Let's Go To Court! - 225: This One's So Bad We Invented a Strip Club

Episode Date: August 31, 2022

Tynesha Stewart was exceptionally bright and beautiful. She studied civil engineering at Texas A&M University. But a few years earlier, when she was still in high school, Tynesha met Timothy Wayne Shepherd. Timothy was 25, but that didn’t stop him from pursuing Tynesha romantically. Their relationship soon turned abusive.  Then Kristin tells us about a case of racial profiling that’s so scummy it’s almost hard to believe. (But believe it, sister.) On September 4, 1992, an elderly white woman was attacked in her bed. She later told police that her attacker had been a black male. With little to go on, police decided to question every black male in Oneonta, New York. (And a few black women, because… why not?) The administration of SUNY at Oneonta aided the investigation by providing the names and addresses of all their black male students.  And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: The documentary “Brothers of the Blacklist”  “Brown, Black and the persistence of profiling,” by Sherrilyn A. Ifill for The Root “Brown v. City of Oneonta,” NYCLU.org “The story of Brown v. City of Oneonta: The uncertain meaning of racially discriminatory policing under the equal protection clause,” by R. Richard Banks for Stanford Public Law and Legal Theory Working Paper Series “Brown v. City of Oneonta,” entry on Wikipedia In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “Tynesha Stewart, 19, Was Murdered & Dismembered By Ex-Boyfriend In 2007” by Erika Marie, ourblackgirls.com “Solved: The brutal murder of Tynesha Stewart” by Mary Hallberg, maryhallbergmedia.com “Tynesha DeVonna Stewart” thecharleyproject.org “Police: Student was killed, then burned on grill” by Associated Press, NBC News “Officials: No landfill search for A&M student” by Paige Hewitt, Houston Chronicle “Houston man accused of cooking woman's body goes to trial” by Brian Rogers, Houston Chronicle “Harris County man takes stand, tells of killing A&M student” by Brian Rogers, Houston Chronicle “Mom of abuse victim wants others to see signs” by Paige Hewitt, Houston Chronicle “Murder of Tynesha Stewart” wikipedia.org “Timothy Wayne Shepherd v. The State of Texas” justia.com YOU’RE STILL READING? My, my, my, you skeezy scunch! You must be hungry for more! We’d offer you some sausage brunch, but that gets messy. So how about you head over to our Patreon instead? (patreon.com/lgtcpodcast). At the $5 level, you’ll get 38+ full length bonus episodes, plus access to our 90’s style chat room!  

One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court. On this episode, I'll be talking about the blacklist. And I'll be talking about a horrible murder.

Oh, same, same, same, same, same. Gonna make us cry, are ya? Oh, that's pretty bad. Oh, good, oh, good. How dare you? I know.'s pretty bad. Oh, good. Oh, good. Yeah. How dare you? I know. On this day of all days. I know.

Okay, funny story, everyone. What? I showed up to record today, and Kristen was, like, at the door with it open with, like, a concerned look on her face, and she's holding something in her hand, and she's like, have you seen Norm? Is he outside? And what's this card? This was just like in the door. And she opens

it up. What? And it was a happy anniversary card from DP and Sheree Ray. Both Kristen and Norm forgot that today was their wedding anniversary. Which is a tradition. Because you did it

last year as well! Also, fun fact, on our wedding, we both forgot to bring the rings to give to each other at the ceremony. So did you not exchange rings? No, my mom and dad just handed us their rings.

As like, you know, because it's, you know. Yeah, you know, it's just symbolic. It didn't feel like I was marrying my dad. Don't worry. Great. Anyway. Happy anniversary

to you and Norm. Yeah, thank you. We are as surprised as you are. Celebrating in style. With you. That's right.

I was like, hey guys, can I go to your anniversary lunch with you? Yes, but you have to fuck us both. That's right. I was like, hey guys, can I go to your anniversary lunch with you? Yes, but you have to fuck us both. Oh no! And she did. It was very romantic for all of us.

And now here we are to tell you some sad stories. Oh, before you bum everyone the hell out, should we try to get some money from them? Yeah, join our Patreon. We got a hot new bonus episode. What did we talk about? We talked about, oh, LGBT cases. Yeah, it was an accidental theme. Yeah.

It was a good episode. It was a good episode. I was on it. Brandi also made an appearance. Don't say I also made an appearance. My story was first. My story was second, and it didn't contain the last name Bottoms.

And it was terrible, and I felt like I'd been punched in the gut. You were really mad about it. I'm not over it yet. But then we did the Q&A portion at the end, and you forgot how bad my case was, and you were happy again, and it was just a real rollercoaster ride for all of us.

It's a rollercoaster of emotions. Anyway. To listen to that, all you have to do is join our Patreon at the $5 level or higher. And there's like, I don't know, 38 of those fucking bonus episodes on there. It's a lot of bonus episodes.

All of them meaty. That's right. Extra meat. Are you going to tell your story or are you delaying? I guess I'll tell it. By the way, if you're enjoying this ad-free episode, that's because we did this on purpose. It's so you can get a taste of what it's like.

Taste of what the Suite Life is like. Yeah. At the top tier on our Patreon, you get ad-free episodes. And that's what this is. It's not just because, you know, no one wanted to buy an ad on this episode. That's for sure. Not why. Because we said no to every single person who asked if they could buy an ad on this episode. Here's what we've discovered, gang.

When you've got a mostly, an audience of mostly women, and you don't want to promote diet products, and you're not many people are doing that. Or like weird potions. You would not believe the amount of ads we say no to. And that's only because we are creating our own weird potions. That's right. Yeah.

And we don't want the competition. It's hitting the market soon. What are we going to call it? Okay. First of all, what would it do? I don't know. I'm thinking booty like brandy. Oh, I like it.

Curls like Kristen. Yeah. So we got like a hair tonic and a butt lotion. All in one. You can use it on either. Oh, I like it. Well, we know it doesn't work. So put it wherever you want. Anyway, that's coming soon.

It's coming soon. All right, let me tell this terrible story so I can be done with it I'm so bummed about this story well did someone force you to do this at gunpoint? no but then I read a bunch of stuff and like I was like ugh I'm gonna talk about something else

this is terrible and then like I read too much stuff yeah it was like no I'm in on this case alright shoutouts to Erica Marie for ourblackgirls.com a'm in on this case. All right. Shout outs to Erica Marie for OurBlackGirls.com. A great entry on this case there.

And an article by Mary Hallberg for MaryHallbergMedia.com. Another great article there. And also TheCharlieProject.com. So all of these three places had great, like, synopsises. Synopses. Synopsi. Synopsi. In this case. Plus, they also linked to sources.

So it was really wonderful. Okay. Glad for you. Yes, thank you. Now let's get bummed. Okay. All right, hold on. Let me take a drink of water.

Let me shake out this. Wow, you're really stalling. Yeah. I feel like I stall and you never do. Okay, here we go. Okay. Tanisha Stewart was an impressive young woman. Her loved ones described her as ambitious and tenacious.

She knew what she wanted and she went after those things. They also said she was a girly girl who preferred to stay indoors, which, same. That's a Brandy move right there. In high school, she was an honor student who managed the basketball team. And when asked why she chose to manage rather than play, she said she liked basketball but didn't like to sweat. Okay. Relatable.

Yeah, I mean, is this you? Right. In approximately 2004, it's really hard for me to nail down the year here, but I did some math. When Tanisha was 16, she was in her junior year of high school, and she got a job at a pizza hut near her home in Houston, Texas. It was while she was working there that she met Timothy Shepard. It was while she was working there that she met Timothy Shepard. Despite the fact that Tim was nine years older than Tanisha, which made him a grown-ass 25-year-old man who had no business fraternizing with a 16-year-old, the two quickly hit it off and before long they were in a relationship. No.

Nope. Nope. I'll make you a deal. You just stopped the story. We forget you even started it. Wonderful. Let's hear your story. Tanisha lied to her parents about Tim's age and initially they seemed to like him, but that didn't last long. Tanisha's friends and family quickly determined that her relationship with Tim was toxic. He was super jealous. He was possessive. He was controlling.

She had a younger sister, I believe, that she kind of like confided in, and she told her sister that Tim had threatened her. Another one of her siblings said that she had seen Tim be abusive or like had grabbed her or pushed her or something of that nature. And there was an incident fairly early on in the relationship, I believe, where Tanisha was at Tim's apartment and which is just she's 16 and he's 25. Yeah. Anyway, she was like they'd gotten into an argument and she wanted to leave and he refused to let her leave and like block the door. But the relationship continued. And as it went on, he tried to isolate her from

her friends and family. At one point, one article said that they were actually like living together at his apartment, but she was still in high school. So I'm not really sure how that was going on. But, you know, who knows? People started to notice that this relationship was not healthy, though. At one point, Tanisha's mom, Gail, Gail Shields, thought that Tanisha didn't seem like herself. She thought she seemed kind of depressed. And she noticed that she was getting a lot of phone calls from Tim. Like he was always calling, like checking in on her. Who is she with?

What is she doing? Always calling, like checking in on her. Who is she with? What is she doing? And so Gail tried to respect Tanisha's privacy and not pry too much into her relationship. But she also tried to suggest to Tanisha that maybe like she was pushing herself too hard. Maybe you're working too much. Maybe you're, you know, spending too much time with Tim. Like maybe give yourself a break.

Cut back your hours at work. And then other people who were close to Tanisha started noticing some bruising on her. It was very clear that this was not a good relationship. But every time anybody asked her about it, Tanisha said she was good. Everything was fine. And she was doing really well. She graduated high school in the top 10% of her class. She got a bunch of scholarships to Texas A&M. And she was really excited to go away to school. So this was about like 90 miles north of where she lived in Houston. So she would be like living on campus. It would kind of take her away. And she felt really excited about that opportunity. So she started at Texas A&M in 2006.

She was majoring in civil and chemical engineering, which sounds so easy. So hard. So did Tim or what's his face? His name's Tim. So he moved there? He did not. He stayed in Houston, but they stayed together and did like a long distance thing initially. But by the end of her first semester there, they had broken up.

And at one point they had broken up and then they'd gotten back together. Tim had a young daughter and he reconciled with his daughter's mom at some point. But then he continued to call Tanisha even while she was away at school. And if he couldn't get a hold of her, he would call her roommate and her friends. Oh, cool. Yeah. I'm sure that was welcome. Yeah.

Sometimes he would even just like show up on campus. Ew. Yeah. It wasn't great. So they reconciled somewhere around Christmas. They got back together. But by January of 2007, they were done. They were completely broken up.

