Let's Go To Court! - 230: Erin Andrews' Stalker & a Honeymoon Mystery

Episode Date: October 5, 2022

Sportscaster Erin Andrews was living her dream, traveling all over the country to cover college football games. It was tough to be a woman in a male-dominated industry, but she made a name for herself as a sideline reporter. Then one day, her world changed. A friend called to say that there was naked footage of her on the internet. Erin laughed. She told him that couldn’t be true. But he was right. Erin had been filmed without her knowledge, and the footage was going viral. Then Brandi tells us about Tina and Gabe Watson, whose two-week honeymoon to Australia ended in tragedy. The couple took diving lessons prior to their trip, but Tina had never gone diving in the ocean. Gabe was more experienced, but not by much. On October 22, 2003, the couple dove to view the wrecked SS Yongala. Tina didn’t survive the dive.  And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: “The pain you can’t see,” by Emily Kaplan for Sports Illustrated “Stalker tells all: How I peeped on Erin Andrews,” Page Six “Andrews’ stalker gets 2.5 years in prison,” ESPN “Erin Andrews on life after the nude video,” OWN video on YouTube “ESPN reporter Erin Andrews on stalker’s sentence,” ABC on YouTube “Hotel exec watched Erin Andrews naked in restaurant after court,” Inside Edition “Erin Andrews says hotel could have prevented stalker from filming her,” by Katie Rogers for The New York Times “Erin Andrews civil trial: Day-by-day updates,” by Stacey Barchenger for The Tennessean “Dad: Andrews ‘not the girl we used to know’” by Stacey Barchenger for The Tennessean “Andrews: ESPN made me do TV interview,” by Stacey Barchenger for The Tennessean In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “Mystery In The Deep Blue Sea” episode Dateline “Tina Watson” chillingcrimes.com “Prosecutor: Gabe Watson had financial motive to drown wife on honeymoon” by Crimesider Staff, CBS News “Photo of Drowned Newlywed Is Evidence in 'Honeymoon Killer' Trial” by Nikki Battiste, ABC News “Trial of Alleged 'Honeymoon Killer' Gabe Watson Opens” by Nikki Battiste, ABC News “Questions remain about whether 'Honeymoon Killer' Gabe Watson was let off the hook over the death of his wife Tina Watson” by Patrick Hatch and Tuck Thompson, Herald Sun “'Honeymoon killer' may be innocent, says dive expert” by Peter Patrick, Sydney Morning Herald “Tina Watson Death” michaelmcfadyenscuba.info “Death of Tina WATSON” wikipedia.org YOU’RE STILL READING? My, my, my, you skeezy scunch! You must be hungry for more! We’d offer you some sausage brunch, but that gets messy. So how about you head over to our Patreon instead? (patreon.com/lgtcpodcast). At the $5 level, you’ll get 35+ full length bonus episodes, plus access to our 90’s style chat room!  

One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court. On this episode, I'll be talking about Aaron Andrews' stalker. And I'll be talking about a honeymoon murder mystery. Oh, husband did it. Solved it. Solved it. Oh, Kristen. Oh, shut up. husband did it solved it solved it oh Christina I am here to collect on a bet last week you bet me

your butthole that North Dakota doesn't have the death penalty or that they do have the death penalty and it turns out they do not so hand it over gonna be great to have an extra butthole you're gonna want me to rinse this off first in retrospect i should have never bet my butthole because i only have the one now i have two these are the lessons we learn in life the hard way.

What the hell, North Dakota? I thought North Dakota seemed real death penalty-ish. No. So they have only, like, in the history of the state, ever put, like, eight people total to death. And they, like, abolished the death penalty way early. Like, 1918 or some shit. For real?

Are you just saying this to get a hold of my butthole? I'm not. I'm not. All right. Well, congratulations. On my shiny new butthole. You wish it was new. This thing has some mileage on it.

But nonetheless, you won it fair and square. Brandi, what's going on with you this week? Oh, you know, I'm just prepping for Obsessed Fest. Everyone, we're officially big deals. My anxiety vomited this morning. Yeah, it's true. She did. Well, I guess I wasn't there.

You could be lying about it, but it seems like a weird thing to lie about. Yeah, we have been invited to Obsessed Fest. We will be surrounded by other major podcasts. Yeah. By the time this episode comes out, we will have already appeared. So maybe we embarrass ourselves and that's the end of this podcast. This might be the very last episode. Today, before Brandy came over, I ran out to a dress store and got some new things to wear.

Yeah. And I told the lady, you know, the worst thing that could happen to me at this convention is I die. What? I was very nervous. I was just saying things. That's true, though. Well, I mean, I think that's the worst thing that could happen any day. Sure, sure. Well, I mean, today I evidently lost vomited all over. I told her I'm not a public speaker. It could happen any day. Sure.

Sure. Well, I mean, today I evidently lost my butthole. That's true. It's only going up from here, Kristen. Do you want to talk about our Patreon? I do want to talk about our Patreon. Oh, my gosh. It's so cool.

It's this thing we do. And you should totally check it out. Well, if that didn't work, I don't know what will. No, if you want to support the show, if you want extra bonus episodes, if you want all kinds of goodies. Yeah. Come on over to our Instagram. Goodies on goodies on goodies. We got cards.

We got stickers. We got autographs. We got bonus episodes. We got Zoom calls. We got ad-free episodes. We got hoes. We can find all in different area codes. Area codes. Area codes.

Area codes. No. No hosts included. I mean, there are definitely some hosts. Also, contrary to what we may have said on an episode. Oh, no. You can't see our tits on Patreon either. Everyone, this is a true story. A while back. Perhaps it's unprofessional to share this story, but I think it's funny.

I think it's funny, too. A while back, someone signed up for our Patreon. And, you know, normally when people sign up for the Patreon, we've got a typical look for our listener. This person broke the mold. Broke the mold, for sure. He was an older gentleman, didn't seem super computer savvy. And, like, he signed up at the $10 level. Yeah.

And immediately messaged us and was like, not happy. How do I unsubscribe? And I was like, okay, no big deal. This guy just, like, I don't know. Accidentally signed up to our Patreon. So I told him how to unsubscribe. And Brandy, little sleuth that she is. Brandy, what do you think happened there?

I think that this gentleman listened to an episode where we jokingly said at the $10 level, you can see our tits. And then was very displeased to learn that that was not truthful. Frankly, I'm offended. These puppies are $12 tits. Easy. Easy. Easy. Anyway, apologies to anyone who was misled by our jokes

uh do you know anything about the aaron andrews case a little bit well now you now you're looking all cagey what's well i'm wondering yeah if i Does it involve people? Sure does. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And people. Sorry, that was so stupid. Anyway, shout-outs to reporting from the Tennessean. That was very helpful.

And also some interviews she did with Oprah and Megyn Kelly. But anyway, you know, what can I do? What was that noise again? That's, you know. Yeah. Megyn Kelly really scares me. Really? Yeah.

I mean, there's a certain type of skinny blonde lady who just rubs me the wrong way. Okay. Boy, oh boy. Let's talk about sports, Brandi. Yeah. Tell us all about sports, Kristen. Boy, oh boy. Let's talk about sports, Brandi. Yeah. Tell us all about sports, Kristen. Oh, I will. Just sit tight.

Specifically, let's talk about sportscaster Erin Andrews. Erin's family moved around a bit when she was really young, but they settled in Florida. Florida. Florida. Which is how we pronounce it in the Midwest. Her dad was an investigative reporter for a local TV station, and her mom was an elementary school art teacher. Erin grew up loving sports. She was obsessed.

In particular, she loved football. So after she graduated from the University of Florida, she went to work as a sports reporter for Fox Sports. Erin loved her job. Why are you smiling? I like Erin Andrews. She's on, you know, the sidelines a lot. We watch the Chiefs games. What do you like about her? I don't know. I just like her. Yeah, she seems very real and relatable. I've never seen her on the sidelines. I've just seen her in Oprah and Megyn Kelly and all that. Anyway, she definitely stood out. She's a woman in a male-dominated industry, and she's a beautiful woman.

She has to be because she's on TV. That's right. Those are the rules. She's got the long blonde hair, the perfect teeth, the perpetual tan, the works, as we call it. It's what we call the loaded baked potato. Nobody's calling it that. That's what they call it. So I, in preparation for...

Did you get the loaded baked potato? Well, I got my nails done. I got my lashes done. I did my hair. Like, I colored my hair. I said that I got a tune-up. Did you get a spray tan? I didn't. I almost did. Yeah. Honestly, if I'd had more time to get myself a full tune-up, if I hadn't just been, like, sweaty McNervous and, like, procrastinating.

Next time we're invited to a big thing, I'm going to get a whole new face. That's right. After a few years at Fox Sports, Erin got a job at ESPN, where she eventually became a sideline reporter for ESPN College Football Saturday Primetime, which is too long a name. That's way too long of a name. Right? Yeah. Can you talk to the football guys?

I mean, they don't really listen to me, but sure. All right. Erin was doing really well in her career. She was rising through the ranks. But being a woman who covers men's sports can be challenging. Erin was always under an additional lens of scrutiny. If someone asked her a sports question and she stumbled or didn't have a quick answer, people might assume that she didn't deserve her job. They'd think she was just some airhead on the sidelines. And so she had to work really hard, but that was fine. Again, she loved sports. She was dedicated to her career.

She traveled a ton for work. She basically lived out of hotel rooms. And that wasn't a big deal. That was just part of the job. She was comfortable with it. But that all changed in the summer of 2009 when Aaron got a phone call from a friend. He said, there's a naked video of you and it's all over the Internet. Mm-hmm. And Aaron laughed. She's like, no, there's a naked video of you and it's all over the internet.

And Erin laughed. She's like, no, there's not. Nobody has naked footage of me. It's not possible. Yeah. And her friend was crying and he said, Erin, you have to look. So Erin went over to her laptop. She opened it up, searched for this video that she knew couldn't be her. And she only watched for two

seconds because she knew it was her. There was a video of her naked in a hotel room and it had gone viral. Erin freaked out. She got off the phone with her friend and called her mom and dad. She was screaming. She was so traumatized that when her dad answered the phone, he thought she'd been injured in a car accident. This was a nightmare, and she didn't know how it had happened. It was such a violation to have footage of her naked body online. She felt like everything she'd worked for was slipping away. online. She felt like everything she'd worked for was slipping away. She figured, my career is over. Nobody's ever going to take me seriously again.

And in a way, she was right. Millions of people watched the video of Erin naked in her hotel room getting ready for work, and they didn't see her as the victim of anything. This was clearly just a publicity stunt. Really? People thought that? A lot of people thought it was a publicity stunt. Oh my gosh! Yeah, she was in on this whole thing. And sure, it looked like it had been filmed through an altered peephole in a hotel room door without her knowledge, but that was just an act.

