Let's Go To Court! - 284: A Kidnapping... AUSTRALIAN STYLE! ft. Ellyn and Joey from I Think Not!

Episode Date: February 7, 2024

IT’S HAPPENING!!! *THE* Ellyn Marsh and *THE* Joey Taranto from the fantastic podcast, I Think Not! joined us for a very special episode! Like any good host, Brandi served up what she does best�� a kidnapping… AUSTRALIAN STYLE! Well, she doesn’t *do* the kidnappings, she just tells about the kidnappings. And this one is a doozy. The kidnapping of Carolynne Watson and Julian Buchwald involves roadkill, a hate group, and a very creepy, very predatory boyfriend. We suggest you buckle up. And now for a note about our process. For this episode, Brandi copy and pasted from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “Case 07: Julian Buchwald & Carolynne Watson” podcast episode, Casefile “KIDNAPPING: Carolynne Watson” by Natasha Leigh, Medium “Order of Nine Angles” wikipedia.org “Twisted Romeos Darren Saltmarsh and Julian Buchwald turned the search for love to pure terror” by Paul Anderson and True Crime editor, The Herald Sun “Kidnapper Julian Matthias Buchwald uses fake passport photo to flee justice” by Norrie Ross, The Herald Sun “Kidnap case: guilty verdict” by ABC News, abc.net.au “Kidnapper fled to India to avoid jail, court told” by Adrian Lowe, The Sydney Morning Herald “Gippsland man appeals kidnap sentence” by Peta Carlyon, abc.net.au “Fake Indian kidnapper loses appeal” by Andrea Petrie, The Age “Nailed, bailed, jailed then derailed. The bush plot that cost a man his country” by John Silvester, The Age YOU’RE STILL READING? My, my, my, you skeezy scunch! You must be hungry for more! We’d offer you some sausage brunch, but that gets messy. So how about you head over to our Patreon instead? (patreon.com/lgtcpodcast). At the $5 level, you’ll get 50+ full length bonus episodes, plus access to our 90’s style chat room!  

One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Pond. Let's go to court. On this episode, I'll be talking about a kidnapping. Australian style.

Oh my gosh, Brandi, there are some people in the room giggling at our inability to say things in unison. At our inability, yes. Who are these rude people? That's correct. We have the Alan Marsh and the Joey Toretto from I Think Not. Hi, everyone. And don't forget, it's me, Kylie Minogue. I heard you covering an episode from Australia, so I came over here.

Oh! Just, pa-dum, pa-dum, my name is Polly Minogue. Did you pick this Australian episode because you have been following that I'm obsessed with kangaroos this week, or no? No! That's just a happy, a happy

accident. Wow. Like a little, we got a Bob Ross moment, happy little accident. So you're saying you pay no attention to Ellen or to Joey. Thank you. Way to be rude to our guests. No, you know what? I do think we should be a little rude to our guests.

Just on principle, my sister Kyla, your sister Casey, they were a little too excited that we were doing an episode with I Think Not. They didn't come out and say, oh, that's our real favorite podcast, but the vibe was there. And last week, after we finished recording, Kyla called me like immediately. It was like her dog senses or something were going off.

And she was like, are they as cool as they seem on the show? What's Joey really like? And I said to her, I said, I thought things were going well. At the end of the recording, Joey ended it by being like, God, I knew you two were ugly, but now I know you're boring, too. And it's just because I don't want people to be liking you all too much. You know, that's the problem. You are stunning and hysterical and it is a true joy to be here. I adore you both.

Ellen hates you. Well, Joey texted me this morning and said, I think that Kristen hides her evil under her bangs. I don't know what that, I don't know what she meant. And then he also was like, and you know, every time Brandy laughs, she's actually saying, fuck you, Ellen and Joey. Yes. Yes. That's correct.

It was, I was like, wow, I think you're being a bit harsh on them. But he was like, no, they fucking, they're evil and they're here to take us down. And I was like, I mean, we already agreed, you know? No. It didn't take you guys long to figure us out. We appreciate it, though. We are so glad you're both here. We're thrilled to be here.

This is so exciting for us. Oh, my gosh. Thank you for being here. I can't wait to tell you an amazing story, Australian style. Yeah. Brandy's weirdly good at these kidnapping stories. Just be warned. Love it. Be warned. Okay. Love it. I feel like that's- Kidnappings are kind of my specialty. Yeah. Brandy's weirdly good at these kidnapping stories. Just be warned. Love it. Okay. I feel like

kidnappings are kind of my specialty. Right. I did know that. That is a little ominous. But I just have to tell you that sitting back and just like you guys really sorted this out because you only have to do 50% of the work. It's awesome. And you're just like it's not my

episode. And you know like I'm going to mute Joey but like I carry the work. It's awesome. And you're just like, it's not my episode. And you know, like, I'm going to mute Joey, but like, you know, I carry the show. Oh, sure. It's like, it's like,

it's like 85, 50, 90 times. It's like 90. 90 times. Like 95. So I am down for this. I'm just going to sit back

and just, here's what I will tell you though. I'm just going to sit back and just. Here's what I will tell you, though. When it is my week to be the listener, the reactor, I am in full detective mode where I am attempting to solve the case as it goes along. So I expect the same from the three of you. Got it. Yeah. Today. I also would like to make an apology not only to you, but to your listenership.

I have extreme ADHD. I have medicated myself. But sometimes my questions come out of left field. I apologize ahead of time. Like you can like mention something and I'll be like, you'll mention, for example, kangaroos. And I'm like, do you know how high a kangaroo can jump? Oh, you don't. It's 25 feet.

Holy shit. There you go. What the fuck? Is, you don't? It's 25 feet. Holy shit. There you go. What the fuck? Is it really 25 feet? Wait, not to hijack this conversation. Have you guys seen male kangaroos? Yes. They look like big buff boys, don't they?

Yes, and they've got like real hands. I just watched this TikTok of a lady at like a kangaroo. It looked like some kind of kangaroo sanctuary. And she was trying to get this kangaroo to go outside. And it was pissed at her. And so it kept trying to punch her with its little paw hands. I saw that video. You did?

They look like brosephs at the gym. Yeah. They're so fucking buff. They go like that. They pose. They're like, come at me, bro. Let's go. I'm not.

They're terrifying. Just be warned. I apologize. That will be nothing new for our listeners. Our listeners are not accustomed to dealing with women with ADHD and tangents and all that stuff. They're going to be disgusted and

frankly horrified, I think. I feel like the last episode... Wait until they have to deal with a gay man with a broken heart. Jesus Lord. He's looking for love in all the wrong places, folks. It's true. Wasn't your last episode two hours and one minute?

I feel like the last episode that you dropped was two hours and one minute. Yes, yes, ma'am. We go hard. Yeah, I'm here for it. So don't come at me, Joey. Yeah. If you want to come to the vagina party for it. So don't come at me, Joey. Yeah. If you want to come to the vagina party, you have to take off your shoes at the door.

Hold on. When did I ever say I wanted to come to the vagina party? What? I don't remember signing that when I got my contract from LGTC. I'm happy to attend. All right, here we go You guys ready for a story? Yes

Okay Couple of shout outs Right off the top First to Hi Priestess of Costco In our Discord For recommending this case And also

Shout out to some sources Listen to an episode Of Case File for this Really good article On Medium By Natasha Lee Reporting for ABC News Australian style

Which stands for Australian Broadcasting Corporation, not American Broadcasting Corporation. OK, very good. And The Age, which is another Australian news source. OK. Also, international disclaimer here, which for Ellen and Joey, that means in this case, not that things are like in another language, because obviously Australia, they speak English. But it means I don't have the best access to some of the news sources on it. So there might be some gaps that I've had to fill in. Okay. Here we go.

Julian Buchwald and Carolyn Watson were in love. So in love. It was March 4th, 2008, and 22-year-old Julian had planned a romantic lunch for his 17-year-old girlfriend at a waterfall on his family's 1,200-acre property in the small town of Budgerie, Australia. Goddamn. Budgerie. What was in the lunch? I believe there was some tahini, and that's all I know.

Hmm. Okay. 1,200 acres. That's like a Six Flags. Okay. Okay. 1,200 acres. That's like a six flags. Like, why is so many acres? It's a big ass property. Wow. It's a big ass property.

It's a lot of... So Carolyn lived nearby in Churchill, which is another small town in Australia. So the plan was for Julian to come pick her up and then drive back to his house, pick up the lunch supplies, and then drive to his family's property. I mean, I don't know that the house was situated on the property, but it was like nearby. They did all of this. Julian says, you know, we'll be back by three o'clock this afternoon. Despite their age difference, because, okay, Julian's 22, Carolyn's 17.

Questionable. Apparently, everybody was cool with the couple Because they'd met through their very conservative Christian church that they both attended By this point Julian and Carolyn had been Together for two years But their religion preached Purity and both had vowed

To remain chaste until marriage So at this point Two years into their relationship, all they had ever done was held hands. That was as far as it had gone. Bullshit. Hand-holding. Ellen!

There's no way, right? Hand-holding? Hand-holding. No! First of all, that's disgusting. Man hands are gross. This means they were 15 and 20. Yeah, that's weird. Also, hand hand hold hand holding what were their hands holding is what i want to know exactly that was my next question right

right i wonder if they did a true love weights situation do you know what that is oh yes is that like a purity ring in high school where they do the thing you you show up you go to a meeting they you know they basically are like if you have sex you burn in hell for all of eternity here sign this contract and you get a purity ring and you are promising you will wait until you're married to have sex i said i'm not signing that shit 100 this couple yeah did something of that nature brandy where did you grow up don't you remember in high school, like the girls with the rings? Yes. Yes.

