Let's Go To Court! - 278: Insurance Fraud

Episode Date: November 22, 2023

Melvin Eugene Hanson was dead. The 46-year-old had apparently passed away in his doctor’s office after he’d called to complain about chest pain. Right away, investigators were suspicious. Why had Melvin’s doctor encouraged him to come into the office? Why not tell him to go to the emergency room? Dr. Richard Boggs was quick to provide an answer. He said that Melvin didn’t trust other doctors. But investigators couldn’t shake the feeling that something was off. And now for a note about our process. For this episode, Brandi copy and pasted from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “Blood, Sweats, and Tears” episode The Real Murders of Los Angeles “Mistaken for Dead” episode Forensic Files “After Doctor Claims a Man Died in His Office, Cops Uncover a Murder and $1 Million Insurance Scam” by Joe Dziemianowicz, oxygen.com “Murder-for-insurance scam nearly eluded authorities” by The Associated Press, Lancaster Eagle Gazette “Prosecutors Again Seek Death Sentence for Doctor” by James Quinn, The Los Angeles Times “Doctor gets life for murder scheme” by The Associated Press, North County Times “Killer in Fraud Case Draws Life Sentence : Courts: No chance of parole for businessman Melvin Hanson, who murdered bookkeeper in plan to fake his own death.” By Nancy Hill-Holtzman, The Los Angeles Times “Jurors Split Verdict in Insurance Murder Case” by Nicholas Riccardi and Ann W. O’Neill, The Los Angeles Times “Notorious Swindler Recounts Notorious ‘Just Sweats’ Case, Including His Mysterious Vanishing Act” by 10tv.com, WBNS 10 News “Neurosurgeon Turns Into a Killer to Finance His Life” by Sabana Grande, medium.com “Fraud, Murder, Bike Shorts: A Just Sweats Timeline” by Rebecca Reisner, forensicfilesnow.com “’Just Sweats' fraudster seeks second chance after 2 decades in prison” by Staff Writer, The Columbus Dispatch “People v. Hanson” casemine.com YOU’RE STILL READING? My, my, my, you skeezy scunch! You must be hungry for more! We’d offer you some sausage brunch, but that gets messy. So how about you head over to our Patreon instead? (patreon.com/lgtcpodcast). At the $5 level, you’ll get 52+ full length bonus episodes, plus access to our 90’s style chat room!  

Are you a true crime junkie who's run out of episodes? Are you possibly too nosy when it comes to your friends' dating lives? Then The Dating Detectives podcast is about to be your next obsession. Hosted by private investigator Mackenzie Foltz and me, comedian Hannah Anderson, every Monday The Dating Detectives brings survivors to the mic to share their unbelievable yet true stories of love gone wrong. From cheaters and liars to con men and scam artists, these cases will leave your jaw on the floor.

So listen to The Dating Detectives now on Spotify because true crime has never been this close to the heart. One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Pond. Let's go to court.

On this episode, I'll be talking about insurance fraud. Now hold on just a minute. What? It seems like you're in my territory. I am. Unless someone gets murdered and then you're in your own territory. It's kind of like a toe in my territory. It is.

It's kind of like a Kristen case and a Brandy case had a little, I did it, the little baby. She's doing disgusting hand gestures, everyone. Okay. Stuff that I have not seen since middle school. It's like, yeah, it's like a Kristen case and a Brandy case had a baby. The way I did the gesture initially, no babies would have been made. Okay. So I don't know if that helps you out.

Picture what happened. As I said, we are working on getting video in the studio. And maybe you might. Maybe you don't want it. Maybe you don't. Maybe you're like, you know what? I'm good. I don't want to know what's happening with those hands. Okay, so

Brandy Case and Kristen Case have a baby. Okay, so here's what happens. Okay, you want to call it right off the bat? A con man murders his wife. Okay. Also, he's cheating. Okay, maybe. Definitely. Definitely. We'll see. We will.

When you tell me that exact story starting now. No. Oh, wait, wait. We got all kinds of stuff to talk about. Okay, everybody calm down. And by that, I mean me. First of all, should we plug our Patreon? Yeah.

Yeah. We got all kinds of stuff over there. So much stuff. Too many bonus episodes, I say. We've got kinds of stuff over there. So much stuff. Too many bonus episodes, I say. We've got 53 bonus episodes. 52. 53. Well, we recorded 53, but I bet 53 comes out after this episode because of our editing schedule.

Oh, my God. Everybody, boy, you're really seeing how the sausage is made. We can't cut that. No. People need to know. People need to hear it. People got to hear it. You know what?

Someone was just about to click on the Patreon and then they're like, wait, wait. Wait, there's only 52 bonus episodes here. $5 and I only get 52 meaty boy episodes? I think not. I think I'll hold out until they put the 53rd out there. Third one up there. Yeah. Yeah.

You get all kinds of stuff. Bonus episodes. Zoom calls with us. My God, what could be better? I don't know. Ad-free episodes. That's there, too. Discounts on merch.

Also there. Get out of here. My goodness. So much stuff. But you know what's arguably even better? What? A live show. Oh, I don't know what you're talking about.

Did we maybe have a call today and maybe talk some stuff out with some people who know how to do some stuff. And maybe you should listen for like a big announcement. Please get less specific. You're too specific. Yeah, everybody. We are currently working on our first standalone live show. Which is going to be in Kansas City. We're so excited.

More details to come. Soon. Okay. This is when we put the pressure Kansas City. We're so excited. More details to come. Soon. Okay. This is when we put the pressure on you. Yeah, we are. The pressure is on you folks. Absolutely. Okay, here comes a guilt trip from Grandma.

Lay it on. Lay it on thick, Kristen. Well, here's the thing, hon. Okay, so they're telling us that we can do a live show in Kansas City. And, you know, we're just so excited. We want to do more. But you know what they said to us? They said, nah, we'll see how this live show in Kansas City goes.

We'll see if people actually show up. And then maybe you can do live shows in other parts of the country and the world. So it's all on you. It's all on you. It's all on you to make our Kansas City show a success so that we can come other places, too. Yeah, and, you know, none of this lands on us. No, it's all on you. And we shit our pants on stage.

Somehow that's also your fault, I think. Did I do the guilt trip well? I think you did it good. Yeah. All right, let us know if you're feeling guilty, feeling spendy. All right. Guilty and spendy. That's where we want you. Guilty and spendy. That's where we want you.

Guilty and spendy. More details to come. Okay, the next thing on the agenda here. We've got more? Yeah, one more thing. Okay. We're off next week. Oh, yeah.

So, yeah, so we are taking, this year we're doing it slightly differently than we've done it in the past. I don't know. Nobody cares. No, you always want to take them behind the scenes. No, I want everybody to know all of the info. We are taking off the week of Christmas. Not Christmas. My God.

See, you want to give them the info. I can't even do it. We're taking Arbor Day off this year. No, we're taking the week of Thanksgiving off from recording. Which Brandi has taught us is dendrophilia. Anyway. She taught us that because she is one. It means that this episode will come out the week of Thanksgiving, and then there will be no episode the week after that, just so everybody understands.

Okay. Okay. Glad that was explained. 27 people will message us and ask where the episode is that next week. I don't care. Everyone, Brandy feels responsible to respond to every single message. It's the customer service that's ingrained in me. I've worked my whole career since my very first job in customer service. Yeah.

Yeah. I have not. And I think it shows, frankly. Where I'm like, you'll figure it out, my friend. And personally think we should do an episode. Yeah, probably. Uh-huh. Let's think it through. Sorry.

Okay. Let's talk it through live on the pod. No. Oh. Okay. Why don't you tell us about an insurance fraud? Okay. How about I do just that?

Shout out to an episode of an oxygen show. I don't think. No, I have watched once an Oxygen show. I don't think. No, I have watched once before. I almost said I didn't think I'd watched it before. I have. I know I've done one. Yeah. Yeah.

Don't lie. OK, here we go. Called The Real Murders of Los Angeles. Oh, yeah. All right. Yes. So this happens in Los Angeles. Thank you for clarifying.

You're welcome. Also to an episode of Forensic Files. Oh, OK. Love it. to an episode of Forensic Files oh okay love it this particular episode of Forensic Files had a lot of weird

b-roll in it I think you better tell us all about it we can discuss it later in the case very good David watched it with me

but he was only like half paying attention and he looked up at one point and he's like what is this? Excellent. Excellent. All right.

Here we go. It was 7 a.m. on April 16th, 1988, when the Los Angeles Police Department received a call from a doctor. His name was Dr. Richard Boggs, and he said one of his regular patients had come to his office that day for some chest pains that he'd done an exam and that that patient had now died. OK. Not at the office. At the office. Died at the office. At the office while he was examining him. Oh.

Yes. So Dr. Boggs was a very well-respected doctor in the area. He was a Harvard-educated neurosurgeon. He actually founded one of the first HMOs in California. HMOs, we call them. Well, I don't know. Sorry, that was a very stupid joke. Well, I don't know exactly what that means.

All of the sources mention it as a huge accomplishment. So I think it's safe to say it's a good thing. Yeah, we applaud HMOs. Yeah. Yeah. I also don't know. I don't know what it means. Home Monitoring Organization.

No, I think it's like a network of doctors. I don't really know. Okay. Casey. Casey. Casey knows. Casey will tell us. Also, she did text us, as we predicted, and said the reason we can't keep it straight

is because safety deposit box and safe deposit box are interchangeable. Everyone, this is a callback to our previous episode, which Brandi assumes you are listening to in order. That's right. With no breaks. That's correct. And you'll be just beside yourself in a couple weeks when we take a week off. That's right. With no breaks. That's correct. And you'll be just beside yourself in a couple of weeks when we take a week off. That's right. Did you notice how Casey texted us that fun fact? And then I said, so you're saying we're

geniuses and she never responded. Isn't that weird? Yeah. I assume she was hit by a bus because that's the only logical explanation for her not responding in the affirmative. Yeah. All right. Anyway, HMOs. Okay. We all know what they are. Because that's the only logical explanation for her not responding in the affirmative. All right. Sure. Anyway, HMOs. Okay. We all know what they are.

Yeah, absolutely. Don't tell us. We already know. So Dr. Boggs said he suspected that this patient had suffered a heart attack. That's what he told the police. By 7.15, paramedics were at his office. He led them into the room where his patient was and he said that he had done like an

echocardiogram on this patient an ECG if you will that he then left the room to go get something and when he'd come back he found the man on the floor. Oh wow. He said he spent 30 minutes trying to resuscitate him.

He was performing CPR. I don't know why I messed that up just now. C-E-R. It's a different type. Not nearly as effective. No. But that had been unsuccessful. Dr. Boggs told the detectives or the first responders.

I don't know if these were detectives yet by this point, the people at the scene, that the patient was Melvin Eugene Hansen. He went by the name Gene. He was 46 years old and he was a patient that morning at like three o'clock in the morning and said he was suffering from chest pains. Dr. Boggs had said that he left like a voice or not a voicemail because it's 1988, a message on his answering machine that he had checked the messages about 5 a.m., heard the message, called Gene Hansen, said, meet me at the office. I'll check you out. And that's exactly what had happened.

He'd come to the doctor's office shortly after that. He'd done the ECG on him and then left the room. And boom, he came back and he was just dead on the floor. You want to say some words, Kristen? I do, but I don't want to be an asshole. Okay. But it's my nature. Sure.

