Let's Go To Court! - 228: The San Antonio Four & Michele Neurauter

Episode Date: September 21, 2022

When Liz Ramirez’ nieces came to visit her for a week in 1994, they had a nice time. They went to the pool. They played basketball. They ate hot dogs. Liz’s roommate, Kristie Mayhugh met the girls. So did Liz and Kristie’s friends, Cassandra Rivera and Anna Vasquez. At the end of the week, the girls hugged their aunt goodbye and went back to their dad’s house. Later, the girls came forward with a shocking allegation. They said that their aunt and her three friends had gang raped them. There’d been drugs. Weapons. Satanic overtones. The most disturbing part? It was all made up. Then Brandi tells us about Michele Neurauter, whose death inside her upstate New York home was designed to look like a suicide. But something about it seemed off. Michele had an odd rope mark on her chin. Then there was the timing. Michele had recently won a long-fought, bitter custody battle for her youngest daughter. Why would she do this now?  And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: “The Mystery of the San Antonio four,” by Maurice Chammah for the Texas Observer The documentary, “Southwest of Salem” “San Antonio Four to host fundraiser for Innocence Project of Texas,” for Henry Ramos for KENS5 “What it’s like to be falsely branded a satanic child molester,” by Chase Madar for Vice “How junk science and anti-lesbian prejudice got four women sent to prison for more than a decade,” by Linda Rodriguez Mcrobbie for Slate “Inside case behind wrongful conviction doc ‘Southwest of Salem’” by Bridgette Dunlap for Rolling Stone “Sex assault case,” Associated Press “Remaining women in abuse case freed,” by Will Weissert for the Associated Press “San Antonio Four exonerated in child rape case,” by Emanuella Grinberg for CNN “Judge clears records of wrongfully convicted San Antonio 4,” by Tim Fitzsimons for NBC News In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “Karrie’s Choice” episode 48 Hours “Family Values” episode Mastermind of Murder “Man Coerces Daughter To Help Him Kill His Ex-Wife And Stage Crime As A Suicide” by Joe Dziemianowicz “Man pleads guilty to killing ex-wife, conspiring with daughter in Corning murder” by Jeff Murray, Star Gazette “Life without parole: Lloyd Neurauter killed ex-wife with help from their daughter” by Jeff Murray, Star Gazette “Karrie Neurauter, manipulated into helping kill mother, released from prison” by Jeff Smith, Star Gazette YOU’RE STILL READING? My, my, my, you skeezy scunch! You must be hungry for more! We’d offer you some sausage brunch, but that gets messy. So how about you head over to our Patreon instead? (patreon.com/lgtcpodcast). At the $5 level, you’ll get 35+ full length bonus episodes, plus access to our 90’s style chat room!  

One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court. On this episode, I'll be talking about the San Antonio Four. And I'll be talking about another suspicious staircase death.

When are you going to run out of these? I don't know. There's a lot of them. Also, why did you allow me to order the ribeye for lunch? I feel like I can't move, can't speak. But I really want mashed potatoes. Yeah, I had a delightful pork chop. You always get the pork chop. Which is what I've had for the last five weeks.

I'm more of an adventurous gal myself. Okay, when we were walking out, a server was carrying a salad with salmon on top of it. Did you catch a glimpse of that? No, I did not. It looked amazing. I bet you $100 you won't order that next time. Oh. And the money for this bet will come from the podcast. I like salmon.

I would be questioning what salad. I know. Yeah, there we go. I'm going to win this bet for sure. I want that fart salad you and Norm ate that one time. Don't call the Brussels sprout salad the fart salad. It smelled like farts. Just because it gives me. Do you know anything about this case I'm about to tell you about?

No, I don't know anything about it. Great. It's terrible. First, let's plug the Patreon. Everyone, if you want more of this. Why wouldn't you? By the way, I'm doing a lot of my own choreography right now. It's the I ate too much steak for lunch dance.

And if you want more of that, join our Patreon at the $5 level or higher. We got a hot new bonus episode. Oh, it's hot. Piping hot. And it is meaty. Oh, it's hot. Piping hot. And it is meaty.

Okay. Brandy has the biggest balls in all the land because she covered Sam Shepard. Woo! I was sweating by the end of it. I was sweating because I was on the edge of my seat wondering if I might fall out of my seat. I, on the other hand, covered horse kidnapping, which is what we call horse napping which I don't know how to spell don't worry about it

anyway if you want to hear those things just sign up on our Patreon sign up at our Patreon I don't think that's what people say no sign up for our Patreon

there we go it is located on the internet at patreon.com slash lgtcpodcast. You Google dark web and then you go to www. Backslash, backslash.

I think you're going to like this one. You just said it was terrible. Yeah, but if I'm not mistaken, Brandy, you enjoy a satanic panic. You've always been very concerned about Satan and Satan's influence. Satan's panties, yes. Okay, calm down. I love satanic panic, so yes. Here we go.

I'm on the edge of my seat. I just got very perked up. You see, it was there like a visible change in me. Yes. You grew four inches that day. My heart grew three sizes that day, like the Grinch. There we go. Shoutouts to the documentary Southwest of Salem, an article by Bridget Dunlap for Rolling Stone, but the shoutiest of shoutouts to The Mystery of the San Antonio Four by Maurice

Chama for the Texas Observer. This mostly comes from that article, and boy is it a good one. Okay, here we go. Brandy, there was once a glorious time just a few decades ago when people understood the danger and severity and realness of satanic ritual abuse. It was an alarming thing, but don't worry, we panicked and then we took care of it. Seems to me that we resolved the problem because we don't hear about it so much today. Yeah. How's that for good logic? Yeah, okay.

But you know, if we don't learn from history, we are doomed to repeat it. That's what they say. So let's talk about one of the last cases in America's ridiculous satanic panic. Yes, please. Let's. Okay, picture it. It was the late 80s in San Antonio, Texas. Liz Ramirez was 16, and she was doing what a lot of 16 year olds do. She was staying out late, dating boys, arguing with her mom. But then one day she overdosed on some of her mom's

prescription medication. So her mom, Gloria, took Liz to the hospital. And as soon as Liz recovered, Gloria kicked her out of the house. Oh, my gosh. Right? Thoughts, comments, concerns? I'm concerned about that parenting. Yeah, that seems like a weird move. Yeah. Liz didn't have many options, so she moved in with her sister, Rosemary. Rosemary lived with her husband, Javier Limon.

And her baby. And her three babies. Okay. Very good, Brandy. Talk about a satanic panic, am I right? Oh, my God. Satan's baby. Everyone, Brandy's wearing her overalls today, so she's really feeling herself.

I am feeling myself. Really cute. But this wasn't a good environment for Liz. Javier wouldn't leave her alone. Oh, no. He was constantly lecturing her and talking down to her. And even though she was a minor and his wife's sister, he hit on her. Gross. As soon as she could, Liz moved out of that house and in with a friend from school. And it was around this time, when she and her friend were getting closer, that Liz accepted that she was attracted to women. She and her friend started dating, and that was pretty bold. As a general rule, people in San Antonio in the 80s were not accepting of lesbian relationships.

On top of that, Liz's family was very conservative and Catholic. And when her mom found out that Liz was dating a girl, she disowned her. I didn't put this part in my notes, but it seems like not just like, OK, we're done. It was like, let's go to the courthouse. Let's make this official. Oh, yeah. We're done. Yeah. That was devastating.

Liz stayed close with her siblings and she just tried to keep her head above water. But it wasn't easy. In addition to going to high school, she worked long hours at a bunch of low end jobs. And finally, in her senior year, it got to be too much. So she dropped out. The silver lining in all this was that Liz found other young women who understood what she was going through. Through her job at a local grocery store, she met a girl named Christy Mayhew. Christy was a lesbian and her parents were not supportive. At one point, she'd been enrolled at Texas A&M with the goal of becoming a veterinarian, but had to drop out due to financial issues. So Liz and Christy became friends and they moved in together.

Now, Brandy, in the Texas Observer article, it says they were just friends. Long-term friends, Nothing more than friends. But in the documentary, they said that they did date a minute, and there seemed to be a vibe there. Okay. I'm not mad at that. No. They later became friends with a woman named Cassie Rivera.

Cassie had been married with two kids, but was now divorced. And then one day, when Cassie went into Little Caesars to pick up a pizza. Pizza, pizza. That's what she said. She met Anna Vasquez. Anna was actually a friend of Liz's from high school. They'd played volleyball together. And when Anna and Cassie saw each other in that Little Caesars, They found love in a hopeless place. How dare you describe Little Caesars pizza as a hopeless

place. Have you tried their crazy bread? It's really good. It is so good. Later that night, they went to a carnival. Okay. Do you know anything about San Antonio? I've been to San Antonio.

Good. That'll come in handy, perhaps. Okay, great. Cassie said what struck me as the strangest thing in this documentary. She goes, since we were in San Antonio, we all decided to go to the carnivals. I don't know what that means. Okay. San Antonio listeners, reach out.

Are you all just having carnivals all the time? She said it like, well, naturally. Naturally in San Antonio. We had no choice but to go to the carnivals. No, I mean, I don't associate carnivals with San Antonio at all. You know what I associate San Antonio with? The Riverwalk. It's lovely.

Hmm. You know what's lovelier than a Riverwalk? A carnival? Yeah. Going around in one of these. Whee! Is that supposed to be a Ferris wheel? No, it's one of those.

That's way funny. One of the cool ones. Okay, but you were doing it this way. The cool ones go like this and then sometimes tilt. Well, maybe mine tilted. I mean, your people fell out and died. Well, you know what?

Today we're in San Antonio. Tomorrow we're in El Paso. So we're just going to keep moving and hope the bad press doesn't catch up. You're like the Bamboozler. That's what it was called. The Bamboozler at World's Fun. World's Fun used to have one.

It was white and you sat in it. Wasn't that the one where people would throw up in it? No, that was the Finnish fling. The Finnish fling was where the centrifugal force of the rotation sucked you to the wall. Yeah. And then the floor dropped out. Yeah. That's the finish fling.

And then people threw up. Yeah. Disgusting. Yeah. No, the bamboozler, white cage. You're just barely strapped in. Okay. A loose strap.

There's just a little chain. I don't know that it's stopping anything. And you're supposed to hold on. Uh-huh. And then, yeah. And if you don't hold on, it's your own fault. It starts spinning and then, yeah, it tilts you up and then it comes back down. It's real creaky sounding.

I don't think it's open anymore. For obvious reasons. We're going to have to do an amusement park theme one day. Yeah. Yeah. I realize theme. Theme park. Theme park.

Maybe some people were confused. Theme park themed episode. Very good. So it was kind of beautiful. These four young women who might otherwise have been on their own had found one another. This was especially great for Anna and Cassie. What Anna and Cassie had was really sweet. Anna loved Cassie's kids and she applied to nursing school and Cassie

had a job at AutoZone and just was obsessed with cars, wanted to become a mechanic. She wanted to get in the zone. AutoZone. Thank you so much, Brandy. You're welcome. In this group of four friends, everyone had an immediate goal. Christy wanted to go back to veterinary school. Anna wanted to go to nursing school. Cassie wanted to become a mechanic. But Liz wasn't so sure what she wanted. Her life was kind of tumultuous. After she'd broken up with her high school girlfriend, she'd started dating a guy named Hector.

That relationship didn't go well, so they broke up. And by the time they broke up, Liz was pregnant. She was like 20 years old, single, pregnant. She had like no money. And it was around this time, when she was very vulnerable, that her sister Rosemary's now ex-husband, Javier Limon, began reaching out to her. Oh, no. At the time, Javier and Rosemary were in the middle of a nasty custody battle, and now he was, you know, in love with Liz. Naturally.

He left her long, desperate messages on her answering machine he wrote her love letters he offered her rides he gave her money brandy's making a face all of it it was complicated well okay yes it's very complicated i'm sure because liz probably doesn't have the ability to turn down the gifts and the money that he's offering. Yes. She needs to take that. Yes. Yeah.

That was my take, too. So by all accounts, she was uncomfortable what Javier was doing, but it seemed that her friends got kind of frustrated because she didn't totally turn down everything. But again, like, I'm sorry, you're pregnant and single and you don't have a lot of money. Yeah, someone's offering me a ride to work, sure. Yeah, great, I don't have to walk wonderful or figure out cab money,

whatever. Yes. But she didn't want to date her sister's ex, and she didn't even really like him as a person. But then he proposed to her. And she was like, whoa, nope, nope, nope, nope. Absolutely not. He framed the proposal as, hey, you're pregnant.

