Let's Go To Court! - 240: Liberace & Karl Karlsen

Episode Date: December 21, 2022

Liberace was many things. He was a talented pianist. A singer. A showman. He was also… a messy bitch. So buckle up, folks! His struggles as a closeted gay man in Hollywood will have you feeling terrible for him. But his late-in-life relationship with a teenager will have you feeling terrible *about* him. Then Brandi tells us about a terrible man with an adorable name. When Christina Karlsen died in a house fire, investigators wondered if her husband, Karl Karlsen, might have had something to do with it. He’d managed to rescue their three children. Why not Christina? And was it a coincidence that the fire had started right outside the bathroom, where Christina was taking a bath?  And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: “Confidential pays Liberace,” New York Times, July 16, 1958 “Liberace’s privacy ransacked by estate battle testimonies,” by Peter H King for the Los Angeles Times “Drinks on the ‘Mirror’ after Cassandra’s remarks,” The Guardian, June 10, 1959 “How about a refund? Tabloid says of Liberace libel award,” Reuters, February 11, 1987 Excerpt from the book, “Liberace: An American Boy,” by Darden Asbury Pyron Liberace episode of “Reputations,” BBC Liberace episode of “Biography,” A&E “Liberace named in homosexual palimony suit,” UPI archives, October 14, 1982 “Liberace v Daily Mirror,” entry on Wikipedia “Liberace,” entry on Wikipedia “The boy toy’s story,” by David Segal for The New York Times In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “Father Knows Death” episode Accident, Suicide, or Murder “The Sins of the Father” episode 20/20 “Man Staged Murders Of His Wife And Son As Accidents To Collect Life Insurance” by Joe Dziemianowicz, Oxygen “Daughters on losing their mother and brother to dad who killed for insurance payouts” by Jenner Smith and Sean Dooley, ABC News “Karl Karlsen on 20/20: 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know” by Alyssa Choiniere, heavy.com “‘I’ve been through Hell’: Karlsen bares all in 2012 interrogation” by Dakota Morlan, The Calaveras Enterprise “GUILTY: Calaveras County jury finds Karlsen guilty of first degree murder” by Dakota Morlan. The Calaveras Enterprise “Karl Karlsen, who killed son for money, will spend life in prison for wife’s murder” by Samantha House, syracuse.com “‘Karl, get the kids,’ mother, trapped in a house fire, screamed” by Giuseppe Ricapito, The Union Democrat “Karlsen’s sister in law recalls abuse of Levi and her suspicions about Christina” by Giuseppe Ricapito, The Union Democrat YOU’RE STILL READING? My, my, my, you skeezy scunch! You must be hungry for more! We’d offer you some sausage brunch, but that gets messy. So how about you head over to our Patreon instead? (patreon.com/lgtcpodcast). At the $5 level, you’ll get 40+ full length bonus episodes, plus access to our 90’s style chat room!  

What if we just sat here the whole time and didn't say anything? Oh my god, that'd be such a power move. No, let's do this so we can be done and be on fucking break, Kristen! Yes! Alright, one semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts! I'm Kristen Caruso.

I'm Brandi Pond. Let's go to court! On this episode, I'll be talking about Liberace. And I'll be talking about a fire. Oh, I'm sure that's going to be horribly depressing, but you can't bring me down. You know why? Why? It's our last episode before we go on break.

We're a little hyper, a little excited. Yes. Oh my goodness. It's also, okay, a little excited. Yes. Oh, my goodness. It's also, okay, there's so many things. It's also a two-episode week because we recorded the bonus episode on Monday, which anybody who is a regular listener of this podcast knows that we barely hold it together on the second episode. So with it also being the last episode before break, who knows what you're in for? We're already off the rails.

I'll tell you that right now. For sure. I can't even see the rails. Hey. Hey. Hey. Hey. You know what you're doing wrong?

What? You're not a member of our Patreon. Oh, yeah. So if you are, we're obviously not talking to you. Yeah. You're doing everything right. You're also very hot.

We love you. Yeah. That new thing you're doing with your hair're also very hot we love you yeah that new thing you're doing with your hair it is working now you on the other hand who has not signed up for our patreon and has not done anything new with your hair what are you doing with your life yeah and aren't you gonna miss us while we're on break? Yeah. So you know what you should do?

You should sign up for our Patreon. That way you can binge 41 bonus episodes. Plus, there's about to be a fresh one out. Plus, we're going to put one out in January when we're not putting out any other shit. And hey, remember how Mario Batali is a big creep and you definitely wanted to hear a bunch of big creepy gross stuff about him well it's a Christmas miracle also I did an amazing case

for the film you really did wow humble it's my one of my favorite cases I've ever done no it was great

yeah it was truly great do you want to tell a little bit or not at all so I covered a case of some mysterious deaths that were occurring in a family home bit or not at all? So I covered a case of some mysterious

deaths that were occurring in a family home. Mm-hmm. And let me tell you it was good. So sign up at the $5 level or higher for all those sweet, meaty bonus episodes. Are you humping while you're doing that?

No, I'm not. You're looking right at me. You can see I'm not humping anyone. That is a pelvic thrust motion. My pelvis didn't move an inch. Now my arms did. I thought that was only because your back was hurting. My back? Okay, okay. Yeah. I am a little worried about that bonus episode

because I was in serious back pain and it hurt to laugh. Yeah, that is true. But you know what? I just popped some ibuprofen. You're good to go right now. It's going to kick in any minute. Good to go, baby. G to G, as they say.

That sounds so badass. Also, also. What? Merch. We got merch on the website, lgtcpodcast.com. That's right. There's merch there. Maybe there's some.

What? Juvenile Bigfoot sweatshirts. There definitely are. I mean, unless they're sold out by the time this episode comes out. I mean, the very limited quantities. But yeah. Get them while they're hot. That's right.

Get them while they're sexy. That's what people say. They don't say that. Uh-huh. Nobody says that. Ooh! Tell us about Liberace! Brandy, what do you know

about Liberace? He plays the piano. Yeah. He has very elaborate, sparkly costumes. Uh-huh. I believe he's gay because a line from a movie that I loved when I was a kid.

Austin Powers. No, that's actually not what I was going to quote. Oh, what were you going to quote? It's a movie called, now I'm not going to remember the name of it. It stars French Stewart. It's called something. And at the end of it, he says, you know what? Now I'm gay.

I'm full on Liberace gay. Okay. Because he had a bad dating experience. Yeah, sure. Yeah. Naturally. Yeah. Alright, well. That's the extent of your knowledge. That's the extent of what I know about Liberace. Also, I think he went bald, and so he wore

wigs. Okay, you are so funny, because you're always like, oh, I don't know much about this person. But then, like, it starts to come out, and it always like, oh, I don't know much about this person. But then like it starts to come out and it's like, well, I actually know quite a bit. Because that stuff is just stored up in my brain and like the more I'm speaking it just like filters

down. Yeah, he definitely wore wigs. Okay. Very good wigs because he was very rich. Yeah. Obviously. Yeah. Oh, yeah. He had like gold-plated stuff in his home, right? Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

This man's homes were- Did he have a gold toilet? You're thinking of Donald Trump, but it wouldn't surprise me. I'm not getting the two confused, Kristen. Well, no. He had a gold toilet, didn't he? Donald Trump probably also ball bald under all of that. What do you mean probably?

You're a hairstylist. You know he's bald under that. Under that cotton candy. Yes. He does probably just like a squirrel thing that's happening there. Okay. Have you not seen the photos of when the wind goes, take me away? In that case, would you wear the toupee?

Would you just go full toupee? Love stinks. That's the name of the movie. Oh. I thought that was the weirdest response to the question I just asked you. Very good. Okay. You know what? I'll just get you. Very good. Okay. You know what?

I'll just get started on this story. How about that? That sounds wonderful. And we'll find out random tidbits about Liberace from you because I am 100% convinced that you know a lot about Liberace. I really don't think I know any more about Liberace. Let's see. Let's see who's right.

Shall we? Okay. All right. Here's the deal, gang. A while back, a person named Kristen, spelled with an E, wrote in requesting stories about marginalized people being messy. She was like, the stories about discrimination are important, but we're messy bitches, too. Oh. And I said, all right, you messy bitch.

Suggest a case. And she suggested that we cover the legal battles of Liberace. I didn't know that Liberace had any legal battles until this moment. Beyond the Candelabra. See, you do know shit.

Yeah, that's the name of the movie about him. Yeah, yeah. I've never seen it. Matt Damon is in it, right? Oh, my God, Brandi. Yes, Michael Douglas plays Liberace. Yeah, Liberace. Okay, great. Yeah, see, you know a lot about this stuff.

Okay, yeah. So long story short, Liberace is complicated. Oh, okay. You know what I say. What? Why'd you have to go and make things so complicated? Complicated. Liberace.

Okay, so we're going to start with a caveat. Yeah. Liberace had a lot of legal battles in his day, and I'm just covering the hits. Ooh, wonderful. Also, his most famous legal battle took place in London, so I must issue an international case disclaimer. Wonderful. Shout outs to a BBC documentary called... I thought you got

stuck trying to do the ABCs. Blah, blah, blah. It's a show called Reputations and they did a really good episode on Liberace. Also, there's a quite thorough Wikipedia page. Oh, excellent. And thank you to the New York Times. Here we go.

Well, I'm just saying Matt Damon and Michael Douglas have quite the age difference. Yeah, they sure do. They sure fucking do. We going to talk about that some? Some. We're going to be deeply troubled by it. Okay, great. Ma'am, you're going to feel all troubled by it, ma'am.

You're going to feel all kinds of ways. Okay, great. During this case. Okay. Okay. Well, Lazio Valentino Liberace, he went by Walter, was born on May 16th. He went by Walter? Yeah, as a kid he went by Walter. You're already hung up on this?

What? How do you derive that from his name? Well, I think you have immigrant parents who want to give you a name that honors their culture, but they don't want to make it harder than it already is to be an immigrant in America. Boy, see? Okay. Sorry. People are asking for stories

that aren't about discrimination. Here, you ask the question like that. He was born on May 16th, 1919. Brandy, got anything to say? Wow, you're a terrible friend. It's Kyla's birthday. It's the day after Kyla's birthday. Okay, shit.

Wow. Okay, I thought Kyla's birthday was It's the day after Kyla's birthday. Okay, shit. Wow. Okay, I thought Kyla's birthday was May 15th, but then when you said that, I was like, maybe I remember her birthday wrong. Terrible. You know whose birthday it is. My sister-in-law's birthday. Oh, it is? Yes. Oh.

Well, it's ****** birthday. Sleep that name, Patty. God. Anyway. Because their birthdays were a day apart. And they still are. That is true. He was born in the booming metropolis of West Allis, Wisconsin.

Oh, sure. He had an interesting home life. His dad, Salvatore, who went by Sam. Why? No one knows. He went by Sam. How'd he get that? What?

What the fuck? Was an Italian immigrant who loved music and played the French horn. Oh. And his mom, Frances. Okay, one source said she'd been a concert pianist before she married Sam, but no other source said that. I mean, you know, who knows? Maybe they got the ultimate scoopy scoop.

Yeah. Both Frances and Sam loved music, and they were fascinated by show business. But they lived pretty far from Hollywood, and money was tight. Like I said, Sam was a French horn player, and he played in bands, but most of the time he worked in factories. But he felt strongly that his children should play an instrument. A family of musicians would be his legacy to the world. So he took the children to concerts.

He demanded that they practice their instruments pretty often. And he wanted them to not just play a piece well, but to perform the piece. And little Liberace didn't disappoint. By the way, his friends and family called him Lee later in life. Oh, yeah. But, you know, we're just going to call him Liberace. That's perfect. He started playing the piano when he was four years old, and his talent was undeniable.

years old. And his talent was undeniable. It seems his mom, Frances, didn't exactly share her husband's vision of creating the 1930s version of the Partridge family. She was like, these music lessons are super expensive. And fun fact, we're not rich. We're not even close to rich. So things were a little tense in the Liberace household. Also, Sam was a big old cheater. So life was complicated for little Liberace. He had incredible talent as a musician, but he didn't fit in with the other kids in the neighborhood. In fact, he didn't seem to fit in anywhere. He grew up in the 20s and 30s and he was different. He had a speech impediment, which kids made fun of, and he was kind of feminine and kids made fun of that too.

He didn't like sports and he didn't pretend to. He loved music and fashion and design. He loved to perform. And for the high crime of being unique, he was bullied. Cool. Yeah, I love it. Yeah, it sucks. But the bullying didn't stop him. As a teenager, he got gigs playing the piano at weddings and on the local radio. He played the piano for the talkies. Oh, yeah. And he even performed in strip clubs. Wow. I know. His parents did not like the idea of their son playing at strip clubs, but once he showed them how much money he was making, they were like, well, all right, good for you.

It really seems that rather than try to hide what made him different from other kids, he leaned into it. He dressed lavishly or as lavishly as he could. Right. And he demanded the spotlight. And he became kind of popular at school. And that was good because throughout his life life one of the things that mattered most to Liberace was being well liked by the time he was I don't know anybody like that at all oh my god you know what just lives in my head that moment like it was just a month ago or so we were

recording the podcast and I was in a bad mood and you were in a good mood. And you asked me, well, should I change my mood to be a bad mood so that we can be on the same level? And I was like, holy shit, Brandi. That is nuts. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yep.

Anything to say, Brandi? No. No. By the time he was 20 years old, he was touring the Midwest Liberace played the classics, but he always did it with extra flair And over time, he added more and more showmanship to his performances He changed his act a bit He didn't just play the classics He added in a few pop songs

He called it classical music with the boring parts left out. Oh. He started talking to the audience. He brought people on stage to teach them little lessons and to crack jokes. He didn't bring them on stage to crack jokes. He cracked jokes throughout the performance. Oh, my God, I said that wrong. Oh, no. He cared about the music, but he also learned to care about lighting and costuming and making a connection. He cared about marketing. He referred to himself as Liberace, the most amazing piano virtuoso of the present day.