Purity culture. Very big in this part of the country. Oh, my gosh. I remember one time. I'm sorry. We're already on a tangent. Okay. I'm here for it.

So Brandy and I graduated high school in kind of that era where it was like all the media people felt it was totally acceptable to ask Britney Spears if she was a virgin. Like, oh, ridiculous. Can we make a podcast just about that? Oh, my God. Right? Yeah. So I remember, because the school newspaper covered this issue quite intensely.

Which you were the editor of. I was an editor. I wish I could claim to be the top one. I wasn't the top dog. Never been the top dog my whole life. Way to reopen that wound. Nice, Ellen. Thanks so much. Way to go, Ellen. I was going to say

go with it because Google didn't exist then and you can just lie on the form. Okay. That's right. Damn. I remember this guy saying that having premarital sex... The spitting in a cup? Yes! Yes, Brandy! I remember this guy saying that having premarital sex. The spitting in a cup? Yes. Yes, Brandy.

I remember this. He said to think of it like a cup. And every time you have sex with someone before you meet your spouse, that person is spitting into the cup, spitting into the cup. And then when you finally meet your wife, she has to drink that cup. That is the weirdest fucking metaphor I have ever heard in my life. Also, how do you know I don't like that? How do you know I don't have a spit pink? Maybe my kink is, are we kink shaming as well? We don't kink shame.

We're shaming everything. That's right. That is a disgusting and inaccurate analogy because it doesn't go in the cup. You know it goes on the boobs or the belly. So let's not be silly, okay? Yeah. And you know what's crazy? A 17-year-old me said the same thing back to that guy.

Yeah. You don't know my wife, sir. Chokes on you, Charles. Okay, edit that guy. Yeah. You don't know my life, sir. Chokes on you, Charles. Okay, edit that out. Okay, so pure. Yeah, they're pure. They're good Christian folk. They believe in purity.

Okay, so this particular March day, which March day, Australian style, because in, okay, in Australia, March is like a fall day rather than a spring day here. So we're coming to the end of, like, you know, we've got, okay, we're, everybody keep that in mind weather-wise. Okay. So Julian drove from Budgeri to pick up Carolyn for their date that night. And then, you know, drove back, loaded up the supplies for this little hike. And then they're in Julian's SUV,

and they're taking off for their little hike to this waterfall. The drive itself was pretty uneventful. It was a typical drive up to the Buckwold property until Julian saw an animal carcass on the side of the road. Julian reportedly was a big fan of roadkill. He liked to examine it, see if he could determine what animal it was, how long it had been there. If the meat was salvageable, you know, all those things. Joey, your face!

That is disgusting. Who is curious about that? It's dead. It's on the side of the road. Keep driving. But isn't that a hunting thing? Like you're not supposed to eat already dead meat. Isn't that like a rule?

I'm pretty sure. I don't know. I mean, desperate times come for desperate measures. Absolutely. But isn't that like a thing where it's like you can't cook that meat or make that meat? You don't know if that meat's been contaminated. Absolutely. Also, it's fucking gross.

Exactly. Thank you, Joey. Yes. So apparently Julian initially drove past the roadkill, but a short way down the road, Julian's curiosity got the best of him. And he decided he had to pull over and he needed to go examine that roadkill. So he pulled over. He told Carolyn he'd be, you know, just a minute. He wanted to go check out that roadkill real quick.

Hold on. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. How long has he had this fascination with roadkill? Is this a lifelong passion? I wish I knew more, Kristen. I wish you did, too. But you came in here barely prepared

and here we sit. Okay, continue. All right, all right. So Carolyn's like, great, have a great fucking time with that roadkill. Only she for sure didn't say that because she's a good Christian girl. She's like, go look at the roadkill. I'm going to stay here in the car. I'll be listening to music. You know, whatever.

So there she sits in the car waiting for Julian to come back. Like 10 minutes went by and Julian's still not back. And he had walked far enough down the road that like she wasn't immediately visible to her. And so after like 10 minutes, she's like, should I go get him? Like, what is happening? Why are we spending this much time looking at this roadkill? As she's like mulling this over, she kind of looks over and she sees the mirror of the car, like the side mirror. And she sees a man dressed in all black, gloves, balaclava covering the face, which is a ski mask. If you're unfamiliar, when I told my husband this, he said, I got to stop you. What's a balaclava?

Yeah, it sounds like a dessert. That's what I said. When I told my husband this, he said, I gotta stop you, what's a balaclava? Yeah, it sounds like a dessert. Is that what I said? It wasn't baklava, Kristen. No. He was covered head to toe in baklava. Covered head to toe in baklava. Looked delicious. Which is creepier.

But this figure, this man, dressed in all black, is running at a full sprint toward her. Carolyn freaks the fuck out. But he is there before she can even react. Carolyn freaks the fuck out. Yeah. But he is there before she can even react. She can't lock the door. She can't do anything. All of a sudden, this stranger opens the car door,

drags her from the car, throws her on the ground, duct tapes her mouth, hog ties her, and then throws her into the backseat of the car. Oh my God. This SUV. So he had to have known she was there. There's no way because he was running with a vengeance,

a quickness. He was running with an assignment, something to do. Absolutely. Okay. From her vantage point in the backseat, Carolyn had very little visibility. So she had no idea where this stranger was going. He just started driving, just took off,

started driving and drove for hours. I'm not going to sing. I'm not going to sing. I promise. Brandy, tell me, did he drive all night? Would you say that? Like six hours. All night

to get to you. I apologize to your listeners who don't know me. They're like, unsubscribe. I'm sorry. listeners who don't know me. They're like unsubscribe and I'm sorry. People have already stopped this podcast. So no, this kidnapper drives Carolyn for six hours.

She's hogtied. She's duct taped over the mouth. I believe she's blindfolded. I was going to say anything over her eyes. I don't know if it's that she's blindfolded or if she just can't see because of her vantage point. Where's Julian? She has no idea. Her eyes? Yeah. Okay. I don't know if it's that she's blindfolded or if she just can't see because of her vantage point. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Where's Julian? She has no idea. She has no idea where Julian is. So we're sure that Julian didn't put the baklava over his face. The baklava over his face? I will not. No, this is an attacker dressed in all black, Kristen. Okay.

Okay. Finally, the SUV comes to a stop and Carolyn is pulled out of the back of the car and she is made to walk through a densely wooded area. Finally, she gets to some kind of clearing. Her attacker pushes her to the ground, cuts off her clothing with a knife and leaves her tied up. So now she's tied up, naked, laying on the ground, and she has no idea where she is. And she starts to hear digging.

Oh, God. Lots of digging. She can't see her attacker, but she just hears them standing there digging. To Carolyn, one thing seemed clear. Her kidnapper was digging her grave. Oh, my God. Carolyn was terrified. She believed she was about to be raped and murdered. Oh my God. Like 100%. So Carolyn did the only thing that

she could think of. She prayed. She laid there naked on the ground, tied up, praying. Okay, so now hours have gone by because this kidnapper drove her for six hours. So back at the Buchwald home, Julian's parents have noticed that the couple has not come back from their little afternoon jaunt up to the waterfall. And so by four o'clock, one hour after they were supposed to return, Julian's mother is like very nervous. It's not like them to be late. It's just very out of character for them. They're good Christian kids. late. It's just very out of character for them. They're good Christian kids. So Julian's mom is like pacing up and down the driveway waiting for some sign of Julian's car to drive by. And on one of those trips up and down the driveway, she noticed something in their like chain link fence

that lined their property. She walked up to it. It was a bottle stuck through like one of the little, you know, one of the little thingies. She pulled it out. There was a note inside the bottle. The note contained what appeared to be satanic symbols. Okay. What year is this again?

And it read. 2008 around the satanic panic thing. Yeah. Huh. It read, you bloody couldn't leave us alone so your son and girl went walkabout. You get Carolyn and Julian back when we finish our business in the area but only if you behave

yourself and don't shit us around again. Tell everyone they are on holiday. Don't you dare talk to the cops again and you'll get your kids back. Shit us again and you'll get your kids back. Shit us again and you'll never see them again because we'll fuck the girl to death and burn her alive. What the fuck? And the bloody boy will really enjoy the torture and sacrifice to our God to pay back 180 times the hurts he did to us when we picked him up.

This is your last warning. Do what we say and the kids come back in alive condition. I really like the alive condition instead of alive. That's a weird choice there. Also, in Australia, do they say shit us around? Is that a thing? Okay, I thought that's the weirdest use of those. Hold on.

Ellen, that's like an Australian thing. Like, don't you shit us around. Okay. I mean, Ellen, that sounds legit. I don't know if it is. Joanne's is better. That is insane. Now, listen.

I have a very close family friend. Her name is Rachel. And her grandmother, Miss Loyce, she could verb up a gate and conjugate a verb. She loved to use shit. And when you would walk in the door, she'd go, where the shit you come from? And then she'd look at your outfit and go, what the shit you got on? And then she would smell you and she'd say, ooh, girl, that shit smells good. That's a lot of shit.

But they didn't say shit like this. They were like, shit. Uh-huh. Yeah. But I've never heard. Don't, what was it? Don't shit. Shit us again or shit us around.