No. No, it wasn't. No. Erin was humiliated. She hired lawyers to try to get the video taken down, but that was really hard to do. They'd get it taken down and someone would repost it. They'd get it taken down and someone would repost it. She later said that law enforcement told her that she just had to deal with the fact that this was never going to come off the Internet.

That's terrible. Media outlets covered this story, and when they did, some of them ran stills from the video, which is just fucking outrageous. Uh, yeah. The video got millions of views. As more and more people watched the video, Erin dealt with nasty comments from people who came to football games. They'd shout things to her about having seen her naked while she was trying to do her job. I watched one of these videos. This fucking asshole shouts to her, like, about wanting an autograph or something. And she said something like, oh, hey, you know, later because she was working or whatever.

And he was like, hey, I saw your video. Oh, my God. And so she goes over to him. She was like, what'd you say? Yeah. He's like, nothing. Yeah. She's like, what'd you say? Yeah. He's like, nothing. Yeah. She's like, what'd you say?

Yeah. Fucking asshole. Anyway. So people would shout things to her at her job. They'd harass her on social media. It all really impacted her. She was humiliated and scared. She still didn't know who'd done this to her.

And initially, she was mad at herself. She wished she'd put on a bathrobe after she'd gotten out of the shower instead of being naked for a few minutes alone in her hotel room. I know. Okay. For me, obviously, that's what I do. I know. It would never happen to you. That's what I do.

But no, the average person, yes, they are alone in their hotel room. Of course, they're just walking around naked. Sure. Over time, that anger shifted. She wanted that video gone. She wanted to put an end to the ridiculous narrative that she'd done this to herself. So Erin and her dad went to meet with the FBI to see what could be done. And the FBI agents told her that they needed her to watch the tape with them. They said that if they were going

to catch the person who did this to her, they needed her help figuring out where she was staying when she'd been taped. Erin didn't want to watch the video, but it was the only way. They started playing the video and they covered up her body and said, you know, OK, just look at the room. Just tell us what you can remember. And Erin puked. That would be terrible. Yeah. You look like you're about to puke just hearing this. It's terrible.

Yeah. But that day they did figure out where she'd been when she was secretly filmed. She'd been at the Nashville Marriott at Vanderbilt University. So that answered that question, but they still needed to figure out who this creep was. Erin was terrified that the person would come to her house in Atlanta. She was, oh my gosh. She was afraid that as she was on air, she would burp while she was talking. Which is silly because that could never happen to anybody.

She was also afraid that this was someone she knew. Right. The investigation went on for a few months and then they caught the guy. His name was Michael David Barrett. He was an insurance executive from the suburbs of Chicago and he was a stranger. The investigation revealed that Michael David Barrett had stalked Erin at least three times. He'd stalked her to three hotels in three different states. And each time he found out where she was staying, he got her room number. Then he used a hacksaw to alter the peephole on her door.

And he filmed her without her knowledge through that altered peephole. Oh, my gosh. He'd taken videos of her in Columbus, Ohio, in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, in Nashville, Tennessee. In one of the videos, you could hear him breathing. Ooh. Uh-huh. In another video, you can hear people walking behind him, which like, what the fuck? People see a guy? Yeah.

The Nashville video lasted four and a half minutes. He later admitted that he'd gotten the room next to hers and listened for the sound of her shower running and then came over and filmed her when he knew she'd just gotten out of the shower. Oh my gosh. Mm-hmm. He'd tried to sell the videos to TMZ, but TMZ didn't buy them. What? Nothing. What?

What? Nothing. What? What? I didn't know TMZ had a moral compass. Oh, bullshit. Here's the thing. I'm willing to bet they are smart enough to know we will get the pantsuit off of us if we buy this. Yeah.

Pants sued, not pantsuit off of us. Andants sued, not pantsuit. And they just bought that pantsuit. It's an Ann Taylor one. It's not from the loft. OK, so they're not just at the full price store. Yes. No. So, yeah, I think they declined because they didn't want to get sued. Also, I think, is it too much to ask that if someone comes to you and says they have this kind of footage of somebody, could you pick up the phone and let the police know?

Or even just let the person know. Yeah. Like, hey, I'm calling to follow up. So-and-so says they have a video of you. Mm-hmm. Is this, yeah. Yeah. Ugh. Yeah. Ugh. Yeah.

So yeah, TMZ didn't want to buy them, so he posted the videos online himself. The FBI arrested Michael in October of 2009. But Erin Andrews was not the only woman he'd done this to. A memo filed by the prosecution said that he'd uploaded 16 videos of other women to an online account using the exact same tactics he'd used to film Erin. Wow. To an online account.

One source made that seem like it was not quite YouTube, but like another site. Photo bucket. Yeah. Everyone's favorite photo bucket. Wait, what was the other one? Fish something. Flickr? No.

I said fish. I know. I was thinking you're wrong. I was thinking like. Something fish. Fish something. Look, we don't have a goddamn thing. We've got to drive to Columbus tomorrow.

That same memo also said that he'd conducted 30 background checks on different women. By the way, a background check is a great way to find someone's address. Neat. Yeah. A couple months after Michael's arrest, he took a plea deal. He pled guilty to interstate stalking. What do you think he should be sentenced for this? Oh.

Not what do you think he got. It's what do you think he should get. A couple years. Okay. He gets probation, right? Two and a half years plus three years of probation, $5,000 in fines, and about $7,000 in restitution. Yeah. It's funny. You and I feel differently about this.

I think he should go away for way longer. Yeah, so do i i think i undershot it based on my knowledge of sentencing but yeah i i would have been happier with like five years well what do you want him to go to i want him to go to north dakota where they put no i can't talk about North Dakota. I lost my butthole. Lost your butthole there. Last time I talked about that.

It's a huge violation. It's a huge violation. He's clearly done this to multiple people. Yeah. He put this online where it will haunt her forever. Forever, yeah. Yeah, I don't think two and a half years is it. Yeah. Aaron Andrews was livid. She told the judge that she fears for her life every time

she enters a hotel. She asked for a harsher sentence. But U.S. District Judge Manuel Real said that he'd given Michael the maximum sentence allowable by law. Really? Yeah, I mean, that's what he said. Another source said that he could have given him five years. He noted that Erin would be suffering from this incident for the rest of her life, but said, quote, there is no life sentence that can be imposed upon him except his own guilt. And, you know, Michael claimed to feel. That makes me feel way better. Hey, no, you are going to feel better because Michael felt really guilty, OK? Did he?

He cried in court. He said that he would spend the rest of his life regaining the respect of his friends and family. He said, quote, There are no words to tell Ms. Andrews how sorry I am for what I've done to her. I hope someday she can forgive me. For the record, she does not forgive him. Years later in an interview, she said, I have to relive it all the time. It's shaped who I am as a person. It messed with my family.

It hurt my mom and dad so bad, and it still does. And you don't get any sort of pass for doing that. Yeah. But I ask you, Brandy, did he get a pass? Michael's lawyer wants you to know that this whole thing has been really tough on him. Oh, I'm sure. It's just the worst. Hold on. Hey, he lost his career, he lost his fiance, and he lost his life savings. Because of what he did. Yeah, he knows he's at fault. I don't feel sorry for him. Can you imagine being the fiance?

And I don't feel sorry for him. Can you imagine being the fiance? No. Talk about a bullet dodged. My God. Wait, do you need a minute to recover? I don't. I'm all set. Wow, you really?

Okay. She's as cold as ice. But this wasn't over. The investigation into Michael's crimes had revealed a lot of unsettling information. The investigation into Michael's crimes had revealed a lot of unsettling information. And one big piece of it was how easily he'd been able to find out what rooms Aaron had been staying in. Yeah. And get the room right next door to her.

Yeah. What the fuck, right? Yeah. Tell us about that. How'd that happen? Oh, shit, I didn't prepare anything. My case ends here. Erin felt that the hotels had been way too lax with that information. Yes. So in 2011, she looked herself in the mirror and she said, let's go to court. She sued Michael Barrett and she also sued Marriott International, the West End Hotel

Partners, and Windsor Capital Group. Those last two companies own and manage the Nashville Marriott. She sued them for negligence leading to emotional distress and invasion of privacy. But this case took years to go to trial. In that time, Michael was released from prison. A judge dismissed Marriott International as a defendant. But finally, in March of 2016, Erin Andrews' civil suit got underway in front of a jury of nine women and five men. The trial lasted two weeks and it was super emotional. Every day when Erin walked into court, she told herself to stay strong, to be the Green Bay Packer offensive line and say, I'm going to crush that D line and I'm going to go after them. Whatever the fuck that means. You know what all that means, right, Kristen? I mean, I know those little green guys.

Look, I know it means you got. Look, I know what it means. You've got to be tough. Okay, very good. The big question is... Who's the quarterback for the Green Bay Packers? Aaron Rodgers. Yes! Suck on that! That's very good.

I'm very impressed. Yeah, ask me anything, dude. I'm a cool girl, so I know about sports. I've always described myself as more of a tomboy. Oh, yeah. I never had a lot of female friends growing up because, you know, I just really identified more with the guys, you know. That's who I've always been, as you know. Yeah, very much so.

All right. The big question at this trial was, who was to blame for what happened to Aaron? In opening statements, Mark Dedman, the attorney for Marriott, said that all of the blame goes to the stalker, Michael Barrett. He was the one who schemed to defraud the hotel. He did this. No, the hotel gave out information they should never have given out. Did they? Did they really, Brandy?

How did he get it? He was a schemer. He was very sophisticated, okay? He was an insurance executive, traveled like 200 days a year. The Marriott was no match for this man. Great. Is that not terrifying? Like, I think a lot of people who stay in hotels are probably frequent travelers.

Yeah. You're not equipped to deal with, like, frequent pervs. Frequent pervs? You get frequent perv miles? You get frequent perv certificates. Oh, what do you use those for no i mean that's like when you're good at sniffing them out and so like you go up to a hotel wouldn't that be great you see like a wall of certificates it's like oh you went to the cornell school of management and also you

got your perv certificate so you're gonna sniff out the pervs around here it doesn't mean you're a certified perv obviously that's a different thing. Oh, my mistake. I thought a perv sniffer was a guy who smelled ladies underwear. Stop it. Anyway. Another big question was, had Aaron Andrews really been harmed by this incident? Mark pointed out that Aaron Andrews' career had been thriving ever since the videos were posted. Aaron's a-

Fuck off! Go fuck yourself! Agreed. Seriously? Oh yeah. Oh yeah, that's what he argued. Holy shit. Yeah, I don't know how you live with yourself.