And in February, Tanisha started seeing someone else, a guy named Mark. Like they'd met at school. They were about the same age. Like, yeah, it seemed like a normal, solid way to go. Absolutely. And for a while, Tim stopped calling Tanisha. But then when he found out that she was interested in someone else, the calls started picking back up. And, yeah, it was just a bad situation.

By spring break of 2007, Tanisha was 19. And she was thinking about like coming home for spring break, like most college students do. But she was worried about what that would mean for her interaction with Tim. It would put her back in the same town he was in. And she felt like he would bother her while she was there. He'd show up at her house. He'd follow her around.

He'd interrupt her while she was doing stuff with her friends. But ultimately she decided that she was going to go. And so she went back home. She hung out with some friends. She made plans to go to a concert. I couldn't find what concert. All I found was that it was at a rodeo. So country concert maybe.

All right. Okay. And then she did at one point end up hanging out with Tim Shepard. Tim picked her up from a friend's house and she left her cell phone behind. Okay, I really tried to get to the bottom of this if this was like an intentional thing to not take her cell phone with her or if she accidentally left it. But the official court record says that she was at her friend Lois' house and Tim came to pick her up and that she left her phone behind and told Lois she would be back to get it. What year was this? 2007.

Hmm. Okay, I don't really have a theory. I know. I don't either. I'm not really sure. It seems odd that she would go without her cell phone. Right. Unless...

Gosh, I don't even think in 2007 when they only have, like, the tracking apps that they have now. Like, maybe she didn't want her mom to know she was with Tim. I don't know. I don't know. Yeah. But she never came back to get her cell phone. Mm-hmm. And she never showed up at the concert.

And she never showed up back at home. And so when Tanisha didn't come home, Gail was like, okay, this isn't like Tanisha. Where is she? And so she immediately went to Tim Shepard's apartment and was like, where's my daughter? Yeah. So it turned out that Tanisha had spoken to her sister at one point when she was with Tim. I believe like it was like noon the day that she was supposed to come back home.

So she spoke to her sister at like noon and then never showed up home that night. And so her sister knew she had been with Tim. And so that's why Gail went to Tim's apartment and was like, where's my daughter? And she's like, and he admitted that they'd been together the day before. She'd come back to his apartment. She'd been there until, like, the early morning hours. But they'd gotten into a fight because he had asked about this guy that she was seeing at school. And she said that she wasn't going to talk about it with him and that she'd stormed off. And that was it.

It was the last he'd seen her. And Gail was like, nope. She knew immediately that this was not the case. Gail said that Tanisha wouldn't go anywhere on her own at night. She wouldn't even cross the street on her own. So the idea that she would storm out of Tim's apartment at 2, 3 o'clock in the morning just was not going to happen. Two, three o'clock in the morning. Just not going to happen.

Was not going to happen. So I think this took place on like a Saturday that she, you know, Tanisha doesn't come home. And so that Monday, Gail reported Tanisha missing. Interesting note here. Not that interesting. Just fucking terrible and disturbing. So remember how Tim was like really obsessed with Tanisha and called her all the time.

Didn't call her a single time after she went missing. Yeah, of course. Yeah. Yep. So, Gail reports Tanisha missing. They start a search like immediately and investigators immediately talk to Tim Shepard. They went to his apartment and he said the same thing that he told Gail that, yes, he'd been with Tanisha.

They had gotten in an apartment. They'd gotten in an apartment. They'd gotten into a fight at his apartment in that she'd left somewhere between 3 and 4 a.m. And that he hadn't talked to her since. It turns out, though, that the police had actually been to Tim's apartment before this, before Tanisha had maybe been reported missing or before the police were involved with her missing person case, because the neighbors had called 911. Oh. So they learned that Tim's neighbor, 18-year-old James Herbert. Well, I thought it was Herbert, but it might be Hebert.

You lost so much confidence. I did. Well, in my head, I've read it as Herbert every time. And now that I'm looking at it, there's no R before the B, so it might be James Hebert. I'm just putting an extra R in there. Or I have a typo here. There's no way to know. We don't make errors on this podcast, so it couldn't be that.

So 18-year-old James H. was Tim Shepard's neighbor. They were good friends, and they barbecued together regularly. So much so. Boy, he loved teenagers, didn't he? Yeah, no fucking shit. So much so that James actually stored his grill on Tim's balcony. And Tim had a smoker on his balcony because they just, whenever they were going to grill, they'd just grill together. And they'd grill at Tim's house.

So, for two days after Tanisha went missing, Tim grilled nonstop. At one point. What do you mean nonstop? Like, round the clock, he was grilling and using the smoker on his patio. Brandy. Kristen, I told you this case was fucking terrible. Brandy. Neighbors complained that the smell was horrible. No, no, no.

And the flames got out of control at one point that they were so close to the building. Oh, my God. That neighbors called 911 and firefighters showed up on the scene. Oh, my God. They came to Tim's apartment and they asked him what he was doing. The neighbors asked what he was doing. His neighbor, James, was like, hey, what are you doing? You're grilling without me. And he told everybody that he was cooking for a wedding. Oh, my God. And that was why he was grilling so much. That was why he was grilling around the clock. And that's why he couldn't share what he was grilling. Oh, my God. And when they complained about. Oh, this is so awful. When they complained about the smell, he said it was the spices that he was using.

Interestingly enough, initially it was like, no, you can't come in my house. I've got the fire under control. You can see that, like, I'm just grilling. Everything's fine. Eventually, on this call, they actually did go into his house and... Okay. And they found meat floating in the bathtub. Oh. There was like ribs.

Oh, my God. And just like chunks of meat. And then on the stove, there were chunks of cooked meat. Fuck. Mm-hmm. But nobody found this alarming. They just believed his story that he was barbecuing up a whole bunch of meat for a wedding. Do you think that's weird?

No, I think it would be easy to believe that story. Yeah, I mean, I think that's the most believable. It's like, oh, God, I'm glad I'm not going to this fucking wedding. Yeah. With your bathtub meet. Bathtub meet, yeah. But, yeah, I don't think I'd jump to the worst conclusion. No, I wouldn't either.

Yeah. Oh, my God. So this happens, you know, at this point, Tanisha has, I believe, not been officially reported missing or the police are not yet involved. And so when the police are involved, they learn of this incident and they come back to Timothy's apartment and ask him if they can look at it again. Initially, he was like, no. And then he lets them in and they don't find anything that alarming. Like, it was pretty messy. It hadn't been, like, real, like, cleaned up, but they did notice one spot on one wall that was freshly painted.

And when they walked into the bathroom, there was the smell of cleaners and ammonia. And so they made note of that, but that was it. You have to say words because we're on a podcast, Kristen. You did this to yourself by telling me about someone who was grilled. Yeah, it's fucking terrible. Okay, this is where they lose me. You go into someone's nasty-ass apartment, but, oh, they're real clean in the bathroom. They're just, like, super clean in the bathroom.

Super clean, and they have one freshly painted wall. No, that's where you lose me. Yeah. I believe they did bring Tim in for questioning at that point, but they asked him a few questions and then let him go. He stuck to a story that she had left, that Tanisha had left around 3 or 4 in the morning after they'd had an argument. But Tanisha being missing became big news. There were searches going on. There were posters being put out.

There were posters being put out. And on March 21st, so what's this? Two days after Tanisha was reported missing, probably four days after she went missing, Tim actually reached out to this man named Quannell X. So he is like a local activist in the Houston area. This is actually similar to what I talked about in the Precious Doe case. So this is a guy who calls out the media for the way he ruffles a lot of feathers. He also happened to be like the leader of Houston's Black Panther Party. But a lot of times he serves as a like a liaison between black community members and the police. Okay. And so Tim reached out to this guy, Quanell X, and was like, I need to talk to you.

I need your help. I don't know what to do because at this time the case is picking up media attention. Everybody's looking for Tanisha. And so he meets with Quanell X and he tells him, okay, I couldn't find anywhere where Quanell X's name was pronounced, so it's Quanell and the letter X. I don't think it's Quanell 10. I think it's Quanell X. Let's just go with that.

Okay, great. So he reaches out to Quanell X. Quanell comes to his apartment and talks to Tim and he's like, he's like, I'm really scared they're going to give me the death penalty. And he's like, okay, alright. Tell me what going to give me the death penalty. And he's like, okay, all right. Like, tell me, tell me what's going on. Tell me.

And at this point, Tim is very paranoid that, because the police have already been to his apartment. He thinks they've put in listening devices. He invites Quinnell into his apartment initially, like takes him into the bathroom and they start talking. And then he's like, we got to get out of here. We got to get out of here. And so then he gets in Quinnell's car and they drive around for a little bit. And Quenell's like, OK, why don't you just,

why don't you just tell me what you did? And he tells him that he killed Tanisha. Yeah. And he's like, OK, where'd you put her? And Timothy takes him to a dumpster where he says he dumped her body. to a dumpster where he says he dumped her body. And so Quinnell puts Tim in contact with his attorney and is like, let me have you talk to my attorney. And then I think we got to go to the police. Right. I think that's the move here. I think if you're if your biggest concern here is that you're going to get the death

penalty, then like get representation and then let's talk to the police. Sure. And so that's what he did. He talked on over the phone to Quinnell's attorney and then the attorney convinced him to go talk to the police. And so Quinnell did set that up for him. He was like his liaison to the police. And so Timothy contacted the police. He went in.

He sat down with them and he told them he put her body in this dumpster. They went and searched the dumpster, but it had been emptied multiple times by that point. So there was no sign of Tanisha in the dumpster, but they did test the dumpster for blood and it came back positive. Positive for being her blood or just some blood? For just being blood in general. Okay. Well, that- I bet a lot of dumpsters come back positive for blood. Yeah.

So they sit down with Timothy and initially he says – So was his story that he killed her and then chopped her up and then put her remains in this dumpster or – Yeah. That's his initial story okay we'll get there all right okay so he sits down with the police and he's like could not and that'd be just how i could just stop now that'd be great right be great if we had a time machine and we already heard enough undo this. Okay. So he sits down with police and initially he's like, I just want an attorney. I don't want to talk to him.

And he asks specifically for Quannell X's attorney that he's already talked to. Well, the assistant prosecutor, I don't know what her official title was. Kelly Sigler. We know who Kelly Sigler is. She's the one who did the reenact her official title was. Kelly Sigler. We know who Kelly Sigler is. She's the one who did the reenactment in the court. Oh, yeah. With the bed. The blue-eyed butcher.