Let's get married, which is like super romantic. Yeah. And she said, well, my baby has a father and you're my sister's ex. No, I'm not interested. Mm-hmm. Javier didn't take it well. and you're my sister's ex. No, I'm not interested. Javier didn't take it well. And at some point, he either realized or was told that Liz was into women. And he really didn't like that.

But Liz must have figured that he'd get over it. And anyway, she wanted to have a positive relationship with him. Family was very important to her, and he was the father of her nieces. So in July of 1994, when Javier asked if she'd mind watching the girls for a week, she said, not at all. Her nieces were seven and nine, and so they went over to Aunt Liz's apartment and, of course, Christy was there and occasionally Anna and Cassie dropped by. They had a great time. They played basketball. They went out and got hot dogs. They went swimming.

They went to Walmart and bought a fish. And the fish died and they returned the fish. No. They do have like a seven-day return policy on the fish. How do you know that? I don't know. I used to buy fish with my grandma at Walmart a lot. Really?

Yeah. Like how often were you two buying fish? Well, my grandma – so my grandparents – well, my grandma watched me when I was a kid. This we know. And my grandparents had a big aquarium in their dining room. And so as like the kid that was there all the time, I got to pick out the fish for the aquarium. And so, yeah, we'd get fish at Walmart a lot. We'd get fish at, I don't know, pet store.

There was a pet store right by our house. I don't remember what it was called. Did they die a lot? Yeah. We got like guppies and shit. Oh, yeah. Neons and. Yeah. Yeah. Those aren't guppies and shit. Oh, yeah. Neons. Yeah.

Yeah. Those aren't long for this world. My grandpa, his favorite were angelfish. And so I always picked out angelfish for him, which is why I have an angelfish tattoo as a memorial for my grandpa. I had no idea that was why. Yeah. That's so sweet. Oh.

I picked out a lot of fish. No, I believe it. No one's doubting you. At the end of the week, the girls went home. And then everything turned to shit. The little girls were

outside. It appears they were being watched by their grandma, and they were playing with Barbies. And they did that thing that a lot of kids do. They took their Barbies' clothes off, and they had them kiss. Yeah. And their grandmother... Freaked the fuck out and was like, where the fuck have you seen that? Yep.

Every kid has done that. Yep. Pretty soon, Javier came home. And, you know, whatever this was, he wanted to get to the bottom of it. He asked the girls a bunch of questions. And that's how they figured out that while the girls had been in Aunt Liz's apartment, they'd been held down and gang raped by their aunt and three topless lesbians. That never happened.

That is ridiculous. It's so ridiculous. Javier took the girls to the hospital and Dr. Nancy Kellogg examined the girls and confirmed that they had scarring on their genitals that was consistent with penetration. What? Yep. Dr. Kellogg noted that perhaps there had been some satanic abuse. That's quite the fucking leap.

Brandy, this person is a professional. She's examined thousands of sexual assault victims. She knows satanic abuse when she sees it. The devil's hand was in all of this. Okay. What? She shared her concerns with the authorities and they were also concerned

because no one likes satanic abuse. Except for you, maybe. You don't seem very concerned. Because it didn't fucking happen. Shortly after the police got involved, Liz was getting home from her shift at Arby's when a detective dropped by her apartment and told her that he was investigating a sex crime. He asked her if she could come down to the station and answer a few questions.

And she said sure. her a few questions. And she said, sure. When they got to the police station, he told her that her nieces were accusing her and her friends of molesting them. Liz was stunned. She was like, well, that's not true. And the detective asked, have you been in lesbian relationships? lesbian relationships? And Liz said, yes. He asked, have you ever left your nieces under the care of your friends? And she said, yes. And he asked, are those friends lesbians?

Oh, my gosh. And she said, yes. Not just lesbians, satanic lesbians. The worst kind, if you ask me. Case closed. At the time of this interrogation, Elizabeth was four months pregnant. The detective told her that if all this turned out to be true, she wouldn't be able to keep her son. Wow.

Liz tried to say that she was pretty sure Javier was just getting revenge on her for rejecting him, but the cops didn't listen. A while later, Christy and Cassie and Anna were also arrested, and of course they all denied any wrongdoing. And they all cooperated with the investigation. Anna genuinely believed that if she just told the truth, she'd be fine. Of course. A couple of friends told her that she needed an attorney, but she was like, well, why would I need an attorney? I'm innocent. I didn't do anything.

Literally nothing happened. Yeah. Christy felt the same way. She went in for the interrogation, and she was asked a lot of questions about her sexuality, and she answered them all truthfully. She told them, yeah, I'm a lesbian. The women figured that, I mean, it wouldn't be that hard to figure out that this horrible sexual attack had never taken place.

For one thing, the four women all worked very different hours. They came and went a lot. The girls were saying that all four of them had raped them over a period of two days. But there was no time period over the course of that week when all four women had been at the apartment together. Yeah. So great. Easy peasy. Let's close this thing back up.

No. No, no, no, no, no. I don't know if you heard, Brandy, but the doctor said that there was physical evidence in this case. Well, that doctor is full of shit. That doctor has the last name Kellogg. And how dare you? I thought you respected breakfast cereals. Cereal heiress.

Yeah, so nothing seemed to matter. The girls said it happened and a doctor had examined them and confirmed that it happened. The DA offered the women a deal. They were offered 10 years of probation if they just admit that they were guilty. And all four women refused. By this point, they all had defense attorneys, and Liz's attorney was telling her, you know, you're going to be fine. They don't have anything on you.

But Anna's lawyer saw things differently. He said, if you go to trial, you're going to lose. But if you want to go to trial, we'll do it, and I'll fight for you. I mean, yeah, that attorney's probably right. Yeah, I mean, I really appreciate how blunt he was with her. Ultimately, all four women decided, no, we're going to fight. Several months later, Liz gave birth to a baby boy, and three days after he was born, she was taken to jail. She said that the arresting officers didn't even let her kiss him goodbye.

Wow. About two years later, it was time for her trial. And jury selection was interesting. trial. And jury selection was interesting. The fact that she'd had lesbian relationships was going to be a big factor at her trial.

And so prospective jurors were asked about their thoughts on homosexuality. And a lot of them said that homosexuality made them uncomfortable. Which you'd hope would be disqualifying, but it wasn't. You sure wouldn't think it would be.

The guy who ended up being her jury foreman was a minister, and he admitted that he believed homosexuality was a sin, but he said he wouldn't let that belief cloud his judgment in this case. So don't worry, Brandi. Yes, he will. Brandi, no, I can see you're worried. He just said he wouldn't let that belief cloud his judgment in this case. So don't worry, Brandi. Yes, he will. Brandi, no, I can see you're worried. He just said he wouldn't let it cloud. Yes, he will.

This guy should not be allowed to be on the jury. Before the trial began, the defense got a little victory. They got the judge to agree that the idea that these attacks might be satanic should not be allowed in court. Duh. Yeah. But at trial, the prosecutors said things like Liz sacrificed her nieces on, quote, the altar of lust. So, I mean. They put it in there anyway?

Yeah. Satan was definitely. In the room. There's a real Satan vibe. I have vibes all around. Her trial took place over just a few days in February of 1997. Liz remembers being stunned by the fact that when one of...

1997? Yeah. We're having satanic lesbian trials in 1997? Tell me more, Brandy. What's going on? That's way too recent. Yeah. Yeah, we're going to have some experts who agree with you.

Holy shit. They say this is one of the last trials where this was a factor. One of the last trials where this was a factor. It's just incredible that this was even talked about in the late 90s. Yeah. It had been pretty thoroughly debunked. Mm-hmm. Except for in this case where the devil came to that apartment and— Well, the fucking McMartin preschool trial was like –

I want to say 83. Yeah. Am I wrong? I don't know. It was in the 80s. That's another episode of this podcast. It is. Go get it.

Many episodes ago. Liz remembers being stunned by the fact that when one of her nieces walked into the courtroom, she waved at her and smiled. She seemed happy to see her Aunt Liz. But in his opening statement, Prosecutor Philip Kazin, who later became a judge, fun, painted Liz as a predatory monster. Her defense attorney, Freddie Ruiz, tried to argue that the little girls were confused. The only reason that Liz was on trial was because the girl's father was infatuated with her. He wanted to marry her, but she'd said no. The prosecution argued that that was ridiculous. No father would put his daughters through a rape exam for revenge, which honestly, yeah, you wouldn't think that would ever happen.

You sure wouldn't think that. The prosecution called Liz's oldest niece to the stand, and the girl's testimony was really disturbing. She said that the first few days she and her sister spent at her aunt's apartment were totally fine. But then, Aunt Liz called her into the bedroom. Aunt Liz and her three friends were all drinking tequila. They were all topless. The little girl saw syringes and white powder everywhere. The women held her down and kissed her. They inserted things into her vagina, a tampon, a syringe full of cold liquid. Then Aunt Liz took out a gun. And when Javier called to see if everything was okay, the little girl said yes,

but that was only because Aunt Liz had a gun to her head. Okay, fuck off. This is so ridiculous. She said that after the attack, Aunt Liz told her to take a shower, and while she was in the bathroom, she heard her little sister scream. She tried to get out and help her sister, but she couldn't. The bathroom door was locked. help her sister, but she couldn't. The bathroom door was locked. Thoughts? It's insane. This story is ridiculous. Holy shit. The prosecution called Dr. Nancy Kellogg. Nancy was the pediatrician who'd examined the girls, and she had a lot of experience. She said that she had examined 3,500 sexual assault victims, most of them children. She told the court that she'd noted a scar on the older girl's hymen. It was about two or three millimeters long.

And that sort of scar was caused by penetration. In fact, it was evidence of healed trauma. That's bullshit. That's not true at all. What? Why? What? Because there are lots of things that can damage a hymen.

Riding a horse. Riding a bicycle. Like, all kinds of things that don't involve any kind of sexual activity. During cross-examination, she admitted that she couldn't tell how old the scar was or whether it had happened as the result of an accident. But, you know, she was pretty sure it was abuse. So everybody just found out. That's the evidence of abuse? It's physical evidence, Brandy.

This is so ridiculous. Side note. A writer who was interviewed for the documentary explained that for several years leading up to this case, there had been this research around what a child's genitals should look like. So there was this model of how genitals should appear. And because the girls' genitals didn't look exactly like that model, that was taken as evidence that they'd been abused. Well, that's ridiculous because everybody's genitals look different. There you have it.

A doctor told the jury that there was physical evidence that the girls were telling the truth. Oh, my gosh. When it came time for the defense to take over, the defense tried to drive home this notion that the girls were confused. In an attempt to show that maybe Javier was the bad guy, they called Rosemary to the stand, and she testified that once Javier had tracked her down in Colorado and threatened her with a gun. In other words, maybe the girls had seen someone be scary with a gun, but it hadn't been Aunt Liz. It had been their dad. Liz took the stand in her own defense and that part is most notable for the awful cross-examination by the prosecution. At one point, she and the prosecutor were going back and forth, and she said, I love those children 100%.

I would never hurt them in any way, ever. And the prosecutor said, so says OJ, ma'am. Yeah. So Liz's attorney was like, what the fuck? What the fuck? So he objected and he said, judge, did counsel make reference to OJ here? If he did, I'm going to ask for a mistrial. The judge overruled and the cross-examination continued.

You're kidding me. Nope. It gets worse. The prosecutor asked Liz if she'd ever had a sexual relationship with Christy. Here's how that exchange went. Liz. No, she wanted a relationship with me. I would not have one with her.

Prosecutor. Did you have a gay relationship with Anna? Liz, no. Prosecutor, did you have a gay relationship with Cassie? Liz, no. Prosecutor, well, you were gay and they were gay. Liz, that doesn't mean you have to be together. Prosecutor, you all were friends. Liz, because we're all gay.

Prosecutor, well, maybe I'm confused. I thought you said that if you're gay and you were friends, that's a gay relationship. What? Liz, no. You're confusing yourself because I said that Christy wanted a relationship with me, a gay relationship with me. I did not want a relationship with her. We were friends. Me, Cassie, and Anna. Yeah, they're all gay and we're friends, but that doesn't mean it's a gay relationship. We're all friends. It doesn't mean we're all intimate together, had any kind of sexual togetherness. No kidding.

How is this a tough concept? That is not a tough concept in any way. The whole idea here. You know how when you're gay, you just have sex with anyone else who's also gay? Those fucking sluts. What? They drive me nuts. Yeah, can you believe that?

No. The whole idea here was that abusing kids went hand in hand with being a lesbian. That was just part of it, you know. Wow. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Wow. Since the girl had testified that the women had put objects in her vagina, the prosecutor asked Liz, insertion of objects into the vagina is consistent with a gay sexual relationship, isn't it?

