Lex Fridman Podcast - #343 – Roger Gracie: Greatest Jiu Jitsu Competitor of All Time

Starting point is 00:00:00 The following is a conversation with Hodger Gracie, widely considered to be the greatest jiu-jitsu competitor of all time. And now a quick few second mention of each sponsor, check them out in the description, it's the best way to support the spa gas. We got Bambi for HR services, Miz and Amain for style, Blinkist for nonfiction, and Athletic Greens for Nut flat green for nutrition. Delicious nutrition. Choose wisely my friends.

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Starting point is 00:02:29 dress shirts, and other men's wear that I'm currently wearing and I just popped my collar. Like just because I'm feeling pretty good about this. I'm feeling stylish, I'm feeling sexy. This feels like an SNL skit. What was it? When the guys like looking in the mirror and doing positive affirmations, I don't think I've ever looked in the mirror and said, boy, you're looking sexy today. The moment I am, I think I'm on a slippery slope to a place I don't want to be.

Starting point is 00:03:02 But anyway, so I'm obviously doing it just for jokes. It feels comfortable. I just like the way it feels. But anyway, so I'm obviously doing it just for jokes. It feels comfortable. I just like the way it feels. I like the way it looks. My favorite thing to wear is a suit and tie for more formal or for what I'm doing, more serious kinds of engagements like podcasts or presentations or just something I want to take super seriously.

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Starting point is 00:04:22 Boring a monotone, yes. Check, check, check, but not too quickly. I think because I'm really thinking on the spot a lot and I like the silence. I think the silence between words, at least for me, helps me think. It also helps calm down the pace of the conversation where the other person can think. Oftentimes the reason I'm talking is not necessarily to express an idea, like I really, really want to express an idea, but it's really to express an idea in the service of the conversation, in the service of inspiring the other person to build on top of that idea. I really don't just want to sound smart or say something that I believe needs to be said. Most of the time I'm trying to dance.

Starting point is 00:05:10 I'm trying to be a good dance partner. So anyway, all that said, the fuel, the catalyst for the being a good dance partner in conversation is wisdom. And I gain some of my wisdom to the small degree that I have it from reading books. And you can read them in full or you can read them in part, and that's where Blinkist comes in. Really the greatest of all time, summaries and nonfiction books, you can find anywhere. It's just incredible. I recommend it very highly. You can claim a special offer for savings if you go to blinkist.com slash Lex. This show is also brought to you by Athletic Greens and it's AG1 Drink, which is an all-in-one

Starting point is 00:05:53 daily drink to support better health and peak performance. All-in-one daily drink that I drink twice a day. So it's all-in one, but twice a day. But I think most people drink it once a day. But I have double the fun and double the deliciousness. Anyway, it's the way I guarantee to have like a nutritional basis on which I can do on top of which I can do all kinds of crazy stuff. All the nutritional diet stuff I do, whether it's eat once a day or fast or doing long runs like 12, 15 miles, doing long stretches of mental work, just all the crazy stuff I do. Or when I do carnivore, it just ensures that I'm getting the basic nutrients into my body.

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Starting point is 00:07:30 Let's start with possibly the greatest match in Gijitsu history, your second match against Puchesha. Let's go through the details. Let's go through the whole thing. So the walk leading up to it, you always do this walk. Epic walk. You post that on Instagram, hands up post that on Instagram. This calm walk towards the mat. Well, let's go to that match in particular.

Starting point is 00:07:48 What was going through your mind? You've been away from competition, facing probably one of the greatest and at that time, many people consider the greatest you just do. Competitor of all time in Bachecha. Here's the old man, the old timer, getting back out there. What were you thinking? Yeah. I think that's the old man, the old timer, getting back out there. What were you thinking? Yeah, I think that's the first time since probably I got my black belt that I was in the favorite walk into a fight.

Starting point is 00:08:11 I have to say, like a lot of people saw, consider him the favorite. I mean, understandable, you know, I was out of composition for a while, he was just winning everything. So, you know, saying about the walk, like for me, you know, the fight starts way before the referee say, go, you know, it's all the focus and concentration that I think is very important for me to start before, like, you know, I almost walk blind to the mat.

Starting point is 00:08:42 Many times I pass to like great friends and I couldn't see anyone, you know, they're trying to talk to you and I'm like I'm 100% focused on my opponent already, even though that I cannot even see him in front of me. So I think that's for me was always a very important to try to clear my mind out from everything. Are you visualizing the opponent? Not at that time. Right. Is there what's in your head? Is it like a calm river with birds chirping? What's the blank? Just blank darkness.

Starting point is 00:09:13 And that's what we see in that calmness. It's just blankness. How hard is it to achieve that blankness? It's difficult to say because I think I don't remember when I'll say probably as a black belt, I try to focus like that not to think because it's probably something you learn is the more you think the more nervous you get. And there's nothing that you're going to gain by thinking of the fight or the possibilities what, you know, what you can do, what can go wrong. What can go right because Isn't predictable is you have absolutely no idea is impossible to predict the fight and you discover that

Starting point is 00:09:51 If you just let those nervous feelings go and I'm to your mind it actually is pretty effective It is it makes you feel better. It's you know you you kind of control your motion control that adrenaline on your body up to a level So it absolutely helps you, you know, focusing the fight. I've learned that in Jiu-Jitsu and in general in life that whenever something feels really shitty, you can just like take that thought and not think about it. Like I do that like on long runs or like a fast run or yeah, in Jiu-Jitsu, especially when I get an older out of shape, like that feeling of exhaustion, well, you can always get to the feeling of exhaustion. You can just not think about it,

Starting point is 00:10:30 you know, not think about being exhausted, just and that somehow relaxes you. I think maybe in the face of exhaustion, all the fears start to creep in, maybe your muscles tighten up. I don't know, this is for the amateur, just a person. But it's kind of funny how you can just take that thought and let go of it. So you get as a black belt competitor, you get used to, you get good at letting go of any thoughts. Yeah. When you're mentioned to exhaustion is, I mean, that's some of the good example of it. It's, you know, there's a lot of times in the fight, you're getting tired and you're getting pretty tired. So it's like the last scene you want to think of it is how tired you are. It doesn't matter because it doesn't what you're going to quit. I mean, it doesn't matter.

Starting point is 00:11:17 It's how tired you are. It's no value thinking about it. It's no value. It's you just have to go through it. So when you're like, you know, many minutes into the match and you're slowly moving as you sometimes do, tying your belt, catching your breath, you're not thinking about anything. You're trying to let go of thinking. I'm trying to like to save everything to the fire. Like nothing goes to waste. It's, you know, every move unnecessarily, it's just gonna make some more tired or it's gonna take something out of you.