I actually helped her out. Think about all the good things that happened. Aaron's attorney, Randall Kennard, was like, wow, Aaron was humiliated by those videos, but she chose to continue in her career. Yeah, that's that's it.

He also said that the hotel shared some of the blame for what happened to Erin. He said that the staff at the hotel confirmed Erin was staying in their hotel. They revealed what room she was staying in. When Michael requested to book the room right next to her, they didn't alert her. Aaron's legal team called a lot of Marriott employees to the stand. One said that it was policy not to give out people's room numbers. No shit. No shit. It could be very dangerous. Well, and my experience is that even when they check you in, they don't tell you your room number. They just hand you, like. Yeah, they do it like a magician.

Slide it across the table. Is this your car? Another said that staff was allowed to confirm if guests were staying at the hotel, which I don't like that. Why would they need to confirm that? Yeah. A woman who worked at a reservation call center said that she sent the hotel information indicating that Michael had requested the room next to Aaron's. Then Aaron's legal team called a private investigator who specializes in hospitality, industry security and liability. He said that identifying Aaron Andrews as a guest and releasing her room number was the, quote, cardinal sin of hospitality.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not in hospitality and I could have told you that. Wow. Are you saying that you're on the same level as a private investigator who specializes in hospitality, industry, security and liability, Brandy? Don't you dare put yourself on this man's level. Only on that one. One little topic. He also said that since the hotel was completely booked, they should have had two security guards on staff and had video surveillance on floors with guest rooms.

Yeah, I mean, these are the things you might expect. But the hoe... That hoe didn't have any of it. Oh, my God. I don't know why I paused in the middle of that word. Yeah, the hoe didn't have either. Instead, they had one overnight security guard, and he doubled as the room service delivery guy. Really? Yes.

Erin's parents also took the stand. Her dad, Steve, talked about the impact the video had on Erin. He said that it had scared her and made her afraid of crowds. He said she hung blankets over her windows. He said, she's mad, she's scared, she's terrified, she's depressed, she cries, she's full of anxiety. She's a very, very changed person. She's not the girl we used to know at all. He said he was floored when he found out that the hotel had given Michael Barrett Aaron's room number

and that he'd stood outside her door filming her for four and a half minutes. He said, I thought to myself, if this guy had been a killer, she'd be dead. Aaron's mom, Paula, testified. She was asked about Erin's career after the incident, and she said, I almost think she's trying to compensate and keep in control of that aspect of her life. Through no fault of her own, she lost control. And by golly, she's going to show the world she can still make a living and be passionate about what she loves. And I'm proud of her.

At some point, Erin's legal team told her that they needed to play the video for the jury. And she was like, well, you're going to black out my body, right? And they told her they didn't think that was the way to do it. Really? Yeah, they said they wanted the jury to feel the magnitude of what was done to her, and so they needed to see the full video. I do get that argument, but... I do, too.

Yeah. I think it lessens the impact if you don't show it. So they played two of the videos in court and Aaron left the courtroom crying. They did clear things out quite a bit. I mean, but yeah, that'd be horrible. Yeah. A computer scientist testified that more than 16.8 million people had seen the videos or still images between July 2009 and January of 2016.

Oh, my gosh. Erin took the stand, and she cried a lot. She said that the hotel staff never told her that a man was trying to stay in the room next to her. She said if she'd known, she would have called the police. Yeah. She said, this could have been stopped. The Nashville Marriott could have just called me and said, we're putting this man that requested to be next to you.

Is this OK? And I would have called the cops and we would have gotten him. I'm so angry. I'm so mad. Yeah. Not just could have been stopped. This should have been stopped. Absolutely.

Yeah. On cross-examination, Marriott's attorney, Mark Dedman, suggested that the videos had actually helped Erin's career. He asked her to confirm some of the commercials and endorsements she'd gotten since the video came out. That's ridiculous. Reebok. Degree deodorant. Diet Mountain Dew. And Erin was like, yeah, my career is going well. Mm going well. You fuckwad. Yeah, no kidding.

I don't think Aaron Andrews said the fuckwad part. I think she thought it. He asked her if people thought more or less of her since the video went viral. And she said she reads every day that people think less of her, but that some people think more of her for filing the lawsuit. She said, I think people think I'm brave for standing up to the Marriott. Bazing! Yeah.

She also testified that her former employer, ESPN, had told her that they wouldn't let her go back on the air until she'd done an interview about the video. Really? Yeah. Not cool. No. That's ridiculous. You're the victim of a crime. Yeah. She said she'd chosen to do an interview with Oprah even though she didn't want to. She said she sobbed before the interview and that her parents encouraged her and that, you know, Oprah was very comforting. I expect nothing less. Have you gotten any texts from Oprah lately?

She's constantly texting me. So annoying. I just think that's awful texting me. So annoying. I just think that's awful. Yeah. When it was the defense's turn, they called a professor for the University of Houston's Hospitality Management College. They don't give out PERV certificates there. No PERVv certificates there. No perv sniffers there. He testified that the hotel staff didn't violate any of the procedures that they had in place in 2008.

How? Right? Okay. Right. OK. Then that's a huge policy gap. That is a huge problem. Yeah.

Then your policies are wrong. Yeah, that's true. Then your policies are wrong. Yes. And also you're fucking dumb. Yes. How could there not be a policy against this? An executive for the hotel said that the hotel had performed very well in a secret inspection that Marriott performed three months before this incident.

That's so great for them. Randy, don't be sarcastic. Oh, the secret shopper liked that? That's great. So glad to hear that. Turns out, though, the secret shopper liked that? That's great. So glad to hear that. Turns out, though, the secret shopper was a perv. He was like, well, it's so easy to get a woman's room number in this hotel. I love it.

That's ridiculous. Jacqueline DeMent was the person who checked Michael into the hotel, though, you know, obviously she didn't specifically remember him. But she said that she wouldn't have seen that he had requested to have the room next to Aaron Andrews. If she had seen that request, she would have checked with Aaron first before putting him in the room next to her. Bullshit. Bullshit. He did not accidentally get the room next to Aaron Andrews when he specifically requested it. Not a fucking chance. I don't believe that for a second. You ready to get more angry? I mean, no.

So this was a pretty big deal trial with a lot of media coverage and about halfway through, This was a pretty big deal trial with a lot of media coverage. And about halfway through, this happened. A guy named Neil Peskind, who is an executive for the West End Hotel Partners, which owns the Nashville Marriott, was in Nashville to testify for the defense. And one evening after court, he and two friends went to the Margo Cafe and Bar in Nashville for dinner. I almost said for diner. I thought you almost said dunner. Here's the thing.

I was like, nope, it's French. Don't pronounce the T on Margo. And then I mispronounced dinner. You did get the deaf ones. Let's celebrate wins here. Absolutely. let's celebrate wins here absolutely so they're getting dinner and a waitress named nicole branigan said that one of the guys pulled out his phone and watched the video of aaron andrews naked out in the open in this fucking restaurant what and the med made comments about her body she said she overheard neil say that if the trial was going to cost him millions, he was going to watch it and show everyone.

Holy shit. She said we had to ask him to stop. It was disgusting and horrifying. Yeah, that is disgusting and horrifying. Nicole was super fired up about this, and she tweeted about the incident. She tweeted to several media outlets. Wow. And the next day, when the story broke, the civil trial was briefly delayed.

Because holy shit. Yeah. Can you fucking imagine? No. Later that day, Neil issued a statement. And it's going to clear it all up. So just calm down. Neil, and it's going to clear it all up. Oh, okay, great.

So just calm down. Neil, lay it on us. I was at a private dinner meeting with friends. They brought up the allegations, and they started viewing the video. I asked them to stop, and while they did so, it was not as quickly as I had hoped. This incident has been blown into something it was not. I would never disrespect Ms. Andrews and what she has been through. This is a very unfortunate situation that should not be a reflection on West End Hotel Partners or to our commitment to the issues in

this case surrounding what happened to her. I sincerely apologize for my participation in what happened. Okay. More. It was clearly, you know, just one of those really innocent things where you're at a dinner table in public watching a video of a non-consenting woman and commenting on her body. Yeah. You know, you're just the good guy being like, hey, friends. No. Stop.

Stop. I am horrified. Yeah. Yeah. Stop. I am horrified. Yeah. Yeah, okay. So the trial went back underway, and Michael Barrett, a.k.a. the biggest creep of all, didn't want to testify. Ultimate perv sniffer. That almost makes it sound prestigious. I don't like the word ultimate in there.

He didn't want to testify in this case. Okay, great. I'm very happy for you. But a judge made him. And that was tough on him because he thought consent mattered, you know. It is so funny to me that he's like, would rather not yeah like oh whatever you want michael they played a video of his deposition and i'm going to read quite a bit of it just because just because yeah i needed to make a business trip to Nashville. It was just on the calendar, and so it was just a convenient time to be there.

When I checked in, it was morning, and the hotel was very busy, so they said, the room you requested is not available. I got something to eat. I went down to the restaurant. There's a house phone in the restaurant, so I picked up the house phone and called the operator and asked, can I have Aaron Andrews' room? And they connected me. On the house phone, it shows a room number, so I knew what room she was in. I went to that floor, the 10th floor, I believe. I had noticed the maid was cleaning the room next to her room. That person was checking out, so I went back to the front desk and told

them, that room is open. Can I check into that room? They said, let's check and see, and went back. And after a few minutes, they came back out and they checked me into that room. I went to my room. As I was coming to the room, I could actually hear her talking on the phone, so I knew it was the right room. What are these walls made out of? I dealt with some things in my room. I heard the door slam close next to me, saw it was her leaving her room. I took her door's peephole out, altered it, put it back in, and left shortly after. I used a hacksaw to cut off the thread, so it was basically a plug, and I put it back in. I went back to the room, and unfortunately for both of us, I could hear that the shower was on in her room when I walked by. I'm sorry.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Unfortunately for both of us? Oh, yeah, because they're both victims here. Excuse me? Well, he regrets this terribly, so, you know. Okay. Yeah.

He's just so ashamed. Yeah. Great. What the fuck? I waited until the shower went off. Then I pulled out the plug on her door and waited for the opportunity. I waited for a matter of ten seconds. I waited for her to be visible.

