Let's Go To Court! - 229: The Murders of Savanna LaFontaine-Greywind & Rachel Hoffman

Episode Date: September 28, 2022

Savanna Lafontaine-Greywind had no reason to suspect her neighbor, Brooke Crews, was up to something. Brooke claimed she just needed a quick favor. Would Savanna come upstairs and try on a dress she��d been making? Savanna was eight months pregnant and about to sit down to dinner, but she told Brooke she’d help her out. It was the last thing she ever did. Then Kristin tells us a story that illustrates the dangers of becoming a confidential informant. When police discovered marijuana and ecstasy in 23-year-old Rachel Hoffman’s apartment, they leveled with her. She could go to prison for up to four years. Or she could become a confidential informant. Rachel chose the latter and soon found herself at the center of a very dangerous drug bust. And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: “The Throwaways,” by Sarah Stillman for The New Yorker “Rachel’s timeline,” The Rachel Morningstar Foundation “Botched sting: killed with the gun she was supposed to buy,” by Brian Ross and Vic Walter for ABC News “Hoffman’s attorneys release statement critical of TPD,” Tallahassee Democrat “Lieutenant who OK’d Hoffman drug buy has ‘sustained’ investigation on record,” by Corey Clark for the Tallahassee Democrat “City commission approves $2.6M deal with parents of slain police confidential informant Rachel Hoffman,” by Jennifer Portman for the Tallahassee Democrat “Lance Block bio,” lanceblocklaw.com “A decade later, Rachel Hoffman’s tragic death helps make police informants safer,” by Jennifer Portman and Karl Etters for the Tallahassee Democrat “Transcripts released in Hoffman investigation,” by Nic Corbett and Jennifer Portman for the Tallahassee Democrat “TPD: We shouldn’t have blamed Rachel Hoffman,” by Jennifer Portman for the Tallahassee Democrat “Parents stand behind son on trial for murder,” by Donna Koehn for the Tampa Tribune “Murder-trial testimony begins,” by Jennifer Portman for the Tallahassee Democrat “Shooters frantic, testimony alleges,” by Donna Koehn for the Tampa Tribune “Bradshaw seen buying bleach, witness says,” by Jennifer Portman for the Tallahassee Democrat “Expert: Hoffman killed in her car,” by Jennifer Portman for the Tallahassee Democrat “State rests in murder trial,” by Jennifer Portman for the Tallahassee Democrat “Closing arguments today in murder trial,” by Jennifer Portman for the Tallahassee Democrat “Murder case stymies jurors,” by John Frank for the Miami Herald In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “A Killer Upstairs” episode Killer Motive “Fargo woman lured pregnant neighbor to her apartment, killed her and took her unborn baby” by Kyle Swenson, Washington Post “Pregnant Woman's Killer Cut Out Her Baby with Small Blade Then Smuggled Her Body Out in a Dresser” by KC Baker, people.com “Man Found Not Guilty After Girlfriend Lured Pregnant Neighbor to Their Apartment and Cut Out Her Baby” by KC Baker, people.com “Slain Mom’s ‘Miracle Child’ — Who Was Cut From Her Belly — Thrives 2 Years Later” by Daniel Egitto, oxygen.com “State Supreme Court Tosses Life Sentence For Man Whose Girlfriend Cut Baby From Neighbor’s Womb” by Dorian Geiger, oxygen.com “Man acquitted in pregnant woman’s slaying in North Dakota” by Dave Kolpack, Associated Press “North Dakota court overturns life term in cut from womb case” by Dave Kolpack, Associated Press “North Dakota v. Hoehn” justia.com YOU’RE STILL READING? My, my, my, you skeezy scunch! You must be hungry for more! We’d offer you some sausage brunch, but that gets messy. So how about you head over to our Patreon instead? (patreon.com/lgtcpodcast). At the $5 level, you’ll get 35+ full length bonus episodes, plus access to our 90’s style chat room!  

One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court. On this episode, I'll be talking about the murder of Rachel Hoffman. And I'll be talking about the murder of Savannah LaFontaine Graywind.

I can just, yeah. A lot of murder on this episode. wind. I can just, yeah. A lot of murder on this episode. Did you do like another horrible one that someone suggested? Like, wow, this is really a brandy case. It's for sure a brandy case. No, no one suggested this. Oh, no one wanted it. And yet here you are. Everyone, hello and welcome. Welcome to this week's episode of Let's Go. What if we started all of our podcasts like that? Welcome to this week's episode. Well, I mean, we have an intro.

In a way, we started that way. No, but we did the intro, and then we would have to do that part. Would we have pipes? We'd have to say it like old ladies. Or old men. Let's say it like old men. While we're smoking our pipes in our tweed jackets. Are we old white men from the Midwest in this scenario?

Obviously. Okay, here we go. Here we go. The problem is no one wants to work anymore. Okay? They, them, he, she, I can't keep it straight. Okay. They, them, he, she, I can't keep it straight.

In my day, we just said sir and everyone felt great about it. Anyway, that's what the rest of this podcast is going to be like. So if you enjoyed that, stick around. Pops. By the way, I can barely see you because we've got this box of cards in front of us. Let me move all of your autographs. What's that? My autographs?

Oh, my gosh. What a perfect transition to talk about our Patreon. Yeah, how do you get one of those? Well, I'm so glad you asked, person who's driving in their car. As opposed to somebody driving in their scooter. Listen, we don't make rules on how people listen to the podcast. If you would like more of this, and I'm sure you do, sign up at our Patreon. On our Patreon, at our Patreon. For our Patreon.

Sign up for our Patreon you got bonus episodes on there you get zoom calls with us where we play little games reindeer games

are in the holidays I had the perfect thought of what we should play next time and it's escaped me now

Mad Libs oh you know what when Kyla and I were little it was like adverb poopily

noun poop yes adjective poopy you know so like that's the energy I'm gonna bring to the game when Kyla and I were little, it was like adverb, poopily. Now, poop. Adjective, poopy. So that's the energy I'm going to bring to my game. Do you think we should play Mad Libs next month? Absolutely, yes. Anyway, that's where you go to support the show. Yeah, and if you sign up at the $7 level

or higher, you get Kristen's autograph. Also, Brandy's, you know. I mean, not that anyone has ever been interested in that. When did you find out that I just went home and listed these puppies on eBay? I mean,

I would feel like the joke would be on you because the time it would take you to do that and then you've just got a box of my autograph that no one wants to buy from you? Yeah, if you're looking for me to be mad, I would not be mad. What if I find out they sell really good

and next week I've got a whole nother box for you to sign? Oh, then we'd have problems. And I'd get my dad on the horn. I'd be like, Dad, these things are worth money. He'd be selling them on Facebook Marketplace. He would be. Anyway, you have a terrible

story to tell you, so let's just jump right in. Okay. I watched a new show. Oh, God. Some ID show? No, it was an oxygen show. Okay. What watched a new show. Oh, God. Some ID show? No, it was an oxygen show. Okay. What do we got? It's called Killer Motive.

I'd never watched it before. It's pretty good. Okay. There's lots of family members involved. I thought it was done very well. Okay. Zero reenactments. Oh, that's refreshing.

Yes. Okay. Yes. So shout out to that show. Shout out to the Washington Post. How did you know what was happening, though, without a reenactment? Because they just told me. There's lots of B-roll of like the environment that it took place in.

Okay. So you just barely managed to put it together. All right. And also shout out to some reporting for People Magazine. Some really good detailed coverage of this case. This is terrible. So just prepare yourself. Thanks a lot.

You're welcome. Savannah LaFontaine Graywind was just starting out in life. Savannah was an indigenous woman, a member of the Spirit Lake tribe. of the Spirit Lake tribe. And I believe this was a little bit difficult to confirm, but I believe she lived on the reservation in East Central North Dakota until like 2016 when she and her family moved to Fargo, North Dakota. Savannah was the oldest daughter of Joe and Norberta Graywind. Norberta?

Norberta. No, that's too bad. That's too bad. It is too bad. Okay. She was interviewed extensively. She's a wonderful woman. I enjoyed listening to her tell the story of her daughter very much. No one's saying she's a bad person. Norberta is a rough name.

That's a classic. We couldn't decide where to go with this. It is. It is. So Joe and Norberta had, I'm sorry. Norman was her dad's name. Roberta was her mom's name. And they put them together and made Norberta. A hundred percent.

If I'm wrong, then I will eat my hat. Who came up with that phrase? I don't know. Anyway, I'm solid. I'm sorry. I'm solid. I'm solid. And also, I'm sorry. I'm solid. I'm solid. And also, I'm sorry.

I feel like I'm stalling because this is going to be a terrible story. It's going to be bad. Great. So by 2016, Savannah was ready to get settled into a career. She had a passion for elder care with dreams of becoming a nurse. And her family thought there would be better job opportunities for her and eventually for her siblings too in Fargo. So the whole family moved to a basement apartment in Fargo, North Dakota.

By August of 2017, Savannah was thriving. She was 22 years old. She had landed a job as a nursing assistant at an elder care facility. She was eight months pregnant with her first child, and she had just signed a lease on an apartment with her boyfriend. She and her boyfriend, Ashton Matheny, had been together for like seven years. Oh, wow. About to move into their apartment. They were starting their lives together in their own place, their own little family.

I'm sorry. Can you imagine doing elder care and being eight months pregnant at the same time? No. Oh, my God. That'd be terrible. Okay. Anyway, continue. But on August 19th, 2017, that was all taken from her.

It started with a knock on the door that August afternoon. Savannah opened the door to find her neighbor, Brooke Cruz, standing there. Savannah didn't know Brooke very well. She lived on the third floor of her apartment building with her boyfriend, William Hain. And like the whole building knew their relationship was rocky. Everyone could hear them fighting regularly. Police were sometimes involved. It was rough.

Brooke asked Savannah if she was free for a few minutes to help her with a project. She said she was making a dress and she was hoping that Savannah could come up for a couple minutes just to try it on so she could get, like, a picture of it. Yeah. And she offered her $ up for a couple minutes just to try it on so she could get like a picture of it. Yeah. And she offered her $20 for the trouble. Hold on. Were they roughly the same size? Like was she pregnant too? I don't know the answer to that.

Okay. I don't know that she was making the dress for herself. Okay. I don't know the details. Am I getting caught on the wrong thing? Maybe. All right. Savannah had just

ordered pizza she'd like had literally just had a pizza delivered it was cooling on the counter but brooke was like this will literally just take a couple minutes and you can make 20 bucks and so like around 1 30 on that saturday afternoon savannah texts her mom and her boyfriend ashton to let them know that she was going to Brooke's apartment, and then she headed upstairs. When Norberta got the text from Savannah that she was helping Brooke with a project, she was less than pleased. Just a few days earlier, Brooke had come down to the apartment

and invited Savannah up to smoke weed with her. Savannah had declined, but Norberta was unimpressed with the invitation, to say the least. Norberta responded to Savannah's text, but never heard anything back. That was super unusual. Savannah always responded really quickly to text messages. So Norberta continued to text Savannah over the next couple of hours, but Savannah didn't respond. Savannah's boyfriend Ashton also spent the next couple of hours

texting Savannah with no response. By four o'clock that afternoon, Savannah's family was officially worried. She was supposed to take her brother to work, but she never showed up. And so her mom had taken her. And then when she got back, she noticed that the pizza was still on the counter, completely untouched. That Savannah's purse was sitting on the kitchen counter as well. And that her car was parked in its usual parking spot. And so Norberto walked up to Brooke Crew's third-floor apartment and knocked on the door. When Brooke answered, Norberta asked if Savannah was still there,

and Brooke was like, no, she left like at like 2.45. Immediately, Norberta knew something was off. Savannah's feet were super swollen from her pregnancy. They were really uncomfortable and painful. If she had gone anywhere, first of all, she would have taken her purse and she would have driven. She would not be walking anywhere with her feet as swollen as they were. So, Norberta went back down to her apartment and she was literally back in her apartment for minutes before she was like, that's it. I can't take it.

I'm calling the police. So she called the police and reported Savannah missing. Police arrived at the Gray Wind apartment around five o'clock that evening. They got a statement from Norberta and from Joe, Savannah's dad. He had also gone up and knocked on the apartment door at one point. And Brooke had answered and said that they weren't quite done yet. This was maybe, I don't know, sometime in the part where they were trying to get a hold of Savannah. And so they get all the statements from the family. And then the police went up and knocked on the door of that third floor apartment.

Brandy, is this one of those steal someone's baby stories? Is it? Oh, no. So the police go up. They knock on the third floor apartment, and Brooke came to the door, and her boyfriend, William Hain, was there, and they let the police come in and take a look around, and the responding officer saw nothing of note.

They said, you know, she'd left, Savannah had been there that day, but she'd left at like 2.45 and that was that. Later that night, when Savannah still wasn't home, the police came back out and searched through Brooke Cruz and William Haynes apartment again. But again, they found nothing of note. And again, Brooke told the story that yes, Savannah had been there, but she left at 2.45. The following day, there was still no sign of Savannah. And so police came back and knocked again on Brooke and William's apartment door, and they allowed them in again and again they searched the apartment and found nothing there was nothing to indicate that

a crime had occurred there there was nothing like nothing looked out of place nothing looked freshly cleaned it just looked like a regular apartment the police had no reason to think that brooke cruz was telling anything but the truth about when savannah had been there and how she'd left the apartment previous day but brooke cruz was admittedly the last person who had seen savannah and she and william were really the only suspects that the police had in Savannah's disappearance, which at this point they weren't even sure was anything criminal. Right. She was just missing.