So I'm fighting nature and my nurture, I think. Yeah. But like, I don't know. I feel like three in the morning, don't you go to the ER? I guess he didn't feel like it was that severe. Well, nope. So that's the exact same thing that the police, like the first responders asked him. They're like, why didn't you tell him to go to the emergency room?

Well, in my experience from calling the doctor's office, when you get to that point where you leave a message, they're like, hey. If this is an emergency, go to the hospital. Right. Yes. So Dr. Boggs had an answer for that. All right. So Dr. Boggs had an answer for that. All right.

He said that Gene Hansen was just kind of a different guy and that he only trusted Richard, Dr. Boggs. He didn't trust anybody else. He didn't want to go to the hospital. He wanted Dr. Boggs to examine him. And he's like, he's been my patient. And so I just, you know. He felt like. Maybe if he got him into the office, maybe then he could convince him to go to the hospital if it was serious. Okay.

I do think I'm with you there. Like, if you feel like even if I tell this guy go to the ER, he's not going to the ER. Yes. So the best thing is to tell him to come in and, you know. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. That's exactly what Dr. Boggs says.

All right. I'm on board. I'm no longer being an ass. But there were some concerns from the police who responded to that scene. They thought that Dr. Boggs' story seemed like a little odd. Okay. They thought, first of all, it was really weird that as a medical professional, he wouldn't tell this guy to go to the hospital. Even with that explanation, they thought it was odd. And then even Dr. Boggs himself, he looked a little too put together to have just performed

CPR for 30 minutes. One of the paramedics noted specifically, he's like, I've done CPR in the field before. You get sweaty. Your clothes get rumpled. Like it's it's a lot of effort. Right. To perform CPR. What about CER? I don't know about CER.

And so he thought that Dr. Boggs looked like a little bit too put together to have performed CPR for 30 minutes. Describe the man. How good was he looking? I mean, he looked nice. Well, according to the forensic files reenactment, he had a white button up on it. It was crisp. He was not sweaty, not flushed. All right.

Yeah. Also, the rigor mortis had already set in on Gene Hansen's body. Oh. And so it seemed like maybe more time had body. Oh. And so they it seemed like maybe more time had passed. Okay. Well now that is way more

interesting to me than Okay. So they pressed him about that a little bit. Dr. Boggs and Dr. Boggs says I I tried to call 911

like an hour ago. What do you mean you tried? I tried and I got a busy signal. Can that happen? So they talk about this on the Oxygen program. Yeah. And they're like, okay, it can happen, especially

in a big city. So this is technically in Glendale, which is part of the greater Los Angeles area. Okay. So you're saying that the name of the show is a lie? Well, it didn't happen exactly in Los Angeles, I guess. It happened in Glendale. I guess we've got a nasty letter to write. I could just add it to my list of letters to write to Oxygen.

No, that's right. I still haven't written about that Snapped episode. I'm so pissed about it. We all knew you wouldn't. Okay, so. So he said he called once, got a busy signal, performed CPR, called again, got a busy signal again. He says he placed three different calls where he got a busy signal. No.

So, yeah. So they talk about this on the show and they're like, okay, yes, it can happen in a big city, but at six o'clock in the morning? Right. No. Also, okay, is the doctor the only one in this office? Yes, because it's like a Saturday. This is a before hours visit.

This isn't even a day that it's open. He specifically came to the office for this patient. Hmm. Well, that's even weirder to me. I agree. Okay. I agree. Yep.

So they declare Gene Hansen, the patient, dead at the scene. And then they do like a cursory examination of the office according to forensic files. This seems kind of odd to me, but I guess it's standard practice in a death investigation. Okay. And they found some unusual things. How unusual were they? What did I say? Inusual. Inusual. Oh, they found some unusual things. How unusual were they? What did I say? Unusual.

Unusual. Oh, they found some unusual things. I would say that was an unusual way of pronouncing it. Okay, so what'd they find? Sex toys. No, shut up. Mm-hmm. Legitimately.

They showed a blurred picture of a dildo in a drawer right next to a blood pressure cuff. Well, that seems improper. Mm-hmm. Separate drawers. Yes. Or at least a drawer divider. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. So they're like, all right, that seems kind of weird. I don't know. Apparently there were multiple sex toys in multiple drawers just all throughout this office. Name them all. I don't know. They only said it like that. Oh, okay.

And then they only showed us the one blurred dildo next to the blood pressure cuff. All right. That seemed to be an, it was an actual photo from the office. They didn't, like, reenact it? I don't think so. Okay, okay. All right. So the police did kind of note this as, like, an odd thing, but then they're like. Well, yeah. Not kind so. Okay. All right. So the police did kind of note this as like an odd thing, but then they're like.

Well, yeah. Not kind of. Definitely. That's the weirdest thing ever. All right. We'll just wait and see what the coroner says before we make any big deal about this. All right. You disagree.

There are so many things. All right. You disagree. There are so many things. Mm-hmm. And I, but I feel like maybe I'm getting caught on the wrong thing. All right. On that dildo, getting caught on the dildo in the drawer with the blood pressure cap. Here's what I'm getting caught on.

Mm-hmm. You said multiple sex toys in multiple drawers. That's what Forensic Files tells me. Okay, right. I understand that you're not fantasizing this up in your head. No, I'm not. But I also was not in the office. I did not see these myself. Okay, right. I understand that you're not fantasizing this up in your head. No, I'm not, but I also was not in the office. I did not see these myself. Right, right. Which would have been horrifying

because you would have been like 10 at the time. In 1988, I was 2. Everyone, Brandy's a lot older than me. Anyhow, no, I'm thinking okay, if you have sex toys in your doctor's office, which is fucking weird, and why, but thinking, okay, if you have sex toys in your doctor's office, which is fucking weird and why, but if you do, if you must, all right, let's say you must, don't you put them all in one drawer and you have a lock on that drawer?

Yeah, it's like a secret drawer. And you put like a boring book on top of the sex toys? You would think so. So that no one wants to pick up that book? I really did not expect to spend this much top of the sex toys. You would think so. So that no one wants to pick up that book. I really did not expect to spend this much time on the sex toys. Do you even know me? I thought it would be like a little thing that would pique your interest. Too piqued.

Too piqued. What book do you think is boring enough? A top that, oh. Bridge to Terabithia. Birds of America. Oh no. See, I think people wouldia. Birds of America. Oh, no. See, I think people would flip through Birds of America. They probably would.

Bridge to Terabithia. Mm-mm. What's that about? That's right. It was one that I tried to read. Oh, okay. You didn't like it. It was a DNF for you?

That's right. Yeah. Also, Hot Take, All the Light We Cannot See or whatever the fuck. Everybody loved that one. I don't know what that is. I've never even heard of that. All right. No.

Okay. You didn't like that one either. DNF. Wait, what was that other one that you didn't? Wasn't there like a really long one that you like? Oh, God. The Goldfinch, I think it's called. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's a million pages long. And I was interested. Uh-huh. For a while. For 300 pages and then when you realize there were 300 more to go you're like, fuck right off. And just so we're clear, I usually, especially if I'm pretty far in a book, I will

finish it right up. You power through, yeah. I swear to you, I couldn't have been 30 pages from the end of it. And you're like, I can't, I couldn't possibly do it. This was years ago, but my memory was that the main character was you were like, I can't, I couldn't possibly do it. This was years ago, but my memory was that the main character was like, Ooh,

should I die? Should I live? I'm like, I don't give a fuck. Great. So yeah. Okay. All right.

But I wouldn't put that book on top. Cause you know, it held my interest in the beginning. You got to have boring from the start. Yeah. So that's what you can do with all your sex toys that you have hidden throughout the salon. Okay. I don't have any sex toys at the salon that I'm aware of anyway. Somebody else has hidden sex toys around the salon.

Okay. What? She's thinking, who do I work with who would hide sex toys? That's actually not what I was thinking. I was thinking that my salon does have a tanning side to it. Do you think people bring in sex toys and use them in the tanning beds? Why? Because it's nice and hot?

It's warm. You get like 12 minutes in there. Well, that's all you need. Gross. Anyway, moving right along. Okay, so Gene Hansen has died in Dr. Boggs' office. And so the police are there. They've found all the sex toys by this point.

And now they're, like, processing Gene Hansen's body so that it goes to the coroner's office. So they're, you know, taking things out of his pocket to catalog as evidence. And they pull out his wallet. But it's like a little – it's just like one of those little card wallets. Oh, yeah, yeah. One of the little card holder deals. And it has, it doesn't have a driver's license in it. Okay.

But it has credit cards in them that would have the name Melvin Eugene Hansen on them, which is Dr. Boggs' patient's name. He goes by Gene. No. Good choice. Yeah. Right? Absolutely. Your choices are Melvin, Eugene.

Yeah, I mean, Mel is okay. Mel's good. Yeah. He? Absolutely. Your choices are Melvin, Eugene. Yeah, I mean, Mel is okay. Mel's good. Yeah. He chose Gene. Yeah, you should never do Melvin. Never the full Melvin. No photo ID, but he did have his birth certificate in that little card thing. Well, that's really fucking weird.

Yeah, it's super fucking weird, right? Yeah. Yeah. And also in LA, like, everyone drives, right? That's kind of the rule. Like, you have to drive. Alright. So the police are like, that's really weird that his

birth certificate isn't in his wallet. But again, they just note it, that it seems kind of odd, along with those sex toys that they found in the drawers. But they're like, let's just wait and see what the coroner says. See if this is any reason to be suspicious. I don't see how these two things could be related at all, but I am waiting.

And so Gene Hansen's body is sent off to the coroner's office where Craig R. Harvey performed the autopsy, I believe. Well, I have it in my notes. Well, he's retired. It says that he's the retired medical examiner, and he's the guy that they interviewed on the show. But now I'm wondering if he's actually the guy who performed the autopsy or if he's just some other dude. I think he performed the autopsy.

Boy, you know what? We might have to write an angry letter to you about your coverage here. So the coroner looks over the body. And initially what he looks for are injection sites to see if this man was drugged in any way, anything like that. Because 46 years old. 46, very young to die of some kind of heart attack. Sure.

But he doesn't find anything. Okay. He did notice the advanced state of rigor mortis. Oh, boy. Please continue those stories. I'm not going to talk about that. So he noted that and he was like, that seems kind of odd to me. But the rest of it looked pretty normal uh the

toxicology report came back and melvin hansen or sorry gene hansen had a blood alcohol level of like 0.29 it's almost four times the legal limit and this is at like six in the morning the yeah like he came to the office at five in the morning. Huh. Yeah. And so it's like, all right, like that means that he would have been like at that point. That's almost blackout drunk. So they were like partying in the office and something happened.

Oh, you think? I know. Okay. I'm feeling pretty confident. Okay. The other thing that the coroner found during the autopsy that he didn't love was that the liver temperature seemed pretty low. Seemed like the time of death would maybe not quite match up with what the doctor had told him based on the liver temperature. But Gene Hansen had a diseased liver, so that can affect that. And they asked Dr. Boggs about this, and he said that made sense to him.

Gene Hansen, heavy drinker, had had a very long history of being a heavy drinker. That's why he had heart problems at such a young age as well. Okay. And so the coroner noted these things that he thought were kind of inconsistent, but the doctor was able to explain those things. And the coroner ultimately determined that the cause of death was focal myocarditis, which is basically like a nonspecific heart condition. Yeah, it's like when the HMO gets wild on you. Yeah, that's exactly it. So that matched what Dr. Boggs said.

