like her first like, I don't know about this guy. Like that seems like odd behavior. And then. I feel like you wouldn't nope right out

of there oh fuck yeah someone's got something a texture you're not sure about no absolutely not not long into their relationship like right when they moved in together i guess which I think they did fairly quickly. Gail called Elaine one day crying hysterically because Robert had tried to kill her cat. Oh. It had upset him in some way and he attempted to strangle it. Oh, my God. And then attempted to drown it in the toilet. What the? Yeah.

So she was, like, hysterical. Well, yeah. And Elaine was like, okay, like, get the fuck out of there. You're done. And Elaine said that Gail was like, no, no, no, no, no. I'm just going to get rid of the cat. Everything's going to be fine. Oh, my God.

I just, I love him. And so I'm just going to get rid of the cat and everything gonna be fine um i i just i love him and so i'm just gonna get rid of the cat and everything will be great and elaine was like no get rid of fucking bob you don't get rid of the cat but gail decided to stay in the relationship and then married ro. I will say like that. So obviously she's trapped in the cycle of abuse. I can't imagine how hard that was for her to get rid of that cat. Yeah. But she knew for its safety she needed to. That had to be terrible.

Yeah. I read another bit where Elaine kind of described a little bit more of this and she said both Gail and the cat cried all the way to the shelter to give it up. That's terrible. Terrible. Because a lot of times in those abusive relationships, like all you have is your pet. Yeah. Ugh. abusive relationships like all you have is your pet yeah gail told her sister she said i'm smart i'm loving my love will cure this everything will work out

the relationship continued and it just became more toxic and Gail's friends and other family members started to notice. Robert was super controlling and a neighbor recalled at one point Gail told him that she didn't always feel comfortable at home. And somebody else watched an interaction where like Gail went to like turn off a light. Gail went to like turn off a light and Robert put his hand over Gail's to even control just like how she turned the light off. Oh, Lord. Yeah. But the controlling nature of this relationship just continued to escalate until one night Gail called Elaine again and told her that Robert had caught her smoking on their balcony. Mm-hmm. And he'd become enraged by it.

And he had choked her to the point of unconsciousness. Oh, my God. Mm-hmm. She had reported the incident to the police but nothing came of it nothing came nothing came of it so specifically on this 2020 episode a detective said like if that happened today he would have been arrested immediately but in 1983 nothing was done about it oh yeah like not even a follow-up In 1983, nothing was done about it. Ugh. Yeah. Like, not even a follow-up.

That's disgusting. Yeah. Yep. Gail knew that this was escalating and becoming a very dangerous situation, and she convinced Robert to go see a therapist. So they were like in couples counseling together. And that therapist wrote up a letter to Gail and said, you've got to leave this marriage. Wow. If you stay in it, he is going to kill you. Wow.

But initially, Gail just kind of brushed it off, but things didn't get better, and eventually Gail ended up having an affair. She met a man, and she told her sister that she was going to leave Robert for this other man.

And then on July 7, 1985, Gail Katz disappeared. So a search obviously began for Gail, but there wasn't much to go on. The police tried to get more details about, you know, what had happened that day. But they could only speak to Robert, essentially. And he was like, well, I've told you everything. And then he stopped returning their calls.

It's a shame they never returned Gail's call about being choked. No kidding. So yeah, they called him, they left him a bunch of messages, but for like three days after he reported her missing, he didn't respond to those calls at all. And then finally he called them and was like, yeah, I've already told you everything.

You already know it all. Obviously, by this point, police were growing suspicious of Robert. They believed he knew more than he was saying. And like more kind of information kind of came out from friends. So there was like a big search going on. Gail's family was involved. They were putting posters up of her. They were handing flyers out in Central Park asking if anybody had seen them.

And on the 14th of July, so this is like she's been missing for a full week at this point. They're doing that. They're in the park. And Robert's there. He's helping hand out the flyers. Sure, sure. And Robert makes a joke to one of Gail's friends that's helping hand out these flyers

that, oh, she's probably just on a shopping spree at Bloomingdale's. What? Yeah. Mm-hmm. And then in like... Yeah, thanks, dude. We're all actually concerned.

Concerned, yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah, and then he made like some joke using some term I'd never heard before that I will not repeat. But it's like a pejorative for a spoiled Jewish-American girl. Yeah, and was like, you know what a bleep she is. Wow. Yeah. Yeah.

While they're actively searching for her. Yeah, he can't hide it, his contempt for her. He can't on it. Bullshit. He brought this up himself. Yeah, he. Yeah. He's so arrogant.

Mm hmm. So people are super suspicious of Robert at this point. And he's not. I mean, he's only enhancing that by like he's telling different little bits and pieces to different people. One point he said that they'd actually argued the night before, not that morning. And then they reconciled and had a really nice dinner. He'd cooked her a candlelight dinner and all this stuff. And everything was fine.