So while the community and the Gray Winds tribe members came out in droves to start this search for Savannah, the police watched Brooke Cruz and William Hain pretty closely. They were hoping maybe they would lead them to Savannah, but no such luck. At some point, Brooke's boyfriend, Ashton, went on the news and made a statement about how she wouldn't just leave. Yeah. Like, she just wouldn't. They were super excited about the stage of life that they were in.

Like, something happened to her. Following that news appearance, a bunch of tips started coming in. People were claiming that they were sighting Savannah all over the area. But one tip came in that seemed to be kind of helpful. Someone said that they had seen a pickup truck in the parking lot of the apartment complex the day that Savannah went missing. And that tipster said that they saw Savannah getting in that truck. And so police searched the parking lot and they did end up finding a red truck matching the tipster's description.

And they were actually able to track that truck back to William Hain, the boyfriend of Brooke Cruz. So they brought William in for a formal interview and he said that he'd borrowed that truck from the roofing company that he worked for, but he hadn't even borrowed it until after Savannah was missing. So there was no chance that anyone saw Savannah getting in that truck. He was super cooperative, willing to talk. He was very calm, very relaxed. And he said that he did come home from work the afternoon of August 19th to find Savannah in his apartment with Brooke. Brooke had introduced the two. She was like, oh, hey, this is Savannah. She lives in the basement apartment. And William had said hello, but he

was just getting off work. And so he'd gone in to take a shower. And he said by the time he got out of the shower, Savannah was gone. Police believe his version of events. It seemed to match with what they'd seen in the apartment, like, you know, whatever. They'd already searched that apartment three times by this point and had found nothing. And so they let William Hayne leave that day and they thanked him for his time. They did, however, call his boss to verify that he had borrowed that truck

and more specifically to verify that he had borrowed it after Savannah's disappearance. Right. And they were able to confirm William's story. He had borrowed the truck. His boss verified that and he hadn't borrowed it until after Savannah was missing. However, his boss offered up an interesting little nugget of information. something to the effect of, yeah, you know, I just wanted to help the guy out, just make things easier for them. They've got that new baby at home. Oh, no.

Yep. There we go. Yep. The investigators could not believe what they were hearing. They'd been in that apartment multiple times. They'd seen no sign of a new baby there. Obviously, Brooke and William hadn't said anything about having a new baby at home. This was enough for them to secure a search warrant for the third

floor apartment. So, okay, so worth noting here, the previous searches of the apartment had been done without a warrant. They were just under the consent of Brooke Cruz and William Payne. And so they'd just been kind of like cursory searches, just kind of surface level searches. But on August 24th, detectives performed a fourth search of the apartment, this time with a search warrant. And initially, they didn't find much. They walked through the apartment, a detective like walked into the bedroom and like literally looked around and then was getting ready to turn to walk out of the bedroom

when something caught the corner of his eye. And he turned and he looked at the bed and there at the head of the bed nestled between the pillows was a newborn baby girl. What? Yeah. Just laying on the bed.

He hadn't noticed? So the way I'm picturing this— I am very unimpressed with these searches. Okay, so the way I'm picturing this is they've got, like, the bed made, right? Yes. You've got your pillows on it. I'm picturing throw pillows they've got, like, the bed made, right? Yes. You've got your pillows on it. I'm picturing throw pillows. And then kind of tucked in between the throw pillows is a baby.

Yeah, I mean, that's what everyone's picturing. Yeah. But you're a detective. You're just searching. Yes. Yes. This is the first search that was done with a search warrant. But, yeah, I don't.

This baby was pregnant. You're really bending a search warrant. But, yeah, I don't. This baby was— You're really bending over backwards for these people, Brandi. I don't understand how they didn't find this baby. No kidding. Before this moment. Well, I think I do, and it's because a detective walked through a bedroom, literally didn't notice a baby on the bed. Yeah, but haven't you seen that episode of Full House? Do you know what episode I'm going to tell you about?

No, I don't. Where Michelle doesn't want the dog to go home after the birthday party. Oh, she hides the dog. In the stuffed animals. But did a detective come searching for the dog or did Danny Tanner? You know, it's hard to say. Danny Tanner was an investigator in his own way.

If I recall, Michelle was caught. Yeah, she was. Yeah. On the fourth search, if I'm not mistaken. Yeah, I know. So obviously the baby was taken in for a welfare check and a DNA test, and Brooke Cruz was arrested on the spot. William Hayne was at work at the time. How'd they find her?

Yeah, no kidding. She turns out was just standing right there in the apartment. Wow. They almost missed her. So on the fifth search, they came back. So on the fifth search, they came back. Miraculously, this little baby girl was healthy. She was just under five pounds.

Oh, wow. And a DNA test would confirm that the baby girl was the daughter of Savannah LaFontaine Greywind and Ashton Matheny. That DNA test took like three weeks, and they wouldn't put the baby in the care of the family until they had her identity confirmed by DNA. Are you serious? Yeah. I mean, I get that you want it all confirmed, but man, they couldn't do a rush test? Yeah. So finally, after the DNA test comes back, after three weeks, the baby girl was handed over to Ashton, and he named her Haisley Jo, the name Savannah had wanted.

Jo was in honor of her dad. After the discovery of this little baby girl, though, there was still no sign of Savannah. The search effort really ramped up at this point. The police asked people to search their property, their outbuildings, their fields. Joe and Norberta admitted that after the discovery of Haisley Joe, they knew that the chances of finding Savannah alive were like zero. And Brooke and William weren't helping. Initially, Brooke told detectives that when Savannah was at her apartment that day, she'd asked Brooke for tips on how to induce her pregnancy naturally. And Brooke had told her how to break her own water.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I'm sure. And Brooke had told her how to break her own water. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I'm sure. Did she not see that episode about Full House where they learn not to lie? I guess not. I guess she didn't see that one, Kristen.

This could have all been solved. Yeah. So easily. Uh-huh. Was that the lying police? Oh, no, that was the politeness police with the little badge. Michelle slams it down on the table and she says, I'm done being polite. You know, the one that I can't stop thinking of for some reason is when they all join the gym. That's the one that teaches you about eating disorders, Kristen.

Oh, that's right. Because DJ just wants to be thin for the pool party, and she's got those chipmunk cheeks, and so she's eating frozen water on popsicle sticks. That's right. And she passes out at the gym. Someone really committed all of it to memory. I've seen a couple of episodes of Full House. Yeah.

Haven't we all? Except for like the cool, hot, young people. Shut up. No one likes you. Whatever. So Brooke told the police that Savannah had told her she was over being pregnant. Her feet were swollen. It was painful. And so Brooke

had given her that really neat advice that day on how to break her own water and that savannah had left and she'd given birth and then returned yeah with the baby all right which she gave to brooke and said that she didn't want it yeah okay are you fucking kidding me nobody Nobody is believing that story, Brooke. I mean, I don't know. Three days after the discovery. They walked through her house three times and didn't see it. So I honestly, I feel pretty confident too.

I'd be like a unicorn. I can tell these dipshits anything. Yeah. For real. Right. It's like playing hide and seek with a three-year-old. Yeah. No, I think a three-year-old would see the baby. Yeah. For real. Right. It's like playing hide and seek with a three-year-old. Yeah. No, I think a three-year-old would see the baby. Probably. Yeah. Three days after the discovery of the baby, though, and eight days after she'd been reported missing, kayakers found Savannah LaFontaine Greywind in the Red River. She was wrapped in plastic trash bags and her body told the real story of what had happened

to her. With that irrefutable evidence, Brooke Cruz would later change her story. After the discovery of Savannah's body, she told them probably what's pretty close to the truth. She said that she lured Savannah to her apartment that day with the express purpose of stealing her baby. She told them that she cornered Savannah in the bathroom like right after they got into the apartment, that she pushed Savannah down and Savannah hit her head on the sink and was then kind of in and out of consciousness as Brooke used a box cutter.

Oh, my God. To cut Savannah's baby from her womb. Oh, my God. that William had come home sometime in the middle of this whole thing and that he had helped her kill Savannah, clean up the scene and dispose of the body. When William Hain was arrested and subsequently interrogated, he told investigators a little different version of this story. He said that he had arrived home from work that day and that Brooke handed him a newborn baby girl and said, this is our baby. This is our family. And initially, William Haynes said he believed that Brooke had given birth because she had told him she was pregnant. Oh, boy. There's one major problem with this version. Brooke Cruz

could not have any more children. Brooke had undergone a tubal ligation following the birth of her seventh child. Did he know that? Yes, he did know that. But is she just saying it's a miracle? No. So she had told him that she had had that reversed. OK. It's a whole thing. We'll get. OK. All right. So Brooke had seven children that she did not have contact with. The father of one of those children was interviewed on this Oxygen show that I watched, Killer Motive.

And he said that Brooke loved babies. But once the children were no longer babies, she had no interest in them. And that she had abandoned all seven of her children. By doing what? Just leaving. Oh, wow. Yeah. O wow. Yeah.

Oof. Yeah. So in late 2016, there was an incident between William and Brooke where they got in this big fight and William left her. And then to get him back, she told him that she'd had her tubal ligation reversed and that she was pregnant with his child. And it had accomplished what she'd wanted it to. He came back to her. And according to William, he believed that she was pregnant. Well, yeah, I mean, that'd be a wild thing to lie about.

And you heard it here first. I mean, a fake pregnancy will solve all your problems. It will not. Anytime I'm in a jam, I'm just like, I'm pregnant. So then when William came home on August 19th and Brooke handed him a baby and said, this is our baby. For a moment, he believed that it was really their baby. But then Brooke asked for his help. She took him to the bathroom where Savannah lay dead, according to William, or dying, according to Brooke. And she asked him to help her clean everything up.

Oh, my God. So William told investigators that he'd done just that. He went into CYA mode. No. Cover your ass. Yeah, I understand what CYA means, but if what he's saying is true, that he's really not involved, you say, oh, my gosh, may I see our beautiful baby? Oh, let me hold it. And then you get the fuck out of there and call the police.

With the baby. Yeah. He said that he'd cleaned up the blood, disposed of blood-soaked towels and clothes in a dumpster away from the apartment complex, and then he'd wrapped Savannah's body in trash bags. Her body had been stuffed inside the bathroom closet during all three of those searches of the apartment. Yeah, that doesn't shock me a bit. They missed a fucking baby. Of course they missed a body.

They said that during those searches the baby was concealed under piles of blankets on the bed. I don't care. Yeah. I don't care. You're there to investigate a crime. Yeah. You're not opening every closet door. How do you not open a closet

door? I mean, what they, so the explanation they give for this on this show that i watched on oxygen is that they didn't have a search warrant they had to basically do it at the rules of the occupants of the apartment and so i don't know if they specifically said yeah but don't open any closet doors but okay here's what you could do. If I'm trying to do a nicey nice search. Yeah. I start searching your place. But really what I'm doing is mostly watching your reaction. Absolutely. And if you get real fucking sweaty McNervous. Yeah. When I'm in the bathroom by the closet. Yeah. Then I go I go and I get a search warrant or something. I don't know. You couldn't open the closet door and see a big trash bag? Yeah.

Here's why part of me isn't convinced that William was not in on it the entire time. What? the entire time. What? They had such a tight window to get this crime scene cleaned up and this body hidden somewhere. So there was no fucking freak out time in there for William Hayne

when he gets home and sees what Brooke has done. Okay. Think about this timeline. Savannah goes into the apartment at 1.30. The police are there doing their first search by 5 p.m. Mm-hmm.

cut her baby out of her and completely cleaned up the bathroom and wrapped her body up and gotten it in the closet in such a way that the police come in and don't see that a crime scene has been cleaned up in a bathroom. So you and I disagree on one key point. OK. OK. You're assuming that the bathroom was cleaned up to the point that an investigator couldn't see that a crime had recently been committed there. I don't fucking buy it. Yeah. I think they probably cleaned it as quickly and best they could in the circumstances. the circumstances yeah but if the police had really been looking as hard as they should have been yeah they probably should have seen something yeah i mean they should have seen something how did they not see something that's what i'm saying yeah yeah i mean that makes sense thank you i'm a genius so following the third search of the apartment, before the police ever got the search warrant, William had hollowed out a dresser. Oh, my God. And he put Savannah's body inside of it.

Oh, my God. And then they'd carried it down to their Jeep, loaded it in the back, and they'd driven out to a bridge that ran over the Red River and they dumped the dresser into the river. Yeah. Did anyone see them hauling this dresser? No. Wow. I think they did do it like in the middle of the night, but still you're talking about an apartment complex, people coming and going.

Well, and that would be even sketchier to see someone in the middle of the night. But still, you're talking about an apartment complex, people coming and going. Well, and that would be even sketchier to see someone in the middle of the night. Yeah. Carrying a dresser out. Yeah. No better time to move furniture, I say. That's right. So the big legal question in this case would come down to who killed Savannah, Brooke or William? You sounded just like an owl.

Thank you. It's really cool. Do you want a Tootsie Pop? Brooke told investigators that when William got home and she asked for help, she said that she wasn't sure if Savannah was still alive or not. And that she told this, like, to William. This is what she said. And his response was to go in another room, get a rope, and tie it tightly around Savannah's neck.

And then he'd said, well, if she wasn't dead before, she is now. Okay, question. You might not. I don't know if you know this. I mean, so he disposed of the body. Is that a felony? Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Oh, well, then it doesn't really matter who killed her in the eyes of the law, right? It kind of does. Oh, tell me more. We'll get there. Are you telling me to keep my pants on? I am telling you to keep your pants on. So William. This is just like that episode of Full House.