Starting point is 00:11:49 Like, you know, I try to calculate every single move I make, save as much energy as I can. So I can fully, you know, be focused 100% and the fight with no waste, especially anage-wise. And that's instinctual. Like minimizing the amount of moves, you're not like explicitly thinking, should I do this or not, it's just,

Starting point is 00:12:11 just don't move unless it's absolutely required. Yeah, because fight, you cannot really, there's not really time to think much. It's like, your instinct of playing is like, it's, you already have your have your weapons, let's say, the things that you do are, it's just the weight for the perfect moment. The beauty of it is, there's the right moment to everything. If you feel one second too late, it doesn't work, or you get messy.

Starting point is 00:12:39 So you're trying to catch that moment, and for it. You know, and for that, you have to be fully focusing on what you're doing because one second you're out. You won't work. But you're not exactly known as somebody that moves super quickly. So the so the moment it's not about how quickly you move, it's about the right moment. So you move slowly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's not like it's speed. It's not like you have to move the speed of light. It's the move itself at that precise moment. It doesn't have to be super fast because your opponent's not moving super fast. You know, so it's a combination of moving with you and you and him. I mean, the same thing happens in judo and the movement can be really small.

Starting point is 00:13:26 Yeah. At least. Judo is a bit more explosive now. You know, it's, it's, it's, it moves us slightly faster. So it, you know, it does require a bit more explosiveness in Judo. But even just the right timing for an off balance. It's still a little tough. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:13:43 Yeah. And it's not that, you know, moving the speed is not going to count that much. Yeah. It's the timing that you initiate that move. You see that with foot sweeps. There's nothing more beautiful than not like a Olympic level athlete going at it in the Olympics and a professional speech. And it's just, and you see one man's life flash before his eyes and realize, like, I'm supposed to be the top three person in the world that I just find. And they don't, they have this look on their face.

Starting point is 00:14:11 Like, I don't know what just happened. It's beautiful to see. You don't see that, I guess you see that in boxing knockouts and stuff like that. You don't know what the hell just happened. Yeah. Is that precise moment of movement that you get caught? Like, is that one split second? That's it. You get the angiogetsu at all because Jiro has because of the

Starting point is 00:14:33 explosiveness because of the points coin system that incentivizes these giant throws, has these moments where everything just turns on a single moment. Do you have the angiogetsu? really, because then it's points. Yes, you get like, you know, two points. So it's because I think regarding the submission, it's not just one precise movement that chains everything. I think judo is the take down that counts as a submission. Like hip-hop, fight over judo.

Starting point is 00:15:02 You don't have that. So you will score points, but I think in terms of submission, like hip-hop, fight over. Judges, you don't have that. So you will score points, but I think in terms of submission, you need to get to, in our dominant position first, and then the submission will come slowly. It's a process, yeah. Okay, let's go back to that guy with his mind. So actually, in the weeks leading up to it, in the days, in the hours, in the minutes, is there some fear in you leading up to this?

Starting point is 00:15:30 I mean, I'm not going to say that I'm fearless because everybody fears something. The fear is there, but it's like how much you let their control you. I think I was a lot more confident than fearful. For sure, walking to fight, like I was pretty confident that I could beat him. Where's the source of that confidence? My belief going on only this. Okay, I can take the word. That's what you can take anyone in the world, but is there a specific strategic, like, you know, talking to Donahar, he believes that there's no such thing as confidence, like, or rather, the way you get confidence

Starting point is 00:16:12 is through data, like that you have proven yourself effective in previous situations, but with Bouchesha, you don't, you don't have much data. It was a very, the first time you faced them, it was a very tough. That was also one of the greatest matches of all time. It was very tough. So, doesn't that creep in like that doubt? Because you don't have enough data to be confident based on that. Yeah, I mean,

Starting point is 00:16:41 okay, if I never had fought before, you you know suddenly walking to a fight with someone like that Then would I be that confidence? I mean probably no, you know so that history or you know We've been doing or being achieving those gives you confidence If it was my first fight ever I wouldn't probably I wouldn't be that long but the time off It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. You don't have the fear or the actual physical experience, the psychological experience

Starting point is 00:17:13 of being rusty, of being out of the competition. They will come out on training. So you, okay, you see, you simulate some aspect of that. The training, the training, we will tell you how you are. Did you increase the intensity of the training leading up to this? Yeah, I mean, I train normal. Let's say compared to the first fight, that the second was a lot more confidence because like I said, training, the training for the first fight, you were terrible. So what do you mean? I think I was focusing on MMA for a couple of months and that wasn't

Starting point is 00:17:47 really focusing the key. And you know, by this time I accepted fight and start training. Like all my responses on training were off. Like all my training partner that I use to train with that I destroyed. I mean, now they like they beat me. You know, it's like I cannot beat them the way I was used to. But you know, so I knew something was not right for the first fight. But then it's, you know, no points is submission or draw. So yeah, for people who don't know, it was in modern Morris, which is a 20-minute match submission only. So there's no, the winner's determined only by submission. Otherwise, it's a draw. So physically I was not myself on that fight. I was tired. My body wasn't responding anyway.

Starting point is 00:18:31 So the comfort that was different from the first, the second I think I was confident enough that I wouldn't get tapped out on the first that I was still going to fight because he has to talk me out to beat me and I trust on my defense. I'm confident enough for my defense that he will not talk me out. But in terms of winning, you know, walking to the second fight, I was a lot more confident. What can you say about that feeling when something's not right? It's not a thing that breaks people. It is we breaks.

Starting point is 00:19:02 It's we are thing that breaks people. It's weird breaks. It's weird. Like people crack, they give up, you know, this, it's, it's, it's a, it's a big test because it's, it's like being really tired. It's the same thing. It's like a lot of people crack because they just feel the kid not giving it more. There's not, there's nothing more to give. So they just like give up. It's too hard. So what do you do?

Starting point is 00:19:22 Just again, take the thoughts out. There's no giving up. I mean, I. So what do you do? Just again, take the thoughts out. There is no giving up. I mean, I don't, I don't care. Like you're just giving up. It's not not. It's not. That's always the way you thought. Yeah. The body is just. Yeah. I've never gave up. I mean, I tapped. It's, you know, not giving up. It's not not tapping. That's just stupid. Especially doing training. Like, I get caught by tap. I've never, ever hurt myself by not tapping. I get you get angry, you know, it's trying hard.

Starting point is 00:19:55 You know, improve, make yourself better. You got caught. Except that you made a mistake, give up, tap, then try harder. So, you know, not tapping, it's, you sacrifice in your body and, you know, you'll never be the same. Like, if you let your elbow pop, the elbow will never, ever be the same, ever. You let yourself go to sleep, your resistance drops. So, it's everybody has a, has a limit of resistance until they, you know, to resist the choke before you pass out. The moment that you go to sleep, that resistance will drop.

