Let's Go To Court! - 243: Fires

Episode Date: February 22, 2023

Brandi starts us off with a story that’s as bizarre as it is upsetting.  Ashlea Ann Harris was, most likely, exhausted. She was an assistant manager at American Eagle, and she’d spent hours preparing the store for Black Friday. When she finally arrived home, it was the wee hours of the morning. She chatted for a while with a friend who’d come over to check on her dog, and then, presumably, fell asleep. But just a few hours later, one of her neighbors called 911. He told the dispatcher that he suspected Ashlea’s apartment was on fire.  Then Kristin talks about the heartbreaking and infuriating conviction of Michael Politte. When Michael was just 14 years old, he woke up one morning to discover that his mother was dead. She’d been bludgeoned to death. Her body had been set on fire. When police arrived on the scene, they were horrified by Michael’s behavior. He didn’t seem sad enough. He wasn’t emotional enough. So, Michael quickly became the prime suspect. Early one morning in the winter of 2014, firefighters arrived at the River Ranch Apartments in Fort Worth, Texas. Neighbors pointed them toward the source of the fire – Ashlea Ann Harris’ apartment. They began extinguishing the blaze And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: “The Case Against Michael Politte” episode of 48 Hours “Michael Politte has served 22 years for murder. Experts say he’s innocent.” by Sarah Fenske for St. Louis Public Radio The “Gates of Hell” episode of Unlocking the Truth “‘This kid never had a chance’ – Team of lawyers work to prove innocence of 14-year-old convicted in mother’s murder,” by Angie Ricono and Cyndi Fahrlander for WIBW “2 more jurors say Mo. prisoner Politte deserves new trial,” by Luke Nozicka for The Kansas city Star “Man gets life in murder of his mother,” by Leroy Sigman for The Daily Journal “Politte found guilty of murder, “by Doug Smith The Daily Journal “Testimony continues in murder case,” by Doug Smith The Daily Journal In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “Ashlea Harris” chillingcrimes.com “Couple Murders Store Manager Who Got Them Fired As Part Revenge, Part Black Friday Heist” by Benjamin H. Smith, oxygen.com “The Murder of Ashlea Harris” by Kiley, It’s Crime O’Clock Somewhere “Police: Couple beat, strangled, burned woman” by Staff Writer, Amarillo Globe News “Police: Texas woman strangled by fmr. co-workers” CBS News “Mallory v. State” casetext.com YOU’RE STILL READING? My, my, my, you skeezy scunch! You must be hungry for more! We’d offer you some sausage brunch, but that gets messy. So how about you head over to our Patreon instead? (patreon.com/lgtcpodcast). At the $5 level, you’ll get 40+ full length bonus episodes, plus access to our 90’s style chat room!  

One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts! I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Pond. Let's go to court! On this episode, I'll be talking about a fire. And I'll be talking about a fire!

I had not read our intro form here since Kristen had filled hers out, and I just discovered discovered but a moment ago that we were both going to be talking about fires which makes this our third episode in a row with an accidental theme yeah yeah because our bonus episode which we just recorded yeah plug oh wow she's so good at this she's such a business cat yeah we recorded a bonus episode it was excellent yeah and we talked about the theme we had an accidental theme on that one too. She doesn't even remember what we talked about. No, this would be our fourth episode in a row because we had fugitives.

We had moms. We had whatever we talked about on the bonus episode. Which was nearly a day and a half ago. And I can't remember what it was. Too many lawyers. Oh, yeah. Uh-huh. Yep. Yep many lawyers. Oh, yeah. Uh-huh. Yep.

Yep. And then today, fires. Well, we're in sync, folks. Our cycles have synced up. Mm-hmm. That's not true. Working havoc on our plumbing. Brandi, good to see you yet again, my friend.

It's been so long. It's been so long. It has been so long. We literally finished recording the bonus episode at like 1130 Monday nights. It's true. It's true. And to listen to that episode, all you got to do is join our Patreon at the $5 level or higher. That's any level on Patreon gets you that meaty bonus episode. It is a meaty one. Yeah.

And it's good. We talked and talked and talked. We talked about all kinds of stuff and things. I made fun of you a lot in that episode. You did. And I really had a good time. I'm glad one of us did. Yeah, you know, I can't... No, I'm kind of

excited to listen back to that episode because I really enjoyed mocking you and talking about how mean you are. Which, man, if you want to see Brandy get really agitated, tell her she's mean. Oh, no. Tell her she loves Dr. Phil, which she does. Oh, Lord, I do not. She does love Dr. Phil. He's problematic, but so is Brandy. Oh, okay. so is brandy okay anyway you know a match made in heaven the other things that you could get on our patreon are you could get inducted into the supreme

court that's true you can do that at the seven dollar level and you can get a card with our autographs and a sticker that's a good time time. Also available at the $7 level. If you're feeling spendy at the $10 level, that's the Bob Moss level. You can get ad-free episodes and you can get them a day early. Also, I don't know if we still have any more juvenile Bigfoot hoodies left because I can't tell the future. Right. I also can't tell the future. Right. I also can't predict the future. But, you know, go to the website.

Yeah, lgtcpodcast.com to see if they're there. You know what else they get at that level? A discount. Oh, well, OK, that's true. That's a 10% discount. The other thing, though, do you know the other thing? They get our... That poem you wrote about Dr. Phil.

That's rude. That doesn't exist. Neither does the poster that Kristen mentioned in the bonus episode. You know, someone is going to believe this, and then there's just going to be all this... Yeah, I hope. Kristen. Brandi, I hope. Should we rehash?

No. Okay, okay, fine. Fine, go to that episode. And, you know, if you walk away from that episode thinking, oh, my gosh, Kristen is just such a sweet person and Brandi's so mean to her. No one ever sticks up for Kristen. Maybe I should everywhere. You know, if that's how you feel, go ahead. Okay.

Oh boy. Oh goodness gracious. You know what I think we ought to do right now? What's that? An ad. Do-do-do-do-do. Here's an ad. It's coming to you. And now Brandy's going to tell us a story about a fire.

Why does your face look like that? Well, I'm sure it's going to be really sad. Oh, yeah. I love how you're like, why are you? What? What's the problem? Yeah. Oh, for sure.

It's sad. Yeah. Great. Yeah. Great. Yeah. OK. Shout out to ChillingCrimes.com. It's been a while. It has been a while. And this comes almost entirely from their entry on this case. It was meaty and thorough and had excellent court coverage.

So who was the author? They don't give an author. It's just written by a ghost. Yep. Okay. That doesn't seem right, but all right. Okay. Hold on. I don't like where my page is positioned. I need to move it. Biscoach. Thank you. Okay. Wow. Okay. Very good. Kind of diva behavior. Absolutely. Also, where are my brown M&Ms? I like the brown ones because they have less artificial coloring. No. No one says that ever. No, that's from a movie. Oh.

Well, naturally. In The Wedding Planner starring Jennifer Lopez. Don't you guys think it's kind of fucked up that like she said that to me knowing that I don't watch a lot of movies so she like knew it would go right over my head. She's kind of fucked up, huh? Yeah. No. That's what they kind of fucked up huh yeah no that's what anyway in the wedding just planting the seed starring jennifer lopez and matthew mcconaughey he

only eats the brown m&ms because he figures they have less artificial coloring because chocolate's already brown but the candy coating is not made of chocolate so that makes no fucking sense also Why not just eat regular chocolate? No, he likes M&M's. Kristen, his name is Steve. Oh, my God. I'm sorry. I had no idea his name was Steve. Does that change everything? It really does. You know, I let Steve's get away with whatever.

That's right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Okay. I'm glad we've... Speaking of Steve's, away with whatever. That's right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Okay. I'm glad we've – speaking of Steve's, this has nothing to do with Steve's. Speaking of getting away with whatever. Okay. So David and I were watching the parade this morning.

By the way, Chiefs won the fucking Super Bowl. And there's so many police, like, along the, like, parade route and everything. And they're all named steve no david was like you know it's probably like the perfect day to try and like get away with a crime in kansas city because all of the police are downtown absolutely parade and yet here we are being total chumps recording a podcast when we could be murdering our enemies. That's right. Okay. Anyway. Wait, that's... How did you get there from... You said I let Steve's get away

with everything. Okay, okay. Alright, I'm with you now. Very good. I thought you were gonna tell us a story about your stepdad getting away with something. No, his name is Steve. What has he gotten away with? I don't know. Oh, damn. We'll have to have him on the pod. He's gotten away with my mom's heart.

Aww. And she fell in love with him at a parade. Makes sense. Does. Makes total sense. No, they fell in love over English muffins. What? They met at a call center that sold english muffins

yeah you used to have to order shit like out of a catalog and so yeah they were like at the fulfillment center where people would call in and place their orders for wooferman's english muffins wait they only did english muffins? I am not positive about that. I was very young, but I know they had English muffins. I would hope they'd have a variety of things. I think there were jellies, too. Well, yeah, I would fucking hope so. I think they did, like, gift baskets.

Okay. But specifically, they were known for their English muffins. All right. This is making a little more sense. Yeah. English muffins. All right. This is making a little more sense. Initially, I thought you were saying like they literally met over a set of English muffins. And I thought that doesn't seem sexy or romantic in any way. They were both in the grocery store and they reached for the same package of English muffins. That'd be so adorable.

Okay. Anyway, that was like 30 years ago. They've been married forever and they're great. Wow. Way to really just take the spark out of that story. Anyway. Anyhow, I've had enough tangents. Okay, perfect.

It was the morning of November 28th. Did people call in with complaints? 2014. I'm sure they did. This one has too many nooks and crannies. I think it'd be more like there's not enough nooks and crannies. I can't get my jam packed in there. I totally understand.

We had a lot of English muffins. We had English muffin pizzas a lot. I assume they got free English muffins. I don't really know. As I mentioned, I was like five. So. Right. You weren't like, who paid for this? Who paid for this? Okay. I'm sorry. I interrupted as a hilarious joke. And now I take it back. Okay. Thank you. It was the morning of November 28th, 2014, the day after Thanksgiving, when a call came into the Fort Worth, Texas 911 dispatch center. On the line was Stephen Lee. He said that he believed there was a fire in the unit above his

in the River Ranch apartments. He said that his carbon monoxide detector had started going off and then water had started leaking into his apartment from the unit above. He believed it was coming from the building's sprinkler system. The unit above Stevens was occupied by, oh, this guy's named Steve. Wow. Anyway, a lot of Steves happening. While he was making the call, was he eating an English muffin? I don't know. We're going to assume he was.

So we can't rule it out. Yeah. The unit above Steve's was, I don't know that he goes by Steve. He was referred to as Steven in all of the stuff that I read. Yeah, please don't fuck this up. I know it's a lot to ask. The unit above Steven's was occupied by 31-year-old Ashley Harris. Ashley's friend, Jeff Kaiser, K-A-Y-S-E-R.

You think that's Kaiser? Like a Kaiser role? I was assuming, but I'm not positive. There's friend, Jeff Kaiser. K-A-Y-S-E-R. You think that's Kaiser? Like a Kaiser roll? I was assuming, but I'm not positive. There's just bread buns. Very bready episode. Buns all over the place. I've asked Kristen to stop shaking them repeatedly now, but she refuses to stop. You really did shake them earlier.

Not my buns, my boobs. No, downstairs. Oh, that's right. You bent in half. I did. And shook your boobs. No, downstairs. Oh, that's right. You bent in half. I did. And shook your buns. Well, I had to do that to show you and Norm what I would do if I was in a polyamorous relationship.

Spoiler alert, I'd bang everybody. That's right. And I'm sorry, everyone, but I'm not in a polyamorous relationship. So, you know, keep it in your pants. Also, we apologize because this is our second episode in a day and a half. And so we are attention spans are tiny today. If you hate tangents, this is not the one for you. But if you want to hear about how I shake my butt. Do you ever shake your butt?

I feel like you don't shake your butt much. And boy, if I had your butt, I'd be shaking it all over town. I actually shake my butt a lot, but I reserve it for one person. Oh. Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realize you were such a good Christian woman. I'm not confident enough to shake it in front of other people, but my husband enjoys it a lot, so I shake it for him. I bet you say hashtag worth the wait all the time. Anyway, thank you for saying if you had my butt, you would shake it all the time.

I do all kinds of stuff with your butt. For example, you know how I didn't figure out that I had butt pimples until like a year ago? Yeah. Because I just never look at my butt in the mirror. If I had your butt, I'd be looking in the mirror private. I'd notice the first thing something went wrong.

It would not take much time. Anyhow. Good to know. I don't look at my butt that often. You know, I didn't grow up valuing my butt. Well, yeah. Twas the 90s. Exactly. I've only come to appreciate it as of late well and the good thing

is that's going to go away because heroin chic is i know so whatever self-esteem you've built great it's about to flush it down the toilet okay anyway so jeff kaiser k-a-y-s-e-r you think or kaser either way why would you ask me any question okay so he lived in the same apartment complex and he was awoken that November morning by the sound of like fire alarms going off in the complex. There was just like a bunch of commotion. And it didn't take long for him to realize that the source of the fire appeared to be Ashley's apartment. And then he looked in the parking lot and he saw that Ashley's truck was still parked there. And so he ran to Ashley's door.

By this time, there was like a crowd gathering waiting for the fire department to get there. And Jeff made his way like through the crowd up to Ashley's apartment. And either he like fucking kicked down the door and went in or perhaps a maintenance person unlocked the door for him. It's cited different ways in different articles. That's interesting. It is. I like to imagine that he kicked the door down, but I'm guessing the maintenance guy unlocked it for him. It could be both.

Yeah. Like the guy unlocked it and then Jeff was just like, let me fuck it in. I'm saying like, you know, in apartments they usually have the chain lock thing. Oh, yeah. Maybe he didn't have to. Yeah. Maybe it wasn't just for the drunk. The chain was not engaged. Oh, OK. Well maybe he didn't have to. Yeah, maybe it wasn't just for the drama. The chain was not engaged.

Oh, okay. Well, I'll shut up and let you tell it. So Jeff makes entry into Ashley's apartment, and he was met with just like a plume of smoke. As he ran in searching for Ashley, Ashley's dog actually ran out. Jeff made his way through Ashley's apartment searching for his friend, but the smoke was super thick. He made it. This was very brave of him. Oh, my gosh.

Okay. He went in three separate times. Like, the smoke would get too thick. He'd run out, get fresh air. He'd go back in. He did it three times. Wow. And he was about to do it a fourth, but the fire department showed up.

Well, yeah. And were like, get the fuck away from here. Of course, yeah. Yeah. So the fire department. I meant to say fire department. This is very embarrassing. This is so humiliating because I don't know if you know this, but this is a podcast you're on right now.