But then, you know, she went to sunbathe. He also then started telling people that after she didn't come back, after some amount of time, he'd actually gone to look for her in Central Park. And he'd found her blanket and her baby oil but not found her. You don't get to. All that stuff. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. He also told everybody that he had spoken to the doorman and that the doorman had said, yeah, Gail left at 11 and I never saw her again.

So police followed up on this and went and talked to the doorman and said, first of all, Robert had never spoken to the doorman. And the doorman had never, first of all, Robert had never spoken to the doorman and the doorman had never seen Gail leave that day. He'd actually never seen Robert that day either. Did he see Robert leave with a rug? No, he didn't see Robert or Gail go in or out at all that day. OK. So this will we'll talk about this more.

OK, maybe there's a a back to this apartment building. Yeah. As the weeks went by, the police kept asking Robert if they could get access to the apartment, you know, see if there were any clues there. And he kept putting them off, putting them off, putting them off. And finally, in September, they were allowed to do just like a cursory search. They weren't allowed to take anything or do any like testing for blood or anything. I'm sorry. How is that fucking allowed?

Maybe they were unable to secure an actual search warrant so they could only. Sorry. The words fail me. Yeah. He was like, yeah, you can come in, but there's going to be no sample taken, no spraying of any – I don't know if Luminol existed in 1983, but, you know. He set rules for what they could do. Well, I bet he did because he was a controlling douchebag. But I'm surprised that that's a thing that can happen.

At some point, Gail's family, early in the search for her, had like lured Robert out of the apartment, had him handing out flyers, and then they snuck into the apartment to see what they could find. And they found Gail's purse with her cigarettes in it. And they were like, yeah, she didn't leave to cool off and not take her cigarettes with her. Absolutely. Gail's sister eventually did share with police. And it's a little unclear to me.

I'm guessing she shared it pretty early on. But she did share with police that Gail had confided in her that she had been having an affair and that she was prepared to leave Robert. And another friend corroborated that and said, in fact, Gail had told her that she was going to tell him she wanted a divorce on July 7th. July 7th. Oh. She told that friend that she expected Robert to refuse the divorce, but that she was prepared. She was going to show him that letter that the therapist had written saying, you are in danger. You need to get out of here. And to use that against him.

She was going to say, I'm going to show this to your colleagues. I'm going to show this to whoever. You're going to give that against him. She was going to say, I'm going to show this to your colleagues. I'm going to show this to whoever. You're going to give me a divorce. By this point, police believed that all of these things together, all of this was circumstantial evidence enough to show that Robert was responsible for Gail's disappearance. But there was no sign of Gail. Gail's disappearance, but there was no sign of Gail. There was no sign that she'd been, there was no evidence that a crime had been committed. Well, they didn't go in there. Right. Yeah, he'd had tons of time. Yeah, they'd given him tons of time. Yeah. So Gail's family is just spending months and months and months searching for her

putting up these flyers in the meantime fucking robert's living it up he's out in the hamptons with friends he moves on he starts dating other women oh my god yeah he moves a woman into the apartment. Oh, gross. Yeah, like, I don't know how long after. Couple months. Yeah, that's about right. Yeah. Couple months after Gail disappears, he moves another woman into the apartment. Here, come into where I murdered my wife.

Months and months have gone by and there is just no trace of Gail at all and no arrest was made. Gail's disappearance was still an open and active investigation and Detective Andy Rosenzwig was assigned to the case. So he was like supposed to look at it like with fresh eyes and look over it. And he said that, of course, it looked like Robert was somehow involved in this. And he took a note of something that was just kind of like absentmindedly noted in this investigation was that Robert was a licensed pilot. And no one had really looked into this before. And so they decided to look into Robert's flight logs. And it turns out that Robert had rented a plane from a New Jersey airport on July 7th, 1985. Yeah. Flown it for an hour and 56 minutes.

And then he'd altered his flight logs to make it look like that flight took place the next day. And he hadn't told a single person, not the police during this investigation, not his family, not Gail's family, that he had taken this flight. In fact, he told the police that he'd been home that whole afternoon waiting for Gail to get back. So the detective believed that Robert had killed Gail. Yeah. Loaded her body into that plane. Yep. Flown it over the Atlantic Ocean.

And dumped her. And dumped her out. Ugh. Yep. His flight time gave exactly the right amount of time to fly, like, round trip out into the ocean, back, and then get to the nephew's party at the time that he arrived there. Gross. So he presented this information to the DA's office, and they were like, it's not enough to secure a conviction.

We don't even know that Gail's dead at this point. We have no proof. Four years went by and this case just went cold. And then in May of 1989 – This is just sloppy police work is all this is because like what he did there. Yeah. Looking at those logs, that seems like basic work. Should have been done immediately.

Yeah. So what else – what other obvious things could have been done immediately? Yeah. Like a search of the apartment immediately. Yeah, no shit, right? Months went by before they got in the apartment. And they played by Robert's rules the whole time. Yeah.