Starting point is 00:20:31 I've never heard anyone say that's awesome. That's true. So that's the reason, because people usually say it's... No, it's the same when you get knocked out. You get knocked out the first time your resistance dropped, your drug gets weaker. So just for the record, I've never got to sleep in it. Which means my resistance is high, right? I don't know. Must be. Oh, your difference is pretty good. I don't know about that. No, no, no. Because it doesn't make sense to me. Or maybe in my case I think my understanding of when I'm screwed is pretty good. Yeah. Like there's no you're no you're trouble. Yeah. One of the things I regret the most about my Gigi's journey is not having given enough time to being in really bad positions. Like the

Starting point is 00:21:21 better I got I think the less I started being in bad positions, which is just because you're spa. That's like the, that is how you train. Yeah. Because you used to just spa. When you spa, like it's difficult to to being bad positions a lot. You train with better people, but I mean, let's say five, it's six minute rows. How long you're going to be in a really bad position? Not long, right? So you don't really have time to develop. That's say five, it's six minute rolls. How long are you going to be in a really bad position? Not long, right? So you don't really have time to develop. That's why people, they don't, you know, they don't train being in bad position

Starting point is 00:21:53 because you have to stop there. Over and over again, to be used with. Yeah, or put yourself there. I just didn't have that mindset, I think. I think you start, I mean, part of the fun of digesters is you get better and better. You have certain people you go with. You have these puzzles that you've figured out, that you're playing very specific details.

Starting point is 00:22:12 You're working out. You're trying to improve your main techniques and so on. But yeah, just the percentage of time you spend being submitted or trying, even going against like lower ranks, trying to escape basic submissions slow. I don't know if that's true for most people, probably is, right? Most people have very bad defense. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:22:32 Because they don't allow themselves to be there, because I mean, who wants to get tapped? Because you will. Until you work on your defense, of course you're gonna get tapped or, you're not gonna escape, you're gonna struggle to escape. So people, they don going to get tapped for. You're not going to escape. You're going to struggle to escape. So people, they don't want to be there. I regret it most because of the effect it clearly had

Starting point is 00:22:53 on how I competed. It was clear that my competition was constantly driven by conservative thinking. Don't take risks. I think because of a weak defense, honestly. And I think a lot of the, any of the fear, like for example, exhaustion was accompanied by fear because of weak defense, I think.

Starting point is 00:23:17 If I were to psychoanalyze myself, and I regretted it, I regretted a lot. But speaking of which, I don't think anyone's ever submitted you in competition. So yours. Well, I was a juvenile, yes. Yes, so when you were a young person, six, that's still haunting.

Starting point is 00:23:40 No, it's, first I was winning that fight by a large. I mean I think by six points or four something like that But I was like I was don't remember it though. I did do too Yeah, you beat him again. He never competed again never compete it again. All right. Whoever you are, please, let's do a podcast. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

Starting point is 00:24:06 I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

Starting point is 00:24:14 I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

Starting point is 00:24:22 I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I should not submit you. The words that are confidence grounded, and what do you attribute the fact that nobody that was able to submit you? First, you come from training. I train a lot, bad position. My difference is good because I practice over and over again. As much as I practice, all my offensive position.

Starting point is 00:24:42 So you have to train both equally. equally, not just being a good position, you have to be in bed. So I think that's the very strong part of my game. To be a complete fighter, this is a complete martial artist, you have to be good in every single position, every single one, those that you're not, you have a weakness. So it's, you know, to be complete, you should have no weakness. So that's was always my, you know, I was always very particular on that,

Starting point is 00:25:14 like it's where my weakness, where I might, where I don't feel good at it. If you put me in a position, it was struggle, how do I escape? How do I get out? Everything. Any submission locked, penny position, you know, back mount, everything. It doesn't matter which position I have. I practice over and over again.

Starting point is 00:25:32 So when I, if I get there in a fighting situation, I would know how to get out. At least I will have a direction, you know, I would know this is my way out. Do you practice both escaping the bad position and the transition into the bad position avoiding it? Because that's how it happens, you know, Jiu-Jitsu, you start a neutral position. The transition then becomes that the fight itself. It's being there is the most important. It's when you're there, then you have to know how to get out. That's your weakness, how stopping the person getting

Starting point is 00:26:12 that is something different. That's two different things. Either you practice one or the other. So both are important, I guess. But the stopping the person is easier to practice because that comes naturally in training. What was the actual process? What was your biggest weakness throughout your... Just remembering what was annoying to you to figure out? I mean, now psychontrol is always a bottom of psychonge bottom. It's regardless how much you practice, it's not that easy.

Starting point is 00:26:42 You'll never be easy. But it's so annoying. It makes no sense. Someone pins you down. Someone to move much is a big and strong guy. Regardless of who is not going to be easy to escape. So some situations are just hard. That must be the sorry to interrupt. I'm interrupting Hajj, you're just making me realize, But you just made me realize if you're really good, if you're going against the perfect jujitsu competitor, probably psych control might be one of the hardest positions. Is that the hardest position to escape? It's one of them.

Starting point is 00:27:16 If the person doesn't want to progress, it's going to sound about the whole thing. Like the best pinners in the world. I mean, partially because I've just seen judo people that know how to pin. Yeah, they scripted a second choice of nightmare. He's a nightmare. Doesn't matter how much you practice. Yeah, it's a nightmare. And it's also just frustrating. Yeah, I think it I guess it is also frustrating because a lot of people in the position will be about maintaining control, not progressing. Yeah. because a lot of people in that position will be about maintaining control, not progressing. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:27:45 And usually people when they're in a mount and in a back control are usually trying to progress towards a submission, which opens up opportunities for escape. Yeah. So what's the actual process of just timing, timing, again, putting yourself in psych and bottom of psych control? Yeah. Over and over again, starting there, escape,, go back, scape, go back. If you mount you, go back.

Starting point is 00:28:09 Any situation outside that stops, start again, stop, start again. And it has to be, I'll say, five minutes, because it's the repetition that will teach you. You know, if you train like three minutes on top, you have time to, you know, one thing, and then time out. It's the repetition that over and over again, you know, when you try to say, move over and over again, then you see, what can go wrong. And is it understanding the details of the movement or actually doing the movement and

Starting point is 00:28:36 feeling it? It's both. First, you have to understand the movement and then practice. But most important thing is defense. Escape coming second. Because he's attacking you. The one thing is if he's not trying to submit you, but the other one, if it is, let's say if the person is very good, has a very good attack. The first thing is defense. Not just escape, and expose yourself to a even worse position. Because that is very risky.