Oh, he self-proclaimed? Yeah. The Let's Go to Court podcast, the best podcast of its day. Any day. If you ask. My mom. No, no.

See, that's not Liberace energy. You just declare it. Oh, okay. Like bankruptcy. He didn't play on boring old pianos. He played on a gold-leafed grand piano. Some of his pianos were covered in rhinestones. Some were covered in mirrors. Oh, shit.

He performed for Clark Gable and Shirley Temple and J. Paul Getty. He played in Vegas. He shocked people in 1954 when he was paid $138,000 to play at Madison Square Garden. Adjusted for inflation? That's about $1.5 million for one performance. Wow. He got his own TV show when TV was still a new thing. And oh my God, he was great on TV.

Okay, I watched clips from the old show. I mean, it really was engaging. So the higher-ups all told him not to look at the camera. That was the rule. You don't look directly at the camera. You look at the studio audience. But Liberace just ignored that advice. He knew the bigger audience was at home. So when he performed, he sang directly to the camera. He winked at the camera. He flirted. He sang about trying to find the right girl. And it seemed like he was singing right to you. Yeah. Did you feel some tingling? I totally understood why people felt the tingles. It feels intimate. Yeah. Yeah. Because he really

is. He's leaning into the camera and he's so charismatic and he's funny. And it is just this like kind of campy performance. Right. Yeah, I totally get it. Yeah. But also this song that I'm referring to. It's the creepiest fucking song you ever heard. What's the song? Okay, it's like, you know, you're going along with it.

It's like, okay, he's trying to find the girl of his dreams. All right, sure, sure, sure. But then there's a line that's something like, I'm trying to find the girl that dear old dad found. So it's like, I'm trying to marry my mom. And Liberace famously loved his mother dearly. It's really too much. A little bit of an Oedipus situation. O-E-D-I-P-U-S is how I pronounce it.

His TV show became huge. In 1954, the Liberace show was on 179 channels across the United States. So he's like getting fucking rich, right? Like crazy rich. At one point in his career, he was the highest paid performer in the world. Wow. Yeah. Yeah.

And the thing is, like, even when he wasn't at that point, he was still making just tons and tons of money. His audience loved him. He was perfect. He was handsome and funny and well-mannered and he had all these one-liners. He had thick, dark hair and a prominent chin that really worked for him. You could really go either way with a prominent chin. I know. I know. This was not a Jay Leno situation. Same chin, different face. When you watched the show,

you felt like you got a sense for who he was. His beloved mother sat in the front row of the audience and unfortunately he couldn't bang her but he was looking

for the next, you know. I'm just, I'm just talking about that song. So she was regularly featured in the show. Uh-huh.

By that point, Liberace's father had divorced his mom and Liberace was pissed at his dad. They became estranged. So Liberace just kind of took his mom in and made sure she was taken care of. His brother George played in the orchestra and he became a bit of a star in his own right. Over time, Liberace became a massive celebrity. He made incredible money. He was on TV. He was on every magazine. Oh, and because Brandy couldn't keep her pants on, I'm going to now tell you that by the late 1950s, he was the highest grossing entertainer in the world. Oh, wow. Hearing that for the first time. But that didn't mean he was cool.

Critics never liked him. They didn't respect him as a musician, and they certainly didn't respect him as a person. Right. His act was too campy. He was too flashy. He was cheesy. He was this corny, midwestern guy splashily performing for an audience that wasn't sophisticated enough to have better taste. Wow. Uh-huh.

Yeah. But his audience loved him. His audience was mostly women and mostly older women. Yeah. And that was another source of ridicule. Mm-hmm. Because, you know, if a bunch of women like something,

it definitely sucks and we should make fun of it. Right. I fucking hate that. Yes. And, you know, it's not even like older women, but like, oh my gosh, if teenage girls love something, we all make fun of it. Yes.

Boy bands? Yeah. Yes. I was? Yeah. Yes. I was about to say something about how we should all be less judgmental, but then I remembered who I am. After his performance... Do you want to have that conversation in a mirror first and then have it on the podcast? It's me. I'm the problem, it's me.

It's me. I'm the problem, it's me. After his performances, he'd invite everyone on stage to come see his piano and get a hug. His fans got a look inside his life. They saw the home he shared with his family. They saw the pool shaped like a piano. He had multiple incredible homes. What? What is it?

Oh, like the top of a grand piano? Okay, so it's picture, sure, shaped like it, but also there are piano keys painted. Obviously. Duh. Of course. Excuse me. I bet you've only been in regular boring pools. And he would like pretend to play.

Yeah, I get it. You get it? Yeah. It's fun. Here's my favorite detail. In one of his homes, his bedroom, on the ceiling, there was a replica of the Sistine Chapel. Oh, shit. Uh-huh. And so, you know, you got that.

Yeah. And you're thinking, that's not enough. Right. So he had his own face added to the painting. Obviously. Is that weird? No. I have that in my bedroom.

Liberace's face. Oh, my face! Liberace had a gaudy, glitzy lifestyle. He often quoted Mae West, too much of a good thing can be wonderful. The dude loved to spend money. He loved to make money. He wore multiple rings on his fingers,

mostly so that when people asked him how he played piano with all those rings, he could tell them quite well. His costumes were amazing. Like capes, right? Yeah. So the thing he did, especially later in life, he would have these like bright sequined suits. Okay.

And like the one I'm picturing is bright red. Bright red sequined suit. Yeah. With a matching fur cape with bright red lining underneath. And that was kind of like there'd be all different colors. There'd be exotic feathers. Yeah. With a matching fur cape with bright red lining underneath. Yeah. And that was kind of like there'd be all different colors. There'd be exotic feathers. There'd be.

Yeah. I mean, they were incredible. He had ruffles, feathers. No pattern was too bold. No pattern was too busy. No color too bold. Mm-hmm. He called himself a one-man Disneyland.

And he was. What? It sounds like a gross pickup line. How? Disneyland has rides, Kristen. Oh. Well, but it also has the teacups. Which is a ride.

No one's getting banged on the teacups. I'm not saying that someone's getting banged on the teacups. He says, I'm a one-man Disneyland. Care for a ride? I think there are better pickup lines out there. I think you're a little rusty. He would arrive on stage in a Rolls Royce. On stage?

Yes. Like drive it out? Well, a chauffeur would drive it out. Well, yeah, I didn't think he was driving it. But I mean, this was stuff that people weren't doing at the time. Yeah, absolutely. This is also much later in life because time is a construct. So everybody calm down.

Yeah. His act included animals and a young Barbara Streisand. Oh, shit. Babs? I hear she's a real... Did you hear this on your Celebrity Blind podcast? I've got other sources, Brandi. Really? Yeah.

I mean, it's not that surprising. No, it's not, which is why you should just roll with it and thank me for the delightful insider information. Is this like a new theme of yours? Every episode you're going to ruin a celebrity? Okay, I'm not shocking anyone when I say that Barbara Streisand has a bad personality. Yeah, but the Tom Hanks thing, really.

Well, I was wrong about that. He toured Europe. He met the Pope. He performed for Queen Elizabeth. He was in such an enviable position. But he was scared because he was gay. If the public found out about his sexuality, he would very likely lose everything. Right.

His audience, the people who loved him, were older. They tended to be conservative. They were Midwestern, which, of course, is code for really cool. And blind as fucking bats if they didn't know he was gay. Okay. So that's, oh, gosh. That's the hard thing for me about this case is he never, he always denied that he was gay. And there's a part of me that's like, that's so sad for him.

Oh, well, absolutely. And there's all, there's also a part of me that's like, okay, well, also a part of me that's like okay well do i even want to talk about it then right um but at the same time it it it's just undeniable yeah you know but i i don't know i just feel bad for him yeah but also other things happen and makes it complicated and messy yes. Here we go. So Liberace couldn't let people know that he was gay. But like you just said, a lot of people knew. Yeah. Just like when he was a kid, a lot of people just knew. I think this was just him. Yeah.

You know? Yeah. Some stuff you just can't hide. Absolutely. But he didn't want people to know. And his management didn't want people to know. And his management didn't want people to know. It's like how you are a supermodel. Yeah, duh.

You don't tell anybody about it. They just look at me and they're like, what are you doing here? Oh, my God. Should I be paying you to look at you right now? I say, yes, you should. You're very lucky. So they did what they could to create a public image of

Liberace as a heterosexual. And it, you know, it worked to an extent. Did he have, like, did he go, like, publicly out with women? Oh, yeah. Really? Oh, yeah. Famous women? Yes! Okay, are you gonna tell us about it? Yeah, what do you think? Oh, yeah. Really? Oh, yeah. Famous women? Yes.

Okay. Are you going to tell us about it? Yeah. What do you think? Okay, great. As I was saying. I'm sorry. My God.

So it worked kind of to a point, but then he starts getting older. You know, he's in his 30s. He's pushing 40. kind of to a point, but then he starts getting older. You know, he's in his 30s. He's pushing 40. And it wasn't like today where people get married maybe later in life or not at all. No, there's an expectation that he gets married and has kids. This was like fucking weird.

Yes. Why wasn't he married? Why was he still a bachelor? Golly gee, why couldn't he find the right gal? His manager set him up with women who he could pretend to date, Brandy. Oh, wow. Yeah, it seems like sometimes the women knew that they were acting as beards, and in other cases they didn't. Betty White was actually one of the women who would pose as Liberace's girlfriend. Wow. Yeah, so they were really good friends, and whenever the rumors got kind of out

of hand, she would just go on a couple dates with him and things would hopefully die down a little bit. Liberace's PR. Good friend. Yeah. Yeah. I believe. Did Debbie Reynolds do that? There were a couple famous women in rotation who would kind of step in. Yeah. Liberace's PR team created stories for the press about him being a ladies' man. For example, his PR team sent out an article which ran in a popular women's magazine, and this was the headline. Mature women are best, colon. TV's top pianist reveals what kind of woman he'd marry. Okay. Another article they sent out was Liberace gives a few tips on wooing women.

I saw this TV interview with him where he's being asked, like, well, what kind of woman would you marry? And he's like, oh, I think Princess Margaret. And it's funny because you can see in his face like yeah he for sure wants to meet princess margaret yeah and like knowing what we know about princess margaret she they probably would have had a fucking great time together yes but yeah he didn't want to marry princess margaret right Princess Margaret.

Who's Princess Margaret? Oh my God, Brandy. Get it. Oh, fuck. I'm happy to share. Okay. Princess Margaret. Queen Elizabeth's younger sister. Yes.

Okay. Okay. She was spicier. Yes. She was very pretty. Kind of pushed the envelope. Yeah. She fell in love.

She was the wild child. Yeah. She fell in love with this dude. Her sister forbid her from marrying him. It was a very sad situation. Yeah.

That was the guy she really loved all her life. Ugh. Watch The Crown. I was going to say do I need to watch The Crown? Yes you need to watch The Crown.

Okay. Oh my God. You know I'm nothing like you Kristen. I don't get into the Royals. Your TV is woefully neglected have you watched the Harry and Megan Netflix I have not yet but I plan to okay I don't know okay I'm feeling a feared okay what have you heard about it not much much. Well, yeah, but you're not into the royals. Exactly.

You don't know. You don't know shit. That's right. I don't know shit. Yeah. Okay. In 1953, Liberace got engaged to a woman named Joanne Rio. Joanne was an actress, and she was a stand-in for Elizabeth Taylor.

She looked a lot like her. And she lived right across the street from Liberace. Convenient. Yeah, and she was a lot like her. And she lived right across the street from Liberace. Convenient. Yeah, and she was a lot younger, more naive. Liberace and Joanne's relationship was huge news. But they never got married. Yeah. So there are a couple different takes on this.

I think it's one of those situations where it's probably a combination of two things. One, he never intended to marry her. He just needed it out in the press that he'd been engaged. And, you know, that buys you more time. Yeah. The other theory that actually sounds like it really might have happened is her Joanne's dad heard the rumors about Liberace being gay, and he went to his daughter and was like, you should not get married to this guy. Yeah. So engagement adjourned. Yeah.

Also, that's funny because that's what we say at the end of the podcast. It's funny because I'm hilarious. And it's sexy because look at me. I bet if you saw me in a romper that had long sleeves and shorts attached, you'd think it looked really hot until you saw a picture of the item of clothing on its own. That's correct. That's exactly what would happen. Brandi, you want to talk about it? I was nearly bamboozled by an ad today where I showed it to Kristen.

It was this cute little Christmas romper. It was a buffalo plaid situation. And I was like, oh, look at this. Look how cute this is. And Kristen goes, that's not that cute. And then I, like, swiped the picture over and it showed the clothing item not on a hot woman. And she was right. Brandi was totally bamboozled they had the hottest lady in the ugliest pajamas and brandy was like well that

is really fetching that is really something like no you saw me in that you'd laugh turns out joanne and liberace got into a legal battle later in life, but we don't have any goddamn time for that. Oh, okay, great. Just the hits, Brandy. So Liberace and his management tried to keep his sexuality a secret. But there were always rumors. Just a swirling. Just a swirling. Just a swirling.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Especially in the tabloids. Oh. In the early 50s, a groundbreaking celebrity gossip expose magazine hit newsstands. It was called Confidential Magazine. Oh. And they loved to write about Liberace. One year, Confidential Magazine ran a. And they love to write about Liberace.