Yeah, I've never heard either of those terms. I think that's like, you know, don't fuck around or you'll find out circa 2008, circa in Australia. I will tell you, initially, the only version of this note that I found had all of the profanity blanked out in it. And so I was trying to imagine, and I didn't even get close to this, but I did finally find the version that had the profanity. Yeah. Hello, Kylie Minogue here. I just wanted to pop in and say, over in Australia, we love shit.

You know, and we love shit, you know, and we use it as a noun, a verb. A verb? Oh, wow. That was bad. We use it as a noun. Nope. Wow.

It's really going downhill. Kylie, what the hell is happening to you? No, it's so good. No, we just love shit. It's like my number one hit hit my international hit that goes um are we gonna get shitical it was love at first sight it first it was um it was shit at first that's beautiful i'm so glad you made that change Download Padam Padam Bye That letter is so JonBenet Ramsey

letter because it's a little confusing it's a little redundant don't call the cops, don't talk about this and it's like it's kind of like the directions are unclear, like I have follow up questions like wait it's very confusing it's like, wait, it's kind of like the directions are unclear. Like I have follow up questions. Like, wait, what? It's very confusing.

It's like oddly written. I agree. OK, so despite the threats in the note, Julian's mother called the police right away. She was like, I'm not fucking around with this. I am calling the police. And within the first few hours that Julian and Carolyn were missing, a search was organized. Initially, authorities started looking at the Buchwald property because that's where they had been going for lunch that day. But that search was almost impossible because this was like legit Australian bushland.

It was a maze of dirt paths and side roads. It was almost impossible to navigate. Like they searched and searched and searched it and were just going in circles. They couldn't even keep track of where they had been. So that search is going on. In the meantime, police also spoke to Carolyn's family and they learned that 10 days prior to this, Carolyn's family had received a note similar to the Buckwilds. What? That note?

Yes. So that note had been discovered by Carolyn's father. It had been left on their front porch. It was a handwritten note, and it warned them to, quote, stay away or they would make their lives miserable and that they would, quote, destroy their family. Whoa. So when Carolyn's family found this note, they turned it in to the police. Oh, okay. That was my question.

Yeah. And the police were like, this looks like a prank. It doesn't seem, I don't think this is real. Like, this is no big deal. Wow. But now we've got Julian and Carolyn missing. What kind of fucked up pranks are you doing in Australia? What happened to keeping people's houses?

What happened to lighting a bag of poop on fire? You're going to throw, that's a prank. We're, we're leaving satanic notes. Yeah. That's where we've escalated to. This is another reason why I've,

I've discovered that Australia has, I have no, nothing to concern myself with in Australia. The bugs, the spiders, the kangaroos, and fucked up pranks. Fucked up pranks. That's right. But now we've got Julian and Carolyn missing. We've got two notes.

So they bring the two notes together and they look the same. They've got the same symbols on them. The handwriting is the same. These were clearly written by the same person. So together, clearly written by the same person. So together, the notes provided a possible suspect and motive. Each note bore the same bizarre symbol that police were able to determine belonged to a satanic neo-Nazi group called the Order of the Nine Angels, or ONA for short. That's wrong. Called the Order of the Nine Angles, which is known as-A for short. That's wrong. Called the Order of the Nine Angles,

which is known as O-N-A for short. Brandy, if you're going to be part of a group, you should know how to pronounce the name. I'm not part of this group, Kristen! Also, can I just say, I'm sorry, can you pick a struggle? Either a Satanist or you're a Neo-Nazi. Please don't be a Satanic Neo-Nazi.

Right! We need to be a satanic neo-nazi you're right really just i mean it's it's enough pick a fucking way oh no we're not just satanists here uh we're also um neo-nazis we're satanic neo-nazis okay paul are you all right you hurt hurt you. Jesus. Okay. So do you guys want to hear a little bit about the order of nine angles? I mean, not really, but I guess we're going to. So the ONA began in the UK in the 1960s. advocates a spiritual path in which practitioners are required to break societal taboos by isolating

themselves from society committing crimes embracing political extremism and violence and uh just this little tidbit about carrying out acts of human sacrifice jesus lord listen if you are a neo-nazi you should be isolated from society absolutely sure there are very nice satanists out there who are like um we don't do ritual sacrifice it's really fucking weird um can you just leave us out of this conversation there is no nice neo-nazi okay you should be isolated no what ona members practice magic believing that they are able to do it by channeling energies into their own causal realm from an a causal realm where the laws of physics do not apply. And these magical actions are designed to help them achieve their ultimate goal of establishing the Imperium. You said a whole bunch of words that I did not understand.

That comes straight from Wikipedia, folks. Jesus, Lord. That's like a Scientologist trying to explain the different levels. Yes. You know, you do this, then you get to connect to the flism-flasm, and then that brings you into the realm of the ploo-plop and the ding-dongs,

and then if you get to the highest tier, you are a urethra entonologist yeah those are words yeah and once you get to that imperium orange julius right next to it doesn't this sound like well i didn't know there was an orange julius in it for me i I know. Now you're like, well, if I must, I must. My God. They're like, we worship Satan. But there's also Dole Whip. So, you know.

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. From the time of their formation in the 1960s to their rise in notoriety in the 1980s, several UK politicians. Is this real? This is all real. There are actual people who are in this group. This is all real. There are actual people who are in this group. This is a real hate group.

This is a real satanic worship group. This Wikipedia page is very full. There's all kinds of information about it. Order of nine angles. Kristen, there are still Hanson fans out there. Kristen's one of them. Kristen's in the fan group. There's a lid for every pot

they had one song a thousand years ago and there are people that still stand them there are there is something for everyone out there people Ellen I am so so glad you just said this because I mentioned earlier my sister Kyla is a huge fan

and I will have you know that growing up she was convinced she was going to marry Zach Hansen. So Kyla, this is just for you. That's the middle one, the hot one? No, the youngest one. He's the young one. He was like missing teeth while he was playing the drums. But he's the hottest one now.

He's the hottest one now. Kyla, are you listening to this? Your hero just shat all over the man you thought you'd love. Do not try and come between me and Kyla are you listening to this your hero just shat all over the man you thought you'd love do not try and come between me and Kyla you are an instigator and a flogigenator aren't they like conservative Christians like I'm sure they are

are they yeah I'm pretty sure are they like what's that thing the ones where it's like no gay purify the family? What is that? Family first? I don't know. Family first?

Focus on the family? Focus on family. Focus on family. Pat Roberts. Yeah. Man. I don't know. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that I feel conservative Christians.

Hey, listen, I just want to say gay people are focused on the family, too. We love kids. Yeah. We just, you know, butt babies just don't survive. Yeah, they do love families. They just spit them out in the sink. That's what happens. Bye-bye. Almost loved you.

Joey, that's when you know. Like, when Brandy says your name, like, oh, Joey. Is she disappointed? She's bummed out. I think it's a sign that you're doing really great when even Brandy has to be like, my God, my God. I just want to remind you that y'all invited my gay ass on this show. You knew what you were getting into.

We sure did. We knew what we were doing. And we have zero regrets about it. I have already come up with 20 versions of what I think happened. And we're not even to the crazy part, I'm sure. Excellent. Okay, back to the ONA. So from the time that they were formed, there were several U.K. politicians that called for this ONA to be designated as a terrorist group.

group. And according to a report by the civil rights group, the Southern Poverty Law Center, the ONA, quote, holds an important position in the niche international nexus of occult, esoteric and or satanic neo-Nazi groups. What did you? What? You just you took a bunch of words and made a sentence and none of them made sense. What? So several newspapers have reported that the ONA is linked to a number of high profile figures from the far right and that the group is affiliated and shares members with neo-Nazi terrorist groups. So it's just bad, bad, real bad. These are bad people. All across the board. Yes.

Yes. Wow. Mitch McConnell's been busy. No, I just like, how does he have the time? How does he have the time? No, I just like, how does he have the time? How does he have the time? Okay, so following its formation in the UK in the 1960s, the group did eventually spread around Europe and to America and Canada and Russia and to Australia.

At the time of this case, though, in 2008, there wasn't any confirmation that the ONA was active in Australia. So the police look at these letters and they are unsure of the legitimacy of them. But when the public learned of them, they thought the taking of these two young Christians was this group's way, the ONA's way of announcing we're here. We're in fucking Australia. Be terrified. I mean, I'm terrified and I'm in. I am terrified. Right.

We've got a legitimate like terrorist organization, satanic neo-Nazi group leaving letters. Maybe. Wow. I just want to say for the record again, not all Satanists are bad. No, I totally agree. I think like the satanic temple is all about like just not not following those societal norms where it comes to like religion. I think those satanists would be like, wow, you guys are being really mean. You know what I mean? OK, so by this time, the search for Julian and Carolyn was in full swing.

Then the police wanted to talk to those who knew them best. This led them to sit down with their pastor. And these are two churchy kids. And so the police sit down with the pastor and he's like, I know what's going on here. I don't think those notes are real. So the pastor told the investigators that he had actually met with Julian and Carolyn. Hold on, hold on, Brandy. Brandy, could we try something?