Where Danny Tanner keeps taking his pants off and everybody's like, whoa, this is a family show. Yeah. They didn't air that episode. No. There was an episode where he wore a skirt. What were they, stealing their fraternity's mascot back from a sorority? Brandi, you remember this show better than anyone else. I believe that's what they dressed up as ladies.

I wish you would cut it out. To go to a sorority luncheon to steal their fraternity's mascot bag. It was like a stuffed otter, perhaps. Wow. What a zany hijink that is. Anyway. Wake up, San Francisco. Oh, yeah.

Oh, my gosh. I forgot that was his job. My Barbie. So, Kyla and I had our own families of Barbies. Obviously. And my Barbie was obviously the morning news anchor. All right. That's the end of that story.

Please don't ask any more questions. Anyway. So, Brooke news anchor. All right. That's the end of that story. Please don't ask any more questions. Anyway, so Brooke says that. All right. She did hard hitting stuff. So Brooke says that when William got home, she told him she wasn't sure if Savannah was alive or not. And so William went, got a robe, tied it around her neck and was like taken care of. William Hain, however, contests this version. He said that the rope was already around Savannah's neck when he got home and that he only helped with the cleanup after the fact.

In December of 2017, Brooke Cruz pled guilty to her role in Savannah's murder. She pled guilty to conspiracy to commit murder, conspiracy to commit kidnapping, and lying to police. Okay, but not conspiracy. She did kidnap. Well, yeah, she did. But that's how the – because there was a plan to do it. Okay. All right.

Did you like how I made this? Yeah, it was like a little – This is the universal symbol. Yeah, it's a plan. do it. Oh, okay. All right. Did you like how I made this? Yeah, it was like a little... Is this the universal symbol? Yeah, it's a plan. Nutshell. Yeah. At the hearing where she entered her guilty pleas... Wait, is conspiracy to commit kidnapping worse than just kidnapping?

Maybe. I don't know. Sounds bad. Well, yeah, it all sounds bad, but I would think kidnapping is like... Sorry. Well, if you just like do a spur of the moment kidnapping. There's no such, you think she just like dreamt up one day? No, because they charged her with conspiracy to commit kidnapping.

I don't think that, in fact. All right. Actual experts, reach out, please. So during the sentence where she entered these pleas, she openly wept throughout the proceedings and she apologized to the Graywind family. She said, there's no excuse. There is no rationalization. There is nothing. My actions devastated a family and shocked the community that I called home. What did she get for this? I'm sorry, everyone.

There's a bird losing its fucking mind outside the window. The loudest bird you've ever heard in your life. Do you think it's because I hooed? Yeah, I think so. It's trying to get in here. There's a fucking owl in there. At this hearing, Brooke explained what she had done to Savannah that day and how she had done it. And she explained that it was because she and William Hain had gotten into an argument about her pregnancy or lack thereof.

So she had told him she was pregnant to get him back. He'd come back. And then they told all of their friends and family that they were having a baby. But it became increasingly clear that Brooke Cruz was not pregnant. So according to Brooke, she and William got into an argument and William had demanded that she produce a baby. No. And in a separate conversation, he mentioned how their downstairs neighbor was very pregnant. He mentioned how their downstairs neighbor was very pregnant.

Brooke testified that while she could not say that William Hay knew about her plan to murder Savannah and take her baby, that that is what she had taken those comments to mean. I don't buy it. Do you? Yeah, I don't know. I think this is a woman who would do anything to keep this partner, this shitty partner. Well, she sounds pretty shitty herself. I do. I think they're both shitty. I think she's more shitty if it's a contest.

I mean, yeah. Do I not know enough of the story? No, I think they're both shitty, but a guy who comes home and finds that his partner has fucking cut somebody open in the bathroom and doesn't call the police,

you're equally shitty. I don't think you're equally shitty. If you believe her version that he then went and tied a rope around her neck, then he's equally shitty. Then he is, yes. But I do think like that would be really, really shocking.

And yeah, obviously you need to call the police. But like, God, I just – I don't know how a person reacts to something like that. No, I don't either. But – but and i can't put them on the same level as the person who lured a pregnant woman up to their apartment for 20 bucks and then cut a baby out of her yeah no i so okay i guess maybe the reason that i am putting them on the same level is because brooke is taking full responsibility for her actions she's pleading guilty. She's. Is she saying she murdered her?

She pled guilty to murder. Okay. What's she getting sentenced? She was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. All right. Now, what's this bitch going say what bitch the dude what's this yeah anyway let's hold on let's back up a tiny bit sorry you know what i'm being you right now you are anyway okay so she explains all that she explains that she took his comments to mean you better produce a baby however you have to fucking do it because we've told everybody that we're having a baby.

And so while he didn't say to her, go kidnap our neighbor and cut her baby out, that's what she believed he was saying. Okay. See, this is – I think it's a stretch. I think that is a stretch. I think that is a stretch. Yeah, it's a stretch. Yeah, it's... I mean, see, to me that's... Why do you have...

What? Why are you being so nice to this guy? I'm not being so nice to him. We haven't talked about him yet. I just called him this bitch. We're going to get to that bitch. I'm just saying she seems to be trying to wiggle out of some of this responsibility here. But she pled guilty and she knew she would get a life sentence. Yeah, she knew if she went to trial, she'd get a life sentence.

So I don't give two shits. I think it's really – I think – OK. So it is going to come down to – spoiler, we'll move ahead a little bit, that even the medical examiner cannot say how Savannah died. Well, I'm sure. I mean, they dumped her in the water, so yeah, I'm sure they can't say. She could have fought the murder charge to some degree and say, I'm not the one that murdered her.

Yeah, good fucking luck. But she didn't. She pled guilty to all of it. Okay. I – William Hain, on the other hand, is not going to do that. Sure. I – again, I understand that he wasn't involved from the beginning.

Yeah. I'm saying this woman – the case against her is so strong. Yeah, absolutely. woman, the case against her is so strong. Yeah, absolutely. It doesn't surprise me that she would plead guilty and avoid the death penalty, potentially. I hadn't even considered that. Yeah. Maybe.

Do they have the death penalty in North Dakota? I have no idea. Yeah. Yeah. I bet. It's never mentioned in this case I almost said I bet my butthole they have the death penalty I bet my whole butthole

you bet your whole butthole you distracted me greatly ma'am from some excellent point I was going to make it's been a long time since you looked at me with horror in your eyes over one of my opinions I'm just really surprised that you've got some weird soft spot for William Hayne It's been a long time since you looked at me with horror in your eyes over one of my opinions. And this case is one of them. I'm just really surprised that you've got like some weird soft spot for William Hayne.

No, I have a hard spot for this woman. Okay, great. You know what? I think they're both super shitty. Oh, wow. So enlightened. Yes, of course they're super shitty. I'm just saying her thing about like, well, he told me, oh, the neighbor downstairs is pregnant.

We'd better have a baby. Like, you know, blow it out your ass, lady. Okay. Yeah, I just don't buy that. Okay. Because, you know, even if someone was hinting at that, which no one would. But, you know, if someone was hinting at that, I feel like, hey, miscarriages happen. So we just say I had a miscarriage, you know?

Yeah. The other thing is I'm I'm also conditioned by you. See, this is all your fault because you cover these cases a lot. And I'm sorry, but I've not heard of one of these cases where the dude is the driving factor behind stealing someone's baby. I don't think he's the driving factor. No. I don't. He's not even in the passenger seat. He's in like the sidecar that's attached and he doesn't even have a helmet on.

I'm not. See, that's where we disagree. I think he's just as involved as she is just as involved brandy he wasn't he had to have immediately gone to work to help conceal what brooke had done there was no moment where he was like holy shit what the fuck did you do you cut a baby out of our neighbor are you fucking kidding me we've got to call the police like there was no time for that. He immediately went to work concealing this.

He's just as fucking bad as she is. Nope. That's where you lose me. He is terrible. It's terrible that he got to work concealing this. I'm sorry. But if again, if we're giving out Olympic medals for shittiness, the gold goes to the person who lures the pregnant woman upstairs and cuts the baby out of her. Yeah.

All right. So you agree with me. So shut up. Anyway, so she was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. For his role in Savannah's murder, William Hain pled guilty to conspiracy to commit kidnapping and lying to police, but not guilty to conspiracy to commit murder. That is interesting to me because he pleads guilty to the kidnapping charge, meaning he was in on it to some degree. Well, yeah. I mean, they kept the baby for a couple of days. Yeah?

Yeah, he was in on that. Okay. And he knew it wasn't their baby. So, yeah, you're guilty of kidnapping. Okay. So he went on trial for the murder charge in September of 2018. And the main witness for the prosecution was Brooke Cruz. She talked about how, I mean, all the stuff I've already told you.

She laid out how she had faked a pregnancy to salvage her relationship. And then she testified that there had been this argument. And William said that he knew she wasn't pregnant and that he demanded that she produce a baby. She said that this led her to believe that she had, quote, better have a baby no matter how it happened. And then in a separate conversation,

she testified that William Hayne had mentioned how, quote, that Grey Wind girl is really pregnant. And Brooke said on the stand that she thought that meant that he wanted her to take Savannah's baby. You can look at your face over there all you want. What does that mean? You're making the most skeptical face. I do think this is a wild notion, that she thinks those little bits of... No, I don't.

Like, earlier today when you were like, I really want some ice cream, my thought was, you know what Brandy is telling me right now? She's not, like, actually telling me telling me, but like I get the vibe. She wants me to rob an ice cream store with 12 guns. And that's what she's telling me right now. And so that's what I'm going to do. I mean, like it's a vibe. She's not like saying it, saying it.

Anyway. She's not like saying it, saying it. Anyway. Well, seriously, that's stupid. I don't. I wouldn't say it's stupid. I'd say that this woman is clearly suffering from some severe mental issues. Well, yeah. Yeah, I think it takes the same type of person who would fake a pregnancy and cut out another woman's baby to draw this conclusion from what her partner is saying.

I think those, yeah, you and I would not draw this same conclusion. Right. So are we, but how much are we putting on him right now in that conversation? No, I don't. I'm not putting that on him. No. Okay, because I blame that whole ice cream robbery. Those kids at Andy's were terrified.

And I said, this is Brandy's fault. OK, so then she talks about how she physically did it. She got her up to the apartment. She cornered her in the bathroom. She pushed her down. She said she hit her head on the sink and then she was just going in and out of consciousness from hitting her head. However, a medical examiner testified that Savannah didn't show any signs of head injury. So let's back up that version. Okay. Brooke continued on in her testimony and said that she then grabbed the box cutter and that she had taken the baby out of Savannah's womb.

She said that then William came home and she handed him the baby and said, this is our baby. This is our family. And then he was super happy at first and then she asked for his help showed him what she'd done and he had asked is she dead and Brooke said on the stand she said I don't know please help me and she said at that point William left the room went and got a rope came back in tied it around Savannah's neck and said if she wasn't dead before, she is now. That same medical examiner who testified that there was no head injury to Savannah also testified that he was unable to determine if Savannah had either died of blood loss or strangulation. It was impossible to tell.

Her official cause of death was listed as homicidal violence. I mean, yeah, that'll do it. On the stand, Brooke Cruz said, I can't undo what I've done, but I can do everything in my power to own up to what I did. to own up to what I did. William Hayne took the stand in his own defense at the trial. He testified that he believed Brooke Cruz when she told him she was pregnant and that he had been elated that afternoon when he came home and heard a baby crying. How old was he? Do you know?

He's like 38, 32. No, he's 32. She's 38, something like that. OK. And it wasn't until he saw the scene in the bathroom that he realized what had happened and that this was in fact not their baby. He was asked on the stand whether he had an agreement with Brooke to kill Savannah and take her baby. And he said, absolutely not. No, no, no.

her baby and he said, absolutely not. No, no, no. For the defense, an inmate from the Western North Dakota women's prison where Brooke Cruz was serving her time testified that Brooke had told her that she strangled Savannah Graywind and cut out her baby. strangled Savannah Graywind and cut out her baby. This obviously varies from the way Brooke had testified, and it seems that the jury believed this version rather than Brooke's version. Well, yeah, I mean the medical examiner. It matches up more with what the medical examiner said?

Absolutely. And the jury acquitted William Hain on the conspiracy to commit murder charge. Yeah, I think you have to. Yeah. Despite this acquittal though, the judge labeled William Hain as a dangerous offender. So he previously had a child abuse conviction resulting from an incident where he reportedly slammed his child down on a changing table. Oh, gosh. Yeah, he also had two children that he did not have contact with.

And with this label as a dangerous offender, the sentencing changes. And so the judge was able to sentence him to life in prison because he was labeled a dangerous offender. And so that's what he sentenced him to for the conspiracy to commit kidnapping and lying to police. He sentenced him to life in prison with the possibility of parole. William Hayne appealed this sentence saying that the judge erred in labeling him a dangerous offender.

So yeah, is that just at the judge's discretion? So it's really interesting. So according to the prosecutor, this law in North Dakota at this time, I don't know if they've changed it since then, was really vague. There wasn't real specific guidelines about how you label someone as a dangerous offender. And so William Hayne appealed this sentence to the North Dakota Supreme Court. And in October of 2019, they agreed that this label was put on him erroneously. So they said that in order to label him a dangerous offender, that his previous conviction must be similar to the conviction he is facing now. Yeah. And a child abuse conviction and a kidnapping conviction are not similar enough for him to be labeled that way.