We're literally the most important thing. Are the words that we say. I know. Being able to speak clearly and, yeah. It's also important how you make me feel. That's right. My sincerest apologies to you, Kristen, and to the listeners. Of which there are 12. So the fire department arrives. They pull Jeff away from the apartment and they go in and are able to extinguish the blaze. Pretty quickly, they determined that like this fire had been set intentionally and that Ashley was inside the apartment at the time. They found Ashley in her bedroom and she was dead, but the fire had not killed her. Her feet and her hands were bound.

She had trauma to her head and neck. There was blood everywhere. It was bad. They were able to positively ID her based on her friends that were at the scene. A couple of other friends had showed up by this time as well. And one friend was like, is it Ashley? Is she in there? And they're like, do you know if she has any tattoos or anything? And this friend was like, she has like a scripture number tattooed on her wrist. And they were able to confirm that the

victim did in fact have that. Yeah. So they called in an arson squad. They called in the homicide squad to investigate this scene. There was like no sign of struggle inside the apartment, no sign of forced entry. And Jeff told the police that when he had gotten there to try the door, it had been locked. So the arson investigators were able to determine that an accelerant had been used.

But it was weird. Rubbing alcohol had been used and rubbing alcohol is not very flammable. It's not typically used as an accelerant. That made them think that like the fire was an afterthought. Yeah. And that they'd fire was an afterthought. Yeah. And that they'd used what had been there. Right. And assumed that it was flammable.

I would assume that rubbing alcohol is flammable. Well, doesn't it say it on there that it's flammable? I have no idea. Does it? Do you have any? Let's take a break. No. And go.

They also very quickly determined, as I already told you, that Ashley's car was still in the parking lot. But the keys for her car were missing. She always hung them like in the same spot. A friend was able to tell them that, like where they would be. And they weren't there. So that made the investigators believe that whoever had done this to Ashley had taken her keys and then used them to lock the door when they left. They went to work trying to retrace like Ashley's steps from the night before, figure out, you know, who who maybe had interacted with her that night.

And so they talked to Ashley's friend, Alexis. So she had actually shown up at the scene as well. Like people were calling, letting everybody know. Like Ashley had a great group of friends and they really like wanted to figure out what was going on. And immediately came to the scene. So they talked to Ashley's friend, Alexis. How old was she again? She was 31.

Okay. Gotcha. friend how old was she again she's 31 okay gotcha so alexis said that ashley was an assistant manager at american eagle at the local mall and that she had actually worked the night before because it was thanksgiving and they had a big black friday sale so she had gone into work at like six o'clock that night of the night of Thanksgiving. And she'd work till like 3 a.m. And then she'd come home. And Alexis had been at Ashley's like letting her dog out while she was working those long hours.

And so Alexis had been there when Ashley got home for work from work. They talked. They hung out for a little bit. And then Alexis said that Ashley told her she was going to get some sleep because she had to go work the next day as well for this big Black Friday sale. This is wild. So someone had a very tight time frame. Super tight window. Alexis left Ashley's house at 445 a.m.

Holy shit. Mm-hmm. And it was like 8 o'clock when 9-1-1 was called to report the fire. Yeah. Super tight window. Alexis was actually

the one who told the police that Ashley's keys were missing from her apartment. Wait, is she the one who did this? that Ashley's keys were missing from her apartment. Wait, is she the one who did this? No, she's not. She's not. She's legitimately just a good friend.

All right. And her information that she was able to give the police were very helpful. So she gives them that information. She's like, her keys are missing. She was here. I was here with her at 4.45 a.m. So like. I can't imagine how traumatizing that would be.

Me either. So they started talking to the neighbors. One neighbor says that he went out and was like smoking a cigarette on his balcony at one point at like 6.30 in the morning. And he saw a car in the parking lot that he did not recognize. It looked out of place. It was a black Infiniti G35. So like a little two door Infiniti. And he said it had like a faded like toll sticker on the top of the car that drew his attention. He's like, hadn't seen it in the parking lot before. It sounds like everybody in this

apartment complex was like friendly with each other. And so like he noticed right away that a car was there that's not usually there. And so when this is all going on, he tells the police, I saw this car, seemed out of place. Maybe it's related. I saw that at 630 this morning. Another neighbor said that they heard a scream at about 730. This may have been the same neighbor. This may be Stephen who called the police. I was a little bit confused about which neighbor gave which story.

the police. I was a little bit confused about which neighbor gave which story, but I believe this is the same neighbor who called the police said that he heard a thud and a scream about 730 that morning. He'd actually like listened for a little bit. And then he heard Ashley's door close to her apartment. And so he assumed like she, I don't know, was leaving for work or whatever. So she must be fine. Yeah. And then he'd kind of gone back to sleep, drifted off for a little bit, and then he was awoken by the carbon monoxide detector going off. And he's the one who called the fire department, I believe. It's amazing that you're unsure of these details, but you know he was eating an English muffin. I don't know that. So police have learned, you know, kind of what Ashley spent the previous night doing, you know, when she was kind of last heard from when activity in her apartment was heard.

And again, it makes it a very tight window. Yeah. Somebody heard noises from her apartment at 730 and fire departments there by 8 a.m. Yeah. And so they know that she worked as an assistant manager at the American Eagle store at the Hulin Mall. Hulin Mall. Hulin Mall in Fort Worth. H-U-L-I-N.

Okay. And this was big, big business time for them. So she was working a bunch of hours. She had worked, you know, the overnight, like, yeah, Black Friday sale, whatever. So they asked her friend, Alexis, who was the one who told them, you know, about the keys and all of that, if she knew anybody who drove the Black Infinity that had been reported to them. And she said she didn't, but she could ask around. And so by this time, the police have gone to Ashley's work because it was the last place that they knew she had interacted with other people other than Alexis. And they speak to her manager, Chris Cravey.

And he said that he did know somebody who drove a black two-door Infiniti. Her name was Carter Cervantes. And she was a former employee at American Eagle. Shit. Yeah, she had been a co-worker of Ashley's, but she'd been fired in August. And Chris told them that Carter blamed Ashley for her firing. Chris told them that Carter blamed Ashley for her firing. There was a situation where there was a theft, a big theft, like $18,000 deposit went missing from the safe. So it was tax-free weekend.

And so it was a huge sales weekend for American Eagle. And a deposit was stolen from the safe. So they knew it was like somebody who worked there. And Ashley had been part of the crew who had watched the surveillance video as part of the management team. And she had said, it looks like possibly Carter or Carter's boyfriend

who also worked at the store. Yes. So Carter's boyfriend was Clarence Mallory. And OK they weren't supposed to work together. American Eagle has rules about this because Carter was also part of the management team and Clarence was not. But Carter had gotten him a job there. So they had actually worked at another American Eagle together. I'm sorry. What? I don't know. This is kind of a mess. It is kind of a mess. So they had worked at another American Eagle together. I'm sorry. What? I don't know. This is kind of a mess. It is kind of a mess. So they had worked at another American Eagle together.

The management had found out they were dating, and they told Carter she had to either quit or transfer to another location because she was the one who made the schedules. And so she can't be in charge of scheduling. Yeah, they didn't want to favoritism. Yeah, exactly. Gotcha. And so she had chosen to move, and she moved like six hours away. Exactly. Gotcha. And so she had chosen to move and she moved like six hours away. Wow. Yeah.

Her boyfriend, Clarence, ended up like no call, no showing, like three shifts in a row. And so he got fired from American Eagle and he was put in the system that she moved to, which was the same store that Ashley worked at. So that they could work at American Eagle? Work at American Eagle. All right. So weird. Yeah. So no one knew this initially, but Ashley had been part of the management team who had figured this out.

And Ashley had been kind of pegged by Carter as her biggest competition when it came to moving up the management team at American Eagle. Did this woman think she was at IBM in the 80s? I have no idea. OK. Was it IBM in the 80s? I have no idea. Okay. So the store manager for this particular American Eagle was out on medical leave.

And Ashley had been the one who had been tasked as like being the stand-in manager while the manager was out on medical leave. And so Carter took us like as a – she took it very personally and she thought that like Ashley was going to catch the eye of the district manager when really she should be the next one in line for a promotion. OK. Anyway, they had determined. Can you see this happening to you, Brandy? No. You really drink the corporate Kool-Aid. I do. I very much do.

And I I'm very loyal to every company that I've ever worked for. I mean, but I'm not competitive in that in that way. I am competitive, but I'm not so competitive that I think like somebody's out to get me or that like. Hmm. I would just prove that I was the right one for the job by like working way too hard for a company that undervalues me. OK, that seems right. I thought I was going to have to argue with you, but no, I think you've got yourself pegged pretty well there. All right.

That's how I would set myself apart. You know what I'm going to do? I'm going to show up early. I'm going to stay late and I'm not going to take my breaks. That's exactly what I'll do. That's how I'll prove it. And you know what? If I need to work six, seven days a week, I'm going to do it.

Yep. Yep. That's fine. I don't have to pee. I don't have to eat. Got my Depends on. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. So, okay. Carter and Clarence are both working at this American Eagle in August. This money goes missing. Eighteen thousand dollars. Ashley is brought in as part of the crew to watch the surveillance videos. And they see somebody with a mask on coming into the store, going directly to a lockbox, knowing exactly where the security cameras are. Oh, so they didn't even try to do the classic thing of like he holds up his girlfriend and like she. No.

Okay. No. Yeah. So they could they never no criminal charges ever came of this. But American Eagle believed that they had enough evidence to prove that it was Carter and her boyfriend that they were both were fired. Okay. evidence to prove that it was Carter and her boyfriend that they were both were fired. OK. I mean, when they were confronted about it, just the theft in general, like when there was like a store meeting about it, Carter made some comment about how like, I don't understand why it's a big deal.

Insurance will reimburse them for the money. It's like, wow, that's a way to make yourself look real innocent there. But was she wearing a full mink coat? Right. Exactly. So Carter really blamed Ashley for her firing and for her boyfriend's firing. All of the stuff about his name being different in the system and like his social security number, that all came out after they were fired. And they're like, well, yeah, this was like a whole plan the whole time.

So, yeah, I think we probably got the right people. But no charges were ever filed about it. And so now we're to Ashley has been found murdered. Her keys are missing. And so they find out that there's this woman who drives a two-door black Infiniti, which was spotted in the parking lot. And she has a grudge against Ashley. This is the wildest story. It's nuts.

Over a job at American Eagle. You got away with stealing the $18,000. You were never charged. You could literally get any job. Any job. In that mall even. Yes.

Alright. Yeah. So they decide to put Carter Cervantes under surveillance. So like that very same day they go to her house. They put her apartment complex where she lives. They put her under surveillance and they're like watching her and like no activity that day. But the very next day, Saturday at 8 a.m., they see her leave her apartment, get into her Infinity G35 with a man who they determined to be her boyfriend, Clarence Mallory. And they follow them.

And they drive to the mall. and they drive to the mall. And Carter gets out of the, like, she's, like, dropped off at the front, and, like, she gets out of the Black Infinity, and she goes into the mall. They did not go. Are you about to tell me that they went into American Eagle and applied for their jobs? No, that's not what I'm going to tell you. It's Saturday morning at 8 a.m. Oh, right.

No, that makes sense. The mall's not open. Okay. to tell you. It's Saturday morning at 8 a.m. Oh, right. No, that makes sense. The mall's not open. Okay. Which means that probably nobody's at American Eagle. What the f- And maybe they have the keys. And maybe they're going to go try and pull off a second robbery at American Eagle and get the Black Friday sale money out of the safe. Wow.

But there are cameras everywhere. So the police have followed them there. Right. I mean, in addition to that. Yeah. So Clarence Mallory is driving the Infinity. He pulls up to the mall. He lets Carter out. She goes inside to the mall.

Then he goes and parks in the parking lot. And the police come up and they have him roll down the window. And it turns out he doesn't have a driver's license on him. And so they arrest him for not having his driver's license. And then they go into this mall to try and find Carter. But they can't find her. They search the whole mall. Turns out they find on surveillance video that she had gone to the American Eagle.

She'd taken a key out of her pocket and she had attempted to open the gate. But the locks had already been changed. Because they knew Ashley's keys had been stolen. A whole day had passed by this point. So Ashley was found on Friday morning. Well, my God, American Eagle doesn't fuck around. No, apparently around. No. Apparently not.

Okay. I mean, she should have tried this shit on Aeropostale or something. You don't think they would have the locks changed fast? I don't know. They do seem like a step below, don't they?

So, but they never find Carter in the mall that day. They end up going back to her apartment complex and they find her like doing laundry in the community laundry room. And she's like, hey, what's up? I've been home all day. You know, I made Thanksgiving dinner for my boyfriend and then we were home all day on Friday. And then I've just been here doing laundry. I really thought this was going to be a where the heart is situation.

What do you mean? Did you ever read the classic book or watch the film? I watched the film. Yeah. Natalie Portman just lives in the Walmart. Yeah. I'm picturing a scenario where she just lives in that mall. Oh, you thought she was living in the mall.

Pretend she's a mannequin. No, no, no, no, no. I'm sorry. What if it was actually like the Twilight Zone that I love and she was a mannequin? Honestly, that would make maybe more sense to me than someone doing all this over fucking American Eagle. No kidding. So they've searched them all. They don't find Carter.

They go back to her apartment complex. They find her there. They have Clarence in custody at this point for driving without a driver's license. How long can they keep you for that? Not very long. So they bring her in. They've got her both in there doing interrogations like at the same time. They notice that there are superficial scratches on both of them.

Oh, my God. But neither of them are talking. They both say they had, you know, they were home. They didn't do anything. This is so fucked up. Mm-hmm. They also apparently were able to secure a search warrant for their apartment and they found

a big tub like a Rubbermaid tub type thing with bungee cords and rope and a taser and some duct tape. The duct tape was in the trash.

Yeah. They also had found, like, a bunch of locks in their house and, like, a lock picking kit. It looked like they'd been, like, practicing picking locks. It was, like, literally labeled lock picking practice lock. So. No. Yeah, that's what the article says. So like the police didn't really have to like figure this out.

Like it was just labeled right there for them. That is convenient. The initial interrogation of both Carter and Clarence didn't really turn up anything. They stuck to their stories that they hadn't been up to anything, that they'd been home, whatever. They hadn't been at the mall, nothing. But Carter did something weird when she was in an interrogation room by herself. They gave her a bottle of water and she took a drink of it and then she just like got this

look on her face and then she wiped the bottle down. Yeah. Yeah. Like wiped the rim where she'd drunk from. No, we get it. Yeah. But they had released them that day and they were both free to go. And then they secured these search warrants, searched their house, searched their car, the Infiniti G35.

Inside the car, they found a black plastic trash bag, a sharpening stone for a knife, a spent nine millimeter cartridge, or maybe not spent, maybe unspent. I don't know why I said spent. That's not in my notes in any way. So who knows? You just felt like you had to. I guess. I don't know. They found a walkie talkie.