It goes on from there, but I think that, you know, some of it you take it or leave it. He also admitted that he'd filmed about ten other women at other hotels by doing the same thing. Michael's version of events really fired up the attorneys. In closing arguments, Aaron's legal team was like, you can't listen to that. Documents show that he requested a room next door to Aaron. Also, even if he did use an administrative phone at the hotel, the hotel is still in trouble because they never should

have given him access to that phone. Yeah. I agree with that. Yeah. But the hotel's attorneys were like, nope, nope, nope. Believe it, baby. This dude was an insurance executive. He traveled 200 nights a year. He knew how to fix the system. He knew how to deceive this

poor little hotel. This was all his fault. Yeah. Aaron had sued them for $75 million. Good for her. But her attorney suggested that the jury punish the defendants by charging them $1 for every person, past and future, who watches that video of Aaron. I like it when attorneys do this. Yeah, me too. who watches that video of Erin. I like it when attorneys do this. Yeah, me too. He said,

this is a post-traumatic stress disorder problem for which there is no post. She knows people are looking at her naked on the internet every day. Ultimately, the jury found Michael 51% responsible and the hotel management company, Windsor Capital Group, and the hotel owner, West End Hotel Partners, 49 percent responsible. They awarded Erin Andrews $55 million.

How does that break down, though, if they're assigning blame to? Oh, that's how they usually do it. Right. But so is he is. You're worried about how she's going to get that. Yes. OK. More on that. Oh, right now. Great. I'm ready. So they awarded her fifty five million dollars. Yeah. That was later settled for an undisclosed amount. Great. Wonderful. And the New York Post evidently called up Michael's dad and asked him how Michael was planning to pay what he owes Aaron Andrews. And Michael's dad said he can't afford $100, let alone $28 million. If he could, he wouldn't be living in my basement. So I enjoyed that. And by the way, since everything is is awful you should know that a couple months

after this trial ended aaron andrews was diagnosed with cervical cancer did you know that i did i was like i didn't know that i was like holy shit that's too much yeah um she's doing fine now but good lord yeah and that is the story of aaron andrews. Holy shit. It is chilling to me. Yeah. That he was able to do that so easily because I'm sorry he doesn't seem like a criminal mastermind. He seems like a fucking dumbass. Yes.

I would agree. Wow. What would you do if there was a naked video of yourself? Would you just die? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Here's another thing people were saying.

People were saying like, oh, she looks so hot. She's hot. What does she care? Right? That's what people. Yeah. Yeah.

It's still her body. Right. It's still something she did not agree to. Yes. What's wrong with people? I remember that being like, oh, I don't know what's upsetting. She looks really hot.

Oh, good. I'm glad you got a boner. That's all she was going for. Good Lord. Oh, my gosh. You ready? You need like a little breaky break? You need more water?

You need another coffee? I do need more water. Don't talk to me like I'm a big baby. You need to a poopy? No pure mother nature. Sorry for shaking my tits at you. Getting you all distracted. Never apologize for that.

Very good. I won't. You want to talk about a murder mystery? I do. Is it actually a mystery or is it like pretty obvious? Why don't you be the judge? Oh, great. I'm very judgmental, so that'll come naturally.

Okay. A couple of shout outs to an episode of Dateline that I read and did not watch. Chillingcrimes.com and an episode of the podcast Case File. Okay. Tina Thomas met Gabe Watson when they were both students at the university of Alabama at Birmingham. Tina was actually engaged to another guy at the time, but Gabe asked Tina out anyway and she declined at some point though,

reportedly because her mother, Cindy Thomas didn't approve of her fiance, Tina actually called off her engagement. And then that New Year's Eve, she and Gabe wound up at the same party again. And Gabe asked Tina out. And this time she accepted. They officially began dating in January of 2001. Tina and Gabe both went on to graduate from the University of Alabama and each started their careers. Gabe went to work at his father's company as a bubble wrap salesman.

What? I have so many questions. Doesn't bubble wrap sell itself? Sell itself. That's what I think. Did he go door to door? What are the needs for bubble wrap? Are you selling to companies, I'm assuming?

And are there different types of bubble wrap? What year was this? 2002-ish. All right. I approve. Okay. And Tina went to work as a manager of the children's section at what sounded like a very fancy department store because it was at a Galleria, which is a fancy mall. What's the name of the department store?

I found it in one article and then could never find it again. So how dare you ask? Belks? No. That's not very fancy. It started with a P. Anyway. Pennies.

Ah, yes. Yeah, very fancy JC pennies. Too rich for my blood. All the while, their relationship grew more serious. At some point, Gabe asked for Tina's father, Tommy Thomas. No. He sounds like a fucking train. Well, is his name Thomas Thomas?

Yes, that's so silly. That shouldn't be allowed. It should not. Anyway, he asked Tommy Thomas' permission to marry his daughter. And one article said that Tommy... Can you imagine asking a man to ask Tommy Thomas for permission to do anything? It's for permission to do anything. And according to one article, like, Tommy didn't really give permission, but he also didn't really say no.

And so Gabe took that as a two thumbs up. And he bought a ring. But what he did with that ring. What do you think of the asking for permission thing? Yeah, I think it's really old school. David didn't ask my parents' permission, but I was 32 years old and knocked up.

33 years old. So one didn't really need to ask. Anyway, so he goes and he buys a ring Anyway. So he goes and he buys a ring. And then what he did next really rubbed Tina's friends and family the wrong way. So one day, Tina comes over to Gabe's house and there was this bag from a jewelry store sitting on top of his TV. So it's like 2002.

So it's not a flat screen just for everybody wondering how a bag sitting on top of the TV. So it's like 2002. So it's not a flat screen just for everybody wondering how a bag's sitting on top of the TV. Anyway. And Tina sees it and she kind of walks over to it and she acts like she's going to look in it. And Gabe

said something to the effect of you look in there and I'll take it back. Ew. And then that bag sat in that same spot on that TV for like the next six months. Ew. Yeah. Like he's such a prize.

She needs to behave herself. So to Tina's friends and family, this seemed like he was like dangling the promise of a proposal in front of her like a fucking carrot. That's so gross. Yes. Also, they're completely right. Yeah. But according to Gabe, he was just waiting for the right time. He wanted the proposal to be special, to be perfect.

He wanted the proposal to be special, to be perfect. And then that doesn't explain why you left the ring on top of your TV. Yeah. That perfect time finally came Easter Sunday, 2003. Gabe hid the ring inside of a plastic Easter egg, and Tina accepted his proposal. They set the date for that fall, October 11, 2003. Tina's parents weren't, like, super thrilled with her choice of partner. They thought their relationship was a little one-sided.

Was her mom wishing she hadn't ran off the other guy? So actually, her mom flat out told Tina that she didn't like Gabe. And Tina was like, you're not even giving him a chance. You never give anyone a chance. Uh-oh. And so then she just, like, shut her mouth. I mean, yeah. Yeah.

Uh-oh. Yeah. So they really thought the relationship was really one-sided. It seemed like Tina was always doing what Gabe wanted to do. For example, scuba diving lessons. Oh, no. Is this Death by Scuba? Is it? Okay.

When Tina and Gabe met, he was a certified scuba diver. And he even held a certification as a rescue diver. And he told Tina that if their relationship was going to work, if they were going to grow together as a couple, she would need to participate in his interests. And so at the beginning of 2003, Tina began taking diving lessons. If you want to be with me, you've got a scuba. Yeah, that's right. That is dumb.

I'm scuba to the core, so you better be scuba too. No, we're two people. Yeah. We can have different interests. Also, he really liked to fish, and he told her she needed to fish too. Well, fishing is boring. What'd she force him to do? Yeah.

All right. Yep. This seemed really out of character to Tina's friends because they said Tina didn't even like getting her hair wet in the swimming pool. They joked that she did this like silly little dog paddle to keep her head above water. Sure. Tina's parents, however, were more than just a little concerned about taking diving lessons. They worried it was actually dangerous for her. When Tina was a child, she was diagnosed with paroxysmal supraventricular tachycardia or PSVT.

supraventricular tachycardia or PSVT. So this is a heart condition that causes palpitations, the feeling of faintness, sweating, shortness of breath, chest pain. And in 2002, when her prescription medications for this weren't really giving her relief anymore, Tina underwent a surgery, which was described as minor, to correct this. But it was a heart surgery. Yeah, that doesn't sound minor to me. Doesn't sound that minor to me either. Okay, fuck.

I think I also suffer from that thing of like you start describing something and I'm like, I have that sometimes. Sometimes I'm short of breath. Oh my God. Oh, that sounds really scary. Yeah. So she had the surgery. It was successful.

And Tina no longer suffered the symptoms of PSVT. But Tina's parents didn't think that she should be doing anything as strenuous as diving. And more importantly, they felt like she was being pushed by Gabe to do something that she wasn't that interested in. Right. I mean, if she doesn't want to dive. Yeah. But Tina told them this is what she wanted. pushed by Gabe to do something that she wasn't that interested in. Right. I mean, if she doesn't want to dive. But Tina told them this is what she wanted. And she also told them that they didn't need to worry because Gabe was a certified rescue diver.

If she got in trouble, he'd be there to save her. And she told them that they were planning their honeymoon as a scuba diving trip. Well, part of it, anyway. The couple planned to spend two weeks in Australia. The first part would be kind of Tina's week. They would go to Sydney. They'd be shopping and sightseeing. And then from there, they'd head to Townsville,

where they would board a ship and spend the next week at sea performing a series of dives at the Great Barrier Reef. That is one hell of a honeymoon. That is the hell of a honeymoon. This was the trip of Gabe's dreams. It was actually a trip that he'd been thinking of as a solo trip for years. His grandmother had actually offered to fund it as a college graduation present. But now he was thrilled at the idea of taking his new bride on his dream dive trip. Finally, after months of planning, it was finally here. October 11, 2003,

Gabe and Tina's wedding day. Tina told her mother that she felt like the princess bride, and those in attendance said that the new Mr. and Mrs. Thomas made for a... What? That's wrong. That's not their last name. It's Watson. That's her maiden name. Hold on. Let me fix my notes. Sorry, Patty, you're going to have to cut that. Turns out he was her brother. Stop it.

It's a mystery how they didn't know. Stop it. Is it one mystery how they didn't know. Stop it. Is it one of those creepy doctor things? Anyway, and those in attendance said the new Mr. and Mrs. Watson made for a beautiful couple and looked very much in love. And they looked kind of alike. Stop it. And they looked kind of alike. Stop it.

At the end of the evening, Gabe and Tina got into the elevator to leave their wedding reception. Wedding reception, as it turns out. And Tina's dad did kind of a weird thing. He literally like put his arm in the way of the closing elevator door. And then like once they opened back up, like got inside and gave his daughter one last goodbye hug. He grabbed her and said, baby girl, go have the time of your life. And then he turned and grabbed Gabe and said, take care of my baby girl. Did he just feel compelled all of a sudden? And that was the last time he saw his daughter.