I mean, they do kind of sound similar. I mean. All right. And so they overturned his sentence. And in October – oh, I'm sorry. Could you get the facts straight before you start telling us this? Anyway, so he was resentenced to 20 years in prison, which was the maximum that was allowed by law. Yeah.

How do you feel about that? I mean, you have to be mad about that. Yeah, I think it's pretty low. Yeah, I think it's pretty low, but I also think he – I do agree with you that he wasn't luring Savannah up to the bathroom and cutting her baby out. That was Brooke. Yeah. So yeah, this probably fits the crime. His sentence fits the crime.

Do you think he killed her? I don't actually. I don't either. I really don't. But I think he's just as culpable because he – No. No. What? I have a real problem with how he just immediately went to work helping conceal this crime.

Well, yes. Anyone should. You'd be nuts not to think it's terrible. So to me, like, yeah, 20 years. You get 20 years because that was a terrible thing to do. Yeah. Yeah. But I – you know what?

This is going to be a theme with my case too. The reason I'm getting so worked up is because this is a theme, this thing of like you're both equally blah, blah, blah, and I just think that's not true. Right. Savannah's family was really upset by his resentencing. Yeah. They thought that that was not justice. And I can understand them feeling that way, of course. Oh, gosh.

Anybody does anything to someone in my family? Oh, fuck yeah. Yes. Hang them by their toenails for the next million years. Of course. We had a teacher that used to say that. Maybe it was my third grade teacher. Which teacher was it?

I think it was Mrs. Tolleson. And she would say, yeah, we're going to hang you up by your toenails. Boy, that's – It's rough. Paints a picture. Anyway, so he was resentenced to 20 years in prison. As a result of Savannah's murder, Savannah's act was submitted for, Jesus Christ. Savannah's act was, Jesus, let me hit this again.

No, please. Patty, keep this all in. Please do not. Brandi knows all about how Bill. Let me sing. I'm just a Bill. Yes, I'm only a Bill. Anyway, so they submitted the PDF.

Stop it. Following Savannah's murder, former North Dakota Senator Heidi Heitkamp introduced Savannah's Act in the United States Senate in October of 2017. The bill aimed to improve tribal access to federal crime information databases and create a standardized protocol for responding to cases of missing and murdered indigenous women. It took like three years for this to get turned into a law. So initially it didn't pass. Some people opposed the language that was in it. But in October of 2020, Savannah's act was signed into law. So that's interesting. So was there a feeling that this case like things? I mean, oh, I guess probably because the police did such a dumb fucking job with the search. There was a

feeling that because she was an indigenous. Yes. Yeah. That they didn't. Yeah. They didn't give it the attention they would have where she not an indigenous woman. I mean, yeah. Can't argue with that. I can't argue with that at all. In the fucking apartment four times before they noticed a baby, there was a body in there. Give me a break. Yeah. It shouldn't have taken them three years to get this bill passed. So initially there was some – I read a couple of articles about this and it's a little bit confusing because I don't understand how bills become laws because I've only seen that Schoolhouse Rock song like one time. Yeah, you only memorize the full house.

It takes all my time to do that. But people were concerned initially that it puts too much focus on only protecting indigenous women on reservations and not urban indigenous women as Savannah was. She didn't live on a reservation at this time. And so they were there were some conversations about if this would actually have improved her situation at all. So it's more complicated. It is more complicated, yeah. So it was broadened a bit, I believe. And that's the story of

the murder of Savannah LaFontaine Greywind. That's awful. Yeah. Did the baby turn out okay? I mean, like. Yeah, the baby is like four years old today and thriving. At the end of this episode, they talked about this Native American naming ceremony that

takes place. And like, it's like this big ceremony and like the family's not involved in choosing the name, like the tribe elders choose the name. And the baby was given the name of – it's the Dakota word for survivor. And like they didn't know the baby's background when this baby was given that name. I mean it just – I bawled my eyes out. Yeah, of course you did. That's amazing.

But yeah, Haisley Jo is thriving and her dad is taking care of her. Wow. Yeah. Oh, gosh. What a sad story. Yeah. I'm sorry I got so mad at you. And I'm sorry you had such stupid opinions.

Oh, no. My computer is shutting down. What? It says I need a software update oh not right now no now is not the time now is not the time now is the time for an ad that's right uh do you know anything about this story hello hi sorry just hang on no oh no i forgot that you did actually give a name. No, I don't.

Sorry. Almost all of this comes from the article The Throwaways by Sarah Stillman for The New Yorker. The trial coverage comes from the Tallahassee Democrat and the Tampa Tribune. You know, also thank you to all the sources. So this happens in Florida. Very good, Brandy. Thank you. Mm-hmm. Also, thank you to all the sources. So this happens in Florida. Very good, Brandy. Thank you. Brandy, my lady, let's talk about confidential informants.

Oh. In the war on drugs, confidential informants are key. Why are you making a face? Do you not like keys? I guess we know which side you're on. Sarah Stillman's New Yorker article estimated that CIs are involved in as many as 80%

of drug cases. And they're great, because you know what? Undercover cops are expensive, but confidential informants aren't. You don't have to train them. You don't even have to fill out a bunch of paperwork about them. And best of all, there aren't a lot of annoying rules about who can become a CI. That seems like a problem.

What? No, no. It's all very convenient, okay? A child can become a CI. That seems like a real problem. Someone who's struggling with an addiction can become a CI. Someone who's in way over their head, like, they can be a CI. Okay. It's a win-win situation, Brandi, that's what I'm telling you. Wait, who's the two winners? I'll tell you.

The confidential informants give police the information they need and the cops make a big drug bust. Woo! And in exchange, maybe the CI gets their own drug charges dropped or reduced. Okay. When? When? Hmm. There's just one little thing.

Being a CI can be super dangerous. Yeah, I would imagine it's extremely dangerous. That's when we said children could be. That sounds like a real problem. Yeah, it is. Generally speaking, the people who get pressured to become CIs are young people of color who don't have a lot of money. are young people of color who don't have a lot of money. And back before we started to see the decriminalization of marijuana,

a lot of CIs were just people who'd been caught with pot and didn't want to go to prison for it. Yeah, imagine that. There are a lot of examples of CIs getting found out and getting murdered. But the vast majority of those murders haven't resulted in any kind of policy change or new rules around how law enforcement handles confidential informants. But the murder of Rachel Hoffman is an exception to that rule. And that's the case we'll discuss today. OK. Everybody got your papers ready? Everybody got your chapstick on? I'm putting on some Carmex here. Did I sound like a 1920s newspaper boy?

Got your Carmex here. Extra, extra. Very sorry. How jarring for someone who doesn't know what goofballs we are. They just, like, picked this episode out, you know, thought it'd be interesting. Joke's on you. Buttholes. I wasn't calling

them buttholes for the record. Oh, I know. I was just slipping buttholes into the conversation. As one does. That's right. Didn't I just say I'd bet my butthole on something? You did. You did say you'd bet your butthole. My most valuable asset. Asset. Okay, anyway, that's

what's happening on this podcast so although if you haven't picked up on that by now yeah you're equally culpable as brandy would say calm down equally culpable that's how you sounded okay great like homestar runner wait no that wasn't homestar what What was the bad guy on Homestar Runner? I don't know. What is that? Neither do I. You know every episode of Full House, but you don't remember Homestar Runner?

No, what's Homestar Runner? We don't have time anyway. What is it? It was a very cool webcomic in like 03. Yeah, it sounds vaguely familiar. Okay. And yet you can give us a blow-by-blow of every single – Yeah, what episode do you want to know about?

Let me tell you all about it. Please. So one time Joey thought that they were kicking him out of the house. And he thought they just, like, threw all his shit into the garage. And he was really pissed about it. And they were like, just go get it. Go down there. And then it turns out that they've converted the garage into a really nice bedroom for him.

And he was really touched. Yeah. By an angel, which is a different show. I was never a Joey fan. Cut it out. Yeah, exactly. I was never a fan of him. You're like Mr. Woodchuck.

No, I thought he was stupid. Even as a child, I thought he was stupid. Uncle Jesse I enjoyed because he was smoking hot. Absolutely. Yeah. He could stay. Even when he had that stupid mullet. Yeah.

You know, some people. Yeah, but when he got his hair cut off. Oh, I know. I know. Hot. Goodness gracious. Have mercy. Have mercy.

Yes. Did you like Uncle Joey? I mean, I didn't really think that much about Uncle Joey. Uncle Joey, though, Dave Coulier is the one you ought to know is about. Did you know that? Yeah, I knew that. Yeah. Anyway, he recently spoke out about that. Try to go down on me in a theater.

What did he say? He said he had no idea that he'd hurt Elias Morissette so deeply until he heard that song. Okay, well. He said they're cool now, though. Well, yeah, I mean, what are you going to say? I mean, they better be cool now. It's been a million years. Four years.

Did he cheat on her? I don't know. Well, why'd you bring it up? Did you bring it up or did I bring it up? It just organically came up in conversation. I'm just saying, like, if he cheated on her, I don't want to hear any bullshit about, like, I had no idea I hurt her that much. Did you not want me to stick my dick in that other woman? That's what Sam Shepard said.

My brother told me that sexual relations with someone other than my wife might hurt my wife. Imagine my shock when I found out that my wife had feelings. Anyway, please let me get back to the point. Alright. Jesus, bite your coffee down. I'm sorry, I'm in kind of a fun mood. You know, sometimes

I get my fun aunt energy. Yeah. I think it's the earrings. I've got big hoops on. And also, we were miming being ribbon dancers before we recorded today. So that's probably part of it. Everyone, Norman didn't remember the ribbon dancer. Yeah.

Norman. Oh, my God. Some people. He thought we were talking about just scarves. Yeah. Norman. Oh, my God. Some people. He thought we were talking about just scarves. Yeah. Like dance, like juggling scarves. Like there's no such thing as a juggling scarf. Yes, there is. Okay. But I mean, just scarves, you know, people get the idea. But I'll tell you what, it's not scarves slash ribbon dancer. Those are two totally different things. Totally different things.

All right, let me talk about a murder. Jesus. I thought you started it like 20 minutes ago. Oh, I'm sorry. Are there too many tangents on this podcast for you? It's delicious coffee. I think I'll just sip it for a while. Okay, great.

Okay, back to Rachel. Yes. Rachel Hoffman was white. She had a middle-class background, and she was kind of a free spirit. She loved an adventure. She went skydiving. She hiked the Grand Canyon. Rocky Mountain climbing. And

unlike some people, she didn't get canyon toe. What? What? I went skydiving. Rocky Mountain climbing. I went 2.7 seconds on a bull named Fu Manchu. That song does not sound familiar. It's Tim McGraw, Live Like You Were Dying. Oh, yeah. You know, I'm not a big fan of that song. So I think I must. You blocked it out.

Well, I think I must skip, you know, as soon as that thing comes on. By the way, are you watching The Patient? Not yet. I want to watch it so badly, though. Okay. I'm shocked you're watching it. What do you mean you're shocked? It's kind of spooky.

You don't like spooky stuff. Yes, I do. I don't like horror movies. Oh, okay. But you tell me Steve Carell is a therapist and his serial killer client kidnaps him. Yeah, he's held hostage by his – anyway. I have to tell you something that's not a spoiler. Okay, tell me. It is really like my favorite detail.

They made the serial killer a Kenny Chesney fan. Like a huge Kenny Chesney fan. He's a member of No Shoes Nation. So you guys have that in common. So Norman, it's like everyone I took Norman to a

Kenny Chesney concert and he did not enjoy it. I however did. And so now like the serial killer will listen to some great songs in my opinion and i'm singing along with the serial killer yeah norm can't wait for that part to be over no he gets a lot of satisfaction to be like yeah you and the serial killer big kenny chesty fans it's a lifestyle brandy wouldn't understand. That's no shoes nation, people.

Anyway, what I'm trying to tell you is Rachel was a free spirit. She hiked the Grand Canyon and didn't get canyon toe like some people we know. Okay, great. Good for her. I'm really proud of her. I got canyon toe when I hiked the Grand Canyon. It's fine. Toes aren't the same today.

Did it do permanent damage? Yeah, it did. Did it really? Yeah. What was the permanent damage? To my toenails. Well, yeah, I understand. Like, what happened?

They just grow different. Different how? They're, this is disgusting. People don't want to know about this. Listen, people know what they signed up for with this fucking podcast. They are, we'll say they're less for with this fucking podcast. They are. We'll say they're less connected than they once were. What the?

The nail bed was damaged. Oh, my God. So like the slightest breeze will take them right off? Wow. Yes, ma'am. And how was your vagina impacted by the camel toe? I did not suffer camel toe on this particular hike, Christian. That's not what I heard.

Well, that was really disgusting. I don't know why you insisted on telling us that. Anyway, Rachel loved music festivals she often attended them wearing a floppy fabulous purple hat her parents were irv hoffman and margie weiss and they divorced when rachel was a baby so rachel's life was divided between two pretty different houses her dad irv was a mental health counselor and he was a little more on the serious side. And her mom, Margie, was a nurse and a massage therapist and a little hippy-dippy. So one house was more structured, the other a little less so. And that definitely showed in

Rachel's personality. After high school, she went off to Florida State University, where she majored in criminal justice and psychology. She got an internship at a mental health institute. And she liked to smoke pot. She sold pot to her friends. But then in her junior year of college. Lock her up. Lock her up. Yeah.