Because you told us all to put our detective hats on. We on, hold on, Brandy. Brandy, could we try something? Because you told us all to put our detective hats on. Yeah, we've got them on. Should we pause and see what everyone thinks is happening? Oh, sure. Do you guys want to give predictions? Like a halfway point? Yeah. Yeah. Who wants to start? Okay, I've I've got one. And on our show, we frequently make guesses. Often we're wrong and we have to apologize to people. Julian, if I have to apologize to you, I absolutely will. I'm thinking this is all Julian. We love accountability, just so you know. It's a new thing I'm trying. It's fun. It's some kind of setup from Julian, but I am very confused as to who the sprinting person is, but I have no doubt this was a setup. And I don't know if it's a setup

because he wanted to park his beef bus in her depot and she closed up shop. Yeah. But it's something around the sex. Jesus Christ. Okay. Joey, what do you think? Are you on the same page with these two ladies?

This story, I'm riveted. I'm sorry, I know I keep interjecting too, but I'm also like, I'm sure I'm making all kinds of crazy faces because this story is nuts go ahead yeah it's wild it's a wild story it's wild we're podcasting though Joey so it's not a visual so the pastor told the investigators that he had actually met with Julian and Carolyn recently as they were looking for guidance in their relationship the couple had decided to marry but they were looking for guidance in their relationship. The couple had decided to marry, but they were not seeing eye to eye on when the actual wedding should take place.

Julian was ready to get married now. So he knew he had to wait until Carolyn turned 18, which he had he'd come to terms with. He was OK with. But he wanted to marry as soon as she turned 18. And Carolyn, on the other hand, had this just wild notion that she should, I don't know, finish fucking high school first. She just wanted to finish high school before they got married. She was just holding hands with high school. I mean, yeah, I think you should finish high school, Carolyn. You know, when I graduated, there was a girl that I graduated high school with, and she had a boyfriend that they got married.

We graduated in the first week of June, and her wedding was three weeks later. And the real reason was because they were waiting until they were married, and they wanted to have sex, and so they got married. Sure, yeah. That sounds terrible it does i think a lot oh gosh hmm kristen what do you want to say okay we might patty we might have you cut this but don't you think like i think especially where we grew up there were a lot of people who were saving it and a lot of people who oh my gosh my first boyfriend or my first girlfriend they're the one well i mean come on yeah yeah yeah i've gotten a lot of shit on our podcast for saying that getting married young

is just it's not for me and then people be like i've been married 162 years and we got married i was like good for you katherine it's just good for you i Catherine. Good for you. Good for you. You know what? I got married young. I got married at 21, and it was fucking terrible. I look back at my 21-year-old self, and I am just like, who are you? You are an alien with no sense of fashion. You fucked up your own eyebrows. You'll never get those back. And your taste in men never improved.

But I digress. I was still an idiot. Listen, thank God gay marriage wasn't legal when I was 21. When I was 21, I was taking ecstasy and dancing to Darude Sandstorm thinking this is a great song. Yeah. Do it. Do it. Do it. Our listeners have heard you.

I danced to that. High on ecstasy. And I thought. Yes, of course you did. I put glitter. I used to put glitter in my hair, spike it up. There was no way I should have been married at 21. I mean, Brandy.

Were you a raver? No, I was just 21. I mean, Brandy. Were you a raver? No, I was just a faggot, Brandy. Jesus. Fuck. Still am. You can beep it if it's too much. Still am. Turns out there's no cure.

I tried. There's no cure. We're going to keep trying. Wait. Not to get off the rails. Not to get off the rails. Not to get off the rails. Not to get off the rails. Not to get off the rails. Not to get off the rails. Not to get off the rails. Not to get off the rails. Not to get off the rails. Not to get off the rails. Not to get off the rails. Not to get off the rails. Not to get off the rails. Not to get off the rails. Not to get off the rails. Not to get off the rails. Not to get off the rails. Not to get off the rails. Not to get off the rails. Not to get off the rails. Not to get off the rails. Not to get off the rails. Not to get off the rails. Not to get off the rails. Not to get off the rails. Not to get off the rails. Not to get off the rails. Not to get off the rails. Not to get off the rails. Not to get off the rails. Not to get off the rails. Not to get off the rails. Not to get off the rails. Not to get off the rails. Not to get off the rails. I'm trying. Wait. See, Brady, I knew you were part of that group. Yeah. Okay. Okay.

So Julian wants to get married now because he's ready to fuck. And Carolyn's like, hey, can I just finish high school? And he's like, I don't know. I don't care, you. Yeah you yeah exactly so they sit down with their pastor to talk about it ultimately their pastor had told them to take some time off from the relationship oh he told them to take a month he told them to take a month apart figure out what they really wanted and the pastor told the investigators at this point that month was up and he believed that Carolyn and Julian had run off to get

married. No. He didn't think the notes were real. He didn't think they were in danger. He believed they had eloped. Okay. This pastor is no detective. Right.

Because we're firing him from the force here. Listen, I mean. Because if Carolyn just wanted to wait and she's not doing it to placate anybody in her family, it's actually what she wants to do. Right. Why would, you know, why would she do that? I don't think she was part of it. Yeah. Yeah, she for sure took this month and then decided, I actually don't want to be with this guy.

Again, Julian, I'm sorry if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure I'm like, you know, very confident. I'm pretty sure. I'm like, you know, very confident. Yeah, she wanted to dump him. And then Julian has his little change of clothes by this roadkill, this fascinating roadkill. And he's the dude. All right. Yeah, I've got this solved. You don't even have to tell the rest of the story.

Bing, bang, boom. All right, thanks for coming today, Ellen and Joey. We appreciate it. Great. That's a wrap, y'all. Okay. So this is what the pastor says. Carolyn and Julian's families were super skeptical, though.

They're like, absolutely not. They are not capable of something like this, especially the language and the notes that were left. They would never use that language. Shit us around? Absolutely not. On top of that, on top of that, the pair hadn't taken anything with them

other than a picnic lunch and there'd been no activity on their bank accounts. And so the parents were like, nope, that's not it. They did not run off to get married. They are in danger. Days passed.

There were no leads on where the couple could be. And the police started to worry that they might not survive this if they were really kicked out. The searches were turning up. Nothing. Six days passed. And finally, the police were able to deliver some good news to both of the families. Carolyn and Julian were found nearly 200 kilometers from Budgeri. That's about 125 miles.

Thank you. They were found after they stumbled onto a road near the Alpine National Park. near the Alpine National Park. As they stumbled out onto the road, a farmer just happened to be passing by and stopped and got them and rescued them. They were in terrible shape. They had suffered serious sunburns. They had blisters all over their bodies.

They had cuts, but they weren't, you know, not majorly harmed. Like, they were alive. Is he naked as well? Because she had her clothes ripped. He's naked as well. They are both naked. They are both naked.

They've got like strips of clothing on them, but they are essentially naked. And they've never seen that because all they've done is held hands. That's exactly right. That's exactly right. He just wanted to see some titties. I solved it. So this farmer rescues them, gets them back to budgeri. And once they're back home, Carolyn and Julian were immediately taken to the police station to be interviewed so that the police could find whoever had abducted them.

Carolyn sat down with the police first and she told them everything. She recounted how she was tied up, how she was naked on the ground, and how she was praying when she heard that her kidnapper, her attacker, digging. And she thought for sure she was about to be murdered and he was digging her grave. But then all of a sudden the digging stopped and it sounded as if her attacker had walked away. So she began to struggle against her restraints, but she wasn't able to free herself. So she was laying there, continuing to pray after being unable to free herself from her restraints, when she heard Julian yelling her name. At some point, I believe she had got the kidnapper had either taken the duct tape off or it had come off because she was able to call back to him. The kidnapper had either taken the duct tape off or it had come off because she was able to call back to him.

And then Julian came into the clearing where the kidnapper had left her naked and hogtied. Julian was in the same state she was. He was naked. He was tied up. He had managed to get to his feet. And so he walked to her. And as he did, as he made his way over to Carolyn, he stopped and grabbed something off of the ground. Something presumably dropped by their attacker.

It was a knife. And he and Carolyn were able to use it to break free of their restraints. The kidnapper's gone. They're both naked. They get their restraints off of them. But they know they need to get the fuck out of here because they have no idea where this kidnapper is. So this is, you know, Carolyn's telling the city investigators. This is her account of everything that happened.

As they're like getting out of this clearing so they can't be seen if this kidnapper comes back. They notice that kind of off out of the way there was a sleeping bag and a little bit of food nearby. So they grabbed it and then they took off into the bush of Australia for fear that their attacker could come back at any minute. That is horrifying. One sleeping bag? One sleeping bag. Julian's like, listen, I know we're Christian and we made that pinky promise thing to the Lord above for the purity and the sanctity of your vagina. But and I know this guy ripped off all our clothes, but it is so cold out here.

We only have one sleeping bag. You're a monster. So I guess I have to slide inside of you. You are a monster. You're a horrible person. It's a setup. This is all a setup. He's like, what are we to do?

We're not wearing clothes. I guess I'll lay on top of you because we only have one sleeping bag. That's right. And it's so cool. Listen, not to quote Joey Taranto. I know I was born at night, but it wasn't last night. Okay? Although, Joey, I'm with you.

This is where I get nervous. I'm like, am I going to be thrown off our imaginary police force? Is Julian a victim too? Kristen, Julian is not a listener. You're not going to be thrown off our imaginary police force? Is Julian a victim too? Kristen, Julian is not a listener. You're not going to lose a patron, okay? He's not at the five. He's not at the ten. Stop trying to placate Julian.