One year, Confidential Magazine ran a photo of him on the cover. And under it, in all caps, they wrote, EXCLUSIVE! WHY LIBERACE'S THEME SONG SHOULD BE MAD ABOUT THE BOY. Oh shit. The accompanying article was about Liberace going to a hotel in Dallas and hooking up with a dude. Oh. But, of course, it was the 50s, so it was written in this, like, cutesy kind of style.

And here's a line from the article. A referee certainly would have penalized the panting pianist for illegal holds. So silly. Yes. You couldn't just be like, they banged? They banged. Hmm. Well, you got to fill up the space.

Two dudes walked into a hotel. They banged. Liberace was pissed off about that article. He told the press that he would file a $25 million lawsuit. I was going to say, did you sue him? He did. And there's a big legal battle with confidential. And it's so big, it's on famoustrials.com. Oh, wow. Have you heard of this one? No. Okay, I thought about covering it before. Maybe I should. Liberace did play a role in that trial, but a lot of celebrities did. In this particular case, an article from 1958 said that he ended up suing Confidential for $2 million.

Wow. And he settled for $40K, which I'm sure was nothing to sneeze at back in the day. But, you know, you say $25, then you go for $2. Right. Settle for $40. Seems like you're a one-man Disney World. It's a Disneyland. Oh, excuse me.

Yeah, they probably didn't have Disney World yet. Yeah. But around this same time period, Liberace was fighting a similar legal battle in the U.K. And that was because in 1956, Liberace performed in England and women went nuts for him. Did they throw their panties at him? You know, I don't know. That seems a little too much. Seems like not something they were doing at the time.

But I did see some footage of a woman who. Showed her bra strap? Calm down. Well, that's what it looks like you're about to do. No, I am not about to show you anything you fucking wish. No, she had like a tight sweater. And you know they had those like comb moves back in the day. Yeah, torpedo tits.

Uh-huh. And she had like it looked like she'd really taken some time with it she hadn't just written liberace on her sweater she stitched it stitched it or something and you know it did look like she'd kind of run out of space a little bit but you know crowded at the end i mean who am i to judge i've never tried to write liberace on anything would you like to write it on your boobs right now and just see how it goes? I could write Liberace so many times on my boobs. Everyone, that's a subtle way of saying that I have huge hooters.

Any hooters. Hey, you don't want a new set. Not right now. Not when I just walked out. My God, I'd be so offended. A gossip columnist for the Daily Mirror wrote a really nasty column about Liberace. The columnist was William Connor, but he wrote under the pen name Cassandra. Oh.

Here's what Cassandra wrote about Liberace. And I've edited it just a little bit for clarity because there are some references to some old timey brands that I was like, what the fuck is that? Those are now. Bye bye. Okay. Gone. Any hooters. Any hooters.

Any hooters. Out of here. Gone. Any hooters. Any hooters. We're any hooters then. Out of here. I have to report that Mr. Liberace is the summit of sex. Where's your British accent?

Oh, I can't do a British accent. Should I try? Let me be a snooty British columnist. Oh, gosh. Oh, no, I can't do a British accent. I hate it so much. I have to report that Mr. Liberace is the summit of sex, masculine, feminine, and neuter. Everything that he, she, and it can ever want. I have spoken to sad but kindly men on this newspaper who have met every celebrity arriving from the United States for the past 30 years. luminous, quivering, giggling, fruit-flavored, mincing, ice-covered heap of mother love has had the biggest reception and impact on London since Charlie Chaplin arrived at the same station, Waterloo, on September 12, 1921.

This appalling man, and I use the word appalling in no other than its true sense of terrifying, has hit this country in a way that is as violent as Churchill receiving the cheers on VE Day. He reeks with emetic language that can only make grown men long for a quiet corner, an aspidistra, a handkerchief, and the old heave-ho. Without doubt, he is the biggest sentimental vomit of all time. Boy. Slobbering over his mother, winking at his brother, and counting the cash at every second, this superb piece of calculating candy floss has an answer for every situation. Nobody since Amy Simple McPherson has purveyed a bigger, richer, and more varied slag heap of lilac-covered hokum. Nobody anywhere ever made so much money out of high-speed piano playing with the ghost of Chopin gibbering at every note.

There must be something wrong with us that our teenagers longing for sex and our middle-aged matrons fed up with sex alike should fall for such a sugary mountain of jingling claptrap wrapped in such a preposterous clown. Holy shit! Yep! Yep! Whew! Thoughts? That is deep.

That is a deep hatred for Liberace. What? Well, probably in like, I don't know, I would say it probably goes beyond liberace and just like american bullshit see i don't take it that way you don't well yeah a little bit yeah um honestly when i hear especially men yeah go after something no this is a woman yeah

especially men go after something that women like with this kind of vitriol. Yeah. I think it's more about how they feel about women. Oh, absolutely. Honestly. Yeah. Yeah, and also say he doesn't like Liberace much. Do you, I don't want to put anything in your head, but are you picking up any innuendo in this?

Oh, yeah. Okay. Yes. What are you picking up? Well, I mean, there's the comments about his mother and brother that seem very unsettling. What, you don't like to slobber over your mom? I don't slobber at my mom. I don't wink at my brother.

Weird. I guess your family doesn't love each other. So it's worth noting that at this time, most newspapers had never even printed the word homosexual. Yeah. So if a columnist wanted to call Liberace gay, they wouldn't just use those words. They'd dance around it a bit. Uh-huh. So what in that kind of nods to? So there are a couple things. That kind of opening of the summit of sex, masculine, feminine, and neuter, everything that he, she, and it can ever want. Mm-hmm.

Kind of like he's open to everybody. Everything, yeah. can ever want kind of like he's open to everybody yeah and then the other one was the use of the word fruit flavor yeah as a description so there's talk about like okay in america at that time fruit was a derogatory term for a gay man yeah it i don't know that it was necessarily popular in the uk and so there's a discussion about like okay well did this column't know that it was necessarily popular in the UK. And so there's a discussion about like, OK, well, did this columnist know that? I think likely he did, because why would you call someone fruit flavored? That's not something you would say unless you were.

But doesn't. So I think the use of it in the UK is more like profanity. Like they talk about fruity language, which means profanity. Oh, really? Yeah. He's almost like vulgar is how I took that, is what I took that to mean. I do not know. This is like when I found out that in the UK they say skanky to just mean kind of gross. There's no sexual connotation at all.

All right. I didn't know that. Well, I only know that from Ted Lasso. So. Well, that's a very educational program. When the crowd chants that he's a wanker, the announcers at the game apologize for the crowd's fruity language. Oh, wow. I wouldn't have had no idea what that meant. Yeah.

All right. Well. Oh, wow. I would have had no idea what that meant. Yeah. All right. Well. So I took that more to be like he's vulgar with his showmanship or whatever.

That's really interesting. All right. All right. All right. Bottom line, when Liberace read that column, he was incensed. He felt that the columnist had implied he was gay. Right. Particularly with that line, the summit of sex, masculine, feminine, and neuter. And so Liberace sued the newspaper for libel.

He said that the article had damaged his career. And here's a fun fact. At the time, gay sex was illegal in the United Kingdom. It's just nuts to me. It's wild. This case was a bit of a mess. The trial got delayed and delayed. And Liberace had a lawyer he really liked in America. And for the life of him, he couldn't understand why that dude couldn't represent him in America. And for the life of him, he couldn't understand why that dude couldn't represent him in England.

Right. So his American lawyer tried to put him in ease by recommending this ancient, very well-respected barrister named Gilbert Bafus.

Bafus? B-E-Y-F-U-S. Bafus. Bafus. It sounds like you're saying Bafus with like a southern accent. So he was like, Gilbert is a legend. You'll love him.

You're going to love Bafus. You're going to be up to your eyeballs in Bafus with no complaints. He was like, over in the UK, they call him the Fox. Oh. But Liberace went over to England and took one look at Gilbert, who was not in great health and was in his mid-70s, and said that Gilbert looked more like a toothless old lion. So Liberace's like, great, I am totally fucked. The trial began in June of 1959

and it was really something. A lot of fans came out to follow the trial. There were ladies everywhere. In fact, one of them was the judge's wife. She loved Liberace and she was like,

I'm not missing this. Or, I'm not missing this or I'm not missing this I'm sorry that was terrible London kind of says hello with a British accent well that's your fault you named her London she has no no choice. She says, hey-o! Wow. Is she British? Does she watch Peppa Pig? She doesn't watch Peppa Pig.

Okay, because for a while, Allie would say certain words. Like, she would say tomato. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So, some people were on Liberace's side, but the jury was made up of 10 men and two women. And straight dudes tended not to like Liberace. But when the trial began, old Gilbert, a.k.a. the fox. He put his fucking teeth in?

He sure did. And he was a lion with teeth. Yeah. No, it just turned out like he could turn it on when he needed to. And he was pretty theatrical. He had a big, booming voice. And in his opening statement, he said that the columnist who'd written about Liberace was, quote, a literary assassin who dips his pen in vitriol, hired by this sensational newspaper to murder reputations and hand out sensational articles on which its circulation is built.

Woo! Yeah. Fuck! Mm-hmm. And he said that all with a wig on. That's right. It's so weird. It's so weird to me.

When are they going to give that up? I don't know. Probably never? Probably never. They haven't given it up by now. Yeah. When are they going to give that up? I don't know. Probably never? Probably never. They haven't given it up by now. Yeah. I mean, now it'd be embarrassing to stop.

Yeah. All right. I read an article about it recently, and I clicked on it, and it was just a – I just got rickrolled. Are you serious? No, I'm kidding. Oh. Why did I believe that? The columnist had implied that Liberace was gay, and that had done terrible damage to his professional reputation. Had it?

That was the argument. Okay. I mean, I think... Probably. Probably, yeah. Yeah. Because of the argument. Okay. I mean, I think... Probably. Probably, yeah. Yeah. Because of the time. Yeah.

But also, I mean, I don't know if kind of everyone's saying it. How do you... You're playing whack-a-mole at a certain point, right? But the newspaper's legal team was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Nowhere in that column does it say that Liberace is gay. Gerald Gardner, who was the barrister for the Mirror, tried to say that the whole gay thing was just a red herring. He said that Liberace just had a bee in his bonnet about that issue. Gerald argued that everything in that column that had been a statement of fact was true and the expressions of opinion were fair comments.

So in short, nothing illegal happened here. Right. It seems that he walked into this trial prepared for a different kind of argument, maybe one about whether Liberace truly did ooze sex appeal in his shows. And there was a lot of talk about that. Liberace's legal team called character witnesses who were like, he's just a wholesome guy. His performances are not wild and sexual. Right. I didn't get a chub once.

Of course, the biggest moment of this trial was when Liberace took the stand. As part of his testimony, he stated for the record that he was not gay. Here's how that line of questioning went. Barrister. Are you a homosexual? Liberace. No, sir. Barrister. Have you ever indulged in homosexual practices? Liberace. No, sir. Never in my life. I am against the practice because it offends convention and it offends society. Thoughts? I hate it.

Yeah. It's heartbreaking. It is because, I mean, he didn't have a choice but to say that. I mean, he didn't have a choice but to but to say that. I mean, right. Like, yeah, I mean, I. I think that's what's so sad about this. Is he's locking himself in on the record, not to say that you can't ever go back. Of course.

Yeah. But. But yeah. Yeah. He. He couldn't be out. And who knows? I mean, maybe he did have some self-hatred, which that is so sad.

Yeah. He said the article had damaged him professionally. He said, quote, He said, quote, It cost me many years of my professional career by implying that I am a homosexual. It has caused untold agonies and embarrassment and has made me the subject of ridicule. He said the article had damaged his mother's health. And the barrister for the Daily Mirror was like, Really, dude? Just a couple days after that article was published,

the Daily Mirror invited you out on a pub crawl and you went. So Mr. Justice Solomon, that was the judge, was like, you must have been in a very forgiving mood when after your mother had been taken ill, you accepted the hospitality of the paper. And Liberace said that he went because in his experience, when people got to know him, they changed their opinions of him. He said, many times reporters have said, I used to hate him, but now I can't hate him anymore. I have met him and he's a nice guy. So I think that whole thing is so stupid because he,

that pub crawl had been arranged like before he even arrived in London. And I imagine when you're at that level of fame, you have obligations and it's just simply an obligation. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And also, you can't really keep track in the moment necessarily of all the nasty things people are saying about you. Although I'm sure you could at that level. Yeah. Yeah, I think he was just being a pro.

Yeah. Liberace's cross-examination by the Daily Mirror's legal team produced a court scene that I would give my left tit to have witnessed. And I will read it to you now. Please. Okay. They're trying to figure out if this dude is gay, if this article was, you know, what was truthful, what was just opinion. All right.

You ready for this? Yeah. Barrister. Do you use scent or scented lotion? What? What? Everybody knows only homosexuals use scented lotions. Duh. That's how you figure out if someone's gay.

You just gotta sniff them. Liberace. Liberace. Liberace. I use aftershaving lotions and underarm deodorants. Barrister. And are they scented? Yes, they're fucking scented.

Yeah. What? No, I use scentless aftershave. Yeah. What? Liberace. Yes. Barrister. When you come into a room at a press conference, does a noticeable odor come with you?

Liberace. I would not say it is an odor. I would say it is a scent of good grooming that I smell clean and fresh. I always smell clean and fresh. I always smell clean and fresh. I've noticed the scent of the press many times. Ooh! Oh! So, you know, of course, the courtroom burst into laughter.

So Liberace did great on the stand. Yeah. I mean, he's a performer and... Yeah. You're getting questions like that. Are you kidding me? No kidding. Do you use scented lotions?