Yeah. So four years after Gail was reported missing, in May of 1989, a torso washed up in Staten Island. So it's 1989. There's no DNA testing. What they did was they took an X-ray of this torso and compared it to an old chest X-ray of Gale's. Oh, wow. And an X-ray technician determined they were a match. This was determined to be Gail's torso.

It was then released to her family. They were able to have a burial for her. She was officially ruled dead. But again, no charges were brought. By this time, Robert's off living in Las Vegas. He'd opened a plastic surgery practice. Oh, God. He was dating this woman named Stephanie Youngblood.

She was a doctor of chiropractics. And she was having a very similar experience to the beginning of Gail and Robert's relationship. It was wonderful. They went to all these, like, black tie events because he was this big deal doctor. And they would go on ski trips. It was like amazing. It'd be 114 degrees in Las Vegas. So they'd just jump in his plane and fly to Argentina and do a nice little ski weekend.

What? Yeah. In Argentina? Yeah, in the mountains. Oh, okay. I didn't know. When I think Argentina, I guess I think hot. There's mountains there. Clearly, I don't fly off to Argentina very often. This woman, Dr. Stephanie Youngblood, she just believed that she had made the perfect catch. Of course. Robert was amazing. He was giving.

He joined an organization that it was a bunch of doctors who would go to Mexico and perform surgeries on children born with birth defects. He was doing amazing work. Yeah, I mean, you would think you caught a good one. Uh-huh. But as the time went on, Stephanie realized that, like, maybe she didn't know Robert that well. At one point, he admitted that he had been married before,

like, after they'd been in a relationship for quite some time. He was like, yeah, I don't really like to talk about it. She disappeared. It's really difficult. Yeah, that's weird. She said the way he told the story was so believable that, like, that it was painful for him. Uh-huh. Yeah.

Okay, shit. Yeah. I can see that. Right? Yeah. Yeah. It's like, well, I don't want to press. Yes. Shit. Yeah. I can see that. Right. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, well, I don't want to press. Yes.

Oh, no. But then there were a couple of incidents. There was one where like Robert just blew up at her and screamed at her in front of a bunch of other people. And she was stunned by it. Yeah. She kind was stunned by it. Yeah. She kind of let it go. But then it happened a second time.

And that second time she was like, we need to go to counseling. We need to get into counseling. If you want us to be a thing, we're going to go to counseling together because I can't handle this. And he agreed. And so they got into counseling and the therapist that they went and saw told Stephanie, you need to get out of this relationship. I believe your life is in danger. Wow. Can you believe that? No, I. Oh, gosh, that just fascinates me because my experience with therapy is the therapist kind of letting you go at your own pace and stuff. Yeah.

But in both of these instances, for a therapist to feel like, okay, no, I've got to say something. Yeah. You know it has to be terrible. And so Stephanie did. She left him. Good. Yeah. And Robert just kind of started over again.

In 1996, he married a woman and they moved to North Dakota where nobody knew him and started a family. They had a daughter. And no one in North Dakota knew anything about Robert Bierenbaum. In fact, he was kind of a local hero there. So he's this doctor that flies to Mexico and does these great surgeries. And he also saved a boy's

life after he was bitten by a tiger at the state fair. What? What? What kind of fucking state fair is this? I don't know! Yeah. Wait, are you going to tell me more about that?

That's all I know. It's the extent of my knowledge on that incident. My God. Yeah. People loved him. Well, sure. He was good looking.

He wore suits. He had this, he was like a great father. He had this child that he loved. He was super into dogs, not in a creepy way. I realized as I said that it sounded weird. No. Okay.

What about that seemed creepy? I said he was super into dogs. I guess, yeah, that does sound. I shouldn't have phrased it that way. Yeah. That's my fault. Horny for dogs is that you should have said it. So Robert's like living his best life.

La Vida Loca, yeah. North Dakota. But back in New York, Detective Rosenzweig like was nearing retirement and he was like going back over his cases of his career and he could not stop thinking about Gail Katz. Yeah, because she had clearly been murdered and he knew who had murdered her. Yeah, and so he's like, we just have to – this has to be a solvable case. Yeah. There's one suspect. We know who he is.

Yeah. We have to just be able to prove it. And so he reached out to Gail's family and was like, can we exhume the torso now that DNA testing is available? Yeah. We can confirm it's Gail for sure. And then maybe the DA would be willing to look at this case again. Yeah. And so they agreed.

They exhumed the torso. They did the DNA testing. And it wasn't Gail. Oh, no. Yeah. Oh, God, that's upsetting. Yeah. Do they know who it was?

I don't. Do they? No, I don't believe so. Oh, no. Yeah. So then they're like, holy shit. So now because of that, they then decided to just like re-examine the whole case, go back and re-interview everyone. And so they flew out to North Dakota.

They talked to Robert Bierenbaum. They went to Vegas and talked to Stephanie Youngblood. They talked to a bunch of other women that he had dated over the years. And one interview in particular kind of struck them as like, oh, that's kind of new information and very alarming. So this was a woman that he had dated when he was still in New York City. And she told them that like so she dated him pretty quickly after Gail had disappeared. And one night he got a phone call from the Port Authority who said something about like maybe someone had found Gail or there had been a sighting of Gail and that he should come down and talk to them. And he was like, oh, yeah. I'm in the middle of something.