Julian is a dillbag. Unless you listen to our podcast and you're our patron, in which case, I love you. Unless you listen to our podcast and you're our Patreon, in which case, I love you. So now they're making their way through the Australian bush and they don't have any idea where they are. I thought I was so mature when you said out in the bush, I didn't say a thing. I didn't either, but then she said it again. Yeah, she's asking for it. She also punched it a little bit more this time.

She was like, the bush, like that. The bush. She was daring us. She was. She was like, come at me. Like that. So they want to get away from this area because they don't know where this kidnapper is. So as they're making their way through, Julian starts filling in Carolyn on his version of what happened. He said that while he was bent over looking at the animal carcass, someone came up

behind him and hit him in the back of the head and knocked him out. He had only just come to when he started yelling Carolyn's name and found her in that clearing. You would never make it on our podcast, Brandi Pond. Yeah. We're talking about Bush. We're barely keeping it together. And then she's got him bent over.

Knocking him in the back. He had to come. Come on. Grow up, Brandi. Grow up. I do have to share with you both that earlier today when Brandy was walking in, we had just gotten a shipment of cat food. And it had been outside. It's like freezing cold in Kansas City right now. So Norman opened up the cat food for the cats.

Was it Smalls? Huh? Is this an ad for Smalls? This is not an ad. This is not an ad. smalls this is not an ad this is not an ad i was like i am not participating in your ad reads ladies now ellen can you confirm that you love this cat food norm was very concerned about the cats having you know cat food that was too cold, so he decided to microwave it, all right? Imagine the scent.

Okay, now, I'm no saint. I see an obvious joke, and I try not to make the obvious joke, but Norm walks by me and Brandy with two dishes of steamy cat food, fragrant cat food. Micgrant cat food. Microwaved cat food. Disgusting. And of course I had to mention Brandy's vagina. Of course.

Of course she did. Of course I had no choice. And I feel like you're doing that to us now. You're bringing up the bush. The guy bent over. Here he comes. I mean, what are you expecting of us? Wow.

It's low-hanging fruit, but we're only human. Microwaved cat food is what Vincent Price was talking about in the Michael Jackson thriller video when he mentioned the funk of 40,000 years. That is what that is. Absolutely. That is disgusting. And that's how we describe Brandy's vagina, the funk of 40,000 years. I did read that on Reddit, actually. I just...

I was like, you guys, let's keep it classy, but also agreed. Agreed, right? Yeah. All right, let's move on from my vagina, please. Way into the Australian bush. That's right. My vagina, please. Way into the Australian bush.

That's right. Over the following days, Carolyn told the police that she and Julian were just making their way through this bushland and that the days were hot. The sun was blistering. But then the nights would be so cold and they were naked. And all they had was this one sleeping bag. So they had to huddle together for warmth. And they were constantly terrified that their attacker was going to be, you know, like, finding them, that they were going to accidentally run into them.

On top of that, the bush was fucking full of spiders and venomous snakes and fucking jacked-ass kangaroos. Yeah. Yeah. Jacked-ass kangaroos. Jacked-ass kangaroos.

Joey's Grindr username. But I'm just going to say one word, and I just want to see your reaction, because if you give me a reaction, you know what it is. Soaking. Oh, I 100% know what soaking is. Yes. Don't tell me that he was like, you know what will really keep us warm. So we'll get there. Oh.

We'll get there. Oh. Right now, right now, Carolyn's just telling her account, and they are huddled together at night in that one sleeping bag, their naked bodies pressed together for warmth. The warmest part of your body. Do you know what the warmest part of your body is? Second to the inside of your mouth? It has to be your undercarriage, right?

Your neck, right? The titties. Oh. You can't say breasts or boobs. It's the titties. Oh. Yeah.

The titties. I was thinking it was like the downstairs area because his heat radiates off that thing. My titties are on fire. All right. Which is my Grindr username.

Kind of normal temp, I think. Joey has left the building. You all. He's left entirely. Randy just legit took her two hands and rubbed in an inward motion. Mine are, hold on one second. Can you get that?

Yeah. I'm going to double check if you could get that. Yep. 97.4. Yeah. 97.4 on the titties. Y'all are nasty. Yeah.

Joey, I recorded our pre-roll chat. So do not make me put that out to the people because we will all lose our credibility. Y'all all need to get right with Jesus. That's right. Go ahead. So Carolyn continues on about their experience here. And at one point she said that they had gotten so turned around that they had accidentally returned to the clearing where they'd first been held. So Julian notices something as they like

come back to that area, something that they had missed before. He spotted what he thought was some fabric. And sure enough, it was their clothes, the clothes the attacker had cut off of them. So at this point, they were able to kind of partially put some clothing on as they recovered their clothing that had been cut off. What is this lube doing here? There's your shirt. That's your Old Navy shirt and gentle glide. Oh my gosh, what did he do with this?

Do you have any ideas? Wait a minute. What is this? Oh my God, do with this? Do you have any ideas? Wait a minute. What is this? Oh my God, what is this? There's no water here, but here's a small bottle of poppers. I wonder how... Goodness me. Oh my God.

What is this? Anal beads. I don't know. Is this a necklace? Is this your necklace? Is this your necklace? Is this your necklace? Why does this necklace smell like shit? Wow. Hmm.

Strange. Now, I do have an on-topic question, Brandy. Okay. You said the attacker cut the clothes off of these people. Yeah. Where are the cuts in Julian's clothes? That's a good question and not one that I have the answer to, Kristen. I'm very sorry.

It is a good question, though. Because, yeah, I'm guessing that Carolyn's cut just straight down the middle, right? So she's kind of got like a cardigan situation now, right? Yeah, that's what I'm picturing. Julian probably got like one slice on the side. Yeah, I'm just asking if you're cutting your own clothes, it's going to be a little more obvious. But, you know, anyhow. Okay.

All right. So it was shortly after they were able to find some of this clothing that they wandered out onto that road and they were rescued by that farmer. So then the police sit down with Julian. And Julian's account was very consistent with Carolyn's, aside from that time where he had been unconscious. He didn't know any of the driving stuff. He didn't know how they'd ended up in that clearing. He just, you know, came to and knew, could just sense that Carolyn was somewhere nearby because of their, on account of their love.

Got it. Obviously. Yeah. Yeah. So police were like, all right, first stop is finding that clearing so we can see if there's anything that was left behind. Find some evidence. Find something that will lead us to who had done this.

And they actually were able to. They made it to that clearing. They found where it was and they recovered a bunch of stuff. A shovel, some duct tape, bits of rope, some of the cut clothing. And they took it, you know, back to the lab in Australia. Tell them the other things. Yeah. The DVD of Shaving Ryan.

Oh, the dildo and the anal beads. Yeah. Those are Scorcher and Shitty Necklace. I mean, come on. And a VHS copy of Showgirls. Really weird. Yeah. What are we doing with this?

We don't know. So weird. And some edibles. Side note. Do you all remember? Did you ever watch Showgirls on VH1? No. Oh, yeah.

Because they would put computer-generated bras over their breasts. Yes. Yes. Anyway, that's the end of that story. Keep going, Brandi. So they've got all this evidence back at the lab, and they're able to determine that it all belonged to the same person and that person was julian buckwell of course get out of here yeah the twist would have been

the pastor no shit right yeah that was the sneaky thing that kept sneaking into my brain but then i was like these are just not smart criminals. Yeah. Yeah. Of course it all belonged to him. So police bring Julian back in for questioning and they pressed him and they pressed him about it. He's sticking to his story. And then they're like, hey, we need to take pictures of the injury to the back of your head.

When they knocked you out, we need to get a picture of that. And he was like, yeah, yeah, no, that's fine. Except there was no fucking injury to the back of his head. So finally, under the pressure of questioning, Julian confessed that he was the one behind the attack on

Carolyn. Wow. He had planted all of the stuff for this ahead of time. He had written those notes that would be sent to the two families. What the fuck? This had been long planned. Everything that the attacker had done to Carolyn had been Julian. And the digging that Carolyn had heard was him burying a bunch of evidence that linked him to this.

Oh. Oh. What a dumb dumb. Was it literally just to lay with her naked that was his motive we'll get there so when the attacker had walked away when carolyn was like oh my gosh i'm here by myself and then all of a sudden she hears julian's voice he had gone off he had hidden his car and cut his own clothes off and then tied himself up and he'd come in and pretended to discover carolyn and rescue her he said initially that his motive behind this was just because

he wanted to spend a little time with his girlfriend just like a little bit extra time oh that's so sweet yeah so he just want to spend a little bit extra time. Just totally traumatize her and scare the shit out of all her family, her loved ones, everybody. Yep. Has this man ever heard of bumper cars? Has he never heard of payroll? Has he never heard of affairs? Is there not something y'all could go to a Chili's? Have you a nice Cajun chicken pasta?

You don't need to kidnap your girlfriend in order to spend time with her. What the fuck? Is it weird that I would commit a similar crime but in the opposite vein? I would go on. Just to get like a little free time? Yeah. I'd be like, how? How do I get kidnapped?

What bush do I need to be a part of in order for you to just leave me alone for a little bit? Because I said once a week is plenty. Wow. And I don't need to see you every day. We could talk after the episode. Ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, theys and thems, Ellen Marsh is single. And broken. Beyond repair.

Important designation. Listen to our podcast. It's a blast. So then they go back and they talk to Carolyn again. Now Carolyn is privy to like that Julian was behind this whole thing. And she's like, oh, my gosh. Like the whole time that we're naked, like when we're laying together at night, he pressured me the whole time to have sex. He told us it would keep us warm.