Just 11 days later, Tina Watson died on her honeymoon. The first leg of the trip went as expected. They left two days after the wedding and spent the next several days enjoying the sights in Sydney. Then on October 21st, they traveled to Townsville to board the Spoilsport. They planned to spend the next several days aboard this vessel, performing a series of 25 dives around the Great Barrier Reef. They would average four to five dives per day. So they get on this boat like at night.

It like sails out. This just sounds terrible. I'm sorry, but it does. You're not interested in this at all? No. Yeah. So they get on this boat like at night and like they go to bed in their cabin and then it sails out to where they were going to anchor for

the first dive. And the next morning, the Watsons wake up and they find the Spoilsport moored at their first dive point. The site of the SS Youngala. So this is a passenger ship that sank in 1911. Every passenger on board died. Oh, God. Yeah. It, like, hadn't been fitted with, like, a Morse code thing or something like that yet.

Like, that was, like, new technology. And it was, like, hit by a storm and wasn't able to call for help. Oh, gosh. And so it sunk and everybody died. Oh, no. How many people? A hundred and something. Gosh.

I didn't write that one down. I apologize. I accept your apology. But since it has sunk, it has become this kind of reef of its own. Coral has grown all over the ship, and so it's become a very popular diving point. Sure. chose to take advantage and moved this dive up in the schedule because this was the most difficult, most dangerous dive, and they wanted the conditions to be as good as they could be. Mm-hmm. That morning, all of the divers were briefed on what to expect out of the dive. The dive master told them about the visibility underwater, the currents. He talked about safety procedures. This particular dive follows a very like set routine. So divers are taken from their boat out to a buoy. And then from that buoy, they follow this like permanent chain down to the bow of the wrecked S.S. Yonge Yangala. And then it's like anchored

there. And then the divers let go of that chain and the current then carries them over the deck of the ship. It's called like a floating dive. That sounds really cool. It does sound super cool. So you can take in all of the wildlife, like all of the different fish, all the coral,

everything. And then you float down to another buoy and then you follow that chain back up to the surface and then you're taken back to your ship. Okay. This is what's called a drift dive. But at this particular site, the current was super strong. And so it required really experienced divers. So company policy was that each diver was to be questioned alone about their dive skills so that whoever they were with couldn't influence their answers in any way. And then they were to be offered an orientation dive by a dive

master to get them used to the conditions. But for whatever reason, this policy wasn't followed this day. Gabe and Tina were asked about their skill levels together. And then they were offered an orientation dive together. But Gabe Watson assured them that they would be fine. He was a certified rescue diver. He had more than 55 dives under his belt. What is important to know here is that what Gabe failed to disclose to the dive coordinators that day was that Tina had never dived in open water. Ever. And Gabe himself had only completed a handful of dives in open water. They had both received their dive certifications at a flooded quarry in Alabama.

So it was completely different conditions than what they were going into that day. And Gabe had completed his rescue diving certification at that same quarry. Yeah. Quarry. Whatever. Quarry, quar that same quarry. Yeah. Quarry. Whatever. Quarry, quarry, quarry. It's that one for sure. For sure.

So Gabe and Tina were offered orientation dives like at two different times that morning by the dive master and both times they declined. And so a couple of hours later, they got on their wetsuit, strapped on their tanks, and they entered the water to begin their dive. Were they made aware that this was a pretty risky one?

Yeah, I mean they were told about the conditions. They were told that typically we do this a little bit later on, but the conditions seem to be the best today. So if everybody's comfortable let's go ahead and do this dive today. Gotcha. So they get in the water and just like two minutes later, Gabe and Tina got back on the spoil sport. Gabe said that there was some kind of problem with his dive computer. So it's worn like a wristwatch. He said something wasn't registering properly. It was beeping at him as soon as they started their descent. And so they'd come back up. He said something wasn't registering properly. It was beeping at him

as soon as they started their descent. And so they'd come back up. He took the batteries out of it, flipped them around, got it working again, and then they went off to start their dive again.

Well, that's unsettling. Uh-huh. So they get back in the water. They start their dive. And like seven minutes later, Gabe surfaced. But he was in distress. He needed help. Well, more accurately, Tina needed help.

Gabe said the currents were way stronger than they had expected them to be. And just as they kind of got down under the surface, Tina signaled that she wanted to go back to the dive rope. So they maybe started to drift a little bit. And then she signaled that she wanted to go back to the dive rope and then back to the surface. Like she gave the motion for up. And Gabe said that when he looked at her, her face was very distressed. So he grabbed a hold of her to guide her back to the dive line. But that at some point she kind of flailed a little bit and maybe she was panicking, you know, whatever. And accident.

She accidentally hit his mask and his regulator and knocked them. and his regulator and knocked them. And so he, for like one second, let go of her to get his mask back in position, get his regulator back in his mouth. And by the time that he could see again, Tina was meters below him. She was sinking super fast.

He said she was sinking too quickly for him to get to her. And so he got up to the surface as quickly as he could to get help. He said that he went to the surface so fast that he thought he ruptured his eardrum. Yeah. So he gets up to the surface to ask for help. Another diver goes and gets him. Some other divers are in the area at the time. They kind of witness parts of this.

One diver, his name was Dr. Stanley Stutz. He said he saw something going on with Tina and Gabe. He thought he saw Gabe, like, give Tina a bear hug. And then she was kind of flailing. Tina a bear hug. And then she was kind of flailing. And then minutes later, he watched as he went up to the surface and Tina sunk to the ocean floor. Is that normal to sink?

So there's some talk about like they have these buoyancy regulators and she should have let air out of it. And she tried to or she should put more air in it. But it wasn't right. He Gabe says it wasn't functioning properly and she was really panicked by this point and so he

oh my god this is terrifying. He just went to go get help. So he gets back to the spoilsport he's like we need help we need help we need help and one of the dive masters his name was Wade Singleton he goes he gets in the water he goes and gets Tina he brings her up. At this point, Tina has been underwater for like 10 minutes.

He pulls her up onto a different dive boat. There are multiple boats in the area at this time. He pulls her up onto the closest one, a separate boat. Meanwhile, Gabe's still back on the spoil sport. And a doctor on that boat spent 45 minutes working on Tina, trying to resuscitate her, but was unsuccessful. Tina drowned. It looked like it was a tragic accident. Yeah.

This was a young woman on her honeymoon, and now she was dead. This was a young woman on her honeymoon, and now she was dead. But police doing a standard death investigation thought Gabe seemed pretty suspicious. Everyone except for Tina that day was an experienced diver. And they were told at the beginning of that dive that this dive was known as a red dive because of the strong currents and police wondered why gabe knowing his wife had no open water experience would have even let tina go in the water that day. Well, I mean, she's a grown woman. Absolutely. She's making that decision herself.

Now, yeah, you would hope that he would say, no, let's do something else here. But she's an adult. It's her decision. Yeah, I agree. They also thought that Gabe, as a certified rescue diver made a grave error that day by leaving his dive buddy behind that's like the number one rule of fight club you never leave your buddy behind and so even if they're going down they said he should have been able to get to her and then he should have ascended with her. Yeah.

But Gabe said the severity of the current was just something they weren't prepared for. It hit them as soon as they got into the water and then they were being pushed along so fast. So fast. And so, like I said, Tina had indicated to him that she wanted to go back to the dive line, go back to the surface, and that they had tried to do that. But Tina couldn't get her buoyancy compensator, that's what they call it, to inflate properly or deflate, whichever one they were wanting to do. And so he said that he'd grabbed tina and he just kind of told that same story again is it possible that he's just kind of a douche i mean that's honestly like is it possible that he's just one of those people and there are tons of them out there who like he overestimates his own ability. And so he gets out there.

He's like, yeah, sure, I'm fine. And yeah, he's been kind of a dick. But I think that is 100 percent what happened. I mean, that's kind of what it sounds like. I think that's 100 percent what happened. But stay tuned. OK, OK. I love that that's where your head is.

So, you know, over the next several hours, Gabe is interviewed by multiple people. He gives, you know, the same kind of story about what had happened under the water. But according to police, Gabe's version of the story kept changing slightly. They said he gave 16 varying accounts of what happened underwater that day. OK, well, how much did they vary? Like, what are we what are we talking about here? We'll talk about it later. OK.

These varying accounts, though, struck them as suspicious. Pairing accounts, though, struck them as suspicious. And then they got his dive computer and they believed that when they compared his account to his dive computer that they didn't match. Most significantly, they said that his dive computer tracked the amount of time that Gabe took to ascend to the surface when he was getting help for Tina. Gabe told police that he got to the surface as fast as he could. He went so fast that he was sure he ruptured his eardrum. Right. But a dive expert's analysis of his dive computer said that that wasn't the case, that he kind of ascended at a leisurely rate.

OK, but wasn't he having problems with that thing? That dive computer? He was, and he's in conditions he's not familiar with. So maybe as fast as he can go is a leisurely rate, right? I mean, maybe. Yeah. The day after Tina died, an autopsy was performed by a forensic pathologist in Queensland. And that pathologist found florid evidence of air embolism, obviously.

Okay. I don't know what those words mean. But he gave the official cause of death as drowning, but did note very little water was found in her lungs. Okay. Tina's family, when they got word of this, was obviously devastated. Yeah. But they were also adamant that her death was no accident. And they pressed Australian authorities to launch a formal investigation into Gabe Watson.

They believed that he had murdered Tina and that he planned it the whole time. Hmm. So they are that's kind of spread out over some time. Sure. Meantime, Gabe and Tina's body of spread out over some time. Sure. Meantime, Gabe and Tina's body go back to the United States. They have a funeral for her. And Tina's family thought Gabe exhibited some odd behavior following her death. He allegedly made a comment at her funeral that at least her boobs looked good.

Oh, yeah. What the fuck? Mm hmm. Yeah. What the fuck? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Then for Christmas that year, he sent a Christmas card to a couple of people that was a picture of him and Tina.

And then on the inside, he wrote, who's that sexy guy standing next to Tina? Oh, that's me. Oh, my God. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And then there was this whole incident with Tina's grave site. So the burial site as a whole had been a big argument between Gabe and Tina's parents. Gabe wanted her buried in one place. Tina's parents wanted her buried somewhere else. But ultimately, Gabe had gotten the say in where she was buried. They were legally married. Oh, God, for like 12 seconds. Right. So she was buried where Gabe had wanted her to be. But every time her parents would put flowers and gifts and trinkets on Tina's grave, they would

disappear. They even like started like bolting them down and like securing them with chains and they'd still go missing. Finally, Tina's parents went to the police and the police set up like a little surveillance camera. And it captured Gabe using bolt cutters to remove the items that they had left on Tina's grave. So they confronted Gabe about it. So they confronted Gabe about it, and he said that the items her parents were leaving were gaudy and tacky and that Tina wouldn't have liked them. So he was honoring Tina by getting rid of them. Oh, my gosh. Okay, I'm just so conflicted.