Yes. Yes, yes, yes. We do remember. So she is there. She's like the prosecutor for this area of Houston. And she's like, uh-uh, you can't have that attorney because that is a conflict of interest because he represents Quan L. And Quan L is acting as the liaison to the police right now. Really?

Come on. Yeah. And so he's like, OK. So they allow him to talk with that attorney briefly. And then they say that that attorney has to leave. And so after he talks to that attorney, he's like, OK, I'm willing to talk. And he gives a full confession. Can they really tell you which attorney? And when he talks to that attorney, he's like, OK, I'm willing to talk. And he gives a full confession.

Can they really tell you which attorney? I don't know. That seems like some bullshit. I agree that it seems like some bullshit. But that is 100 percent what happened here. I believe it happened. Yes. And so he then agrees after speaking briefly to this attorney to give a statement. And he tells the police that he and Tanisha had been at his apartment that night.

They'd been talking about this Mark guy that she was seeing. And they'd gotten in a fight and that Tanisha had grabbed a knife off the table and had lunged at him. Bullshit. And that he'd strangled her out of self-defense. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that he doesn't even really remember doing it because he kind of snapped and had like an out-of-body experience. And the next thing he knew, she was dead.

And then he panicked. And that's the darkest thing. Yeah. And thought no one would believe that story, which is true. Yeah. Because I don't believe that story one bit. Yeah. And knew he had to dispose of her body.

So he told the police that he put her body in like a Rubbermaid tote and dumped it in that dumpster initially is the story that he told the police. Hamster initially is the story that he told the police. Okay. But then later he admitted that he dismembered her and spent hours burning the body parts on the grills and put parts of her down the garbage disposal. Oh, my God. Anyway, it was terrible. It's fucking terrible. So a massive search to recover that Rubbermaid tote was underway. They searched 40,000 tons of garbage at a tub, but the majority of her was burned and put down the garbage disposal. Yeah.

And so that search was called off after just a couple of days. They believe the likelihood of being able to recover any of her body parts was very slim. Yeah, absolutely. This was obviously super upsetting for Tanisha's family. I cannot even imagine. Super upsetting for Tanisha's family. I cannot even imagine. To have none of her – first of all, for her to be murdered and then to be told that we think there's no chance of recovering any of her remains. Yeah.

People around him were that a couple people in the apartment complex had seen him like a couple days after those firefighters initially came to the scene that they saw him carry his grill and his smoker away and he had thrown them in the trash can. And that after his arrest, police had gotten a search warrant for his apartment. And under that search warrant, they had removed his garbage disposal and they'd done like a full search of the bathroom and the drains and all of that. And they had recovered fragments of bone and tooth enamel and they had recovered burned bone fragments. And some of them were located on the ground under his patio where he'd burned and they had like tool marks in them where it was clear that he had dismembered him. The pieces were so badly burned though and so small that it was nearly impossible to get a DNA sample from them. They were so small and so damaged that it was really difficult to even determine if they were human. But when you put it together with all the other stuff, it's pretty clear what they have here. But when you put it together with all the other stuff, it's pretty clear what they have here.

So Timothy Shepard was arrested and charged with Tanisha Stewart's murder. Timothy Shepard went on trial in September of 2008. He was obviously facing life in prison. So the prosecution's case was that he had killed her in his apartment and he'd dismembered her and done horrible things to her remains afterward. They put his neighbor, James Hebert, as it turns out, because I've got the court record right here. Not Herbert. No one thought it was Herbert ever. Yeah. It's always been Herbert.

Certainly not you. Not you. James Hebert was put on the stand and he talked about how he had seen Tanisha Stewart at Tim Shepard's apartment on March 15th and that he hadn't seen her after. And then in the days after last seeing her, he'd seen Timothy grilling around the clock, just barbecuing nonstop. The other people who lived in the same apartment complex were put on the stand and talked about the smell that they'd smelled during those two days. They talked about how the flames had gotten really out of control and everybody was afraid that there was going to be, you know, a fire and that they'd actually called the fire department. One of the responding fire department officers.

I think that's what people say. I think they say firefighters. Anyway. You know what I love is I think they say firefighters. Anyway. You know what I love is my fire department officer calendar. So sexy. Anyway, Robert Logan is his name. It turns out he's a deputy firefighter for the—oh, no, just kidding. What?

I've combined two people. Robert Logan is a volunteer firefighter, and Deputy Russell is a member of the sheriff's department. Okay, so they both testified. Was one sitting on the other's lap? I don't think so. It wasn't like a ventriloquist situation. Did they do like a combo fireman-policeman uniform? I do not think so.

I think I just didn't read my notes very clearly. Oh, damn. I put two people together. So one of the responding firefighters testified and one of the responding officers testified about what they saw that day when they were called out. And they talked about how, yeah, he was barbecuing and, yeah, there was weird meat floating in the bathtub, but it didn't seem that alarming. They'd seen stuff like that before when they'd responded to calls. And so they just thought somebody was, yeah, grilling up a massive amount of meat. A really gross meal.

Yes. Yeah. The prosecution also put a DNA analyst on the stand. Nikki Redmond testified that she had tested some genes that were recovered from Timothy Shepard's apartment and that there was a blood profile on them that was consistent with a mixture of Timothy's blood and Tanisha's blood. Okay, so she didn't specifically say it was 100% Tanisha's blood. The profile was enough that they could not exclude Tanisha as a contributor to the profile that was found. So it was for sure Tim Stewart's blood and then there was another blood mixed in it and they could not exclude Tanisha Stewart from being the owner of that blood that was mixed with it.

OK. I feel like in these cases consistent with does a lot of heavy lifting. It does. You know? Oh, yeah, for sure. For sure. This DNA analyst also testified about those bone fragments and tooth fragments that had been pulled from the garbage disposal.

Again, DNA testing did confirm that these were human and they were able to pull a partial profile from them. And again, Tanisha Stewart could not be eliminated as a contributor to that DNA profile. Okay. And the profile was strong enough that they could eliminate And the profile was strong enough that they could eliminate Tim as a contributor. So didn't match him, was a partial match to Tanisha. The state then put a forensic anthropologist on the stand. Her name was Dr. Jennifer Love. Oh, okay. Love it.

So she was an expert in bone trauma. So she was an anthropologist who spent like years under, like two years working under like this guy, Dr. Steve Sims, who's the most respective anthropologist in tool mark analysis. Most respective? Most respected. Did I say respected? I think you did. Most respected anthropologist in tool mark analysis. So she spent two years working under him and then now she worked as a forensic anthropologist with the Harris County Medical Examiner's Office. And so she talked about those bone fragments that they found with the cut marks in them. Yeah.

And again, she talked about how like this is very indicative of a dismemberment. And while these bone fragments are really small and too difficult to test for DNA, what we can say is that they match the makeup of like a human arm bone. Okay. Okay. Yeah. It is a logical conclusion to say that these are bone fragments from a human arm bone. Yeah. And these tool marks are consistent with dismemberment marks. Mm-hmm.

When it was the defense's turn to present their case, they initially tried to get – and I think they actually did this multiple times throughout this. So the prosecution had played that confession that Tim Shepard had given when he was interrogated where he said, you know, I put her in the dumpster, blah, blah, blah. So the defense tried to get this confession thrown out saying he had asked for an attorney. He had been denied an attorney and he gave the statement anyway. And he had asked for an attorney. He had been denied an attorney and he gave the statement anyway. So the judge looked over this and said, yes, he was given an opportunity to speak to the attorney he asked for. And then he was given an opportunity to then get a different attorney. And he declined that and gave the statement anyway.

And so the judge did not throw out the confession. OK. And so she the judge, the judge did not throw out the confession. And so it became the defense's case that, yes. Tim Shepard had murdered Tanisha Stewart, but he had done so in a fit of passion and as self-defense. Yeah. She had attacked him first and so he strangled her to defend himself from being stabbed by her with the knife that she lunged at him. Yeah, that just doesn't make sense to me. It doesn't make any sense. No, I think it makes no sense at all, especially when you know the history of their relationship yeah no they argued that because it was a crime of passion he should be sentenced to no more than

20 years in prison he was facing a maximum of 99 years in prison following the defense's presentation of their case the jury got the case and they deliberated for a very short time before they found Timothy Shepard guilty of the murder of Tanisha Stewart. Following the guilt phase, they entered a punishment phase. And during the punishment phase, Timothy Shepard testified. He said he walked the jury through the whole thing. He said that he and Tanisha had gotten into an argument over Mark, the guy that she was dating at school, and that he had strangled her to death. And then he said that he panicked and he knew he had to cover it up because no one would believe that he had, number one, done it in self-defense. Yeah, because you didn't. It's not true. And so he told the jury that after he strangled her,

he went to a hardware store and bought a jigsaw and then put her in the bathtub and went to work dismembering her body. He was really worried that she would be identified by dental records because there's only so much you can do with larger parts of the body. And so he pulled out her teeth with pliers and put them down at garbage disposal. Oh, my God. Yeah. Yeah, see, to me, this is all indicative of someone who absolutely was not taken away in a crime of passion.

No. So yeah, the parts that he couldn't burn or put down the garbage disposal, he had put in a large rubber tote. He'd slid those down the stairs at the apartment complex and put them in a dumpster at a neighboring apartment complex. apartment complex. And then he burned Tanisha's clothes and any other evidence and he'd cleaned up the bathroom as well as he could. When they executed that search warrant on his apartment, they were able to find trace

amounts of blood in the bathroom. But yeah, during the penalty phase, the defense, again, argued that this was a crime of passion and he should be sentenced to no more than 20 years in prison. His family members testified that he had many gifts that the world would be missing out on if he was sent to prison for the rest of his life. And the prosecutor was able to cross-examine them and they were like, what about Tanisha? What about her many gifts? Specifically, they were questioning – I believe it was his father when he said, you know, Tim has lots of gifts that the world will be missing out on. And so the prosecutor was like, what about Tanisha's gifts? The world is missing out on her gifts.

And he was like, yes, it is. And the prosecutor said, because your son ended her life. Yeah. Right? And he said, that's right. Yeah. I know. Ultimately, Timothy Stewart was sentenced to 99 years in prison and given a $10,000 fine.

I don't know what the fine is for. And that's a weird detail, but every article mentions it. So here I am also mentioning it. Following Tanisha's murder, Gail Shields, Tanisha's mom, talked to a group of parents and teenagers at her daughter's old high school. So this was actually before Timothy was tried, but after he was arrested and they basically knew what happened. Yeah. And that talk centered around recognizing the signs of abuse. And she encouraged parents to ask more questions about their children's relationships. She said, don't respect their privacy. She's like, that's what I thought that I was doing the right thing.