Starting point is 00:29:09 When you're trying to escape, you'll always expose yourself to a worse position. So avoiding that, it's first is defense, not getting caught. And then when you're escaping, don't be in a worse position. So defense in digits, when you're wearing a ghee, what is defense in tail? Is it mostly grips?

Starting point is 00:29:27 Is it mostly the positioning of your hips and legs? It's everything together because it's a whole body movement. It's constantly moving your arms, legs, body. It's it, they have to, everything works together. Going back to the mind of that guy, so confident, no fear at this point. Is there a bit of ego in there too? Yes, like I said, I'm not going to say I'm fearless. Of course, this concerns that fight, I would have to say, was probably the fight that I was nervous the most walking in because I knew what that meant that fight. They mean everything for me, all my legacy

Starting point is 00:30:15 was on the line because you've had a lost that fight. I'll forever be number two. forever, but for ever. And I mean, Boucheshe is a great, great guy, great competitor. He's very good, but I'm better than him. I knew that. But he's competing on stuff at that point. He's a great competitor, you know, taking nothing out of him. He's super tough, very, very tough, very good. It's probably the best competitor introducing who won 13 times the World Championship, I won 10. So as a competitor, you know, he has more titles than I do. So, but in terms of, you know, analyzing the game, I consider technically better than him. So knowing all that, everything that I build, all my legacy, it's if I was riding

Starting point is 00:31:09 on this match, if I lose this fight, I'm forever number two. I wonder that is going to remind that I know I knew, I mean, it's not at that moment that I already knew that I remember just before, and I'm the curtunes open, I'm standing in, before they call my name. And I mean, my legs were like, I feel the adrenaline kicking on my legs, and I'm like, you know, I'm hitting the legs, I'm like, wake up, you know, get off, get the adrenaline off me, you know.

Starting point is 00:31:41 So it's, it was intense, it was intense. And this was in real. That was in Rio. So my hometown. So this is, and you know, Rio is not exactly known for its calmness in its fans. So this is like, wherever they hosted the Olympics, the year before. So this is like, I mean, this like the whole basically martial arts community is watching this. I mean, is there some was hands of their? Yeah. So people are just, I mean, there's attention. It's also, I mean, I don't know if you felt that in part, but you're also fighting for the greasy name.

Starting point is 00:32:27 Yeah. In the, in our hometown, the greatest, where the grace he really, the greatest competitor of all time, arguably in the hometown. Yeah, I mean, okay. All my family, my best friends, my friends, everybody watching everybody there. There was a lot of pressure, a lot. And then were you thinking that you would be able to submit him? No, at that point, like I don't predict how the fight will go. That I never did because it's unpredictable. I never tried to set any strategy for any fight.

Starting point is 00:33:04 I think, oh, okay, that I did but That was the only time that I set any strategy into a fight. There was a 15-minute fight them and For I said first five minutes, I'm gonna play defense. He's bigger stronger younger I don't want to play his game and I know he comes in very fast. Every single fight he had, you know, he comes very aggressive. So my strategy working to the fight to say five minutes, I'm going to play defense. I'm not going to try to attack, I'm not going to try to match his pace. I already expected, you know, maybe I'm going to start losing the fight because, you know,

Starting point is 00:33:41 if he comes in, there's a risk of me maybe getting take down, you know, or something happened. because if it comes in, there's a risk of me maybe getting taken down or something happened. I'm like, I'm gonna stick to the game plan. Five minutes, I'm gonna start picking up the pace, because then it's 10 minutes to go, which 10 minutes a long fight. So I don't need to start fast, but I'm gonna start being more aggressive and then try to take him down or pull guard. By then, I'm like, that's as far as strategy goes. to take him down or put guard, you know, by then I'm like, that's as far as strategy goes. The no specific stay in the feet. Were you comfortable being both bottom and top and this strategic one? Yeah, I was comfortable being bottom top. I prefer to be on top because being in the bottom, the person on top dictates the pace of the fight because he's on top

Starting point is 00:34:22 over you. So I always prefer to be on top because I can dictate the pace. I can implement my own pace and being the bottom they can slow me down. So it's harder. So if I can choose or lose beyond top, but I think by then I was like, it's you know five minutes here that I'm like, he's pretty big and strong. I'm gonna spend a lot of energy taking him down I forgot How did it how did it feel? So here you're stepping in by the way Puzzle Maths. This is old school as old school as it gets So calm and relaxed here for people just listening. We're watching the early minutes of the match

Starting point is 00:35:02 Yeah, so just feeling it out. He seems pretty calm too. He must be nervous too. I wonder how you ever talked to him? You guys are friends. Yeah, yeah. How are we friends? Did he ever say how nervous he was? No, we never spoke about that fight. No, no. He probably lays a late at night thinking about it. Maybe. I don't know. That SOB. uh, late at night thinking about it. Maybe. I don't know. That's so big. Yeah. I mean, so you see the first five minutes, no, he kept. I knew what he was going to do in my study his game. His stand up is most basic, is basic in take downs,

Starting point is 00:35:38 leg attacks, double legs. So he goes single double, and he charges in. That is pretty much his stand-up game. So you try, you get a grip. Yeah, we got penalized. So do you like to use the, do you like to post your left? You have a right foot forward. Usually you're righty, right? I'm righty. But I know he wants my leg. So I'm playing my stance just because of this game Oh, you know all my grips at that the first five minutes was to kind of try to neutralize his attacks So he wants to get your left leg. Yeah Yeah, right there. Yeah, so how hard is that to stop that? I mean he felt pretty strong

Starting point is 00:36:24 Some you know pushing the head down, trying to play with his balance. Yeah. Wow. If you, if you see it, there was a pause. Go back there. He charged in. There's a pause, me standing in front of him. Yeah. I did that on purpose. What do you mean? Just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just down. So now, and this is just psychological battles. And you see me walking straight into the middle of the mat, and he's circling out. Yeah. See, I'm going very slow recovering. And he's computing like shit. Yeah. Okay. Because he just made a, you know, effort trying to take me down. He needs to recover. And I mean, you need to recover. The other guys they're waiting for you. Yeah. And do for you. Do I go for another take down?

Starting point is 00:37:27 Because this one failed. Don't you to recalculate the strategy. And he kept trying over and over again and keep failing. I think that frustrates him a lot on that fight. I fell. I fell him kind of slowing down suddenly because he was getting away. So we're five minutes in. Yeah, he keeps seeing. So he never got that takedown in the early, no.