Admit it. Later, the columnist took the stand and denied that he'd meant to imply that Liberace was gay. He said that, quote, the article was my honest opinion of his performance. He said that his first reaction to Liberace's performance was astonishment, and his second reaction was nausea. Oh, get over it. He wasn't implying the dude was gay. He was just saying that he really hated the performance. Okay. The editorial director for the paper took the stand and said the same thing. Ultimately, the jury sided with Liberace. He was awarded costs and damages.

Damages were set at 8,000 pounds and costs were set at 27,000 pounds. It was the largest settlement of any libel case in British history. But it didn't stop people from speculating about Liberace's sexuality. Right. And he'd now said in court that he wasn't gay. Liberace lived the rest of his life

putting on glitzy, over-the-top performances. He did these exhausting shows that he loved where he performed for like two hours and had tiny breaks for costume changes. I would love to have seen one of these shows. Yeah.

He opened a museum to himself. He opened his own museum? Yeah. So, I mean, he sounds like a bit of a pill, honestly. Sounds like a messy bitch. He rested. Honestly, yeah. Yeah.

Like a messy bitch. He rested. Honestly, yeah. Yeah. So I think he had trouble with the fact that, like, he was hugely famous. Yeah. And he could sell out all these shows, but he didn't have respect. Mm-hmm.

And he worried about what his legacy would be. Yeah. And he worried about what his legacy would be. And so kind of toward the end of his life, he tried to kind of preserve some sort of legacy. Yeah. He continued to make incredible money. He would fly around stage in his costumes held up by wires. He did a kick line with the Rockettes. Wow. He did like this whole string of shows at Radio City Music Hall that at first people were like, oh, no one's going to see that. But hell, yeah, people saw that. I'd see that. People who knew him well said that

he loved being on stage and that probably deep down he had low self-esteem. Right. What he craved was acceptance. He wanted people to like him. Well. What? Yeah. And he never was able to be himself.

Yeah. He never accepted himself. Exactly. He didn't like himself because he wasn't being himself. He probably. I mean, so complicated. Yeah. Yeah.

So even the people who did like him, that is a level of separation from him still because they don't like him for him. They like him for this character that he is in the public. Yeah. You know, it's really sad. Mm-hmm. A member of his team told this story that I... God, I go back and forth on it.

Okay, so here's the story. Libery... Libery. That's what his friends called him. Liberace worked on this show with a crew of about 200 people. And my understanding is it's not like the Liberace show where he was there all the time. It was like this was like a couple times he did this show.

And over the course of doing this show, he made sure that he went up to every single person and talked to them and asked them about themselves. and he used this mnemonic system to remember everyone's names and not just their names, but their kids' names, their spouses' names, so that he was able to talk to everyone on that show and ask them about their families. And, of course, people loved that. That was, like, so much more than you would expect. Yeah. And four years later, he came back to that same studio to do two specials. And the first thing he did was go around the studio, address people by name and ask about their wives and kids.

Wow. I've got goosebumps. Yeah. And, you know, of course, people were amazed by that. They loved that. Yeah. And it's funny because like his friend tells that story of like in terms of, you know, this is how badly he wanted to be liked. And that's right. I mean, that is.

That's him craving. Yeah. Acceptance. Absolutely. But I think the people of Pleaser in me is like, oh, that's a great idea. You know what I'm going to do now? I'm going to memorize a thousand names. That was my exact reaction, Kristen!

I know! That's why I was like, oh, this is fucked up, because I hear it and I'm like, I should try to do this. What a wonderful idea! Uh-huh, uh-huh. So you hate yourself and you try to make other people love you. Great. Tell me how to do that. let's not talk

about the problems behind that let's learn some skills related to that that's sad oh boy yep but he always kept his secret his secret that wasn't truly a secret. Yeah. I mean, I think that's kind of the wildest thing. So one of his friends was interviewed for a documentary I watched, and I can't remember exactly how she described it, but she was just like, he was the only one who didn't know it was not a secret. The only one who thought it was a secret. Yes. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Liberace always had lovers. And in 1976, he decided to settle down with a teenager. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So this concludes the portion of our story where we really feel for Liberace. Yeah.

I mean, it doesn't, though, because you're going to feel for him. I don't know. It's very complicated. Yeah. So in 1976, when Liberace was 50 fucking seven, he met a teenager named Scott Thorson. Is this Matt Damon? Yes, this is Matt Damon. Yeah, okay.

A.K.A. Scott Thorson. Yeah. Scott was in the foster care system, so he was very vulnerable. Vulnerable. Yeah. Boy, we love this. Don't we love it? Yeah.

He'd been working as a dog handler for the film industry when the two met at a party. And Liberace groomed him. Scott was 17 or was he 16? Oh, boy. And Liberace took an immediate liking to him. They started dating. Scott and Liberace were together for about five or six years. They lived together. Liberace gave Scott generous gifts of mink coats and huge diamonds.

They traveled the world. They were committed to each other. Liberace actually employed Scott. Scott became a dancer in his shows. And when Liberace would arrive on stage in a Rolls Royce, Scott was his chauffeur. OK, so so many things I hate about this. that in these documentaries, when they interview Liberace's friends, so many people are like, oh, Liberace was so good to Scott,

just gave him all kinds of great stuff and was so good to him, took care of him. He was an old man. Yeah. Who groomed... Scott was a child. Yes. You think you can Scott was a child. Yes. You think you can give someone a bunch of fur

coats and that makes it okay? Oh, boy. Lord almighty. Yeah. Yikes. We're not even to the grossest part. Oh, good. Yeah. You know, I was thinking, I was like, this doesn't sound bad enough yet.

Yeah. 16 and 57? No big deal. No was like, this doesn't sound bad enough yet. Yeah. 16 and 57, no big deal. No big deal. Age ain't nothing but a number. Scott later said that he was so young and so impressionable and in love that he would have done anything to please Liberace. Of course he would. He said, quote, Liberace had taken me out of a situation with a father who was very abusive, a mother who was mentally ill. I did everything I possibly could to please that man. And so when Liberace asked Scott to get a ton of plastic surgery,

surgery scott agreed do you know this part somehow yes yeah liberace wanted scott to be given surgery to look like a younger version of himself so one version of this said he got a picture another said he got an oil painting of himself from when he was younger anyway bottom line is he told the plastic surgeon i want you to make scott look like me yeah oh create him in my image yeah so i can pretend like i'm fucking my son i don't or myself maybe then i'll love myself. Well, I really love that version of it way better. So Scott got a chin implant and high cheekbones and a nose job. And Liberace evidently loved it. How'd Scott feel about it? You know, again, he was so young. I mean, like, you're talking about, like, major, major surgery when you're, like, 20?

Yeah. He later got the chin implant removed because, yeah. Yeah. I never considered a chin implant. What do you think? How big would you want to go? I don't know. Maybe if if i had a bigger chin my face would look less round right i mean yeah add a couple feet and you're gonna have a real long face isn't it interesting to wonder like what little what would little tweaks yeah what could a little tweak here and there do?

And this is how we end up on Botched. That's exactly right. Because we're like, I don't want to go too crazy, but I want to get my money's worth. That's right. And suddenly I look very surprised all the time. They're like, ma'am, good plastic surgery should whisper. It shouldn't scream. Have you heard that they're saying people should stop getting that cat eye thing?

Yeah. I always thought that was the weirdest one. Yeah. Okay. What I would get is a little tuck right here. Okay. Because I think it does a couple of things. All right. It makes the face look a little less here. Okay. Because I think it does a couple of things. All right.

Makes the face look a little less round. Okay. Makes the jaw look a little bit more defined. And it widens the mouth. And I've always liked a wide mouth. Really? Yes. What do you like about a wide mouth?

I don't know. There's something about it that's very appealing to me. You know, every now and then you say things. And I'm like, is this why she was drawn to me? You love a veiny gal. I do. I am quite veiny. You are veiny.

I've got a pretty wide mouth. Yeah. But you've got a really wide mouth yourself. You can fit your whole fist in there. I mean, it's not particularly wide. It's just big. Deep. It is deep.

Deep and wide. Oh, my God. Shut that thing, would you? Like looking into a cave. It is. I'm like the fucking Cave of Wonders. Who dares to disturb my slumber? Wow.

That really takes me back. Do you mind if I turn the fan on? Turn it on. It's because I was talking about my mouth, right? Got y'all hot? I'm in a swamp. Holy Moses. No, I accidentally stumbled upon a video of someone getting that threading thing done.

Boy, that's something you don't want to watch. No. Have you seen it? Yeah. What? Would you do it? Yeah. What? Would you do it? No. Okay.

No, I don't think so. Yeah. Now, if someone told me there was a way to sculpt some cheekbones for me, I think I'd fillers in the cheeks. You wouldn't do fillers because you're worried that they're going to move around, right? They're not going to stay where you want them? Well, I think here's my problem. I've seen too many bad plastic surgeries.

And, you know, when you see the good stuff, you don't know you're looking at it. So, like, I see some of that pillowy filler face. And I'm like, well, I've got enough pillowy stuff going on on my own. I don't need to pay for more. Yeah, I need something. Snatched. I was going to say something. It was going to sound very gross. I want something hard and sculpted in my face. Yeah. Yeah, I need something snatched. I was going to say something that was going to sound very gross. What?

I want something hard and sculpted in my face. Yeah. Yeah. It's not gross at all? It sounded gross. Well. It sounded inappropriate. And we have such high standards on this podcast. It is a family show.

Generations gather around the iPod to listen to this show. Wait, is anybody listening to this on an iPod? Yes. Yes, that is. Those are the ones. Is that too loud? I don't know that it's too loud, but it is turned up very high. It is.

I'm going to blow out of my seat. That's just from toots. Yeah, right. Oh, that's right. I forgot. You don't toot. No, never. Yeah.

Never shall wind escape this rectum. Rectum damn near killed him. Okay, moving back to the case. And away from Brandy's tight tight butthole super tight oh god now i'm getting into the sad stuff and we just all right you know right okay so the deal was with the plastic surgery yeah um a couple things happened they went to this weirdo plastic surgeon who like hey here's the deal. You come and get plastic surgery from me.

I'm going to hook you up with some cocaine, some Quaaludes, some all kinds of stuff. Oh, no. So Scott becomes like addicted to drugs. Right, to drugs. And he also, I don't know, he wanted to become like Hollywood skinny, which, you know, that means drugs. Yeah. But also just like eating right and exercise. That's right.

That's not just calorie deficit. That's all you have to do. That's right. Yeah. That's why I'm 25 pounds. Just have to make smart decisions. You stupid bitch. So Scott became addicted to drugs.

He says that Liberace was unfaithful to him and things eventually soured in their relationship. Shocking. Yeah. The tough thing about dating teenagers is they're so unpredictable. So after roughly five years together, Liberace dumped Scott. He had him physically removed from the home that they shared. Wow. Yeah.

Which meant that Scott was also fired. Yeah, I mean, yes, he completely relied on Liberace. Mm-hmm. Great. I bet that worked out really well for Scott. Yeah. So Scott was left with absolutely nothing. Yep.

And so he decided to sue. Yeah. And it was groundbreaking. In 1982, Scott sued Liberace for $113 million in palimony. This was the first same-sex palimony case in American history. In his lawsuit, Scott claimed that he had a personal services agreement with Liberace, and that agreement required him to serve as Liberace's chauffeur, companion, and lover. In exchange, he got a salary, equity interest in real estate, and promotional profit. Scott claimed that as part of the agreement, he had to stop going to school

and give up his other professional ambitions in order to be Liberace's chauffeur and companion. This lawsuit was horribly embarrassing for Liberace because Scott was claiming accurately that they'd had this romantic relationship. Remember, Liberace wasn't gay. Liberace told the media that Scott was full of shit. He was a drug user, a drug dealer, a pathological liar. He was a gold digger. They'd never had sex. They'd never been in a relationship. In an interview, Liberace said, in fact, everything this young man said has been proven to be a horrible lie. And there's a reason for him being a pathological

liar and the reason he was fired, because he heavy into drugs he not only used cocaine but he distributed cocaine and i couldn't have anybody in my company who did that sort of thing that's fucking terrible yeah yeah it's inexcusable yeah and i mean he says it so coldly. Just writes off this kid. Liberace was, of course, deposed for this lawsuit. And as he always had, he denied that he was gay. He said that he and Scott had never had a romantic relationship. This case got a lot of media attention.

And a judge dismissed the palimony claim, but Scott did get something. He got $75,000, three cars, and three dogs. Okay. Interestingly, this kind of helped Liberace's career. Really? Yeah, it got him back in the news. Oh, right. Well, I don't know.

By that point, everyone knows he's gay, right? So it's not like this was like shock. I mean, maybe, I don't know. People didn't seem shocked by... Are his parents still alive at this point? Oh, gosh. I don't know. People didn't seem shocked by. Are his parents still alive at this point? Oh, gosh. I don't think so. I'm just curious if he had like some promise to his mother that he made that he would never let anyone know about, you know. Hmm.

See, here's the thing so for a long time he lived with his mother and his brother george and george just flipped out because you know when liberace was in public he'd be with women but at the house it was dudes yeah it was dudes all the time. And so I, you know, if you were close to him. You knew. You knew. Yeah. And there was. Yeah.

You witnessed it. Yeah. Yeah. Hmm. Yeah. Liberace ended up firing his brother at one point because George just couldn't handle. Well. Yeah.

So this kind of helped his career. It got people talking about him again. He performed at Radio City Music Hall. He was this icon. But at the same time, he was getting thinner and thinner. He became pale. Liberace was sick. But that was also a secret.