Oh my gosh. Right? relationship, isn't it? Oh my gosh. Right. Oh yeah, the things you might do with a consenting adult. Yeah. That also translates to children. Right. In his closing statement, the prosecutor told the jury that he wasn't asking them to find Liz guilty because she was gay, but they needed to consider that her being a lesbian was consistent with abusing girls. What? This is so infuriating. Don't worry. It happened in old timey times.

No, it happened in 1997. 1997. The jury deliberated for a couple hours and they found her guilty. Of course they did. She was sentenced to 37 and a half years. Shut up. She was the ringleader of a horrible gang rape of two young girls. So, yeah. You forgot satanic. Right. Satanic gang rape. two young girls. So, yeah. You forgot satanic.

Right. Satanic gang rape. Yeah. Satan was in the courtroom. Satanic lesbian gang rape. Mm-hmm. That never happened. Please don't leave that last detail in.

In February of 1998, Cassie and Christy and Anna went on trial together. But before that happened, they got a trial makeover. What, they had to look less gay? Yep. Yep. Cassie didn't, but Christy and Anna aren't, like, super feminine. So the defense was like, look, this jury is going to be super homophobic. We will fight against that with blouses and perms and eye shadow.

Oh, gosh. It's not funny. But, I mean, Christy and Anna were just like, we looked ridiculous. I mean, yeah, this just was not their look. And yet for trial, I mean, what are you going to do? Yeah. For this trial, there was a different prosecutor. It was a woman named Mary Kay Delavan.

And this trial was interesting because beforehand the defense teams found out that Javier Limon had actually taken his two daughters to a doctor for a sexual assault exam another time before this incident because he contended that they had been assaulted at their mom's house. But the judge didn't think that that was relevant. So that wasn't allowed in court. Wow. I think it's super relevant. Yep. That this dude is vindictive as fuck and this is how he does it.

Most of the time when we cover second trials, they're about the same as the first trial. I feel like we say all the time, you know, it's just the same as the first. Yeah. This one was a little different and the main thing that changed was the girl's testimony. And the prosecutor seemed nervous about that. And the prosecutor seemed nervous about that. She warned the jury that since the incident happened three and a half years earlier, the victims, quote, may not be able to keep everything perfectly straight. And, yeah, they didn't.

OK, great. This time it was Anna who threatened them with a gun, not Aunt Liz. Also, there was a knife present. Maybe there was two guns. It's hard to know. The Texas Observer article said that this prosecutor didn't focus nearly as much on the fact that the defendants were all lesbians. But when the three women were interviewed for the documentary, they were like, we were on trial for being gay, for sure. Absolutely. The aim of the defense at trial was to show that these allegations just couldn't have happened. Supposedly, all four women were attacking these girls multiple times, all at the same time.

But the defense could show that all these women had jobs with conflicting schedules, and they were rarely, if ever, all in the apartment together. So how could these attacks have even occurred? But the fact that the girls' stories kept changing really hurt this defense. Because how can you say, well, we weren't all together on Tuesday afternoon when now all of a sudden it's Thursday afternoon? Shit. And at first it was one attack, now it's two attacks. Right.

During cross-examination, the defense asked the girl's grandmother and the girls themselves why their testimony had changed. And they all insisted that it hadn't changed. If there were discrepancies between what they were saying now and what they'd said at the trial, that was because the court reporter had just gotten it wrong. No. Yep. Oopsies. That's not how that works.

Major typos. No. And so on Valentine's Day of 1998, all three women were found guilty. Shit. And they were sentenced to 15 years. Oh, my gosh. When the verdicts were read aloud, the women sobbed uncontrollably. Yeah.

The one positive thing is that the judge allowed the three women to stay out of prison until their appeals had gone through. So Cassie and Anna and Christy were free, sort of, and they were out for like a year or two. They tried investigating the case themselves. They tried shining a light on what happened to them. They tried reaching out to the gay community for support. But in retrospect, they say they think they did it all too little too late. It was terribly sad for the women and their families. Anna's mom is this sweet woman named Maria, and she said that years earlier she struggled with her daughter being gay. She went to her priest and asked him, what am I supposed to do? My daughter is with a woman. In order to be faithful to the church, do I have to be apart from my daughter?

And the priest told her, no, all that is required of you is to love her. That's all. That's amazing. He said essentially that Anna was going to face a lot of prejudice in this world and that she would need a place where she could go where there was only love. That gave me goosebumps. I know. So Maria became an advocate for the four women. She said they hadn't gotten the support they needed and they needed it now. She was really stuck on like they had all been so young when this happened.

And they were all kind of on their own. They needed help. Yeah. But they had all been convicted. And we know how hard it is to get a successful appeal. Yes. And eventually the women had to go to prison.

Their time there was rough. They were required to go to sex offender classes. Oh, my gosh. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Holy shit. Brandy, they'd gang raped two children. Oh, yeah. Holy shit. Brandy, they'd gang raped two children in like a weird satanic thing, remember?

No, they hadn't. Cassie just refused to participate. She was like, nope, I am not a sex offender. And they were like, okay, if you won't participate, you're going to solitary confinement. And she was in solitary confinement for 30 days. Shut up. That's the sort of thing that drives people insane. Absolutely.

That is just torture. Yeah. Anna did the same thing. She'd been a good prisoner. She'd earned certain privileges. But when they told her to go to sex offender classes, she said no. And as a result, she lost her commissary privileges. She lost contact visits with her family.

Oh, my gosh. I know. Years passed. Cassie's children visited her in prison, even though the prison was like three hours away from home. Elizabeth's relationship with her little boy sort of ended. I mean, she'd been two when, yeah. Yeah. A decade passed.

Holy shit. Yeah. The women tried reaching out for help with their case, but no one wrote them back. And then, weirdly, someone reached out to them. Who? It was this guy, Daryl Otto. He was an expert in fish breeding. Naturally.

He lived in Canada. Well, I think lesbian satanic panic. I think fish breeding. They go hand in hand. He lived in Canada in the Yukon Territory, and he had an unconventional lifestyle. He lived in a cabin that didn't have running water, and his electricity was a little spotty, and this dude was just constantly surrounded by huskies. The dogs?

Well, yeah. Husky boys. What he was surrounded by. And if you're concerned, so am I. He taught classes at UConn College and he was just kind of an intellectually curious guy. He was really into psychology and true crime and he loved to read up on cases. What? That's a coincidence.

What is? Okay, so he lived in the UConn. Okay. But isn't Yukon, the University of Connecticut, isn't their mascot the Husky? Yeah, I think that's 100% a

coincidence. What? Did I make this up? No, I mean, that is the Huskies. Right? Yeah, it is. But you did make up that there was like fate or like there was a lot of thinking behind that. I don't know. Yukon, please reach out.

Yukon, Canada or Yukon, Yukon. He loved to read up on cases and sort of randomly he started researching female sexual predators as one does. You know, sometimes you come across an article and you start reading it and then you want to know more. And so then you read more articles. I have a theory. What? OK, well, so this guy is like out in the tundra. Yeah.

You know, he's got no electricity. He said that he checked out a video from the college library about this. I think the dude was just bored and probably there was a really limited selection. And there's probably not a blockbuster for miles. So he just picked this up and, you know. He thought he was getting hot lesbian porn. And he wrote a letter to the manufacturer. He said,

not happy. He learned that Dirtbag is just this really upsetting court case. And he didn't see he learned that Dirtbag is just this really upsetting court case and he didn't see a single titty let alone

a vulva God talk about false advertising am I right he just saw female and sexual and he just grabbed it. Snatched it up before some other young buck could come along. He learned that, first of all, female sexual predators are pretty rare. In most cases,

a female sexual predator is a teacher who abuses one of her students. Correct. And in cases that don't fit that mold, the perpetrator is, you know, just a very disturbed person with a history of deviant behavior, with a ton of well-documented issues. Not to say that the first category isn't disturbed and all that, but, you know, you get the idea. So when he found out about this case with Liz and Cassie and Anna and Christy, he was like, huh, that's interesting. Those women don't fit the pattern at all. So he decided to write to Liz. Okay. So Liz was on this website called like writeaprisoner.com. Oh, yeah. I was like, well, that's kind of cool.

Maybe I should write a prisoner. So then I went to it and it really just looks like, you know, if you're wanting to kind of bang a prisoner. Yeah, I think those are what those are. I didn't realize I didn't realize that's what it was going to be. I was like, maybe I make a connection with somebody. And, you know, maybe I bang a prisoner. No, that was not the idea. But then you go there and

i mean all the pictures these prisoners are hot as can be so now you're really considering it sorry norm it's about support we can be together for the next five to ten years but i can't commit beyond that. I simply cannot. That was really stupid. I felt really embarrassed because, like, I was reading these articles and I was like, you know what? That is an admirable way to spend some time. I ought to do that. My goodness.

And I was, like, picturing how my life might change. Then I went to the website and, yeah, I think I know why people write to prisoners. Anyway, maybe I could write and I'd start in the letter like, I don't want to bang you. But then over time, it changes. It does. Over time, I'm like, well, what is your Zodiac sign? Yes. Is it written in the stars for us?

I'm just kidding. Anyway. So he decided to write to Liz. And the more they corresponded, the more convinced he became that she and her friends were wrongfully imprisoned. Yeah. OK, calm down, Brandi. Fucking duh. Well, no one else knew.

Whoa, that is alarming. reached out to an organization called the National Center for Reason and Justice, which was created specifically to advocate for people who had been accused of child sex abuse in the satanic panic. And I bet they were about to like shut their doors at this point. Yeah. But a writer named Debbie Nathan is the person who researches a case to decide whether the organization should step in. So she took Daryl's suggestion and she looked into the case and she was kind of surprised. Much like you, Brandi. She was like, wait, these trials took place in the late 90s?

Yeah! Weren't we all over the satanic panic by then? She was kind of shocked because by that point, most people had figured out that satanic panic was bullshit. And in particular, most pediatricians knew that satanic abuse was sort of made up. Yeah. But Dr. Kellogg evidently hadn't gotten the memo. So Debbie was like, OK, these cases need to be reexamined. No, no, no, no. Because lesbian satanic abuse is not made up.

That's the very real branch of satanic abuse. I'm sorry. I didn't know we had an expert on the podcast today. Thank you, Brandy, for being here. So she reached out to the Texas Innocence Project and two attorneys named Jeff Blackburn and Mike Ware agreed to take the case. And they burped. No, Brandy. Wow. Patty, cut that. Cut that. We were going to cut that.

That was so rude of you. By the way, Jeff and Mike are basically Kristen and Brandy. They were interviewed side by side for the documentary. And they had this really fun dynamic where Jeff would say something super liberal and controversial and Mike would like shift in his seat and look side to side and seem very uncomfortable. For example, Jeff said, a lot of lawyers jump into these cases and they think that just because their client is innocent and their case is just, they're just going to win. That is so far from the truth. If people only knew how little truth and justice had to do with the way the legal system works, they'd probably amass at courthouses with lighted torches. And poor Mike looked like he wanted to light himself with a torch.

He's absolutely correct. Yeah, but Mike did look uncomfortable. So Mike and Jeff started digging into the case and they also tipped off some journalists that there might be something there. A reporter named Michelle Mondo spent a year and a half working on this story. The New York Times did a story on it. A documentary filmmaker agreed to look into the case. And it's funny. These initial stories did raise awareness of the case, but none of them appeared to move the needle. But one person was paying attention, and it was Stephanie

Limon, the youngest accuser. She called Debbie Nathan at the National Center for Reason and Justice and said the abuse never happened. Goofbumps. She said her dad, Javier, had told her to accuse her Aunt Liz and her three friends of abuse. Stephanie said it all started when she and her sister got caught playing with Barbie dolls, just kind of being stupid. And her grandma freaked out and her dad freaked out. And they became convinced that she and her sister had been the victims of something horrible. And they kept asking, what happened at your aunt's house? What happened at your aunt's house? And they said nothing, but stuff got put into their heads and things spun completely out of control.

Stephanie felt horrible. She wrote a letter to her aunt and here's part of what it said. She wrote a letter to her aunt, and here's part of what it said. I remember everything Javier coached me to say, as well as my grandmother. I'm sorry it has taken this long for me to know what truly happened. You must understand I was threatened, and I was told that if I did tell the truth that I would end up in prison, taken away, and even get my ass beat. Yeah, it's not her fault. I will make things right, and I am sorry for everything I put you through. I was only seven, and I was scared.

Yeah, she was a child. It took a lot for Stephanie to speak out. By this point, she had children of her own, and she said that her dad had gotten word that she was going to tell the truth. And she said he threatened to get her children taken away if she opened her mouth. Amazing. Great fathering. She admitted she was scared of her dad. She said, I'll always be scared of my dad. Of course. But she recanted her story anyway. And as soon as she did that, CPS swooped in. They said they'd gotten a tip that she and her husband were violent in front of their children.