And like when she said no to that, he then would be like, well, you know, we might die out here. So we should get married in the eyes of the Lord. So let's have a private marriage, just the two of us. And again, Carolyn was like, no, I could never do that to my parents. Like I couldn't get that to my parents. Like, I couldn't get married without my parents. And like, God, God knows God's got us. God's going to save us from this.

We're good. We do not need to have sex. We do not need to get married. And like he over this six day period, he keeps pushing her and pushing her and pushing her to have sex. And she said she says no every single time. And so then finally on the sixth day, he's like, well, I guess I'm guess i'm not gonna fuck so he's like let's find our way out of here he had a fucking map the whole time what okay he got them out of there am i taking us too far am i am i interjecting too much you guys can tell me to shut the fuck up no you're good no i would like to propose a

perspective and just zoom out for a minute. Okay. And there are men that can't even return a text message. Right? This is an interesting take, Ellen. Listen, I'm just saying the trauma is there.

I understand kidnapping is wrong. All of that is wrong. But if you find the romance in this. Oh, my God. Sure. And that all he wanted to do was be with her. And he was willing to go through all these steps. I can't even get a man to buy me a second round sometimes.

And that's on me. And that's something I need to unpack. But I would like to say a different version of this story could be very romantic. And now's a good time to say this episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Promo code LGTC.

Help, help, help. Exclamation mark, exclamation mark. You know, I just want to say here too, like, first of all, let's just remove their age for a second because he was what? He was 20 years old at this? No, no, no. He's 22. She's 17.

So I don't know what the age of consent is in Australia. Okay. I don't either. Yeah. But let's just forget their ages for a second. Purity culture is so insidious. I'm not saying that we can blame it all on this, but there is a psychology behind telling people,

like making sex so evil, making it so wrong, riddling kids with guilt instead of educating them on how to be responsible people who do engage in sex acts, how to take care of themselves and the psychology behind it. It's just so dark that this guy felt in his head because he carried it out that he was like, the only way I could get someone to have sex with me is through kidnapping her and putting her in what she thinks is a life or death situation. Granted, I'm not saying like, it's her right. She didn't want to have sex.

Take no for an answer, my guy. But this guy was so twisted about sex and what it means to be a consenting adult having sex that he decided the best route was to fake a kidnapping. It's just so dark. Is this a weird take? No, no, I totally agree. I think this is so based in purity culture. I completely agree.

But also, regardless of whether or not you're embedded in purity culture or not, take no for an answer. No is a full sentence. No is no. And if you really love someone, you will respect that. Because maybe even, let's take God out of it. Maybe she's not emotionally ready.

Maybe she's not comfortable in her body. Maybe she, whatever the answer is, it's a no. Whatever the reason is, it's a no. You need to respect that, my guy. Absolutely. But also in the same vein, when you make something so taboo and so off limits you want it more taking away that he's 20 years old and he's horny as fuck and he wants to have sex because that is a basic usually not with some people there are some people that are asexual but

generally your basic human emotion is to want to be physical with somebody and that's fine. So getting to that place where it's so naughty, it's so taboo, it's so off limits, it just makes you want it. And also it creates a warped view of sex.

It's very warped. Yes. Again, I'm not saying this guy's actions are not justified in any way, shape, or form. No, of course, of course. No, I'm not saying like this guy's actions are not justified in any way, shape or form. No, of course. But I'm just saying like someone who could carry that out. Unless you think it's like kind of romantic. Like Ellen does. Which, by the way, we have let her go from the police force.

Okay, we can't handle that. He had to make some plans. You know, he didn't just go on a resi app. He made some plans. He had maps. He had to make some plans. You know, he didn't just go on a Resi app. He made some plans. He had maps. He had duct tape. But this guy made this plan and carried it out. It's like, that is wild.

And Carolyn had no fucking idea. That poor baby. She really thought her life was at risk. She's terrified for her life. Her cortisol levels are raised. She is probably, you know, physically drained. That is living in fear for six days straight. I mean, of course, there are people who do it for much longer.

But that is so unhealthy. Also, can I just say too, sorry, I keep interjecting. I have so much respect for the amount of self-respect she has. She's like, I'm in a life or death situation. I don't care. I am going, these are my beliefs. You are not going to pressure me. Like, it's kind of amazing.

I think it is amazing. I really agree. Yeah. I think also. But also maybe the D wasn't. Shut up, Ellen. He fucked up taking his clothes off. You know, she saw what he was working with and was not interested.

Listen, they're disgusting. Ew. Get that away from me. I don't want to touch that. I don't care how cold it is. No, you sleep outside the sleeping bag. I'm going to sleep in the sleeping bag. You take that thing somewhere else.

I don't know. Figure out what you're going to do with that thing. A little garden snake. Go ahead with your thought, Kristen. I think Ellen thing somewhere else. I don't know. Figure out what you're going to do with that thing. Garden snake. Go ahead with your thought, Kristen. I think Ellen's done for the rest of the episode. Oh, shit. It was a brilliant thought, too. Wow.

What was I going to say about this lady? Oh, shit. Okay. Brandy, I hear what you're saying about she didn't know that it was him. Yeah, and obviously. To me, the only thing that could be wilder than, oh my gosh, we've been kidnapped by someone, is my boyfriend did this to me. That would be too much to handle on top of everything that's already going on. But I do think there's something to the

fact that she kept saying no to him for six days i think on some gut level i don't know or suspected maybe not new or suspected even but just knew this is not this is not the guy this is not the guy at all and like i will never be ready for this guy yeah i agree it's possible six days they were naked wandering the wilderness for six days if i were her and i'm like i can't believe this guy is still trying to get me to have sex with him when i am neither of us have showered we are we haven't eaten we have blisters on. And he is still actively trying to have sex with me? Gross. You are an asshole.

Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm not fucking anywhere where there's those Australia spiders. Absolutely not. Absolutely not.

And Brandy, you're a never nude. So let's just, you know. That's true. I would have just ceased to exist at the moment my clothes were cut off. Listen, there's no bathroom. What'd she dye her nudity? There's no bathroom in the bush to fart. Nudity!

That's right! At this point, I'm full of farts because I have no bathroom to fart in. I'm like Marge in Harry Potter. I've blown up and I'm about to float away because all my farts are trapped inside of me. and I'm about to float away because all my farts are trapped inside of me. Okay, so it comes out finally that Julian has fabricated this whole thing. He set this whole thing up.

And after his confession, Julian was charged with kidnapping, abduction with the intent to marry, and a smattering of other charges. That's a charge? Abduction with intent to marry. Yeah, that's an official charge. Wait, so that means there's like case law?

Like that means like- Apparently, in Australia, yeah. Wow. Okay, this is kind of a country bumpkin thing, but now I mean, this is where my people come from. You know, that was a thing, like steal the bride. Yeah. Did you see Seven Brides for Seven Brothers?

Yeah, that the bride. Yeah. I'm sorry for making that face. Did you see Seven Brides for Seven Brothers? Yeah, that is wild. Julian, if you can hear this, you're an asshole. He's on the five. He's on the $5 level. What a dickhead. He loves our bonus episodes. I just keep thinking it's like landing on me more and more because I'm like, you have traumatized this person. If I were her, I'd be like, who can I

trust? Right. Okay, so this is really where my international disclaimer comes in because I was not able to find any coverage of Julian's trial, but these are the things that I know. Good thing we're not, let's go to court. The jury

Jesus. Drag her! The jury heard Carolyn's account of the whole traumatic ordeal, including the fact that she had substantial lasting injuries to her neck, back and hands from being hogtied and thrown in the backseat for six hours. Yeah. And I believe, this is what I've pieced together, that the defense's take on this whole thing was that it was like, this has just really been blown out of proportion here. Julian was just a bit misguided in his attempt to spend a little extra time with his beloved girlfriend, the woman he wanted to marry. Oh, we've all been there.

Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Everybody calm the fuck down. He just wanted to hang out with his girlfriend. Just she's being a hysterical woman. Right. This falls under case law of the people versus all the hysterical women.

Yeah. C4. That is wild to me. That is absolutely wild. Wait, you know, wait, so you said she had, did you say she had permanent damage? She has, yeah, lasting injuries to her neck, back, and

hands from being hogtied and in that position for so long. Have you been following the Ruby Frank case? Yes, yes. So that's a real thing because her son has like a permanently messed up shoulder beanbag chair or one of the ways he was held. Yeah. And I remember thinking like, oh, it was not a short amount of time.

Obviously, she abused her children, but it does not take much to hurt your body permanently from sitting in that position for so long. Yeah. That is so tragic. Yeah. So in August of 2009, the jury found Julian Buchwald guilty of kidnapping and his sentencing was set for September with Julian being allowed to remain out on bond until then. But the day of sentencing came and Julian was nowhere to be found.

He was in the bush. Right. Give me a fucking break with this stuff. So authorities later learned that Julian had managed to obtain an Indian passport and he had fled the country. He dyed his hair black, applied several layers of self-tanner, doctored an Indian passport with a picture of his new look, and boarded

a plane for India. This disguise was so terrible. It was all splotchy. I mean, he was in brownface. And it was all splotchy. It's like Countess de la Seppes when she dressed up as Diana Ross. Somehow.

That's what the TSA agent said. That is. That is. Yeah. It's an official quote in here. This is post 9-11. This is 2008. How on earth would he have gotten a fake passport?