I'll call you later. And they got off the phone, and he said to this woman that he was dating, it's not Gail. Or I doubt it's Gail. Or I don't think it's Gail. Something of that nature. And this stuck with this woman as kind of an alarming thing to say.

Well, did he say it's not Gail or I don't think it's Gail? Because those are two very different things. I doubt it's Gail is I believe what he said. I mean, don't get me wrong. He for sure did this. But and also, though, so much is just how you look when you say something. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

This was alarming enough to this woman that she remembered it all these years later. So with this reinvestigation, essentially, they re-put this case together and they take it to the DA again. They show them the flight logs. They show them. They lay it out for them. And the DA is like, I think we have enough here. And so they took it before a grand jury. And in 2000, a grand jury indicted Robert Bierenbaum for the second-degree murder of Gail Katz.

Wow. She'd been missing for 15 years. The prosecution said that they knew that this would be the toughest case that they had ever tried. There was no forensics, no eyewitness, no body. Yeah. It was entirely circumstantial. But when you put all of it together, it was so clear that there was only one possibility. Robert had murdered Gail.

The prosecution believed that Robert had killed Gail in their apartment, that he'd dismembered her body, had spent probably hours doing it, put her in some kind of duffel bag, had carried that duffel bag out of the apartment building through a back entrance where he wouldn't have to go through a lobby or see a doorman. Yeah. Then had carried that duffel bag to that plane, put it on the plane, and pushed it out when he was flying over the Atlantic Ocean. So it was really important for the prosecution to be able to show a jury that this was physically possible. And so they put together like a reenactment video of this.

Because they believed that Robert had acted alone. There was nobody else involved in this. And so when his trial began, the jury heard from four expert witnesses. So there was a medical examiner, a New York City police pilot, an aviation safety inspector, and like a flight instructor person. So they all testified that it was physically possible for Robert, this person with surgical experience. Oh, I didn't even think about that. Yes. Dismembered a body in a way that he could then put it in this duffel bag.

Gail was small. She was 5'3". She weighed 110 pounds. Oh, Lord. Yeah. Oh, Lord. Yeah. And then be able to carry that bag.

They showed how he could have gone out through an unmonitored rear exit of the apartment building, walked two blocks to the car where the car was parked. Two 50-pound bags of sand and a 10-pound bag of rice into a duffel bag and then reenacting all of this, walking the amount. They would have to walk, loading it into a car, then loading it into a plane. They were not able to use the exact plane that Robert had rented that day because it had been wrecked. It had been crashed in the time since then, not by Robert, by someone else. But they flew a similar plane out. Once the plane was out over the ocean, the pilot was able to slow the plane, take both hands off the controls, reach over, open the passenger door of the plane, and push the duffel bag out and then close the door. Wow.

It was completely possible. The prosecution told the jury about what they believed was the motive that Gail had had that affair and that she was confronting Robert, that she wanted a divorce, and that it was that day. Like, the plans were made. She had borrowed money from people to be able to move out, leave Robert. She told multiple people that it was going to happen that day. And then they presented the evidence of the flight logs that Robert had taken the flight, had rented the plane, and then had altered the logs to make it look as if he hadn't. And he hadn't told anybody that he'd taken that flight.

The prosecution presented all of the evidence about their toxic relationship and all of the previous examples of violence that had taken place within that relationship. They even had people who said that Robert himself had referred to their arguments as severe and explosive. The prosecution put Gail's therapist on the stand. So remember, Robert had said, had told the police that Gail's therapist had said she was suicidal. So her therapist took the stand and said that she never told Robert that. And that she didn't believe that to be true. Mm-hmm.

She didn't believe Gail was suicidal at all. Yeah. The defense said Robert was completely innocent. Gail had mental health issues. She had a drug problem. I don't know where that comes from. There was some report that, like, Robert said he found cocaine in her underwear drawer after she went missing. And so he told people she went off with drug dealers.

Great. Great. And that they said that she was unstable. They called a witness to the stand who said that he had seen Gail after she disappeared. She was in a bagel shop like a couple days after in New York City. But the prosecution was able to cross-examine him and the description of the person that witness saw in a bagel shop didn't match Gail's description at all. How did this person even get involved? Okay, fine.

Yeah. And that was the defense's case. It was all circumstantial. There's nothing here. And Gail's probably still alive. Well, they tried harder than my defense. The jury deliberated for five and a half hours before they found Robert guilty of second degree murder.

He was sentenced to 20 years to life in prison. He had to have been stunned by that. So Gail's sister said she was stunned by it. Yeah. She said when they read the verdict, she grabbed her brother's hand because she could not believe they said guilty. Yeah. I think they just hadn't like allowed themselves. No, you wouldn't. I mean, it's so obvious. And yet for 15 years, he got away with it. He was like living his best life. Yeah.