They found a buck knife and a sheath. It was like a fucking kill kit. Yeah. Yeah. And they found a loaded Glock under the passenger seat. No, I'm sorry. Under the driver's seat. Boy, you're just making up all kinds of shit. I am. Jesus. So with all of that together and then the surveillance video where they were able to clearly see Carter with a fucking mask over her head in the mall attempting to open the American Eagle gate lock. They placed them under arrest and they were both charged with capital murder.

At some point, they also discovered a grave site that they had dug like just outside of town. I don't know how like they got there, how they discovered it. But it seems like they had actually planned to maybe kidnap Ashley, not murder her in her apartment and then take her to this site where they pre-dug a grave and kill her there. But something had gone wrong at the apartment. She fought back. I don't even really know.

I assume with the lock picking stuff that they were practicing picking a lock so they could break into Ashley's apartment and steal her keys. And when they did that, they didn't expect her to wake up maybe or they did expect her to wake up and they thought they'd kidnap her. I have a theory. What's your theory? I don't know. To me, it seems like if the plan is to kidnap someone and the plan is also to get that money from American Eagle, maybe they wanted her to do that dirty work and afterward kill her. No, that's actually.

Yeah, that's a solid. So she's the one on the surveillance video. She's the one. Yeah. Force her to do that. And then you take her out to this field where you've already dug a grave and you kill her there. And then you take her out to this field where you've already pre-dug a grave and you kill her there. But for whatever reason, a fight ensued at the apartment.

They killed her there in her apartment. Set the fire to cover it up, which they had not initially planned to do. And then still took the keys, still attempted to try and get the money from American Eagle. But waited a day. And so the lock didn't, the keys didn't work anymore. Clarence and Carter were both arrested and they were charged with capital murder once all of this stuff was put together. The state did waive their right to seek the death penalty and said that they were looking for life in prison without the possibility of parole. Both Clarence and Carter pled not guilty.

So these cases were tried separately, but essentially it was the exact same trial with the exact same evidence. So I'm really just going to present it once, but know these trials, two separate trials happened. My God. You're really phoning it in today. I'm not. I'm not. Carter Cervantes was the first one to stand trial. The prosecution believed that Carter was the mastermind behind this. Carter was the one who had falsified the documents to get Clarence, to be able to hire Clarence at the American Eagle. This is so wild to me, the amount of work that went into this to like at an American Eagle. OK, so honestly, that was my first thought when you first said all this. At trial, the prosecution told the jury that there were a couple of different reasons that

Carter and Clarence wanted to harm Ashley. They wanted her keys to steal the money from the store. That was number one. But they also had this grudge against her. They wanted revenge because they believed that Ashley was responsible for them losing their jobs at American Eagle. Not them for stealing. It's impossible to get another job anywhere else. Yeah.

I'm not shitting on a job at American Eagle. I'm just saying there are a million other jobs of that same caliber. Right. I just don't understand. Well, these clearly aren't very logical people. No. Right. Right.

And you got away with it, stealing the $18,000. Maybe they weren't hot enough to work at Hollister. Did you ever think about that? Yeah, maybe. They didn't have the body for Abercrombie. Okay. Or the laid-back vibes for Hollister. Mm-hmm.

They weren't approachable enough to work at Claire's. Yeah. They didn't have the self-control to work at Auntie Em's. That's probably true. I wouldn't. You know, this whole time I've been like, when's she going to stop me? Because I could go through a long list. A long list of mall stores.

They weren't dowdy enough to work at JCPenney. Oh, that's sad. Or rude enough to work at Dillard's. You think they're kind of snotty at Dillard's, do you? Not snotty, just rude. Okay. What do you think you ought to be to say work at like Nordstrom? Oh, classy. Yeah. Classy. I've got nothing negative to say. Yeah, i used to know someone who was like a an assistant department manager at nordstrom she had like a fashion degree like what was her name her name's oh do you know this person no but i recently okay this is weird i i recently found out that I know someone who used to date someone who worked at a Nordstrom. And I had to act like I wasn't as excited as I was.

Okay? All right. All right. Okay, great. Do you want me to go back to the trial here now? I suppose I do. I could go on, though. I suppose I do. I could go on, though.

The prosecution told the jury all about that previous theft case that resulted in Carter and Clarence losing their jobs. And talked about how Ashley was put in charge of the store in June of 2014 while the store manager was out on medical leave. And then at that same time, Carter worked there as an assistant manager and that she really took that as a slight to her. Like she really believed she should have been the one who was put in place as the acting manager while Chris was out. And then they talked about how on August 24th of 2014, $18,000 was stolen from the safe and that it was Ashley who specifically had looked at the surveillance video. But she wasn't the only one who had looked at these surveillance videos. Right. It's not logical. Yeah.

It's I've decided you are responsible for my actions. Yep. So what they determined when that money was stolen, that maybe the gate, maybe a back door hadn't been fully locked. And so they determined that Carter had been the one who closed that night before and that the person on the surveillance video stealing the actual money had been Clarence. And so that's how American Eagle had determined they had enough evidence to fire them, but they hadn't ever moved forward with pressing charges or anything like that.

And then they talked about how at that time, that's when the store manager found out that Carter had falsified documents to hire Clarence in the store to begin with. The prosecution also gave evidence at trial that the police believed the theory was kind of what we talked about a little bit. And again, there's not a ton of evidence about this, but this is what they believe that initially the plan was, is that Carter and Clarence had planned to kidnap Ashley, steal her keys, and then they had dug that grave. So obviously they planned that this would end in murder. There were some text messages on their cell phones about like this reconnaissance that they were doing. There were pictures of Ashley's apartment.

They had like the latitude and longitude coordinates of Ashley's apartment. Really? Yeah, I think they thought they were kind of like masterminds. Yeah. And yet they're documenting everything. Yeah. Okay. I apologize.

I told you earlier I didn't remember how they found the thing, but it turns out it's right here in my notes. They had latitude and longitude coordinates for that grave that they had dug. Okay. Are you planning to be honest for the rest of this? Yeah. It wasn't that I was not honest. It was that I just replied. Seems like a big lie.

Uh-huh. Seems pretty problematic. Okay, great. The prosecution also told the jury about all of the evidence that they had found when they searched the infinity, the basic kill kit that they had found in there. Yeah. Additionally, in Clarence's car, which was Cadillac when they searched his car, they found a Cadillac. Sorry.

Did I say Cadillac weird? Clarence in his Cadillac. They found two shovels, some plastic sheeting, some tools. Good grief. Yep. The prosecutor told the jury that there are no good murders, but sometimes there are some that you can at least understand. And in this case, like this was different. This took this.

There's no explanation for this. There's no logic to this. This is just a senseless murder. He said at minimum this took at least a month of planning. They stalked Ashley Harris like people stalk a deer. How awful. Yeah. Like that's why you took this woman off the earth yeah yeah oh it's nuts

yeah alexis ashley's friend was called to testify and she said that she had been at ashley's apartment that night like she left there at like sometime after 4 a.m and that she knew ashley had locked the door right after she left like she left there at like sometime after 4 a.m and that she knew Ashley had locked the door right after she left like she heard her engage the lock as she was walking away she also told the jury that she got a missed call from Ashley at 6 56 a.m but she had like it had like woken her up I believe and so she hadn't like answered it. She realized she'd missed the call pretty quickly and returned the call. Yeah. And that Ashley didn't answer.

Shit. So that makes you wonder if like that's about the time that like they broke into her apartment and that. Oh, my God. Fuck. I think that's horrifying to know like how much Ashley knew what was about to happen to her before it happened. Yeah. Stephen Lee testified. He talked about how he saw that car in the parking lot, the Infiniti G35, and that when all the police were there, he heard, you know, it seemed like something suspicious had happened.

And so he had reported that to the police because he believed that had been a suspicious vehicle. There was testimony about the 911 call, how the fire or the smoke detector had gone off or the carbon monoxide detector. And they called the police. There was testimony about the thud and the scream and all of that that had happened about 730. And all of that stuff that i already told you about jeff kaiser kaiser k-a-y-s-e-r was called to testify he talked about how he was ashley's friend and neighbor he said that when he woke up that morning to the sound of fire alarms he realized that it was ashley's apartment and he ran tried to, you know, get in and save her and was unable to because of the thick smoke. Wallace E. Hood Jr., an arson investigator, testified that he

located multiple points of origin to the fire. One was the bed, one was Ashley's body, and one was the closet. He also noted that a smoke detector from the apartment had been like taken down and had been shoved under her mattress. Like they hadn't known how to disable it, I'm guessing. And so they thought they could put it under the mattress to muffle it. Yeah. Mark Sedwick with the FBI, a special agent, obviously, a member of the cellular analysis survey, survey, a member of the cellular analysis survey team. So the cast, as as so many people call it, testified about the texts that had been sent between Clarence and Carter's phones planning this whole thing, the latitude and longitude stuff that had been found on their phones, and a specific text exchange that had occurred at 11.52 a.m. on November 28th.

So this is the morning that Ashley's found, but a couple hours later. Carter texts to Clarence. Hey, remember that thing you said I didn't clean well? Did you clean it? Did we leave it behind? Oh, my. And Clarence said, we left it.

I didn't touch it. And Carter responded, well, damn, that's not good. Take out all the trash and leave that. I need to take care of that. I'm so sorry I forgot. I don't know what they are referring to that they left behind, but something. They did find DNA evidence. They found Ashley's DNA on the gun that was in the Infinity.

They believe that Ashley had been pistol whipped with it it and that's how her blood transferred to it. They also found Ashley's blood inside the G35, the Infinity G35 or whatever fuck car it was. Yeah. I may have made up G35 just now. I'm in no position to tell you. Otherwise. to tell you. The prosecution played the surveillance video

from in front of the American Eagle and it showed that around 2 a.m. on the 29th of November that somebody tried to open the lock and was unsuccessful. And so then it seems that there were multiple attempts made by Carter to gain access to the American Eagle store.

Wow. Yeah. The medical examiner testified about the injuries to Ashley Harris. The autopsy revealed that Ashley had injuries all over her body. She had a laceration to the right side of her scalp. She had lacerations to her cheek and the left side of her face. She had a bruise on the right side of her face. She had a bruise between her eyes and a bruise around her left eye. There were lacerations on her lip. There was a scrape under her chin. There was a laceration in her ear. And they believed that one was caused by the pistol whip. her ear and they believed that one was caused by the pistol whip. She was just horribly beaten. She was tortured. Yeah. The medical examiner determined that Ashley's actual cause of death was asphyxiation. She had petechial hemorrhaging. So they hogtied her essentially. They tied her

hands and feet, beat her, and then strangled her to death. Good grief. When it was the defense's turn, their strategy was to basically say at Carter's trial that she didn't have anything to do with it. Right. It was all Clarence. Yep. And at Clarence's trial, they did the exact same thing. Clarence didn't have anything to do with it. It was all Carter. Yeah. Carter actually took the stand in her own defense at her trial. She told the jury that Clarence was super controlling, that he controlled everything she did down to what she ate and drank. She admitted that she had gone to the mall and attempted to access American Eagle, but claimed that she'd only done it because Clarence told her that he would kill her if she didn't. She testified that he had held the gun to her and told her that she had to do it. And that he also claimed when he was holding the gun on her that there was somebody

waiting outside her parents' house and that if she did not do it, they would go in and kill her parents. Okay. No, she's admitting to the things would go in and kill her parents okay no she's admitting to the things she has to admit to because there's no disputing the fact that she went to american eagle and tried to get in yep so she's admitting to that because she has to and everything else is just yeah getting a little extra spin she claimed that at the time that ashley would have been, she was asleep in her bed. He couldn't have possibly been there. And she did not know where Clarence was at that time. She told the jury that she did not kill Ashley and that she played no part in Ashley's death.

Sure thing. Okay. Yeah. And as I said, at Clarence's trial, he did the same thing. I don't believe that he testified in his own defense, but they blamed the entire thing on Carter, said that he had no involvement and was just an unwilling participant in some aspect of it. The jury did not believe either of them and they were both found guilty and they were both sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. Yeah. Both have appealed their sentences, but as far as I could tell, those appeals have not been successful to date. How old were they when they did this? Do you know?

Around the same age as Ashley. I would get – I've seen pictures of them. I did not get their ages. I didn't look them up. But like definitely late 20s, early 30s. Absolutely. Like maybe even mid-20s. Wow.

Okay. Yeah. This is just – So it's not even like your prefrontal cortex hasn't fully formed type of shit. No. Wow. I don't think so. Hold on.

Let me let me let me find the age real quick. OK. Yeah. Carter was 28 at the time of the murder. So yeah. OK. Clarence Mallory was 22. So he was younger.

OK. OK. Yeah. Hmm. murder so yeah okay florence mallory was 22 so he was younger okay okay yeah which i'm guessing is probably why the prosecution went with the theory of like she's the mastermind and well i mean and to be and obviously like that she's the one who doctored those yeah absolutely documents yeah i mean i don't think it's a stretch just oh i don't think so either i don't think so either i think it's a huge fucking stretch for her to be like, I didn't have anything to do with this. Like, the things I did participate in, I was forced to do against my will. Hmm. Yeah, this is just so senseless to me. Did Ashley's family speak up at all?

I didn't find anything about her family. Okay. The stuff I found about her personally is that she was just like really popular. Like she had tons of friends and just like this great social group. And she was just like super cute. There's all these pictures of her. And she's got just like this very distinct look. Okay.

She wore like these very swoopy bangs. And then she always wore like a backwards baseball hat over it. Oh, she was cool. Fucking cool as shit. Yeah. Yeah. And one friend was interviewed for this article that I read on Oxygen. And she was like, everybody loved her.

Everybody thought she was beautiful. She got hit on by guys. She got hit on by girls like constantly like, yeah. It's just so senseless. Yeah. Like, yeah. It's just so senseless. Yeah.

Like, I just can't imagine, like, you lost a job and, like, this is – Yeah, so what do you know about them and their backgrounds? I don't know much about their backgrounds at all. Hmm. Okay. And when I say much, I know nothing about their background we all knew what yeah yeah why what do you what are you thinking well i'm i'm thinking it would be really interesting to know because this is so unusual and odd. Mm-hmm. I mean,

people get weird about money. People get crazy about money. But like, money is not the motivation here. No. It's just not. No, you don't kill someone in this way over money. No. You don't torture someone to death over a few... I mean,

it would be a lot of money. I think they were talking about close to $50,000 is what would be in in the safe but like no you don't torture someone to death over that like yeah I mean the other thing is like if it's just about getting that money that's in the safe probably all you got to do is have a gun I mean yeah yeah so they they were doing what they wanted to do exactly well they wanted to do. Exactly. Well, that was disgusting. Yeah. Thanks a lot.