When people asked, he claimed that he'd gotten carried away with a watermelon diet, you know, just lost too much weight. The truth was that he had AIDS, but he didn't want anyone to know. He felt that if people knew he had AIDS, that would settle once and for all this argument over whether he was gay. once and for all this argument over whether he was gay his friends have said that he was just really in denial yeah and oh gosh okay so on the one hand this is's like, yeah, I imagine you would be in denial. So much of who he was was like positive mindset and just believe he just believed he would be fine. Yeah. He was also pretty young. He was like in his mid-60s. But it has been alleged that during this time, he knowingly infected at least two young men with HIV.

Oh, Lord. Yeah. So, see, that's where you lose me. Boy, yeah. Right? Like, you get me? Oh, God. Oh.

AIDS was still fairly new at the time. Rock Hudson had died from it a year earlier, and there was a ton of gross media interest in finding the next celebrity who had it. Toward the end of his life, media outlets reported that Liberace had AIDS, and he and his management team issued denials. He never wanted anyone to know. On February 4th, 1987, when he was just 67, Liberace died. His personal physician determined that he had died from cardiac arrest. And he was supposed to be immediately cremated.

Mm-hmm. But the coroner for Palm Springs, a guy named Ray Carrillo, demanded that Liberace's body be brought to Palm Springs so that he could find out for certain whether Liberace had died from AIDS. I hate this so much. Yeah, can they do that? I hate this so much. Yeah, can they do that? Yeah, evidently. Wow. This was a huge news story.

Helicopters flew over the hearse on its way to the autopsy. Oh, my gosh. The coroner's office received more than 2,300 phone calls over the course of two days from people all over the world wanting to know how Liberace died. It was a circus. The coroner said that police had taped around the building and people just crawled under the tape. And on February 10th, 1987, the coroner called a news conference to unveil his findings. That's disgusting. It's such an invasion of privacy. Yeah. And for what? Exactly.

He said, Mr. Liberace did not die of cardiac arrest and cardiac failure due to encephalopathy and anemia as certified by the physician on the death certificate. Somebody was trying to play fast and loose with the Riverside County Coroner's Office. They probably pulled something they thought they could get away with. In layman's terms, Mr. Liberace died of an opportunistic disease caused by acquired immune deficiency syndrome. So there it was. Liberace had died from complications related to AIDS. Wow. That's something I did not know about Liberace. I didn't. Didn't know that he died of AIDS?

No. Yeah. See, I just didn't know much about Liberace in general. I was disgusted by this stuff at the corner. It's horrible. I was disgusted by this stuff with the coroner. It's horrible. A lot of people who are close to Liberace were so angry at that coroner. Yeah.

They said that he just wanted his 15 minutes of fame. That's exactly what it seems like. Well, and when he was interviewed, Ray kind of admitted it, I think. Here's what he said he said i was uh all of a sudden forced into the limelight and it's a matter of ego i guess i didn't fear anything i didn't uh and i guess you could say i did enjoy the limelight because it made me world famous Wow. I mean, yeah, he does admit it. Yeah. You incredible douchebag. Seriously. Boy.

That's how you want to be world famous? Okay. Here's another thing I hate and I didn't write down. Once it was revealed that Liberace died from AIDS, the Daily Mirror ran a headline asking for a refund. Holy shit. Yep. Yep. Real cute, huh? Yeah.

Um, I want to end with a quote from one of his biographers. I just kind of loved it when he said this. He goes, I don't think he had a big influence on the world of music. I don't see a lot of Liberace CDs in the record stores, but he certainly made it all right to be a screaming queen on stage he opened the door to give other performers the right to be flamboyant yeah and i think that's so true when you look at his performances it's so showy it's you see the pop stars of today in there yeah god think of how boring concerts were before liberace yeah um one other thing i didn't mention so a lot of times and when you read stories about especially like the tabloid stuff he got into it's attributed in so many different places in that story that he you know was asked about oh the the negative press and he said oh yeah i cried all the way to the bank oh yeah and so like he liked that line so much that he used

it in like every story so it's impossible to know the first time he really did use it but yeah cried all the way to the bank laughed all the way to the bank yeah that's a liberace line i did not know that and he later said when he got even more wealthy he was like i don't cry all the way to the bank anymore i bought the bank and that is the story of that messy bitch liberace wow i know complicated feelings I just I gotta say it's mostly love yeah no he went after a fucking kid

no exactly it's so complicated this is why I hate god damn he's messy damn it Liberace. I know. I don't know how to feel. I don't know how to feel either.

Boy, oh boy. You want to talk about fire? Sounds like it's going to be really depressing. It is. Okay, great. But you know what? We'll know exactly how to feel. That's right. It won't be any of that messy

Liberace shit. It will not be complicated. You will know exactly how to feel. Alright, great. Shout out to Cum Kardashian in the Discord for recommending this case. A little bit of side eye at you, though, Cum Kardashian, because she recommended this case to you, Kristen,

when clearly it is a brandy case. but she wanted it covered by the superior podcast okay how dare you no what she actually said was uh that she so she recommended it to you but said this does actually seem like more of a brandy case but you will like a name in the case so a name and a name in the case. A name in the case? A name in the case, yes. Oh, well, okay. It's funny you should mention that because when you called dibs on this person, I was like, what a cute name.

But yeah, I'm not going to cover a whole awful case just because the guy's name is cute. I'll tell you that right now, come Kardashian. Okay, so most of this comes from two sources.

An episode of Accident, Suicide, or Murder. Oh my, yes. And an episode of 2020 that I read and did not watch. You big weirdo. It was New Year's Day in 1991 in Murphys, California, and the Carlson family was having kind of a low-key day at home. Murphys is a small town in the foothills of the Sierra Nevada mountains and was originally settled during the California gold rush as a mining town.

This area in general is pretty secluded, and the Carlson family, which was comprised of husband and wife Carl Carlson. That is terrible. It's a terrible name. That is the worst. No one should be allowed to do that. I know. What were his parents thinking?

They were like, this is going to be so cute. Yeah. And it's not. His name, Carlson is spelled K-R, I'm sorry, K-A-R-L-S-E-N. And so they spelled Carl K-A-R-L-S-E-N. And so they spelled Carl K-A-R-L. Yeah. Carl Carlson. No.

Anyway, the Carlson family was comprised of Carl and his wife, Christina Carlson. Oh, no. Yeah. And their three young children, a boy and two girls. And they all lived in like the most secluded part of town. So it's already a secluded area. And then they live like in a more sec two girls. And they all lived in like the most secluded part of town. So it's already a secluded area. And then they live like in a more secluded area. So there's like no fire department in this town.

And the neighboring fire department is going to take forever to get to this place. Okay. This is terrible. They rented an old miner's cabin that was like barely habitable. Oh, okay. Yeah. I was about to be like, oh, cool. But yeah, no, no, that would be rough. It was heated with kerosene heaters and then the heated air was circulated through the house by an attic fan. Okay. On this particular January afternoon, the kids had all gone down for naps and Christina Carlson decided to take a bath.

According to Carl, though, she had complained that it was cold in the bathroom. So he'd gone up to the attic to adjust the fan to direct more of the heated air into the bathroom area. After he came down from the attic, Carl went out to the detached garage to grab some tools, presumably for another project he was working on. But when he came out of the garage, tools in hand, he was met by a horrible sound. Christina was screaming from inside the house. She was screaming to Carl and she was screaming to him to get the kids out because the cabin had gone up in flames.

Carl immediately sprung into action. He tried to run into the house to get his family out, but the fire was burning out of control. But Carl was quick thinking. He ran around the outside of the house to the window of the two girls' bedroom. He broke out the window and pulled the girls to safety. Thank God. Yeah. Then he ran around to his son's room and again broke out the window.

This time, though, when he broke the window, a ball of flames hit him in the face. It, like, burned his eyes closed for a moment. But he reached in through the broken window and found his son Levi and pulled him out by his hair. That is incredible. Yeah. Remind me again of the kids' ages. They're young.

They're all like six or under. Oh my God. This is a nightmare. Yes. The window to the bathroom, though, where Christina had been bathing was boarded up. It had been for weeks. It had broken and the Carlson's had been unable to afford to replace it. So Carl had nailed a piece of plywood over the opening from the inside.

Christina was trapped. Carl could not get to her. Gina was trapped. Carl could not get to her. At this point, Carl loaded the kids into his car and told them that they needed to drive to a neighbor's house to call 911. And as they drove, he told the kids, mommy's in heaven now. Wow. heaven now. Wow. It was 2.26 p.m. when fire crews arrived at the Carlson home in response to a residential fire call. Carl Carlson told the firefighters that he'd been able to get the kids out. He walked them through what had happened, talked about how he'd taken that flame to the

face. But all in all, the kids and Carl, they were uninjured. They had no injuries? No. But he hadn't been able to get to his wife, Christina. She had been trapped inside. Fire crews went to work exhausting the blaze. I'm sorry. Fire crews went to work extinguishing

the blaze and within an hour the fire was out and the blaze was like all right i'm so exhausted i've been working too much i've not done any self-care and god knows how long I just need to lie down. Enough, Kristen. Okay. First responders found Christina's body in the bathroom of the rundown house. It was terrible. She was laying in the bathtub.

Carl told the first responders who were on scene that he thinks he knew how the fire had started. When he'd gone up to work in the attic to reposition that attic fan, he'd brought a utility light up with him. And when he'd come down, he just kind of absentmindedly set that light on a table outside of the bathroom. He feared that while he was outside in the garage getting the tools, that that utility light must have fallen off of that table and lit the carpet on fire outside of the bathroom door. Hmm. But, OK.

What? Would that really happen? Well, so at this point, the first responders on scene, the firefighters, police officers who had responded, all noted a really heavy smell of kerosene at the scene. And Carl was like, well, there's a couple reasons for that. Number one, the house is heated with kerosene. Yeah. And number two, just a few days ago, Christina spilled a bunch of kerosene on the floor, on the carpet right outside the bathroom door. Oh, no.

And so they were like, OK, tell us tell us more about that, because it was very clear already that that's where the fire had started right outside the bathroom door. Right. And so they're like, OK, tell us more. And so at that point carl told them that this house was in horrible disrepair it should not have been rentable the owners were not taking care of it and they as the carlson's couldn't afford to do the repairs that it needed and so like they were having to bring how much life insurance did he have on his wife. Oh, what? Life insurance? Yeah. Huh. I don't know

about... I think you do know about that. Maybe just like $200,000 in life insurance. Oh, yeah. Okay. Anyway, so here's what happened. They also didn't have hot water in the house, so they were having to bring buckets

of hot water in when they were bathing. And so one day Christina went to bring water in, and oops, she accidentally grabbed a bucket of kerosene instead of a bucket of water and it spilled all over the floors. No, how would that happen? That is so ridiculous. So the smell, they just could not get rid of it. They just could not get rid of it. How would you accidentally get kerosene when you wanted water? And so what Carl feared was that that utility light, when it fell, it fell directly onto that carpet and the filament and it broke.

The bulb obviously shattered. Filament broke and caused a spark, which then ignited the carpet where that kerosene had just soaked in. Okay. It's just perfect explanation. Yeah, not really. Makes sense, Kristen. No. I've heard a brandy story a time or two.

I know that this man killed his wife. Yeah, so, um... The people on scene were like, that sounds fucking weird. Yeah. There was recently kerosene poured on the floor of this house. And then like a utility light falls and just happens to start a fire right outside the bathroom door of a woman who is now trapped inside that bathroom. And you just happen to have nailed the window shut. That's right.

But, you know, Carl had an explanation. He had an answer to every question. And so they were like, maybe this really is a horrible tragedy. No, they didn't think that. They did. For real? For real. Initially, they were like, all right, we've got to look into this further.

This seems very sketch. But then they did an autopsy and Christina had died from smoke inhalation. There was no sign that she had been injured or incapacitated in any way before the fire. Well, yeah, there are multiple ways to kill someone in a fire, and one is to trap them in a room. Well, come on. come on so her cause of death was determined to be smoke inhalation but the coroner left the manner of death as undecided he did not declare it an accident or a homicide if you think carl's responses to an explanation to the fire are odd then just wait till you hear what he did the day after the fire. He let Christina's family know that he was taking the kids and he was moving back to his hometown in upstate New York. He didn't stay for a funeral.

He made no burial arrangements for Christina. He left that all in the hands of her family. Oh, my God. And he loaded up the kids and moved across the country. Okay. It's funny because initially when you said that, I was like, well, I can see moving after something like this. But no, you would. Yeah, I could see moving. You have no place to live now you would. Yeah, I could see moving.

You have no place to live now. Yeah. Like, I get that. And maybe he's got family in New York. So that makes sense. Yes. But to not attend the funeral of your wife and your children. No, to not plan it.

To not do the thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just took the kids and left. Christina's family was suspicious as fuck. I bet they were. And they were convinced that this was no accident. They decided to collect their own evidence. So they went to the scene of the fire. They thought Christina's death had not been an accident. They thought that this fire had been intentionally set.

So they went to the house with a camcorder and they recorded footage of the rubble that remained after the blaze. And they noted on this recording where it looked like there were fingernail marks in the plywood. Oh, God. Like there were fingernail marks in the plywood. Oh, God. Where it looked as if in her final moments, Christina had tried to escape that bathroom. But the plywood was affixed to the wall with like way more nails than would ever be necessary. Oh. Mm-hmm.

Okay. Oh. Mm-hmm. Okay. Yeah. They thought that was super suspicious. Right. Because why would you use a ton of nails for that? Yeah. Yeah. They also questioned why Carl hadn't tried to break through the plywood from the outside.