Oh, my gosh. For the record, Javier denies that he was the one who called CPS on Stephanie. I'm sure he does. Luckily, Stephanie and her husband did retain custody of their children, but this was not a quick thing. I mean, they had to go to court. It was a big, painful process. I cannot imagine. No!

So people were talking about this case again. Liz and Anna and Cassie and Christy became known as the San Antonio Four. In 2012, Anna got out on parole, but she was a registered sex offender. One kind of cute thing. So, I mean, obviously her family was like so excited to get her home. One of the first things they did, they gave her some juicy fruit gum. And she was just like, oh, my God. I haven't had gum in years.

So there's this scene in the documentary where she's just standing outside and she's just chewing gum. She's like, oh my God, I haven't had this in years. And her brother or somebody, somebody asks her, how does it feel? Like, you know, your freedom and stuff. And she goes, and again, she's just standing there, stone-faced, chewing gum. She goes, it's exhilarating. It was really sweet.

The funny thing is, Anna had always been kind of shy. But as the only member of the San Antonio Four who was out of prison, she felt it was her job to fight for her friends. So she advocated for them. And the Innocence Project attorneys kept advocating too. And in 2013, Texas passed a new law that made it easier for people to appeal their convictions in cases where they'd been convicted on junk science. That was huge because the women had definitely been convicted on junk science. 100%.

Like the junk, junk science. Junk science about junk. I mean, that's true. Those are just the facts, folks. Here to report the facts. In 2007, the American Academy of Pediatrics issued a report about sexual abuse in children. And in that report, they said that, quote, torn or injured hymens do not leave scars as a matter of scientific fact. Yeah. But Dr. Kellogg's testimony had at both trials had been

about the scar on the oldest girl's hymen and how that was evidence of healed trauma. So at some point, the local DA's office called in Dr. Kellogg and they were like, hey, girl, people are pretty fired up about that old case. But, you know, you stand by your old talking about people talking about hymens. Talking about hymens. You won't believe it. They say there's God. They're like, you stand by your old testimony, right?

What did this Kellogg bitch say? She was like, actually, I don't. Yeah. She said, if I were called to the stand again, I would testify much differently. What I said at those previous two trials was in good standing with what the medical community thought at the time. But now it's been proven to be inaccurate. OK, Brandi, you're making the face. Yeah, I disagree that it was in standing with the medical field at the time. And everyone disagrees.

I mean, like, literally, that's the excuse. But literally every article is like— Was every doctor book you read from 1982? Yeah, I mean, everyone says that's not true. I feel conflicted about this because I want to give this woman partial credit. Props for saying yes. Well, partial credit for just admitting you're wrong. Because I feel like in cases like this, we never get anyone to admit that they're wrong.

So I'm very glad. But at the same time, over the course of her career, she has testified at more than 800 trials. And I'm kind of like, ma'am, when did you get caught up to speed? When was your – yeah, when did your Hyman certification take place? And do you re-up that every couple of years or no? Yeah, you have your continuing education on that? Oh, turns out she got her medical degree from ye olde medical school.

Yeah! So, District Attorney Susan Reed took stock of the situation. The media was obsessed with this case. The Innocence Project was on it. One of the victims had recanted, and their expert witness didn't stand by any

of her previous testimony. Great. So we should file a motion to vacate those convictions because now as a prosecutor, you can see that this didn't go the right way. So Susan looked herself in the mirror and she said, let's not go to court. She announced that the three remaining members of the San Antonio Four would be released and she said she wouldn't retry them. By that point, Cassie and Christy had been in prison for 13 years. Liz had been in prison for 17. And they walked out of prison holding hands.

A crowd of friends and family cheered. That's what they said. Because somehow it still hadn't sunken in, you know? A crowd of family and friends cheered for them as they came out. Cassie went up to

her daughter, who was holding her two-year-old little girl and Cassie cupped the little girl's face in her hands and said, I'm your grandma. I'm your grandma, baby. That night, Liz met her son at Pizza Hut. He'd been two years old when she was sent to prison and they had a really nice time. He told her that he loved her and he called her mom. And that just meant the world to her. Absolutely. So the women were free, but they were still convicted felons. Yeah. That was all on their records. It affected their employment opportunities. Plus, they couldn't collect any money from the state for their wrongful convictions. Yeah. So they looked at each other and they collectively said.

No, they all got in front of a mirror. Oh, okay, great. And then they said, let's go to court. Yeah, in order to do all that, in order to clear their names, they needed to be exonerated. Yeah. So their attorneys got to work. By the way, I have a theory that Jeff and Mike spend too much time together because the documentary showed them on a few different days and they were dressed alike every single time. Cute.

No, it felt accidental. This was one of those things where like, I don't know if you do this when you're watching. Well, you don't ever watch anything. I just read everything. Okay. So I watch things and like I try to take notes on like what a person is wearing, what they look like so that, you know, I can go back and be like, oh, this is the person who said this. These two fellas, I mean, they're both white dudes about the same age. They kind of have basically the same hair color, basically the same haircut.

And I was like, oh, I'll just go by their shirts. They were wearing, like, the same shirts every time. Thank God Jeff wears glasses is all I can say. At a two-day hearing in February of 2016, Stephanie and Dr. Kellogg both told the judge that they didn't stand by their earlier testimony. The judge recommended that the convictions be vacated, but was like, well, I'm not going to exonerate you. What? Unless the other victim recants her testimony too. Seriously?

Yeah, and I hate this. So I should clarify. I'm not saying the other, I mean, now woman. I'm not saying her name. Her name is out there, and I don't have any issue with that. I mean, we tend to protect the names of victims of sexual assault. And it's clear that that's not what happened. But honestly, I think they're both victims in this, too.

I mean, this is just terrible. They are absolutely victims in this of their father. Yeah. And now they have this terrible guilt. I just can't imagine what this does to a person. Yeah. And so Stephanie was interviewed and they asked her, you know, do you think your sister would speak up? And she just said no. Like it was just clearly a hard no. Also, the judge kind of got his panties in a wad because the defense had referred to Nancy's previous testimony as junk science. And he was like, no, that was good science at the time. No, it wasn't. He was so offended. In 1997, it was not good science. Here's OK. Here's my opinion. He had also been the judge to oversee that second trial.

I hate it when these appeals go back to the judges who oversaw the previous trials. I think we need a fresh set of eyes. I agree. And I know they're supposed to be impartial and everything, but you can't tell me that their egos don't get involved. Yeah. Because, you know, he was the one who allowed that evidence in. And so if people are saying, and they weren't even saying that at the time this was junk science, which I'm sorry it was, but then he would have to admit some kind of fault and I don't think this guy is going to do that.

So the women kept fighting. They wanted their exoneration. And in November of 2016, they finally got it. The Criminal Court of Appeals declared the San Antonio Four actually innocent. Oh, my goodness. It was official. Liz Ramirez, Christy Mayhew, Cassandra Rivera, and Anna Vasquez were exonerated. They all received more than a million dollars each for the time they spent in prison, which isn't enough.

But I'm glad they received something. All four women continue to work closely with the Innocence Project, and they're all still friends. That's amazing. Anna Vasquez, the one who had told people, no, I don't need an attorney. I'm innocent, now warns people that wrongful convictions are way too common. She said, it happened to us. It can happen to you. And it still continues to happen. And that's the story of the San Antonio Fourio four holy shit that was so good that is so alarming that that happened so recently yeah it's really scary yeah

holy shit i've got an idea brandy what's that about we doing it? All righty-o. You want to talk about a suspicious staircase death? I sure do. All right. Shout outs to an episode of 48 Hours that I read and did not watch. Where do you find this shit? It's just online. All right. And an episode of maybe my new favorite oxygen show.

Uh-oh. Mastermind of Murder. Okay. I've now watched two episodes of this show and I enjoy it very much. It all started with a very odd call to 911. It was August 28, 2016 when a man called the 911 dispatch center in Corning, New York. This is

upstate New York. It's named after like Corning Glass. Oh. Like, you know, the Corningware. Yeah, I'm sorry. I'm stuck on the fact that you, for like two weeks in a row now, have covered two Michelles with one L in upstate New York. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, I haven't gotten to the fact that you, for like two weeks in a row now, have covered two Michelles with one L in upstate New York. Okay.

Yeah. Yeah. I haven't gotten to the fact that this woman's name is Michelle with one L. So, spoiler. Well, I mean, you called dibs on her. Anyway, continue. Anyway, you didn't ask, but Corning Glass has since sold off the personal products division of their company and only do like – Who owns it now?

I did actually read it, but I can't remember. Wow. So I guess it's totally useless. Anyway – Why did you lead us down this rabbit hole? They just make scientific glass now and glass for – Like beakers? I believe so.

I don't know. I feel like you didn't really do your due diligence on this. Anyway, the man on the line was super calm and he explained that he had just arrived at the home of his neighbor, Michelle with one L, Nyrider, which – fuck. I read a whole article about this case. I read the 48 Hours episode before I watched the Mastermind of Murder episode. And let me just tell you, this name is spelled N-E-U-R-A-U-T-E-R. So Nyrider was not even close to how I was pronouncing it. Okay.

Not even close to how I was pronouncing it. Anyway, he told the dispatcher that he'd arrived at Michelle Nyrider's house to pick up her 14-year-old daughter for swim practice. He told the dispatcher, he got something strange happening here. I'm at our friend's house and I thought I saw the mother standing in the stairway, but she's motionless. So what had happened is this man had come up to the front door and the front door had glass panels in it. And he looked through and just like in his view was Michelle Nyrider standing at the bottom of her stairs. Okay. was Michelle Nyrider standing at the bottom of her stairs. OK. But when he rang the bell and waved and knocked on the door, she didn't react in any way and she didn't look at him.

She was just standing there with her head down. Wait, what do you mean with her head down? With her head down. She was standing. OK. All right. And so that's when he had called the police. So Corning Police Sergeant John McDivitt was the first to respond to the 911 call.

He shows up at Michelle's house. He walks up to the door where the neighbor is standing. And he looks through the glass panels on the front door and he observes the same thing this neighbor had. There was Michelle Nyrider kind of standing at the bottom of her stairs. And so he forced entry into the home and a dog came running out and he went in. And as he got closer to Michelle, he could see that she wasn't standing at the bottom of her stairs. There was a rope around her neck. She was hanging at the bottom of her stairs.

Oh, no. She was in some stage of decomposition already. There was lividity in her legs. She'd been in this position for some time. Yeah. There was no question as to whether she was alive or not. She was clearly dead and it was clear that she'd been hung. It looked like a suicide.

Michelle was in kind of an interesting phase in her life. She was had been going through a divorce after a 25-year marriage. But the divorce was really messy. There were three children involved. But by this point, this divorce had been going on for like five years. And by this point, only one of the children was still a minor and remained at home. It was the 14-year-old daughter who was supposed to be picked up for swim practice that day. But according to those that knew Michelle, she had a new lease on life after this divorce. Her marriage had been pretty rocky. It had been, you know, very tumultuous.

And so she had really focused on her personal interests. She was a teacher. She was very involved in her faith, involved in her community. This was not a woman, according to her friends and her close loved ones, that was the case initially. So they bring in, obviously, the crime scene investigators and assess the scene. And the police chief, Jeff Spalding, came in and he took a look at the scene and he didn't like what he saw. Didn't look like a straightforward suicide to him. There was a mark on her chin that didn't seem consistent with the rope that was around her neck. OK. He thought it looked out of place.

There were also a lot of scratches to her face. The preliminary examination at the scene, whoever performed that, the coroner or whatever, said that maybe those scratches were self-inflicted, like there was a last minute, you know, attempt. Yeah, absolutely. But that would require a full autopsy for them to determine, you know, the cause and manner of death. And there was other concerns at the time. Michelle's youngest child, the 14-year-old that was supposed to be picked up for swim practice, was nowhere to be found. And she should have been in the house. So this was super concerning. They're checking the basement.

They're checking the attic. They're looking all over the house. And the 14-year-old is nowhere to be found. Hours went by. They're processing the scene. And finally, the police get a phone call from Carrie Nyrider. Carrie was 19 and she was Michelle's middle daughter. She called the police and she was sobbing.

She said that her friends had called her and let her know that her mom had been found. She was like really having trouble speaking on the phone call. And she apologized for her inability to like keep it together. And the police officer that she talked to was like, it's okay, you know, take your time, take your time. And she was like, well, my friends, they called me and they said my mom had hung herself and I just needed to call and let somebody know

that I have my sister. And they were like, oh, okay, okay, so she's safe. And she's like, yes. And they're like, what, like, what's the story? And she's like, well, she's here with me in Rochester, which was about 100 miles away from Corning. So Carrie was 19, as I mentioned, and she was a student at RIT, Rochester Institute of Technology.