Sorry. You're welcome. Should we do an ad? Seems weird, but all right. Okay. Do-do-do-do. This is an ad. That's the end of the ad.

Welcome back. Did you miss us? We missed you too. I love you so much. Brandy likes you as a friend. How'd you get that? In them jeans. You know what to do with that big fat butt.

I started singing that song because I noticed Kiki is in the bedroom asleep on my jeans. Oh, all right. How'd you get that cat in them jeans? Meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow. That was cute. Thank you. Get that a lot. All right, Here we go.

I could use a massage. You want to massage me while I tell this tale? I sure don't. But thank you for asking. You've never looked less interested in anything I've offered you. Can you imagine anything creepier than hearing a story from a woman who was getting a massage? I feel like it'd be unsettling. Are you. Are you letting out like a little moan every now and again? If you're doing your job right.

So that's a challenge to you, my friend. All right. Although it sounds like you're just going to sit there. I'm not. I'm not massaging you. And listen. That's exactly what I'm going to do. Okay.

Just so you know, for the massage, I will wear basketball shorts and a full coverage sports bra. Thank you. I would like it no other way. Okay. For this episode, I pulled from a fabulous 48 hours episode. I don't think 48 hours gets the credit it deserves. I like 48 hours. Yeah. Yeah. Hmm. You going 48 hours gets the credit it deserves. I like 48 hours. Yeah.

Hmm. You're not going to tell me the name of it? I'm not going to tell you the name of it. Also a piece by Sarah Finsky for St. Louis on the Air. Okay. That's their NPR affiliate. There was an episode of Unlocking the Truth. You remember that Ryan Ferguson show?

I was going to say, I know this case because of that. Shut up. You know it. Yeah. Damn. Ferguson show? I was going to say, I know this case because of that. Shut up. You know it. Yeah. Damn. Don't. Damn it all to hell. All right.

Well, way to take the win. Do you want me to pretend I don't know it? No. Okay. We've gotten enough fake bullshit from you. Also reporting from the Daily Journal. That's where I got most of the you know that i love ryan ferguson you thought that i didn't see his show when he was looking into this case

or you thought perhaps i wouldn't remember it i should know that you would remember when you call dibs on this i was like oh that's from that ryan ferguson show wow wow wow okay i thought you had no idea i mean i covered last week i covered yeah i've never heard of that everyone on earth has heard that story i had never heard that story and yeah all right well way to take the wind out of my fucking sails. I'm sorry. Here we go. Picture it. Yeah. It's me blowing wind back into your sails. That doesn't really work because you suck.

No. Oh, well said. Okay. You know what? I need to shake this off. Okay. You know what? I need to shake this off. Okay. This blow that you've dealt to me. I apologize. I wish you didn't have such a good memory.

Because me, you could probably tell me the same story you told me six months ago. Oh, I'm sure that I could. Yeah. Hey, hey, hey. Don't even think about it, bub. Okay. Picture it. Yeah, I'm picturing it.

Yeah, you're probably picturing the whole fucking thing because you know the story. Yeah. Great, you want to tell it? I'm picturing a trailer. Shut up. Okay. 1998, Hopewell, Missouri. Hopewell is a very small place, and I'm calling it a place because you can't technically call it a town.

Oh. Hopewell is an unincorporated community. Okay. It's super rural, which means that I am now contractually obligated by the powers vested in me by our true crime overlords to tell you that Hopewell is the kind of place where people don't lock their doors, Brandy. Oh, yeah. Mm-hmm. This kind of place where people don't lock their doors, Brandi. Oh, yeah. This kind of thing doesn't happen here.

Fun fact, Hopewell, Missouri used to be called Hopewell Furnace, Missouri. It did? Yes. They named it after a furnace. Oh, I thought it was going to be like, used to be called Hopeless. And then they decided that was kind of a downer. No. No. No. Hopewell Furnace?

It was called Hopewell Furnace. Like a heater? I mean, is there another kind of furnace? I don't know. Well, at any rate, in 1886, people were like, this is embarrassing, so they changed it to Hopewell. Okay. That's your fun fact. Hopewell is about an hour and a half south of St. Louis, but I don't have to tell you that because you already know this fucking story.

And it was home to the Polite family. The family consisted of Rita and Ed and their daughters Crystal and Melanie and their son Michael. Things were kind of rough for the family. What year is it? 98. Yeah and they're how old are those kids? I mean those are like kids born in the 80s. Those names are yeah for sure right? Yeah absolutely. You know what I just figured out. I know why you remember this case so well. Why? Your coochie was a tingling, my friend. OK, I hate to say it, but it's because Ryan Ferguson's hot. First of all, Ryan Ferguson is hot. But please, we've already sexually harassed this man enough. Leave him alone.

Michael, is he hot? I actually don't remember what he looks like. Oh, yeah. Okay. Everyone, she's lying through her teeth, but that's fine. Let me describe this man and just tell me if this sounds attractive to you in a sexual manner. He is bald. He's got a nice big beard and piercing blue eyes. That does seem like my style. Reminder, you're married.

I am. To a bald man with a big beard and piercing green eyes. Also, because variety is the spice of life, there's another guy in this story and he is also, wait for it, bald with a big bushy beard. Okay, great.

So, yeah, I think we all know why this story is etched into your heart. All right. Stop it. Okay, so things were kind of rough for the family because Brandy kept coming over and hitting on everybody. Stop it! Rita and Ed got married as teenagers, and they had a very rough marriage, and the kids all knew it. Ed cheated on Rita constantly. He was mentally abusive.

They witnessed abuse in the home. He was mentally abusive. They witnessed abuse in the home. At one point in 1997, the police were called because Ed had knocked Rita to the ground and choked her. And their son, Michael, had witnessed the whole thing. By that point, Rita and Ed had been together for a long- ass time, like 20 years. But eventually Rita was like, okay, fuck this. And she filed for divorce.

And, you know, the marriage had been rough and boy, this divorce was rougher. So I don't know the exact ages of all the kids, but Michael was 14 and his sisters were older. And I think they were probably out of the house by then because this divorce really had the biggest impact on Michael. He was the one who was kind of put in the middle of everything. His dad really wanted Michael to come live with him, and in fact he offered Michael money to come live with him. Okay.

But Michael didn't want to do that. He wanted to live mostly with his mom. For the record, that's not to say that Michael and his mom had a perfect relationship or even that things were going particularly well for Michael in general. At this point, he was enrolled in the seventh grade for the third time. Oh, wow. Yeah, he was enrolled in the seventh grade for the third time. Oh, wow. Yeah, he just didn't show up to school. He had behavioral issues. In fact, around that time when his dad knocked his mom down and choked her, Michael was hospitalized after he threatened to kill his mother and kill himself. So things were really bad. But the divorce was moving forward, and in late November of 1998, a judge granted Rita alimony, child support, part of Ed's pension, and half the 401K.

And Ed was livid. Witnesses said that he had an outburst in the courtroom. According to one source, he told Rita, you will never see the day when you get that money. Another source said that he told her, you'll never live to see a dime of that money. Wow. Yeah, so slightly different wording, but same general idea. Yeah. Okay.

Just a couple days later, it's December 4th, 1998. Rita went to work at a local bar, and 14-year-old Michael was bored, so he decided to ride his bike down to the general store. While he was there, he met up with his friend, 15-year-old Josh Sansashi. was there, he met up with his friend, 15-year-old Josh Sansashi. The two boys hung out for a while, and Michael invited Josh back to his house to spend the night and maybe play some video games, you know, who knows. So the two boys went back to Michael's house, and the house was a trailer, as you've already pointed out, because you know every detail of the story. I don't. That's the thing. I don't know every detail of this. I just know the basics.

You just know what everybody looks like, right? So Michael's room was on one end. His mom's room was on the other. And Rita came home, you know, 11 o'clock midnight that night with sandwiches for the boys. And they had their sandwiches. And afterwards she was like, okay, I'm going to bed. And Mike asked Josh where he wanted to sleep. So Josh had the option of either sleeping out on the living room couch or going back to Michael's room and sleeping on the floor. And Josh decided to go sleep in Michael's room on the floor.

So according to Mike, they went back to his room, put the radio on, smoked a little pot, and fell asleep. on, smoked a little pot, and fell asleep. And at about 6 a.m. the next morning, the boys woke up to the scent of smoke. Interestingly, not a ton of smoke. He said it initially made him think of like when his mom burned bacon. Okay. So Mike opened his eyes, and the room was a little hazy with smoke, and he threw the blankets off of himself. He went to his bedroom door. He threw it open, and then there was a lot more smoke. He yelled for his mom, but she didn't respond. He yelled again, no response.

All he heard was the smoke alarm going off in the dining room. Mike started choking. Josh got up. The boys ran outside. Mike saw that his mom's truck was parked outside, and he realized, oh, my God, she's still in the house. Yeah. So he did the only thing he could think to do.

He grabbed the garden hose, ran back inside the trailer, trying to get to his mom's room. And in the meantime, Josh ran for help. So the good thing is that, you know, even though this is a very rural area, the Polites had neighbors and the neighbors were mostly family and they were kind of right there next to them. So Josh was able to run and get help. And Mike ran into the house with the hose, but he couldn't reach his mom's room. He dropped to his knees and then he entered his mom's room and what he saw was horrifying. His mom was dead. Her body was on fire from the waist up.

Oh my gosh. She was covered in blood. There was blood on the walls, blood on the floor. All he could really see were her legs. And he heard the crackling of fire. Michael's aunt and uncle, Chuck and Patsy Skiles, lived right next door. And I believe they're the ones who called the police. I think they're the ones who Josh ran to. At any rate, police arrived on the scene and couldn't believe how awful it was. It was a very bloody crime scene. There had

clearly been a struggle. An autopsy would later reveal that Rita had been bludgeoned to death. She'd been hit in the head by something, likely multiple times, and was eventually rendered unconscious, and then her body had been set on fire. There was some debate over whether she might have been sexually assaulted. She was found, I believe, with just underwear and, you know, yeah, I don't know. These cases are wildly similar. I know, I know. We need to get out of sync with one another, my friend. This is too much. An arson investigator looked at the scene and determined that an accelerant had been used to feed the fire. Gasoline, most likely.

Police, of course, spoke to Michael and Josh, and right off the bat, they were kind of creeped out. Michael had apparently just discovered his mother brutally murdered, and yet he wasn't crying. He wasn't emotional. Okay. You disgusted Brandy? Yes, how dare he? No, everybody processes stuff. Bah, bah, bah, bah, bah.

You said it like a bird. I did. No, everybody processes things differently. No, there's a right way and a wrong way to process something incredibly traumatic. And he was doing it wrong. Okay. Sure. Yeah, it's amazing to me, these situations that are just unimaginable. And yet people are so confident. Have decided what the right way is to react to them.

Right. Right. Yeah. Perhaps he was in shock. Perhaps he was stunned by what he had seen. Yeah. You know another thing people never seem to think? Perhaps he's a 14-year-old who thinks he's not supposed to cry in front of his friend.

Who knows? Yeah. I really think the other thing that we never consider in these things is what if somebody's just kind of weird? Yeah. I really think the other thing that we never consider in these things is, what if somebody's just kind of weird? Yeah. I mean, for real. Honestly, like, not a murderer. Yeah.

Just different. Yeah. Lock them up, I guess. I guess so. Okay. So they took the boys to the station to get their statements, and on the way there, Michael said something really weird. He said, what's going to happen to my mom's truck?

The police were disgusted. This kid's mom was dead. He wasn't emotional about it and all he cared about was her truck. And all he cared about was her truck. That could mean so many different things. Right. Yeah. Okay.

No, I mean, again, so his sisters were interviewed for the 48 Hours episode, and they talked about, you know, when when you lose someone there's this desire to hold on to things absolutely i don't i don't even you know maybe it's that maybe again it's just this wild thing that none of us can imagine happening just happened to him he's probably probably going to say whatever. Yeah. Also, he's 14. Yeah. Did I mention he's 14? He's 14. Yeah, he's 14. My God. Later, when the police got Michael's statement, they were struck by how little sense it made.

His mom was violently attacked in this trailer, and Michael had slept through the whole thing? Yeah. Mm-mm. Okay. Bullshit. They decided to administer a voice stress test. He's also on the opposite end of the trailer. Yeah, a trailer, not a mansion, Brandy.

Come on. Think with your head. All right. That's that lump three feet above your ass. Just being helpful. Thank you. What's a voice stress test? It's like a polygraph test in that it's inadmissible in court because it doesn't mean shit.

Okay, great. And yet they do it anyway. They're going to put a ton of weight in it too, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, they administer this voice stress test and Michael failed. They told him he'd failed every single question. Time to be honest.

Time to tell us what really happened. Okay. Fuckers. Time to tell us what really happened. Okay. Fuckers. Anyway, for the record, because I can sense that you're being kind of a bitch about this whole thing. They did look at other suspects, so relax.

They looked into Michael's dad, Ed Polite. But Ed had an airtight alibi. Or as we like to say on this podcast, a rock hard alibi. A throbbing alibi. He lived like 80 miles away and he'd been at work. So couldn't have been him. Had to be Michael. Well, yep. Okay. What?

Do you have something you'd like to say? How he for sure was at work? They have him on camera in the workplace? Well, it's 98, so calm down. But yeah, I mean, he's there. Okay. His time clock. His time clock and his time card.

Whatever. Also, the giant clock he wears around his neck, like Flava Flava. Flava Flava. All right. All right. So he has a throbbing alibi. Sure. Yeah. It must be Mike.

Now, some people have said that he wasn't accounted for. But, you know. Oh, really? Well, let's hear more about that. Let's not. How about we don. Oh, really? Let's hear more about that. Let's not. How about we don't? No. How about we hear more about Michael? No. And how good he is at committing crimes. Yeah, so they decided it was Michael.

So then they, like, when this guy gave the briefest... I'm sorry, did you not hear the evidence? The briefest voice stress test. He failed the voice test. Of some alibi. They were like, oh, yep, this guy's cleared. Must be Michael. Must be Michael. Must be Michael. Must be Michael.

What song is that? Must be Santa. Must be Santa. Santa Claus. How do you know all these Christmas songs that no one has ever heard of? I know every Christmas song ever. But what is that one? I love Christmas music. Okay, but I thought I did too.

Who's got a beard that's big and white? You don't know this song? Must be Santa. Well, I feel like I could answer that question. Must be Santa. Must be Santa. Santa Claus. Nothing?

No. Okay. But you know what? I like to stick to the classics. Who comes to town on a special night? Who's got a beard that's big and white? Nothing? I mean, it's obviously Santa is the answer.