And I wish I would have asked more questions. She also encouraged those in abusive situations to not be afraid to ask for help. At that talk, Gail said, for some reason, I know Tanisha is smiling down on this forum today because her death would not be in vain. I feel like this is going to help someone. in vain. I feel like this is going to help someone. I hope so. Mm-hmm. And that's the horrible story of the murder of Tanisha

Stewart. You realize you chose that. I know. It was terrible. Yeah, that was rough. Mm-hmm. I am leaving you to get more coffee. Please do. I'll sit here and think about what I've done.

Yeah, please. Okay. I'm very sorry about that, Kate. As you should be. My God, that was so sad. It was so sad. She was really young and... Yeah, she was only 19 at the time of her murder.

Did he have a history of violence against women or do you know? I don't know. I mean he had a history of being violent with Tanisha so. Yeah. Alright so moving on to my case. Excellent.

Okay thank you to Say It and Will Cut It in the Discord for suggesting this case. Excellent. Okay, thank you to Say It and Will Cut It in the Discord for suggesting this case. Wonderful. Shoutiest of shoutouts to the documentary Brothers of the Blacklist. This mostly comes from that documentary. Okay, Brandy. Picture it.

Oneonta, New York. Oneonta is super cute. It's known as the city of the hills. They got a lot of hills there? It would be false advertising if they didn't. And I would demand my money back. Yes. It has an adorable little downtown and a population of, like, 13,000 people.

And, you know, it's not the most diverse place, okay? And by that I mean it's really not diverse, but they're working on it, Brandy. Okay. Oneonta is home to the State University of New York College at Oneonta, or as the cool kids call it, SUNY at Oneonta. Oh. What? I'm obviously not a cool kid.

You ever watch Law and Order? Not a lot. Well, boy. Dun, dun. Okay. Edward Whaley, who goes by Bo, said that when he attended – How did he get there? I didn't ask the man. He just told me personally that he goes by Bo.

You think that's like a middle name situation? His name's Edward Beauregard. Whaley. I mean, maybe. What's his last name? Whaley. Whaley. Sorry.

I mean, if people who are named Margaret are going by Peggy, then Bo can do whatever the fuck he wants. Right? Yeah, that's true. do whatever the fuck he wants. Right? Yeah, that's true. He said that when he attended SUNY at Oneonta in the 70s, there were only a few black families living in town. But by the 90s, things were changing.

By that point, Beau was working as a counselor at the college, and there was this big statewide effort to make all of the SUNY campuses more diverse. So counselors like Beau and admissions counselors like Cheryl Champin made it a point to encourage students of color to apply. And, you know, they were happy to do it. Beau is a black man who'd had a good experience at Oneonta, and he told his students that they could come to Oneonta and just focus on learning

and bettering themselves, you know, blah, blah, blah, higher education. Which is part of the brochure. Cheryl is a black woman and I don't know that she attended the school, but she'd been living in the city for 14 years. So I would guess she had. And she seems to have felt the same way. She talked to prospective students and their parents and told them that SUNY Oneonta was a great place to get an education.

She even convinced her brother to enroll. All this is to say that by 1992, there were more than 200 Black students enrolled at the university. Diversity accomplished. Brandy, do you know the fun thing about white people deciding that a place needs to be more diverse? What? You can just add in people of color to your college or town or workplace and not change any of the systemic racism in your college or town or workplace and everything turns out fine. I don't think that's how that works.

No, you just add in. Yeah, because young people of color become like the guinea pigs and the white people don't have to do any extra work at all. Great. Yeah. The look on your face. Yeah, that sounds terrible. Things were uneventful in the town until the evening of September 4th, 1992.

It was about two in the morning, and an elderly white woman was attacked in her home. It was dark, of course, and she wasn't wearing her glasses, and she could see that the burglar had a knife. He told her, do as I say, do as I say. He kept repeating that. He told her to turn over. She later said that at that point she felt like she had nothing to lose, so she lurched, and the man fell, and she saw his forearm and it was dark skinned. At that point, the burglar ran. What?

Okay. Everyone, Brandy's making a face. That's my skeptical face. At that point, the burglar ran out her back door and into the woods. She said, it happened too fast for me to be terrified. I was furious. I was angry. I was violated.

She hid in her room for more than four hours before she called the police. But the police showed up, and, I mean, you can't really envy them. How are they supposed to catch this guy? All they knew was that the victim said he was a black male. Interestingly, and this wasn't in her statement, but officers later claimed that she also told them that the attacker was young and that during their struggle, he'd cut his own hand. Okay. Okay. I thought she only could see that his forearm was a dark. How could she know that he was young?

Well, that's... We could be making that up completely. Oh, no, those are the good guys. All the time, in every story I've ever told. Doodah, doodah. All right. So, they were looking for a young black male with a cut on his hand. Still not a ton to go on, so they called in the canine unit. And sure enough, that good dog tracked the attacker's scent.

Sure enough, that good dog tracked the attacker's scent. The dog's handler's statement indicated that the dog tracked the attacker's scent down one road and then south on East Street, away from the college campus. That's very confusing. South on East Street. I agree. Thank you, Brandy. Ready for more confusing stuff? Okay, so the dog said, well, he didn't say because he was so tough. And they were like, holy shit, this dog talks.

The dog indicated that the attacker went away from the school. But the police are going to indicate that this was a young black student at SUNY. Have you heard this story before? No. Just picking up on a vibe. Yeah, so the police would later say that the dog tracked

the suspect's trail all the way to the campus. Oh, okay. That's weird because that's not what the dog just told us. And how could it be more clear? That's right. When the dog told us told us in plain english with a british accent no less i mean we got to respect that i always joke that oliver speaks with a british accent because oh

oliver definitely does. Yes. What accents do you think Dottie and Kit have? Oh, hmm. That is a good question. Nothing nearly that sophisticated, I guarantee you. So, yeah, as you've already said, the police made their way to the campus. They talked to campus security, who called up administrators, and after hearing everything about how they were looking for a young black male in connection with a crime, Leif Hartmark, who was the school's vice president of finance and administration,

provided the police with a list. Of all the black male students? Yeah. Why does that exist? Plus their addresses. What? Mm-hmm. Yeah, he provided them a list of every single black male student who attended the college.

There were 125 names on that list. And so the police began questioning every single black male student at SUNY Oneonta. It was a strange and upsetting experience for the students. They were just going about their day as students. Hopedon Gordon about their day as students. Hopedon Gordon said that that Saturday morning he heard someone knock on his door. Hopedon Gordon? Hopedon Gordon. That is a wonderful name.

I mean, yeah. All right. Continue on. Okay. Let's hear about him being harassed by the police. Yeah. Pause. Pause for a compliment. On to the horrible stuff. Okay. Let's hear about him being harassed by the police. Yeah. Pause. Pause for a compliment.

Onto the horrible stuff. So they knocked on the door. He said, who is it? And they said, campus security. So he opens the door, and right away they asked him to show his hands. And he's like, show my hands for what? And they said, we're investigating a crime. Hopeton was told what all the young black men were told.

Show us your hands, give us your alibi, answer a few questions. Or if you don't want to do that, we'll just take you down to the police station. Great. Yeah, so Hopeton, of course, showed them his hands. He didn't want trouble with the police. A freshman named Ricky Brown had a similarly disorienting experience. He saw a parked police car, and I think he was walking. So as soon as he passed it, the car sped up, stopped him, and the officer asked for some ID.

And Ricky gave him his student ID and the officer like scratched at it and bent it and flipped it over and didn't really say anything. They just kind of stood around for a while and then asked to see Ricky's hands. So Ricky was annoyed, but he complied. Again, he didn't have a whole lot of choice. This next one kills me. Another freshman named Rayshon Morris was like sort of just getting used to college life, not even really just getting used to it, like just like dipping his toe into it. He'd only been in the dorm for like a week. And he said that that whole week he'd just been kind of secluded because he was not used to the college environment yet, not comfortable at all. He mostly just stayed in his room. But finally one night he was like, you know what?

I need to break the ice. I need to meet some people. I need to try to make some friends. So he went to, you know, whatever, the dorm next door or whatever. And he went into a room full of people he'd never met and started talking. And, you know, he's the only black guy in the room. And all of a sudden there was a knock at the door. It was the police and they asked for Rayshon Morris.

And it freaked Rayshon out. This was like the one time he'd left his room and he was in someone else's dorm. How did he even know he was in there? No kidding. So, you know, he goes out. They ask him to show his hand. So he's like, OK. And he remembers very vividly that if he didn't comply, they would take him down to the station.

He's like, OK, well, that's the last thing I want. No kidding. So he showed his hands and the officers left. And all the people in the dorm room, when he came back in, were like, what was that about? And he's like, I have no clue. Can you imagine you're trying to meet new people? No. The police kept working their way through this list. At some point, they figured out that there were some black guys on the soccer team and the soccer team was playing a game in Pennsylvania.

So they called the soccer coach and they were like, hey, hey, do us a favor. There's been a crime. Please check all of your black players hands for cuts. And the soccer coach was like, no, no. I'm absolutely not doing that. And the state police told him, OK, if you don't do it, then we'll do it to all of them when you guys get back. So the coach went to the players and warned them that this would happen when they got back. And sure enough, it did. One student talked about calling his parents on a pay phone and a plainclothes officer stopped him and asked to show his hands. And he did.

And afterward, the student started walking the five blocks back to his dorm and another cop stopped him. Oh, my gosh. Because that's the fun thing about racial profiling. Yeah. You don't get to say, oh, already happened to me today. Right. So all the students who were stopped in question complied with the officers. And that was largely due to fear.

They were afraid of what would happen if they didn't comply. One student said, if a cop comes up to you and you don't cooperate with him, the end result could be that you're dead. So, like, yeah, we're going to cooperate. Another student said, if I would have reacted like, no, I'm not showing you my hands, I'm out of here, and I just started to leave, they'd have grabbed me

and I'd say, get off me, and I'd ran out of pure fear. What would have happened? Two bullets in the back. Yeah. Fun fact. The police still hadn't caught the burglar. At some point, they started calling this person Fun fact. The police still hadn't caught the burglar. Mm-hmm.

At some point, they started calling this person an attempted rapist. Okay. Yeah. So they decided to take their investigation up a notch. Bam! Like Emeril. Oh, my God. I keep snotting every time you make me laugh.

And I worry that you are absolutely going to throw up. That's a real risk. I know. Yeah. The police decided. Well, actually, what do you think kicking it up means in this case? I don't know. Picking one individual and trying to frame them.