She said that she had moved into her apartment to start the school year that weekend. But on Saturday, she just wanted to spend like one last night at home in her bed. And so she'd driven back to her mom's house in Corning late Saturday night. But when she got there, she and her mom got in this big fight. She and her mom fought a lot. They didn't get along very well and things often turned to like screaming matches between the two. Michelle accused Carrie of always siding with her dad in everything. And so she said her sister had been asleep on the couch when she'd gotten there and that her mom and her had gotten in this fight and she'd started screaming at her.

And so her sister had woken up in the middle of this. Her sister was super confused about what was going on, why people were yelling. And so she and her sister had just gotten in the car and driven to Carrie's apartment in Rochester. And that was the last time she saw her mom. Carrie told the police officer that she spoke to that in addition to her and her mother having a rough relationship, I'm sorry, that Michelle and Carrie's father, Lloyd Nyreider, had a really terrible relationship. They'd had a really crummy marriage, is how she described

it, and then they had had a bitter, bitter divorce, which had resulted in a five year custody battle. Oh, Lord. Yes. Over the youngest daughter's custody. Oh, that is terrible. Yeah.

So, Lloyd, Michelle's ex-husband, Carrie's father, lived in New Jersey and wanted to get custody of the youngest daughter and move her there. But Michelle fought against that, wanted to keep her in New York. It was interesting that, so Lloyd is actually the one who filed for divorce five years earlier. He had moved to New Jersey and he had been the one to file for divorce. But then he was really adamant about getting custody of his daughters, plural. He wanted custody of all of his daughters. In total, there are three daughters.

Two of them, their names are not published regularly in articles, so I'm not going to name them. So there's an older daughter and a younger daughter, and then Carrie is the middle daughter. The older daughter already had chosen to live with him, and then Carrie spent her time kind of between both houses, but the youngest daughter spent most of her time with her mother, and that did not please Lloyd. And so this bitter custody battle took place. At the time of Michelle's death, there had actually just been a ruling in this custody case after Lloyd failed to appear at a court hearing.

That's kind of shocking. Super shocking. We're talking about a guy who had made, over the course of this five-year custody trial, like 25, 26 different motions to the court. So to me, that didn't really mean much, but they mentioned that on this Oxygen show that I watched. Yeah. And so then they had a lawyer talk about that a little bit. So in a standard custody battle, they say a lot of motions is three to four. Oh, wow. So when you're submitting 24, 25,

Oh, wow. So when you're submitting 24, 25, 26 motions to the court, like this was a very long, very drawn out, very expensive custody battle. And then when they are reaching nearing the end, Lloyd just doesn't show up for the custody hearing. It was decided in Michelle's favor. It was decided. Jesus. I lost confidence in that word right in the middle of it. It's such a big word.

And that had happened like the day before Michelle was found dead. Wow. Which further bolstered her friends and family's theory that this was not a suicide. She'd won her custody battle. Right.

This woman had lots of things to celebrate. And someone was really mad at her. But police weren't having trouble getting a hold of Lloyd. They'd sent people to his house in New Jersey. They'd called him several times. So weird. Usually after you murder somebody, you make yourself available to the police. But when they spoke to Carrie, Carrie let them know that her

father was actually in California at a job interview. But she gave the police his cell phone number and they got in contact with him. And he was like, yeah, you know, I'm out in California right now. I left New York on August 26th. I was in New York helping my daughter move into her apartment on Saturday, August 26th. But I left the very next day for California for this job interview. And they're like, OK, great. So you were in Rochester, New York on August 26, the day that Michelle died. And he's like, well, I wasn't in Corning. I was in Rochester. And they were like, OK, great. Wonderful. Perfect.

He also let the police in on some information about his daughter's relationship with their mother. He said their mother was extremely volatile. She was prone to escalating outbursts. Oh. And that the girls were often scared of her. Did the girls confirm this? Carrie did. Oh. And Carrie said that, yeah, that night she'd gone there and wanted to have a peaceful night in her bed.

And then it had turned into this big fight. OK. In the meantime, the investigators are waiting to get the autopsy back to even know if they had anything to investigate here. Was this a suicide? And so they're waiting for the autopsy to come back. And then when it did, the report surprised them. The cause of death was listed as asphyxiation. That much was clear.

But the manner of death was listed as undetermined. The medical examiner had failed to reach a conclusion on whether this was a suicide or a homicide. The investigators saw this as kind of a major blow to their case. Like, OK, so we do have to keep investigating this because we aren't sure. But, yeah, who knows? Like, we're still kind of just treading water here. Yeah. But Michelle's friends and her mother were steadfast.

Michelle did not, would not, could not have died by suicide. about 36 hours after lloyd learned of his ex-wife's death he returned to the east coast from his interview in california they did check that out by the way and they were able to verify that he legitimately did have an interview in california he had gone to it it really took place. So he gets back to the East Coast and his first stop was the Steuben County Family Court. This was the court where he'd spent the last five years in a very contentious legal battle with Michelle over the custody of the children. His reason for this visit was to turn off the automatic child support and alimony payments that were processed through the court each month. First stop into town. That's what he does.

OK. You know what? That's fine. All right. Following this visit to the courthouse, he met up with the investigators. They'd asked if he could meet up and they just pulled on right up to the courthouse where he was and asked him if they could just have a little sit down. And so

he got into a police car and they performed a recorded interview with him in a police car outside the courthouse. I think that's super weird, but you know, whatever works for you. Why is that weird? Why wouldn't you just, alright, great, let's meet at a let's meet at the, great. Let's meet at a let's

meet at the police station. If you don't want to be that formal, let's sit somewhere else. I think it's weird that they sat in a police car and had an interrogation. It was all recorded. Informal interview. It was all recorded. You're absolutely right. So it's all recorded and also if they feel like this is our one

opportunity and he's not going to go with us to a second location because he thinks we're serial killers. Right. So when he met with these investigators, he talked a little bit more about his ex-wife and how she had these violent, out of control tantrums. And then he gave them the proof of his alibi, where he had been. So he had receipts for all of it. On August 26th, he had gone to Rochester, New York, which was like a seven-hour drive from where he lived in New Jersey.

But he'd gone there specifically to help his daughter move into her apartment, and he'd stayed at a hotel. And he had receipts for that. He showed them the hotel, he had receipts for that. He showed them the hotel or the receipts from the hotel. He didn't like actually physically show them the hotel. This is a Holiday Inn. He called it a micro hotel.

I wasn't sure if that's is that a brand. I think it is. Okay. Micro hotel. Yeah. I wasn't familiar. Yeah. Micro hotel in and suites. Okay.

Well, that's where he was at. All right, very good. Excellent. You know they have smart design, modern worms. I almost said modern worms. Modern worms. You don't want any of those outdated worms at your hotel. No.

Get those old worms out of here. So he said, you know, he checked into the hotel that Carrie came over at one point and then he walked her out to the car after the visit with her. And then he invited her to come back the next morning for breakfast. And then he went back in. He spent the whole night at the hotel. So they checked surveillance cameras and that story matched up. They checked his phone records and his phone was in Rochester all night. Pingy ping pinging on the cell towers out there?

That's right. That's right. Okay. Well, shit. And at 7 o'clock the next morning, Carrie showed up for breakfast and she brought her sister with her. Mm-hmm. All that seemed to match up. Weeks went by and the case went nowhere.

And then investigators were trying to like, you know, they're feeling kind of bad about themselves. It wasn't going anywhere. And so they're like, we've got there's got to be something here. I'm just picturing a very dramatic moment like from a movie. Anyway, I'm picturing them in the part where they feel bad about themselves and they have to look themselves in the mirror and be like, you know

what? You can do this. You can do this. You have this in you. This case is solvable. It's all here. God damn it. You just have to figure it out. What are you missing? And it was at that moment that they glanced at a picture that was just kind of like in a mess of other pictures and they saw something they'd never seen before.

What was it? It was a picture of Michelle Nyrider's bedroom. And they noticed that her bed was kind of pushed out of place. And there was like kind of like a weird smear on the wall. Like blood? Maybe. So they went back to the scene to compare the picture to the smear on the wall. Like blood? Maybe. So they went back to the scene to compare the picture

to the smear on the wall. Turns out the smear wasn't really visible to the naked eye. The camera had picked it up. Wow. And it was blood. It was Michelle's blood.

So they became pretty convinced that this wasn't a suicide. Yeah. Somebody had murdered Michelle and staged this scene. So they decided they needed to get a second opinion because without this being declared a homicide by the medical examiner, they couldn't really go forward with a homicide investigation or charge anybody. forward with a homicide investigation or charge anybody. And so they also learned at this time that the medical examiner who had performed Michelle's autopsy had never examined a death involving strangulation or hanging before. And so they're like, OK, we for sure need a second opinion on this.

And so they took all the photos from the original autopsy, all the files, everything to an independent forensic pathologist in Albany County. Unfortunately, there was no body for this pathologist to examine because Michelle had been cremated following her initial autopsy. Reportedly, Lloyd had insisted upon it, but he's her ex-husband. Why would he have any say? I don't know. I don't know.

I don't know. But that's what the articles say, that Lloyd had insisted she be cremated. Well, maybe it's one of those things where it comes down to the kids have to make the decision and they're in no position to do it. So he steps in under the guise of helping. Yeah. So he steps in under the guise of helping. Yeah. So this pathologist is looking over these things.

On this episode of 48 Hours that I read and did not watch, one of the investigators is talking about how they're like looking at him. And he said he's just like flipping through all the papers, you know, like a doctor. And just every now saying, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm. And then after some time had passed, he looked up and he said, this is a homicide. This independent pathologist said that Michelle Nyrider was strangled to death. She had not been hung. The interesting ligature mark that the police chief had noticed at first was from a rope, not the rope that she was hung from. And it had pulled the opposite direction. There was also unique marks on her neck that were indicative of manual strangulation.

So Michelle Nyrider was strangled to death and then it was staged to look like she had hung herself and died by suicide. So her death was now ruled a homicide. So detectives are like, great, let's move forward with this investigation. And they look into the family dynamics in the Nyrider family. And according to Michelle's friends and her mother, there was a super contentious relationship between Michelle and her two older daughters. And that was a result of Lloyd doing parental alienation. Carrie seemed to be the most impacted by this. One of Michelle's really good friends was interviewed on both of these programs, actually.

And she actually happened to also be Michelle's attorney that represented her during these divorce proceedings. Okay. And she said it got to the point that Carrie hated her mother based on the things that kind of Lloyd fed to her. Yeah.

So then investigators went and looked at the phone records again. So Carrie had told them when she'd come home that night to sleep one last night in her bed that she'd only barely walked in the door and had the fight with her mom and then she'd left like within 15 minutes. But her phone records said she spent two hours in Corning. Just enough time to commit murder. Holy shit. So police were like, holy shit, did this 19-year-old girl murder her mother? No way.

Could she have been capable of doing that? Like, would she even have been physically capable of that? And why? Oh, my God. Why would she even have been physically capable of that? And why? Oh, my God. Why would she have done that? Like not getting along with your mom is one thing. But – Has she become convinced that it would be absolutely terrible for her younger sister to be with the mom full time?

Maybe. So they started looking at possible motives. And what they found was that Lloyd was in massive debt. We're talking $100,000 in credit card debt. He was behind on his child support and alimony payments. and alimony payments. And then they also learned that the youngest daughter was listed as the beneficiary on Michelle's life insurance policy, which would have paid out to the tune of $200,000. So not a ton of money, but enough to get Lloyd out of debt.

So then they're like, OK, all right, how do we, we've got Lloyd with a motive and Carrie with the opportunity. Yeah. How do we tie these two things together? So they went back and looked at that surveillance footage again at the hotel where Lloyd said he was in Rochester all night. They'd really just done a cursory examination of it at first. Did they see him checking into his room? Yes. Did they see him walking his daughter to the car? Yes. Was he there for breakfast the next morning? Yes. When we went on a more detailed examination, they learned that, first of all, on the phone records, yes, Lloyd's phone was in

Rochester all night, but it wasn't used at all. And then when they did a more detailed check of the surveillance cameras at the hotel, they learned that Lloyd had walked Carrie to the car. He'd never entered his hotel room again after that. How did they not catch that the first time? I don't know. Well, that's really stupid. I agree. He'd never, that's really stupid. I agree. He'd never gone back into the hotel.

He, in fact, wasn't seen again on the hotel surveillance cameras until like 6 o'clock the next morning when he's seen walking across the parking lot wearing the same clothes that he wore the night before. Well, these police officers should be very embarrassed. I'm serious. That is so ridiculous. Well, these police officers should be very embarrassed. I'm serious. That is so ridiculous. Yeah, I agree. So we went back and checked again. We did a more detailed check. More detailed?