It must be Santa. Could we do a remake of that song where it's just me going, obviously it's fucking Santa. It's fucking Santa. Idiots. They're like kids singing for the chorus. What a touching thing. Okay. So I'm glad we all agree that it's Michael.

No. It's Michael. No, so the police decided that when his reaction didn't match. The evidence led them there. No. What evidence? Listen, he was a cold-blooded killer, okay? And

he failed the voice stress test. Oh my god. His eyes. Uh-oh. He's been telling lies. Brandy's cramming her jeans. He's got a beard. Little bald head.

At this point, he's 14, so please don't be gross. Well, but he wasn't bald when he was 14. We all know that you are waiting many, many years. At least four to... Anyhow. Anyhow, I don't think you should fall

in love with this man, Brandy, because he's obviously such a cold-blo killer and he's weirdly good at committing murder. I've got to add that in right now because he managed to hide the murder weapon brilliantly. Yeah, they never found it. No. Great. Also, he managed to hide his bloody clothes brilliantly because they didn't find those either. managed to hide his bloody clothes brilliantly because they didn't find those either also i don't know how he pulled this off but there'd been a struggle um and he hadn't sustained any

injuries not even a scratch wow to add to that he wasn't very big again he's 14 years old which is so weird that you keep talking about him in this way um yeah so there you go now of course michael denied having anything to do with his mom's murder but you know the facts sure proved otherwise investigators tested michael's tennis shoes they had a member of their canine unit sniff his tennis shoes, and that dog found traces of gasoline on them. Okay. They knew, based on looking at the crime scene, that an accelerant had been used on the fire and investigators confronted Michael with that evidence and Michael was like well yeah you know I bet there was

gasoline on my shoes I like to set fires it's what I do for fun he didn't say that what yeah he I mean he just yeah he liked to set fires see now now you're starting to wonder if you've been wrong. No, I'm not. He is also a 14-year-old boy. I think a lot of 14-year-old boys are like... Nope, this is the first one. Yeah, fire school man. As a matter of fact, he told the police, the night before his mom was murdered, Josh and he...

I once had a 16-year-old boy pour a B in gasoline and light it on fire to impress me. Are you serious? Yeah. What? Are you making that up? No. Who? Who?

Are you serious? Yeah. He had his dirt bike, and so he was, like, showing off. Was this in the parking lot? I hope not. No, it was at my house. Your dad must have been pissed. He lit your lawn on fire?

No, he did it on the street out in front of my house. Oh, okay. Were you impressed? Not particularly. Oh, don it on the street out in front of my house. Oh, okay. Were you impressed? Not particularly. Oh, don't lie. Don't lie. I wasn't. She's lying to everyone.

I was not. It was the 4th of July. Mm-hmm. I was lighting snakes. Mm-hmm. And he was lighting my heart on fire. What happened that night? A little smoochy smooch? No, nothing happened.

And now, that man is in prison for murder. No! Because everyone who likes to light fires when they're a teenage boy... Commits murder. That's right. Yeah. We don't make the rules. Mm-hmm. Yeah, so he told the police that on the night of his mom's murder, he and Josh When they're a teenage boy. Commits murder. That's right. Yeah. We don't make the rules. Yeah.

So he told the police that on the night of his mom's murder, he and Josh went to the railroad tracks and lit a fire. Investigators went out to the railroad tracks. And sure enough, there was evidence that those sadistic little fucks had set a fire. Sadistic little fucks? I a fire. A sadistic little fucks? I added that in. Okay. Yep, yep, yep. Now there were some things that the investigators didn't follow up on. For example, there were boot prints found outside the trailer.

They didn't mess with those or preserve them in any way because, you know, more evidence is just more clutter is what I always say. Also, a neighbor reported that her dogs, like, lost their ever-loving shit at, like, three in the morning.

But, you know, didn't follow up on that either. Okay, good. Yeah. Yeah. You'd hate to get Okay, good. Yeah. Yeah. You'd hate to get too much information. Exactly.

Yeah. When you've already got your guy, why look further? Again, you know, they tried to look for that murder weapon. They tried to look for Michael's bloody clothes. But, you know, he must have stashed them away real good. But it didn't matter. They had evidence tying him to the crime scene. Rita's body had been doused with gasoline, they were pretty sure,

and Michael's shoes had traces of gasoline on them. All they needed was for 15-year-old Josh to tell the truth about what he had witnessed that night. It took a few days, but eventually Josh told the investigators what they wanted to hear. And by that, I, of course, mean the truth. Two days after the murder, Josh gave a videotaped statement. And in that statement, he's on a couch with a police officer on one side of him and another police officer on the other side. And he looks like he has been abducted by terrorists. Absolutely.

That's also terrifying. In the video, Josh said that on the morning of Rita's murder, he woke up to a barking dog. He heard a thud. He heard a woman's voice. He looked around and didn't see Michael in bed. So for all you slow pokes out there, that obviously means that Michael was not in that room and therefore he was killing his mom. It was like dark in the room and he couldn't tell for sure if he was in there. I can tell you need more evidence. Okay.

All right. How about just like some evidence? How about this? Okay. At the time, everyone called Michael Bernie. Because they like to set fires. Well, some people said it's because his middle name was Bernard. Well, some people said it's because his middle name was Bernard.

But I'm pretty sure it's because he liked to burn things. Okay. After Josh made that videotaped statement, Michael was arrested. He was taken to a juvenile detention facility to await trial. And while he was there, he confessed to the crime to who three people is that enough for you oh what do you want 14 what did he say okay was he like trying to act tough because he was in like the juvenile detention center with like scary other dudes no um It was about a month after his mom's murder and Michael attempted to die by suicide. And three staff members said that when he was asked about it, he said,

I haven't cared since December 5th. That's when I killed my mom. I killed my mom. Michael claims that he said, I haven't cared since December 5th. That's when they killed my mom. But who are you going to believe? Staff members with no reason to lie or a kid who, you know, probably for sure did it. For sure. That is just probably they just misheard him.

Right. Bless you. Thank you. Was that an adorable sneeze? It was super adorable. I've always wanted a real cute sneeze. Like, you know those women who are like, it's a chew!

Yes. You are one of them. So cute. Have you ever sneezed and some snot comes out? Oh, God. Why? What? Yeah, me neither. I mean, obviously that's happened, but why are we talking about it? Exactly. Let's talk about murder and people being lit on fire instead weirdo oh it's a different kind of terrible yeah snot is the worst no

i'm sorry dogs dying is the worst stop it and snot michael was in that detention center for three years awaiting trial. The whole time he thought he'd be found not guilty. So did a lot of his family members. His aunt, who lived next door to him, was especially adamant. She was like, he didn't have a scratch on him. I mean, of course he didn't do this. No jury is going to find him guilty.

Also, I'm not very good at predicting the future, is what she said right after she said that statement. Oh, did she? Yeah. The DA's office offered Mike a deal. Plead guilty to voluntary manslaughter. You'll get 15 years. But he refused. Yeah.

I guess that didn't bother the prosecution too much. They had scientific evidence linking him to the crime and they had Josh ready and willing to testify. All Josh can testify to is that he woke up in the middle of the night and didn't see mike in a dark room and you want to hear something really wild he can't even testify to that really yeah so they offered josh immunity if he'd tell them everything he knew and josh took the immunity deal but in a deposition right before Michael went on trial, he clarified. He said, yeah, I heard the dog bark. I heard a woman's voice, heard the thud. But I had no way

of knowing whether Michael was out of the room at that point. He said, it's not that I didn't see him in his bed. It's that I couldn't see him in his bed. Yeah. So the one time he made that statement about Michael being out of the room was for that videotaped statement. Every time before then, every time since then, he has said that that was inaccurate. And of course, he has also said that he said what investigators wanted him to say. So the star witness wasn't much of a star in that sense. Nonetheless, in January of 2002, Michael went on trial for his mother's murder he was 17 and he looked a lot different than when this crime occurred the visual difference between a boy at 14 and that same boy at 17 is huge unless that boy is Norman Caruso. Right. This trial was like three days long.

And it was interesting. The jury heard that this other boy, Josh, had been given immunity, but neither the prosecution nor the defense put him on the stand. And the prosecution didn't even show the jury that videotaped statement. Really? Mm-hmm. What do you make of that? I don't know.

What do you make of it? Well, of course, I've got all kinds of opinions on it. I think the prosecution knew that if they called him, he wouldn't say what they wanted him to say. And the defense, in my opinion, made a huge mistake not calling him. They absolutely should have called him. And they wouldn't. Yeah. The prosecution didn't want to play the video because if they played the video, then the defense would call him to contest it.

That's. The defense absolutely should have called him. Yeah. That is a huge mistake. Mm hmm. Absolutely. But don't worry, it's just a kid's life on the line. Exactly.

Yeah, no big deal. Fuck. So the prosecution called in experts who testified about the traces of gasoline on Michael's shoes and how gasoline was used at the crime scene. There was some lab testing done on carpet samples from Rita's room. And the expert did have to admit that the testing didn't find any evidence of an accelerant on those samples. But he explained it by saying that the accelerant had probably burned off. And that's why the lab couldn't actually find any evidence of an accelerant at the scene. Okay. But they'd looked it over real

good and they knew what they were looking at. So don't worry about it. Great. Another thing, let's not forget that Michael admitted to starting a fire on the train tracks that night. And you know what? The burn pattern on the railroad tracks matched the burn pattern that was found on his mother. The jury didn't get to hear about Michael's problems at school or even about the fact that he'd threatened to kill his mother. But they did hear from a witness who said that a few weeks before the murder, mother, but they did hear from a witness who said that a few weeks before the murder, Michael and Rita got into an argument about money, and afterward, Michael sat there, you know, angrily flicking a lighter. They heard about his confession by those three staff members, though only two of them testified in court.

three staff members, though only two of them testified in court. The defense was shockingly weak. It lasted less than half a day, but in fairness, Michael's public defender, Wayne Williams, had never defended someone in a homicide case all by himself before. Great. all by himself before. Great. Michael wanted to take the stand, but Wayne wouldn't let him. And that's tough because my feeling is,

yeah, probably wouldn't. I understand why lawyers don't want their clients to take the stand, but at the same time, it is their life on the line. And my God, are you doing a good enough job to make him feel comfortable just sitting there through the trial? Wayne also didn't call Michael's sisters to the stand. He didn't explore the idea that perhaps

there was someone out there with an actual motive for this crime. Someone who, I don't know, like four days beforehand threatened to kill Rita. Exactly. That's so wild to me. So they think that the what is the prosecution claiming the motive is here? This is just like a kid who likes setting fires. So he beat his mom to death and set her on fire? Cold-blooded. I mean, I'm sure they made some argument. Like, if I'm the prosecution and this is my case, he wanted her truck or, you know, it was money-related or something.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Also, he's just pure evil. Uh-huh. So the defense's case instead was basically about how there wasn't much direct evidence tying Michael to this crime. At least Johnny Polite, who was Michael's dad's cousin, told investigators that he'd found a tire iron in Michael's closet, a bloody tire iron. But it was later determined that it wasn't the murder weapon. What?

What? What? Does that seem like a big deal to you? Yeah, it seems like a huge deal. You're always freaking out over nothing. Seems like a huge deal. you? Yeah, it seems like a huge deal. You're always freaking out over nothing. Seems like a huge deal. Yeah. Yeah.

That is a huge deal. Yeah. Yeah. The police searched the trailer and this dude went in there and he all of a sudden finds the murder weapon? Right. And, of course, one of the investigators who searched that scene was like, no, there's absolutely no way that that was missed, that was planted there. Oh, my gosh. The bottom line is the defense called three witnesses, but they didn't call any experts to try to dispute what the prosecution's expert witnesses had said. In his closing statement,

prosecutor Richard Hicks said that Michael Polite had never been an innocent 14 year old boy. He was an admitted pot smoker. Investigators get a load of this, had found condoms in his room. Yep. Yep. Well, I mean, just send them straight to room. Yep. Yep. Well, I mean, just send him straight to hell.

Yeah. Right? He was cold-blooded. The only time he ever expressed remorse for this crime was a month after the murder when he admitted he'd done it. Bing, bang, boom, they'd found the murderer. The idea that someone else might have done it was ridiculous. He said that if there was someone else who killed Rita, then that was, quote, the luckiest intruder in the world.

At one point, Washington County Prosecuting Attorney John Rupp tapped in and called Michael a self-serving, self-centered young man. He pointed out that Michael had admitted to seeing his mom on fire, but had he tried to pull her body from the flames? No. Okay, but he had attempted to take a hose in and he was attempting to save his mother that to me is one of the most fucked up things you can say yeah in this situation he did he went in with a hose he tried to get to her the other thing is if he had done that then you'd just be talking about how there was evidence all over his clothes. So don't give me that. He tampered with the scene to make it, yeah.

The thing that makes me really, really mad, though, is you've got a 14-year-old who finds that his mother has been murdered and set on fire and you are gonna say he handled it the wrong way right oh my gosh i know this is when i become the most fucked up version of myself, Brandi. Wonderful. This is when I say terrible things like, good luck. I wish it upon you. I don't really wish it upon. No, hang on. I don't really wish it upon anybody.

But I just think. But yeah, see how you would react in that situation. Right. Because I bet it's not as cool, calm, and collected as you want to think. And like, you're not going to do everything fucking right. Like, you think this 14-year-old boy should have done. Yeah. I think this part is really interesting.

So earlier in the trial, a volunteer firefighter had testified that the back door to the trailer had been ajar when he arrived. So they had, like, you know, the sliding glass doors. And now it was a can. That was so stupid, and I hate you. How did it turn from ajar into a can? No one knows. That's right. No one could know. No one found. That's right. No one could know. No one found a wand.

Anyway, so the prosecutor said that after Michael and Josh went to get help. Oh, I'm sorry. You threw me off with your hilarious comedy. So, okay. Don't let my good looks fool you, Kristen. I am a professional comedian. Sometimes I get sucked in by those piercing blue eyes and that juicy bootay. So, okay, some people might say that an intruder got in using that sliding glass door, which was left ajar or a can.

But that was wrong. The prosecutor said that after Michael and Josh went to get help, they'd come back to the trailer. And rather than extinguish the blaze, you know what they did? What? They probably ran back to Michael's room and grabbed a marijuana plant and ran out the back door with it. What evidence is there of that? They're bad boys.