Well, I guess regulations have changed with like the holograms and stuff. I guess that's. Yes, they have. Yeah. So he managed to get out of Australia, but his disguise was so bad that he was detained immediately upon landing in India. It's believed that he was trying to make his way to Germany where he was born and where he still had some family.

But he was promptly shipped back to Australia. Once back in Australia, Julian learned that he had been sentenced in absentia to seven years and three months for the kidnapping. Is that all? Wow. Seven years and three months. And it was only like the minimum requirement was that he would have to serve five years of that before being eligible for parole.

Six months was then added to that minimum sentence for the fleeing the country. But Julian Buchwald wasn't done. He appealed his sentence. He argued that there had been a great miscarriage of justice because the trial judge had issued improper directions to the jury and the judge had improperly intervened during some cross-examination. He also argued that his sentence was manifestly excessive. Oh, those are two very important words, but don't make sense when put together. Right. Yeah. So in December of 2011, the Court of Appeal judges Marcia Neve, Robert Redlich, and Hartley Hansen rejected Julian's appeal. Thank God.

They found that, yes, they found that there had been no substantial miscarriage of justice and that the prosecution's case had been overwhelming. They also believed that the sentence he received was well within range. He had been facing up to 20 years. And he got seven. Yeah. That is more than fair, sir. Yeah. Calm down. Totally agree. Totally agree. Justice Hansen said aspects of Julian's scheme were, quote, amateurish in the extreme, in particular, the failure to devise any plausible motive to explain why unknown persons would have kidnapped both of them. I like that.

At this point, did he have to issue an apology to those mystical neo-Nazis? Say, sorry, I dragged you boys into this. I did not. I did not come across any apologies to the Nazis. The Satanists were like, I told you, we don't do that. We would never. Wow. Wow. Yeah. The justices went on to say the applicant nevertheless exhibited significant planning and forethought designed to achieve his goal of spending an extended period of time alone with the victim, while at the same time avoiding her recognizing him as the kidnapper.

recognizing him as the kidnapper. Also, as the trial judge found, the applicant generally knew from his maps where they were throughout and at any time could have ended the ordeal. Yet he chose to perpetuate the terrifying charade for his own perverse gratification. In short, the offending was premeditated, calculated, and prolonged.

Wow. Yep, yep, yep. Yep. I'm just saying, I was married to a man who shopped for my Christmas presents on Christmas Eve every year. So the planning is kind of hot to me. The bar is low, y'all.

It's quite low. It's so low, so low. Yeah. This man's got to be out by now. Ellen, you available? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. You want to hear?

Let's hear more. Listen, I know you're kind of creepy, but you're also a planner. And I think that's hot. And that's so hot. So Julian's appeal is denied. He remains in prison. At this particular time. As I mentioned, though, Julian was appeal is denied. He remains in prison. At this particular time. As I mentioned, though, Julian was born in Germany, but he had moved to Australia when he was just a year old.

He did not have Australian citizenship. Citizenship. That's like citizenship. Australian citizenship. Citizenship. Australian citizenship. Citizenship. Turns out he didn't have Australian citizenship, but he did hold a permanent residency visa.

But in 2014, the Immigration and Border Protection Department told Julian that his permanent residency visa was under review. Fair. So Julian responded by showing that he had job offers pending his release. He had a spotless record before this whole, you know, kidnap ploy. All of his life, his friends, his family were in Australia. He had no knowledge of Germany at all. He'd left there when he was a year old. He didn't know anybody there. He didn't know the language.

He didn't know life there. But his appeal was rejected. And in October of 2014, the immigration minister, Scott Morrison, canceled. Wow. Good. Mm hmm. As soon as he was going to be released, he would be shipped out of Australia. So, again, Julian appealed this to the federal court before Justice Morty Bromberg. But it was determined there was no argument for an appeal because the immigration minister had acted within the law. If Julian had applied for citizenship before this whole thing,

like it would have been granted. He would have met all of the requirements. Of course, yeah. But he never did. And so in 2016, following his release from prison, he was shipped to Germany. Wow, they were like,

you're Germany's problem now. And you know what they don't have in Germany? Bush. There's no Bush out there. Yeah, there's a waxing salon on every corner. Oh, my goodness. Do we have any updates as to where Julian is today? Or Carolyn, did he change his name?

Did he put on any self-tanner and try and move somewhere? I was not able to find anything on Julian as of today and it does not appear as far as I was able to find that Carolyn has ever spoken publicly about this case. Wow, I don't blame her.

I don't blame her either. No, yeah. So I hope she is doing well. I can't even imagine the trauma this would have caused her. Yeah. That's the story of a kidnapping. Kidnapping.

Kidnapping. Kidnapping. Kidnapping. It's a kidnapping. Medic! Can we get a medic? Australian style! Okay, now, how bad does the self-tanner

application have to be for them to just be like, no, sir, get the hell out of here? Yeah. Because you know TSA has seen some shit. Right. So that had to be like, no, sir, get the hell out of here. Yeah. Because you know TSA has seen some shit. Right. So that had to be really piss poor.

Yes. That's not normal. I'm sure they were like, get your racist ass out of here. We want nothing to do with you. You showed up in brown face. What the fuck? Did anyone see Robert Downey Jr. in Tropic Thunder? It's giving.

Really insensitive. That is a fascinating story. I love that it wasn't dark. I mean, I am very sorry for Carolyn's trauma. Of course. And I'm sure with things like that, it's like, how many years was she associated with that story? Because clearly it's so well known that your listener knew about it. It's in the sort of true crime space.

And poor thing was like, I just wanted to not have sex with my boyfriend. Did you say that the story? I just wanted to wait to get married. Did you say the story wasn't that dark? Nobody died. You know, I. Yes. I like it when nobody dies.

This shit is pretty dark, Yellen. It's pretty dark. It is dark, of course. But you know what I mean? Like, everybody survived, which is more than I can say for this episode. Because I'm sure people had turned it off 12 minutes in. And it's only because we're here. I totally understand where you're coming from.

Every podcast has just a terrible person on board. And Brandy just, she'll waltz in here. Hey, how you doing? Oh, yeah, I've got a story to tell. Family Annihilator. Just terrible stuff. And so, yeah. That's my favorite case.

That's my favorite type of case. Then somehow, a case like this, we're like, oh, a light one. A refreshing. Right. We's my favorite type of case. Then somehow, a case like this, we're like, oh, a light one. A refreshing. We are so. A refreshing tale. We are so fucked up. It's like stray dog syndrome. It's like me being like, whoa, how tall was he?

Oh my God. Is it? I mean, because I feel like I could find a sweeter side of him. Oh, God. Yes. Ellen turns into Coldplay and she's like, I will try to fix you. Oh, God. You know how it goes?

It goes like the earth and then the earth's crust. What's below the earth's crust? A ****. Yeah, that's where my standards are. And now we're back from the ad. Doo-doo. This case was wild. Yes.

Yeah, it was nutso bananas, as I like to say. Also, you guys are such great storytellers. I feel like I was like, God, I wish I did this all the time because I love engaging. But it's like I don't have to read it. So it's like you're my own Wikipedia. So I'm like, God, I wish I did this all the time because I love engaging. But it's like I don't have to read it. So it's like you're my own Wikipedia. So I'm like, just tell me a story. You're both so. Absolutely.

I'll be like, you guys, I don't want to research this. Can you do it? And just like, tell it to me. Tell it to me. Any day. That's right. Anytime you want, Ellen. Okay.

Now we do have a thing that we'd like to do if you guys have time. So at the end of every episode, we ask our Discord if they have any questions for us. And we asked our Discord if they had questions for you two. So we picked four questions. Just four. Okay. Okay. I'm going to read you my favorite question first.

That's so sweet. You asked your Discord a bonus? They were so excited. Yeah, we did. They were so sweet. You asked your Discord a bonus? They were so excited. Yeah, we did. They were so excited. Join our Patreon at the $5 level or higher to get into our Discord, get the bonus episodes, get the Zoom calls, get all the things. All right.

That was a good plug. There we go. Okay. You too. Broadway performers, here's the question for you. Elderly Bigfoot wants to know, is it ever okay to eat during a live performance? Does it depend on how many people are in attendance? As an audience member, is it okay?

Yeah. No. Let me tell you something. I remember, I don't remember what show I was in, but there, oh, it was Rock of Ages. And there was a person on the front row eating ice during a scene. And it was so loud and it was infuriating because it's just clear. And we're trying to do this scene. There was like not a lot of meat to that show.

It was like the one scene where there's like a little bit of meat. And I'm like, Sherry, how could you do this? And so, no, the answer is no. And do not unwrap a candy. Oh my gosh. It's the worst. Yep. Joey, so when you said they were on the front row, were they just like planking on the seats?

They were just on the front row like that, like laying across or how were they on the- You're not better than me. You've never been better than me. You never will be better than me. Look at you. You got a cone on your head. You look like flashing lights on a highway.

You know better than me. I just want to know how you get to be on the front row. Just... You know, I agree with Joey. I think the thing, when you're on Broadway, I think the thing that people don't realize is we can see you. We can see clear to the back.

If we're looking, you know, like you kind of do a thing when you're performing. You kind of haze it out when you're in the moment. But if you're sitting and you're not doing anything, I'm like, look at look at three rows back, four seats in. We can see everything. And we have seen everything. I was going to say, you ever seen anybody given a handy? No, but we have seen people make out. We've seen people throw up. We've seen we have seen everything. I was going to say, you ever seen anybody given a handy? No, but we have seen people make out. We've seen people throw up.