I'm actually surprised they got a guilty verdict because it's not a strong case. No. I mean, it's easy to look at it and say, oh, yeah, that's for sure what happened. Right. But as far as like a legal case, it's not a lot. Yeah. Robert filed multiple appeals following his conviction. He first claimed that the trial court had erred in allowing in some evidence about the previous toxicity of their relationship, that that shouldn't have been allowed in. That didn't

work out for him. And so then he appealed based on ineffective counsel and that didn't work out for him. So then he appealed on the basis that too much time had passed between when Gail disappeared and when he was charged with her murder. And that also did not work out for him. All of those appeals were denied. Yeah. In 2020, after serving 20 years of his sentence, Robert had his first parole hearing. And at that parole hearing, he confessed to murdering Gail. No way. Yep. Holy shit, what'd he say? He said that they had gotten into an argument. Oh my God.

And that Gail was yelling at him and he just wanted her to stop. And so he attacked her. Holy shit. He strangled her. And then he did exactly what the prosecution had theorized he did. Well, sure, yeah. The parole board asked him why he killed Gail. And he said that he was immature at the time and didn't understand how to deal with his anger.

Wow. I am stunned. Stunned. Stunned. Stunned. The investigators and the prosecutors and Gail's family were all shocked by this confession. They all knew that this is what had to have happened. Of course they knew. But never in a million years did they think they'd get him to confirm it.

Right. Yeah. He was denied parole at that hearing. And so I read that he was up for parole again in 2021. I did not hear any outcome of that. So I assume he's still in prison. To this day, Gail's House in honor of Gail Katz. Its mission is to bring greater awareness to domestic violence issues and provide resources for women.

What about the women? For women, actually. Elaine Katz said she allowed them to use her sister's name as a way to honor her memory. My sister's body has never been found. Gail doesn't rest anywhere. Gail's house gave my sister a resting place. I feel my sister's spirit is here, warning others, inspiring others. Wow. And that's the story of a disappearance. Okay. What do you make of that parole hearing, of that admission?

I don't fucking know. I think he had to think that was his best chance at getting parole, right? See, it's funny because that's kind of what I came to also. Because my initial thought is like, oh, my gosh, has he done a ton of work on himself? Yeah, of course you'd hope that's what it to. Yeah. Because my initial thought is like, oh my gosh, has he done a ton of work on himself? Yeah, of course you'd hope that's what it is. I mean, yeah,

you absolutely would, but it's just so rare for someone to, I mean, yeah, my, I don't know, he probably, it's probably exactly

what you think it is. Yeah. That he thought, you know what'll surprise him. Yeah. Oh my gosh. I'm so glad they finally got him, though. Yeah.

Absolutely. So, now I can't remember. He had remarried, right? He had remarried and he had a child. What did the new wife think of this? I don't know. I didn't find any statements from her or anything. Ooh, that would be wild.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. She may have really dodged something there. Yeah, no kidding. Or she may not see it that way and think that, you know, it's a terrible thing. You never know.

Go, go, go! Ooh, you know what we should do now? Take some questions from our Discord. That's right. To get in our Discord, all you have to do is join our Patreon at the $5 level or higher. Join our Patreon, won't you? Yeah, do it. Do it.

No nuts. Do it. Ooh, Busted Zinger wants to know, I recently adopted a dog from an animal shelter and have been trying to take her on regular walks. I was curious, Kristen, what are your absolute necessities when walking your puppers? As a bonus, here's a pic of my new dog, Nutter Butter. Oh, my gosh. Nutter Butter is adorable.

Nutter Butter is so cute. Yes. Oh, my gosh. Okay, here's the thing, Busted Zinger. Dog walking, it's not time for glamour. That's what I always say. So I get my visor on. I have a belt that I wear that has like a pouch attached to it. It's made specifically for dog walking. In it, I keep some treats for the dogs. I keep the poop bags. I also keep my cell phone in there. And then, you know, I put in my little earbuds and I listen to podcasts.

And you look super cute. No one has ever stopped me and said that. No, those are the essentials. Do you have essentials for walking Oliver? No, you know, Oliver just likes a real quick walk. He doesn't, he's not into that. No belt needed? Yeah, no, we just have a real basic leash, and he likes to get his business done

and then move it on back into the air-conditioned home. Very good, diva dog. I couldn't disagree with this more. I'm sorry. Yes, but is it illegal, says popcorn toppings. Do you go sweet, salty, savory, or a mix? I like to do a bit of a buttery, salty popcorn and M&Ms. However, they cannot be in the same container the M&Ms melt.

I like popcorn, and then while it's still hot, you sprinkle the M&Ms over it. So they do get melty. And then you put it all in and it's delicious. Sounds like a mess. Do you eat it with a spoon? No, because they only get melty inside. They've got that convenient candy coated shell to keep it from getting everywhere. What is your experience in life? getting everywhere. What is your experience in life?