Jesus. In her junior year of college, she got pulled over for speeding. And, okay, Rachel's car definitely smelled like pot. I mean, it was a thing. So the officer questioned her, and Rachel admitted that she had some marijuana in the car, almost an ounce of it. That wasn't great. So she was put in a court-ordered substance abuse program, and as part of the program, she had to do these weekly drug tests. She was good about submitting to the drug tests,

except for that one time in March of 2008 when she didn't. She missed the drug test to go to a funeral, but still, you can't just not show up for a drug test. So in early April of 2008, she was ordered to go to jail for three days. Really? Yeah. Holy shit. I know, because she got caught with a little pot. Yeah. What a giant waste.

It is such a waste. Rachel was pretty freaked out, but she tried to put on a brave face. She had other things to worry about. By that point, her college graduation was just a few weeks away. And she was trying to figure out the next steps in life. She had already applied for her master's degree in mental health counseling, but she knew she didn't want to go like a super traditional route with counseling. She wanted to combine some of her passions.

She loved helping kids, but she also had this passion for cooking. So she was considering enrolling in culinary school because she had this idea for a new form of therapy where, you know. That sounds amazing. Yeah. Like a hands-on therapy. Yes. That sounds amazing. Yeah.

Her whole thing was like, you you know a lot of kids don't aren't gonna open up in like a stuffy office but if we're making a pizza yeah then you know yeah it sounds amazing does that exist i don't know but it i mean it should it really should this article is from like 2012 and i I was like, oh, my gosh, what a groundbreaking, amazing idea. Seriously. I really think that's such a good idea. So do I. So, you know, she had that kind of cool idea.

But for now, she had to focus on those last few weeks of college. But on April 17th, 2008, she was sitting alone in her apartment, which was filled with scented candles and John Lennon posters. And the New Yorker article didn't mention a tapestry, but there was absolutely a tapestry above her bed, I'm guessing. And the police knocked on the door. They said they were there on an anonymous tip. They asked her if she had any illegal substances in her apartment. What's your face? What's your face about? They can do that? Show up on an anonymous tip? Yeah. Where's their warrant? They don't have one. They're just knocking on the door asking questions, Brandy.

Okay. No, officer. I have nothing here. Thank you. Have a great day. Well, Rachel admitted that she did have stuff. They asked if they could search her apartment. She said yes. No, thank you. Have a great day. I actually don't know that they asked, but I wonder if you're in a program. It's like a vampire. Once you've invited them in the house, they can do whatever they want to. You took the words right out of my mouth. You took the words right out of my mouth. Is that also Tim McGraw?

I don't know that one either. That's Meatloaf! Must have been while you were kissing me. Ew. God, Meatloaf sucked. How dare you besmirch the good name of Meatloaf! Does Meatloaf have a good name? Yes!

I feel like the only good thing they did was, Paradise by the dashboard lights. No. You're so mad you didn't even join in. I couldn't. no you're so mad you didn't even join i couldn't i stole the words right out of your mouth probably when i was smooching on you the words right out of my mouth oh my god i'm sorry for messing up those amazing lyrics you've never heard this song before?

I, like most people, am not familiar with Meat Loaf's non-hits. Bad Outta Hell album. How do you know the name of it? I mean, I assume it's on that album. I'm not positive. Meat Loaf is very successful, Kristen. A very popular musician. Yeah, I mean, obviously, we've all heard of Meatloaf. I mean, but, like, you know what?

We're going to move on. Okay. Anyway, so you made the point about the vampires, which was very helpful. Yada, yada, yada. They searched the apartment and they found five ounces of pot and four ecstasy pills. Rachel was in serious trouble. The police told her that they could charge her with possession of cannabis with intent to sell, and they could charge her with maintaining a drug house. Those were felonies. She could go to prison for four years.

Holy shit. Or we could make this all go away. Mm-hmm. By making you a confidential informant. They said that, you know, if she became a confidential informant, maybe they could reduce the charges. Maybe the charges could go away. The key was that she needed to provide substantial assistance to law enforcement. That was the rule. Substantial assistance.

The fuck's that mean? That's really vague. You know, it's substantial, you know. Okay. What more do you want? I don't like how vague that is, and I don't like that the reward is not specifically laid out. That's really picky of you. Well, okay.

So Rachel agreed to that deal. They didn't charge her with anything, and in exchange, she would help them catch a bigger fish. The next day, she went to the police station, and she signed a contract to become a CI. She'd be confidential informant number 1129. Her point of contact was Officer Ryan Pender, whom she saved in her phone as Pooh Bear. Why? I wish I knew. I'm guessing that if anybody goes through her phone, the last person you're expecting as her contact within the police would be the guy who she saved as Pooh Bear.

Okay. According to one of Rachel's friends, the police told her that she needed to help them bust people who were into some serious shit. Guns, cocaine, heroin. But Rachel wasn't very well connected with that world. And maybe she wasn't cut out to be a CI. Because the first person she decided to set up was this guy she knew who sold pot. But the more she thought about it, she's like, I can't do that to him.

He's my friend. So before that deal could even go through, she called him up and she was like, I am so sorry. I'm working with the police right now. And they want me to set somebody up. I was going to set you up. You know, she's just like, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. You know, and she's very scared because she needed to give someone to the police.

Otherwise, they might charge her and she would go to prison. So the guy was like, hey, OK, it's all right. If you want, I can try to find someone for you to target. And she agreed. And since he was doing her this solid, Rachel was like, as a thank you, I will pay your utility bill. And the guy was stoked because his utility bill was overdue. OK, great. Works out for everyone.

At some point in all this, Rachel graduated from Florida State. At some point in all this, Rachel graduated from Florida State. And a while later, the guy was like, OK, there's this guy named Andrea Green. I've seen him dealing before. He works at an auto shop. Or was it a car wash? Some places called it a car detailing shop. Is that just fancy car wash?

These are the things I don't know. Yeah, that's like way beyond just a car wash. It's where they, you know, detail the car. Like scrub it down real good? Yeah. Like when you buy a car and it looks brand new and shiny even though it's, you know, got 40,000 miles on it, it's been detailed.

Ah. Do you have your car detailed sometimes? I don't. I really want to, though. I mean, these services are available to you. I know, but I think they're kind of expensive. It seems kind of extravagant. Oh. I've had one car detailed ever, and it came back to me, and it was like a brand new fucking car. Wow.

Okay. The funny thing was Rachel had actually met Andrea before. She'd taken her car to him one time and he'd teased her because it reeked of weed. So Rachel told the cops about Andrea Green and they were like, great, let's get you started. The initial plan was for her to just buy drugs. The initial plan was for her to just buy drugs. But Rachel asked Officer Ryan Pender, well, if I bought a gun, would that help my charges? She was really concerned about clearing that bar of providing substantial assistance to law enforcement.

And Ryan told her, any charge you get against him, if you bought anything stolen from him, if he's dealing with stolen property, that would be a charge. That would help with substantial assistance. So it was settled. They had her wear a wire and go to the auto shop and arrange to buy some cocaine and 1,500 ecstasy pills and a gun. Jesus. Right? She had four ecstasy pills in a gun. Jesus. Right? She had four ecstasy pills in her apartment. Right?

What's she gonna do with $1,500? This is, they're fucking blowing their wad way too early. Never say that again. You can't go in fucking guns blazing. Yeah, your first purchase. My first purchase, I'm purchasing 1,500 ecstasy pills?

Mm-hmm. Are you fucking crazy? That's ridiculous. When she placed that order, Rachel explained that she had friends visiting from Miami. 1,500 of them. Rachel explained that she had friends visiting from Miami. $1,500. And they wanted some drugs, and she wanted a gun for personal safety.

She said she wanted a gun that was small and pretty. So, Andrea, who was in his early 20s, and his brother-in-law, Danilo Bradshaw, who was also in his early 20s, worked together to get Rachel what she wanted. Because, you know, this was a pretty big order, as you mentioned. Yeah, that is a fucking huge order. How much cocaine was she buying? It'd be funny if it was just like a speck of cocaine. I mean, 1,500. 1,500 ecstasy tabs?

Bills? What is it coming? I don't know. You're asking me? You're asking me? You're asking me? You're asking me? You're asking me? You're asking me?

You're asking me? You're asking me? You're asking me? You're asking me? I only picture them, purchase them in packs of 2,000 for all my friends. They're coming in from Miami. So once they got everything together, they told Rachel to meet them at Danilo's parents' house just outside of Tallahassee. told Rachel to meet them at Danilo's parents' house just outside of Tallahassee. She'd need to bring $13,000 in cash, and they'd give her everything she'd asked for. The police had to be stoked. According to the Tallahassee Democrat, this was going to be the police department's biggest buy bust in memory.

Yeah, but they're... What? They are setting her up for failure. Why do you say that? Because this is way too big of an order. It looks suspicious as hell. Also, even if... Okay.

All right. Say that Andrea and his brother believe that she's really there to dry these buy these drugs I almost said dry these bugs buy these drugs they've also now put her in a position where she's meeting two men

that she doesn't know with a large amount of money that seems very dangerous and we know for sure they're bringing at least one gun one handgun it's small and pretty what could go wrong? well I mean you told us that she gets murdered so yep And we know for sure they're bringing at least one gun. One handgun. It's small and pretty.

What could go wrong? Well, I mean, you told us that she gets murdered. Yep. So I don't think it's going well. This was all scheduled to go down on May 7, 2008. At around 6 p.m. that evening, Rachel went to the police station, and they put a wire on her, and they put a recording device in her purse and they gave her 13 grand in marked bills. They normally don't put a recording device in a purse. They usually put it in the car.

It's safer that way. But Rachel felt more comfortable with it in her purse. One of the guys offered to go with her, which obviously would increase the safety. But she felt like, no, you know, that might be weird, you know. Okay. She was the expert, so it's okay to go with what she wants to do, right? No, no. Again, I say they are not setting her up for success here.

They're setting her up for failure. Yeah. I say they are not setting her up for success here. They're setting her up for failure. Rachel hadn't told many people what she was doing, but her boyfriend knew. And right before she headed out, he texted her, I kind of like you, so be safe. But of course Rachel would be safe. She wasn't alone.

There were 15 police officers, three DEA agents, and one highway patrol officer, all in the immediate vicinity. They'd all be hanging around. They'd be monitoring her this whole time. And Officer Pender would have eyes on her the whole time. So Rachel drove out to the location, but at the last minute, the guys said, hey, let's not meet at the house. Let's meet at Forest Meadows Park. And Rachel agreed. But Rachel wasn't familiar with the area.

And when she got close to the park, she made a wrong turn and the police lost sight of her. And then the wire went dead. Oh, my gosh. So the police couldn't hear Rachel. They couldn't see her. They couldn't see her. They called her cell phone. She didn't answer. Minutes passed.

Then Rachel called Officer Ryan Pender. She told him she was headed toward a plant nursery. She said, I followed them from the nursery. We're on Gardner. It looks like the deal is going to go down here. It's a dead-end street. And Ryan knew something was wrong. He said, turn around, turn around.

Do not follow them. And then the line went dead. Oh, shit. The officers panicked. None of them were very familiar with that area either. They didn't know where Gardner Road was, so they searched for it. A DEA plane circled overhead, looking for Rachel and her silver Volvo. But the area was so thickly wooded that they couldn't see anything.

The officers did eventually find Gardner Road, but it was too late. They went down it. They hit the dead end. Couldn't find Rachel. They couldn't even find her car. Oh, my gosh. All they found were a couple spent rounds, six cigarette butts, and one of Rachel's flip-flops. They searched and searched and searched for her, but couldn't find her. At around 2.30 that morning, an officer called Rachel's parents and said that Rachel was missing. A couple hours later,

they called Rachel's parents again and told them that Rachel was still missing and that they should come to Tallahassee. So Margie and Irv did in a pure panic. They arrived at the Tallahassee Police Department where they were taken to the narcotics unit. Margie wondered why they weren't being taken to the missing persons unit. But, you know, okay, you know, go with it. The police chief, dennis jones told irvin margie that rachel was still missing but officers were searching for her he said the best thing that irvin margie could do was go back to rachel's apartment and wait there so that's what they did they don't know anything about what's going on, they didn't like let them in on the fact that she was.

Nope. Okay. Okay. I think. I think that they had this hope that she tried to steal the 13 grand and run. So like they went to her boyfriend's house and they were like, like, they went to her boyfriend's house, and they were like, hey, have you seen her? And he, of course, was like, no.

So, honestly, I think that's what they were hoping. No, that makes sense. So her parents went to Rachel's apartment, and they turned on the TV so that they could watch the local news, and there was a segment on Rachel. And wow, they learned a lot from that news segment. According to a press release from the police, Rachel had, quote, provided assistance during a police operation the day she went missing. They learned that on the news?

They learned it on the news. I would have lost my fucking mind. They also learned that officers suspected foul play in her disappearance. Very cool. Very, very cool. Right. Right. Happy to learn that on the news. Wonderful. They also

named two suspects. Great. All of this information could have just been given to the parents when they were right there at the police station. That sounds uncomfortable to have to admit. Like, yeah, we put your daughter in a terrible position. Great. Something totally preventable. So, you know, the news was out.

Andrea Green and Danilo Bradshaw were the two suspects. From the news, Rachel's parents also learned that the police had found her car. It had been abandoned outside a welding shop. Police had also found Rachel's iPhone. It was lying on the side of the road in a ditch. All this information was stunning. Rachel clearly wasn't just missing. Something horrible had happened to her.