Okay, well. What? Seems like kind of a blanket I don't know thing. It is kind of, yeah. Yeah. So that condition, specific focal myocarditis,

has similar symptoms to a heart attack. All right. So, died of natural causes. Okay. Check.

The police were still, like, you know, kind of wanted to make, cross their T's and dot their I's. Me too. So they asked

Dr. Boggs if he had any proof of that message that Gene Hansen left him. And so Dr. Boggs took the police to his apartment,

played the message for them. And it was right there. Three o'clock call. Do all of his patients have his personal ID like this? I don't know. Doesn't that seem weird? Yeah, but I guess this is before cell phones. This is before cell phones and stuff.

So probably. All right. Yeah. Or maybe you even get like, you'd call the office and you get routed through a, like a call forwarding system or something. All right. Yeah. Or maybe you even get like you'd call the office and you get routed through a like a call forwarding system or something. All right. Yeah. So the voicemail is there.

Voice message. It's on the little tiny tape inside inside the answering machine. Thank you. You're welcome. Because I can't forget it's 1988. Uh huh. And yeah. That was 1988. Uh-huh. And, yeah. That was kind of that.

Declared natural causes. Yeah. All buttoned up. The authorities reached out to Gene Hansen's emergency contact, who was listed as John Hawkins. He lived in Columbus, Ohio, and he flew to L.A. immediately. When he got there, he said that he was Gene Hansen's business partner. So he told them that Gene had grown up in Florida. He'd moved to California and he'd worked in like these upscale department stores. And he and Gene had met in 1981 when John Hawkins was 18 and Jean Hansen was like 38, 40.

No, thank you. Somewhere around there. No. 37. Don't approve. When they first met, they had briefly been romantically involved. That's a nice face. Thank you.

Thank you. Some might call it beautiful. But ultimately, their relationship, romantic relationship, had been short-lived. Jean decided not to fuck a teenager? Well, I doubt that.

I bet John decided he didn't want to fuck a 40-year-old. Who does, really? Well, when you're 18, I mean. I'm just teasing. But then they became really good friends. Okay. And eventually they started a business together.

They launched Just Sweats. Did they sell Just Sweats? They sure do. All right. It was a workout clothing store. They did sell more than Just Sweats, but all workout clothing. One ad that I saw for them had. It's a great name.

It is. Spandex bike shorts, $4.99. Yeah. Okay. So this was their version of a popular L.A. clothing store called Pure Sweat. Oh, it's a little knocky knock knock off. A little knock off. Okay.

That's right. So, okay. So they came up with this idea together in L.A. And then they went out to Columbus, Ohio. That's where John Hawkins was from. Okay. And so Gene Hansen loved Columbus, Ohio. He loved the scene there.

It's kind of a college town. And he thought, if we could bring pure sweat from L.A. to Ohio, like there is a huge market for this here. We're talking the 1980s. We're talking like everybody is wearing workout clothes like all the time. It's so different from today. It's exactly the same as today. And so they start this company with their flagship store in Columbus, Ohio, and it does really well. Within two years, they've got 22 locations.

Wow. And they're making like $10 million a year in revenue. 22 locations. In how long? In two years. That's impossible. It's too much. Things were really good.

Like it was just moving and shaking and popping. So one thing that really worked for them is John Hawkins was extremely good looking, very handsome, had like this wavy hair, and he starred in all of their commercials. Oh, that's a real risk. I saw some of the commercials on the Forensic Files episode, and it's just like a bunch of hot people like playing volleyball on the beach and stuff. And all of a sudden you're like, I need some bike shorts. Absolutely. Was he good? Do I need a yellow tank and periwinkle shorts? I sure do. I would drop dead if you came over here in a yellow

tank. You know, I'm not having that reaction to the commercial, but the people were. Oh, I see. I see. Well, how was his acting in these commercials? You know, the stuff... Or was he just acting hot? Yeah, the stuff I saw, there was no dialogue. It was just like people smiling and looking hot. Yeah. So I think that's probably all he did. Alright. Yeah, the stuff I saw, there was no dialogue. It was just like people smiling and looking hot. Yeah.

So I think that's probably all he did. Alright. Yeah. So things are going really good but in late 1987 Gene Hansen told everybody at the company that he was not doing well. His health

was failing. He had a life threatening heart condition. Oh. Yeah. Okay. And so he was going to kind of maybe take a step back from the business a little bit. Well, yeah, I want to take a step back just listening to it. Two years, you've got 22 locations.

22 locations. Hell no. Yeah. And then now it's April of 1988, and Gene Hansen died at his doctor's office. Yeah. So Hawkins is in L.A. now. You know, he goes to the morgue. He identifies the body.

He says, yes, that's my friend and business partner, partner, partner, Gene Hansen. Everyone, we recorded two episodes this week. Brandi's not fully herself. And so he said, you know, he was there to follow Gene Hansen's final wishes. He wanted the body cremated and then he wanted to spread his ashes at sea. And so within days, that's exactly what happened. Okay. and so within days that's exactly what happened okay i gotta say as you know you love a mystery to me this is the most like a natural death i've ever heard you tell yeah i mean this really this sounds pretty normal to me the only thing i think is weird is sex toys in a doctor's office

and frankly that's not in my business. I know. I really like that fact, too. It's why I included it. It really doesn't have anything to do with the case. Are we sure they weren't actual medical devices? I don't think so. No. Okay. All right. I think they were actual medical devices. They wouldn't have felt the need to blur them out on forensic files. All right.

That's fair. Yeah. That's fair. Mm-hmm. So, I mean, this all happens very quickly. Yeah. The death happens, the autopsy happens, and then less than 24 hours after the autopsy is completed, John Hawkins is in L.A., identifies the body, and Gene Hansen is cremated, and

his ashes are spread at sea. And then that's that. John Hawkins heads back to Ohio. End of story. Except it's not the end of the story. Okay. You're right. Because in July, so a few months go by.

Mm-hmm. In July, the Glendale police got a call from an insurance adjuster. And they're like, hi, we just wanted to make you aware that Gene Hansen had a $1 million life insurance policy. And the sole beneficiary of that policy is John Hawkins, his business partner. And they're like, this could be nothing. Yeah. But we just wanted to let you know.

Yeah. And the police are like, that is interesting. And so it's unclear to me if like an investigation was started immediately at that point or if this is mostly the work of the insurance company. But what I do know is that Gene Hansen had gotten a life insurance policy worth a million dollars maybe like two months before he died. Oh, wow. Mm-hmm. Actually, he'd actually gotten two other smaller policies. He was insured for $1.5 million in total. Wow.

And once that autopsy report and everything came through to the insurance company, they looked over everything and Farmers Insurance paid out the $1 million payment to John Hawkins. It was shortly after they made that payout. It seems like that payout was made with no issues. And then there's like a process where like once a payout has been done, another person within the insurance company like dots all the I's and crosses all the T's before filing that claim away. And when that person was double checking all of the stuff,

they noticed something odd in the file. It was a dildo. No, it was not a dildo. So they noticed that there's a picture of the driver's license of the person who has the insurance policy. So there's Gene Hansen's photo ID is in this file. Okay. Great.

It seemed close enough to the photo that they had on file for that person, I guess. Oh, okay. But then, and I don't know how closely they are checking these files, but this insurance clerk noticed, and this is nuts to me. Okay. In California, driver's license at this time did not only just have a picture of you on them. They also had your fingerprint on them.

Oh. Well, with the coroner's report came a full set of fingerprints. This insurance clerk noticed that the fingerprint on the driver's license did not seem to match any of the fingerprints from the coroner's report. OK, well, first of all, that's fascinating. Second of all, I would say, you know, you're like, I don't know how closely they're looking. I bet when it comes to like a million dollar payout, I bet they do a little extra checking. Yeah.

So I believe it was at this time that that insurance company made the call to the Glendale police. That's really weird. Yeah. Yeah. I am so— I bet they wished they had made that discovery before they paid the million dollars. Sure. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Just, you know, in hindsight. You're rubbing it in their faces now. Okay. With that discrepancy, the police then were like, okay, yeah, we should probably look into that. But even then, I'm like, what kind of foul play? I'm. Okay, so at that point.

Okay, here's the deal. This is when I wish I was Detective Brandy. I'm. Okay. So at that point. Okay. Here's the deal. This is when I wish I was Detective Brandy. I know. It goes so much further because then the insurance clerk notices this. And then she's like, okay, I'm going to try and find. I assume it's a woman. I guess I don't actually know. Okay.

She's like, I'm going to find a picture of Gene Hansen. And so she starts digging and digging and digging and finally finds like a DMV photo of Gene Hansen. And it doesn't match the photo that's included with the coroner's report of the person who was found dead in Dr. Boggs office. What? They are similar. But not different. Like they're similar, but clearly not the same person. Similar, but not different.

We can't be any more clear than that. Jesus. Similar, but clearly not the same person. Similar, but not different. We can't be any more clear than that. What is happening? What is happening? Well, I think that Gene and John are in cahoots here.

They've figured out a way to get a million dollars. But like, who's the guy who? And like, I guess the doctor's involved, too. Is he? Yeah, he is. Okay. They kill some guy, and then they split the money three ways, and then they cremate his body so that no one can really do any... What the hell is happening? It's a real mystery.

Yeah, so why don't you unravel it? Okay, I will. Okay, so I believe that, like, these pieces of information... How are my detective skills? They're? Okay. I will. Okay. So I believe that like these pieces of information. How are my detective skills? They're pretty good. All right. They're pretty good. Would you add me to your force?

Yeah, absolutely. Or do I need more time? No. No. I think I could mold you. We could have like a ghost moment where we're doing pottery together and Unchained Melody plays in the background. That's a lot more sexual than I thought it would be. You molding me into your detective form.

But all right. That's my bad. So I believe these bits of information came over, came to the police over a couple of week period of time. So then finally they get, you know, they find the photo and they're like, OK, the photo of Gene Hansen does not match the body that was found in Dr. Boggs office. So now the police are like, all right, fine, let's go fucking talk to Dr. Boggs. Right. Let's figure out whose fingerprints these are that we took at the scene that day from the dead body.

Right. At first, they're like, is this a case of mistaken identity? Is this a paperwork fuck up? Like, what is this? So initially, they go to Dr. Boggs and they're like, what's happening here? These fingerprints do not match Gene Hansen. And Dr. Boggs is like, I have no idea what you're talking about. Like, this man, I know him as Gene Hansen.

I have known him for several years. He's been coming to my office for, I think, three or more years now. I've seen him several times. I know him as Gene Hansen. I don't know what to tell you that his fingerprints don't match up. This is Gene Hansen as I know him. Okay. And they're like, okay.

And he's like, do I need to remind you that I started in HMO? And also that I went to fucking Harvard. Ever heard of it? Yeah. But also people at the police at this time are like, wait, he's a neurosurgeon. Why was this guy coming to him for ECGs? So I had wondered that initially, too. I just assumed maybe they had such a close friendship. And if this guy's afraid of going to a traditional, like he's not going to go to an ER, he's not going to go to anybody else. Like

maybe you just go to the person you trust, even if it's outside of their specialty. Yeah, I think that's kind of how they thought at first. Sure. So a task force is put together to work with the state of California's insurance fraud investigators. And they are literally hand going through missing persons reports, Through missing persons reports. Trying to find anybody who matches the description of the man who died in Dr. Boggs' office. They were hand going? Hand going through. Yeah.

They were hand going through. It wasn't on a computer was my point, Kristen. It was 1988, everyone. Hundreds of files they're going through by hand. Hand going through. Yes. They're going through by hand. Hand going through. Yes.