Starting point is 00:37:59 Let's see. So at this point, do you pull a guard? Yeah, okay. So that's when I fell like he's He mentally he's he's not he's worried now. Did you try to pull close guard here? No, I knew he's gonna bring Danny in Okay, cuz that's the defense against pulling close guard. Yeah, but I like that What do I like people bringing the knee between my legs because you have going to close my guard even with his leg. Okay, he's he's he's stopping the well this is awkward but I guess I was holding his arm. That's why he felt he had no hand to post. Got it. But still it puts a leg in but you're able to close your guard around.

Starting point is 00:38:46 You're okay with that. I do that really well. I sweep people from that position a lot. What's the sweep? I just pushed. Okay. It's just like to your left side. Yeah. Okay. Because he has no, oh, it's almost like a, you mean, you're basically around his back a little bit like in drag seat. He knew that like I swap a lot of people with that sweep so you see he kept leaning to his left to my right yeah so I want to push them to my left so you see him leaning over to my right a lot what's the right answer for him to like roll or something no I mean he stuck he does not really he's stuck there but the one thing he did, he kept off me completely. See that he's leaning to like he's too afraid of my attack now.

Starting point is 00:39:29 Because he, you know, he should lean on me. You know, you should bring the fight to me. So when I fell him, you know, I knew he was like, he's too worried about my attacks now. Oh yeah, that's right. So he can't. Yeah, like he's back to the center. So he's my attacks now. Oh yeah, that's right. So he can't... Yeah, like he goes back to the center, he's no... So he's not engaging now, at that time he's 100% just defending. So I failed that. I'm like, he doesn't want to engage.

Starting point is 00:39:55 And he's looking, I knew at that point he wants my foot because our first fight, I had the exact same position. I wasn't holding his arm and he went to attack my foot, which you did, you know, he got into a hole that I want. Okay. Yeah. So I knew he's looking at my foot, which foot. Sorry. The right. I'm right. I have my right foot. Okay. And so I'm holding his arm and now you're going to the back as an arm drag type of thing. So the moment that I came off, now I'm holding his arm so he cannot come up. So you know, I'm holding his left arm so he cannot post a hand on the floor and come up. And he's holding you right to try to get you, yeah, basically to prevent you from attacking. Yeah. That's interesting. And he rolls. Yeah, he tried to get me off balance.

Starting point is 00:40:46 So see, now I'm switching, I switched the grip on his arm, so I can free my left arm. Yeah, ask you a question. Like, was there a chance he sweeps you here? I mean, there's always a chance, but there's that. Yeah, but see, my left arm is free. I'll see you can post. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:41:04 Why was your left arm free? Oh, because you're using it. You got it. Okay. So now I tried the hook. Now you will see. He still got your own. When, yeah, but when I knew his, his panicking because he did a move that he completely

Starting point is 00:41:23 opened himself up, like I'm holding his left arm. So by holding the arm, he's that prevents him from defending the hook on that side because his arm is being held across. So the arm cannot block the hook. And I mean, the hook with your left leg. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:41:41 So you see when he come up, but I would say, I mean, that's my guess but Bushes is he's a big guy you know he's like 110 kilos 112 something like that which is 245 yeah right yeah so what were you at the time less 220 yeah 220 I like to live 100 kilos. So, in his defense are not amazing, he's good, but he's not known to have amazing defense. So by being the big guy in the room when you train, you used to get out of situation because of your size. You shake people off. Because of your size, you shake them off, you get off some bad positions.

Starting point is 00:42:27 I mean, I could feel on the first fight, I'm side control, you know, so he explodes out. So, you know, I've seen him doing that a few of his fights. No. You know, in the most technical way, just I'm getting out. And he did it because of his size. So, and he did the same thing, like he tried to stood up when I'm on his back. He completely opened up the hooks. He will see the next move. His head gonna come up and he gonna try to get off the floor. So basically come up, shake you off, come in and energy.

Starting point is 00:42:58 That was no difference for the hooks. I put both hooks in straight away. Oh, his arm is. Yeah, I'm off balance. Yeah, see, I didn't bring him up. He came up. Yeah. And now I'm attacking his neck and he's worried about the hooks.

Starting point is 00:43:16 That's fatal mistake. That's like defense always come first. I mean, what I just said now, defense first, capes second. So he's not worried more about the points than his neck. So he was like a progression of mistakes. That's what I think. He got frustrated when he couldn't take me down. And then when I pulled God, he was frustrated that the fight wasn't

Starting point is 00:43:41 going his way. You know, he's very good about taking down. He try over and over again for five minutes. And here he was frustrated about the hooks. So he's like, it's almost like the frustration, things like, no, these hooks shouldn't be here. Like I pull God on the grips that I want. He's not comfortable inside my God. He's not in a position that he wants to be.

Starting point is 00:43:58 He's over leaning to his left. You know, to know, he's not engaged, you know, trying to pass. He's trying to get the foot, but his arm is trapped, he's going to get nowhere. And then when I swept him, sounded his world sacro-lapsing, you know, he couldn't take me down, I pulled out, I'm swept in, he tried to roll me over. No, he didn't get me anywhere. The first movement that he tried to escape, I'm on his back. I mean, now he's lost. Yeah. That if you just go back to him standing up, the boat hook goes in no defense. Like there was nothing on the way of those hooks. Because he tried to come off. Coming up, you're you're high enough on him to where the weight was just probably immense.

Starting point is 00:44:48 It just felt too heavy. I mean, you're already going for the choke, of course. There's no time to lose. Look at that. So you're not worried, I'm gonna get shaken off. You're going for the choke. Okay, you got your right hand on your back now. But you're shaking me off, I'm on your back now. We're not like worried. I'm gonna get shaken off you're going for the chip not you got your right hand Oh shaking me off. I'm on your back now

Starting point is 00:45:07 We're in this together And you're your right hand is opening up the lapel my right hand is holding his arm I still holding his sleeve. Sorry. Yeah, I like you're holding the sleeve But holding this sleeve and I'm already going for the neck Because it's timing at which point do you let go of the sleeve and open up Huppertoppa? Or you do not need it? No, I did that. But first I want to try to make a grip. Like then I need to establish control before I let go of his arm. Got it. So I kept holding that a bit longer. And then when I fell, okay, I have a good control over

Starting point is 00:45:42 the back, then I let go. Do you? okay, so you have like a light grip on his lapel, but you're thinking, you need that. No, I need to adjust that. You need to adjust that. You're like holding it there and you're thinking, okay, at some point I need to adjust. All I need, all I want is to get under his chin. Then I know it's, I mean, it's, now I can go for it. Because if it's over, there's no chalk, right?