Is this guy just a huge douche? I think so. I think that's kind of a controversial opinion, but yes, that's. I think so. I mean, that's kind of a controversial opinion, but yes, that's what I think. And we'll get to why I think that. Okay. I mean, that is unbelievable. It is. Oh, it is.

It absolutely is. But it's pretty much in line with his behavior prior to when they were married with the fucking taunting of the wedding ring. Yeah, I mean, I just can't imagine. These parents are mourning their daughter. They're bringing something to her gravesite and you can't just let that be there. Yeah.

So meanwhile, while all this is going on, Tina's parents kept pushing for an investigation in Australia. And due to the nature of Tina's death, she was young. And they really thought that Gabe, like the police thought Gabe's account of what happened seemed implausible. And he'd given kind of those varied accounts. They decided to start a death investigation. And in November of 2007, a coronial inquiry was held, which is like a coroner's inquest, Australian style. Oh, my God. I should have seen that coming, but I didn't.

Obviously, Gabe had already left Australia by this point. Like four years had passed. And he declined to return to testify at the coronial inquest. But he did give like some statements to an attorney and an attorney represented him, whatever. During the inquest, the prosecutors gave evidence that Gabe's story contradicted what his dive computer said. They suggested that perhaps he had held Tina, turned off her air, held her until she stopped breathing, then turned it back on and let her sink as he went to the surface. This made sense with that story that the one witness had said that they'd seen Gabe give Tina a bear hug underwater. This matched with that.

They said that they'd also spent a bunch of time doing these reenactments of various scenarios at the dive spot. Police divers had done it. And this was the only one that kind of yielded the same results as far as where Tina had been found that day and at the bottom of the like on the ocean floor. Gabe's account didn't match like when they did what Gabe said. It didn't match the results. She ended up in a completely different area of the wreckage and so they believed that's what he'd done but they had to try and explain why he would do that well yeah I mean they've been married

Shirley didn't have like some big life insurance policy or anything. They were married for 11 days and they believed that the motive was money, life insurance money. Because Tina's father came forward and told authorities that shortly before Tina and Gabe got married, Tina had come to him and said that Gabe had asked her to increase her insurance to the maximum coverage her company offered and that he had asked her to make him the beneficiary. So, OK, note here. Tina told her father about Gabe's request like two weeks before they got married. And he said he'd help her take care of it. He worked in the insurance business. He'd been in the insurance business for like 25 years.

And he's like, yeah, we'll take care of it when you get back from your honeymoon. He thought it was weird that he was requesting to increase her insurance coverage. Yeah, that does seem strange. So here's the deal. Her existing policy gave her about $35,000 in coverage. Her existing policy gave her about $35,000 in coverage. And Gabe had asked her, according to Tommy, to raise it to the maximum, which would be about $130,000. So we're not talking about like an enormous amount of money here.

Well, but how young are they? 26. They'd also, I think this is worth noting, they'd also bought a house together around this time. So to me, that actually makes sense that you would say, OK, let's increase your life insurance in case something terrible happens. And I should be the beneficiary. And that way I can have access to that money to put towards this house that we have purchased together. OK. I don't think that that's some wild, suspicious request. I mean, I don't think it's wild.

I do think. I don't know. It feels a little weird to be like, you need to go for the maximum. Yeah, maybe. I don't think $130,000, like that's not changing anybody's life. He's not. I don't see that as being enough money to motivate you to kill somebody. People kill each other for a lot less.

You're absolutely right. They do. But yeah, I'm not sold. Yeah. But as a result of this coronial inquest, in November of 2008, Gabe Watson was charged with murder in Australia. Oh, I'm sorry. That doesn't seem like enough. I completely agree. He fought extradition for like six months.

And then in June of 2009, he went to Australia willingly and he went to trial. He pled not guilty to murder. But then he got a deal. And he pled guilty to manslaughter. and he pled guilty to manslaughter. Essentially, he admitted that his negligence resulted in the death of Tina Watson, but he had never intended to kill her. Yeah.

I 100% agree with this. Yeah, that makes sense to me too. Makes total sense to me. The judge sentenced him to four years in prison, but he suspended that sentence pending like him serving 12 months. So he would have to serve 12 months in prison and then the rest of the sentence would be suspended. He would be released and he could go back to the United States. So really just a year. Yeah. But like if he fucked up, you'd sit back for the rest of it. Okay. Kind of like parole. All right. Tina's dad was pissed about this deal.

Yeah. The family had come to Australia expecting a murder trial. Yeah. And then at the last second, this deal was agreed upon without their consent. So they didn't get any kind of heads up that this was happening? Apparently not. Outside the courthouse that day, Tommy Thomas said, it's total injustice. It's ludicrous what we have just seen.

He was charged with murder by a senior coroner in Townsville Supreme Court. Sorry, I left you hanging. That had completed an extensive investigation of the police's investigation. I was just totally destroyed. It's ludicrous. It's a slap to the Australian people and the justice system. It's a slap in the face of the police on both sides,

both in the U.S. and Australia, that spent time investigating this case. And the four and a half years here, it's a joke. He was pissed. I don't blame him. I mean, I can't imagine. I can't imagine if I thought someone killed my child. Oh, my God. And then they were going to get I mean, this is basically

getting away with it if that's what happened. The Queensland director of public prosecutions, Tony Moynihan, SC, I don't know what the SC stands for, issued a statement which said, The decision to accept Mr. Watson's plea of guilty to manslaughter was made after a careful and thorough examination of the admissible evidence and was not taken lightly. nature of this case, Mr. Watson's admission that he breached his duty to render assistance to his wife ultimately meant there was no reasonable prospect of proving, beyond a reasonable doubt, that he was guilty of murder. Yeah, I mean... Yeah! So I kind of feel like it was interesting when you were talking about the experiments they did.

Yeah. I mean, if he's not really that good at what he's doing and if he's not really that experienced in those waters, then, yeah, he could come up to the surface and say, I did X, Y, and Z. Who knows what the fuck he really did? Yep. He might not know. Yeah. Yeah. i completely agree following the plea agreement the alabama attorney general troy king lodged an official appeal with the queensland

supreme court second time there wow Yeah, I don't know. I'm sorry. I was so... I was really surprised by this as well. And then also wrote a letter to the Queensland Attorney General Cameron Dick

and asked them to appeal this sentence. And the following day, Attorney General Cameron Dick announced that the state would appeal against the inadequacy of Gabe Watson's sentence. So this appeal went before the Queensland Court of Appeals on July 17, 2009.

The Crown asked the court to increase Gabe Watson's prison term to two and a half years. The defense argued that that wasn't necessary. Gabe Watson had had a momentary lapse in judgment. He failed to save his wife. That's what he'd done. Yeah. And he had been accused of a crime he did not commit. And then he had voluntarily returned to Australia and he'd cooperated with the courts and that the penalty imposed by the trial judge was fair and just. imposed by the trial judge was fair and just. The appeals court handed down their ruling on September 18th, 2009. This was like a three-judge panel situation. And two members sided with the

prosecution. They increased Gabe Watson's sentence by six months to a total of 18 months. And the third judge was in favor of dismissing the appeal. And so ultimately, Gabe served 18 months in custody in Australia. When Gabe was released from custody in Australia, he went back to the United States. And as soon as he landed, he was arrested and charged with the kidnapping and murder of Tina Watson. Oh, wow. They later dropped the kidnapping charge. But prosecutors in Alabama believed that they had. Well, they don't have jurisdiction.

They believed they had jurisdiction to try him for murder because they believed he had planned the murder in the United States. Okay. They had been investigating this kind of alongside the Australian authorities kind of the whole time. Interestingly, the Australian authorities had kind of pushed back on this Alabama investigation. They had refused to share their investigative materials until prosecutors in Alabama agreed not to seek the death penalty. Oh, that's interesting.

And once they agreed to do that, they shared the materials. And see, here I would have bet my butthole that Australia was fine with the death penalty. Gabe's murder trial began in February of 2012. Holy shit. Does that not blow your fucking mind? I mean, this is kind of wild. Yeah. Okay.

In the years that had passed, so it's been like nine years by this point, right? Gabe had remarried and his wife stayed by his side throughout the trial. Pretty quickly, the prosecution was hit with a couple of big blows to their case. First, there was those reenactment videos that the police had made in Australia. That video kind of cast doubt over Gabe's version of events, but the judge refused to allow it to be admitted as evidence because the people who had worked on the reenactment, the people in Australia who had put

it together, weren't at trial. So they weren't able to be cross-examined. And because of that, judge had no way to confirm that the reenactment had been performed under the same conditions that were present the day of Tina's death. And so the judge ruled it inadmissible. the day of Tina's death. And so the judge ruled it inadmissible. Police had also uncovered in the Australian investigation that Gabe Watson had sent an email to the dive operator, the person in charge of this whole big excursion, the 25 dives, like five months before they went on this trip. And he specifically inquired about the conditions at the SS Yungala

dive site and that somebody had responded to his email, somebody at this company, and they had said that because Tina was an inexperienced diver, she should either take the orientation dive or she should stay out of the water that day. Obviously, we know neither of those things happened, but Gabe had actually told a police officer following Tina's death that he didn't know anything about the dive's conditions prior to that day. Yeah, I mean, gosh. Isn't that just what you say? Well, now I'm worried that I'm bending over backwards for this guy. I guess part of it is, like, I don't know.

You shoot off an email five months prior. And how much do you really remember? I don't know. So, again, the judge refused to allow this in as evidence because that employee who had responded to the email was not able, was not available to testify at trial. And so the judge was like, nope, can't bring the email in. Well, they've got nothing. No shit. The judge also refused to allow Tina's father to testify that Gabe Watson had asked his daughter to increase the value of her life insurance policy because it's hearsay. Well, but isn't there an exception because she is dead now? But she did it.

You have to, like like there are certain rules and i don't know all the rules it has to be you know like a deathbed blah blah exception yeah and the judge ruled that it was not you wouldn't allow this testimony in okay so the prosecution was like well fuck there goes the staircase but they no moved along anyway. With what? Exactly. During opening arguments, the prosecution told the jury that Gabe Watson had drowned his new bride during a dive on Australia's Great Barrier Reef in hopes of collecting $210,000 in insurance benefits and belongings, including her diamond engagement ring. Oh, give me a break. That's weak as fuck.