And then they decide maybe they should look into Dr. Boggs a little bit just to be sure that he's telling the truth. Yeah, yeah. And they found out that Dr. Boggs had been having a bit of a time recently. What does that mean? Well, so he had lived in this big mansion in Glendale. It was like this big Tudor home. It was beautiful. I saw a picture of it. I bet it was. I love a Tudor home. He drove a Rolls Royce. God damn. Well, you know,

neuroscience. Yeah. Neuroscientist. Neuroscientist. This is how you know I'm not in the field. He had like a beautiful wife, a bunch of kids. Yeah, okay. Had.

Oh. He'd recently gone through a divorce. Now he's driving a Camry. I don't know what he was driving. Living in a split level. They never said. He was living in an apartment at this time. Okay, yeah.

Yeah, he'd gone through a divorce. Mm-hmm. Oh, my God. Ma'am. You know what? You've been letting me slide by for a while here. Have you been making noises this whole time? Everyone, I don't mean to alarm you.

It's been a while since this has happened on the pod. My stomach is talking. Oh, no. It's talking. It's participating in this episode, whether I want it to or not. It has things to say. If those things travel further south, we might have to take a little break. Yeah, sure.

Maybe to do my nails or something. I don't know. Anyhow, continue. Okay, so they find out that he's recently gone through a divorce, and that divorce was a result of him coming out as gay. Oh, OK. Yeah. So he had this. OK.

The Oxygen show says he made it public that he was homosexual. I don't think that that's exactly what happened. He shouted it from the roof. Right. Exactly. Yeah, he was just out. He discovered later in life that he was gay. He went through a divorce.

What? OK. They also said that she took all of his money in the divorce. It's not exactly how that works, but I hate it. Anyway. Okay. Okay. So as a result.

Yeah, I mean, if you get a divorce and you have a bunch of kids, it goes to. Like, I think this is a very common thing. Correct. So, yes. Okay. Yes. The divorce settlement was quite large. He had to, yes, give his wife some assets.

She was an evil bitch and took all his money. And he was publicly gay in the most public way. He got on the horn, told damn near everybody. Yeah. Okay, that's, did I sum it up? Yeah, that's exactly, he had a bullhorn. He was just walking around L.A. telling everybody he's gay. No, he says, excuse me, everyone, I am publicly gay.

I'm publicly homosexual. It's actually, I'm publicly homosexual. But following his divorce, he had kind of gotten into a rough scene. This is where the B-roll comes in. Oh, okay. So he starts going to a lot of clubs. Yeah. And then he gets kind of in the S&M scene.

Okay. Yeah. So there was a lot of B-roll of just like one guy dressed in leather hitting another guy dressed in leather with a whip. For a very extended amount of time. You're saying they had one scene and they're like

you know, we should probably get some more scenes, some different stuff. No. No. It's just these two actors. Yeah. In like kind of a seedy looking club. Sure. Both dressed in leather. One's whipping the other one. Alright. Yeah. In like kind of a seedy looking club. Sure. Both dressed in leather. One's whipping the other one. All right. Yeah.

Okay. So that tells you what Dr. Boggs was into, I guess. I guess so. Yeah. But, all right. Okay. What, do you have a question? No, continue.

All right. Continue. So along with that, he was trying to make friends, meet new people, you know, in his new scene. But he got a little loose with his prescription pad, started writing people prescriptions when he hadn't actually examined them. Yeah. As a result, his. Singular for everyone. No, I don't think so.

I doubt it. And then his work kind of started slipping a little bit. He was met with a couple of malpractice lawsuits. Oh, shit. Yeah. Yeah. Not good stuff. Yeah.

On the Forensic Files episode, I believe it is, they talk about at one point when they're investigating Dr. Boggs, they go to his apartment again and they're searching his apartment now. And when they get to the bathroom, they discovered a bathtub that was full, not of water. Of what? Bills. Oh, really? And bills piled up in the bathtub. Oh, I thought you meant dollar bills. No.

And I was kind of excited. No. Like a bathtub full of bills. A bathtub full of overdue bills. Yeah. Huh. Yeah. A bathtub full of bills. Of overdue bills.

Yeah. Huh. Yeah. You know, I will admit, I am bad about any kind of paperwork or anything. Yeah. It has never occurred to me. Occurred to you to throw them in the bathtub? All right.

Huh. So, like, okay, this guy needed cash. Sure. So maybe he's in on this scam. Yeah, he probably is. During that initial investigation, like at his office the day of the death, Dr. Boggs had supplied the investigators or police on the scene, whoever, with the medical records for Gene Hansen. They went back like three years. He'd given them this whole file.

And in there, there were several ECGs that had been done over that three-year period. They were all dated with different dates. But now— It was all with the same color ink. Well, now, upon further investigation, they lined those ECG reports up because they print out like a little thing from the machine. Oh, okay. They were all one long ECG that he had torn up into different pieces and dated with different dates.

And you call yourself a Harvard man. Yeah. It was a fraudulent medical report. Oh, this sucks. Yep. This really sucks. So at this time, the investigators take the coroner's report and they give it to a new coroner because they're like, fuck that other guy, which isn't really his fault. He is interviewed on the.

Did he seem real embarrassed? He did. He did because he was like, you know, all I was going off of was what the doctor said and what the identifying cards he had on him that day. I can't say I blame this coroner either. Clearly this was someone else's body. Yes, exactly. How was he to know that? Right, exactly.

So, yes, he did seem kind of embarrassed on the Oxygen show, but I don't think this is on him. I agree. Yeah. So they take the coroner's report. They have another coroner take a look at it, specifically the pictures of the body. And this coroner noticed a couple things that the original coroner either hadn't noticed or hadn't noted.

Yeah. There were signs on the fingertips. They were discolored. And that is a common, apparently, sign of suffocation. Oh. I didn't know that. I didn't know it either. So the original coroner did talk about how he looked for petechial hemorrhaging, like all of the signs of strangulation, and he saw none of it. And so then this coroner's like, well, there's discoloration in the fingertips.

Of course, they can't go back and do another autopsy because this body's been cremated. You can't turn back time. You cannot. I've always said that. That's right. And so all they have to go on are these pictures. Could they find their way through the pictures? What?

Are you singing Cher to me? You know, you could be a little more appreciative. So at this point, this coroner determines that the cause of death was suffocation. It was not. OK, but can you really go off something? I mean, to me, that's like, all right, so that's one of the signs. But don't you look for other signs as well? Exactly. Like this seems like, OK, there is a sign that this happened. But can we say that's for sure what happened?

This coroner does. He says the deaths ruled suffocation. Okay. Murder. Right. Yeah. So then they're like, okay, maybe we should be looking into Jess Sweats as well, see what's going on there. And it turns out.

Yeah, there's no way. Well, see what's going on there. And it turns out. Yeah. There's no way. That Just Sweats was like on the brink of disaster. Yeah, it's just bullshit. 22 new stores in two years? I don't think so. Even though that is a great name.

Hugely in debt. Yeah. And like the business was about like days from crumbling. So they're like, we better go talk to John Hawkins. This is a fucking mess. Yeah. Except John Hawkins was now nowhere to be found. Of course he was.

Yeah. No one had seen him. So his employees at the store are just like. So they talk about this a little bit and they had like a board. Yeah. Yeah. And they were like, we are doing our this a little bit and they had like a board. Yeah. Yeah. And they were like, we are doing our best to just keep the stores open at this point. We have no idea where anyone is.

We have no idea what's going on. All of the money's gone. Good. Like the money had been siphoned from the company. I'm sure. Bank accounts were empty. Yeah, I bet so. I bet when he disappeared, all of a sudden the cash did, too. So they're like, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck.

We have an unidentified murder victim here. Yeah. We have a shady doctor, two shady workout clothing salesmen. And one of them we thought was dead. We have no idea where he is. Yeah. And the other one has gone on the run. Well, aren't those two on the run together?

I mean, come on. Oh, do you think they are? I mean, yeah, right? Why wouldn't they be? Well, that seems dangerous to be together. Two heads are better than one, Brandy. All right. All right, we'll see. What are you? Well, okay,. All right. All right. We'll see.

What are you? Well, OK. I see what you're saying. There's wisdom in splitting up. I think you can't be seen together. Well, yeah. You and I couldn't because you would be unwilling to change your physical appearance. Oh, absolutely.

Yeah. You're trying to make me shave my head. I mean, I would definitely say we should get Midwest mom cuts. Yeah, this is not. That's not the look for me. When you're on the run, when you've got the million, it's not about looking cute, okay? All right. I'd give you the Carol Brady.

No, I wouldn't. No, fuck you. No, here's the thing. I wouldn't give you the Carol Brady because then that stands out. No, you'd give me the I need to speak to the manager haircut. Yeah, I mean, you'd get a bob. I'm sorry. These are the rules when we go on the run.

All right, fine. When you break into the Mimi's Cafe and you steal a million dollars worth of corn chowder, that's just... Okay. Okay. Finally, in September of 1988, police got their first break in this case when they identified the victim. How'd they do that? By going by hand through those missing person reports. Okay.

Let me guess. They took advantage of a gay man who had been kicked out of his house by his family, right? You're very close, yes. So it turns out that the victim was 32-year-old Ellis Henry Green. He had lived in the Glendale area, and his aunt had reported him missing about five months earlier. So she reported him missing in April. Yeah. Yeah. So they call up the aunt. They have her come in. And all they have for her to identify is the corner's pictures.

And she looks at them and she says, yeah, that's my nephew. They were able to confirm that by fingerprints. Ellis Green had served in the military. And so the military had his fingerprints on file. And they were able to confirm that those were the same from the autopsy. Yeah. Ellis Green had grown up in Ohio.

We have a lot of Ohio connections. No connection, just by happenstance. And he'd moved to L.A. in 1985 with dreams of opening a bakery. Oh. Mm-hmm. He was working as a bookkeeper, like trying to save up money to make that dream happen. Yeah. And he got kind of into the club scene, started drinking pretty heavily.

And it was kind of at that time that his family lost contact with him. And then his aunt reported him missing. That time that his family lost contact with him and then his aunt reported him missing. Detectives learned that sometime in April of 1988, Ellis had told his friends that he'd met two men in a bar who said they were interested in investing in his bakery. Oh. Yep. How awful. Yeah. A friend thought this was around April 15th. Yeah. Which is just days before he was found. How nice. He's got hopes and dreams. So take advantage of that. April 15th would have been one day before he was found dead in Dr. Boggs' office.

before he was found dead in Dr. Boggs' office. Yeah. He was just this guy who moved to L.A. because he was gay and thought he would fit in better. And he wanted to, yeah, start a bakery. And he was preyed upon. It's interesting. So at one point a paramedic— This is why you don't treat groups of people like shit.

Mm-hmm. Yep. Yeah, you get isolated. You get ostracized. And ostriches. And everyone gets an ostrich. Which no one wants! No, it seems cool at first, but then you're like, wait, where do I buy ostrich food?

Where do I keep this thing? And it's a mess. It is. And have you seen the size of ostrich shit? No, I thought you were going to mention the eggs, which are quite big. But I imagine the shit's pretty big, too. I would assume so. I don't actually know.

It's got a real big caboose. Yes, that's right. Okay. Glad we covered that. So at this point, they know who the victim is. They know that some kind of fraud scheme has been played out here. They still don't know exactly what has happened. And the fucking insurance company is like, we want our million dollars back.