You didn't do a good job the first time. Yeah. So they're like, okay, did Lloyd and Carrie work together to kill Michelle? Did Lloyd and Carrie work together to kill Michelle? The evidence that they had at this point was enough for them to secure a wiretap on Lloyd and Carrie's phones. But by this time, a couple of months had passed since Michelle had been murdered. So the wiretaps weren't really revealing anything other than standard. Yeah, I mean, if only they had noticed what was clearly there in the surveillance footage from day one. Yeah, no kidding. Oh, boy.

Okay. Yeah. So the wiretaps aren't really revealing anything. They're just having standard father-daughter conversations. And so the detectives decided it was time to do a little thing they like to call tickling the wire. They go up and like talk to one of them, put something new out there. This is what they did. So they called up Carrie Nyrider. So an investigator calls her up and is like, hi, is this Carrie Nyrider? And she's like, yes, this is she. And the detective says, OK, this is investigator so-and-so with the Corning PD. Well, the reason

I was calling you was I wanted to know if you might have some time to stop by the station and, you know, talk to me. I have a couple of questions. I want to run by you. And Carrie was like, yeah, I can meet you on Monday. How's that work? And they were like, okay, great. So she gets off the phone with the investigator and then she immediately calls her dad, which is what they wanted to happen. And she's freaking out on the phone with her dad. She's like, I don't know what to do. I don't know what to do.

I don't know what to do. And Lloyd is like, okay, what exactly did you tell this guy that you talked to? And she's like, I don't know what to do. And Lloyd is like, okay, what exactly did you tell this guy that you talked to? And she's like, I don't know. And he's like, okay, you know, this is probably just standard procedure. Don't worry about it. You know, I don't really want you talking to them, though. And he's like, okay, this is what you do. You call him back.

You tell him, I'm not going to be able to make the Monday sit down. I was actually able to get a counseling appointment, but it's in New Jersey. So I'm going to go to New Jersey. So I won't be in town to have the sit down with you. And Lloyd's like, you know, really sell it. You know, you got to you say, I'm sorry. You know, this has all been really hard on me. Blah, blah, blah, blah. And Carrie's like, OK, OK, yeah.

And he's like, you think you could cry be great if you could cry and she's like oh this is so fucked up i mean i might be able to and he's like it would just it would just be nice if this was all over and carrie's like yeah that would be the dream. And so at this point, like it's they still don't have a lot. They haven't admitted to really anything on this call, but they know there's something they're lying about something. Right. And so at the end of the call, Carrie was like, well, OK, it can't be that serious. Right. If it was that serious, they'd just come and arrest me. And Lloyd's like, right, right. You're exactly right. They wouldn't

be like, oh, come on, just walk in the front door. They'd be telling you they had a warrant. So this is clearly no big deal. Oh my God. Yeah. So this again, like this tells them that something is going on, but it's not really enough to move the investigation forward at all. And another couple months pass without any movement in this case. And then in January of 2018, five months after Michelle's murder, they decide they're going to interview Lloyd and Carrie separately. They're going to set up an interview with Lloyd in New Jersey. They're going to set up an interview with Lloyd in New Jersey. They're going to set up an interview with Carrie in New York, and hopefully they're going to get one of them to crack. They said this was kind of like their Hail Mary pass. Like they just needed one of them

to crack a little bit so they could figure out what was going on here. So they sit down with Lloyd first in New Jersey. Really, they sit down with him at the same time, but we're going to talk about Lloyd first. So Lloyd's in New Jersey, and they're like, okay, we just need to look over some more stuff here. Let's just go over the facts again. And, you know, I've got to tell you, Lloyd, there's been a development in this case. I've got to tell you, Lloyd, there's been a development in this case. And Lloyd's like, oh, yeah? What's that?

Was there sweat just dripping down his face? Right, exactly. And they're like, this medical examiner has ruled this case a homicide. So we just need to know, were you there that night? And Lloyd's like, no. No, I was in Rochester. And the investigator's like, okay. And so that night you were in your hotel room the whole night, right? And Lloyd's like, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And the interrogator's like, okay, great. You know, Lloyd, this is what we're going to do. You know, I think this is just the best just the best next step.

Why don't we get you set up to take a lie detector test? And Lloyd, just cool as a cucumber, although he is probably sweating bullets at this point. He goes, sure. Sure, let's do it. And so they gave him like address and an appointment time to show up at this police station in New Jersey where they already had it all set up for him to take a polygraph test. And so he leaves to go do whatever until he has to go to that appointment. In the meantime, in Rochester, Carrie is now being interviewed. In her interview, the detectives who were giving her her interrogation thought that her answers were very rehearsed. Like she was very much giving them the same answers she'd already given, very robotic.

It was like she had been coached. robotic. It was like she had been coached. And then something happened. And they were just like, Carrie, we just need to know. Were you there? Were you there that night? And Carrie broke. And she said, I was. And she told them that it was because of her father. He said he had given her an ultimatum. He said that he was broke. He was horribly in debt. And that he was going to kill himself.

If she didn't. And so she was like, no, you're my parent. You are my rock. You are my person that I go to. Yeah. And he's like, well, there's one other way out of this. Oh, come on. I got to kill your mom.

It's either me or your mom. That's the only way. It's the only way out of this. And Carrie said in this interview, through tears, she said, I had to choose. And I chose my dad. And then she just like completely broke down. and she walked him through the whole thing. She said her dad did come to Rochester that night, like she'd gone to his hotel and then she had taken him to her mom's house. She had gotten him inside the house.

Her younger sister was asleep on the couch and her dad had gone into the house. Her mom was standing at the top of the stairs, saw that she had dad had gone into the house. Her mom was standing at the top of the stairs, saw that she had let her dad into the house and a huge argument had taken place. Her dad and her mom had gone upstairs into the bedroom and started screaming and yelling. At one point, her younger sister had woken up and was super confused about why her mom was screaming and what was going on. And so she just gotten gotten her sister out of the house, into the car. Oh, God. And then she'd gone back in and it was quiet.

And she went up and she saw her mom and her mom was dead. And she helped her dad stage the scene to look like a suicide. Oh, God. Oh, my God. The investigators that were having this sit-down with Carrie were stunned. That is so terrible. Yeah.

They couldn't believe what her dad had put her through. Yeah, it's shocking. Yeah. Yeah. She said afterward they had gotten in the car. She had opened, like, the back of her car and her dad had gotten in the back. Her younger sister never even knew he was there. What?

They had gone back to her apartment. She and her sister had gone in and her dad had figured out his way back to the hotel. How old is the younger sister? She's 14. Huh. Wow. She never had any idea that her dad was there that night. She'd heard her mom yelling.

That's what had woken her up. But Carrie had convinced her that it was an argument between her and her mom. And that's why they were leaving. Do you think that's true? I do. Okay. I do. So Carrie lets out all of this information.

She's super upset, obviously. She's crying. And at the end of it, they let Carrie leave the police station that day. And they expected that as soon as she'd leave, she would call her dad. And they were hoping those wiretaps were still in place. They were hoping they'd get some information. And so she left. And just as they had hoped, she called her dad right away.

And he asked how it went. And she said, not great. That was all she said. And then the call went dead. Oh, man. So at this point, investigators are super concerned that the call just ended so abruptly like that. And that like a few minutes later, Lloyd was supposed to show up for his lie detector test and he did not show up. And so they were worried that perhaps Lloyd and Carrie had some kind of father-daughter suicide pact planned for if this thing went south.

And so with that wiretap in place, they were able to track Lloyd's phone. So they start getting to work, tracking, seeing where he's at. And they were able to track his phone to a parking structure in downtown Princeton, New Jersey. So they rushed to this parking structure and they find Lloyd on the roof of the parking structure, the fifth story of this parking structure. And they go up there and as soon as they confront him, he steps up on the ledge and he threatens to jump. Yeah. This resulted in like a two-hour standoff. They got him down off the ledge, but he was still standing like right at the edge.

They were afraid to approach him, afraid of what would happen. off the ledge, but he was still standing like right at the edge. They were afraid to approach him, afraid of what would happen. At some point, like in this two-hour standoff, something distracts him. There's a video of this. It's wild. Something distracts him, and he turns to look. And at that exact moment, a New Jersey state trooper who was like a college football player runs at him full speed and tackles him to the ground.

Boy, that could have gone differently. Sure could have. Sure could have. Yeah. Yeah. So then another group of officers is trying to find Carrie. Well, they go to her apartment in Rochester and she's there. Okay.

Unharmed. Okay. They go to her apartment in Rochester and she's there. OK. Unharmed. OK. Both Lloyd and Carrie Nyrider were taken into custody in January of 2018 and they were charged with Michelle's murder. Carrie agreed to plead guilty and testify against Lloyd. Initially, they were worried that the case against Lloyd was really weak. But then Carrie gave them some more details about the case that strengthened

their case about Lloyd. So once she agreed to plead guilty and testify against her dad, So once she agreed to plead guilty and testify against her dad, she walked through the interrogators through that night again and she gave another detail to them about how they had physically staged the scene. Okay. And how in order to do that, Lloyd had had to hold up Michelle's body. And so in accordance with how she described it, they went back and tested Michelle's clothing that they had taken as evidence. They were able to get Lloyd's DNA off of her clothing. And Lloyd had told them over the course of this investigation that he'd never been in Michelle's house ever since she'd moved there.

There was no explanation for how his DNA would be on her clothing. Prosecutors believed that Carrie had been brainwashed by her dad to help him with this. They believe she was a victim of extreme parental alienation. So parental alienation is something that is very common in these like custody battle situations. But this was not your garden variety. Yes. So

parental alienation goes beyond just like one parent like bad mouthing another. It's to the point where the child will start to believe that the other parent is essentially like out to harm them. There was a story that was told in the course of this investigation when they're looking into this parental alienation aspect. That two years before Michelle was murdered, that she and Carrie had gotten into a fight. And Carrie was outside and Michelle was trying to block back out of the driveway. And like Michelle was trying.

Something happened that the two of them were trying to back out of the driveway at the same time. And Michelle came very close to Carrie and Carrie called the police and said that her mom tried to run her over, tried to kill her. Oh, wow. Yeah. There was an investigation into this and nothing ever came of it. But that went to show how extreme this parental alienation was from Lloyd to Carrie in regards to her mom. The prosecutor in this case likened Lloyd to a cult leader in the power that he held over his daughter.

And it wasn't just Carrie. It was his other daughters as well. But Carrie had been the one who was the most susceptible to it. At one point on this episode of 48 Hours, they're talking about this parental alienation. And Erin Moriarty is the correspondent on this episode. And she-'re talking about this parental alienation and aaron moriarty is the correspondent on this episode and she's a fan yes absolutely and she's like you know when she got the ultimatum she could have said no she could have just said no and the prosecutor in the case

is like sure and all those people at jonestown could have said no when they were told to drink the Kool-Aid. That's interesting. Yeah. Like that is the level of power they believed that Lloyd had over his daughter. So initially she had agreed to plead guilty to second degree murder, which I just think is, this might be unpopular. I think that's way too harsh. I think she never would have done this without her dad and the power he held over her. She was 19 though, right?

This whole thing is just awful. It is. It is. It is. So she agrees to plead guilty to second degree murder and testify against her father. And it was pretty clear as they were moving toward trial that Lloyd's defense was going to be that Carrie did it. Yeah. And he helped her to try and get her out of it. He helped stage the scene to try and get her out of trouble. He just stage the scene to try and get her out of trouble.

He just loved his daughter so much. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yeah. But there was that DNA. It really could go either way. A jury could see that either way. And so the DA decided to make him an offer, see if he would take a deal. They didn't expect him to take it. He would have to plead guilty to first degree murder and he would face a sentence of 25 years to life. And there would be the possibility that the judge could sentence him to life in prison without the possibility of parole. But they, I think, kind of sold it to him like this is the right thing to do for your daughter. Mm-hmm. Well, he doesn't give a shit. I agree he doesn't give a shit. If he was concerned about doing the right thing for his daughter,

he wouldn't have convinced her to do this. Yeah. And just as they expected him to do, Lloyd declined the deal. Mm-hmm. And then two weeks before his trial was to begin, he changed his mind. He took the deal. As part of that deal, he had to walk the court through exactly what had happened. And he did.

Kind of. Yeah. Initially, he started off by blaming Michelle. He said that he killed Michelle because he believed that she might hurt their children. Okay. Yeah. What evidence did he have of that? Exactly.