But it didn't take long to find Andrea and Danilo. At around 5 p.m. the day after Rachel went missing, Andrea and Danilo were arrested in Orlando in a Macy's parking lot at the Mall of the Millennia, which is a dated name. Shopping? Yep. Shopping at Macy's. 13 grand? Yep, they had quite a bit of money on them.

Yeah. Early that next morning, Andrea and Danilo led police to a creek bed off of Cabbage Grove Road in Perry, Florida, and that was where they'd left Rachel's body. They'd shot her five times with the gun she'd said she wanted to buy and covered her with her Grateful Dead sweatshirt. That morning, police held a press conference, and they blamed Rachel for her murder.

I'm sorry, what? Oh, yeah, you're going to love this quote. Officer David McCraney said, We had established protocols in place to ensure her safety. At some point during the investigation, she chose not to follow the instructions. She met Green and Bradshaw on her own. That meeting ultimately resulted in her murder. First of all, no, she didn't.

You... She didn't meet them on her own. Right. She thought you assholes were watching her. Yes. And you lost her. Mm-hmm. Holy shit.

So to sum it up, she fucked this whole thing up. Margie and Irv were stunned. Why were the police talking about their daughter that way? And why had their daughter, who'd never even fired a gun before, been at the center of a major drug bust? Yeah. Over the next few weeks, they learned more about how tragically common it was for young people, many of them teenagers, to become CIs without talking to a lawyer first or even just being made aware of the risks. CIs all over the country had been murdered, just like Rachel. And it seemed like nobody

in power cared. But here's the thing. Irv and Margie are nothing if not determined and well-connected, Brandy. So they reached out to an attorney named Lance Block. Lance happened to be the dad of one of Rachel's friends

and he's also a big fucking deal. He is? Why, are you surprised? No, I'm just trying to tell you. I'm telling you, they're well connected. Alright, well, I'm trying to tell you. Tell me about what a big deal he is. I just like his name, Lance Block. At one point,

he was the president of the Academy of Florida Trial Lawyers. Oh, shit. And he was the chair of the Florida Lawyers Action Group. And in 2005, he got his clients one of America's largest jury verdicts ever, $30.6 million. Wow. Sorry. What?

Sorry. I'm looking at this and I was just researching the Erin Andrews case and I think the jury awarded her $55 million. So I'm wondering, is this really one of the biggest? It probably was at the time. All right. We won't take that away from you, Lance. Yeah. In the 2000 presidential election, he was the lead attorney for the Democratic Party in the recount.

Sure wish you'd won that one. Anyway, all this to say, Lance Block was the right guy to call. And he was like, OK, Irvin Margie, I'm going to represent you pro bono. What happened to Rachel was wrong and we're going to change some laws. Lance began looking into what the rules were around confidential informants. Oh, there's fucking none, as it turns out. Yeah. The rare exception is California.

California had a rule that confidential informants can't be younger than 13. That's – Yeah. I know. That's like having no rules. It's alarming to me. Yeah. That that's not I mean, my God, how young are these confidential informants? They

must be pretty fucking young. Yeah. That has to be a rule. Yeah. So Irv and Margie and Lance decided to brainstorm their own rules. First off, they discovered that a lot of people who get pressured into becoming CIs haven't been charged yet and they haven't been arrested yet, which means they haven't been read their Miranda rights. So that needed to change. They wanted anyone who was asked to become a CI to know that they had the right to speak to an attorney first. Also, you know, certain people just shouldn't be confidential informants. Kids shouldn't be CIs.

People in drug treatment programs shouldn't be CIs. Also, a CI should be going after someone who is roughly at their same level. Don't send some small potatoes, nonviolent CI after somebody with a documented history of violent behavior. So Irv and Margie were working on this bill. How does that work, Brandi? I don't know. And in the meantime, a grand jury indicted Andrea and Danilo for Rachel's murder. But they did more than that.

The grand jury also just like spanked the police force. Yeah. They said that the police had been negligent. Yes. And that the people involved in this sting needed to face disciplinary action. I agree. get into a car by herself with $13,000 to go off and meet two convicted felons that they knew were bringing at least one firearm with them was an unconscionable decision that cost Ms. Hoffman her life. Less than 15 minutes after she drove away from the offices of the Tallahassee Police

Department, she drove out of the sight of the officers who assured her they would be right on top of her watching and listening the whole time. She cried out for help as she was shot and killed, Yep. Side note. Danilo and Andrea were convicted felons, but I think it's only fair to mention that Danilo's felony was for marijuana possession. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Andrea had a felony for selling marijuana and for aggravated assault. So Andrea had a history of violence.

But, I mean, if we're not mad at Rachel about the marijuana, I don't think we should be mad at these two over their marijuana. I agree. It's funny because, you know, you hear that quote from the grand jury and it's like, sent her to meet two convicted felons. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. But then you look into it and. Yeah. If we're not mad at the white girl for pot, let's not be mad at the black guys for pot.

No, absolutely. So now the grand jury had spoken out. They'd said that the police had messed this whole thing up. And an internal affairs investigation confirmed the grand jury's feelings. The investigation revealed that police had violated nearly two dozen policies when they handled Rachel Hoffman. There are policies in place then? Yeah. But, you know, I mean, it's, you know, if you want to—

Policy schmolicy, I always say. That's right, Brandy. The rule breaker is what we call you. Ryan Pender, who had been Rachel's main contact, was fired. Four other officers were suspended for two weeks without pay. And Police Chief Dennis Jones and Deputy Chief John Proctor were reprimanded. So that had to be rough for them. Just a big old slap on the wrist.

They wagged a finger at them. Yeah. And they gave him just like a little pat on the head. And they're like, okay, run along, you know. They kind of like, they knocked their hat a little. Oh, I thought you were flicking their nipple. Why would that? That might turn them on.

We are reprimanding. You don't know how to reprimand. I'll tell you that right now. Tallahassee Police Chief Dennis Jones told the media, we were placing most of the blame on Rachel Hoffman. I regret that now. It made us look like we weren't taking responsibility for what happened. You weren't taking responsibility. It didn't make

you look like that. You weren't. I hate it when people say that shit. You know, it gave the impression that we were doing this other... No! You were doing this other thing! You were doing it! People saw you doing it. They didn't like it. Now you're caught. And by caught, I mean reprimanded,

which apparently means you got your nipple flicked in Brandy's room. I do regularly flick David's nipples. But only when he's not acting right. Isn't that true? That's how I reprimanded him. It was at this point when the police had their tails between their legs and their nipples were still stinging that Lance Block was like, OK, we have to make our move with this bill. Take it from here, Brandy.

I'm just a bill. Yes, I'm only a bill. And I'm sitting here on Capitol Hill. And then that just shorts out to put it on. That's all I know. State Senator Mike Fasano and Representative Peter Nair, who were both Republicans, sponsored Rachel's law. And even though Rachel's law sure seems like it's just chock full of common sense reforms, police hated it. Of course they did.

We don't want any rules about our CIs because there's a reason we do stuff the way we do it, and we don't need the law. Huh? Getting involved here. In law enforcement. Because we are the law. Beautifully done, Brandi. Is that what they said? The Florida Sheriff's Association and the Florida Department of Law Enforcement lobbied against Rachel's law.

They argued that if they couldn't use young people as CIs, then they wouldn't be able to catch young people committing crimes. Also, if there was more paperwork relating to a CI, then their identity might be at risk. Which, that's, okay, that's one that annoys me. Because on the one hand, it's like, all right, yes, you have to keep their identity a secret. Of course. But I don't really buy that that's the reason you don't want paperwork on these kids. I completely agree. Also, if people go talk to an attorney, then they might not want to become a CI.

And that would really suck. So let's not do this. As a result of all this pushback, Rachel's law got watered down. They took out the rule about not using kids as CIs. What? I know. They took out the rule about potential CIs having a right to consult an attorney. Here's the thing, though.

Even with it watered down, Rachel's law was still groundbreaking. On the one-year anniversary of her murder, the Florida governor signed Rachel's law. About six months later, on November 30, 2009, Danilo Bradshaw went on trial for murder. He was facing the death penalty. His parents maintained that their son would never hurt a woman. Danilo was two years younger than Andrea, and unlike Andrea, he didn't have a record for violent behavior. He did have a record for burping in the middle of a podcast, though.

You guys have that in common. That's cool. Danilo's parents said that they hadn't liked the fact that their son hung around Andrea. His stepdad, Carrie Freeman, said, We tried to keep our son separated from him, but nevertheless, they did smoke marijuana and sell some to their friends. I'm not condoning that. Carrie was concerned about Danilo. He was worried about the role that race was playing in this case. Rachel was white and Danilo and Andrea were black. When Danilo's jury was selected, his parents became even more worried.

Is it all white? Only two members of the jury were black, and they were older people, and they were like, this doesn't look like a jury of his peers. In his opening statement, Assistant State Attorney Frank Allman told the jury that they likely wouldn't ever know who pulled the trigger, Danilo or Andrea, and that didn't matter. He said, the identity of the shooter is not something that is necessary to come to a verdict in this case. Equally culpable. Am I right, Brandy?

Oh, oh, oh, oh. What's wrong? I don't know. Oh, no, no, no, no. Let's give you the floor. Let's hear it, mother equally culpable. I don't know. This is such a different scenario than the other case.

Is it? Is it? Stop it. No, what do you think? You know what I think. You think it matters who pulled the trigger. Yes! Yes!

Are you fucking kidding me? Of course it matters. I think it's... And I know that the law doesn't always see it that way. I know a lot of people don't see it that way, but I am right, so... The identity of the shooter definitely mattered to the police. way, but I am right, so. The identity of the shooter definitely mattered to the police. Oh, shit.

I think I wrote that wrong. I meant the defense. So easily confused. Yes. Defense attorney Chuck Hobbs said that Andrea Green shot and killed Rachel Hoffman, and Andrea Green threatened to kill Danilo Bradshaw if he did not cooperate. Danilo was guilty, yes, but he was guilty of stealing drug money. He was not guilty of murder. By the way, I forgot to mention this.

Didn't write this part down as I often don't. Wait, I forgot to mention this. Didn't write this part down as I often don't. The New Yorker article had an interview with a friend of these guys who said that those 1,500 ecstasy pills, it was aspirin. Like the whole plan had been to rob her. Yeah. Which, again, I – I mean that's kind of what I thought from the beginning. It's like we're talking about these like low level.

Yeah. Like you think they're pulling in like that they could procure that much ecstasy. Right. Yeah. So that's what the New Yorker article mentions. There's no other mention about like, did they bring real drugs to this thing? I think that's relevant to me. Yeah.

Because otherwise it just feels like entrapment-y. Anyway, I'll just keep going here. Okay. The prosecution put up like 30 witnesses. They played the recording of Rachel setting up the deal. In it, she told Danilo that she wanted to buy beans and fire, which, of course, is code for ecstasy and a gun, which I knew because I'm cool.

Very cool. I also eat beans and have fire. She told him, you have a kind smile and kind eyes. Be good to me and I'll be good to you. She also told him that she wanted to buy White Lady. And Danilo didn't know what that meant, so she had to explain to him that it was cocaine. so she had to explain to him that it was cocaine. I feel like this young woman, like, Googled some stuff and was like, I know how to buy drugs

and had no idea what she was doing. I think she also had no idea that what she was doing was actually dangerous. Okay, it's funny that that's how you go with it. I mean, I, yeah, I'm with you there. But, and I mean, like he doesn't know what that slang term means and she puts in this order for 1500 pills of ecstasy and he comes up with aspirin maybe he's not the big drug and maybe he is and I just don't know but like uh yeah Yeah. Yeah. A medical examiner testified that Rachel had been shot five times.

The first two shots had taken place in her car. They'd been fired from the passenger seat. Neither of them had killed her, though. But then the shooter had come to the driver's side, and Rachel lifted her hand up up to protect herself and the killer shot her three more times in the head. A woman testified that her gun had been stolen out of her car when she took it to the auto shop where Danilo and Andrea worked. Rachel's point person in law enforcement, Ryan Pender, testified. And what he said – what? what seems like irresponsible gun ownership you're leaving

don't you secure your weapon when you're having somebody else work on your car I mean yeah you should yeah but I mean I would I would hope that you could trust people not to steal shit but yeah I wouldn't leave a gun out. No.

If nothing else, just because that's really dangerous. For safety purposes, yes. That's exactly what I was thinking. Yeah, I wouldn't think much of anybody stealing it. I'd be like, oh, I'd hate for somebody to accidentally come across that and not have any idea how to properly handle it. I'm focusing on the wrong thing here. Well, I mean, that's why you don't leave dildos in your car when you go. That's right.

Because what if they don't know how to properly handle it? Yeah. What if you come to pick the car up and it's in their ear? They're like, God, you're getting nothing from it. And he says, you don't know that I'm getting nothing from it. An ear is actually a very sensitive erogenous zone. And so then it turns out you learned something that day. That's right.

So Ryan Pender said that Rachel had been a high-level drug dealer. She had told him that she was selling between 15 and 25 grand worth of marijuana a week. No. No, she wasn't, and no, she didn't. He also said that she volunteered to be a CI. No, no, she didn't. Ryan also conceded that it had been Andrea Green, not Danilo Bradshaw, who had been the target of the sting.

What's wrong, Brandy? These guys lying. Yeah, so my thought is you're basically kind of being held in some way responsible for her murder, as you should be. You put her in the situation, as did, mean he's not the only one i hate it when like something like this happens and there's one fall guy yeah i don't believe for one second then one person messed up in this no no but yeah the way to get some of that guilt off of you would be to be like oh well no she told me she was some big time drug drug dealer. Yeah. $25,000 a week or whatever.