Like which guy on the list do we like the least? Yeah. I mean that's the eventual plan, right? Right. No, the police decided to do a citywide sweep of all of Oneonta's black male residents. OK. I hate this. sweep of all of Oneonta's black male residents. Okay. I hate this. A police officer later told reporters that the purpose of the sweep was, quote, to examine

the hands of all the black people in the community. Great. And that's how the admissions counselor Cheryl Champin got stopped. She was getting on a bus to visit her grandma. And an officer came up to her and asked for identification. And the officer explained that a black male had attempted to burglarize someone earlier that day. And Cheryl was like, OK, well, I'm not a black man. Cheryl is very pretty, by the way.

And she was interviewed for 60 Minutes. And she said, even on my worst hair day, I don't look like a man. So she refused to show her ID. But the officer was insistent. And it was clear that this was not going to end quickly. So finally, she complied. She showed him her ID. He asked to see her wrists.

She's like, OK, fine. And when she got on the bus, people stared at her like she was a fucking criminal and she was humiliated. Yeah. Over the course of three days, police interviewed more than 300 black men. Eighty of those black men were students. And of course, some of those black men were students. And of course, some of them were stopped multiple times.

Some of them weren't even men. Cheryl's brother was stopped three times. Wow. It was humiliating and scary. Cheryl said that at a certain point, it felt like the police weren't even trying to figure out who committed the crime. This was just an opportunity

to harass black people. Yeah. Hoping they'd pack up and leave. Yeah. Yeah, because what is this? Okay. No, go ahead. I mean, this is just not standard operating procedure for any crime.

Right. You've got so little to any crime. Right. You've got so little to go on. Yes. This is not what you do. Yeah. I can't even understand how they thought this was okay. Mm-hmm. Ugh.

So if they were trying to harass black people and— They were successful. Well, yeah. And if they wanted them to leave town, I mean, that was successful, too. A lot of the students were like, no, I'm gone. Yeah. I mean, some of these students had been there for like a week. Beau, the counselor at SUNY, said that when he came into work the morning following Labor Day weekend, there were three students there waiting for him.

They wanted to tell him that they were dropping out. So Bo got a little caught up to speed on what was going on. Like, he didn't know the full scope. But he was like, OK, OK, hang on a second. Let's go down and talk to John Edmondson. He was the director of campus security. So the four went down to John's office and Bo said, John, what's going on? And Bo said in this documentary, and I swear to God, John'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to. Like Jackie Gleason.

And Bo, who's, I mean, Bo is like the amazing hero of the documentary. He just said, oh, wow. John, stop. You got to call somebody. Yeah. You got to call somebody. Who do you call? A lawyer, maybe?

I don't know. Yeah, I don't even know. Your minister? You know, who do you need to, what do you need to do at this point? But Bo was like, okay, you know, you've done something horrible. So he got the three students and left. As the day progressed, more of these stories came out, and it became clear that the police had been given a list of all the black males on campus. And this was a huge violation.

Yes! I'm not disagreeing, Brandy. How did that even happen in the fucking first place? How do you think it happened? Fucking white people. Yeah. Yeah, we'll get to more of that. Okay, tell us more. Beau got a call from Leif Hartmark, vice president of finance and administration, and he wanted to set up a

meeting to discuss what had happened. Bo asked the president of the college, Alan Donovan, if he was going to attend the meeting. And he said, no, this is Hartmark's baby. So the president of the university is not going to be there? Oh, he could be bothered. No, no. Oh, OK. Well, this is a really big deal. No Oh, he could be bothered. No, no. Oh, OK. Well, this is a really big deal. No. It's happening at your university.

So you should probably fucking be there. No, this didn't rise to the level of a college president. It 100 percent does. Also, let's talk about why this list, number one, exists. Why this, number two, why this list was given to the police. Just like handing over. Just trying to be helpful. No. Just trying to be a good guy.

There was a crime. Other students might have been at risk, Brandy. Yeah, I mean they were at risk of being harassed by the police. Yeah. So they had this meeting, and Bo was there, and Leaf was there, and so were some other faculty and staff and a bunch of the students who'd been on the list. And Leaf admitted that he'd given the police a list with all of the black men's names on it. And he was a little defensive about it. Oh, was he?

And, of course, people were upset with him. Yeah, you think? And Bo whistled to get everyone quieted down and Leaf said, hey, hey, we're not here to point fingers at anybody. And this professor named Ralph Watkins got out of his chair and he said, we're pointing our fingers at you. You did this. Yeah. But what did Leaf say to that? He probably pooped himself.

I don't know. They moved on to another. Make like a tree and Leaf. Here's the thing, Brandy. Taking accountability sucks. So Leaf just wasn't super interested. OK. And the school president, Alan Donovan, was interviewed by the media and he was basically like, well, yeah, when Leaf did that, he was in violation of the Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act.

But, you know, he probably didn't know he was violating it. He probably should know that that's a violation. It's probably a big part of his job. Yeah. So there – even I know this dumb shit. There are certain things that you can give out as a school and it's like a person's name. I think it's like whether they currently attend.

I mean it's very limited information. Their race and their address, I don't think, is it. I wouldn't guess those are, yeah, on the list of things that are okay. Word got out about what had happened to so many black people in Oneonta, and the police were proud. What they'd done was good police work. No, it's not. They were very proud, Brandy.

Okay, well, they're fucking wrong. Worth noting, this investigation was done by the state police. The city police chief was interviewed and he was like, I would have never done that. That's nuts. That's not how you investigate a crime. No. No. You are humiliating and alienating a group within your community. Yeah.

How do you not see how that's clearly going to do more harm than good? do more harm than good. So there was this indifference on the part of the administration and the students were pissed. Students of all races banded together to protest the school's participation in racial profiling. They held these big, well-attended rallies. They held signs that read, protect civil rights for all. Justice, not just us. Heartmark missed the mark. You ready for my personal favorite? Yes. It's not a black thing.

It's not a white thing. It's a human thing. And you will understand. That's too much on a sign, Kristen. That's so many words. It's too many words. You should have seen how small they had to write that. That's too many words on the sign.

I mean, you got a real winner here. Justice, not just us. And then you've got, it's not a black thing. It's not a white thing. It's a human thing. And you will understand. My God. That's too much much how big was that not that big we've got another appearance here by rayshon morris he's the guy who had just wanted to go

socialize yeah well he went to the rally and ironically he made a lot of friends at the rally okay and you know he said this was a terrible, but he did make a lot of good friends through it. Well, good, Raishan. I'm very happy for you. At one of these rallies, a speaker invited the college president to come address the students, and, you know, they applauded for him. They were polite. Did he actually come this time? He did make an appearance.

Are you ready for what he said to the students? No, I'm probably not. Prepare to be inspired, you douche. I don't think I will be. Here's what he said. I don't have anything prepared. I'm sorry. I'm primarily being here to listen to your concerns. I will not give you any answers at this point.

Obviously, we have a serious problem. I am inspired. To sit there and do nothing. To kick this guy right in the butthole. People started yelling out, what are you going to do? Yeah, fucking do something. And he said, I'm going to talk and I'm going to listen.

Okay. And I'm going to breathe. And I'm going to... That includes inhaling and exhaling both. And I plan to do them about the same amount. Someone from the crowd yelled,

take some action. You have power. Yeah. And Alan just walked away from the microphone. Oh my gosh. Heroic. No. I guess he was going to do some more listening. Okay.

How is this your response? Yeah. One of your VPs does something this egregious. Yeah. And your response is like, I'm basically too important to attend any of these meetings with the students. Yeah. He goes to a rally. He's unprepared to speak to anybody about this issue.

What a fucking dumbass. Anyway. At one point, some of the students from the blacklist tried to meet with Leaf to talk to him. They went and knocked on his office door. And he just didn't come out nobody's here leaf made like a tree the guy i mean he's you know long graduated now but he he like went and like kind of reenacted and he was like it was the weirdest thing.

Like we were knocking, trying to talk to him and he just wouldn't come to the door. And he was like, you know, this guy put my name on a list. He allowed the police to come harass me. Yeah. He couldn't just sit down and talk with me. Yeah. I think Leif was real busy that day. One of the things that people kept mentioning in the documentary was that what Leaf Hartmark

did was part of a larger systemic problem. You know, this wasn't all on him. Yeah. They also said that if he just apologized, this probably would have gone away. But he didn't. Great. Just took no responsibility for what he'd done. Well, not exactly.

So the closest he came was he sent a letter to all the 125 students on the blacklist. And it was like – it was referred to as an apology letter. But when the students read it, it's like – it was referred to as an apology letter. But when the students read it, it's like – It was really hard to find the apology. They basically said, you know, it kind of felt like it had been drafted by a lawyer and it seemed like it had been written so that he could avoid admitting wrongdoing. Yeah. So I've got part of the letter.

OK. Do you want to hear? Yeah. OK. So here've got part of the letter. Okay. Do you want to hear? Yeah. Okay. So here's what part of it said. You were one of the black male students identified on the list. While this request for information was received and processed by two separate college offices, the authorization to release this information to the state police was given by me. As I stated publicly on Wednesday, I soon realized that releasing this information was a mistake. I can honestly say that I did not know at the time that the information would be used as it was, and I did not fully think through the possible

ramifications of this decision. I regret that lapse in judgment, and I can assure you that this will not happen again. I realize that this investigation by outside law enforcement agencies has caused a great deal of embarrassment, anxiety, and outrage for many of the students involved. I sincerely regret this affront to your personal dignity and any pain or disruption this may have caused you or your family. As far as shitty apologies goes, I don't think it's the worst. It's not. It's not great. Well, and I think also timing is so key. When this comes this late.

Yeah, no kidding. Yeah, if you would have said these things publicly like immediately after or like say when someone came to your office and also i would think what what happened here was so big for each of these students would it have killed you to meet with them individually if they if they want yeah and apologize sincerely there or maybe like work on yourself a little. Anyway, this was now a major news story. And so after a week of rallies, President Alan Donovan decided that Leaf's punishment

would be one month's suspension without pay, and he'd be demoted to director of finance and administration, which sounds so embarrassing. Yeah. Safety director John Edmondson retired. But the students wanted to be assured that this couldn't happen again, so they banded together. They formed a group called the Brothers of the Blacklist, and they looked themselves in the mirror, and they said, let's go to court.

On October 2nd, 1992, they had their first meeting. They asked the New York Civil Liberties Union to investigate what happened to them. Attorney Scott Fine agreed to work for the students pro bono. Initially, their goal was pretty straightforward. They wanted Scott to speak to the state police and the governor's office about this not happening again. So Scott did that. He said that the governor's office was extraordinarily empathetic. They seemed to totally get it.