I thought it was $135,000. Yeah, so there was also like a $45,000 traveler's insurance policy. And Gabe did actually make an attempt to claim that at one point. And they were like, yeah, your claim doesn't match the requirements for us to pay out. And he was like, he tried to, he was actually going to take them to court over it. And then his lawyer was like, this might not be good for your investigation that's going on in Australia. And so he dropped the lawsuit. In contrast, in their opening statement, the defense told the jury that Gabe had received

no money and that he had no reason to kill Tina, that he loved her and that this was nothing more than a tragic accident. The prosecution's theory was that Gabe didn't ascend to the surface as quickly as he could have. They believed that this showed that he had intended to kill Tina. They told the jury that he turned off her air supply just long enough to kill her and then he turned it back on before releasing her and allowing her to sink. The prosecution entered a photo into evidence. So this was a photo that was actually taken by another diver. He was taking a picture of like his wife and it just happened to catch in the background Tina lying dead on the ocean floor. Oh, my God. Yeah. The prosecution said Gabe's version of events didn't match with his dive computer.

An Australian police officer told the jury that Gabe was calm when he was giving them statements, that he gave a lot of detail about what had happened, but that his tone had changed completely when he learned that they weren't going to return his dive computer to him, that it was going to become part of the investigation and that he'd been very upset about that. Well, that is weird. I agree. The dive computer kind of became the main part of the prosecution's case. Sure. Well, it's the only part. Exactly.

kind of became the main part of the prosecution's case. Sure, well, it's the only part. Exactly. It tracked the dive, and the prosecution believed that he didn't ascend as quickly as he could have. And they argued that his dive records, like on his thing, showed this, that he took his time getting to the surface. He wasn't getting there as fast as he could, ripping off his equipment, blowing out his eardrum. He was just taking his time, making sure his wife was dead before he got to the surface. They also argued that the whole thing with his dive computer malfunctioning before the dive was all bullshit,

was all a ruse in order to separate them from the other divers. It got them out of the water, back onto the boat, so that by the time they got in, the other divers that they were with that day were further along in the dive. Yeah, I mean, if that was the plan, then okay. They said that the motive was money. He wanted the money from her life insurance, from a travel insurance policy, and like I said, he'd made an attempt to claim that travel policy. And then the prosecution rested their case.

And when they did, the defense filed a motion to dismiss the charges, arguing that the prosecution had failed to reach their burden. And the judge agreed. Wow. Yeah. On February 23rd, 2012, Judge Tommy Nail dismissed the case. Gabe Watson was acquitted of murder. Judge Nail said that the state's evidence was, quote, sorely lacking.

Yeah. And the prosecution did not prove that Gabe had any financial motive. that Gabe had any financial motive. Prosecutor Don Valeska said this was the first time he had had a trial end and a judge's acquittal in the 41 years he'd been trying cases.

I mean, yeah, we don't hear about this often at all. No. Regarding the judge's decision, Thomas said it should have gone to the jury for them to decide. I don't know.

I don't think there's really an – I kind of agree with the judge. I do too. I don't think there's enough here. Yeah. So this is where most coverage of this case ends. Okay. Most sources I came across paint this as a man who got away with maybe murdering his wife. That's certainly what Tina Watson's family thinks.

Sure. Yeah. But there was one article that I came across that led me down this rabbit hole that makes me think that's not actually the case. So when I was researching this case, I came across this article for the Sydney Morning Herald that was published February 11th, 2012. So this was just as Gabe's murder trial was about to start in Alabama. And the headline says, Honeymoon Killer May Be Innocent, Says Dive Expert. OK, let's hear it. So in it, Michael McFadden.

OK, it might be McFadden. Michael McFadden. Okay. It might be McFadden. I have said it McFadden in my head the whole time, but it's definitely F-A-D-Y-E-N. It's probably McFadden. McFadden? McFunyon.

McFunyon. Anyway, Michael. So he's this sports diver in Sydney who publishes one of Australia's most popular websites for divers. Okay. And he discusses in this article why he actually thinks Gabe Watson is innocent. Okay. I must point out that Michael McFadden worked as a consultant, an unpaid consultant, but a consultant for Gabe Watson's defense at the American trial. Okay.

So Michael has logged more than 3,000 dives, and he believes that the mystery of Tina's death can be answered by examining her respiration rate and the lack of proper supervision during her dive. He says that she seems to have, quote, panicked and over breathed. So he says that this argument can be tested by calculating Tina's air volumes. So he calculated this based on the smallest tank Tina could have been wearing that day because when he did these calculations, he didn't have the exact specifications about what tank Tina had on. And so he calculated this on the smallest tank she could have had. And so based on these figures, when Tina commenced her dive, her scuba tank contained 1,746 liters of air. And when recovered, the tank contained 1,280 liters. This meant that Tina had used 466 liters of air.

Okay. Following so far? Following so long. Great. Most of this air had been breathed. There was a small amount that would have spilled when they went to recover her body and try to resuscitate her. He's calculating that out as about 66 liters of air. It accounts for the amount that would have spilled from the tank.

They know that Gabe Watson's total time underwater was seven minutes, as that was measured by his dive computer. So based on at what point Tina would have, like, been sinking and he started exiting, she would have been breathing normally. She should have been breathing normally for about five and a half minutes of the dive. But during that time, she would have used 72.73 liters per minute. When this is corrected for like breathing above water rather than breathing underwater, that equates to about 29.09 liters a minute. So he compared this breathing rate to a study that was done on Dutch women while cycling. Okay. They cycled at 16 kilometers an hour.

And during that, like, strenuous activity, they breathed at a rate of 16.1 liters per minute. So she almost doubled it. Okay. But are we comparing apples to oranges here with that? I don't know. You're talking about a strenuous activity to a strenuous activity? All right. All right.

Continue. Okay. So this means that, likerenuous activity to a strenuous activity. All right. All right. Continue. Okay. So this means that, like, not only did Tina have plenty of air, she didn't run out of air under there, but she was breathing copious quantities of air. And Michael McFadden says that he believes his figures are on the conservative side. They're probably under calculating how much air she was breathing. Okay. He believes that through this analysis that Tina panicked underwater. Yeah. So Dr. Carl Edmonds, who's the former chief medical officer for the Royal Australian Navy's elite diving division, and Dr. Michael Bennett, the senior lecturer in anesthesia and hyperbaric medicine at the University of New South Wales, both looked over these

calculations of Michael's, and they said they're right. They are consistent with everything that they know about Tina's death. So I went to this guy's website. I read a whole bunch of shit. So he just like heard about this case and then started reading about it and like got in contact with a woman who wrote a book about it. And through that, he got access to 1500 pages of evidence from the coronial inquest. And he starts looking through that all.

And he said that this whole case comes down to misunderstandings. And he likened it to a game of telephone. He says that Gabe didn't actually make any inconsistent statements. He actually has a chart on his website of each of Gabe's statements. And if you look at them, all the major points, they're exactly the same. He said it comes down to that the police officers were not divers and didn't understand the information that Gabe was giving them and that Gabe wasn't particularly articulate about it.

Right. Right. And that Gabe wasn't particularly articulate about it. Right. Right. And that they chalked up a bunch of stuff about this dive computer, about that that whole thing was made up to separate him from the other divers. So he said it started beeping as soon as they got underwater. And then he got up on the boat and he fixed the batteries.

The batteries were in the wrong way. And they're like, uh-uh-uh, not a chance. Nothing's going to beep at you if the batteries are in the wrong way. And they're like, not a chance. Nothing's going to beep at you if the batteries are in the wrong way. But what they didn't know, because they're not divers, is that a dive computer is two separate parts. There's the part on your wrist, the display. And then there's another part on like your pack or whatever. Yeah. And if the two aren't communicating. Then it will.

It will beep. Oh, my gosh. So he says Gabe did not make inconsistent statements. Right. They just didn't understand what he was saying and that he wasn't particularly articulate. And then remember the witness who said he saw Gabe holding Tina in a bear hug underwater? Mm-hmm. According to the official records from the investigation, that never happened.

What? He never said that. He said that he saw Gabe hold Tina in a short embrace. That's the official quote from the coronial inquest. But the diver who pulled Tina out of the water that day said that he used a bear hug to pull her to the surface. And those two accounts have gotten mashed up as one account over time. He's got a ton of examples of this stuff on his site.

The reenactment video. Yeah. Current was moving the opposite direction that day as it was the day when Tina died. Also, the diver that they had stand in for Tina was not the same size and weight at all. So it's completely inaccurate. Yeah. Okay. This is not the only guy, though, who thinks that Gabe is innocent. The original diving expert, the key diving expert from the original investigation, Colin McKenzie, he said that originally in the original investigation, he said a diver with Watson's training should have been able to bring Tina up.

So that's a big point during this whole investigation. Why didn't he bring Tina to the surface? He's a certified rescue diver. He said he was never taught how to bring someone to the surface in his diving certification. And so this guy during that initial investigation is like, no, that's malarkey. Anybody who's certified in rescue diving knows how to bring somebody to the surface. It was a big point in this initial coronial inquest. Later, he gets access to all of Gabe's training records and Tina's training records, and he recants that entire thing. He said that Gabe never should have been allowed to be like a buddy swimmer in the water that day.

Did he go to like Billy Bob's diving school? He went to a two-day certification program for rescue diving in a quarry. Yeah. Not in open water. Nope, a quarry. Yeah. Not in open water. Nope, nope, nope. Yeah. And he said he certainly should have never been allowed to be the buddy diver for his wife who had no open water dive experience at all.

Right. On top of that, there was also the issue of Tina's health. So Tina, remember, had that heart surgery to correct the irregular heartbeat thing. She'd had that two years prior to this dive. But on her dive application to get her certification, she said that she'd never had heart problems, never had any surgery. And so this leading expert in dive medicine, Professor Mike Bennett, said that Tina was unfit to dive without clearance from a cardiologist. She should have never been in the water. According to Colin McKenzie, this is after he learned how Gabe had gotten his certification and everything.

He said he had no hope of being competent. He could barely save himself that day, let alone his wife. I don't believe he intended to kill her. Yeah. This is like further backed up by the fact that Gabe needed help getting his diving equipment on that day. He was just so underprepared and just cocky as fuck. When Colin McKenzie went back over this again, he called Gabe Watson a dangerous amateur who showed a complete lack of courage when he abandoned his wife.

He was just not prepared at all for the conditions in open water. And he thought he was an expert diver. That's really what this comes down to. I don't know. I also, I wonder about the liability of the people running those dives. I'm glad you said that. Okay. So obviously, we know the dive company had offered these orientation dives or the dive master, and both Tina and Gabe refused these.

So the head of the company, his name's Mike Ball, he said that, you know, policies are in place for a reason and that policies weren't followed that day. That, you know, policies are in place for a reason and that policies weren't followed that day. But that, you know, his dive masters that day took Gabe Watson at his word, believing that he was an experienced and certified rescue diver. Yeah. I mean, maybe you shouldn't be taking people at their word. You can't be taking people at their word. I think especially when you see somebody who needs help putting on his equipment. Like there are a lot of things that you're going to see. And then he comes back up because he's having problems with his equipment.