Starting point is 00:46:04 I need, the wrist needs to be under. Can you, I joke, but I show, it's, now I can go for it. Because if it's over, there's no chalk, right? I need, there is no chalk. Can you add chalk, butchershout? No, over the, no, I can't. That's just not right. Okay. Is that right or it doesn't work? It's not right and it doesn't work. I mean, would you tap the chalk on your chin?

Starting point is 00:46:18 No, just pressure. Have you heard, but it's not gonna chalk you out. I don't know. I don't know. Let me argue, this, I love this. Arguing with the hot, you're greasing but it's not gonna choke you out. I don't know. I don't know. Let me argue this. I love this. Arguing with the larger grazing of our jokes. This is great.

Starting point is 00:46:28 Okay. Like clock choke. It was always interesting to me, because in Judo, it's illegal to have the gear on the face. And so it was kind of liberating for me to be allowed to have a gear on the face. No, it's just liberating. No, you don't have to worry about it. Of course, it's more effective to go under the chin,

Starting point is 00:46:48 but I'm surprised just because the amount of pressure, like, is all about how much you can take it. You can take a lot. It feels like... No, it doesn't feel comfortable. I mean, sometimes on your mouth, it cuts your mouth, now you bleed it, it feels horrible. No, but it feels... That's not the feeling.

Starting point is 00:47:02 It might not be a joke, but the feeling like it's a pressure that everything's just closing in. Wait, wait, it doesn't take you anywhere. Like you're not going to go to sleep. You might not go to sleep. So it's just pressure. Yes. So pressure, it hurts, it's uncomfortable, but it is not going to break your face, and it's not going to put you to sleep.

Starting point is 00:47:21 So if I don't get the neck, I don't go for the kill. I'm like, I'm holding the his collar. You know, my wrist is almost under. It's, you know, I'm trying to kind of dig in. If I can't dig in, then I would just call it, but first I need to dig in. A dig in first and adjust. Can you do all that with one hand or no? I did. dig in. A dig in first and adjust. But can you do all that with one hand or no? I did. So you can tighten the choke with just one hand. No, I need the second one to open the lock. Open the bell. But you're like digging in with one hand. I'm digging it on the ditch. And there is no, now I need to go deeper. But that the going deeper requires the second hand. You do. Okay. You do. And but that requires you letting go of the other hand.

Starting point is 00:48:05 Yeah, I have to let go eventually. Yeah, I see. All right. Yeah. Well, that's over. Yeah. Because I'm already under his, like the first hand got under the ditching. Do you need the hand and the second lapel?

Starting point is 00:48:19 Of course. So, why is he turns? And he's out. That's the control of the churning versus the tightening of the choke. Yeah. It does both. It helps tie the night the collar and stop the person rolling out. Were you feeling pretty good about this position? Yes. I just felt it was getting tighter, tighter, tighter, because it wasn't super tight from the beginning. It wasn't like the perfect choke. So it was still, I mean, I knew it was like it's very close to the end, but you know,

Starting point is 00:48:56 I still need to adjust. There was still the risk of maybe he's escaping. Is it possible for us to have to slip out? It is possible, yes. But I'm closing that gap. Right here. What do that feel like? Relief? Relief?

Starting point is 00:49:14 Like, awesome. That's amazing. Ha ha ha. Somebody on Reddit asked him about the cross grip. He used the sweep followed with the genius grips, which when Bruchesha was inverted, did you use a cross grip when you sweep? I guess the cross grip in the arm, that must be it. Oh, that's the cross grip.

Starting point is 00:49:34 Okay. What's the genius behind that? Or was that just the, do you like that kind of, that kind of grip? Yeah, because I always like close guard. And no one wants to be anyone's close guard, right? It's open guard is step to pass. So everybody when you try to close the guard, they bring them in in the middle. Like if you if you're not standing, if you're lower on the ground, and they open guard, if you close to me, you need that knee between. So it's a must. That's when I start developing the attack.

Starting point is 00:50:07 You know, I mentioned to have long legs to close, my legs around people even with that. And then I just develop that sweep. When did you start developing that? Like, I don't remember when, but I would say before Black Belt. Okay, so your answer to that is not to figure out how to prevent them from putting the knee in. Is there an answer to that is not to figure out how to prevent them from putting the knee in

Starting point is 00:50:26 Is there an answer to that? No But good guys will always no you can't get the knee removed their leg out of the way. There's no possible Well, maybe off balance them enough to move this no, okay, I mean it you can tribal like it's hard if you kind of honestly you'll sweet them Right so that needs gonna, you have to stop that. That's a full sweep, yeah. Because that is extremely common to have that. I mean, if I'm on your guard, open guard, you know, if you have your legs,

Starting point is 00:50:56 if I'm from between both of your legs in the open guard, my knee will be between your legs. Because it's a must. My knee cannot be on the floor. Since when's I was there? what did he tell you before? I think just motivate you. I think that's Hanzo always did that fantastically well to motivate me, like before in Fight a Match.

Starting point is 00:51:17 I think that, you know, the confidence, you know, his energy being around you. I think that's the great thing to have Hanzo on your corner. He's the motivation that he gives you What did you learn about Jiu-Jitsu in life from hands of Gracie? We got to hang out with him in Vegas a little bit. He's a character. Yeah, he's one of the Historic coaches and Jiu-Jitsu competitors, but also personalities in the martial arts world in the world in general There's very few you like them. Hands is a fantastic person.

Starting point is 00:51:48 It's, you know, what I've learned most from him is like, you know, you can't take any challenge. It doesn't matter where and where, you know, who it's, you know, you have to be ready. And, you know, with that warrior spirit that he has, he, you know, you have to be ready. And, you know, with that war spirit that he has, he, you know, he always took any challenge. Ready or not ready? Was it you that said it or he said it where, not until you go in, you know, to do something difficult, do you discover the strength that you have? So like, if you really think about it, you might think that you're not good enough, you don't have the strength to take on something difficult.

Starting point is 00:52:34 I fully agree. I think we are measure not when we're on the strongest, but when we are on the weakest. That's when we truly measure ourselves or character who we are, not when a position of power, or when a position of weakness. Have you surprised yourself, like, how damn good you are? Like, is this really how good I am in this situation, where in retrospect you might think how the hell was able to accomplish this? Not how good I am because otherwise I wouldn't be there.