He had managed to break the windows to the kids' bedrooms and pulled them to safety. But he hadn't even attempted to gain access to the bathroom. But Carl had offered an explanation for this as well, just as he had for everything else. He said that he thought the window opening was simply too small for an adult to be able to exit through. And so he thought Christina had no chance of making it out that window anyway. So I saw this footage. Okay. It is. I mean, bathroom windows are smaller than standard windows, right? It doesn't look that small yeah i i can't imagine now here's the thing like first of all i can't imagine you've got three young traumatized kids you've

of course have to keep them away from the fire somehow you've got to do all that um and so maybe you do have to make a decision about your next move and maybe it's a little cold but at the same time i really can't imagine not at least trying right and he admitted he had not even attempted. Yeah. Because he just thought there's no way she could make it out of that window anyway. Not with all those nails I put in it. Right. They also thought Carl's story about the fireball where his eyes were burned shut and they thought it was bullshit because he he was not injured in any way he was like straight up went to the family and was like look how badly burned i am and they were like

you're not you're not your eyebrows yeah exactly he still had his eyebrows yes oh well no the fireball did not get anywhere near you dude yeah so christina's family took this video that they made and all of their concerns to the police they asked them to do a formal criminal investigation into this fire and into carl they pointed out carl's odd behavior you know leaving town without planning a funeral telling the kids their mom was dead before the fire crews had even arrived at the house. Before they'd even called 911. Yeah. And then there was his weird response when Arlene, Christina's mom, had said that she wanted to see her daughter's body.

Carl had said, oh, you don't want to do that. She's a crispy critter now. Oh, my God. Mm-hmm. Carl had said, oh, you don't want to do that. She's a crispy critter now. Oh, my God. Yeah. What a fucked up thing to say. Seriously. The investigators or the police that had been on the scene that day, they had noted a few things in the fire investigation themselves that they thought was odd.

The kerosene was odd, like the super strong smell of kerosene. His story about the utility light, when they found the utility light, it wasn't broken, which means that the filament had never the filament was intact, which means it had never sparked. Brandy, it was just a theory. OK. OK. He's no expert. Right. The filament was intact, which means it had never sparked. Well, Brandy, it was just a theory, okay? Okay. He's no expert. Right. He's just the guy who set the fire. Uh-huh.

Yeah. So they did think things were a bit suspicious, just as Christina's family did. And when investigators talked to, like, I don't know, the chief in the area, they asked, you know, let's fly out to New York at least. Let's re-interview Carl Carlson and see where we go, where we can take this investigation. They were told that there simply weren't funds to do that. Really? Mm-hmm.

Really? Mm-hmm. And so, despite Christina's family's best efforts, on March 3rd, 1991, Christina's death was officially ruled an accident. And the case was closed. Because they couldn't afford plane tickets to New York? Yep. They couldn't even make a phone call and be like, hey, New York, love ya. Could you ask a dude a couple questions for us?

Apparently not. Well, isn't he brilliant? Mm-hmm. All you have to do is drive across the country and that's... Yeah. You might as well have gone halfway across the world. Yep. Okay. Yeah. So with Christina's death officially ruled an accident, Carl was able to file a claim for her life insurance and he received a payout from State Farm for approximately $215,000.

He used that money to purchase a portion of his family's farm in upstate New York. And he settled into life there with the kids. About a year later, he met a woman named Cindy Best. And they really... Run, girl. What? I said run, girl. Right.

And they really hit it off and they married. And for the next decade and a half or so, Carl Carlson and his wife Cindy and the kids lived a fairly normal, quiet life in upstate New York. Wow. The children were obviously not without their issues from losing their mom in such a traumatic way at such a young age. Carl and Levi, he's his son, butted heads a lot. So much so that Levi moved out by the age of 16. He got married at 18. Oh, wow.

And quickly had a family of his own. He and his wife had two daughters really close together. But marriage and parenthood at such a young age is really hard. And it wasn't long before Levi and his wife had separated. But Levi was a dedicated father and worked hard to give his young daughters a good life.

Mm-hmm. But on November 20th, 2008, 17 years after Christina Carlson died in that fire, tragedy struck the Carlson family again. Oh, no. That afternoon, Cindy Best called 911. Her stepson had been working on the family truck and that it had fallen off the jack and that Levi, who was now 23, had been pinned beneath it.

She said, I think he's dead. He's not breathing. Oh, my God. Police arrived to the scene and they found that Cindy was correct. He had been crushed by a 5,000 pound vehicle when it fell on his chest. But it also appeared to them that he'd been dead for hours by the time they arrived. But Carl Carlson had an explanation for it. I'd love to hear it. He said that he had asked Levi to come over and do some work on the truck. He jacked up the front end of it, put it on some jack stands. He had noticed that the jack stands were a little wobbly. He had noticed that the jack stands were a little wobbly.

And then Levi had gone to work on the truck and Carl and Cindy had left to go to Cindy's aunt's funeral. And when they'd returned, they found that the truck had fallen off the wobbly jack stands and had crushed Levi. Did he have life insurance on his son? Maybe. Maybe like $700,000 in life insurance on his son. Yeah, No. Mm-hmm. A family doctor was willing to come to the scene and sign off on the death as accidental. And so no autopsy was done.

And then fucking Carl moved to Vermont and the police were like, oh, so far away. No, literally no investigation was done. It was just a tragic accident. He had 700,000. Maybe nobody knows about the life insurance yet, Kristen. Well, they're about to find out, right? Who has that on their adult kid? Well, we will get there, Kristen.

All right. You know what I think? I think just automatic arrest. Anyone who has big life insurance. No, everybody felt terrible for Carl. It was another tragedy. Everybody but Christina's family. Yeah, everyone but the people who know him really, really well. When Christina's mother, Arlene, got the call that Levi had died in this accident, she said, this was not an accident.

No. It has happened again. Unbelievable. Again. Unbelievable. You lose your child and then you lose your grandchild. Yep. Yeah.

A couple of years went by. Are you kidding me? So Levi's sisters both kind of like confronted their dad at some point in there about like, oh, my God, what what happened? How did this happen? How could this have happened? And he was adamant that it was just an accident. And they asked him about life insurance. Had Levi had life insurance? And he had told them that he'd had a small life insurance policy. Just enough to cover his burial. Yeah.

Yeah, 700 grand should do it. Yeah. it. Yeah. Christina's family spent the next couple of years really questioning Levi's death, questioning Christina's death, but no one had ever listened to their suspicions about Christina. And so they didn't really even bother to say anything to the police at the time of Levi's death because they're like, nobody's going to nobody's going to listen to us. So, like I said, a few years went by, like four years went by. But by 2012, Carl and Cindy's marriage was like falling apart. Things were not going well.

And Cindy said she started to have some pretty serious suspicions that Levi's death was not an accident. She really believed that Carl may have been involved in Levi's death, which made her wonder if he was also involved in his first wife's death. Oh, that's some scary shit. Yeah. So she began to wonder, like, should I be worried for my safety? Could yes. Could I be the next victim? Absolutely. You're the most logical next victim. Get out.

The next victim? Absolutely. You're the most logical next victim. Get out. Her concerns just grew and grew and grew to the point that she finally hired a private investigator to look into her husband. Wow. Yeah. I love it.

Okay. So it was then that she learned the full extent of the life insurance money that he had received for Levi's death. He had received $700,000 in life insurance payouts because Levi had died in an accident. She also learned through this private investigator that Carl had a million dollar life insurance policy on her. Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. The private investigator came to her with this information and was like, you need to leave. Yeah. You are not safe.

Can you imagine? No. Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. And I guarantee you I'd be doing something stupid like well i've got to leave but first i gotta pack a bag first i gotta get my makeup first i gotta blah blah blah and then i die you know right yeah but never more than five feet from my eyeliner right exactly yeah so she finds out he's got a million dollar life insurance policy on her. How long had he had that? Do you know?

I don't know. Okay. But what she found out is that the policies that had been paid out on Christina and Levi, those had both been purchased two to three weeks before their deaths. Okay. No, no, no, no, no, no. How does anyone get away with that? Right? Yeah. At some point when she became suspicious

of Carl, she looked into the policy that he had purchased for Levi, and at that time, Carl had been listed as the beneficiary, but it was like written in the footnotes that that money was then to go to Levi's children in the event of his death. And then Carl had been like, well, you know, it's I am to dole it out to them as needed when they need braces and glasses and

whatever. But he had been spending a lot of that. Of course he had. Yes. And then she learned that there were also life insurance policies on Levi's two daughters. And when she learned that, she actually was able to cash out those policies, cancel them, get a premium refund. Yes. Yes. So that that was not. Well, you got to tell Levi. Well, Levi was dead by that. Oh, I'm sorry. You've got to tell Carl. Yeah. Yes. And I don't know the specifics of that. If Carl knew she'd canceled the policies he had, I mean, she would have to tell him because otherwise you're not doing any good by canceling them. you're not doing any good by canceling them. I'd be really interested to know how that conversation went. Yeah, it's like I guess you can't have that conversation necessarily without revealing what you know.

Right. So basically you're just ensuring that if he does kill them that he doesn't profit from it. Yeah. So when she finds out that he's got a million dollar policy, it's even a little over a million, like 1.2 million if she died in an accident. Which she would. Exactly. So she calls her cousin and she's like, I don't know what to do. I've just found all of this out. I don't, I think I, you know, with all of this

information, I'm convinced now that Carl killed Levi. I think he probably killed Christina. I'm so scared. I don't know what to do. I can't go to the police. I don't have any actual evidence. What do I do?

You do have enough. That's what Cindy's cousin thought. Yeah. And so Cindy's cousin was like, fuck that. I'm calling the police. Yeah. And so Jackie Hamel, which is Cindy's cousin, was like, no, we cannot fuck around with this. You are next.

You are next. around with this. You are next. Yeah. You are next. So she called the Seneca County Sheriff's office and asked to speak to the detectives who had investigated Levi's death. And she was put in contact with some investigators there, but they were like, who, what, what case are you wanting to look into? And she was like, I want to look into Levi Carlson's death, who investigated his death. And they like, she's talking to an investigator and they're like pulling it up and they're like, okay, well, there was no investigation into that death because it was ruled an accident. And she said in response to that, there's a good chance he was murdered by his father. And they were like, oh, what? What makes you say that? And so she

tells them the things that Cindy has told her in the conversations they've been having. She talks about how Carl had made two hundred and fifteen thousand dollars off of his first wife, Christina's death, and that Christina's children like that money was to go to support them. They had never seen any of that money as they were adults. Like it was supposed to be like basically like put into a trust and they were supposed to get the life insurance. It had never happened. They'd never seen any of it.

And then she relayed to these investigators that Carl had also taken this very large life insurance policy out on Levi. And both of those policies had been taken out just weeks before Christina and Levi had died. The story behind the life insurance with Levi was that, OK, Levi and Carl had always had this really tough relationship. Obviously, he moved out when he was 16. But by this point, he was 23 years old. He was like trying to make amends with his dad. He wanted his dad in his life and like basically help him mold into how it be the best dad for his girls and whatever.

And part of that relationship, Carl had brought up that he really needed to make sure that his daughters were taken care of. And he's like, let me set you up with this insurance guy. I'll go there with you to the meeting. We'll get it taken care of just in case anything happens. And so Carl takes Levi to meet with this life insurance guy. And they set up this policy together. And Carl pays the initial installment, like the initial premium in cash that day.

And then before any other premium was due, Levi was dead. I'm really surprised that the insurance companies didn't catch this. Right? Yeah. Absolutely. Because how often does this kind of thing happen that someone gets a policy like two weeks before they die? Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. So this information about these Cindy had moved the fuck out. She'd taken that private investigator's advice and she'd gotten the fuck out of there. And she was estranged from Carl at this point. Well, yeah. Yeah. And she agreed to cooperate in an investigation on Carl Carlson. So she came in several times over the next few months and had multiple sit downs with the police giving them any information that she could have or that she might have, you know, stuff that she might not even know is pertinent. Yeah. And this picture of Carl Carlson comes

forward that he's this super controlling guy. He's emotionally abusive. He's a narcissist. Like the stuff that she has dealt with in this marriage is just terrible. And she goes into his relationship with Levi. All of how they butted heads forever. And then finally, you know, they were trying to kind of mend that relationship, which had led to him taking out this life insurance policy and Carl footing the bill for it as a goodwill gesture. Yeah.

Yeah. Cindy said she didn't know anything about the policy until after Levi died. And that Carl, once he got that payout, he'd most of the money on a get rich quick scheme. What was the scheme? I don't know. Damn it. I wish I did. Yeah.

So at some point, while all of this is going on, Cindy's having these meetings with the police, doing these interviews with them, giving them whatever information she knows. At some point, Carl calls Cindy and is like, I want you back, please. We can fix this. Come home. And Cindy sees this as an opportunity to help the investigation. Get him talking. You know, she questions him about Levi's death. And according to Cindy, Carl admits to her that he killed Levi. Did she record it? No.

So in a conversation, Carl says that he jacked the truck up. He knew those jacks were super wobbly. He let Levi get under the truck. And then he kicked the jack out. And then left to go to the funeral with Cindy. Knowing that when they came back, Cindy could find Levi dead. Oh. And that it would just look like an accident. and that it would just look like an accident.

So Cindy goes to the police, and she's like, he fucking admitted it. He told me everything. This is what he said. And they're like, okay, all right, all right. Would you be willing to wear a wire? And she's like, yes, I'll do it. And so they get her to wear a wire. They have her invite Carl to lunch out at this restaurant. And they sit there and she tries to get him talking.

She's asking him questions about it. And this time his story is different. He seems suspicious of her first. Well, sure. He's like, I feel like this is a booby trap. That's what he says which that's stupid but and she goes what do you mean and he's like a booby trap is and she's he says i i feel like i'm being set up yeah and she's like no she's like no if if you if you really want us to work on this relationship like i need to

know everything so you've got it you've just got to talk to me and talk really loudly and clearly right just right kind of into my shirt a little bit uh-huh and so this time he says that he jacked the truck up. Levi was under it. And without thinking it, he opened the door to the truck to get something out of it. And the truck fell off the jacks at that time. And instead of reacting in the moment and trying to save Levi, he decided to capitalize on an opportunity. Yep.