Yeah, no, there's no way. No. She had five ounces of pot and four ecstasy pills. Mm-hmm. Maybe she just sold a bunch of stuff. Obviously. She was flush with cash. It would be virtually impossible to tell who actually pulled the trigger,

so the prosecution did their best to establish Danilo's involvement in the crime from start to finish. A string of witnesses testified about seeing Danilo and Andrea shortly after Rachel's murder. A guy named David Andrews testified that he was driving down the road and came along a BMW that had gotten stuck in some sand. He saw a Volvo idling nearby. So it's believed that Danilo and Andrea had been fleeing the scene in the two vehicles and they got to a curve in the road and Andrea went around it a little too fast and got stuck. So this good Samaritan, David Andrews, stopped to help the stranger in the BMW, who he later identified as Andrea Green.

And he said that Andrea was acting very nervous. He wanted out of that sand so badly. And at one point, without asking permission, Andrea just hopped in the back of David's truck and started trying to take some cords that David was using to secure a cooler. Yeah. What? Yeah. And so David's like, what the hell? Yeah. And then Andrea was like, well, hey, could you help cut the seatbelts out of my car and use those to pull me out of the sand? cut the seat belts out of my car and use those to pull me out of the sand and david was like this is weird as hell i'm not doing that and he left wow can you imagine coming upon that like no this is too fucking weird man no thanks bye best of luck with your tires man leave my cooler alone cooler alone. Courtney Campbell is Andrea Green's cousin, and he testified that Andrea approached him later that evening.

And he had a ton of cash on him, and he handed Courtney the keys to the silver Volvo and asked him to get rid of it. And Courtney was like, no. And he threw the keys in the woods. He said, I just sensed that something was wrong, so I didn't go near that car. I didn't touch it. I never seen them with that much money, so it scared me. Courtney admitted that Andrea did most of the talking, but that meanwhile, Danilo was singing. I woke up this morning feeling like money. I don't know that song. I'm not familiar with it. It. I don't know that song.

I'm not familiar with it. It's not a meatloaf hit. That's for sure. Did not appear on Bad Out of Hell. Also not a Tim McGraw one. So, you know, Courtney's like, nope, not getting involved with this. This is too weird. But Danilo and Andrea needed to ditch Rachel's Volvo. They needed to get out of town.

Other people's testimony illustrated that Danilo and Andrea found two guys and offered them $300 to drive them to Orlando. The guys were Dominique Bryant and Darius Beasley. And they were just excited to make an easy $300. So they said yes. I think these guys were kind of young. Mm-hmm. Bryant and Darius Beasley. And they were just excited to make an easy 300 bucks. So they said yes. I think these guys were kind of young. But before they could get to Orlando, Danilo and Andrea wanted to stop at a Jiffy convenience store. What is that?

I don't know. It's a convenience store. But I hear Jiffy and I think peanut butter. That's not a peanut butter. Oh, wait. You know what? Is it? I remember. Hang on.

Let me Google something real quick. Jiffy convenience store. Jiff and Skippy are peanut butter. Jiffy, not a peanut butter. Don't you ever correct me. And Skippy are peanut butter. Jiffy, not a peanut butter. Don't you ever correct me.

Oh, I thought for some reason I had a memory of a Florida convenience station slash gas. I almost said. Convenience store slash gas station? With like Peter Pan on the front. And I thought it was Jiffy. Am I just combining? You're just combining all the peanut butters now. Okay.

In your version. They're all stuck together. The Jiffy peanut butter has Peter Pan on the front of it. Is Peter Pan a different kind of peanut butter? Yes. My God. There's too many kinds of peanut butters. butter? Yes! My God, there's too many kinds of peanut butters.

You're right, now that I'm picturing the Jif can, there's no Peter Pan on it. There sure isn't. It's on the Peter Pan peanut butter can. That's where they keep him. Alright. Anyway, they went to a Jiffy convenience store. Did they get pop?

Actually, they... Oh, fine. Did they get sodas? They got orange soda, which made me crave orange soda. Yeah. I mean, it's so good. Kel loves orange soda. I knew.

You know what? I didn't include that they got orange soda in my notes here because I was like, if I say orange soda, she's going to say Kel loves orange soda. I do. I do. I do. I do. Okay.

Do you want to know what else they bought? Yeah. Some snacks. I'm sorry. No further information on that. But also bleach. Surveillance footage showed Danilo and Andrea in the store. It showed Danilo bringing a bottle of bleach to the counter while Andrea stood nearby sorting through a stack of cash.

At one point, Andrea laid a bunch of the cash on the counter, and of course the cashier was like, holy shit. It made the transaction very memorable. Yeah, it sure did. The cashier told the jury that she remembered the transaction because of the huge stack of cash, and also because of the bleach. Not the orange soda. No, because you know what?

They sell a lot of orange soda at convenience stores. They don't necessarily sell a ton of bleach. Yeah, I would imagine that's probably true. You go to the Peter Pan gas station for that. The Flying J? Is that what you're thinking of? I don't know what I'm thinking of. Also, they paid for all this shit with the marked bills.

Yeah. I mean, I don't know if you put all this together here. I did. I'm already there, just like Lone Star. I'm already there. Take a look around. After they went to the convenience store, the guys who gave them a ride said that Danilo and Andrea wanted to be dropped off at the Volvo. They moved the Volvo a few miles out of the way under a big oak tree and cleaned it with bleach.

They spent about 15 minutes cleaning the Volvo, and then they hopped in the other car and took off to Orlando. As soon as they got there, the two guys who'd agreed to give them a ride were pretty freaked out, so they drove straight back home. One of them told the jury, I already had the feeling something crazy had happened. I just wanted to get down there and get back safe. I was afraid of getting hurt by either of them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

The prosecution showed a T-shirt of Danilo's which had bleach stains on it. Once they got to Orlando, Danilo and Andrea met up with their girlfriends. They went to Macy's and spent $350 on clothes and shoes. Do you have blood on it? It didn't mention blood, so I'm going to go with no. Go with no. To me, that's – I mean, that seems like maybe evidence that he's not the one that pulled the trigger. Oh, that's a good point.

Yes. They didn't – well, I didn't read anything about blood on Andrea's clothes. but that could be because of what comes later okay chaser yep person just lifted her skirt like just like high enough that you could see you know what it's like a little you know what i almost thought of doing as revenge to you for saying that what just lifting my entire dress up. There could be no greater punishment. That would be so uncomfortable.

And if you think I'm wearing a sexy bra, you're wrong and you would find out very quickly. I know that's what you're hoping for. The entire time

we've been sitting here, I've been picturing your sexy bra, Kristen. I don't blame you. Surprising, though, because my storytelling is so good, I'm surprised that that didn't distract you from how hot I am. I'm an excellent multitasker. Are you? Are you? I am. You seem a little scattered, ma'am.

Nope. I can picture your bra and listen to your story at the same time. Anyhow. Any Hooters. They went to Macy's and spent $350 on clothes and shoes. That doesn't seem like that much money. It really doesn't. They also spent $400 at a jewelry store. At one point, I mean,

they used Rachel's credit card. Why would they use her credit card? They must have just known they were going to get caught, I guess. So it was all pretty damning. And the prosecution's case went pretty fast. It had been expected to take much longer, but the defense surprised everyone by not objecting much at all. They didn't take long with cross-examinations either. But when they did, it was to drive home the point that Andrea had been the aggressor. He had been the one who was responsible for Rachel's murder. The defense had promised the jury a short and sweet case, and boy, did they deliver. For their case, they called two witnesses to the stand.

They were both jailhouse informants. One said that Andrea Green had told him that he'd shot Rachel Hoffman. The other said that Andrea told him that he'd shot Rachel Hoffman and he told Danilo that if he didn't drive Rachel's car with her body inside, he'd kill him. That's their whole case? Yep. What do you think? I think it's possible that Andrea did say that, but that doesn't mean it's true. I – so – OK.

Here's what I think. I think based on their histories, I think that Andrea probably was the one who killed Rachel. I don't know that he'd be dumb enough to tell two guys in jail. And I definitely don't think he said, oh, and I threatened Danilo. Yeah, I don't think that part either. I do think it's possible that he'd be like

to try and prove how tough he is. Like, brag about it. You think? Yeah, don't fuck with me. I shot a lady once. like brag about it you think yeah don't fuck with me I shot a lady once in a Volvo you know what I'm thinking and I realize this is wrong

I'm thinking you know you're already locked up on a murder charge so maybe that means you're tough enough but you're already locked up on a murder charge. So maybe that means you're tough enough. But you're right. You've always got to prove yourself in life. Don't make that face at me.

Both of these witnesses were on the stand for less than five minutes. The prosecution didn't even bother cross-examining them, which is, I mean, that's a pretty big insult. But they did call a rebuttal witness. They called a police officer who said that in all of Andrea's interviews with the police, he said that he didn't kill Rachel and he never threatened Danilo's life. Of course he said that. What do you mean? Of course he told the police I didn't shoot her.

Yeah. That's what I mean, Kristen. Well, I'm just saying. The prosecution's saying, who are you going to believe? Yeah. So who are you going to believe? Who are you going to call? You know what I believe.

Let's keep going. Okay. So the defense's case was over in about 15 minutes, and then came closing arguments. Prosecutor Georgia Kappelman showed the jury two pictures, one of Rachel Hoffman smiling and happy and the other of her dead body. Yikes. She said they left her rotting on the side of the road like a piece of garbage. She said that Danilo was as responsible for Rachel's death as if we had a video of him pulling the trigger.

In the defense's closing argument, they said that the only thing Danilo was guilty of was stealing drug money. That's all he'd done. But the jury disagreed. They found him guilty of first-degree murder and robbery with a firearm. The jury recommended that he die by lethal injection. Wow. Yeah. I'm shocked by that.

That is really not that strong of a case for the fucking death penalty. I mean, if you subscribe to the equally culpable camp and you're okay with the death penalty. Yikes. Mm-hmm. But Danilo's sentence would ultimately be in the hands of Judge

Mark Walker, and the judge sentenced him to life in prison. Thank God. Thank God, yeah. Yeah. Okay. You know what? I'm going to keep going. Okay. Okay. Keep on trucking. A few months later, it was time for Andrea Green's trial, and that one took a surprising turn.

At a hearing where he was just expected to get a new attorney, Andrea Green got a deal. He pled no contest to second-degree murder, and in exchange, he got life in prison. This was controversial. He was the one who most people believed had been the ringleader, likely the one who'd pulled the trigger. Rachel's dad wasn't happy about the deal, but Rachel's mom said that she was relieved to not have to sit through another trial. In the midst of all this, Irv and Margie launched – well, okay, I'm going to stop that. What do you think? I think the deal is fine.

The deal doesn't bother me. Does the deal bother you? This whole thing kind of bothers me. Okay. Say more. Keep saying words. I will. I will. me. Okay. Say more.

Keep saying words. I will. I don't like any of this. Because the whole deal was set up by the police? Yeah. Yeah. And Yeah. This Rachel had no business being part

of this. And it makes me wonder if Andrea and Danilo had no business being part of this. And it makes me wonder if Andrea and Danilo had no business being part of this either. You know, is it possible that she came to them wanting to buy a crazy amount of stuff? They were like, this is going to be an insane amount of money for us. A huge payday, yeah. Let's get a whole bunch of aspirin. Let's get whatever. Let's steal a gun from this lady's car when she's in the shop.

I don't know. And the whole thing at that trial about, which, again, we've talked about this a million times, like, you know, if they were part of the crime, it's who cares who pulled the trigger? Everyone's equally culpable. To me, I always care who pulled the trigger. Absolutely. I care who pulled the trigger. Oh, do you?

Do you care now? Do you care now? I do. I think this is a vastly different situation than the case I covered. I mean, it is different. But, like, I feel like it all, it kind of comes down to the same thing of, like, when it comes to the actual murder of a person, are you the one doing the murdering? Or are you the one kind of in the passenger seat and obviously doing a terrible thing? Yeah.

Helping cover up, helping, you know. But to me, those shouldn't be treated the same. So, yeah, it bothers me that we don't know for sure who pulled the trigger. But it certainly seems like Danilo wasn't the one who pulled the trigger. I would agree. I think that the fact that – But he's the one who got life in prison without parole. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I my guess in this situation is that Andrea thought there was a real chance he would get the death penalty. Oh, he was. Yes. And so that's why I I mean, I think it looks like all signs point to that. He was. The ringleader, the shooter, the. Yeah, no.

Andrea did exactly what he should have done here. Yes. I mean, he saw his brother-in-law. The jury recommended the death penalty. So, yeah. I'm surprised he was offered a plea deal. And, yeah, I mean, he was wise to take it. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, this whole case just upsets me yeah okay let's get back to it because there's more so in the midst of all this irvin margie launched a wrongful death lawsuit against the city of Tallahassee. Yes. Yes. Let's hear about that. Yes. It was a long process. It took years. Finally, in January of 2012, the jury was selected. The trial was expected

to last about a month. But the day before it was supposed to start... They fucking settled for an undisclosed amount of money. OK, not quite. Continue the city. Otherwise, shut up. The episode just ends.

The city commission called an emergency meeting. And in that meeting, they voted three to two to settle with Irvin Margie. They'd pay $2.6 million and issue a formal apology. Afterward, Commissioner Gil Ziffer, who voted in favor of the settlement, said, quote, I think it's time for the Hoffman family, the city of Tallahassee, and its citizens to move forward and move on. What? Yeah. Yeah. I included that quote because I thought it was awful and stupid.