The state police, not so much. They hadn't done anything wrong. Here's a genuine douchey quote from the police. They didn't see anything wrong with what they did? No. Okay, great. Truly, truly not one bit. Wow.

You ready for the quote? No. Short of the insensitivity that's being perceived on the part of the students. Fuck off! I don't feel that our investigative avenues were in violation of anybody's constitutional rights. They sure fucking were. Yet you went after these kids because of their race. Yeah.

Yeah. By the way, shortly after all this news came out, the Aryan Brotherhood came to town and began harassing black students. And if you're wondering if the state police were like, oh, no, the Aryan Brotherhood is on our side. Does this mean we're on the wrong side? No, they don't appear to have thought about that at all. Okay.

That's neat. Yeah. On February what? I don't even know. This is terrible. They can't. Okay. All right.

They can't what? Just acknowledge that they, that, yeah, they made a mistake. This is not the way you investigate a crime ever. Again, they were proud of the police work they'd done. Well, that's a fucking problem. Sure is. On February 2nd, 1993, this lawsuit became official. The brothers of the Blacklist, along with some other people who were questioned by the police,

joined together in a lawsuit against state and local officials and the school. They said that the university and the police had violated their Fourth Amendment rights and they'd violated the Equal Protection Clause of the Constitution, plus a shit ton of other stuff, including basic human decency. They didn't say that part. I said it now. At a press conference, Attorney Scott Fine announced that the students were seeking a tuition waiver, not for the students themselves, but so that each student could designate someone from

their home community who, if they met admission requirements, could attend a state university in New York for free. He told the crowd, you might say, what an odd request, but there's a reason for it. This is the collective judgment of the students. That is, this has to be remembered. There has to be a legacy. This can't happen again and shouldn't have in 1992. But the judge in the case was a real wet blanket and was like, yeah, you can't sue for future scholarships. So that didn't happen.

OK. But OK. Couldn't you sue for – like you determine the monetary equivalent of that and that goes into a fund that then funds the – it seems like there would be a way to do that. That's what drives me nuts about this is like I think if you're the state and that's what they're asking for – Yeah, you're like, OK, great, wonderful. Let's wrap this up and sure thing here we're here's the here's the foundation that we've established here it's now fully funded for you know i feel like that'd be a really easy thing to

yeah i mean it would cost something but probably not as much as a lawsuit's gonna cost you yeah and also if you're truly sorry for what you did which you should be, then what a great way to try to make it right. Yeah. Unless you don't actually want to make it right. Right. Right. That is the thing.

Uh-huh. At this point, we must hit pause because I need to tell you that this case became the longest continually litigated civil rights case in the history of America. Yes. Oh, I bet that's boring. It goes on and on and on. This was argued at the federal level, at the state level. And so I must remind you that time is a construct, Brandy.

And I will be using my fast-forward button quite frequently. Because Mama's got 14 years to blow through. 14 years? Yes. You're fucking kidding me. 14 fucking years. They could have given people a bunch of scholarships. But no, they did this for 14 years.

Assholes. but no they did this for 14 years assholes had to be way cheaper to just do the fort the 125 scholarships or whatever right and maybe you can feel better about yourself exactly like all right something terrible happened here and we're making something good out of it yeah and 125 students will now get to get to go to college for free. And maybe they wouldn't have been able to do that before. Yeah. Holy shit. But no, we're just going to fucking dig our heels in and fight this for 14 years?

Mm-hmm. I can't even tell you how much that might cost. Seems like a lot. Oh, it is. In December of 1993, the district court dismissed the plaintiff's equal protection claim and their protection. Protection claim. So few people take the time to talk about a protection claim. And I'm not really going to go into it because we all know what it means.

And I'm not really going to go into it because we all know what it means. The court basically said that the Equal Protection Clause essentially says that all people in a similar situation need to be treated alike. And the court dismissed the claim because the plaintiffs had failed to allege that a similarly situated class of non-minorities had been treated differently from them in the past. Right, because there's no history of racism in the United States. The students didn't give up. They appealed this decision, and the Court of Appeals upheld the lower court's decision and took it a little further. Because what's the point of being half a douche? They said that racial profiling was essentially totally fine as long as it was efficient. They wrote that it could have a disparate impact on small minority groups, but meh. They also wrote that in a, quote, primarily black community with very few white residents

and the search were for a young white male, the impact would be reversed. So there you go. You know, that could happen. No. Equal stuff. Okay. This was and probably still is a pretty popular opinion amongst white people. One guy, white as the driven snow,

and who had the most nasally voice you've ever heard in your life, was interviewed for 60 Minutes. And here's what he said. I was brought up in the suburbs and I see a policeman as somebody that's always been helpful to be, somebody that I can rely on. How are your civil rights violated by cooperating in a police investigation and answering a few questions? If you didn't commit the crime, you don't have anything to worry about. You know, I wouldn't consider my rights violated if they came to me and got a list of white people that asked me. Thoughts? Comments? Concerns? thoughts comments um concerns okay well you've just defined white privilege uh-huh that you've never had to be afraid of the police yeah because of the color of your skin yeah yeah i think Yeah, I think this is the problem when so many of the administrators are for, you know, a tall white person, I wouldn't be offended.

Well, that's never going to happen to you. And you have a lifelong history of only pleasant experiences with the cops. So you really have no idea what you're talking about. Yeah. That guy's single. Shocking. I was just guessing. Oh.

The court also said that for there to be a claim of an equal protection violation, the plaintiffs needed to show that they were intentionally discriminated against. And the evidence didn't show intentional discrimination. The police were just going on what the victim told them, that she'd been attacked by a black male. What were they supposed to do? Not treat every black male like a criminal? Yes. Well, okay, maybe, but the court also said that it was not their job

to determine whether the police had acted appropriately. It was not their job to determine whether the police had acted appropriately. It was just their job to determine whether they'd violated the law. So don't be mad at them, Brandy. OK. I have a real issue with that intentional discrimination thing. Uh-huh. Because I think most discrimination isn't intentional. Yeah, you're probably right.

Like, that Leaf guy, I bet you he didn't think, oh, I'm going to do something super racist right now. And it's going to have a terrible impact on these students. They're going to be afraid for their lives.

Yeah. But it was still racist. Absolutely. But it was still racist. Absolutely. The effect was still racist. And I think that's such a problem. Like if we're living in this racist ass society, then we don't need to worry about intentions. Yeah.

It just is racist. Yeah. Anyway, after the verdict, Eliot Spitzer said, you know what? Yeah. It just is racist. Yeah. Anyway. After the verdict, Elliot Spitzer said, you know what? We won the case, but it makes your skin crawl. Great. Wow. What are you thinking?

I don't know. A lot of thoughts about Eliot Spitzer. Once again, the students kept moving forward. And even though they'd suffered a lot of defeats. Which one's Eliot Spitzer? Isn't he the hooker guy? Yeah, right? I think I'm, you know what?

I think I'm mixing him up with Anthony Weiner or Carlos Danger. He's not the dong outline guy? No, that's Anthony Weiner. Oh, dear. How dare you. Elliot Switzer is, he is the, the,

He did the high-end call gals. Right? Yeah. Right? Let's see. Prostitution scandal. Mm-hmm.

Uh-huh. Patronized a high-priced escort service called Emperor's Club VIP. That's too many things. I think you should just be Emperor's Club because when you add on the VIP, it sounds like you're trying to, you know, make it something it's not. What do you think it's not? Well, it's like if I – If everybody who comes there is a VIP, it's not who comes there. I shouldn't have said that.

Well, they better come there. They're paying for it. You're right. It's like if I said you look super fancy and beautiful and blah, blah, blah, blah, don't you think at a certain point you'd be like you're adding on too much? Yeah, you're right. Why is your face – I'm trying to figure out who his wife is.

Is he the one with the hot wife? They all have hot wives. And the hot wives have to stand at that fucking press conference and be like, oh, I support my husband. Yeah. This isn't humiliating. She's not – she is hot, but she's not the one I was thinking of. Who were you thinking?

She's very beautiful. You were thinking of Anthony Weiner you thinking? She's very beautiful. You were thinking of Anthony Weiner's wife. She's incredibly beautiful. Yeah, she is. Her hair, I would kill for her hair. Her hair is amazing. Yeah. Okay, sorry.

I didn't mean to take us on a tangent here with Elliot Spitzer. Yeah. You thinking about Elliot Spitzer's dong right now? No, I know nothing about his dong, but I can tell you a lot about the outline of Anthony Weiner's dong. Anthony's Weiner. Look at you.

See, I still love that he went by Carlos Danger. Carlos Danger! Which is less overtly sexual than his actual name. Exactly! You just put a little posh BS in there and you got yourself

a really nice name. Mm-hmm. If you were going to create a high-end prostitution ring, what would you call it? Oh, you got one. What is it? No, it's stupid. I was trying to do like a play on booty, like bootiful.

Uh-huh. That is really stupid. Yeah, what do you got? Hmm. Okay. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-huh. But then I don't really know what I'm going for there. That is really stupid. Yeah, what do you got? Hmm. Okay. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

I'm sorry. I came up with an idea, but then I realized I think it's an actual thing. Uh-huh. The Emerald Club. I think it sounds classy, but isn't that like an airline's, like you... Oh, probably. Yeah. Anyway.

I would like to be the first class lounge. You show up to the Emerald Club thinking you'll have a cocktail and maybe some pretzels. In reality. Just tits everywhere. Tits everywhere. Why does that work the other way? What if you showed up to the first class lounge at the airport and you walk in and there's tits everywhere?

I think people would be thrilled. I would be thrilled. Yeah. They'd be like, they really kicked this up a notch. Like, Emeril, bam! Oh, my God. What would you do if you met Emeril? I would...

You'd die. I would. It would just be if you met Emeril? I would. You'd die. I would. It would just be the end. My life's peaked. What if you walked into a room, Emeril's there, with pretzels he just made surrounded by titties? My soul would leave my body. Could they be like soft pretzels? Like soft pretzels?

I thought you were talking about the titties. Yeah, of course they're soft. He didn't. It's not like the rolled gold or. Snyder's of Hanover. Yeah, no, none of that shit. Pretzel time pretzels with the cheese sauce. of that shit. Yeah. The sauce. Pretzel time. Pretzels with the cheese sauce. With all the sauces.