Was a marijuana plant found somewhere? Well, there was marijuana found in the room, and I don't know. They want to, like, get rid of more bad stuff and, you know. Hey, they could have gone in there and, like, tried to help or something, but instead they probably went and grabbed a marijuana plant and ran out the back door with it. What the fuck? That's a weird claim or weird accusation is it or do we have to find a reason why the back door is ajar when we're saying that it couldn't have possibly been an

intruder yeah yeah in the defense's closing argument wayne williams explained that the Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. In the defense's closing argument, Wayne Williams explained that the gasoline that was found on Michael's shoes could be easily explained. You know, he'd been playing with gas and setting railroad ties on fire the night before. He also argued that if Michael had planned to kill his mom, why would he invite a friend to sleep over that night? Didn't make any sense. So the jury went into deliberation, and they deliberated for about four hours. And they found him guilty of second-degree murder. At his sentencing, Michael's sisters fought hard for him.

They told Judge Kenneth Prate that Michael was innocent, that the investigation into their mother's death had been flawed. Crystal said that Michael hadn't gotten a fair trial. She told the judge, I really believe all the evidence points to somebody else. Evidence points to somebody else. She talked about the frustration of having the people who were supposed to find their mother's killer instead get tunnel vision and focus on her innocent brother. Yeah. She said, we are having to fight the people who are supposed to help us. I would rather no one pay for this crime than the wrong person pay for it. Yeah. Rather no one pay for this crime than the wrong person pay for it.

Yeah. The judge sentenced Michael to life in prison without the possibility of parole. What year? 2002. Okay, so he's going to be able to file for resentencing following the 2012 Supreme Court decision. How about you just kick my ass right here and now? How about you just take my story from me, rip it from my horribly manicured hands, and just break my spirit? Okay, I'm so sorry, but you're fucking kidding me. Life in prison without the possibility of parole on the weakest fucking evidence ever yeah yeah it's really scary yeah it's terrifying

and i'm sorry what year is it again i'm ma'am is something wrong are you short-circuiting it's 2002 okay so he has to wait 10 years for that Supreme Court ruling to come down even. Oh my God. Okay. You done? Yeah. You finished? Mm-hmm.

Mm. Mighty good of you. You got a Christmas song you want to sing? Not right now, but thank you for asking. Please, no hits. Wait, do you know the Holly and the Ivy? Yes, that's a hit. That's not a hit. Yes, do you know the Holly and the Ivy? Yes, that's a hit. That's not a hit. Yes, it is.

No, I don't think it is because I was singing that in the car in both David and Jack. Yeah. Oh, shit. You know why we both know that song? Yeah, we sang it in choir freshman year. Yeah, I sang that in the car around Christmas time, not like yesterday or anything. Right, it'd be weird if you were singing Christmas songs right now. And David and Jack were both like, how do you know this song?

And I was like... They were like, please stop. No, they said I sang it wonderfully. No, I was singing it like a stupid voice. Not in your wonderful sweet voice. No, because the radio version is like the king singers or whatever. It's like, The holly and the ivy, when they are both full grown,

the holly bears the crown. Oh, you are welcome. You are welcome. My fantasy is that someone is playing this podcast in their car and they've got it pretty loud and they just drove by somebody. And that person is left thinking that they are listening to the weirdest, worst song on earth. A girl can dream, Brandi. That's right. Where were we?

You were ruining my case. Oh, that's right. So this sentence comes down and Michael immediately spoke up. And he's like, hey, I'm not satisfied with the work my attorney has done on my case. Yes, ineffective counsel. He said, this guy met with me for like nine hours over the course of three years. He didn't do the stuff I asked him to do to prepare for this case. Wow.

Can you imagine? No. I mean, it didn't matter the judge ruled that he had not found grounds for ineffective counsel because you basically have to walk into court with your dick out to be called ineffective counsel yes all right i really don't know why I felt the need to say that. It could have gone a lot of ways. I'm actually not surprised that that's a tragedy. I know. The most shameful thing is that no one's surprised.

So at 18 years old, Michael went to a maximum security prison. Holy shit. Prison was horrible for him. He said that being that young put a target on his back. The first night he was there, someone attempted to rape him. He ended up joining a gang. He became a skinhead. He got all kinds of racist tattoos.

He says he became a skinhead not because he held those beliefs or because his mother raised him. Yeah. Michael, of course, wanted to get out of prison and he turned to his dad for help. His dad apparently did hire lawyers to help with an appeal, but years went by and Michael eventually found out that those lawyers had been let go right before a critical appeal deadline. Cool. Michael was so devastated by that that he began using heroin and he spent years addicted to heroin. Wow. Wow. Michael's sisters were always in his corner, though. And they had a complicated relationship with their dad.

Can you fucking... I can't... I can't imagine. No, because I think... You don't want it to be your dad. No, of course you don't. But you also know that's the most likely suspect. Yeah. But you also know that's the most likely suspect. Yeah. But you're...

My God, you're hoping it's not because... Of course you are. Of course you are. Because how incredibly fucked up do you have to be to, number one, be involved in this. Number two, split your son... Let your 14-year-old son take the fall for it my god okay one oh my god one of michael's sisters told this story like so they both kind of had that the same story of like you know they you don't really want to cut contact with a family member

so they kind of had tried to have a relationship parent right yeah and your brothers in prison I mean so they kind of tried to have a relationship and then at one point like the dad sent a hilarious video to one of the daughters and the video was like a husband and wife come out of their house and there's this new vehicle in the driveway with like a big bow on it and the wife's all excited and so she goes to get in it because it's like her present and then as soon as she's in it it blows up what exactly exactly and so know, she receives this video from her dad. Yeah. Who knows that, at the very least, knows that her mom died horribly.

Horribly, yeah. It's like, first of all, who thinks that's funny anyway? Yeah, that's not funny. And she was just like, okay, yeah, we're done. Yeah. And she was just like, OK, yeah, we're done. Yeah. Finally, after Michael had been in prison for about five years, he wrote a letter to the Midwest Innocence Project.

And they took the case. And once they sat down with him and talked to him about his case, he said he finally felt hopeful again. He says that really helped him stop using heroin. So the Midwest Innocence Project worked on this case for years, and eventually an additional team of attorneys got involved. And they made some pretty major discoveries. And you looked so bummed right now. Are you going to be okay? I'm good. This sucks.

I know. We can't be this in sync anymore. No, I know. In opposite directions. Okay, you be five. Baby, when the lights go out, every single word cannot express

the love and tenderness. But how does... Oh, I get it. Yeah. We're not in sync. We can't be. As that boy band, we're a different boy band now. Correct. You're five. No.

Wait, what? You're in sync and I'm five? Yeah. Fuck that. Fuck that all the way home. Give me a break, five. What? What?

What do you want? You be Backstreet Boys? Is that better? Is that better than five? I loved five. Then you be five. I'm fucking five. Mm-hmm. Wow.

You're insulted because I told you to be five? Hey, let's be talk show hosts. I'm Oprah. You're Ellen. Although Ellen's too famous. See, it doesn't even work. That doesn't work.

And I respect the hell out of Sally Jesse Raphael, so I'm not insulting her. Call me fucking Dr. Phil, Kristen. Oh, well, that'd be a compliment to you because you love Dr. Phil, Kristen. Oh, well that'd be a compliment to you because you love Dr. Phil so much. You stop it! Brandy famously has never disagreed with Dr. Phil or any of his takes. That is 100%

not true. True. True. Good thing he doesn't have a beard, am I right? Oh my gosh! Brandy is so sick of me She's gonna murder me Because it's parade day And she knows the cops won't come in anyway

Oh, Brandy, you would never kill me. I wouldn't. Unless you were like, I don't want to be five. I want to be in sync. And the only way to be in sync is to kill Kristen because she's in sync. It all makes sense. It's a great motive. Great motive.

It all makes sense. It's a great motive. Great motive. Makes about as much sense as running back into a house to take your marijuana plant out the back door. Yeah, no fucking shit. Okay, all right. Should I be growing my own marijuana, you think? You can now. I know.

It's legal. I assumed you got one of those hydroponic grow stands set up in the basement already. Have you seen those? No. The you seen those? No. The big white things? People who have them in their house, they're growing herbs on them, and you could grow herb on them. Yeah, but I only like gummies, so how do we?

That's a lot of processing you got to do to get to a gummy. Might as well just buy them. Just go buy them. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I'm glad we discussed that. I mean.

What? There's a dispensary pretty close to here. So. Yeah. You don't even have to venture that far. Yeah. There are also bra stores really close to here. Fucking go to Soma.

Brandy. I will. But this podcast has taken over my life. Yes. And I'm too fucking professional which is why i am podcasting in a sports bra right now very good go to soma they're very nice there it's not overwhelming like victoria's secret is i think i find victoria's secret very overwhelming there's just like shit everywhere yeah i don't think soma's like that. Okay. I'll have you know, I'm not looking forward to it. It's, it's.

You can't make me look forward to it. All right, fine. I bet you will feel great about your tits afterwards. I already feel great about my tits. You'll feel even greater about your tits when they are fully supported and in the proper cup bra. Proper sized cup bra, whatever. When they're cupped properly. There we go.

Yeah. I mean, that will be nice. Yeah. All right. I suppose I should get back to this case. Okay. So Midwest Innocence Project takes it on. They bring in a special set of lawyers and they do make some very important discoveries in the case.

Wow. good job. I listen. Do you? I do. Okay, first off, the main thing tying Michael to this crime was the idea that he had gasoline on his shoes and the fire in his home had been fed by gasoline. But Michael's noon defense team asked this expert, John Latini, who literally wrote the book Scientific Protocols for Fire Investigation, which is a page turner.

Did you read it? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. So they asked him to take another look at the evidence, and he didn't find any gasoline on Mike's shoes. Yeah. This is the thing that I remember the most about this case. What? That there's adhesive that is used in the production of tennis shoes that dogs could possibly alert on. Yeah. It can look like gasoline or smell like gasoline.

And the especially disturbing part is that that's something that the scientific community has known for like 25 years. But evidently the expert that the prosecution used in Michael's trial wasn't super up to speed. Yeah. And the defense didn't bother to get any fucking experts. And so no one was there to contest that information. Right. The other thing they pointed out in their filings was that there was evidence that someone else committed this crime. Okay, yes, Ed did have an alibi, but what if he had someone helping him? For example, his cousin, Johnny, the one who oopsies found what was maybe

a murder weapon. No, that was for sure not the murder weapon, Kristen. Well, it actually wasn't the murder weapon. Oh. And yet he came forward with it and said, yeah. Interesting. You know, maybe, just saying, in case they didn't have enough evidence on Michael. Yeah, exactly. Witnesses placed Johnny near the crime scene that day.

Johnny lived a few miles away from Rita. One witness said that they saw him walking away from Rita's trailer that morning wearing a wet T-shirt. Another witness said that they saw his truck parked near Rita's trailer. Some of these stories are so chilling. So this couple, Larry and Carolyn Lee, were both interviewed for 48 hours. And Larry said that he remembers hearing sirens that morning and saw Johnny walking down the railroad tracks. And Johnny walked up to him and asked if he'd heard about Rita. And Larry said no. And Johnny said that somebody had killed her.

But how the fuck would he have known that? About a week later, Carolyn says that Johnny came to their door at like 6 a.m. one morning, and he said that he and Ed were investigating Rita's murder, and he needed to know everything that she knew about Rita's death. Holy shit. He told her, we heard you were up at the store talking about it. And she was like, I don't know anything about it. And he kept pressing her. And finally she was like, okay, you need to leave. Larry and Carolyn say they wish they would have talked to investigators at the time,

but they didn't. So the sad thing, I mean, there are a lot of sad things, but Michael's new defense team tried everything they could to appeal his investigation, to appeal his conviction. Words. I wasn't going to say anything. Do they have meaning? We could cut that little part out, Kristen. No, we cannot.

Because that small, small error is proof that I am human. So they tried everything they could. Yeah. But nothing worked. They were hopeful, though. There was this new prosecutor in the county, a guy named Josh Hedgecorth, who turns out to be one of those like nut jobs who thinks that justice is more important than winning. OK. So he was actually doing what he could to say, hey, this guy was convicted on bad science.

And if I had this case in front of me today, I wouldn't move forward with it. There's not enough here. Yeah. On top of that, five of the nine jurors who were still alive from Michael's trial signed affidavits in which they doubted whether he'd received a fair trial. Worth noting, you know, they weren't all saying, oh, he's totally innocent. But some of them were like, well, there's no way he did this alone. Yeah. He did do this.

And then other people were just like, you know, after learning more, my God. Yeah. No, no, no, no, no. This isn't right. Yeah. But even that wasn't enough. That infuriated Michael's legal team. One of his lawyers, Megan Crane, said the state's prioritization of finality over fairness is premised on protecting the jury's verdict.

That goes out the window when the jurors themselves believe he is innocent and want their verdict reversed. Yeah, this whole thing had been like, oh, no, no, we can't do that to the jury. And the jurors are literally like. No, we're cool with it. Yeah, well, and what could be worse than feeling like you put a kid away. Yeah. For their entire life and you got it wrong. Yeah.

Got it wrong. Yeah. The thing that finally moved the needle was a 2021 Missouri Supreme Court ruling, which basically said, hey, we've had a great time locking up juveniles for their entire lives without parole. But maybe that's a little fucked up. Maybe we should give people a shot at parole. See, I was a little confused by this because I thought it was the Supreme Court ruling, just like what you said. Yeah, the Supreme Court ruling did come down in 2012, but I think they left it up to the states. Oh, great. Yeah.

And why take good advice? So Michael got a chance to go before the churro board, which is like a parole board. But they have churros. So in that sense, who can be mad? His lawyers were pretty nervous. So Meghan Crane said, and I mean, God, this is fucked up, but it's true. I mean, what parole boards want to hear is, I'm sorry. Yeah.

I did this and I'm sorry. But Michael was never going to say that. Yeah. He had never wavered in his innocence and he definitely wasn't going to start now. No. So he just got in front of them and, you know, told the truth. Yeah. And it worked.

Michael was released from prison on April 22nd, 2022. He was 38 years old. Friends and family, though I'm guessing not his dad, were there to celebrate his release. And he seems to be doing pretty well. He moved in with his sister, Melanie. He's been getting his prison tattoos covered up with new ones. Daffy Duck. Oh, Daffy Duck. There is, oh gosh, there's been getting his prison tattoos covered up with new ones. Just Daffy Duck. Oh, Daffy Duck.

There is, oh gosh, there's like a famous. That was a joke, by the way. I don't want to besmirch this guy's good name. No, there is like famously a tattoo artist who will do free tattoos for like felons, ex-cons, that type of thing, who want to get their racist prison tattoos altered. Yeah. Covered up. Yeah.

I don't know that that's the guy doing these tattoos. The catch is he's not very good. No. There's actually a program. I actually just watched this woman on TikTok who there's a program that you can apply to to like get actually get laser removal for tattoos. This woman on TikTok who's documenting her process. She has like her whole entire face tattoo.

Kind of like a sugar skull. Like she's got like. Yeah. And she's in the process of getting hers removed. And it's through this program that she applied for. Wow. Yeah. Holy Moses.