It is terrible. Commissioner Mark Mustaine. Did he run that by anybody before he said it? Nope. Not a chance, right? No. I guarantee you this happened right after that emergency meeting. Yeah.

The reporter walked up, talked to him, and this guy was just a fucking idiot. Yeah. Commissioner Mark Mustaine complained to the local newspaper that the settlement amount was too high. Can you imagine? I mean, what? Oh, my gosh. A woman was murdered. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, and she wouldn't have been murdered without the city's involvement in that whole thing. Rachel's dad, Irv, acknowledged that in some ways it was a relief to not go to trial. He knew that at the trial, Rachel's drug use would be the main talking point. Yeah, it would have been. But he'd never been afraid to go to trial. He said, the city had more to lose than we did. We already lost everything. We already lost everything.

In the years since then, Irv and Margie continue to struggle with Rachel's senseless death, and they continue to advocate for CI reform. They've worked to strengthen Rachel's laws and push for similar laws across the nation. Margie created a nonprofit called Rachel Morningstar Foundation, and their mission is to teach young people about the dangers of becoming a CI. Margie and Irv still really struggle with Rachel's death. She was their only child. Margie says that sometimes it's hard to just get out of bed. Yeah.

And Irv visits his daughter's grave, and he can't help but think about all the injustice in this case. Help but think about all the injustice in this case. Officer Ryan Pender, who'd been Rachel's point person in this whole thing and had been the one who'd lost his job, hired an attorney and he got it back. Oh, for fuck's sake. So every year on the anniversary of Rachel's death, Irv calls Ryan's work phone and reminds him that it is the anniversary of his daughter's murder. And he asks Ryan to call him back and Ryan never does. Good for him. For the dad. Yeah.

No, we knew. We knew. You monster. And that's the story of the murder of Rachel Hoffman. Holy shit. Yeah. So I remember, gosh, I feel like I first heard this story on My Favorite Murder like a million years ago. And I was just like so – I couldn't believe it.

I mean it's just such an outrageous story. Yeah. But it's amazing all the things, like, I either didn't remember. I just kind of remembered, like, college student, blah, blah, blah. And I don't know. The deeper I went on this, the more upset I got. Yeah. Initially, I think I just had this impression of of like, well, the reason she is the murdered

CI whose murder like changed things in some way is because, you know, she's middle class, she's white, blah, blah, blah. And I think when I got to the trial stuff, I also got that icky feeling of like, oh, is it also because the men responsible for her murder were black? I think that elevated this too. Right. Absolutely. Yeah. Having said all that, my God, we need rules about CIs. Absolutely. Holy shit. That it should even be a conversation that children shouldn't be CIs, that blows my mind.

Yeah. I mean, it has to be determined by the maturity of the child. Am I right? No. Children just want – you know, in general, I don't like blanket statements, but like how about just no children or CIs? What if a child really wants to be a CI? I don't care. Like every child star ever. The parents are never the ones pushing them. What if a child really wants to be a CI? I don't care. Like every child star ever.

The parents are never the ones pushing them. It's the child who insists. Right. Oh, my gosh. Yep. Brady, you know what I think we should do now? Take some questions from our Discord? Absolutely.

To get in our Discord, all you have to do is join our patreon at the five dollar level or higher and that will get you in there to chitty chat the day away and then on recording days um we sorry i just got distracted by a question we will take some questions and answer them i see fat legs ask kristin have you read the silent patient by alex michaelides you know what? I'm one of those people who I read a book and then I immediately forget it. Hang on. Let me Google.

That sounds really – I have this on hold. Like I'm in line to get this from the library. But I've not yet read it. I want to read it. All the people are saying it's wonderful. I'm just stalling while Kristen looks stuff up. Hmm. I don't think I have read this book.

Okay, well, may I suggest that you put it on your list and we can read it together and talk about it. All right. Very good. This is not a question from the Discord, just a question for me. Have you read The Guest List? By Lucy? Yeah, yeah. Hang on. Holy. Let me look that up read The Guest List? By Lucy Fully.

Let me look that up. The Guest List. I really wish I could remember. You know what? It's my Kindle that is creating all these problems for me because then I don't see the titles. Who's it by? Lucy Fully. Oh, okay. I didn't make that up. I just finished it and I enjoyed

it very much. Yeah, I don't think I've read this one. Okay, put that on your list too. Well, I've just got tons to do. Honk, if you're gay, wants to know how much do I have to pay to see Kristen in her short shorts? No one wants to see that. Short shorts. You're wearing your finest jorts to my bachelorette party. Oh, right.

That's right. That's right. Nicest jorts you ever did see. Oh, wears T-shirts sometimes, says Brandy. I've been re-listening to the entire pod. And at the end of one episode, you made a bold claim that you love all cereal. I need some clarity. Does this include grape nuts?

Let's discuss. I do love grape nuts. I love all cereal. What cereal do I not love? You know what? I would challenge you. That is the thing I am not picky about. Bullshit.

I will eat. You know what we're going to do? We're going to do a cereal taste test? No. We're going to just go to the grocery store. Okay. We're going to walk that aisle. And I will show you that I will eat 95% of the cereal on that aisle.

All right. I love cereal. Okay. I believe you. It's one of my favorite foods. I don't even know what to say to that, ma'am. Well, this is just a ridiculously mean question. What?

Cornhole Sack Tosser asks, Brandy, would you rather eat a burger with a giant slice of onion and on an onion bun that you can't pick off or spend eight hours in your house naked? Oh, what would you do? I'd have to be naked in my house. I can't eat an onion. Do you think you would enjoy it over time? No. But I would be counting down the moments.

Hold on. Until I could cover up. Hold on. Okay. It's eight hours. You're alone in your home. Every door is locked. Every window is blocked. No one's eight hours. You're alone in your home. Every door is locked. Every window is blocked. No one's peeping.

Okay. It's just you. Sounds chilly. No, you set the temperature to whatever you want. Okay. You can throw a blanket over. Okay. All right.

Can I wrap it around me? No. Hey, you can't fashion a robe for yourself. Can I make a toga out of it? No. No. No. You don't think that on like hour four you might relax just a little bit? I doubt it very much.

All right. But I am choosing that option. Old-timey AutoCat wants to know, do you have outfits chosen for Obsessed Fest? Okay, everyone. This is not a drill. Well, when this is released. We'll be days away from Obsessed Fest. We are a huge deal now.

Okay, don't look us in the eye. We were invited to Obsessed Fest. Put on by True Crime Obsessed. We are nervous as hell. Yes. We feel they may have invited us in error. They got us confused with some other hugely popular podcast. And now they're too polite to rescind it. Yeah, to rescind the invitation.

You know, hey, you remember that one, was it like Miss America where Steve Harvey accidentally said, I really felt like they should just give that, you know. Yeah, you give Columbia the, yeah, crown. So that's what I feel they're doing with those. Do you have your outfits picked yet? No. I'm very stressed. I know. I bought a couple of new pairs of jeans and then I just throw a black shirt on with them.

Okay. Well, I have no pants. Okay. So are you going to wear a dress or are you just going to go pantsless? No, I need to go buy pants. Oh, okay. These are the problems you have when you work from home. Yeah.

I haven't had any need for pants. Right. But I feel like we'll be sitting and talking. We'll be sitting on a stage. And I don't want people being distracted. Because I'm not going to wear underwear. That's what I refuse to do. If you think I'm going to wear underwear.

So anyway, what I'm saying is I will be hitting up the Nordstrom rack. Excellent. I'm very happy for you. If you think I'm going to pay will be hitting up the Nordstrom rack. Excellent. I'm very happy for you. If you think I'm going to pay full price for my outfits. Absolutely not. Oh, two raccoons in a trench coat wants to know, Brandy, we know you love Bluey, but is there an age appropriate show you won't let your kids watch just because it annoys you? No. Okay.

So London is very into youtube kids and the thing that i don't like on there is that like okay some of that shit used to be creepy have they cracked that's my concern is that anybody can make a video and post it to YouTube Kids. So anytime I catch her, catch her, like anytime I notice that she's watching something that's not like a produced show, I'm like, maybe let's block that channel. Because I'm just really nervous about what she might be exposed to in like some random family's YouTube uploads. Makes me really nervous. So I'll just be like, hey, can I see your Tabby real quick? And she'll give it to me. And I'm like, block that one. And then it either goes to Blippi, which is like her favorite thing in the world right now, or Cocomelon, which I hate, but she loves.

What's Cocomelon? Oh, it's just all these fucking repetitive songs over and over and over again. Sorry. But she loves it, so she also just discovered Baby Shark, so that's taken over my life. You seem

really happy about it. I like that she likes to sing. She will sing Baby Shark, which is the cutest thing ever. Could you listen to it again and again and again and again if it was her singing it yes okay i don't really want to listen to like and there's like a million versions of it on youtube and there's like there's one that sounds like they're on drugs because it's like the remix it's super sped up but she really likes that one because she can really get it to it yeah Yeah. She kind of bops to it. Yeah, she does. Oh, my gosh.

For sure you don't know this. What? The original Mandelflorn says, hey, Kristen, did you know pit in Swedish is dick? Just thought, you know, just, you know, had to share. Did you know that? In Sweden, your name is Kristen Dix. I did not know that? In Sweden, your name is Kristen Dix. I did not know that. I wonder, what's the Norwegian word for dick?

Because one time I tried to order something that started with a P, I think, at a restaurant in Norway. And the men laughed at me. Because you ordered dicks? I ordered a platter of dicks. And I was the only woman. Great. Then, you know. How did it turn out?

I said, these dicks are disgusting. Y'all got any ranch? Ooh. Sharna asks, Brandy, how long do you think it will take for you to stop calling David your fiancé and your husband? Instead, it's been five weeks for me and I just called my husband my fiance in my head. I almost accidentally call David my husband all the time. Yeah, I mean, you're really living that life. Very much so.

So I think it'll be a very easy transition. Are you nervous about losing your virginity? I'm so nervous for the wedding night. I just don't know if I'm prepared. I'll give you all kinds of tips. Don't worry, Brandy. You won't be uncomfortable at all. You know what we should do now?

Some Supreme Court inductions? I should say so. Get fucking Paige reloaded. And now I'm not anywhere where I need to be anyway to get inducted on this podcast. Inducted?

I was going to say into the Supreme Court but that sounded weird. Oh, it sounded stupid that way. Good thing you saved it. All you have to do is join our Patreon

at the $7 level or higher and then we will induct you at the end of an episode. Today, we're continuing to read your names and favorite cookies. Did I mention last week that I have changed the topic? Yeah, I think you said we would be changing it.

We did change it. It has been changed. So, get off my platter of dicks. Sammy J. Red Velvet. Natalie Abeyta. Hospital Cookies. She says, not what you think.

The hospital I work at has an awesome baker. Okay, the hospital in North Carolina had amazing fried chicken. What? How often were you eating the fried chicken at the hospital? I mean, they had it a certain day of the week. And, like, everybody who went to the... Don't worry about it. Let's keep going.

Tara Hodgson. Nutella stuffed brown butter and sea salt chocolate chip. Oh my. Nicole Kelly. Chocolate chip. Megan Ratbrain Walker. H-E-B seasonal sugar cookie. Heb.

That's a grocery store. Oh, never been there. They don't say H-E-B seasonal sugar cookie. Heb. That's a grocery store. Oh. Never been there. They don't say H-E-B, they say Heb. I think they probably say H-E-B, but I call it Heb. All right. Julie Ewals. Frozen thin mints.

Eli Webster. Any raw cookie dough. Oh. Lisa G. Chocolate dipped shortbread. Taylor Phillips. White chocolate macadamia cookies without the nuts because nuts ruin desserts. Oh.

Oh. Please don't get political. You're saying get your nuts out of my dessert, huh? Fine. Erica Santiago. Raspberry twist that my mother-in-law will only make once a year for Christmas. Jen Graves. NKC Little Store homemade chocolate chip cookies.

All right. Maddie Garcia. Ginger Snap. It is in all caps. Yeah, I had no choice. Marcy May. If kitchen sink cookies hooked up with cowboy cookies, their love child would be my favorite. I don't know what either of those cookies are,

so sure. Sounds like a whole mess of stuff. Sounds like a lot of stuff. Krista Rummage. The triple threat from Oliver's confections. Shannon Chandler. Molasses spice cookie. Monica Dinehart.

Frozen thin mints. Tiffany Williams. Anything my mom bakes. Allie Alvarez. Soft chocolate cookie with sea salt. Tiffany Williams. Anything my mom bakes. Allie Alvarez. Soft. Chunk. Cookie. With sea salt.

I don't think you need to say it softly. Oh, my mistake. She likes a soft cookie. Welcome to the Supreme Court! Thank you, everyone, for all of your support. We appreciate it so much. If you're looking for other ways to support us, please find us on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Patreon.

Please remember to subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen. And then head on over to Apple Podcasts and leave us a five-star rating and review. And then be sure to join us next week. When we'll be experts on two whole new podcasts. Oh, topics. Podcast adjourned. I can't go fast like you. I got one speed.

And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. I got my info from the article The Throwaways by Sarah Stillman for The New Yorker, as well as reporting for the Tallahassee Democrat and the Tampa Tribune. I got my info from an episode of Killer Motive, The Washington Post, People.com, Oxygen.com, The Associated Press, and The Court Record. For a full list of our sources, visit lgtcpodcast.com. Any errors are, of course, ours. Please don't take our word for it. Go read their stuff. Woo-hoo! Do it.