The candy-coated shell, they say that it doesn't melt. But, like, if you've ever had some M&Ms in the palm of your hand, you know that the dye gets onto your hand, your sweaty palm. Yeah, so you just, it's, you've got to do it in a swift motion. So you get yourself a little, a little handful of popcorn with M&Ms in it, and you just toss it all back. See, I think you're moving more quickly than the average bear. Because I am with this person. Like, it gets too melty.

It's a mess. Yeah. You got to maintain the integrity of the M&M. No. It works out perfect. I like it because it gets all melty. I wish you weren't so wrong. You like hot sauce on your popcorn.

I like basically anything. I mean, I'm not mad about butter and salt and M&Ms on the side. I also wouldn't be upset about them being mixed in, but I would say this is messy and I'd eat it anyway. But no, I am a hot sauce gal. You've done that since we were young children. Has it scarred you for life? It was always the weirdest thing to me because you wouldn't put it on the popcorn. You would create like a little – you'd have it like so that you could dip a – Oh, now I go balls out.

Dip a piece in. Now I do. Oh, okay. I've evolved, Brandy. Okay. Jill wants to know, are there any words or phrases other than DP that you've had to teach your parents? I just had to prove to my dad that snuggle is a real word. Jill, that's a very blessed experience to just have to explain the word snuggle.

I've had to explain cock block to my mother when she used it out of context. I also had to use the word sausage fest. I had to explain that one to her when she used it out of context. What about you? Have you had to do? I mean, probably, but none that stick in my memory like the ones you've had to do with your parents. No, my favorite thing was not with my parents, but with one of my lovely clients, Miss Doreen, who is in her 70s and enjoys the podcast. And she asked me what DP meant.

I was like, Doreen, are you sure you want to know? And she's like, yes, I want to know. And so I told her and she said, oh, so just like a Tuesday night. Just try to shock Doreen. You can't do it. You can't do it. Esther Pants says, I left a really toxic work environment and a co-worker that did not like or respect me. I moved on to my new role and he moved to Florida.

He's tried to contact me recently. I assume because he's moving back and needs help finding a new employer. I have no interest in reconnecting. How would you respond? I fucking wouldn't. Yeah. Yeah. You're under no obligation.

Bye. Yeah, that's an easy one. You ever not responded? You ever cold-shouldered somebody? Yes. Ooh, okay. Doppenditz asks, Kristen, would you let Brandy do the hair roulette challenge? What's the hair roulette challenge? Okay, so you haven't seen this on TikTok? No. Okay, so it's where, you know, someone comes into a hairstylist that they obviously really trust. Yeah. And the hairstylist stands behind them and they hold up two options for different things. So like it starts with like, okay, do you want to do a bold change or, you know, not? And they choose that. And they

do like three different choices. Like you want to chop it off or keep it, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah. Would you do that? Oh, yeah. I know you would. Yeah, of course I would. You'd absolutely do it. Would you do it, though? I would hate it.

I know you would. See, that's the funny thing is people think it would be tough for me. No, you would be like, absolutely. And I would be like, oh, what if she doesn't like it? No, I mean, I'm kind of, well, you know how I am. It's like if I'm around someone and they're a professional at it and I've been around them enough to know like, yeah, this is a professional who knows their shit. Yeah, I'll take a chance. You would be way more into it than I would.

Oh, absolutely. I would be a nervous fucking wreck. I'd be excited. Yes. And even if I didn't like it, I'd be like, it's fine. Yeah. You know. Yeah.

Would you ever allow someone to do that to you? No. You didn't even think about it. No, absolutely not. Okay, who is the best hairstylist in the world in your opinion? Oh, gosh. I don't know. There's lots of really great hairstylists.

Right. But, I mean, is there someone who, like, you couldn't even get an appointment with? Okay, when I was a brand-new stylist, I loved Nick Orojo. Like, I got to see him do a platform performance. Like, he's, oh, was obsessed with him. Okay. Nick Orojo. He's, no?

Not a chance. Not a chance? Absolutely not. What the? Brandy. No. Really? Yeah.

Absolutely not. No. Really? Yeah. Absolutely not. Wow. What if you chopped my hair off? Well, it would grow back. Not a chance. I wouldn't do it. Not the least bit interested in doing it. I can tell.

I can tell. Wow. I can tell. I can tell. Wow. GSizzle89 says, Brandy, what has been your favorite and least favorite parts of wedding planning? I'm also planning my wedding, and it's been simultaneously heaven and hell. I will tell you that I was so overwhelmed by wedding planning initially that I didn't like it at all I am just now to the point where I am super fucking excited for the wedding because most of the planning is done now that makes sense to

me yeah yeah you've made all the hard decisions and now it's the fun part yes yeah yeah now I cannot wait for the wedding so what's been your most favorite part? Hmm. I mean, picking the venue was my favorite part. Okay. Yeah. Why? Well, what we ended up with was not what I thought we would do at all. So. Yeah.

Yeah. You thought Denny's. Right. In that back room. Yeah. We're just going to book the back room. With the mops. Yeah.