And so he just went to the funeral and allowed Cindy to find Levi when they came back. So what'd she say to that? She said, that's not what you told me before. Right. And he said, well, that's what happened. And so she, you know, finishes this conversation, whatever. She gets the fuck out of there. And the police go over what the recording says.

And she's like, this isn't what he told me the first time. And they're like, honestly, like, we don't believe it either. But it doesn't matter. Yeah, because he admitted. Uh-huh. For legal purposes under New York state law, what he did is called depraved indifference, which is murder in the second degree. Yeah. And so they're like, we've got enough.

Yeah. And so Carl Carlson was arrested and charged with second degree murder and insurance fraud. And charged with second degree murder and insurance fraud. So initially he pled not guilty and actually a trial started. And then somewhere in the course of this trial, he withdrew his not guilty plea and took a plea deal. Oh, wow. For second degree murder. And in exchange for the plea deal, they dropped the insurance fraud charge. And he was sentenced to 15 years to life in prison.

Wow. Mm-hmm. So now they have him for murder in New York. New York. And so Christina's family goes to the California authorities and are like, look, look what he did. Yeah. Please, please, please look back into Christina's death. At some point, Carl's daughters came and visited him while he was in jail, either awaiting sentencing or right after he'd been sentenced. And they're like, I mean, now we know. Now we know you killed our mom.

Yeah. And they said he smiled at them like the Cheshire Cat and said, I've gotten away with it for 20 years. They're not going to get me now. Really? Yeah. To his daughters. So he's pled guilty to Levi's death. The family's now like, please, Calaveras County, please look back into this. This was not an accident.

You know it wasn't an accident. Even at the time, you knew it wasn't an accident. And so the current investigators go to look back at that original investigation. Everything's been destroyed because it was determined to be an accidental death. Right. Right. But by some stroke of luck, some investigator who had been involved in that original investigation had never forgotten about that case, had really thought something was up. And so when all those files were going to be destroyed, he made copies of them. He put them in a box and he stored it in his basement.

No way. Yes. And so they bring out he brings out the box and the current investigators are able to go through the entire initial investigation. Wow. Yeah. Okay. So when they're looking back through these records from the initial investigation, they determined that at that time, the fire investigators had thought there was no way Carl's story made sense. No way that the kerosene had that had caught on fire outside of the bathroom was days or weeks old, as he had told them. They said the way it had puddled on the floor showed proof that it had been poured just moments before the fire was lit. It was too pooled to be something

that had like soaked in over an extended amount of time. And so in December of 2012, the Calaveras County District Attorney's Office reopened the official investigation into Christina's death. And they spent a couple years building a case. And then in 2014, they charged Carl Carlson with first degree murder of his wife, Christina. And at this point, he was already serving his time in New York prison for Levi's death.

And so they extradited him to California to stand trial. Hell yeah. This actually took years for this to go to trial. Even like obviously years have already passed. His trial didn't start until January of 2020. Holy shit. Yes. It just kept getting delayed and delayed and delayed.

And so finally in January of 2020. Well, hurry up and get it done before COVID. Right, exactly. So in January of 2020, Carl Carlson finally went on trial for the murder of Christina Carlson. Christina Carlson. They had a lot of help from New York state authorities who had pieced together kind of this history of life insurance payouts. And during her opening statement, District Attorney Barbara Yook described Christina as this devoted mother of her three children. devoted mother of her three children. And she said that her death was intentionally planned by Carl Carlson to pay out the life insurance he had taken out on her just weeks before her death. Yeah. She said that on the day of Christina's death, everything seemed totally normal to her.

She had planned to go shopping that day after she was done taking her bath, and she never got a chance to. She laid out in court that these were not the only two instances where Carl had received insurance payouts. There was a car fire in 1986 where he'd collected a $10,000 life, or I'm sorry, a $10,000 insurance payout, not life insurance on the car. It's just car insurance. Cars are people too, Brandi. That's right.

And then in 2002, he'd received a $115,000 payout from a barn fire where two of his horses died so the structure was insured the horses were insured yeah yeah between those payouts and christina's payout and levi's payout carl carlson had collected over a million dollars in insurance payouts over 22 years. And what does the average person collect? Yeah. Yeah. They also learned about at this time, the prosecution told the court about those policies that Carl had taken out on Levi's daughters.

And then, yeah, and then there was testimony given in court by Cindy Best who said she had cashed out those policies to ensure that it wasn't hanging over the heads of her granddaughters as this potential motivating factor to kill them. Good grief. Yeah. She said, I was very concerned that an accident was going to happen to one of them. I was scared to death. I imagine so. Yeah. Carl's daughters testified against him.

They testified for the prosecution. And they talked about that moment. They talked about a couple different moments in their lives. One where they had confronted Carl as teenagers about this was before Levi's death. The three kids together had confronted Carl about their mother's death and said, did you have something to do with it? Right. Told them no. And then they testified about the moment after Levi's death and after he'd been after he'd pled guilty to Levi's murder when they said, did you kill our mother?

After he'd pled guilty to Levi's murder when they said, did you kill our mother? And he did that Cheshire Cat smile and said, I've gotten away with it this long. They're not going to get me now. The trial lasted for 13 days. I mean, the defense's case was basically it was an accident. It was ruled an accident originally and it's still an accident. You got it right the first time. The jury deliberated for about eight hours and Carl was found guilty of Christina's murder. The jury returned their verdict on February 3rd, 2020, which would have been Levi's 35th birthday.

Wow. Mm-hmm. Carl Carlson was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. So he will actually have to complete his sentence in New York first and then he will be returned to California to then. Yeah. Live out the rest of his days. Unless it's too expensive. Right. In which case he'll be let go. That's right. And that's the story of a fire. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Christina's mother says like Levi's death obviously never should have happened.

Yes. He should have been stopped after he murdered Christina. Yeah, there's a reason why you have to investigate this shit. Yeah. And thank God Cindy hired that private investigator. No kidding. No kidding. Oof.

Yeah. Makes you wonder what else he got away with absolutely it does who that was that was too much yeah i told you it was not it wasn't a wasn't fun when it was bad yeah it was pretty bad it's pretty bad should we take some questions from our Discord? I believe we shall. How do you get in the Discord? I've been trying and trying. You sign up for our Patreon at the $5 level or higher. Oh, I haven't paid $5. Is that why I can't get in?

You gotta pay the toll. Because a toll is a toll and a roll is a roll. And if you don't pay no tolls, then we don't eat no rolls. Made that up myself. I don't care what anybody says. I find us hilarious. Well, that's good because some people say we're really not. Oh, I love this.

Okay. Festive Lazy Lesbian says, predict the future. How was your Christmas? Oh, God. This makes me nervous because you know what it makes me think of? When we predicted that 2020 was going to be our best year yet. Yep. And then COVID happened.

So many bad things happened. Okay. My prediction, though, is that our Christmas is going to be wonderful because London is at the perfect age. Like, she's so excited about everything. I can't wait to watch her open presents. It's just going to be so exciting. I am making no predictions because I'm terrified of making predictions. Okay, wonderful.

Okay, I just asked a question from Festive Lazy Lesbian, but I've got another. Brandy, have you ever played Wits and Wagers? It's a trivia betting game, and my family and I are now obsessed with it. You bet your ass I have. Wow. I wasn't expecting a... Love that game. Okay.

What's so great about it? Well, you bet on if you're going to know the answers or not. It's wonderful. I mean, I could just bet that I don't know them, and then, you know, if I do know them, I just lie. I can't explain the. And then, you know, if I do know him, I just lie. You don't win anything by any. I can't explain the game to you, Kristen. You can't? No.

I bet you you could. I could, but I don't want to. Hmm. Braless Brandy wants to know, how do you think the two of you have grown or changed since starting the podcast? Oh, my gosh a ton yeah so much we were literally just talking in a couple months we will have been doing this for five years that's wild i know i mean my entire life has changed since yes yeah i mean Yes. Yeah. I mean, you've got a big old switcheroo. Yes. My God.

Yeah. How wild is that? All of our listeners have been along for that ride with us. Yeah. It really is. I mean, when you think about when we started this, we had no expectations. Yeah. And for a long time, nothing happened with expectations. Yeah. And for a long time, nothing happened with it.

Yeah. I mean, to me, I think the craziest thing has been just, it's that thing we talk about sometimes about, like, no one asked for this podcast. No one, literally no one asked for this podcast. No one. Literally no one asked for this. And I think that's kind of what I love about these mediums where there aren't gatekeepers is who would have guessed that we would have this now. Yep. It's incredible. Like. Yeah. We get to do what we love.

Yes. And we I mean, we get to we have an excuse to hang out with each other every week. That's the best fucking part of it. Yes. Having an excuse. No, I think as adults. Yeah. You don't make time.

Yeah. To get together with your friends. Yeah. Yeah. Every week we are forced to hang out together, Kristen. And it's terrible. No, it's really been such a, I don't want to sound cheesy, but it's been such a life blessing. It has.

It absolutely has. It's all because of you. Go ahead and tell me your top three favorite things about me. I mean, this was your idea. Damn right. Damn right. I'm so glad you said yes. What an amazing journey we've been on.

No kidding. No kidding. I still can't believe that we get to do this. I know. I know. Yeah. It's shocking. That people listen to our bullshit. Yeah.

It's amazing. Thank you all for listening. Thank you for listening and thank you for asking me to do this with you, Kristen. Thank you for saying yes. Yeah. I think about like – I've thought a lot about how lucky we are as a pair. Like because this has been – it's been so much fun but it's also a lot of work. It's a ton of work. And so – but neither one of us have taken our foot off the gas.

No. I mean that's really nuts, don't you think? It absolutely is. Yeah. It's because we actually like each other. It is. It really is. It is.

That's why, for sure. It is. I mean, not just that. We love each other. We love getting to be together. So it's a huge part of it. I've been trying to bang you for years. Stop it!

This podcast. I love you as a friend kristin damn it give it time maybe when we've been doing this for 10 years maybe then you'll come around jacqueline rabbit okay This person is with me. Says, don't cause a global pandemic or anything, but what are you excited about for 2023? I don't want to talk about it. I don't want to talk about it. I don't want to talk about it. No.

So I've been thinking a lot about. So we go on these breaks. Yeah. So we have January off. Yeah. We are still putting out bonus episodes on Patreon, you know, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, we'll do our Zoom hangout, all that stuff. We do our winter break and we do our summer break.

And I've been trying to think of what I want to do during that time. Yeah. And I'm thinking of a lot of book-related stuff. Yeah. I've decided I want to go back and read my first book. Yeah. And figure out if I want to self publish it. You know what I think.

What do you think? I think you should fucking do it. People will love it. I have some fears about it. I'm like maybe I could write something better. Like I'm working on another book now and I do think it's better than my first book. But I'm not super far. I don't know.

I think part of it is, like, honestly being inspired by the podcast and, like, okay, well, no one said they wanted the podcast. We did this ourselves. Yeah, so maybe self-publish the book in 2023. I don't know. What if I say that and then you know. I don't know. Global pandemic. Book pandemic. What are the odds of that happening again?

No stop it. No the only thing I will say that I am looking forward to in 2023 so far is Stephen and I are going on our honeymoon. Oh, yes. I'm so excited. Yeah. Yeah.

We are going to Key West for a week in January. To lose your virginity. Stop it. Oh, man. The people do not forget. Richard in Jingle Balls also says, any new plagues you want to wish into existence for 2023? Richard in Jingle Balls also says, any new plagues you want to wish into existence for 2023? We really had high hopes for 2020, folks.

And listening back to that episode, that's terrible. It's so terrible. You know, part of it was the year 2020, it just sounded good. It did. Right? Boy, were we wrong hmm doppenditz wants to know who knows kristin better brandy or norm okay i'm gonna say me but it's only because of how my brain works because i'm so i just remember everything yes yeah okay yeah and no fault to how well Norm knows you at all. Yes. Yes. But you you really are like an old school library cataloging. OK. That's literally how I picture my brain.

Mm hmm. Like there's fucking file cabinets up there and stuff just filed away. And I'll get there eventually. Like it comes like when you talk like, you don't know, like, what else do you know about Liberace? I'm like, I don't know. But then it just, like, comes out later. You know how I have pictured my brain? How? A very big room with a lot of empty space. And, like, a really small guy in front of, like, a large but not very powerful computer. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. Uh-huh. Okay. And that tracks, doesn't it? Uh-huh. Okay. Net tracks, doesn't it? Ooh. Okay. Classy Penis Cake wants to know, what's your favorite episode from this year? I...

Okay, so... I feel like I'd have to have a big old list of them. Exactly. I would say that the episode that I'm maybe most proud of is the Jodi Arias episode that I did. Yeah, that was a beast. It was so much work. Uh-huh. But I'm really proud of that episode.

Yeah, you should be. It was great. Thank you. What was a case you did for the bonus episode? Not this one you did Monday, but the last one. What was that? Well, I didn't do that. Norm was on the episode before that.

So the one before that. What did I do? Fuck. Hold on. Okay. Wait for it. Wait for it. Wait for it.

Wait for it. In other news, I've got two tickets to Hamilton. Everyone, she's very excited. Oh, you're thinking of Sam Shepard, aren't you? Yes. Yes.

So you covered... I got big old nuts and did the Sam Shepard case. You covered the Sam Shepard case for one of the bonus episodes. And I think the thing I loved about that was Sam Shepard is a name I've heard a bunch before, but I'd never really looked into it at all. You did such a good job with that one. I just loved it. Thank you. You're welcome.