I bet you do, bitch. But where are they? Right. So they hire this private detective named dino tripotis oh wow yeah he's a cool character he's on the oxygen show yeah and they're like he's like on the job he's gonna track down hawkins they think that's the move you track down john hawkins he's gonna lead them to the real gene hansen and they're gonna get to the bottom of this. Okay. So on September 17th, 1988, Dino Tripodis went and talked to John Hawkins' roommate, Eric DeSando. And the roommate is like, yep, John's a big old sketchy scam artist.

Okay. Always been that way. And he said that just before this all kind of came to light that this was some kind of scheme, he said that after John had claimed the insurance money, he knew John had claimed the insurance money. Then he came to his roommate, Eric, and he said, I'm going to have to leave town. I got to get out of here. And he was really emotional about it. And the roommate's like, what is going on? Yeah.

And he's like, I can't tell you much. But just know that, like, tomorrow I'm getting my money and I'm getting out of here. And Gene is still alive. Wow. Okay. That was it. Like, then John Hawkins disappeared. Yeah.

But they had no idea where he was. You've mentioned that. Yeah. And I'm quite annoyed by that. When are they going to find him? So if is Domino's involved? No, there's no Domino's. Damn it.

You're going to like how they find him, though. I promise you. Everyone, for anyone who's confused by that, we have told a couple stories on this podcast now where people go on the run and they are caught when they try to order specifically a Domino's pizza. So, tuck that under your hat for when you go on the run. Should we break for an ad? Do-loo! Are you a true crime junkie who's run out of episodes? Are you possibly too nosy when it comes to your friends dating lives? Then the Dating Detectives podcast is about to be your

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Gene Hansen faked his death. He tells the police this. He's like, I'm getting to the bottom of this. The theory now was that obviously Gene Hansen and John Hawkins had worked together to pull off a monster insurance scheme. Yeah, we're already there. And that they had murdered Ellis Green. Yeah. Along the way.

And that the doctor had helped. Mm-hmm. Which is shocking because he set up an HMO, which we all know and love. Yeah. Along the way. And that the doctor had helped. Mm-hmm. Which is shocking because he set up an HMO, which we all know and love. Yeah. So this Dino Tripodis learns from the roommate, from John Hawkins' roommate, that he knew the plan. The roommate knew the plan? Yes. Well, dude, now you're in trouble.

I don't know that he was ever charged, but he tells them that the whole plan was that they found this guy, Dr. Boggs, and he was going to help them out. He was going to find a body from a morgue. He was going to either buy it like a cadaver from a school or buy a cadaver from a morgue, which is a practice, I guess, in the medical field. Sure, sure. And that he needed to specifically find one that bore a resemblance to Gene Hansen. There was no plan initially for any kind of murder to take place. But unfortunately. Well, yeah, you can't.

You can't buy a cadaver. The plan did not work out. Yeah. Yeah. So this is what the roommate tells the private investigator. Yeah, so this is what the roommate tells the private investigator. But still, they don't know where they are until January 9th, 1989. When a man going by the name Wolfgang von Snowden.

No. Yes. No. No. Wolfgang von Snowden lands at DFW Airport. That's a made up name, right? I mean, that's ridiculous. No, it's a very real name for a very real man. Wait, you're going undercover trying to be kind of have a low profile and you chose the name Wolfgang von Snowden?

What? You got a problem with it? First of all, I love the name. Yeah. But it's a name that screams. It doesn't whisper. And I'm sorry, sirs. When you're on the run, you gotta whisper.

You gotta whisper. Yeah. So you're saying I can't go by this name when we're on the run. Absolutely not. Get back to the drawing board. So, okay. So this man, Wolfgang Von Snowden, it's January of 1989. He lands at the airport at DFW.

Okay. And he's like off. It's a flight from Acapulco. Okay. So he has to go through customs. He gets off the plane. He's acting super fucking weird going through customs. He seems nervous as hell.

He's like clutching a backpack. He's wearing a very bad toupee. He's like clutching a backpack. He's wearing a very bad toupee. He's got obvious scars from cosmetic surgery, like recent cosmetic procedures. They think he's a drug mule. So they pull him aside. Customs pulls him aside.

They search him. He's got $16,000 in cash on him and like 20 different IDs. Why didn't he stay in Acapulco? Well, maybe he was there getting medical procedures and now he was coming back to the United States to offload some property in Florida because he was running out of money. Well, this is why you stick to a budget. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay.

He also, so he has, he has like 20 different driver's license on him. One of them happens to belong to Ellis Green. Are you kidding me? Which doesn't mean anything to the people at DFW. Of course not. But it's sketchy as hell. Absolutely.

And he has an overdue library book on how to change your identity. No. Yes. No. Yes. It's on him. Yes. He is carrying 20 IDs.

20 IDs, $16,000 in cash, and a library book about how to change your identity. An overdue library book. And just to be clear, he could have been going by Ellis, but instead he was going by Wolfgang Von Snowden. Okay. So they take Wolfgang into custody that day. And then he had a court hearing the next day. And at that court hearing, he admitted that he was not Wolfgang von Snowden.

You're kidding. He was, in fact, Melvin Eugene Hansen. Did the book have a section on like, OK, so you've been caught. I don't know. At that hearing, he was asked if he could post his $5 million bond. And he said,

if they let me die a few more times, I could. Okay, well, that would be funny if you hadn't actually murdered someone. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. All right. So they've got him in custody. Hang on. What kind of plastic surgery did he get? Okay. He got a procedure done to his eyes.

Okay. That he thought would change his appearance. And he also got a hair transplant. But he was still very bald. I saw a shot of him without the tube. Didn't quite take. I think maybe it was just too soon. I think that's what he was getting done bald. I saw a shot of him without the tube. Didn't quite take. I think maybe it was just too soon. I think that's what he was getting done.

Oh, OK. So it was just too soon to see the results. Yeah, that might have been more of a vanity project than anything. Well, they phrased it like he was trying to change his appearance. But I think you might be right. Well, you could argue that when I put on makeup every day. She was trying to disguise herself. OK, what did he have done to his eyeballs? I don't know.

Okay. I don't know. So now they've got Gene Hansen in custody, and they're working to connect Gene Hansen and John Hawkins and Dr. Boggs together. And so they're going through phone logs, and they actually tracked down a phone call from Dr. Boggs to Gene Hansen within like six minutes of when he said the call came in from the person who was Gene Hansen. Yeah, yeah. It was not really Gene Hansen.

We're with you, yeah. That Gene Hansen and Dr. Richard Boggs worked together to lure Ellis Green to Dr. Boggs' office to murder him for this insurance fraud plan. Yeah. So Dr. Boggs was arrested and he was charged with murder, conspiracy, insurance fraud, and then some other, like, you know, little charges around that insurance fraud. They keep Gene Hansen in custody, but they hold off on his trial because they want to try him with John Hawkins. Sure. So he's just over here sitting in custody. Meanwhile, Dr. Boggs' trial began in May of 1990. We still don't know where John Hawkins is.

Who do they think committed the actual murder? They believe that Gene Hansen and Richard Boggs committed the murder together. They can't say specifically which one. Right. They believe he was suffocated, probably smothered to death in the office. And they can't say which one for sure did it. But it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if they work together.

Yes. Okay. Which is what they're going to argue. So at Richard Boggs' trial, the prosecutors asserted that Gene Hansen and Richard Boggs brought an intoxicated Ellis Green to Dr. Boggs' office and murdered him. Yeah. I had forgotten about the alcohol in his system. Yeah, his – yeah. So –

Yeah, they probably played it off like, we're going to have a really good time tonight. Shots, shots, shots. Yeah. Oh, my gosh, you don't look like you're feeling well. Mm-hmm. Here, let's take you. Yep. Ugh.

Yep. I didn't include this in my notes, so I'm going to say it in here. I know we're at the trial already, but along the way, they actually found another man who had been attacked by Dr. Boggs at one point. They believe it was maybe an attempt at a first victim. Shut up. So Dr. Boggs had met this man at a gay bar. They'd had some drinks. And then somehow they ended up back at Dr. Boggs' office. I don't know. Maybe that's why the sex toys were in his office. Maybe that was like where he was taking people. It definitely is.

But once they got there, he said that Dr. Boggs used a stun gun on him. And then he was able to fight him off and he left. And so there are some charges for that lumped in at this trial as well. OK, you know what? I'm feeling bad now. Why? Now I feel like I know why there were sex toys in the office. OK.

He's going through this divorce. Yeah. He's openly gay. It's the 80s. People are awful. Yeah. It's the 80s. People are awful.

Yeah. So I would assume your biggest fear in that situation is that you lose any kind of custody agreement with your children. So, yeah, the fear of someone discovering sex toys in your apartment is too great. Yep. Okay. I take it back. Although I still think you put them all in one drawer. In a secret drawer together. Yes.

And you put Goldfinch on top of it. The last 30 pages specifically, just rip them out and scatter them across the dildos. Okay. Also, don't ostrich people. Yeah. Yes. The official stance of this podcast. Absolutely.

All right. Don't ostrich people. Yep. That's an official quote, folks. So the prosecution lays out the whole scheme. It's very clear to see at this point. I don't think I need to lay it out for you, do I? No.

Okay. No, we are with you. We've had our detective hats on this entire time. But the defense argued that Dr. Box did play a part in this. Okay. But he was forced to. Oh, give me a break. Because Gene Hansen and John Hawkins had threatened to expose his secret homosexual lifestyle.

Well, didn't he come out to his wife? Wasn't that the whole thing? Yeah. But maybe he didn't want patients to know. Maybe he didn't want, maybe he wasn't publicly out maybe he wasn't walking down the street in la with a bullhorn saying i'm a public homosexual well i'm pretty sure that's what everyone does when they come out so we know that can't be the case yeah um no okay so okay thoughts comments concerns here Okay. Thoughts, comments, concerns. Here they come. Okay. Sure.

You don't want to be outed any more than you want to out yourself. Does that make sense? Yes. Yeah. You want to be in control of that, obviously. But that's not enough to make you murder someone. Yeah. Yeah.

I can see being like, don't do that. Don't say that. Yeah. I want to be in control of that message. But no, you're not going to get me to murder someone over this. Yeah. I agree. I think it's a really weak argument from the defense. Yeah.

But there's too much evidence here. I don't know that there's a great way to defend this case. Let me think for a second. No, no, there's really not. Dr. Boggs was convicted of murder for financial gain, conspiracy to commit murder, insurance fraud, and other felony charges. That murder for financial gain is a special circumstance that made him eligible for the death penalty. And the state Oh. Yeah. Right. Why do we got to kill somebody?

I know. So a mistrial was declared only for the penalty phase. And the state said they would seek the death penalty again with a new jury. This seems like such a waste to me. I mean, I kind of feel like if we can't get everyone on board for the death penalty. Then we don't do the death penalty. Exactly. Yeah, we just settle for life in prison

without the possibility of parole. Yeah. Isn't that enough? Right. I think so. So do I. So, but no. So the state's like, fine, we'll do it all again. Just the penalty phase. At this point, the defense spoke out publicly and they said they believed there was like an ulterior motive here with the prosecution.