But then as he continued talking, he kind of changed his tune a little bit and said, you know, but at the end of the day, that doesn't matter. I have no excuse. Murder's wrong. Blah, blah, blah. He put like a big wooden cross around his neck and said that he'd found the Lurd. I love here's my excuse, but there is no excuse. Yeah, that's right. Well, honestly, I did it for it's for it was for the kids.

Yeah, I did it for the for their good. It was for the, you know, for the good of the kids. Yeah. I did it for their – it was for the good of the children. And I involved the children. Because that's what you do when you're a good parent. And then he fulfilled his part of the bargain. He walked them through how he planned out the murder and how he manipulated Carrie into helping him. He said he did. He said he manipulated Carrie into helping him. He said he did. He said he

manipulated her into helping him. At his sentencing, Michelle's mother gave a victim impact statement. She said that Lloyd Nyrider abused and tortured her daughter for 25 years. And that wasn't enough for him. Then he coerced his own daughter into helping him kill her mother. She said in her statement that Carrie was in jail now, facing the possibility of years in prison. And that Lloyd Nyrider should never be given the opportunity to harm anyone again. She asked the judge to give him life without the possibility of parole. And that's exactly what the judge did. Wow. In December of 2018, Lloyd Nyrider was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. Shouldn't have taken that deal. Nope.

As I already said, Kerry initially pled guilty to second-degree murder. But the more they looked into this, the more the prosecution believed that Carrie was really a victim of her father. And they didn't think that that was fair. And they allowed her to plead to a lesser charge of second-degree manslaughter. Wow. So what'd she get for that? So at her sentencing, Michelle's mother spoke again, and she said, what would Michelle want me to do?

She said, I do not believe my daughter Michelle would want a long prison sentence for her daughter. She would want her eventually to lead a happy life. And she asked the judge to be lenient. And God, that had to be so hard. So additionally, Lloyd, when he pled guilty and took his deal, he also asked the judge to please be lenient on Carrie, to please be lenient on Carrie, that it wasn't her fault. He had manipulated her. And the judge was lenient.

He gave her a sentence of one to three years. Oh, wow. She was paroled in January of 2020. They talked about this a little bit more at the end of the Oxygen show, that Carrie was essentially like the victim of a cult and that she has since been deprogrammed. And that she now knows that so much of what she believed about her mother wasn't true. That'd be so painful. Mm-hmm. And that's the story of the murder of Michelle Nye Ryder.

Well, I love that he got life in prison without the possibility of parole. Absolutely. Because really, if it had gone to trial. I don't think he would have gotten that. No, because. I mean, maybe he would have gotten that. No, because – I mean maybe he would have. But like – yeah, I mean maybe he would have. Maybe he would have.

But it's still kind of a maybe. Yeah. I think it's a big maybe. I do. Wow. I had never heard that one. No. That's really wild.

I cannot tell you how much I was not expecting the daughter to be involved. Absolutely. Absolutely. I completely believe that she was brainwashed by her father. I think that the sentence she got is actually very fair. I don't think there's a chance that she would have done that because I believe so much that he did. Yeah. He was like a cult leader in his ability to control her. Mm-hmm.

They played like little clips of like different phone calls that he'd had with his daughters. Like, everything I do is for you. You guys are the only thing that matters in my life. I hate that shit. I hate that shit. And so then he comes to his daughter and is like, I have to die. It's me or your mom.

It's me or your mom. Yeah. Yeah. That is just, I just can't even imagine. No. No. Yeah.

Whew. Should we take some questions from our Discord now, ma'am? I think we should, ma'am. To get into our Discord, all you have to do is sign up for our Patreon at the $5 level or higher. That gets you all of our bonus episodes. Plus, you get into our Discord, you chitty chat the day away, and when we're recording we ask you for questions. That's

right! Karaoke Night at Emeril's wants to know, you have to choose an MLM to join. Which one do you choose and why? I love that question. Oh my gosh, which is that question. Oh, my gosh.

Which is the least terrible one? I don't even know. Which one would you join? It's funny because I've got all kinds of ideas. You do? Oh, I know. Pampered Chef. Yeah.

That's what I'd join. See, I feel like, you know, if I had to join one, which I would never join, but if I had to, I'd buy one where – I'd do one where I like the products. I feel like, you know, Mary Kay, I wouldn't be mad about having a whole lot of new makeup in my house. Makeup, absolutely. Pampered Chef. Yeah, go ahead and give me a tool that only does one thing. Absolutely. Sure.

I do need a garlic press, so. How many pairs of leggings do you have? I don't need leggings. Thank you. I certainly don't need leggings with horrible designs all over them. No. This one has the leaning tower. The leaning tower of Pisa that comes right out your crotch.

How about the one where Santa comes right out your butthole? Seen that one? Out your chimney is what you're supposed to say. Oh, I love this one. Okay. Veronica H. says, have you watched the Little Mermaid trailer? Have you seen this? Obviously not.

No, because I'm a grown-ass woman. Hold on, though. Okay. Because I have gone down a very specific version of TikTok where I am now watching reaction videos to the Little Mermaid trailer. No, hold on. Okay. Hold on.

It's amazing. Okay. It sounds amazing. I laugh when I'm in awe of you. I have been crying watching these videos. So the little mermaid Crying or laughing?

No. Oh. So the Little Mermaid in the live action movie is played by a black woman. Yeah. So the Little Mermaid in the live action movie is played by a black woman. Yeah. So the reaction videos are all of these little black girls watching a Disney princess who looks like them. And it is amazing.

Okay. That'd make me cry too. I can't stop watching them. And I cry every time. It is beautiful. So my one bit of exposure to this Disney film is I saw some asshole on Twitter being like, my pale, red-headed girlfriend is so upset because representation matters the other way, too. And someone responded, no one cares about your made-up girlfriend.

Okay, I am personally offended by this question. Day One Comics asked, do you use butter or mayo to make your grilled cheeses? Have you heard of people using mayo for their grilled cheeses? It's a thing people do. I don't understand it

and how dare you? Get out of here fucking mayonnaise. I bet it's pretty good. Would you think about it? Think about it. No, you put it, you know,

you put it just where you'd put the butter. Yeah, I get it. Oh, you understand the concept? I do. Butter, delicious. Mayo, disgusting. Yeah, but if it's like melted in.

You think I'm not going to be able to – I wouldn't know the difference? Do you think that? No, I don't think that necessarily – Should we do that for a bonus video? Would you try it or would you freak out like a big baby watching Little Mermaid TikToks? I'm telling you, tears streaming down my face. No, I think you'd probably be able to taste the difference, but it's like— I taste anything like mayonnaise.

I'm not interested. Thank you. Oh, my God. Everyone, this is what I deal with. Try to pick an appetizer with this woman. I dare you. Mix Fritz wants to know, you win the lottery, but don't tell anyone. How would people find out anyway?

That's such a good question. That is a good question. Okay, people would find out because I suddenly have quite an extensive collection of luxury handbags. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Every time you see me, I've got – I'm fucking Sammy all of a sudden. Each day I've got a new designer bag perfectly coordinated to my outfit.

Okay. Okay. Here's how you would know with me. Uh-huh. I've got a fresh layer of skin. Like, every time you see me, somehow I've got a fresh layer of skin. Uh-huh. My hair is just glossier.

Yeah. For reasons you can't quite tell. When you text me, I don't text back right away, and it's because I'm at the spa. Gosh. But, you know, I'd throw people off because I'd still drive my same old car. So really that's the other thing that people would – I mean, I already drive a car that I love. But I have a – in my mind – You love that Kia Soul.

I love my Kia Soul. It's amazing. My dream car love that Kia Soul. I love my Kia Soul. It's amazing. My dream car is my Kia Soul. But in my mind, if I ever win the lottery... See, I'm too influenced by my SuperSuite 16. How are you, to this day, influenced

by my SuperSuite 16? In my mind, if I ever win the lottery, I buy a Mercedes G-Class. If I ever win the lottery, I buy a Mercedes G-Class. Which got more than my house. Would you also buy a house to go on with it? Or would you just have a crazy nice house?

Okay, holy shit. C.K.UU Charsky says, It's not a question, but I just passed the bar exam. Good job. That's not all, Kristen. Hold on to your shorts. Shout out to Golden Kate Bridge, who also passed. Oh, congratulations.

Am I allowed to say congratulations? Yeah, you can say it. Oh, thank you very much. Your shorts are free to go wherever they want. Please keep them on your body. No, no. Brandi, are you concerned about your bachelorette party? About how things are going to get wild? Get crazy? Get wild?

Gonna take my shorts off? Gonna throw them at you? Hey. Don't take your clothes off. Listen. Could I put more on? You could. That would be wonderful. I would feel great about that. And see, here's the thing that I know about me. It doesn't matter how much liquor I consume.

No amount of clothing will be coming off me. Yeah, I'm not asking for that. I'm fine. I'm telling you, I am going to be wearing jean shorts. My nicest pair of jorts. You're wearing jorts to my bachelorette party? Sure that. I'm fine. I'm telling you, I am going to be wearing jean shorts, my nicest pair of jorts. You're wearing jorts to my bachelorette party? Sure am. My nicest pair.

My nicest, okay? And, whoo! Should we, I just thought of this, should we do the thing where I wear white and then everybody, okay. And I hit the mic? And then all of you bitches who are there supporting me wear black? Yes, Brandy. Should we do that? Everyone, is it okay if we talk about the journey you've been on with your freaking bachelorette party?

Everyone, this bitch. Okay. She starts off and she's like, well, I don't really want much at all. Oh, just nothing much at all. really want much at all. Just nothing much at all. Just a humble night with some Monopoly and some

cheese squares. And I'm like, okay, whatever. Talked shit about you with my mom and my mom's like, yeah, I mean Brandy's fancy. Brandy would like something fancy. I was like, I know, Mom, but she won't admit.

Because what if everybody else doesn't want to do something? Fuck everybody else. It's your bachelorette party and people will enjoy a fancy night. OK, great. And if not, then they can fuck right off politely. Yeah. Keep in mind, this is your family. Yes.

right off politely. Yeah. Keep in mind, this is your family influence. No, so we're, you know, it's not going to be super fancy, but like, yeah, yeah, I, I know how you are with the coordinating outfits. Yeah. Yeah. I will. Yeah.

I'm going to wear. I already, I have a vision of what I'm wearing. Vision and work. Very good, Brandy. Brandy, this question is for you. Too Many Tangents wants to know, why is my hair so fucking frizzy, Brandy? I have very thick, long, fine, lightly wavy hair. It's always been relatively easy to manage and hold style well.

But out of nowhere the last several weeks, this bitch has been frizzy as hell. Tell me why. Backstreet Boys voice. They told me to do that. I mean, without seeing your hair, I have a couple of theories. My question is, are you brushing when wet? I wonder if your frizz is being caused by brush breakage. So I recommend combing when wet or using a wet brush.

That's a branded item meant specifically to brush out wet hair. Brushing with a regular brush when wet will tear and rip tangles, which then results in micro breakage, which then results in frizz. And the other thing is, like, if you just take your regular brush and you wet it, then you've got a wet brush. You do not. It's so helpful. I mean, they didn't ask, but I knew.

I knew that answer for them. Did you see this? Angelica says, why aren't you taking more questions? It's my second favorite part of the episodes. Answer all the questions you host. We will not. Nobody wants to listen to that.

I don't want to listen to that. Okay. Robertina, this is not a question, but my mind is just doing somersaults right now. Just wanted to share that I have an Aunt Peggy and a cousin Peggy Ann, and both have the given name Margaret. My grandfather, Jake, passed away when I was five, and his given name was Seraphim. What? If my name was Seraphim, I'd probably go by Jake, too.

How'd they get to Jake, though? Well, I'm glad you asked, because Robertina says it's a long story, but Jake is not short for Seraphim. My God. Okay, this one, you might not have an answer for this, but Suckworker Cassie wants to know, Brandy, most frustrating phone call you've ever had.

Just starting work at a call center. Shoot, I'm sure I have one. OK, maybe not frustrating, but this is my funniest phone call story. OK, a woman called the salon to make an appointment and she was making an appointment I think for a spray tan and so I was like

putting her in the system to make her an appointment and I was like okay can I get your name and she said it's Sarah and I said is that with an H

and she said no with an S. Are you serious? I was like, are you serious? No one's ever asked you if there's an H? My favorite part is that you were the idiot in that situation. No!

Oh, man. So we all know I really haven't done much customer service in my day. But one time when I was a reporter, gosh, I can't remember if I told this story on the podcast already. But when I was like a new reporter, like maybe a couple days in, a phone call got transferred to me. And it was this woman who was like, hey, are you a reporter? I need you to come down to the food bank, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, oh, my God. And so I start to get my notebook and my pen, and I'm like, okay, what's happening?