Mm-hmm. What's the farthest up you'd go with a tattoo? Oh, I'm not tattooing my fucking face. Yeah, would you do a neck tattoo? I would say no, but I think I might. I think you might too, yeah. I think I might, yeah. I could see that.

But yeah, that'd be... Also, I'm scared that that But yeah, that'd be... Also, I'm scared that that would hurt a lot. So... I almost fucking tapped out of my London tattoo. That spot is tendy. Well, but don't... You just have to power through, right? Well, yeah, I had to.

I was already in. Yeah. So, I mean, same... Yeah. Same deal with the neck tattoo. Once you're in, you're in. That's right. What would you get on the neck?

I mean, the flowers. I am sweating. It is a little toasty. No, I just, like, I think, like, you know, because I'm doing this whole, like, floral shoulder piece thing. Uh-huh. Like, I could see me, like, bringing a flower up onto my neck. Or, like, a bag of Miracle-Gro that is spilled over onto your shoulder. No. Brandi, that is spilled over onto your shoulder. No.

Brandy, that is funny. What? I had. Okay. What? I had some drinks the other night. Uh-huh. My favorite new cocktail.

Oh, yes. Yes, we're familiar. David and I were up late. It was Saturday night. We were decorating our house for Valentine's party the next day with David's family. And I just like saw David's tattoo that he got on our honeymoon. We got these cute little octopuses, octopi. We each got an octopus. Thank you. And his is like kind of down on his ankle. And the image of the perfect leg piece for him popped into my head.

What was it? Okay. So he keeps his little, his little, it's like a cartoony octopus is what we got. Like cute little cartoony octopus. Okay. So imagine this. That little cartoony octopus is now in a snow globe. Okay?

Okay. And then there's this giant, very detailed kraken tattooed very largely on David's leg with just like one little tentacle coming under and holding that little cutesy octopus in a snow globe. What's kraken? Okay. I am so sorry. Anyway, I think it's a genius idea. It's cracking? Okay. I am so sorry. Anyway, I think it's a genius idea. It's a great idea.

I think we should totally do it. How many drinks did it take you to come up with this idea? We're talking two? Yeah, like literally two. It's a wild night for you. That is. Two drinks. Yep.

Yep. Yep. Anyway, so yeah, Michael got his tattoos covered up. Yeah. He found work as a carpenter. And I mean, I think he's doing great. And here's all the evidence you need. Okay. Okay.

Picture it. 48 hours. They show, you know, just kind of the B-roll footage of him living his life. They showed him in a backyard petting a medium-sized black dog. Perfect. Sitting next to a hot tub. Wonderful. Yeah, he's made it. Live your life. Yeah. Is he making that paper? I mean, probably not because he's a convicted felon. Thanks for bringing that up. I'm sorry.

Can't just be happy for a man with a dog and a hot tub. I am happy for him. Not a dog and a hot tub, but you know. I'm also jealous because I... You're not rich like me. I don't have a dog or a hot tub. Oh, God, that's fucked up. I'm sorry. That's okay.

I'm very... Oh, fuck. I was just trying to brag dog or a hot tub. Oh, God, that's fucked up. I'm sorry. It's okay. I'm very, oh, fuck. I was just trying to brag about my new hot tub that is coming to my home in six to eight weeks. Did you really order a hot tub? Did I not tell you that? No! Brandon! We've been talking about this forever. You actually ordered one?

Everyone, attention, please. I have wanted a hot tub for literal years. Since the dawn of time. Yes. Years. But I've been too much of a cheap ass to do it. But I found a very small hot tub. Amazing.

Online. Just room for one. I mean, literally one of the reviews was like, it says it's for four people, but my husband and I are both tall and it's barely enough for us. I'm like, okay, that's fine. That's fine. I am so fucking excited. Yeah. Like so fucking excited.

Yeah. This is the biggest thing to ever happen to anyone. Yeah. It's the, you know, coolest things than sliced bread. OK. I thought you had something better than that. That's all I had. And I was trying to come up with something better.

That's why I was stalling. You were short circuiting a little bit there. Big things are happening. I'm so jealous. You should get one. You have dogs and now almost a hot tub. I'm sorry. I'm so jealous. You should get one. You have dogs and now almost a hot tub. I'm sorry. I'm just teasing you.

I'm fine. Thank you. You should get one. You said to me. Yeah, I want one. Why don't you get one? Because I need to. I have to move first.

You don't have to move first. I mean, you really don't want to move with a hot tub. No, what am I going to move my fucking hot tub with? No. No, it's like buying a pool table. Once you've brought a pool table into a home, you're there forever now. What's the realtor word they use that goes with the house? I can't fucking remember.

It doesn't matter. Stays with the home yeah but that's not they use a fancy word you're right you're right it conveys with the home that conveys with the home i believe is what they say i might be making that up the hot tub that gives people yeast infections stays with the home that's what they say in the listings do you know okay never mind i was gonna ask hot tub questions you don't have it yet you don't know ask me anything what kind of water treatment do those require i don't know how many jets does it have i would have to look it up. But literally, I went on Costco and I bought the smallest one they had. Yeah.

Because, you know, Norman, Norman wants everything to be perfect. You know, you've got to have, you know, the voltage. That's right. Everything needs safety, safety, safety. That's right. You know what safety does? It craps on my dreams of having a hot tub. Anyway, the point is, my life isn't great right now, but it's about to be wonderful. In right now but it's about to be wonderful

you will be sitting with a medium-sized black dog in a hot tub damn right oh it's gonna be wonderful yeah will we podcast from the hot tub? No. Absolutely we will. I just have to convince Brandy. It's not happening. They want to hear bubbles. They don't. They want to hear bubbles. But people don't want to hear bubbles.

They do. And they want us to go, it's so hot in here. Exactly. What, we're going to sit in there for two hours and 23 minutes? Maybe we are. No. Jump on in, Never Nude. Exactly.

What am I wearing for this? Whatever you want. A sweatsuit? Oh, my God. What would you wear? I mean, I... For a hot tub party for two? Typically, I just wear a bathing suit in a hot tub.

But if I was worried that somebody else might see, I might. Somebody else might see. It's a hot tub party for two, you and me, lady. And I've got snacks for us, a bowl of spaghetti each. Oh, God. I don't want to eat that in the hot tub. That's rude to come over to someone's house when they've made something for you and reject it. What's a hot tub?

What is a hot snack you would eat in a hot tub? Spaghetti with meatballs. No! You know what I'm thinking would be good in a hot tub? Hmm. An ice cream sandwich. Yeah, it'd be great. That sounds delightful.

Contrast. Contrast, my friend. Yeah, it'd be great. That just sounds delightful. Contrast. Contrast, my friend. Yeah, absolutely. No, I feel like, you know, you have a bevy. Yeah. You could do fruit. Fruit would be good. What, are you going to sit there eating grapes like you're the king of England or something?

Yeah. I want Norm to feed us grapes while we're in a hot tub. And then Dave will come and he'll fan us with one of those big, big leaves. Okay. And then we're maxed out because the area of the porch. No, they're not. Yeah, they have to sit. They can't.

They're on either side of the hot tub. They're not in the hot tub. We're on the same page. I'm just saying even then there's not room for the dogs. Yeah, I think. The dogs will be over it. They'll be peeing in their new rubber mulch that they love so much. It's true.

Yeah. Gosh, way to let people know that I'm really living my life. You are. I got rubber mulch, okay? That's right. I watched a lot of YouTube videos about it. Color doesn't fade, my friends. Oh, my friends. Oh my god.

Do you worry sometimes that I'm getting too cool for you? Yeah. I do. I do. You should have seen me at fucking Sam's Club with the rubber mulch bags. Just a lady with a bunch of rubber mulch. Yeah. And a French silk pie. Of course.

Obviously. For the Super silk pie. Of course. Obviously. For the Super Bowl party. That was literally what I got. Nine bags of mulch and a French silk pie. Amazing. Should I finish this story? You should. Okay, so he's in a backyard.

He's next to a hot tub. He's got him petting a medium-sized black dog. Obviously, he's very happy to have his freedom, but he's still a fucking convicted felon. Exactly. And, I'm sorry, the real person who did this is still out there, and he wants justice for his mom. Of course. So, the new prosecutor, Josh Hedgecorth, had filed a motion asking for Michael's conviction to be overturned. Really?

Yes. Well, that's huge in the state of Missouri, though. I know, but don't get excited. It doesn't work? Well, the Missouri Attorney General, famed douchebag Eric Schmidt, fought against it. I know. He's the guy who sued all of our schools about masks. I said our schools, like I live in Missouri.

Well, you have a stepson in Missouri. I do have a stepson who goes to a Missouri school. Yes. So I can't call them our schools. Yes. Yes. It's fucking ridiculous. It's ridiculous.

At the height of the pandemic, he was fighting against masks and like any kind of, you know, safety restrictions. Also, he is fighting against vaccines, mandatory vaccines for health care workers. Yep. Also, fuck LGBTQ rights against vaccines, mandatory vaccines for health care workers. Yep. Also, fuck LGBTQ rights. Am I right? Yeah, did you hear about the new bill that's trying to be passed? What? I literally just heard about it today.

Oh my God, what? That if a student tells their teacher that they believe they might be trans, that the teacher is now required to report that to their parents. No. No. No. Yes, ma'am. Hey, you know how hard it is to be trans? Let's make it even harder. Yep.

Yeah. Teachers are required to tell a parent within 24 hours if a student comes out as trans or the teacher could lose their license. That is heartless. Yeah. That's a group of kids who are the most vulnerable for being kicked out of their homes. They're the most vulnerable for harming themselves. Yep.

And maybe they find an adult they trust and you're going to ruin that. Yep. Great. Okay. Well, that was exciting. Sorry. God, I fucking hate that. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Sorry. God, I fucking hate that. Yeah.

Oh, yeah. Okay, so Eric Schmidt fought against that. Cool. Fucking Eric Schmidt. So things don't look good for Michael's exoneration. Josh Hedgecourt lost his bid for re-election, and according to 48 Hours, the Missouri Supreme Court has temporarily halted the effort to overturn Michael's conviction. So that probably just means like forever.

That's I mean, it said temporarily. Temporarily, real loosely there, I'm guessing. But hopefully once this episode gets out. This is going to be the thing. And people will first they'll think about the hot tub and all the other important things we've discussed on this episode. They haven't taken away from the story at all. In the least. And, yeah.

Michael said, talking about the state, not only did they victimize me, but they further victimized my mother. Yeah. So he's a guy who wants justice for his mom and justice for himself i fucking hope he gets it yeah me too yeah also his sisters are awesome yeah anyway so that's my story about a fire fuck these were heavy fucking cases today but you know what it's your fault because you knew i was doing this one you know i did know you were doing it but i did not put the fire connection like

yeah for whatever reason i didn't make that connection when i picked my case oh what are you doing there i I accidentally scraped a pimple. It's fine. It's totally fine. Did you know, fun fact, I am 37. I did know that. Yeah, you did know that. Did I pass the test?

Is that everything? No. Last night, I had to put on five pimple patches on myself. What's a pimple patch? Oh, my God. You see, some people, Brandy, they have pimples. And so you put a little patch on them. You sleep in them.

Oh, and then you wake up and the pimple's gone? patch on them you sleep in them oh and then you wake up and the pimple is gone well in a perfect world maybe in the real world they're just a little smaller i just put like a little little yeah okay we don't care we don't care what you do okay because you sleep in your makeup and you have beautiful skin thank you That somehow wasn't a compliment. Shall we take some questions from our Discord? Oh, wait. First, we'll probably at some point insert an ad here. Doodaloo! And we're back from the ad.

Doodaloo! Was it a good ad did you like it yeah let's take some questions from our discord to get in the discord all you have to do is join our patreon at the five dollar level or higher and then you can get in here you can shitty chat the day away with other listeners of

this very podcast and then on days we record we ask questions and some or we ask for questions actually we don't ask questions I we ask four questions actually we don't ask questions I'll ask four questions and then the people of the discord ask them and we answer a few

I don't think you're prepared for this okay Michael the snow hoe wants to know have you ever thought how much time would be saved if Kristen just recorded from the toilet sir you would save so much editing time Ever thought how much time would be saved if Kristen just recorded from the toilet? Sir! You would save so much editing time.

We already hear her stomach, so it would just be an efficiency thing. This is so rude and so hateful. Why is it always the prettiest one who's mocked the most? You ever thought about that? Seems like you've never thought about that. I have. I have thought about it. Oh, Sarah Love Stars wants to know, are you good at picking out fake people or manipulators?

Can you tell right away if you can trust or not trust a person? If so, how long have you had this sense? Oh, Brandy's already nodding. What? Can you tell right away if you can trust or not trust a person? If so, how long have you had this sense? Oh, Brandy's already nodding. What can you tell? Are you easily hoodwinked? I think I'm pretty good, but also I have an 11-year marriage that would say otherwise. I'm sorry for laughing so hard at that. I mean, that is true.

You were nodding like, yes, yes, I'm incredibly gifted in this area. I'll wait. I'll wait. Yep, yep, yep. No, I don't feel like I'm particularly good at it. Is this basically like saying, hey, come scam us? Yeah, come scam us. I mean, we're great. We're the best in the biz.

That's right. We'll spot you coming a mile away. Yeah. Ooh, ClarkAdventures94 wants to know, Kristen, any good book recommendations? I'm in a romance kick lately, and I'm looking for some new reads. You read anything good lately? You got any wrecks? Okay.

I don't read a ton of romance but just thinking back to romance books that I have read and enjoyed immensely. The Hating Game. That's a hot ass book. Steamy ass book right there. The Hating Game.

You think it's about hate. It's not. It's about hot ass book. Oh. Steamy ass book right there. The Hating Game. You think it's about hate. It's not. It's not. It's about fucking. Basically. And then Red, White, and Royal Blue. God, I love that book. That's a good one.

Okay. Excellent recommendations. You don't know. You have no idea. I could have just recommended the two shittiest books ever written. It's very possible. I didn't. Don't worry.

Oh. Oh. I find this question deeply disturbing. What? Down Bitch wants to know, I asked my class this last week, would you rather have a pet dog with a human face or a dog with human hands? Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

Yuck. Boy, I hate everything about that question. I think I got to go hands. Ew. Do we get to see the face before we make a decision? I don't think so. Yeah, because I like a dog face to, like, you know, nuzzle on me and stuff. I don't want a dog human face doing that.

I think I got to go human hands, dog face doing that. I think I gotta go human hands dog face. I think that's less traumatizing. You know what I'm gonna say? You're going the opposite? I'm gonna say neither. Oh you don't want that dog. I don't want the dog. Someone else can have that dog. That's such a cop out. I know but I'm not playing this game. Sean, I'm so fucking jealous. I just got tickets

for the 2024 Olympics. Which events would you most want to watch? Every fucking one of them. I want to see them all. Brandi's not exaggerating. She does even the lame ones. Are you okay? No, I love them all. Are you okay?