Yes. They thought that they were only seeking the death penalty to get Richard Boggs to take a deal to get him to agree to testify against Gene Hansen and John Hawkins. Oh. Yeah. Okay. They also made a statement about how the prosecution brought up his homosexual lifestyle as a and that prejudice the jury but if it's the basis of your defense then like that's that was the basis of their defense as well so you can't argue that the prosecution maybe they maybe they went further into detail

that like they made a whole statement about how it looked like they thought the judge had erred in allowing the prosecution to talk about Dr. Boggs' lifestyle. Yeah, so to me that says the prosecution

brought it up. And so we used that to create a defense strategy that obviously wasn't real and obviously didn't work. But here we are. Yeah. Yeah. So a second penalty phase did take place. And this time he was sentenced to life without the possibility of parole.

OK, good. Yes. So that's good. Great. So that's good, great. Dr. Boggs in prison. Did he take any kind of deal? No. No, obviously not. You just said it.

Okay. I'm with you. Yeah. I'm on an ostrich, so I'm a little behind. Still training it. So we got Gene Hansen waiting for trial. Yeah. We don't know where John Hawkins is.

Just sweating somewhere. Then in July of 1991, Oprah. Oh, Jesus. What? Oprah what? Oprah Winfrey. No, no, no, no. Oprah Winfrey did a segment about America's Most Wanted.

Okay. She just does a segment about America's Most Wanted. Right. But as part of that segment, they flash up a few pictures of people who have been featured on America's Most Wanted, which included John Hawkins. So his picture is just like briefly shown on this Oprah show as far as I know. Like there's not like some big story told. It just is like part of this segment on America's Most Wanted. And police get a fucking phone call from a woman in Amsterdam.

Shut up. She's like, I am dating this guy who says he's a Canadian businessman. Or I was dating. Maybe they're not together anymore, but she did date him. He said he's from Canada. He said he's a businessman. But he's 100% John fucking Hawkins. fucking Hawkins.

Yeah. And at that point, she was like, I can be sure of it and you can be sure of it as well when you look at his skin condition on his, quote, most private of parts. Kristen, are you OK? Oh, my gosh. Everyone, first of all. Oh, so many noises. My body is reacting to this skin condition on his most private of parts. Yeah.

Will I have an asplosion as this case comes to its own climax? Who knows? Who knows? So apparently. So this was already established. So apparently it was something that the police were aware of, that he has some skin condition on his ding dong. Yeah. But they had never released that information to anyone.

And so they're like, well, that'd be a pretty weird thing to release. Holy shit. It is. She does know. It is him. How did she know to bring that up? Well, no, no. Maybe it's just an identifying feature.

I don't know. I'm catching up now. Yes. They hear she's been in a sexual relationship and they casually mention the ding dong, anything unusual. Probably, I'm guessing. She says, ring-a-ding-ding, you're sure right. Ring-a-ding-dong, actually. Yeah. Yeah.

Ring-a-ding-dong, let's all sing along while I tell you about this man's dong. There you go. There was a big old rash. Some red bumps too. No, I don't know if there's a rash or bumps. I don't know what the skin condition is. It could be like vitiligo or something. Vitiligo?

What are you talking about? What is that? It's a pigment. It's like a pigmentation disorder. Oh. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

All right. So based on that tip. Yeah. On August 2nd, 1991, authorities tracked John Hawkins to a catamaran named Carpe Diem. Shut up. Seize the day. Thank you for that. Off the coast of the Italian island of Sardinia.

Wow. The power of Oprah. When he was approached by the authorities, he claimed to be an Irish sea captain. Named? With British citizenship. I don't know what name he gave them. Hubert Montgomery. And he even produced papers to prove it.

But they were like, uh-uh, buddy. Show us your dick. I don't think they said that, just to be clear. Yeah. They had fingerprinted him, and that's how they identified him. That's a much less exciting way to do it. But it allows everyone to maintain their dignity. Absolutely.

Okay. Absolutely. Did they sing the song, though, just to put a little fear in him? What song? Excuse me, the original song that I just beautifully performed for you. Oh, Randy. Oh, my God. The lack of gratitude is astounding.

I'm so sorry. So he was arrested. However, Italy refused to extradite him unless prosecutors agreed not to seek the death penalty. Yeah, I like it. I like it when these countries get a little condescending with us and they're like, we don't murder our people here, so don't do it. So finally, an agreement was reached and John was extradited to the U.S. In April of 1995, Gene Hansen and John Hawkins were finally tried together

not a moment too soon they were both charged with insurance fraud murder and conspiracy to commit murder

there were some other like little charges too in relation to the insurance fraud I like how you gesture like you're sprinkling some seasoning

at trial the prosecution contended that both were equal partners in what was quote almost the perfect crime. I mean, yeah. Yeah.

They had conspired to murder Ellis Green for financial gain. The defense admitted that Gene Hansen and John Hawkins had committed insurance fraud. They didn't contest that. They're like, yep, you got him. Yeah. They did that. Guilty as charged. But they said that's all they were guilty of.

Because the doctor did the murder? They argued that Dr. Boggs was solely responsible for procuring the body and that the deal the men had pitched him and that they believed was going to be taking place was that he was going to purchase a cadaver. Mm-hmm. There was never any plan to murder anybody. And they believed this whole time they had no idea that Ellis Green had been murdered. They believed he had died by natural causes. No. Nope.

Yeah, don't buy it. No. Nope. Even if that were were true let's say that's true i think when you come up with a plan like this and you find someone desperate enough to go through with it you know the risk you're taking exactly absolutely john hawkins did not testify, but Gene Hansen took the stand in his own defense. And he said that Dr. Boggs had volunteered to supply the corpse. They hadn't even had to really, like, ask him. He volunteered to do it. He testified that the first time he ever saw Ellis Green was when he was already dead in Dr. Boggs' Glendale office.

Yeah, that's not much better, my dude. I agree. I agree. The prosecution claimed that Gene Hansen had helped Dr. Boggs lure an inebriated Alice Green into Dr. Boggs' office, where he was then attacked with a stun gun and then suffocated, likely smothered to death. Yeah. And that Gene had played a very active role in that. Yeah, this really isn't a one-person job. Nope.

job nope and if the doctor did do that much then he should have gotten i don't know 75 of the money right it's interesting i don't i don't know that dr boggs ended up getting any money as like i mean yeah you fuck around with these guys i bet you don't yeah so the plan i mean I mean, yeah, you fuck around with these guys. I bet you don't. So the plan, I mean, I'll go into it a little bit more here in a little bit. But, like, so the plan was that John was supposed to, like, buy Gene out of the company. So John got all of Gene's shares in the company. Okay.

Gene got money as a result. And he's supposed to disappear. Right? So they can fake his death. Right. And then John gets the money from the disappear, right? So they can fake his death. And then John gets the money from the insurance payout. So they both get money. Uh-huh.

And then they're supposed to give some portion of that to Dr. Boggs. Okay. But I don't know if Dr. Boggs ever actually. Yeah. Who knows? Doesn't matter. Yeah. Following the testimony at this trial, which interestingly was held during the same time as the O.J. Simpson trial.

Oh, wow. So it was completely overshadowed. I was going to say, this is a really wild story. Yeah. It's funny. I feel like faking your own death, that's something people talk about. But you never really hear stories about people actually trying to pull it off. Yeah. The jury got the case, and the jury found both Gene Hansen and John Hawkins guilty of conspiracy and guilty of the insurance fraud charges.

Right. They also found Gene Hansen guilty of the first-degree murder charge, but they hung on John Hawkins' murder charge, likely because it was confirmed that he was in Ohio at the time of the death. So a mistrial was declared on that one charge. You mean he was acquitted or mistrial? No, it was mistrial. They hung on that. They could not decide. Okay.

So Gene Hansen was found guilty of murder with special circumstance because it was for financial gain, which made him eligible for the death penalty. But ultimately, he was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. John Hawkins was never recharged for the murder charge as far as I could find. Okay. He was sentenced to 25 years to life. Yeah. Gene Hansen did appeal his sentence. Okay, so this is really interesting.

No sources mention this. I only just happened to find the appeal filing. Okay. So he appealed his sentence and the appellate court agreed with him at least in part. They reversed some of the special circumstances that had been found at his trial and they remanded his case back to the lower court for sentencing. And at some point he was resentenced to 25 years to life. Oh, wow. Yeah.

OK. That's quite a reduction. That's quite a reduction, yes, to go from life without the possibility of parole to 25 years to life. Yeah, I don't really like that. I mean— And I could find, like, nothing about this. Yeah. Just—honestly, I found an appeal that happened after this.

When that resentencing was—his fine was recalculated, so originally he was ordered to pay $1,000 in restitution. When they resentenced him, he was ordered to pay $1,000 in restitution. When they resentenced him, he was ordered to pay $10,000 in restitution. So he appealed that again, and that's the appeal I found. Okay. So in that appeal, it just says a lower court resentenced him to 25 years to life. So that's all I know. Huh. Okay. Yeah. Dr. Richard Boggs died of pancreatic cancer in prison in 2003. Yeah. Gene Hansen, I believe, also died in prison. That's what the real Murders of Los Angeles says at the end of the episode, that he died in 2016 in prison. I found another source that was dated at 2017 and said he was still serving his sentence.

But I checked today. The search of the California inmate database shows that he is not currently incarcerated. So I do believe he died in prison. John Hawkins was released in 2012 after serving 20 years. What's he up to? In 2014, he sat down for an interview with 10 TV, which is a Columbus news station, and spoke a bit about the crime and his life since being released. He called himself a narcissist. Wow. Yeah. And he said, like, it just, he got too big too fast. Too much attention.

He said by the age of 25, he had this, you know, chain of 22 stores. He said they had the largest selection of workout clothing at the lowest possible price. What does he, does he have a bunch of this in his bag that he's trying to sell now? He said, looking back, he admits that he is a narcissist. Yeah. He said, I got more attention than I should have gotten. More attention than most 25-year-olds get. And it went to my head.

My focus was always on being successful. So the way they break it down on the Oxygen show is like, yeah, this guy got really big, really fast. These two guys together, really. And they made all this money. But then they realized that there was going to be a lot of work to run this company. And neither one of them wanted to do the work. I feel like it would be a lot of work to run one company. Yes, exactly.

And so they were running the company into the ground. And they had this investor who came along and wanted to, it was a shoe company that wanted to come and invest in the company. They wanted to put like $2 million into the ground. And they had this investor who came along and wanted to, it was a shoe company that wanted to come and invest in the company. They wanted to put like $2 million into the company, but they wanted to do an audit first. And the audit would have revealed that there was no money in this company. It was like going to fail any day. And so they came up with this scheme to try and get through that audit. Are you kidding me? No. This was the idea?

That was the idea. Rather than just, hey, let's just focus on this business, regroup, maybe in a couple years we can sell it. Yep. So as this, the way this scheme was going to work was Gene was going to siphon what money they had left in the company out. So then John would get his shares and then he'd also get the million dollar life insurance payout. Right. And then this company would come and put the money back into the business.

This other investor. This is the weirdest dumbest it's so dumb yes but the plan obviously didn't work right yeah and as soon

as the insurance company came sniffing around John Hawkins freaked the fuck out so the day it was the day that he got the call that, like, the insurance company was investigating. He went to his roommate and said, I'm fucking leaving. I'm getting my money and I'm leaving. He went and he took whatever money he could. He went to every bank in the area.

He got $400,000 in cash. He pulled it out of the business accounts. He drove to the area. He got $400,000 in cash. He pulled it out of the business accounts. He drove to the airport with $400,000 cash and flew out of the country. He left in such a rush that he parked his

Mercedes convertible at the airport with the top down and the key still in the ignition. Well, did he want someone to take it? Was that part of the scheme? No. Oh, he was just truly like. Truly like, I got to get the fuck out of here as fast as possible.