And just lumberjacks all around. That's a meal there. Oh, okay. I was like, just hot dudes surrounding you. I should have said Grand Slams all around. Like, that's the meal everyone knows. Right. You really went for, like, the less popular option.

I don't know why that's the one that, like, came to mind immediately. What comes with a lumberjack? I don't know. I think it's,'s like all the stuff. You get like pancakes and eggs and ham and bacon and sausage. Yeah. What gets you more food, a Grand Slam or a lumberjack? A lumberjack.

I think it's like their biggest breakfast. Lumberjack! I got you. I understand the big manly stuff. Ooh, Richard N. Balls asks, did Noodles and Company ever bring back the spicy chicken Caesar wrap? No, they fucking didn't. Which is weird because we talked about that on our podcast that had ten listeners. Ten listeners.

It's like they don't care. Have you been there lately? No! Yeah, exactly. No, I'm done with it. No one has. They are dead to me. Dead to me.

Because literally six years ago, they changed their menu. Yes! They know what they did. Yeah. Blayslays wants to know, if you could make any pet peeve of yours illegal, what would it be? Well, I mean, I think my biggest pet peeves are, like, bad driving, and that's already illegal. Yeah, no, you can't, like, double illegal.

I have road rage when I drive because I can't stand people who don't follow the rules of the road. Oh, what? You think you're fucking special and don't need to use your turn signal? You know, the turn signal is not for you. It's for everybody else around you, asshole. Ma'am, are you aware you're not in a car right now? It is moments like these that I'm like, Norman and Brandy are the same person. Right.

Because you're not like hot-tempered people in general. But man. Put us behind the wheel of a car. And have someone act a fool. And wow. Yes. Oh, everyone will hear about it. Yes.

Oh, my God. I think I would make gum illegal. Oh, yeah. hear about it. Oh, my God. I think I would make gum illegal. Oh, yeah. You hate gum. It's a gross thing. Yeah, I think I would make it illegal. And instead, we have more mints in the world.

Yeah, you're just outlawing gum and replacing it with mints. Yeah. I See Fat Legs asks, do particularly terrible cases ever leave you depressed and drained after recording an episode? Oh, fuck yeah. Absolutely. All the time. And absolutely. Absolutely.

If so, do you sit with your emotions, journal them out, or do something to distract you? Yes. They affect both of us a lot because we have to read so much about them to do these episodes. And then, yeah, you have to tell it. And sometimes it's really terrible. So I always like Wednesday nights for me, I always watch like light television to. Yeah. Also, we're both sensitive people with so much to give.

No, we are sensitive people, sir. Yes. So we react. Absolutely. Nancy Drew wants to know, what's your worst habit? I don't have one. What's yours? I don't do anything but amazing things all the time.

I have bad habits. I chew on my fingernails. I don't really bite my fingernails, but I chew on my fingernails. I used to bite my fingernails. It's like an evolution of biting my fingernails. What? That doesn't make any sense at all. Yeah.

So I just like run my teeth around my fingernails instead of actually biting them. You know what? You're following the letter of the law, but not the spirit of the law. And don't think that I don't notice. Missy. What's your bad habit? Oh, my God. I've got so many.

I know what your bad habit is. What is it? You eat like right before we're going to go. Like, you just can't wait the 30 minutes. I can't. I can't. Everyone, we recorded Monday night. And I knew Brandy was coming over in, like, legit half an hour.

And we were going to go to dinner. Yeah. And I ate a whole chicken breast and two handfuls of cashews, which I know is weird. And like if that was the first time she had done that, that would not be a bad habit. No, she does it all the time. She's like, I'm just not that hungry. Because I ate 13 pickles

and also a cheese stick and it's always something weird. It's never like I had this great option that I couldn't pass up. No, I don't know. Sometimes I get hungry. Yeah, I get that. Eat when you're hungry. Yeah, but you don't. Like, you would wait.

No, I will wait until we're going to go have the meal. Yeah, you would wait 500 hours. I would. And you would wait 500 more. Man, I've worked in a lot of songs into this. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.

Hmm. Hmm. Judge Gerst Rederst wants to know, with the new change in the Supreme Court decisions, how do you feel about getting more judges on the Supreme Court? I don't know that more judges would solve that problem. I don't either. I'm not opposed to more judges. No. I just don't know if that judges would solve that problem. I don't either. I'm not opposed to more judges. No.

I just don't know if that solves anything. It's funny. My solutions are all like things that could never happen. It's like, well, I kind of feel like if it's going to be basically a lifetime appointment, then maybe that should be something we all vote on. Yeah. But then at the same time, I'm like, we'll take the money out of it. But yeah, I think we're in this position now where we've got some extremists who aren't representing what the people want or what's good for the majority of people.

And so I wonder what we do with that. Yeah, I don't know what the solution is, but it's definitely something that needs to be examined. Well, that is a way of saying words and saying nothing at all. I am not smart enough to know what the solution to that is, but I'm smart enough to recognize there's a problem with the way it's currently operating. Yeah. Ugh. There's a problem with the way it's currently operating. Yeah.