No, I'm just so jealous. I thought you were thinking about Dr. Phil or something. Okay. Calm down. You calm down. Where are the 2024 Olympics? I'm surprised you don't know. I mean, I probably do. It's just not coming to me right now.

They're in paris fuck you could go to the louver afterward that'd be so cool okay here's what i think you got to do okay you have to see the swimming the swimming just blows my mind those people move in the water so fucking fast okay you got to make sure you see the swimming um gymnastics yeah exactly no gymnastics is number one gymnastics for sure track and field the running specifically like the dashes holy shit because then also you get to see my favorite thing, which is the dongs just flapping around while they're running. No, it's not

sexual at all. It's not sexual in any way. It is literally like, how do you run like that? How is that not super distracting? How do you do a 40-yard dash that fast when your dongs just flapping around? Brandy.

If someone said, you know what I love about watching Brandy run? Watching her genitals flop around. And they're like, oh, no, no, no, don't worry. It's not sexual. Would you be, like, reassured? No. What? Yeah.

What? They're not undressing me with their eyes. It's just like a pure, just like thinking about the distraction of it. And like, I'm honestly amazed. By the dongs. Yeah. And the way they can just power through with that thing just flopping around. Well, people go through all kinds of things in life, don't they?

That's right. Anyway, I'm super jealous, shown. Hmm. Sherilander wants to know, what's the sneakiest thing you've done to the other and never fessed up about? You got anything? No. I mess with you all the time. Obviously, but I had an answer until you

said i'd never fessed up about oh well what is it just fucking episode 68 of this podcast oh yeah yeah go listen to that episode that's right if you want to see bullying in its truest form. Oh my god. Carrie Carrie Boberry wants to know, how do you deal with a co-worker who drives you bonkers? I have one who constantly makes mistakes, doesn't care that she does, and is racist as fuck. She is also the boss's wife, so I have to deal with her no matter what that sucks yeah I have no advice that's terrible I do what do you got my favorite thing to do when someone says when a white person says something racist here's what you do what do you mean by that that's good and you don't even have to call him out you can just be like that seems really impolite and that will bother them so much so much just make it uncomfortable for them to say that stuff around you i don't know maybe it wouldn't work, but it's a thing I enjoy doing.

Ooh, Kristen. Professional grave robber wants to know, do you secretly have a favorite pet? Oh. No, but. Oh, oh. What? No, but Dott, oh. What? No, but Dottie is my favorite. You asshole.

I was going to say, but Dottie is more bonded to me. Okay? I am absolutely not playing favorites. I'm just saying who likes... Yeah, Dottie's her favorite. Okay. I am absolutely not playing favorites. I'm just saying who likes. Yeah, Dottie's her favorite. It's fine because Kit is Norm's favorite. I still remember the day you figured that out. And it brought you so much joy to know that.

Okay, I'm not saying we both have favorites. Just that the dogs have favorites. And you guys both love it. I mean, it's true because we're both jealous. Yes. Jealous, needy people. And, like, when Kit comes over to get affection from me, Dottie will come over and knock her out of the way.

And I'm always like, Dottie. Ooh, Calling in Horny wants to know, Kristen, how's your ass doing after your iced coffee and buffalo wings combo mishap? Oh, whatever do you mean? Yeah, what happened last week after we stopped recording? Was everything okay? Look, Brandy, I'm the kind of woman who has a hot tub coming to her house in six to eight weeks. So obviously I don't have any troubles.

Okay. Okay. I mean, you might have major issues, but not me. So everything was fine? You didn't blow up the bathroom like the second I left your house? How incredibly rude of you. Okay, here's what happened. After you left my home.

Uh-huh. Your humble abode. Which at this point does not have a hot tub. So, you know, things are still a little rough. Yeah. Norman was like, hey, let's go get the dogs from daycare. And I was like, I cannot. I simply cannot.

Uh-huh. So there you go. I will not tell anymore because I'm a very classy woman. Okay. Here's what I will share as well. Is that while we were recording, my stomach started cramping. Not like rumbling like yours did,

but like, and I think I talked about like a general tightening of the stomach. Yeah, like you were doing some crunches against your will. That's right. And so I got home hoping that that would transfer

into a satisfying bathroom visit. And that never happened. Never happened. And you remain unsatisfied to this day. Well, no. So Norman was like, also like, yeah, not feeling great, not feeling great. I think maybe some things were happening. And he was telling me this like the next morning.

And then he promptly went and ate the leftovers from that meal. Great. So do we feel sorry for him? No, we do not. No. Okay. All right. That was a high stakes question.

All right. Doppenditz wants to know, do you believe there is a wrong way to load the dishwasher? I mean, sure. Yeah, there's got to be a wrong way, right? Yeah. But I'm not one of these people who, like, if someone else has loaded my dishwasher for me, then that's the right way. Yes. Great.

Thank you. Here's the deal. This is exactly what the right way. Yes. Great. Thank you. Here's the deal. This is exactly what I thought of. Okay. Okay. I needed a dish that had recently been washed in the dishwasher. David is the one who had loaded the dishwasher. David's like always the one who loads the dishwasher.

Like he does the dishes. So let me get this straight. He does the laundry. He usually does the dishes and you let me get this straight. He does the laundry. He usually does the dishes and you fall asleep in your makeup. So I am. You're living the hot tub. I am living the fucking dream.

We're all very happy for you and not at all jealous. He pulled out this pan that I needed, and I was immediately annoyed. Why? Because this pan had been through the dishwasher, but there was still a bit of a film on the bottom of it, a remnant of some kind. And so initially I huffed. At him? Okay, I just huffed in general. And I took it to the sink. Just listen to the story, Kristen! Okay, I just huffed in general. And I took it to the sink. Just listen to the story, Kristen!

Okay, I'm immediately on David's side. I huffed and I took it to the sink and I said, I guess I'll have to wash this. And I washed it and David was like, I'm really sorry. And I was like, no, I was an asshole. I apologize. Like, why? You did the dishes. Why am I annoyed at you?

Like, I'm so sorry. And so, yeah, like, I was annoyed that it wasn't like he didn't rinse it properly before he put it in the dishwasher. What a fucking asshole. Yes. And I apologized to him. Apologize to the listeners, too. Why? Yeah, what a fucking asshole what's that podcast that only covers terrible people people this is monsters what i'm gonna be on this is monsters

do we do they do like a write-in segment where i can tell them that story no yeah anyway so the answer is um yeah there's probably a wrong way to do it. But if somebody else is doing it, I'm not going to complain because I would be an asshole and I have been an asshole. And then I apologized for it. Wow. What a horrific story. For David. And for everyone to listen to. What a horrific story. For David.

And for everyone to listen to. Ooh. Annie Hooters wants to know, if you are accused of a crime, which lawyer, dead or alive, would you hire to defend you? It would depend on what crime I have been accused of. I'm just hiring the guy from Jungle Law. Just because I'm hoping he's going to bring that talking monkey. Brandi, you're going to be in prison for the rest of your life. And the only claim you'll have is, well, I met the guy from Jungle Law. And the talking monkey.

You don't think that's actually his pet? You think that was just for the commercial? I don't think it's his pet. I think it's his pet. I think it's more like a romantic thing. Stop it! That was a disgusting thing to say. Who are you hiring?

It's a, okay, white collar crime. Embezzlement. Hmm. I've been embezzling from this podcast. From this very podcast. Which I have done. I've been embezzling from this podcast. From this very podcast. Which I have done. I did. Remember that one time I accidentally embezzled? You confessed immediately.

Still embezzling. It's not. Yes, it is. I don't think it is. I very briefly embezzled when I accidentally used the company credit card to buy dinner. To purchase a meal. Yep. Bad meal. Yeah. Yep. Badass.

Yeah. You're a real criminal. Who are you hiring? Oh gosh. Who did Casey Anthony hire? I'm just kidding. I mean look if he can get her off then I'm not doing. What the fuck is his name? Baez.

What's his first name? I don't know. Juan? I don't actually want him as my attorney. I wonder if Clarence Darrow would... That's who you want. Put on a clean shirt. No, it'll be wrinkled. It'll have like a little bit of soup on it, but...

Yeah. Yeah. What the hell was Casey Anthony's attorney's name? I don't know. Jose Baez. Juan Baez was a basketball player. Well, I was never going to correct you on that.

I make it a point to pay very little attention to sports. Okay. Okay, whatever. What? Everyone, you know what we're going to do now? We're going to read your, well, first we're doing Supreme Court inductions. That's correct. Hello, if you'd like to be inducted in this podcast, sign up for our Patreon and support the show.

That's right. Brandi's not wearing pants right now because she can't afford them, but if you sign up for our Patreon, maybe we can get this woman to cover her coo. Kristen could only afford a two-person hot tub. Hey, technically, it says on the website it's a four-person.

The reviews say, hey, these better be four really small people. Listen, obviously, you don't have to worry about me. I'm embezzling from the podcast. And that solves the mystery of how I'm getting my hot tub. We are continuing to read your names and your first celebrity crushes. What if I get my hot tub and it becomes my whole personality?

Like Hawaiian shirts all the time. You always have an umbrella in your drink. In my coffee. Yeah. You start wearing a flower behind your ear. Yeah. Alright.

I'm just a lot more chill yeah anxiety poof gone just one giant though goodbye oh yeah i would be quite prune like yeah but would you notice because like i'd be taking all my calls and all my visitors in the hot tub and anyone who are you wait okay i was gonna say people who are visiting you are they invited in the hot tub. And anyone who visited me. Wait, okay, I was going to say, people who are visiting you, are they invited into the tub, or do they have to sit next to you? Well, they're invited in the tub. Okay.

Hey, dish yourself up some spaghetti and meatballs. Hop in. I don't want to eat the spaghetti and meatballs. We've got garlic bread in the oven. Meatballs are a real mistake because you've got to cut those up and it's just going to right off into the hot tub. And that is why when you're in my hot tub eating your spaghetti and meatballs, you have to just fork it and eat it like a lollipop. And I am prepared. I can lick a lollipop.

Okay. Don I am prepared. I can lick a lollipop. Okay. Don't you stop. Please don't bring sexual activity into my hot tub. Right. Unless you're doing it to me. Okay.

If anyone's having fun in my hot tub, it's gonna be me. It's gonna be me. Limbs the rules. Wonderful. I've been looking up towel racks. to be me. Limbs the rules. Wonderful. I've been looking up towel racks. Uh-huh.

Outdoor towel racks? Yeah. Okay. What do you, is there, are there lots of options? Not really, but today. Do you need, I think you need to be researching step stools. I feel like that's the most important part of the hot tub. You're tall, though, so you might not need one. You might just be able to just...

Yeah, but when you come over... Saddle right on over that thing. And I think we've established that you're definitely getting in. For sure getting in. For sure. You're going to want... I'm going to want a step stool. And I'm going to want it to be sturdy and non-slip.

Oh, darn. I was going to lube it right up for you. Okay, we can move on now. Okay, great. All right. Names and first celebrity crushes. Joanna. Oh, shit.

I'm on the wrong episode. Okay. Do you think this is Joanna or Johanna? There is an H there, but sometimes people are funny about H's, like herbs. Fun fact, there's an H there. Johanna. Lee Majors from Six Million Dollar Man.

Aubrey. What? Aubrey? My favorite cookie is Mrs. Otto Friedrichson's sugar cookie recipe from an old Norwegian country church cookbook. We made them with almond flavor and frosting every year for the holidays, and to me there is no better cookie. Also

I don't know Mrs. Otto's first name and I hate it too. What? Aubrey! Aubrey! Aubrey. You know what? We are going to assume that what you just told us is that Mrs. Otto Friedrichson was your celebrity crush. Jodi Lynn. Johnny Resnick.

From the Goo Goo Dolls. Jamie Shapiro. Jesse McCartney. Gracie. AJ from the Backstreet Boys because he was the bad one Damn right he was Facial hair Wait, is he the one who wore the fingerless gloves?

I think he was Oh my god You know when you say that he doesn't seem like a badass Maddie Nick Jonas. Rudy Tutti Fresh and Fruity. Adam Ant.

Dana. She wants to be Dana L. I'm sorry. Dana L. Can you read? Obviously not. Victor Garber. He is 39 years older than me.

Sorry, Kristen. Okay, well. I don't have a clue who Victor Garber is. I think this is like the first one that I have like just not even the faintest idea. Maybe he's someone from a history book. Oh, no. We know this guy. He's the shitty lawyer boss in Legally Blonde.

Oh, yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Okay. Puts his hand on Elle's thigh and gives a little squeeze. I do remember. Mm-hmm. I remember covering that case on this very podcast. That's right.

Courtney. Avril Lavigne. Oh, the tie. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Absolutely.

I realize that was several years ago. Kelly. Angelina J was several years ago. Kelly. Angelina Jolie. Hannah S. Orlando Bloom. Christy B. Mark Wahlberg. Oh, have you listened to the episode on Mark Wahlberg?

That's a bonus episode. Grace H. Gordo from Lizzie McGuire. Jordan H. Jonathan Taylor Thomas. I was worried wezie McGuire. Jordan H. Jonathan Taylor Thomas. I was worried we wouldn't hear him this episode. Melissa Adderd. Rick Astley.

Oh, you know, because he's never gonna give you up. He's never gonna let you down. I don't mean to make everyone jealous, including you, Melissa. But I saw him in concerts. You did? Yeah. Oh, was this like the 90s mixtape concert thing you went to?

Yeah, he was in the New Kids on the Block concert. Yeah. Looks great. Wonderful. Beautiful. Excellent. Smelled terrible. You didn't smell it.

I don't know. Okay, that's rude to say. Katie B. Dylan O'Brien in Teen Wolf. Welcome to the Supreme Court! Wah, wah, wah, wah, wah! Oh, oh, you really gave it all you got this time. Well, I really like this group of inductees.

I've never liked any other. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha! On that note, thank you, everyone everyone for all of your support. We appreciate it so much, especially these 16 people who got inducted on this episode. If you're looking for other ways to support us, please find us on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Patreon. Please remember to subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen. And then head on over to Apple Podcasts and leave us a five-star rating and review.

Then be sure to join us next week. When we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned! And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. I got my info from the 48 Hours episode, The Case Against Michael Polite,

a piece from Sarafinski for St. Louis On The Air Reporting, and reporting from The Daily Journal. I got my info from ChillingCrimes.com, an article article for oxygen.com, CBS News, and the Court Record. For a full list of our sources, visit lgtcpodcast.com. Any errors are, of course, ours, but please don't take our word for it. Go read their stuff.