Wow. Mm-hmm. Okay. He said, at that point, I pressed the panic button and ran. Hmm. He said, they call it the mad cash dash. i went around to all the banks in columbus and got as much money as i could get who's they i have no idea that sounds like the narcissism talking

he said he went to amsterdam initially he got several fake there, but he kept running into people he knew. What? I think. I don't know. He said everywhere I went, I ran into people I knew. And so he bought a sailboat so that he could keep moving, named it Carpe Diem. And then he said he drank too much and partied with a lot of women. And he said he did that because he was horrified by the murder and consumed with guilt. Okay. You're losing me, John.

I know. He said, I was lost, really lost. Then he talked about his time in prison. He said, I was in maximum security prisons the entire time. For the first 17 years, there was no glimmer of hope whatsoever. The most horrible thing is losing your freedom and being separated from the people you love. Do you think the most horrible thing is being murdered? Yeah, maybe. Just maybe. Perhaps. How are people this tone deaf? Yeah.

You murdered someone for money. Yep. An innocent person because you wanted some money. Yep. I'm sorry you had a rough 17 years that you deserved. He said then he got involved in a program through the prison where he helped troubled teens. Police and school principals brought them to the prison to hear the inmates' stories and steer kids away from drugs and gangs. Scared straight, was it? Basically, yes. Yeah. And John said as he began to see the kids change, he changed himself. He said, it was for me an opportunity to give back and make amends.

He also said that he thought about Ellis Green every day, a man he never met. He made sure to say that. And he said he's thought a lot about how Ellis's death affected his family. John said he learned that Ellis's dad, like his health declined terribly after his son's death. His mother actually suffered a heart attack after her son's death. His sister tried to die by suicide. Oh, my God. And Ellis's twin brother did die by suicide.

Yeah. Yeah. He said, my actions caused immeasurable devastation in this family's life. It sure did. It sure did. It sure did. I think that's the other thing that's hard about Ellis being gay in the late 80s is you don't know how his family reacted. And, you know, maybe they reacted poorly. And, you know, maybe they reacted poorly, but if he'd been allowed to live, who knows what could have happened over the years, how much they could have grown, how much they could have evolved.

And instead, because you murdered him, they're all stuck in that place. Yep. Exactly. Where who knows what the last words they said place. Yep. Exactly. Where who knows what the last words they said to him were. Exactly. Yep. So John Hawkins' work with the Scared Straight Style Program actually played a huge role in him getting paroled. The police officers that worked with the program and the principals who brought the kids in wrote letters to the parole board for him. Okay. And so after 20 years,

he was released. And he said he had to learn how to live in the world again. He said it had changed so much while he was away. He didn't know anything about computers. His mom had to force him to get a cell phone because he's like, I don't need one of those. And she's like, yeah, you do. He now lives with his mother in an RV park in San Diego. He spends time at the beach each day and he continues to do speaking engagements at schools to try and steer kids away from bad choices. He says he feels very blessed to have a second chance. Yeah. And that's the story of insurance fraud.

That was wild. I've never heard that one. I'm shocked it's not more well-known. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, just because it's such a wild story. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just because it's such a wild story. Yeah. Whew.

Yeah. Gene Hansen, his entire time that he was in prison, claimed that he was falsely convicted of murder. He said that was never the plan. He had no part in it. He wasn't even aware that it had happened. I don't believe that. Here's the thing. I said it before and I'll say it again.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Even if you really weren't planning to murder someone. Yeah. These are the risks you take when you start up a scheme like this. Yeah. With people who are desperate enough to do this with you. Yeah. You have to know that there's a risk that someone will get hurt or possibly killed.

Yeah. Yeah. Fuck off, Jean. Mm-hmm. Is that not wild? Yeah, it's wild. Not quite as wild as the name Wolfgang von Snowden. It's an amazing name.

I mean, that's really an example of pulling from everything you love. Yeah. That name's a real smorgasbord. It is. It is. Absolutely. Shall we do an ad? I think we shall.

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And now we're back from the ad. Toodaloo! Brandi, that was a very well-told story, but you know what I want to do now? Take some questions from the Discord? Yeah, and I want to interrupt you. Oh, okay. Tell the people how you get in the Discord, Kristen.

Okay, here's how you get into the Discord. You sign up for our Patreon at the $5 level or higher. And when we record, we're like, do you have any questions for us? And then you ask some questions and we answer a few and that is the story of what is happening to you right now. Amazing. Oh,

Les Lemon wants to know, Brandy and Kristen, did y'all get the tiny detective hat I sent to your P.O. box? You bet your ass you did. And we, or we did, I think we talked about it on an episode this week, maybe? Yeah, today. Today? Yeah, the episode this week, maybe? Yeah. Today. Today? Yeah, the episode that came.

Well. Time's a construct. Time's a construct. Don't worry about it. Is this coming to you from the past? I don't know. Yes. Yes.

We got it, and we love it, and I've worn it. Also, Brandi, you might not like this, but my dad also wore it. Oh, great. It looked hilarious because his head is so large and in charge. And that hat is so little. Yes. Thank you, Les Lemon. It made us laugh so much. I seriously can't wait for when we get video in here so that you can put that hat on when it is appropriate.

Yeah, when I'm being a detective. Absolutely. Oh, Bigfoot's Bottom Bitch asks, I'm on week two of a strep infection. Oh, no. Yikes. I got antibiotics already. Very good. Happy to hear that.

What do you guys do, eat, or drink when you don't feel good? Do you have specific things that you eat and drink when you don't feel good? It's weird, but I like spicy food when I don't feel good. Oh, interesting. Which, you know, seems like you're really playing with fire. But I think usually because I have, like, sinus-y stuff, I'm like,

clear me out, baby. You seem like a saltine. I'm a saltine and out, baby. Clear it out. Yeah. You seem like a saltines. I'm a saltine and Sprite girl. Yep. Doesn't really matter what the ailment is. No. Saltines and Sprite makes me feel better. Very good.

Yes. Hmm. Frozen Like a Grape says, this is inappropriate, but it's from my boyfriend, David Tennant's wife. Would you rather have penises for fingers or a vagina for a nose? Wait, I'm still stuck on. It's from my boyfriend's wife. Yeah, he's not really my boyfriend. I just loved him. David Tennant's an

actor. He's Doctor Who. Oh, okay. I'm not familiar with this neurosurgeon. Penis fingers? Vagina nose. Oh, gosh. Penis fingers, I think. I'm sorry. There's something about a vagina nose that's just so amusing. Yeah, but I would do vagina nose.

You would do vagina nose. Yeah. All right. Yeah. All right. If you ever had to wear glasses, they'd just sit right on the clit, though. Well, I think I would wear contact lenses. Oh, yeah.

Seems like a pretty easy solution. What about you when you want to shake somebody's hand? I would wear gloves. Do a lot of gloves. Okay, but no one wants to touch your gloved penises when they first meet you. Maybe they wouldn't know I have penises. Well, that seems like a real violation, doesn't it?

Well, you're just walking around with a vagina on your nose. Yeah, but I'm not touching it to people. How do you know? What do you mean, how do I know? I'd say you're much more likely to accidentally brush someone with a vagina on your face than you are with the vagina in your pants.

Sure, but you have penises coming from your pants. Right, but I'm wearing gloves, so there's a barrier. You can't have gloves on all the time. When I'm in public, sure. I'd be like the witches. Okay. You know, and that's... I absolutely do.

Yeah. But still, I do... I would feel violated if I shook hands with someone and it's a real weird handshake for obvious reasons. And you later find out that that person has penis fingers. It's all penises. Yeah. And I'm like, well, why couldn't they have just done an elbow bump? To me, though, as soon as the fingers are on your hand, they're desexualized.

The penises? Yeah. No. All right. No, you have to be around the person long enough for them to become desexualized. But you're walking through the grocery store. I'm not going to be like, penises. Oh, wait, they're attached to her hand.

Okay, it's not weird. No, I'd be like, penises the whole time. I might follow you through a couple aisles. Make sure I was right with what I saw. Anyway, you've clearly made the wrong choice. No, okay. I don't want a vagina on my face. Well, I don't want one either.

Hmm. Interesting. Les Lemon says, Kristen and Brandy in an old episode, y'all declared a hot dog not a sandwich. I agree. But could one consider it a taco? I think it's closer to a taco than it not a sandwich. I agree. But could one consider it a taco? I think it's closer to a taco than it is a sandwich. Yeah, a taco's not a sandwich.

No, a taco's not a sandwich. I will not compromise on this. I don't think that's the argument. What's the argument? The argument is, are a hot dog and a taco similar? Somewhat. Yeah. I don't like these questions. All right. I'm still thinking about walking around town with a vagina on my nose.

Well, vagina for nose. Excuse me. Then I started thinking, what if I get my period? That's disgusting. Well, I assume, again, I assume it's not a functioning penis or vagina. I don't think you're bleeding out of your face four days a month. It's amazing to me how condescending you are about this topic. I wouldn't think someone could be condescending about this.

You're right. I'm such an asshole. Yes. Wow. Better move on to a different question. A cool boat says, are we sure it's pronounced

Eric Von Deaton? Because I swear I thought it was Eric Von Deton, but Kristen says Deaton in the Supreme Court Inductions. We have no idea. Why would anyone trust my pronunciation of anything? No, we for sure have no idea. Honestly, if I had to bet, I'd be like, what did I say?

That's probably wrong. Yeah, don't worry about it. I'm sure you're good. Ooh, just let me lie on the file, asks Kristen. Do you think you would have ended up back in KC if it weren't for law school? Like, I know law school brought you back, right? Absolutely. Yeah. It's so funny. I think back to how silly I was back then, but like, and not silly, but just like, I was very obsessed with doing everything the exact right way. Yeah.

And I truly was like, so when I was living in North Carolina, I wanted to come back home. Yeah. Truly was like, so when I was living in North Carolina, I wanted to come back home. Yeah. But I felt like, well, I can't just leave my job and move back to Kansas City and then look for another job. Right. Unemployed. That can't happen. And so I remember trying to apply to places. But, you know, they were like low level jobs because I was only a couple years out of college and they

were like well why is this weirdo yeah you know so and so yeah my my solution was like I did think that I wanted to be a lawyer so I was like well this is a perfect solution and then I but I think about like in retrospect the much more much more cost effective option would have been to quit my job and just come back home and search for a job. Yeah. Yes. But again, I was so obsessed with doing everything the exact right way. Yeah.

And look where it got me. Sitting across from you talking about a vagina in my face. Oh, where's T-shirt? Look where it got me. Sitting across from you talking about a vagina in my face. Ooh, wears t-shirts sometimes. As Brandy, do you have recommendations on products or tools to help tame staticky hair? Okay, I do. All right, everybody already knows I'm a verb girly. It's like my favorite brand of hair products. They just came out with this product called Ghost Air Whip, I believe is what it's called.

Ooh, sounds delicious. called Ghost Air Whip, I believe is what it's called. Oh, sounds delicious. So it is, it's meant to be like a cream that you can scrunch in your hair to let it air dry and it just brings out your natural texture. I like it for so much more than that. I think it is an amazing product. It would be great for cutting static

and you could use it two different ways. So I like to put it in as like a blow dry lotion. I put it in just a small amount, like pea-sized amount. Comes in a little pump. Work that through damp hair. And then I like it because it gives just a little tiny bit of control to the hair for a blow dry. I also like an even smaller amount, like a little half pea. Not even a half pea.