Yeah. Even though we all know you'd only want the cheese sauce, but you know. I like a little mustard here and there. But I don't want it to be a grainy mustard. Oh my God. I don't like the texture. If Emerald Hand made it for you. Here's that Emerald, made it. His name's not

Emerald. That's the name of your titty club. Emerald's Emerald Club. That's the name

of my high end club. All right. We got to get Emerald on the phone. Emerald, you don't have to do any work.

It's gonna be just like Guy Fieri's restaurant in time. It's gonna sell itself! Just have to lend us your face. We're gonna give you some rolled gold. And you just have to say you made these. Anyway. Well, how did we get here? Oh, Elliot Spitzer. That was my fault. I brought

him up. Right. So at this point in time, public opinion was starting to go against racial profiling. People were like, I don't know about this. Seems like it sucks. Like we shouldn't do racial profiling? Right. Yes. Okay, great.

What year is it? Well, wait for it. Wait for it. The Justice Department under George W. Bush had already taken a public stand against racial profiling. Can you believe that shit? Wow. It looked like the practice was on the verge of being outlawed, Brandy. So, the students appealed all the way to the United States.

Supreme Court! This was the time. This was their chance. America was listening. Racial profiling is wrong! Uh-oh. Did I mention that this case went up for consideration 10 days after 9-11? Oh, yikes. As you may recall, after 9-11, racial profiling had a moment. Yeah, people hated brown people.

Great. And, like, everybody was just fine with that. Yep, civil rights were out of style. For some people, anyway, white people always look Yep. Civil rights. We're out of style. For some people anyway. White people always look great in civil rights. Any hooters. The Supreme Court declined to hear the case. I don't think anybody says any hooters. I do.

At the Emerald Club. Anytime we want to change the subject. Any hooters. You know. On to the next thing. New tits appear. That would be great! We gotta write

these things down! We are recording it. What if you were to see a new dong? What would that be? Hmm. Ding-a-ling-dong! And then you kind of like wave goodbye to the fella. No, maybe you say like, ring-a-ding-dong!

Oh, yeah. In pops. In pops a new dong. Yeah. So at the Emerald Club, you're getting both titties and dongs, huh? Yeah. Oh, okay. Why wouldn't you?

I don't know that that's offered a lot Yeah. Oh, okay. Why wouldn't you? I don't know. That's offered a lot of places currently, so. Do you think my Emerald Club would go out of business because that's just not a thing people want? In general, I think people enjoy looking at tits more than they enjoy looking at dongs. Yeah, I mean, you could probably just go to your local library and see some guy with his dong out. So maybe we don't need that at the end of the club. We might not. You know what we'll do?

We'll start with titties and see what the demand is like. We could do like a Wednesday dong night and see. And it's just a bunch of guys who are there that want to show their dongs. Nobody wants to look. That's not what this is, sir. And it's just a bunch of guys who are there that want to show their dongs. Nobody wants to let this in, sir. I'm so glad. You know, it's unbelievable to me just being part of this conversation, knowing that we have a successful business together. What would be the location for the Emerald Club?

I realize I'm thinking about it in an airport. I'm so sorry. Yeah. Maybe we can make it airport themed, but it doesn't have to actually be in an airport because nobody likes to go to the airport. So why would you want a theme with the airport? Because it fits the – I'm thinking.

I like the idea of it being themed in like – I don't know. Like the dudes are dressed up like pilots. And the air is circulated. I know. And everyone's in a really small chair. The seats are tiny with no leg room. Try getting the lap dates in that thing. The bathrooms are disgusting.

And you'll ask for a Coke and I'll give you half of one. Right. In my fantasy, I am working behind the bar. Okay, great. Because you're a manager who, like, you're an owner who's willing to get her hands dirty, right? Absolutely. Yeah. And I want to be the one to yell, any hooters.

You think I'm going to give that power to someone else? You're wrong. Maybe Emeril. Bam. Anyway, should we get back to this? Okay, where the hell were we? Oh, yes. Any Hooters, the Supreme Court declined to hear the case.

Great. Wonderful. Ding-a-ling-dong. Ding-a-ling-dong. They were done. Mm-hmm. That was beautiful. Yes.

So let's go back to state court and slide back through time a little bit. In the mid-'90s, a New York court ruled that you could sue for monetary damages if your civil liberties were violated. So about four years after this whole thing started, the students won the right to sue the state. You know what I think? What? I think this episode, we started out so heavy that we had to take a break. I think so. And brainstorm.

Yeah. All right. Absolutely. It was necessary. It needed to happen. It did. It was bound to happen. Yes.

Fun fact. By this point, all the brothers of the blacklist had graduated. And once that happened, President Donovan reinstated Leif Hartmark as the VP of Finance and Administration. So I'm sure he really learned his lesson. I have reason to believe he absolutely did. Yeah. So don't worry. He landed on his lesson. I have reason to believe he absolutely did. Yeah. So don't worry. He landed on his feet.

That wasn't the case for all of the students who'd been on that list, though. Yeah. Some of them left school entirely. Cheryl Champin was devastated by what happened. She said it tarnished her reputation as an admissions counselor. She said, I promised these parents that their kids would be OK, and they weren't. She left her job the next semester and moved to Maryland. Ricky Brown, who was one of the named plaintiffs, graduated SUNY and went to Boston College School of Law.

And after law school, he failed the bar exam. Ricky was very discouraged. He thought about giving up on being an attorney. But attorney Scott Fine, who by this point had been in his life for years, was like, no, you have to pass the bar. Scott's law firm took on the costs of Ricky's bar exam and gave him enough money to take time off work so that he could study.

And when it came time for this state trial, Scott Fine made Ricky Brown the second chair during the trial. Oh, my gosh. He was part of the team. Yeah. Isn't that wonderful? Yes. How about some bad stuff now?

Oh, no, thank you. Pass. Any hooters. Yeah. It's just on to the next. We're going to go. I would say that on this podcast any time I don't want to hear what you're talking about. Testimony on this case went on for about a month, And at that point, the judge dismissed the class action lawsuit.

Really? So the plaintiffs got whittled down to just a few people. And those few people, they got some money but not much. By the time it was all said and done, they'd been dealing with this shit for 14 years. Scott Fine and his law firm had done all the work pro bono, and that was a good thing because if they hadn't, it would have cost about $1.5 million, which honestly seems on the low side. Seems very low. At some point in all this, 60 Minutes obtained some of the police records from the original investigation. In all this, 60 Minutes obtained some of the police records from the original investigation.

And that's how it came out that in her original statement, the victim never said anything about her attacker being young or having a cut on his hand. That's also how it came out that the dog handler said that the dog had tracked the attacker running away from the school. So, you know, that was disturbing. And what made it even more disturbing was that it fit into a larger pattern. Shocking. No one saw that coming. Well, you're going to need to buckle up for this next part. Click. Ring-a-ding-dong!

Any hooters, that's me bringing it back in. So this is very interesting. This investigation had been handled by State Police Troop C. And Trooper David Harding was part of State Police Troop C. And at some point, the CIA interviewed him for a job. You know, he's all happy to be there. Oh, I'm going to give all the impressive answers. And as part of that interview, they asked him if he was willing to break the law for his country. And he said yes. And as an example, he told them that he had a history of fabricating evidence in cases where he was sure that they'd captured the guilty party. How confident do you have to be that that is the right answer to offer up that information?

If they asked me that, I'd be like, absolutely not. I follow all the rules 100 percent of the time. And I would assume that's the answer they're looking for. I wouldn't necessarily with the CIA. Yeah, I mean you're right obviously. OK. For real though, how would you answer – is that – that's how you – That's absolutely how I'd answer it.

See, I feel like I look at the rules and if I think a rule is stupid, I don't follow it. Yeah, I don't do that. I know you don't. I look at the rules and if I think a rule is stupid, I don't follow it. Yeah, I don't do that. I know you don't. I follow all the rules. Oral sex was illegal in Virginia until 2014. Well, I've never been to Virginia. Well, you know Kansas has to have some crazy ass rules.

I'm sure you've done things that are against the law. That's probably true. I'll tell you, the Emerald Club would be violating a lot of laws. And you're going to have to be OK with that. Yeah. OK. I'm not real comfortable with that. So he thought that the CIA would be super impressed by his answer.

They weren't. They handed that information over to the Department of Justice. I mean, the thing is, like, for him to be that confident in that answer, that just shows that everyone around him was part of this, approved of it, knew about it. Yes. So, yeah, they ask him that question and he thinks, well, of course. Yeah. This is how we do it. This is how we do it. This is how we do it.

We are super racist. We plant fingerprints. This is how we do it. We sprinkle cocaine. God, you know what? It makes me want to give up on our dream of that business. Now we'll just sing full time. I love it.

All the time. What if we have karaoke night at the Emerald Club? It would be just us. People would leave. They'd keep trying to any hooters us out of their ears. Ring a ding dong. But if they think that would stop us, they're wrong. And we'd be like those business owners in every episode of Kitchen

Nightmares where we're the only patrons at the place and we can't figure out why we're losing 50 grand a day. It's just me slamming martinis while using American Pie at the karaoke bar. Anyway. We have to eat all the pretzels that Emeril makes.

He's surprisingly insecure. What, you guys don't like him? You liked these yesterday. You don't like them today. I tried a new recipe. Bam. I kicked it up a notch. Oh, my God.

Oh, no. You know, I feel like it's been a while since we did one of these episodes where it stays on the rails for a really long time. And then we're just like, we're getting toward the end and we're just all over the place. I can't even see the rails anymore. Just a mound of pretzels. So this was a big scandal and it could be several episodes on its own. Yada, yada, yada. David and a few of his buddies went to prison.

Oh my gosh. Well, yeah, I gosh. Well, yeah. I mean. Well, yeah. Yeah. Literally lifted fingerprints from when somebody was like in custody. And planted them. Oh, for fuck's sake.

So, yeah, the bottom line was that this group of investigators sucked balls. So in this episode of 60 Minutes. Sorry. I'm very sorry. That's what the court said. That's in the official court record, isn't it? Mm-hmm. When they sentenced him to prison, they were like, well, you suck balls. You suck balls. That's what the court said. That's what the official court record said. When they sentenced him to prison, they were like, well, you suck balls.

I'll be bloody in there for you to suck. That's what they said, Kristen. Don't look at me like that. Do you think that's what people want? What do you mean? These prisoners, like, a new inmate comes into prison and the guy's like, yeah, I can't wait for him to suck my balls. Well, probably, yeah. I mean, I don't think they'd turn him down.