We've seen it all. But when you're at like our live show, I want you to be, that is like. People are giving handies there? We give handies. God, I hope so. Sorry, it's me giving out the handies. The general admission, the VIP, and then the handy. Yeah.

And sure, you have to pay extra, but it's there. What do you think, Warry Animals? What do you think, we're not going to offer? What do you think, we're not going to make our listenership happy? Of course we are. We're going to do whatever we can. We're needy. We're needy people.

Ellen has weak wrists. We're working. Also, if you are recording, she is constantly working as a zucchini. Also, if you're holding up. What kind of job am I giving? I'm not giving. Look at these wrists. Not to completion.

That's not a job. That's a project. Yeah. Not to completion. Also, if you are holding your phone up and recording, we see it. The reflection from the phone with the lights, we see it. It's actually infuriating as well. Did not ask this question.

And so feel free to tell me to, you know, go kick rocks. One time when I was in Pretty Woman, we had a passerelle and a passerelle is like the stage is here and then it kind of comes out sort of in like a U and the pit is there. So the passerelle goes out to the audience. And this was in 2019. I can't remember what kind of we were just a little on edge. Something big had just happened. It wasn't Sandy Hook. It was something else. I can actually feel it right now. Just even thinking about it. I had my friend Brian and my friend Jake on either side of me and someone I can see it in my in my mind's eye right now pulled out a phone and I thought it was a gun. Oh, and when I literally my heart is racing thinking about it and my friend Brian and I went like and I fell back and I grabbed his arm.

He goes, you OK? I can't even describe that immediate anxiety because I saw it and I saw it flash and my imagination and my anxiety because that is something that like we go through a safety training when you enter a new theater. How easy would that be for an active shooter? Yeah. Yeah. To kill everyone on stage. It's terrifying.

Yeah. You know, good ideas, Ellen. Thanks a lot. No, I mean, it is something that it is. I have had that nightmare and I will never forget that day. that it is a I have had that nightmare yeah and I will never forget that day and and I couldn't bring myself down from where like my adrenaline had taken it was a split second it was like a it was from here to it was just the um reflection for a second and look at my arm I literally have chills just like thinking about it because you're so vulnerable. But that person didn't know it was during the finale.

We were taking our bows. It's perfectly acceptable to film that. But that's sort of like, you know, where we are and we do. We see everything. I'm glad you brought us on our comedy podcast. That took a dark turn. Let's just talk about active shooters. One of your most traumatizing moments, Ellen.

Any more questions, Kristen? Do you want to talk about my dad leaving my family? Well, Brandi's going to rub that in at the very end. She's just going to be like, and by the way, I have a dad. I've got some stuff saved. You know, you've got a stepdad too. Okay, Sir I Want to Buy These Shoes wants to know, if you had to experience one, would you rather have a frogger or a neighbor from Fear Thy Neighbor?

It would have to be Fear Thy Neighbor because someone living in my house, I don't know what I would do. I truly don't. I can call the police on a neighbor. I don't know. I can set up cameras. I don't know. Someone living in my house. No.

No, sir. Frogging is terrifying to me. Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to agree with Joey. The neighbor, you can at least shut the door. But Fear Thy Neighbor was some of our most terrifying episodes. Those people were fearful, which really is a great title because it's fear.

I fear it. And the neighbor. Frogging is a no from me, dog, for sure. OK, Doppen Ditz wants to know what I think not episode would you recommend for a new listener? So there's like two people in our discord who was like, we're like, I haven't listened yet. So now let's help them out. what's a great episode to start with do you guys have a favorite i hate myself every episode sure i sit there and i say i don't know how we have listeners i don't know how we have loyal fans i hate myself why do i do this and and then i sit back and i do it again i think our frogging episodes even though it's terrifying, because I really do. Listen, I love true crime.

I really do. But I have a sort of angel devil thing about it because I am also very emotional and I get very wrapped up in cases sometimes. And please enjoy when I cry on our comedy podcast. sometimes and please enjoy when I cry on our comedy podcast and I do feel a sense of that like we can be a little bit sillier when I know nobody is genuinely physically hurt I think Joey

and I really thrive in episodes like we covered a series called Pink Collar Crimes on our Patreon and again it's like you know an accountant who cooked the books and things like that so coupon clippers yes and so I think that You know, an accountant who cooked the books and things like that. Coupon clippers. Yeah.

Yes. Yes. And so I think that we also love covering stories that people who normally wouldn't absorb or take in a story because it's too dark. And we sort of we don't go into graphic detail. That's not really our jam. So I think we do a good job on the darker ones. But I think we really thrive in the more the darker ones, but I think we really thrive in the more light-hearted ones. Do you agree, Joey? I think frogging is a great place to start because

it is just wild. And we laugh through a lot of them, but people love to hate the frogging episodes. So I would say start with frogging. But thank you for even wanting to be a listener. And if you like us,

great, and if you don't, please don't tell me because I can't handle it. That's fair. We make the same request. Absolutely. Last question.

This one comes from Norsten and Bravid and it's for Joey. What would the Holy Ghost tell our gals? Well, he would say, can Patty put reverb on my Holy Ghost? I think Patty can. Joey, it's me, the Holy Ghost.

I've been trying to get through to Kristen and Brandy ever since they refused to sign those purity contracts. I've been watching you both. You both have filthy mouths. Everything that comes out of your mouth is a lie and everything that goes in it is a dick. I mean, you can't argue with the Holy Ghost. Anyway, bye.

That is a quote. If anybody can name what that quote is from, everything that comes out of your mouth is a lie and everything that goes in it is a dick, you will win my respect. Someone will know. I know it, but I can't place it. I knew it as soon as you said it. The person responds, everything that goes in is dicks? You know what it is.

That is the next line. What is it from? I don't know if that's the next line actually But it's from It's from This Is 40 Yes! Yes! Dear God

She's like What are you doing? Randy's known for her small reactions Help me Help me Can I just tell y'all again How much I love y'all Ellen and I adore you

You're both so good at your job And you're just fun And it's the best When you get y'all. Ellen and I adore you. You're both so good at your job and you're just fun. And it's the best when you're, you get to do something like this with people that you're like, I just want to sit and have some beers with you. Yeah. Which we will because we're coming to your live show. That's right.

Yes, you are. That's right. I would say come to their live show, but it's sold out bitches. Oh my gosh. Oh, we can't wait. Thank you for doing this with us, guys.

This has been so fun. Pleasure is all ours. Thank you for letting us, your podcast has now jumped the shark. You've kept this podcast going for so long. That's right. And this is where the ratings go down. They're like,

how do we have a 4.3 now, Joey and Ellen? Can you tell the people where to find you all, where to find your stuff, all of that? Go ahead, baby. Well, you can find us on all of your podcast platforms at, you know, I Think Not. You can also find us on

social media on all platforms at I Think Not Pod. You can find me on Instagram at It's Joey Taranto, and you can find Yellen at Ellen, Ellen with a Y, Ellen Marsh. And in case you were wondering, by the end of this episode, I'm still gay.

In fact, I'm gayer than ever. And did you want to give out your Grindr name? We also have a tour coming up. We are coming to, so far we're coming to a bunch of cities. I don't know. They're going to be changing. We're coming to like, you know, D.C.,

L.A. I think we're going to Denver, Orlando. We're not going to Denver. St. Louis. But we really would love for you to come to our live show. That is really where we thrive. We're old Broadway nerds.

So, yeah. And we also have a really fun Facebook group. It's lots of fun, really supportive, and we love engaging with you. And thank you for trusting us with your amazing listeners. And you guys can gossip about us

on your Discord, but know that we really appreciate it because we are such big fans of you guys. We had so much fun on our last episode. And if you want to catch Brandy and... Oh, it's going to be on your feed. Yeah.

Yeah. We're going to put it on our feed. Yeah. So edit that, Patty. Yeah. We really are. We're so excited for your live show. So excited.

We are nervous as hell. Oh, you're going to kill it. But we are also excited. But we're excited that you two will be there eating ice in the front row. In the front row. Just chomping. On the front row. On the front row.

That's right. I'm going to put Just chomping. On the front row. On the front row. That's right. I'm going to put my warm boots on you. No, we appreciate you all so much. Ellen's going to be opening candies. You two are both so funny.

You're great podcasters. You're great people. So we really appreciate you doing this with us. This is really fun. And thank you for taking the time to do this with us. We know your time

is very valuable. Oh, please. We love you. We always got time for you, baby. We do. Thank you so much. Thank you so much, Ellen and Joey, for being here today. Thank you to the listeners for listening to another episode. We appreciate you so much. If you're looking for other ways to support us, please find us on social media. We're on Facebook,

Twitter, Instagram, Patreon. Please remember, subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen, and then head on over to Apple Podcasts, Leave us a five star rating and review and then be sure to join us next week. When I'll be an expert on a whole new topic. Podcast adjourned. Set in perfect unison. And now for a note about our process. I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts.

on the web, and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. I got my info from an episode of Case File, ABC News, The Age, The Herald Sun, and the Sydney Morning Herald. For a full list of our sources, visit lgtcpodcast.com. Any errors are, of course, ours, but please don't take our word for it. Go read their stuff. Whew. All right. And that's it. We're done. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.