A quarter pea. Wow. A quarter pea dabby. And you rub that on your hands almost like you're going to rub lotion in and then just run your fingers through your hair. It will work to bring out your layers or break up your curls or tame your static. Well, there you go, folks. And it's so affordable. All of our products are $20 a piece.

Like it's just it's a great it's a great product. How much are you making off of this? I'm not making anything off of this. I just legitimately like the product. This is why we're so bad at this. Yeah, Verb should sponsor me. Yeah. Yeah.

So should Awala. Awala, we love you. Verb, we love you. Come on. Judge of Panels asks, just listened to an episode where Brandy said she thought London was going to be a lefty. Is she? Jury's still out. She definitely favors her left hand, but she throws and writes and eats with both of them.

Hmm. Mm-hmm. You should do that thing they did in the 20s where they just force it on them. I'm not going to do that. It's so ridiculous. Can you believe they used to do that? Yes. Brief.

Ooh, True Crime and Taco Bell wants to know, you ladies seem pretty close with your siblings. What do you think your parents did, if anything, to help curate that relationship when you were kids? Okay, so for me and Kyla, we're only 18 months apart. So that's like you're either going to hate each other with a fiery passion or you're going to be like little BFFs. Yeah. And we were always little BFFs. Yeah. Were you and Casey?

No, we did not get along when we were kids. Uh-huh. But we're close now. Yeah, we fought all the time when we were always little BFFs. Yeah. Were you and Casey? No, we did not get along when we were kids. But we're close now. We fought all the time when we were kids. Who was the problem? Me. I'm the problem. Because Casey could entertain herself for hours and I need to be entertained. Oh, you bugged the shit out of her.

Yes. What are you doing now? What are you doing now? Yeah. She was probably trying to read a book. Yeah. Mm-hmm. What are you doing now? Yeah, she was probably trying to like read a book. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Did you do that thing where you would come up to the person holding the book that they were reading and poke the book?

I'm sure that I did that. Yes. Absolutely. Okay. 100%. All right. All right. Blue Orchid asks, I'm still wondering if either of you have ever had a same-sex crush.

Okay, here's what I'm going to say. Is that I fucking wish I did. Like, if I had a choice, I think I'd be a lesbian. I think I admire a lot of women. I've never been sexually attracted to a woman. But I think I, I don't know. Dudes are kind of gross sometimes. I think.

I've got bad news for you about women. Women are pretty gross sometimes too. For example, I've been holding back a fart this whole time. Oh, God. Whole time. I think I could definitely go for a lady. Yeah. But then I say that and I'm like, I went to a women's college. It would have happened then, I think I could definitely go for a lady. Yeah. But then I say that and I'm like, I went to a women's college.

It would have happened then, I think. You would think. Yeah. But you never know. Yeah, no. I admire a lot of women. I find a lot of women very beautiful, very attractive. I've never been sexually attracted to a woman, though.

Damn it. So you're saying you're waiting for the right lady to come along. I don't think so. But she's been right in front of you the whole time. Brandy, this is when you look up at me. Oh, okay. We lock eyes across the table. God, have you ever seen a romantic comedy?

My God. It's always the one you least expect. Again, I think that would have happened by now if that were going to happen, ma'am. We've known each other for like, I don't know, 25 years. OK, well, when we start banging in the nursing home, you know, you can be surprised. No, sadly, I'm only attracted to men. All right. All right. Oh, Chicken Pie wants to know, Kristen, if DP invites you to guest on his podcast, will you do it?

Chicken Pie, boy, do I have news for guest on his podcast, will you do it? Chicken pie, boy, do I have news for you. The podcast is me and my dad. I say that we've recorded one, count it, one episode. Yeah, and it's me trying to keep my dad in check for about an hour. The question is, will we get other people to come on? Because I think that's where the magic will happen. Oh, yeah. Brandy, I think the dynamic of you, me, and my dad is a good time. Yeah, absolutely. The question is, do you want to subject yourself to a situation where my dad has his own podcast? Yeah, jury's still out on that one.

No, I completely understand. Yeah, I think there'd be some fun additions. We've tried to see if my mom would come along. Boy. Cheriri could not be less interested in that, I imagine. Fastest know this side of the Mississippi. Yeah. Hmm.

This is a real thinker. Real Teal Widow says, would you rather eat a pea popsicle made of your own pee or wear a t-shirt all day made of other people's pubes? You don't get to choose the people. You know what? I just read that question at the same time you were reading that question, and I thought, we are never answering that question. And then you.

Were you wrong? Yeah. I would have the popsicle. Oh, I'd have the pube t-shirt. Okay. Hair doesn't freak me out. I think I'd be just fine with it. I'd have the pube t-shirt.

Okay. Hair doesn't freak me out. I think I'd be just fine with it. I think I have a different level of comfort with hair than the average bear. You do. These are pubes. I do get that. I'm not going to like it, but I think I'm going to like eating a pea popsicle less.

To be clear, you are not allowed to wear an emotional support cami under it. Yeah, this is pube to skin contact, my friend. Are there pubic lice involved? You've got no control over that. These are the things you have to think about. Has it been sanitized? No. No. They just said you don't get to choose the people.

So you don't get to choose the condition of the pubes either. Well, I mean, there's a process that the pubes would have to go through to be turned into a T-shirt that I assume will filter out any lice activity. You've got way too much confidence in this pube to T-shirt magic sorcery that's happening. Okay. You're the one who made us answer this question. I remind you. Oh, okay. Droopy Tootie wants to know, how would you two deal with a family member who was talking shit about the food you made for Thanksgiving every year?

family member who was talking shit about the food you made for Thanksgiving every year. My stepmom didn't know I was in the room and told everyone that she hates the way I make green bean casserole because I make my own cream base instead of using cream of mushroom soup. No one has ever complained about it before, and I don't know if I should still make it or tell her to make it herself. Ooh, that's tough. That is tough. What would you do? Hmm.

First of all, I'd be really hurt. I would be too. Oh, gosh. See, I'm having a battle right now between the person I want to be and the person I know I am. Here's how I would handle it, and I feel like this. Okay. Here we go. Okay.

Here's how I would handle it. And I feel like this. Okay. Here we go. Okay. Best version of me. The advice I would give to someone else is, you know what? You just keep making it the way you've always made it.

That's the exact advice I would give. And you don't say anything. Yep. Here's what I think I would actually do, though. See, that is what I would do. I would just pretend I hadn't heard it. My feelings would be very hurt. Yeah. But I'd just keep on doing what I would do. I would just pretend I hadn't heard it. My feelings would be very hurt. Yeah.

But I'd just keep on doing what I do. Yeah. Yeah. I would be very tempted to, when it comes time to figure out, okay, who's making what. Assuming your stepmom's the one hosting. I mean, it sounds like she's the one hosting. Yeah. I'd be very tempted to reach out and be like, hey, you know, I'm planning to bring my green bean casserole again.

I understand you don't really like the recipe. Do you want me to change it up this year? And would it be passive aggressive? Yes. Yes. But it would also, yeah, make her know that, you know, the shit she talked. Yeah. Yeah.

I'd be tempted to do that. Yeah, absolutely. But see, that doesn't even feel very honest either. Right. I mean, the true honest thing would be, but even, is to confront, but even then it's like, okay, so she doesn't like your green bean casserole. Yeah. What do you do with that?

Right. Nothing. Make it the way you like it. Yes, make what you like. And if she wants some other thing, she can make that shit. Yeah. Anyway, green bean casserole smells like feet, so. And it tastes delicious.

So what are we even talking about? Ooh, Missy May wants to know, I've been listening to LGTC nonstop for months. I just finished binging all your episodes and I'm going through withdrawal. What other podcast do you recommend to get me by between your episodes? Boy, do we have some recommendations. Oh my gosh, we've met

so many amazing people this year. Do we have recommendations? I think not. That's one. I think not. That's hilarious comedy. Crime Riders On. Yes. Amazing. Okay, so we should explain. Oh yeah, sorry. So I think not. That's one. I think not. That's hilarious comedy. Crime Riders On. Yes. Okay, so we should explain. Oh, yeah. Sorry.

So I think not. Ellen and Joey, they are hilarious. So funny. If you like us, you're going to like them. You're going to like them. Yeah. Another one in that same vein of like, if you like us, you're going to like Crime Riders On.

Yes. They'll do like reviews of true crime documentaries, true crime podcasts. Yeah. Let me tell you how validated I felt. Norman and I tried, tried to watch The World's, this is so rude, but it was a really shitty documentary on Max about Jared from Subway. Oh, okay. And I just sat there hating it the whole time and then we turned it off. Yeah.

Crime writers on. Hated it too? They also did not much care for it. They were a little nicer than I was just then. But it was like I was just like folding laundry listening to that episode like yes. Yes Rebecca Lavoie. Yes

we agree. What else? Sisters Who Kill. You turned me on to that one. Love them. So that's a podcast about. It's two black women and they host a podcast where that one. Love them. Yes. So that's a podcast about. It's two black women. They host a podcast where they cover black murderers. Women.

Black women murderers. Yes. They call them murderesses. Yes. Which is appropriate because sometimes we need to get fancy. Yes. Who else do we love? Shit. So many.

So many. I mean, that's three really good ones. Yeah, absolutely. A date with Dateline. Yes.. So many. I mean, that's three really good ones. Yeah, absolutely. A date with Dateline. Yes, also very good. Also, not true crime, but very similar to our type of humor, One Dry Kiss. Yes. They do recaps of rom-coms.

Yeah. So there you go. Yeah. We just filled your whole schedule. That's right. Should we do some Supreme Court inductions? I'm afraid we shall. Excellent.

To get inducted on this podcast, all you have to do is sign up for our Patreon at the Supreme Court level. And right now we are reading your names and your first celebrity crushes. Jess Holbert. Donna Klimchuk. Eric Estrada. Emily Slater Gardner. Michelle Pfeiffer as Catwoman. Bill Nye the Russian Spy. Richard Marks. Christy Bellinger McFadden. Eddie Cibrian. Oh yeah, he's like a Hallmark movie guy, I think. I'm pretty sure he's married to Leanne Rimes.

movie guy, I think. Oh. I'm pretty sure he's married to Leanne Rimes. Okay. Okay, we'll allow it. Bridget. Kim, possible. And then Bridget writes, if I would have realized that earlier, I would have spent less time in the closet. Ryan Blankenship.

Jack Black. Libby. Chocolate chip. Libby either had sexual feelings for a chocolate chip, or Libby was just thinking about her favorite cookie. Very good. Elena. Lindsay Lohan. London Solomon.

John Stockton. Allie. Orlando Bloom. Steph Trinishevsky. Joey McIntyre. Megan. Batman, specifically from the animated series. We've got a lot of animated sexy folks here.

Logan. Donny Osmond. Jessica Castle. Adam Ant. Welcome to the Supreme Court! Thank you, everyone, for all of your support. We appreciate it so much. If you're looking for other ways to support. We appreciate it so much.

If you're looking for other ways to support us, please find us on social media. We're on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, Patreon. Please remember to subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen and then head on over to Apple Podcasts and leave us a five star rating and review. Then be sure to join us in two weeks when I'll be an expert on a whole new topic. Podcast adjourned. And now for a note about our process. I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts.

I got my info from an episode of The Real Murders of Los Angeles, Forensic Files, The Los Angeles Times, and 10TV News. For a full list of our sources, visit lgtcpodcast.com. Any errors are, of course, ours, but please don't take our word for it. Go read their stuff.