And she was like, I am writing a check to the food bank for $50. Extra, extra, read all about it. I mean, it was a... Woman donates $50 to local food bank. You heard it here first, folks. It was a small town newspaper, but it wasn't that small. She was not happy that I wasn't going to be rushing out for that breaking news. Ooh, rub this on your liver spot, wants to know.

Kristen, I'm willing to bet money that I have ADHD after doing some research over the last few weeks. Would you mind sharing what led you to getting tested and how you brought it up to your doctor? I'm trying a new doctor next month, but I'm afraid to ask if I can be tested. I have a history of doctors treating me like I'm a burden to them and dismissing my concerns. So it's really hard for me to ever feel comfortable bringing up new concerns. Boy, are you not alone. Okay. So I'm going to start, you know, rewind it back. So I used to work for a physician's organization. Oh, the irony. I've always been afraid of doctors. But one of the things that I learned is like, oh, that's why doctors seem so weird sometimes when you're at an appointment and they ask if you have any other concerns and you actually bring up another concern. You know, maybe it's not that they're being an asshole to you. It's that they're like, how am I going to get paid for this? So my first suggestion is to make an appointment specifically to talk about ADHD.

That at least, I mean, boy, America is such a wonderful country with our healthcare system. But I mean, I feel like that's, that really helps to just go in saying, this is what I want to talk about. And for how I figured it out, TikTok helped. I can't remember if I've talked about this on the podcast. Oh, well, I'll just say it. You know, I learned through random TikTok videos about the differences between how ADHD presents in boys versus how it presents in girls. And I had no idea that there was a difference. Yeah. And one of the things I learned was that like with little girls, idea that there was a difference. Yeah. And one of the things I learned was that like with little girls, you can sometimes or always

go off into a total dreamland of your own making. And you can be sitting there in your chair in school looking like you're paying attention, la-di-da, but really you are in la-la land, which is totally me. Yeah. And always was me. Yeah. In addition to a whole bunch of other things. Yeah.

But yeah, I saw those TikToks and I was like, oh my gosh, wow, maybe I had ADHD back in the day. But then I thought nothing of it because it's like, well, what am I going to do with that now? Right. But then someone in the Discord said, hey, Kristen, you know, we're all talking about, you know, your little quirk of having multiple beverages around you at all times. Just so you know, that's an ADHD thing.

I was like, what the hell? I've been wondering if I might have it. And I really appreciate the people in the Discord were so nice because no one was like, hey, bitch. But a lot of people were like, oh, hey, I have it, too. And, you know, here's some resources, blah, blah, blah, blah, bitch. Right. But a lot of people were like, oh, hey, I have it too. And, you know, here's some resources, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So the more I read about it, the more I was like, holy shit, I've got ADHD. So I made an appointment to talk to my doctor and, you know, got the ball rolling from there. But, yeah, I mean, if you look into it and you think you have it, I would definitely say talk to your doctor about it because the medication has been super helpful for me.

Like upsettingly helpful. Yeah, that's amazing. Like, oh, I could have. I could have functioned at a different level my whole life. for me was like with a lot of women with ADHD, it manifests as perfectionism and always feeling like you're failing all the time because you've got this to-do list a mile long and everything is somehow equally important. And you're smart enough to know that that's not logically true. Everything can't be equally important, but it feels that way. And so you can have a full day and accomplish a ton, but because you didn't accomplish everything on the list, you're a failure and you suck and you'll probably go to hell.

Yeah. Anyway, if this sounds like you, talk to your doctor. There's a question for you lazy lesbianism in Tuscan potatoes asks Kristen since you said the word cooter in today's episode I'm finally going to ask something I've been wondering

did you know there's a town in Missouri called cooter I've only heard of it because I used to be related by marriage to someone who lived there how proud does it make you to know your state thought cooter was a good town Really? I've only heard of it because I used to be related by marriage to someone who lived there. How proud does it make you to know your state thought Cooter was a good town name? Oh, I'm often proud of Missouri, and today is no exception.

One of my grandmother's best friends growing up was named Cooter Bill, and across the street from him was Clara Bell. And my sister and I still laugh about that to this day. Okay, here we go. Long-term friend wants to know, what's the Midwestern thinking on the queen dying? Big deal or just another old lady who died? It's a massive deal here in Canada where we have a federal holiday on Monday for the funeral. Okay. You got a hot take on Monday for the funeral. Okay.

You got a hot take on this? I know. No, it's not a hot take. It's one of those like conflicted takes where like, you know, obviously a lot of people are talking about colonialism and making really valid points. And yes, yes, yes. I say to that. But at the same time, I'm fucking obsessed with the royals

like yeah yeah I know but at the same time like when a new season of the crown comes out I'm just gonna go nuts watching that and like I don't know I've watched you've watched a lot of coverage of the yeah and I I'm more invested than I want to be it's kind of like my thing with reality TV I know it's bad I know it's bad very problematic yeah I think a lot of people feel

that way don't they it's a pretty common feeling okay well maybe it's just because I'm consuming too much internet but it really feels like you're either so devastated the queen has died or you're like, fuck her. Fuck the queen. Yeah. And I'm just – Yeah.

Yeah. All right. Yeah. I mean I read the news alert when it happened and I've seen some coverage stuff, but I'm not like real into it or anything. Yeah, me neither. I'm also very cool. Have you seen King Charles's hands? Yeah, what's the deal with that?

I don't know. Inbreeding? I mean, what are – Well, for real. I mean, those fingers. He was suffering from some kind of medical condition. Oh, I'm an asshole. He's got like gout or something.

I don't know, but those are some fingies. Yeah, don't they look swollen and painful? Yeah. Yeah, I bet he has gout or something. Okay. Wasn't that referred to as the King's disease for a while back then? Was it? Yeah, because only rich dudes got it, I thought.

Well, here, story checks out. Does it? I don't really know what I'm talking about, okay. Well, here, story checks out. Does it? I don't really know what I'm talking about. What do you think, King Charles? What do you think? What do I think of him? Yeah. I don't know.

I don't think of him. You are completely unprepared for this conversation. I am just not that into the royals. Okay. Can't city royals I could talk to you about all day long. I would rather not. I'd die of boredom. Do you think the monarchy should continue?

Yeah, I... Oh, my God. I can just tell. I can just tell by the... All right. Well, this has been really fun. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. I like the hats. You don't know shit about those hats. I love the hats. Okay. I did hair for a wedding this summer for an English bride, and her mother wore a big hat. I had to style her hair around this big hat. I fucking loved it.

Okay, great. Well, that really doesn't have much to do with the topic at hand today. You know, this is kind of like when I want to talk to you about reality TV stuff, and you're just like, I don't know. Yeah, and it's kind of like when I want to talk to you about how awesome the Chiefs are doing. Oh my God. You can talk to anybody

about that. Or about like the 1975's new album. Let's talk about it. How do you like it? Oh my gosh. It just came out and I really like it.

Uh-huh. You want to go to the concert with me on December 8th? Sure. Absolutely. See, look at me talking about it. I'll talk to you about the Chiefs. They won on Sunday.

They sure did. They looked amazing. They looked really good. They looked really, really good. Yeah. All right. I'll talk to you about the fucking Royals. So what do you think about all the title changes?

So Camilla, she's now Queen consort, which sounds like an insult. You know what? I feel like this is a pity conversation. And I'm kind of offended. But I will say. You can't even help yourself. I can't help myself. You can't even help yourself.

I can't help myself. King Charles, he's just, he does not possess much charm. Yeah, I could agree with that. When he went to that little desk. He was annoyed with the stuff in his way. Yeah, maybe it has something to do with those fingies. Okay, but you have to understand that you are being watched. And so maybe you're going to look like an old man brat when you turn to the employees like, Ugh, please pick this up.

You know? I don't know the source of his finger ailments, so I am not ready to pass judgment about his maybe inability to grip the little inky blotter thingy. Okay. Let me show you how you do it. Okay. Let me show you how you do it. Okay. Everyone, I just did a perfect. It was a very polite. You did. You did a very polite motion to have somebody move it the fuck out of your way.

Am I royalty to you? You are the queen of podcasting. And the queen of campers. And you're the queen consort. Oh, that sounds like an insult. Should we do some Supreme Court inductions? I believe we shall. I don't even have the document up.

No, and look at me. I'm right here on the right episode and everything. Oh, no, I just opened the wrong document. Great. So many problems. Tell them all about this. Yeah, to get inducted on this podcast, all you have to do is join our Patreon at the $7 level or higher, and that will then read your name. Oh, words are hard. And your favorite something. Right now we're on cookies.

We could mix it up anytime. It's hard to know, folks. We will mix it up because we have gotten complaints. So if you're holding off. I mean, I'm not going to lie. That feels like a weird thing to complain about, but all right. No. These are the pressing things.

What episode are we on? We're on episode 228, my dear. My dear. Oh, there's your little pink Kristen. Is that right? Are we on episode 228? You say you don't want me to take my jorts off, but then you're so excited every time you see my little pink Kristen. So these are real mixed signals.

Jennifer Pagani. Chocolate chip cookie dough. Erin Bailey. Chocolate chip with sea salt. Katie Barfield. Homemade s'mores cookie bars. Ann Belanger. Chocolate chip.

Lulu Jaime Hernandez. Tate's Bake Shop's tiny chocolate chip cookies hold the racism. Uh-oh. Oh, no. Uh-oh. But yes, please do hold the racism. Tracy Ladd. Salted caramel chocolate chunk cookies from Arby's.

That's, I didn't even know that existed. Okay. Maybe we need to go to Arby's. Julie Bowley. Millionaire shortbread cookies. Linda Est't think they existed. Okay. Maybe we need to go to Arby's. Julie Bowley. Millionaire shortbread cookies. Linda Estrada. Gingerbread. I literally had to physically stop myself from calling her Linda Estrada gingerbread.

There was a hyphen. Yeah. Lexi Harville. Lemon Ups Girl Scout cookies. Lemon Ups. Is thaties. Lemon Ups? Is that a thing? I thought they were called lemonades. I don't know.

Lexi, we've got questions. We sure do. Harper No Harping. Ranger Cookies. Allie Bauer. Sadly, not a cookie fan. More into salty snacks. Allie.

Allie. Oh, no. Kylie. The kind my cat is making when she's kneading the duvet. We call those muffins in my house. Making muffins. Mm-hmm. Which is weird because you don't knead muffin dough.

That is weird. But you also don't knead cookies. Cookies, no. You don't. Interesting. I guess it'd be weird to say making bread. Making bread. No, that's what you should say.

She's over there making bread. That's cute. Anyway, thank you for coming to my TED Talk. Anne-Marie Gerhardt. Proofs mocha chocolate moonshine alcoholic ice cream. That's not a cookie, Anne-Marie. She says she doesn't care much for cookies. She just said, fuck the rules.

I do what I want. People are getting so fed up. We've got a mutiny. Yeah. Molly Larson. Monster Cookie. Jessica Ake. Frosted Sugar Cookie.

Cindy Smith. Samoas. Abby. Snickerdoodles. Clara Storr. What the hell? I don't like cookies. The next best thing is my mom's homemade German chocolate caramel brownies.

Boy, yeah, we're going to have to change this topic. Welcome to the Supreme Court! Mom's homemade German chocolate caramel brownies. Boy, yeah, we're going to have to change this topic. Welcome to the Supreme Court! Y'all, have you ever tried cookies? Yeah. Don't like cookies. Don't like cookies. Maybe you're eating the wrong cookies.

I like how we're now insulting and getting mad at people who are supporting us. Thank you, everyone, for all of your support. We appreciate it so much. If you're looking for other ways to support us, please find us on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter. Kristen, you just sniffed your armpit. Yeah, and you didn't have to say that out loud. It could have just been a secret between you and me.

Patreon. No, if you could have done just like a little, you know, but no, you had to do like a very dramatic, like you lifted your whole arm. Anyway. Sometimes I like to test your professionalism. Please remember to subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen and then head on over to Apple Podcasts and leave us a five-star rating and review. And then be sure to join us next week. When we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned! And now for a note about our process.

I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. I got my info from the article The Mystery of the San Antonio Four by Maurice Chama for The Texas Observer, the documentary Southwest of Salem the San Antonio Four by Maurice Chama for The Texas Observer. The documentary Southwest of Salem. Reporting by Bridget Dunlap for Rolling Stone. Plus reporting in Vice, Slate, and CNN.

I got my info from an episode of 48 Hours, an episode of Mastermind of Murder, and articles for the Star Gazette. For a full list of our sources, visit lgtcpodcast.com. Any errors are, of course, ours, but please don't take our word for it. Go. Read. They're stiff. My God, did you just sniff your armpit? No, I would never.