Starting point is 00:53:06 So being there in the first place, it's already not a great thing. But I say, every single time I found myself there, I was super proud that I've never cracked. Like I've never gave up ever, any second, any fight, never. Never been broken in competition, never. Even it's not about winning or losing, it's about you giving up. I've never doubted myself. I always fought to the very end, always dead, I'm most proud of. Because there was moments, you know, it's in a terrible position,

Starting point is 00:53:44 you know, mainly like there was moments, you know, it's in a terrible position, you know, mainly like there was moments that were super tired, but like exhaustive tired. When it was easy to give up, like I had nothing more to give, but I pushed, I took energy out of my soul. I'll have to say, because when my body hadn't zero, my spirit, my soul, pull it out. Is that in part just not allowing yourself to have to ever, ever quit? Yeah. I have one other thing I regret. I remember like a blue belt match. I remember I'm not gonna say who it was against, but I remember it was just being extremely exhausted and

Starting point is 00:54:32 just constantly fighting a guy with a really good mount, really good guard passing and I just remember him passing my guard eventually it was just like a finals of one of the IBGF tournaments. And then right away going to mount and just, I don't know, the level of frustration, I mean, I quit at that point. I remember that still. Like, it's not about losing, winning or losing, but I just remember I was like, I was like, tearyary-eyed frustrated and then I knew there's a lot of fights still left Even in there somewhere and I I quit and I regret that to this day Is I think the reason I regret that is because it gave me an option

Starting point is 00:55:16 To not quit in every other aspect of life like that. This is an option. Yeah, it is It sucks. Yeah, it teaches you, you know? It makes us stronger. I think it made you stronger. Yeah, it makes you stronger that you did that to learn that, don't do that again. But still, like you said, just going to sleep and training. I do think it made me weaker.

Starting point is 00:55:44 It did make me weaker in the rest of my life, too. Those, you know, I've quit a few times in my life on small things. And you realize, okay, it's not that big of a deal. It's fine. Like who cares? But that what you learn over time is that voice always comes there. Like, obviously, maybe it does for you, too, even at the highest level. I'm like, it's not that big of a deal. It's okay to quit here. It makes sense. Everybody would understand.

Starting point is 00:56:13 In some sense, many people would say you passed your prime in this match with the prochetscher. In any sense, you've been focusing on MMA, make sense. Make sense to lose. Yeah, I don't know that that's a weird voice. And in some sense, it's that voice and a voice that says like, why are you doing this? Like this is silly.

Starting point is 00:56:36 Does making sense is just stop. Just stop. Just stop. And shutting that voice down and never allowing yourself to quit. That's a really powerful thing. Like everybody I've met, everybody that's successful. Yeah, down to the, even engineers, CEOs, Elon Musk, just never quitting. Like when everybody around you is this quit, never quitting.

Starting point is 00:57:02 It's weird. I don't know what that is. It might be genetic. It might be like using the stubbornness to just never allow yourself to develop that, it's basically developing a callus to that voice that tries to tell you to quit. You never quit, huh?

Starting point is 00:57:20 What would your trip be that to? It's like how much you want to get to the destination you chose like you know, it's How badly when I get there It's if you quit you're never gonna get there and you always wanted I always wanted Is there some thing you remember from that match some things that happened before and after they stand out to you? Just it's unreal. Yeah, there was an interview, you know, like prior to the fight, you know, there was a big fight. We don't like media every day before we met, you know, me and him. We're many for media.

Starting point is 00:57:56 And like five days before, you know, five, six days before, I'm quite chery. It's, you know, the closer we get to the fight, the more focus I get, the less I talk, I stop joke around playing, you know, with people. But I remember, I think it was maybe three or four days before we were doing interviews together. I think my cousin Kira was there. I was doing one of the interviews with us. And I don't remember exactly what we were talking about, but I just remember we were talking about the fight of course and then it was just, you know, we were standing beside each other and I'm like, and then I, you know, suddenly I chop in a grabbing by the neck, I see, I'm going to tap you by the neck and then he's like, you know, very shy.

Starting point is 00:58:41 And then I like, go see, you know, I'm gonna grab tap your body arm and I could feel he was like, he wasn't comfortable, you know, with being the aides. You know, me saying that I'm gonna tap him out, there was like, I was so relaxed joking about it, but I'm joking that I'm gonna tap him out, you know, fight that we're gonna have him for this time. And yeah, I felt he was like, not comfortable at all. Do you think you got in this head a little bit? I did. And yeah, I felt he was like, not cold to blow at all.

Starting point is 00:59:05 Do you think you got in his head a little bit to give you a little bit of confidence? Yeah. You've said that, digits are reflection of your personality. So both your digits and your personality, there's a calmness. What is that?

Starting point is 00:59:16 Why are you so calm? Is there an ocean underneath that's boiling? Is this developed or is this your personality? Are you basically leveraging who you are already? The developer game around the Jets are the Jets and make you calm. I Think both I was always very calm since I was a kid. No since very young I was never very you know fiery person. So that is a reflection You know you reflected on my juice of my life on my thighs to verify it So is that direct, of my life, on my fights, where I fight. So it's a direct influence of my personality.

Starting point is 00:59:48 And I think it's also in the day you develop the more you practice, the more you fight, it's like you don't want to get nervous, you don't want that adrenaline in, so you just learn how to shut that off from your mind. So the last I thought about it, you know, it's like how many times I thought, you know, let's say the week before the fight, that's when you start more, when you constantly most, because now it's getting very close, before it's just far away, you know, it's normal to think of the tournament, you get a bit nervous, but it goes away quick, but the fight, you know, the week before, now you constantly thinking of that day.

Starting point is 01:00:27 And every time you think, adrenaline pumps in, your heart accelerates. You know, it doesn't, you know, it makes it, it's like, why am I feeling this? What different will it make? So you kind of, you're sharing that thought out of your mind, because you don't want to feel that adrenaline, your heart accelerating.

Starting point is 01:00:43 It's not gonna add you anything. So it's the practice also that I think it helped me to shut that off my mind. Is that helped your regular life? Yeah, of course. It's, you know, it's suddenly when you go into any situation that might be stressful, you know, like an important meeting, no super, whatever it is,

Starting point is 01:01:04 it's like how much would you worry about that before? Worried is not going to help you anywhere. It's the opposite. Just going to make your mouth nervous, your heart recelerate, your ability to think clearly is going to be damaged by that. So it's like they're more calm, they're more relaxed. You are the better you can think of. Do you ever get angry?

Starting point is 01:01:25 Yeah. Like in traffic. Do you ever get like not calm just like you're screaming? No, not in a screaming. No. But you're just angry. Yeah. What does angry look like?

Starting point is 01:01:37 Is it still calm? Yeah, like you don't have a few seconds off complaining, but then it goes away. Have you ever like thrown a cellphone at a wall or something? Not a thing. Just that. No, I never get that. Could just just say it's like it's it's it's if I would have done that I would not be able to control my emotions prior to fight.