They wouldn't any hooter. So in this episode of 60 Minutes, they interviewed this girl, this guy, Carl Chandler. A state police investigator with Troop C. And they asked him about some of the discrepancies between what was in the signed statements and what they presented to the court and the media and anyone who would listen. And the interviewer specifically asked him about what the victim said about her attacker. He said, she said he was a black male, but she doesn't say he's young.

And Carl said, my guess would be that she told me that. And when I take statements, I did not put in speculation and things of this nature. So then they had this awful moment where the interviewer goes, did you hesitate for a moment and think, you know, we just can't lay out a dragnet for every black man at the university? No fucking shit. And Carl said, no, didn't even occur to me. He said, it occurred to me that I could. That's worse than what I said. I just spit everywhere.

Yeah. Oh, my gosh. So this was an egregious case of racial profiling, and people fought to stop it from happening. And, you know, it just didn't work out. Yeah. On the 20-year anniversary of the blacklist incident the school held a day of commemoration. A ton of people came and Cornel West spoke and it looked like a very moving event but the school never formally invited any of the men who'd actually been on the list. That seems like the first thing you do.

Right. So I want to end with a quote from Thurgood Marshall, and it's the quote that appears at the beginning of the documentary. And I just think, I mean, it sums it up. It reads, history teaches that grave threats to liberty often come in times of urgency when constitutional rights seem too extravagant to endure. When we allow fundamental freedoms to be sacrificed in the name of real or perceived exigency, we invariably come to regret it. So one of the students who was interviewed said he feels like what happened in 1992 is honestly even more likely to happen today.

Yeah. Yeah. And that's the story of the blacklist. I had never heard of this case. Oh, my gosh. Isn't that wild? Yeah. Oh, man.

You know what we should do now? What should we do? Write up a business plan. For the Emeralds Emerald Club? Or we could just take questions from our Discord. What do you think about that? We could also do that, yeah. And to get in our Discord, you just have to support us

on Patreon at the $5 level or higher. One semester asks, is London hitting the terrible twos? My daughter will be three next week and I want to pull my hair out. So London is definitely developing some attitude. I wonder where she got that. No idea. Okay, so last week, literally last Wednesday, I was like reading through my case, finishing it up, and London was playing. And I heard her go into the bathroom, and she came out with nail polish remover that she had pulled from like the basket under the sink. And I was like, oh, give that to mama.

And so she didn't want to. She said no. Yeah, because it's hers. And I was like – And she indicated that she was going to put it back. And I was like, no, because you said no. Yeah, because it's hers. And I was like and she indicated that she was going to put it back and I was like no, because you said no you can't have it anymore.

And so I took it from her and she grabbed both hands around the nail polish remover as hard as she could and she said London, do it! Were you intimidated? I was not.

And I looked at her and I said, absolutely not. And I took the nail polish remover from her. And then she said, she looked at me very sad. And then she threw herself onto the couch. And she said, London, cry, couch. And that is why this Christmas I'm giving her all the nail polish remover she wants. Please do not. Ooh, Winston the Corgi asks, if you had to be Alice in Wonderland, would you rather shrink into the tiny bottle or grow so big you're popping out of the house? Okay. So I would shrink down tiny because I – do other people do this?

Okay. All the time. Okay. I will, like, snuggle up to David and, like, we, like, cuddle. And then I say to him all the time, I wish I was real tiny and I could fit in your pocket and you could just carry me around all day. And then he's really sweet and he says, I would love that. You fucking weirdos. I could just look down in my pocket and you're just in there hanging out.

I think that sounds terrible to be tiny. Really? You're so vulnerable. Someone could step on you. Well, that's true. Like me when I become a giant. Because I would definitely become a giant. You would become a giant? Hell yeah.

What would you do? Giant stuff? I would get David to wear a giant shirt with a giant pocket and I'd crawl into it. Because he has also told me that he would enjoy that. He did not. He only wants to carry me around in his pocket.

No, what would I do? You never asked Norm, like, if one day you woke up and you were super tiny, if he'd carry you around in his pocket with him? No. Is that not the thing people ask people? Never. I have thought now, you know, because I'm tall, like I have thought many times about how great it must be to be like 5'2". Yeah. With like a normal sized man. I mean, you'd feel like a teddy bear, right?

Yeah. I would feel adorable if I was 5'2". Yeah. So I have thought a lot about that, but I would not want to be shrunken down to pocket size because of the vulnerability. I would just love—Dave would take care of me. I'd just love to bring him in his pocket all day long. How's he going to find out you've been shrunken down? You'll be on the floor screaming, help!

And he's, squish! Death by crock. We're going to have to work out a system now that I can alert him that I've been shrunken down. Cheeks are the butt of the face. Says, we hear a lot about you guys when you were kids, but what about for when you get old? Any plans slash dreams for your golden years yes what do you got here's the plan okay you me kyla casey we all live in a retirement community we have our own little apartment so we have our space and you know because casey and i

aren't having kids so you know the kids will come yeah visit you know yeah and I imagine we'll get into QVC oh yeah absolutely I feel like and there will be some little events maybe movie night maybe Turner classic movies we'll play Jumanji or something it sounds amazing. I love this idea. You ready for it? Casey and Kyla, please clear your schedules. Okay.

This is a real, this is a real thinker here and something we've got to make a plan for. Michael, the full meaty boy, asks, how are you going to do

your live taping at ObsessFest if you can't go patty cut that to cover up all of Kristen's filthy thoughts? Oh, my God. I'm so nervous about it. I have thought about that. Right? Yeah.

And it's like, am I just going to be totally nervous the whole time and not say shit? We have to stay away from Disney adults. Yeah, literally away. Because fucking freaks. Stay away from me. Yeah, so can't mention Disney adults. Nope. Yeah, I mean, hmm.

Yeah, it's going to be tough. It is. It is going to be tough. It is. It is going to be tough. I mean, if I say something that doesn't land, I'm just going to have to ask them to forget it. We have one of those men in black, like, mind eraser things. That's exactly what we'll do. Yes. Dop and Ditz ask, do audio books count as reading?

Fuck yes, they do. I'm listening to Verity right now, and I will 100 percent tell people when I am done that I read Verity. Yeah, of course. Yeah. Also, who else has read Verity? Because holy shit. Right here. Oh, I'm all creeped out by it.

I have discovered I can't really do a book that's just all horror all the way through. Yeah. I can't be tight buttholed just continuously. I'm a slow reader, so it's tight butthole all day. It's going too long. Also, I mean, we have joked about this before that, like, for women, porn is just like a regular book. There's so much sex in this book. Yeah.

Holy shit. And see, my butthole tightens there, too. So that's what I'm saying. It's so much sex in this book yeah holy shit and see my butthole titan's there too so it's that's what i'm saying it's so much that's my colleen hoover is that right yeah that's right all right is that right yeah colleen hoover oh another one from duupenditz here. She says, Kristen, Brandy did a big case. Jodi Arias, what big case will you be doing? When will you be doing a two-parter?

The case of the shut-up. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. It would probably be on something that no one has asked for. Like Abraham Lincoln's assassination. Kristen's dying of Jay Simpson. No. No.

Never. Oh, my God. Okay, this question is not for me, but I have strong opinions. So Carlos is dreaming dimples. Says Kristen thoughts on the Oxford comma. I simply cannot get behind the nonuse of that necessary little bugger. I am very pro Oxford comma. It just looks wrong if it's not there.

Yeah. OK. So controversial take. Yeah. As someone who studied journalism, I should be anti Oxford. Yeah. But I's not there. OK. So controversial take. Yeah. As someone who studied journalism, I should be anti-Oxford, but I am for it. OK. Yeah. All right.

It just makes sense. It makes sense. There are certain journalism rules. Like for a long time, website was two separate words and web was capitalized. That's stupid. That's just stupid. It just looks wrong. And you do it and people try to correct you and you're like, actually,

I mean, I think they've stopped that because it was nonsense. But yeah, I like the Oxford comma. Me too. Should we move on to Supreme Court inductions? Yeah, let's do some Supreme Court inductions. To get inducted on this podcast, all you have to do is

join our patreon at the seven dollar level or higher and then we will you know say your name and uh your favorite cookie and we're never changing it ever never amanda evanson chocolate chip jamie marino oreo peanut butter and chocolate oh yum oh yeah that does sound good creepy little panda white chocolate macadamia nut. Megan. Okay, I love this because Megan, I'm sorry, I didn't even see the last name because I was reading this. Megan is spelled M-E-I-G-H-A-N.

And then she included, it's just Megan with extra letters. Megan Moore. Any free cookies, not having to pay for them makes them taste better. How often are you getting free cookies, Megan? Yeah, where are you getting those free cookies from, Megan, with extra letters? Is it where you got all your extra letters? Oh, the dub-bub. Any hooters?

Biz. Chocolate chip with walnuts. Blakely Corbin. Snickerdoodle. Haley Laurel. Panera's Kitchen Sink Cookie. Everybody loves that damn... I gotta get one of those.

Get me to that hospital food. Boomooling. Fudgy Brownies. It's a cookie. It's a bar cookie. You're a fucking liar. Don't you dare. Mellie Williams.

My Mom's Sugar Cookies. My mom's sugar cookies. Your mom's sugar cookies? Wow. Got her. Got him. Fucking Angie. Oh. Bumbu Nuelos?

Oh, it's a Mexican sugar cookie thing. Hang on. I've got to Google that. You had that? I don't know that I've had it. I feel like I would recognize the packaging. I've never had that, but it does look good. Hayley Nicole. White chocolate

macadamia. Alicia Dill. Oatmeal chocolate chip. Sarah Gazda. Snickerdoodle. Welcome to the Supreme Court! Thank you, everyone, for all of your support. We appreciate it so much. If you're looking for other ways to support us, please find us on social media. We're Thank you, everyone, for all of your support. We appreciate it so much.

If you're looking for other ways to support us, please find us on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Patreon. Please remember to subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen and then head on over to Apple Podcasts and leave us a five-star rating and review. Then be sure to join us next week when we'll be experts on two whole new topics. to join us next week when we'll be experts on two whole new topics. When we'll be experts on two whole new topics.

Podcast adjourned! And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste

from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. I got my info from the documentary Brothers of the Blacklist, the article Brown vs. the City of Oneonta for the ACLU of New York, and the article The Blacklist by CBS News. I got my info from an article by Erica Marie for OurBlackGirls.com, an article by Mary Hallberg for Mary for OurBlackGirls.com, an article by Mary

Hallberg for MaryHallbergMedia.com, The Charlie Project, The Houston Chronicle, Wikipedia, and The Court Record. For a full list of our sources, visit LGTCpodcast.com. Any errors are, of course, ours, but please don't take our word for it. Go read their stuff.