Well. And really, decisions that are being handed down at this point do not match the majority of what people want. And that's not to say that we should always go with what the majority want. I mean, it's kind of funny when you think about some really important Supreme Court decisions that we all admire, it's like, wow, that was really moving us forward when the majority of Americans probably would have been against it. Oh, gosh. But now we're in this weird position where they're making a decision about you, buddy. Yeah.

I mean, that's what happens when you have religious cult members on the Supreme Court. Religious cult members? Yeah. Amy Coney Barrett? You know anything about her religious affiliations? No, I know. She's – I know she's a nut. But I mean it would be great if we just had one nut but we've got a whole bunch of them oh boy probably cut it off there all right let's move on to some supreme court inductions. But how do you get inducted into the Supreme Court? All you have to do is join our Patreon. Be a religious nut.

No. And want to take people's rights away. That's all we're looking for. At the $7 level or higher. Bonus points if you've sexually harassed someone horribly. No. We won't question you. We will question the accuser. Oh, sorry. Is this too real you. We will question the accuser.

Oh, goodness gracious. Oh, sorry. Is this too real? It is. It's too real. We're continuing to read your names and your favorite cookies. Cookies. Stacey Rice.

Snickerdoodle. Alyssa Taylor. Peanut Butter Blossoms with Mini M&Ms. Oh, shit. Okay. Beth Kendall. Chocolate chip ice cream sandwich. Does that count?

I don't know. I guess I'll allow it. Chelsea Gulbranson. Oatmeal chocolate chip. Elissa Pignoli. Pignoli? No, that's the... Oh, for fuck's sake.

Elissa is her name. Thank you! Pignoli is her favorite cookie. And reading words is your game. My sincerest apologies, Elissa. Nicole C. Packaged sugar cookies with holiday designs. No, Nicole.

Kristen hates those. I'm sorry, we can't allow you to have those anymore, Nicole. Alex Bracken. White chip macadamia nut. Wait, don't you say white chocolate chip macadamia? Did you not have time, Alex?

White chocolate chip. We got to. Kylie Wise. Lemon sugar cookies with lemon frosting. Okay. Dana. Sugar cookies. Stephanie Susco.

Undercooked sugar cookies. Oh, Stephanie just stole Dana's cookies. Bam. Yep. Kicking it up a notch. No, Stephanie just stole Dana's cookies. Bam! Yep. Kicking it up a notch. No, I'm saying like she stole them out of the oven. Oh! Then Dana comes around on cookies.

They're all eaten by Stephanie. I got it now. All right. It was a pretty sophisticated scenario. Page R. Ginger molasses cookies. Victoria Sainsbury. Chocolate chip.

Jessica Nowabilski. My mom's homemade snickerdoodles. Cookies. Victoria Sainsbury. Chocolate Chip. Jessica Nowabilski. My mom's homemade snickerdoodles. Melissa Henderson. Thin Mints. Andrea. Chocolate Chip. Welcome to the Supreme Court! Hey, why don't you play poker in the jungle?

Too many cheetahs? Ha ha ha! Ha ha ha! Stupid! Too many cheetahs? Stupid. And yet you laughed. Oh, boy. You even supplied the punchline and you laughed. Anyway, thank you, everyone, for all of your support. We appreciate it so much.

If you're looking for other ways to support us, please find us on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Patreon. Please remember to subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen and head on over to Apple Podcasts and leave us a five-star rating and review. And be sure to what? Don't I usually say this? Oh, I'm sorry. I'm so sorry. I thought you wanted me to say it.

Go ahead. Go ahead. Keep going. And be sure to join us next week. Then you say when we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned. Was that the first fucking time we've done it?

I don't know what to tell you. You know, it's our second broadcast in just a few days, and maybe the wheels are falling off. All right. Now, note for a battle process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste. I'm limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste I'm just kidding. And I copy and paste

from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. I got my info from the article, The Case of Adolph Coors by Mara Boveson for the New York Daily News, as well as the article, On the Run from One Murder, He Accidentally Committed Another

and Joined the FBI's Most Wanted List by Cheryl E.D. for Gizmodo. That really does give it all away. Well, and do they not have a word count on their headlines? My God. Also, How an Escaped Convict Terrorized the Coors Beer Dynasty by Seth Ferranti for Vice. Also, Forensic Files, their episode Bitter Brew, and reporting in newspapers.com and the Denver Post. Seth Ferranti for Vice. Also, Forensic Files, their episode Bitter Brew,

and reporting in newspapers.com and the Denver Post. I got my info from an episode of 2020 that I read and did not watch. Chillingcrimes.com, articlesforheavy.com, and oxygen.com, and the court record. For a full list of our sources,

visit lgtcpodcast.com. Any errors... Yes! Oh, this is your first time doing this? PC podcast.com. Any errors. Yes. This is your first time doing this. Any errors are of course ours, but please don't take our word for it. Go read their stuff.

I can't believe you messed that up.