Maybe that's another thing to note and be like, OK, these people shouldn't be down there alone. Yeah. Or maybe he shouldn't even be down there at all. So the company actually later pled guilty to contravening safety standards, which we all know what that means, obviously. And they were fined $6,500 and like $1,500 in court costs. Oh, wow. Yeah.

That'll teach him. Yeah. But, yeah, I truly think that, like, he was just like a douchebag who thought he was like a really awesome diver and was totally unprepared for the conditions that they experienced in open water. I think it's such a big leap to say that he killed her. I mean, and planned it this way. This is such a complicated way to kill somebody. Yeah. It's super complicated.

Well, because they can't even really say exactly how she died. They don't really know, did she over-breathe? Did she stop breathing? Like, they declared her death a drowning, but there was not water in her lungs. So, yeah. Yeah, I'm with you. I think he's guilty of being a douche. Yeah, and he's guilty of negligence for sure.

I don't know. I think there's a lot of guilt here. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, honestly. I know. I think you and I are thinking the same thing. Couldn't Tina's family sue the dive company for negligence, for wrongful death? I think I would.

Yeah. Yeah. I think I would, too. I mean, they didn't follow policies. There were supposed to be policies in place that they had to prove their certifications. They had to show what their dives were. And if they saw what really Gabe's dives were, that Tina had only had five dives total, they should have intervened and said, no, no, we can't let you in on this dive. It's too dangerous.

Or you have to dive with a dive master. You can't be each other's buddy. Yeah. Oh, so a lot of people think that he did this, though, huh? Ton of people think that he did this. So we need to be prepared. Yeah, I got a little nervous. Well, it's so funny because you said you'd been nervous about your case a little because you said you had like a little bit of a spicy take. Yeah. And man, you gave me the biggest smile when I said, what if this guy's just a douche? Yeah. So, yeah, I got nervous because like every coverage of this case just ends when the case is dismissed.

It's like, oh, my gosh, can you believe it? This guy got away with murdering his wife. But see, even when it ended there, that's not what I was thinking. I know, that's not what I was thinking either. Oh, gosh. And that's the story of a honeymoon murder mystery. That was very interesting. Yeah.

Oh, wow. Yeah, so that's my take on that. I'm interested to see what feedback we get on that. Why are you a terrible person? Should we take some questions from our Discord? I believe we shall. But first, how do they get into the Discord? To get in the Discord, all

you have to do is join our Patreon at the $5 level or higher. $5! $5 level or higher. Ooh, Game Show Aficionado wants to know, Brandi, as a fellow hairstylist, I'm wondering what one of your fondest memories is from cosmetology school. For me, one is the older ladies who wanted you to add a blue rinse to their hair. Did you have ladies who did that too? Sure did. I love the ladies who came in

every week for their roller sets. There was this one woman in particular, very sweet woman, came in every week for her roller set and she would bring her dog with her but it wasn't allowed to come in the school it had to sit in the car and she'd roll its window down and so that was you know fine in the car and it was a german shepherd named heather that's a big ass dog down bitch asks if you had to choose between never being able to have nachos again or never being able to have cookies again, which would you choose? Oh, gosh. I'm going nachos.

I'm going nachos, too, because Christmas time, am I not having cookies? Give me a break. Absolutely not. Oh, Haunted Loaf wants to know, other than true crime, what other topic could you two talk about on your new podcast? Okay, Brandi, we're starting a new podcast. What's it going to be about? So many things. What's it going to be, boy?

Celebrities. We could have a celebrity podcast. Where we just talk about? About celebrities. Could you narrow it down more? No. I mean, I laugh, but yeah, we could definitely. For sure.

Just like celebrity gossip. Because we're so well connected. We're not at all. No, it'd be like the same shit anybody can find on the internet. We don't have the inside scoop on anything. But we have delightful opinions. That's right. What else can we talk about?

I mean, if we were trying something new, I would probably try to force you to watch a reality show with me and do a reality show recap thing. I know. You'd hate it. It'd be funny, though, because I would hate it so much. Do you think you could get into it? I think you could. Yeah, I probably would. Mm-hmm.

I think we could do that. We could do the hell out of that. The other day, Kyle and I were talking about iconic moments in reality TV show history. What do you got? Because Jay was being kind of sarcastic with us. And he was – because I said something was an iconic moment in reality TV show history. And he was like, what are some other iconic moments? And I was like, I'm glad you asked.

So we started naming them. What do you think? I don't know. I don't watch reality TV. What do you think? I don't know. I don't watch reality TV. What do you got? Oh, come on. Tyra Banks. We were all rooting for you.

That's obviously. I did used to watch America's Next Top Model all the time. We all did. Yeah. That is a good one. Another top moment. That terrible episode of Survivor where that douchebag outed the trans person? Oh, my gosh.

I cried watching that. I cried, too. Oh. Yep. It was terrible. But it was a moment. It sure was. See, we could go on.

All right. All right. Let's start it right now. No, I refuse to do any more work ever. Okay. I think this is a funny question because I think my answer will surprise people. Kiki Wilder asks, do you always follow the speed limit or do you think of them more as guidelines? This is the one thing where I'm not that much of a rule follower. What do you go like five over? Yes. That's No, that's a rule follower. Is it?

Yeah, if you're going... But I don't go the speed. Okay, but you're going five over, right? Yeah, because one time someone told me they won't pull you over for that. Yeah. So you're following a rule. Okay, great. I think I'm going to surprise everyone with what a badass I am.

Oh, okay. Jill wants to know, if you're going on a trip, are you packed days in advance, people, or do you panic pack right before you have to leave? I feel like this is relevant. I'm a panic packer. Are you? Yeah. So I'll like make a little listy in my head. So I have like a general idea of what I want. That's not the same as an actual listy. OK. All right. Yeah. It's a mental listy. I'm not the same as an actual listie. Okay. All right.

Yeah. It's a mental listie. Oh, you have an actual list? Yeah. Sometimes I do an actual list because I'm so nervous. So I, here's my problem. The toiletries. Yeah.

I can't pack days before. No. Because like. You think this just happens? No. No. No. No. Because, like, you think this just happens? No. No, but I do have, like, I have my little bag of clothes packed for Obsessed Fest. You do? Yeah.

I don't have anything packed. My suitcase is in the bedroom, but I can pack. I haven't packed shit yet, though. I'm glad you can pack. Yeah. You know what I really want? I think I'm going to purchase this at some point. Like a nice matching set of luggages.

So that's what I bought because this year we have Obsessed Fest and David and I are going on a honeymoon. And so I bought that on what? Prime Day. Oh, I see. So you're terrible. Straight from the devil himself. And now you have two buttholes, so you seem kind of evil, too. Is it real cute?

It's not cute. I think it looks fancy. It's like the hard shell kind with the ridges, and it's white. It's very Brandy luggage. Oh, my gosh. she's so fancy do you know what this fucking try guy thing is are you i'm not no i'm not well aware of it so try guys which is something that like a lot of people were into it's an internet thing and like one guy's apparent this is okay let me see if I have gotten as much as I do.

On the same page. Okay. Try guys are an internet thing and one of the dudes like whole brand is how much he loves his wife and then it just came out that he cheated on his fucking wife. Yeah. Yeah that's all I know too. Yeah. And now he's

no longer. He's the opposite of a try guy. What's that? Divorced guy. I don't I don't know. Oh, how do you feel about that? Like that popped up in my newsfeed yesterday. I'm like, I don't even know who this person is. Yes. But now all of a sudden I know he had an affair with someone at his company. Yeah. Good Lord. I don't know, man. We're living in weird times. We sure are. And on that note, how about we read some Supreme Court inductions? Yes.

Are we almost to the end? We are. I think we're naming people's names and favorite cookies? Pretty close. Naming their names and favorite cookies. Naming names and taking cookies. I wish. Justin McGranahan.

My neighbor's green Christmas tree shaped sugar cookies. Nina Tice. Any sugar cookie with frosting. Blair Carpenter. Crispy peanut butter sandwich cookies. Nicole Wirth. Scotch fingers dipped in hot beverage of your choice. Scotch fingers?

Scotch fingers? I don't know. You dip them in scotch. Then you dip them. Then you dip them in a hot bevy. Alicia Fox. Chocolate chip blondies. I would argue that that's a tray bake, not a cookie, but, you know. Betsy O'Day.

Snickerdoodle. Jaylee Meisenhelter. A snickerdoodle. Gabby Alvarez. A snickerdoodle. No. Double stuffed Oreos dipped in peanut butter. Oh, that's a lot going on.

You don't like the double stuffs. You think it's too much stuff. It is too much stuff. And then we're adding peanut butter? Yeah. Nope. Sarah Stubblefield. Orange cranberry cookies with white chocolate chips.

That is a lot happening. Although I do like the orange cranberry Belvitas. You ever had that? I'm sorry. Every time you say that to me, I think Velvita. No, Belvita. No, I'm with you, but for say that to me, I think Velveeta. No, Velveeta. No, I'm with you, but for just a split second, I'm like, that is disgusting. Allison Rowley.

Peanut butter cookies with Reese's Pieces. Kara Henry. Rolo cookies. Becca B. Chocolate chip cookie dough with mini Reese's and mini M&M's in addition to the chocolate chunks. That is madness. Packed cookie. Brooke Pullman.

Macaroons. Karina Gardner. Coffee cake cookie from Gideon's Bakehouse. Oh, I think that's good. I would try that. Sarah Gilbertson. Peanut butter blossoms. Kayla Ridgely.

Oatmeal cream pie cookies. Amy Twist. Selection is terrible in Jolly Old England, but the best we have is chocolate digestives. Digestives, I bet. You think? Yeah. I don't think you call it a digestive. Don't shame me.

I'm not. I loved how you said it. Allison Frye. Just because you've got fancy luggage. Custard creams. Welcome to the Supreme Court. Thank you, everyone, for all of your support. We appreciate it so much.

If you're looking for other ways to support us, please find us on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Patreon. Please remember to subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen. And then head on over to Apple Podcasts and leave us a five-star rating and review. Then be sure to join us next week when we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned! And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary.

And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. I got my info from reporting in the Tennessean, ESPN, and Aaron Andrews' interviews with Oprah and Megyn Kelly. I got my info from an episode of Dateline, an episode of the podcast Case File, ChillingCrimes.com, ABC News, the Sydney Morning Herald, and Michael McFadden's scuba diving website. For a full list of our sources, visit lgtcpodcast.com. Any errors are, of course, ours, but please don't take our word for it. Go read their stuff. Woo!