Okay. I loved your Mark Wahlberg case because it blew my mind. Because I obviously thought I knew a lot about Mark Wahlberg. You knew literally everything except for the hate crimes he committed. Ooh, Fierce Falalalala Llama asks, Brandy, what's your favorite style or color that you'd never get yourself i love the hair questions oh my gosh do you get sick of hair questions no not at all all right okay my favorite that i i would love to do but would never do on myself like i love a very dramatic okay almost no almost a pixie so real short on the sides of the back. Even shaved. Yeah. But then a very dramatic heavy bang.

Yeah. I fucking love that look. Not Karen-y. Very edgy, PC, textured. We know what you mean. But this is not the face for that cut. What if you get that weird surgery where you... Yeah, I'll get a little tuck and then I could get that cut.

It's all for the haircut. No, I mean, honestly, I love my hair right now. It looks great. Well, not right now, it doesn't. It's like, I have it in a bun on top of my head. Hey, it's a two-episode week. That's right. That's exactly right.

But no, my hair is my favorite hair that I've ever had in my life right now. Okay, everyone, I've told Brandy, like I literally told you this today, that you have gotten better looking over the past couple years. I think just happiness suits you. I think you're absolutely right. Thank you.

It has made your hair grow. My hair is the best hair I've ever had. It's healthy. It's beautiful. Like, it's interesting. So I, Casey said something similar to me recently because I was complaining about how my face looks fat. And she was like, she's like, OK, no, legitimately, you look the best you've looked in your whole life. Yeah.

You look so good. I was like, thank you. You really do. I mean, thank you. Well, and fuck you because you're in your mid 30s. Yeah. But it was funny because I've been thinking like, okay, in this new year, what new things do we want to do with the podcast? And I've been thinking it really would be fun to get video cameras in here in the studio and like have people be able to watch us.

But then I was like, oh, my God. But on those two episodes. I know. People have seen me looking like this. I have a hoodie on and my hair is literally piled on top of my head. I always look great. So I can't. You do.

You look wonderful. You do. You look beautiful. No. It's when I'm on camera that I'm like, oh, my God. I have to burn that sweater. Oh, my God. You know?

It's like you see all these things and you're like, oh, shit. Oh, no. Oh, okay. Here is a holiday-themed question. Okay. Classy penis cake. Oh, I already asked a classy penis cake question. I don't care.

Fuck the whatever. I'm asking whatever questions I want. Okay. Wow. Fuck, marry, kill. Okay. Fruitcake, eggnog, candy canes. I would.

I'd fuck candy canes. I'd marry eggnog and I'd kill fruitcake. Exact same answer. Yeah. Exact same answer. All. Exact same answer. All right, great. Ooh, 2bobs1stone asks, Brandy, I have to have natural hair color for work,

but I used henna on my hair. Is there anything that can be done? Oh, you look so sad for this person. I know, because I hate to tell you 2bobs1stone, but on a scale from 1 to 10, my friend, you're fucked. Wow. Great, great. tell you two bobs one stone but on a scale from one to ten my friend you're fucked great great henna is not easily or not even it just it cannot be removed it can't be removed basically you can go darker to cover it but it will still like that's your only hope my friend it's funny because i've always thought of henna as like the natural yeah that's what people think yeah but it is it infiltrates

that shaft it's never coming out why does your work care what your hair color i agree oh yes it's me calm down wants to, did both of you legally change your names? I got married last year and only changed my name on social media since I'm afraid it's going to be a big pain in the ass. So I plan to legally change my name, but I have not yet because I already purchased the tickets for our honeymoon in my old last name. So can't do it until after I get back. And I literally only use the last name Caruso on the podcast. On the podcast, yeah. And when you become a published author.

That's right. Did I say offer? Maybe I'll become an offer. Who knows? Yeah, who knows? Maybe I'll start offering up. Make a bid, folks. We are going to have a hard limit of $5.

Can't offer less than that. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, we've said this on the podcast before. I go by Kristen Caruso for professional purposes because it sounds prettier. Sounds beautiful. Yeah. Slightly more beautiful than Kristen Pitts. Weird.

Weird. Ooh. Hmm. Sponsored byco wants to know brandy and kristen do you have any unpopular christmas opinions something that most people like but you can't stand hmm i think the elf on the shelf is annoying as fuck and it will never be introduced into my household yeah i can't believe people do that thing. I can't either. I think it's sweet.

Yeah. But some of the things you see people doing, like, you voluntarily made a mess of your home. Yeah. So Jackson has one at his other household. Yeah, and the elf just doesn't know about your house. I am dreading the fucking day he mentions it to London and I have to come up with some reason that there's no elf at our house

because there will not be an elf at our house. Okay, let's think of the line now so you're prepared. Right. You got something? You got something? You got anything? Give me something. Gosh.

No. Here's my problem. I'm thinking of things. Yeah. And they're terrible to say to children. Exactly. Like, sorry, the elves are dead. Yeah.

You know. Yep. Okay. Here's what we could say because the two households are in different states. So I think I have to go with something state-related. Elves are illegal in Kansas, so Santa doesn't send them here. Hey, listen, we don't sell alcohol before noon on Sundays, so it could be true. Yeah, it could absolutely be true.

You never know what kind of terrible, weird laws are going to pass in these states. Yeah, all of a sudden London's like advocating to move to Missouri, the great state of Missouri. Ooh. Amber, the Bi-Disney adult, wants to know what is the worst New Year's resolution

you ever made? Oh, shit. Oh, Lord. For like a thousand years, I've had like weight loss related. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Never again. Good.

Yeah. What made you stop with that bullshit? I think I've just really like spent the last couple years examining toxic diet culture and how ingrained it's been in me my entire life. And I'm never going to hate myself into loving myself. But have you tried? I sure fucking have. Time to abandon that ship. And, yeah, let's just focus let's focus on health and happiness.

And that does not have to have anything to do with my weight. Yeah. Yeah, I've been working on this the past couple years too. Yeah. Fuck, it's hard. It's really fucking hard. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. It's funny. So we talked today about, like, I want us to get new pictures for the podcast because the ones we took I now realize are like five years old. Yeah. And I was telling you a norm like I ever since. So I'm watching a lot of RuPaul's Drag Race and I just watched this old season of All Stars where this drag queen introduced herself in the funniest way. She goes, hi, I'm Miz Cracker and I'm 35 pounds heavier than I was on season three. That's exactly how I feel. I'm like, when people see me in person, I'm like, hello, I look totally different, blah, blah, blah.

I promise you no one is thinking that. Well, but here's the thing. Here's the thing. If they are, that's okay. Well, sure, yeah. You know, it's like I need to stop seeing it as like. Yeah. But also, I think we think that in our heads way more.

Like, I've never looked at someone and been like, oh, you're heavier than the last time I saw you. Like, so I don't think people are doing that to us either. And if they are, I don't want to associate with that person anyway. What if they drive a cool car, though? Well, that might be cool. Yeah, think about that. What if they drive a Subaru? Then you probably want to be their friend.

What? friend what the worst woman on earth wants to know would you ever consider joining a podcast network um no one's asked but honestly like we're doing great on our own so yeah i don't i don't i don't know. It's funny because like when I think about goals and stuff with the podcast. That's never one of my goals. It's never been. Yeah. I think this is going to sound so rude. But when I think about changes that are exciting to me it's never bringing in a new boss for myself

absolutely not we are the only fucking bosses around here and I like it that way and it's wonderful now in terms of changes it's like would we hire people to help with some stuff yeah maybe sure but no I don't need a new boss In terms of changes, it's like, would we hire people to help with some stuff? Yeah, maybe. Sure.

Sure. But no, I don't need a new boss. No, certainly not. I've got very little respect for authority. I will say I spent years thinking that I had to work for companies like I thought it was really scary to be your own boss. And now I am my own boss in my salon and with the podcast. And it's the best fucking thing ever. Oh, shit.

Talk more about that, because I feel like a lot of people are scared of this kind of thing. Yeah, I always thought the idea of having my own business, like, yeah, being my own boss, seemed very scary because you have no one to fall back on should something go wrong yeah but and also i think there was a fear about like am i self-motivated enough to which is ridiculous but but yes that was one of my fears yeah myself motivated enough to do the job without the risk without the fear of someone firing me from it. But that is the, okay, that's one of the things about me. It's the most ridiculous thing in my life looking back now. I have, anytime I have worked for a company, had a boss, I always had this fear that I was always like two days away from getting fired. When like looking back now, I'm like a dream employee for a company like i always come to

fucking work i always do my stuff you know that grazing is stealing exactly so yeah for a lot of a lot of years i carried around a fear of because i would have people ask me that when i worked for corporate salons be like hey have you ever thought about you know going out and doing your own thing my answer was always like no that's terrifying uh-huh but i mean it's wonderful yeah yeah it's funny like oh gosh i had i had fears about it too. Yeah. Um, but when Norman started doing YouTube on his own, I was like, holy shit,

sign me up. The dream. Yes. Yes. And I remember being scared because, you know, there are just certain, certain things I'm not good at anything with a number on it.

Nope. Pass. Um, and I think the thing and like, well, how do we get insurance? And I think the big thing, and like, well, how do we get insurance and all that stuff? And I think the big thing, and it was, honestly, my favorite murder was a big inspiration for this part.

Because I remember when we were thinking about doing the podcast and stuff, they would always say on their podcast, bigger dummies than you. Yeah. Have done this. Yes. And that, honestly. Absolutely. Seriously done this. Yes. And that honestly. Absolutely. Seriously. Think about some of the self-employed people.

Yes. They're fucking idiots. You think you can't do that. Yes. I promise you you can do it. Yes. I promise you you can do it. And you can hire people to help with the stuff you don't understand. Yes.

Yes. And honestly, some of the stuff you don't understand is really not as complicated as you're making it in your head. Yeah. I hope you're feeling motivated. That's right. You stupid piece of shit. Hey, do you want to end on you stupid piece of shit? I think I do.

Yeah. You know, because that one time we were really optimistic about the new year. No. Not this year, you stupid piece of shit? I think I do. You know, because like that one time we were really optimistic about the new year. No. Not this year, you stupid piece of shit. And instead, we will do our Supreme Court inductions. Yeah, that's for people at the $7 level or higher on our Patreon. And this week we are reading your names and your first celebrity crushes.

That's right. Prepare to get horny. That's just what happens. Lauren Baker. Jonathan Taylor Thomas. Callie. Prince Eric from The Little Mermaid. Oh, he was fucking hot. Renee Cake.

Justin Timberlake. Darcy. Jeff Corwin, animal expert. I. Justin Timberlake. Darcy. Jeff Corwin. Animal expert. I don't know who that is. I don't know who that is. Yeah. We'll allow it. Kate's Lauren.

Jordan Knight from New Kids on the Block. Holly Sly. JTT. Andrea Lee Young. Johnny Depp. Sad glitter whore. Andrew Garfield. Not the president. Yeah. Why would anyone think that? No one would ever think that. Sad glitter whore. Andrew Garfield. Not the president.

Yeah. Why would anyone think that? No one would ever think that. It's so dumb. Oh my God. I'm up to date on current celebrities. Arrgh. Molly Marler.

Okay. Brandy's not totally weird. Molly did request that it was said in a pirate or leprechaun voice. George of the Jungle era, Brandon Frazier. His name's Brendan Frazier. I'm so sorry. And it's actually Brendan Fraser. It is?

I believe so. You know, the irony is my mom had a crush on him for forever. You'd think I would know my mother's crush's name. I think I would know my mother's crush's name. Paige Hopkins Korvishi. Shia LaBeouf. The crush recently ended due to lawsuits, but I still love the way he dresses. I heard that Kanye West was obsessed with the way that guy dresses.

Really? Yeah. Ooh. See, I'm up to date on all this celebrity stuff. All right. Lindsay O. Devin Sawa. Lacey Ponder.

Jacob Dillon. Ooh, that's Bob Dylan's son. Ooh. Candy M. Sean Conroy. Bridget de la Carrera. The Fox Robin Hood from the Disney movie. That's right.

That was one hot Fox. Eva Louise Kay. Shigo from the Disney movie. That's right. That was one hot fox. Eva Louise Kay. Chico from Kim Possible. I don't know. I don't know. Yes. Andy Pittman. Oh, my God.

I just totally read that wrong. Okay. Andy said, I'm aromantic, so I've never had a crush. I'll say my favorite cookie is a soft peanut butter cookie with the fork crisscrossed. You read it as aromatic, didn't you? Yes. So did I. I read it as I'm aromatic so I've never had a crush. I'm like, what does that have to do with anything?

I have a nice fragrance going so therefore I don't have a crush on anyone. Welcome to the Supreme Court! I was about to keep on going and read the episode 241 inductees. I wonder where the hell you are. I'm so sorry!

Someone needs a break. I guess I'll take one. Alright, alright. If you insist. Thank you, everyone, for all of your support. We appreciate it so much. If you're looking for other ways to support us, please find us on social media. We're on Twitter,

Instagram, Facebook. I did this in a completely different order than I usually do. Patreon. Please remember to subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen. And then head on over to Apple Podcasts. Leave us a five-star rating and review. And then be sure to join us in February!

When we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned. And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts.

I got my info from the BBC, the New York Times, Wikipedia, newspapers.com, and excerpts from the book Liberace, An American Boy by Darden Asbury Pyron. I got my info from an episode of Accident, Suicide, or Murder, an episode of 2020,

the Calaveras Enterprise, Syracuse.com, the Union Democrat, and Heavy.com. For a full list of our sources, visit LGTCpodcast.com. Any errors are, of course, ours, but please don't take our word for it. Go. Read.

There's stuff. Happy holidays. Happy holidays.