Starting point is 01:01:58 Yeah, so that reflection letting yourself lose yeah losing control that will reflect other times Do you think it has Make in part made you more emotionally closed off from the world like you're your it's harder for you to be vulnerable to others probably Yeah, but I heard that a few times Yeah, but I heard that a few times. That I'm emotionally close. Yeah, maybe. I think that influences.

Starting point is 01:02:28 Yeah. Have you ever cried in the movie? Yeah. For not for many years before I think maybe I'm getting older. You remember the movie? Something that's basically movie. I mean, it's not the notebook. I mean, I would say the last few years, I've been crime-ordering before for some reason.

Starting point is 01:02:47 I don't know why. Like, silly movies, like, nothing suddenly brings tears to my eyes. Yeah. Well, I've already just having met you and interacted with you. I can see that you're kind of opening your heart of mine to the world. You could see like, here's this historically great athlete. Now like the wars have been fought and you're now like waking up to the world. It's cool to see. Probably I'm bringing my guard down now. I don't have to get it up on the time. You can

Starting point is 01:03:19 even do some podcasts. You said you watched like movies before hands, sometimes mention brave heart. What were you doing? Did you watch something before hand like the day before? Yeah, there was like a thing, brave heart and gladiator. I mean, there's a few others that I've always watched the day before because the day before is to do nothing. I just want to be a home in bed, watching TV, like stretching by myself so it's like it's just want to save energy. I don't know if it's my energy going out going around. So you know, those are the movies that I always like to watch kind of trying to bring someone you know hyper excitement is like you know I'm getting ready to watch tomorrow so I'm like let me watch some movies that like brought there, you know,

Starting point is 01:04:07 some that worries period into me. Yeah, what is that about, you man? It's very hard. I love even more. Should you put your life on the line for a thing that matters or run away just so you can live? It's like running, you may live, but like years from now when you look back at this moment Would you trade all the days?

Starting point is 01:04:30 Just to come back to this moment and tell dangly You could take our lives, but you can't take our freedom. I mean Man, what is that about human nature? Oh, man, what is that about human nature? Is there some aspect of the glory you were able to achieve being more important than anything else? There's some aspect of that. That's greatness. You know, I never pursue glory. So it just came, you know, it came with it, but that was never my goal.

Starting point is 01:05:05 I never care for glory. Were you able to experience like, like, I'm at the height of this thing. Whatever humanity is able to achieve in various things, holy shit. I'm flying. I fell like, no one can touch me. I can destroy people. Yeah. For long periods of time or just momentarily. I always knew from before I got to Blackbeard, like I came to be great because I used to train with the best in the world.

Starting point is 01:05:43 I used to see my progression in years, and everybody else. I knew I was getting somewhere. I knew I could be the best. That was all my growth since very, very young. I always believed that I could be. Over the years, that kept telling me over and over again, because I'm getting better and better,

Starting point is 01:06:09 faster than everybody else. So I just need to carry on with what I'm doing. But I think you've said that you wanted to, and maybe you thought you could be the greatest of all time, like at the very beginning, like when you sucked. Yeah. Yeah. Not, not the greatest of all time because I never really thought about that, but I thought I'm going to be the best in the world when I suck, when I suck. So, okay. So what is that? What is that? Like that self belief? Is there a component to that self-belief being a prerequisite?

Starting point is 01:06:46 It's difficult to say because that was a decision, I think. Like, why did I believe that could be? I can't tell of that because I don't know. But you think you decided to be? I decided to be, I decided to be and I believe that could. I think there's like a day somewhere when you were young, when you're like, huh, you're sitting at a couch eating Cheetos. I don't think it was a day like a moment,

Starting point is 01:07:12 because for many years, I wasn't really training much as a child. I've done a bit of, I used to train and then stop, done a bit of judo, never stay away from it much, but until you know it, from 10 to 14, I barely trained judo too much. I used to, there was no gracey school near where I used to live. And I was doing, there was a judo school, I used to go twice a week. I went to a judo school,. I lost in five seconds left crying.

Starting point is 01:07:46 The guy pulled me in five seconds anyway. So when I was 14, I went to the South of Brazil to see my uncle Helium to spend some holidays. I was there for like four weeks I think. And when I got there, my cousin Hollis were living with him. Hollis like bigger than me. It was think, four years, four years older. So I was 14, it was already 18, 17, 18, purple belt, competitor.

Starting point is 01:08:14 And I think there was the first time in my life that I felt what it meant, what it meant to be a Gracie in terms of having a school, teaching, training, living that Gigi's lifestyle, what a Gracie meant to be. And I've just, I've loved that. Those are the shape. My uncle was incentivizing me to lose weight, to train, but you're not training why. You know, it's like, you've got a shape, you need to diet. So I used to run every day, I was eating super well,

Starting point is 01:08:46 I started that when I started changing. So when I go back to Rio, I was super motivated to follow up, carry on. And he invited me to go back there to live with him. But I couldn't, it was too soon to change schools and everything. My mom said, no, but maybe next year if you want to go, you can. So I kept that in my mind.

Starting point is 01:09:08 Next year, I moved to the south to live with him. I was 15. And it was him, my uncle, Hylon, and my uncle, Crawling. The boat used to live very closely. They used to have their own schools close to each other. So I was with both. And I stayed there for almost a year. I was the youngest in the academy.

Starting point is 01:09:27 There was some blue purple bells, normal guy, but they were already competing, training ahead of me. And I just joined the group of training. I didn't compete while I was there, because there was no competition that then. And I wasn't really ready, but it's not about competing, it's not about the training. And I start training every day, start improving. And year after that, when I came back to real, I was

Starting point is 01:09:50 already on a mission. I was like, I love this. I'm just carry on training every day with my uncle Carlos, Carlos Gracie Jr. Gracie Barra. And the one I got there, I was training a little bit that before, but I just 14, 15. But when I got there, I was training a little bit that before, but I just 14, 15. But when I got there, there was one of that was one of the most comparator, one of the biggest teachers of school at the time. There was so many high-level world-champers comparators in every single belt. I've kind of joined in with that. I've carried on, I don't remember when, but I remember, you know, looking and saying,

Starting point is 01:10:28 I'm gonna be the best in the world. But I used to be, I was at the bottom of the stairs, you know, no one really believed me. I didn't shout, you know, to disguise, but you know, I told a few people, I'm like, I'm gonna be the best. And that's, I think, I was just losing, but I've never, ever doubt I've never tivered from that mission, I would say. Did anyone believe you? When you

Starting point is 01:10:52 said you can be great? Nobody. It didn't matter. It didn't matter. I don't, okay, I don't need even people that I like love you. Everybody, my mom, my dad, let me know one thought. No one in my family thought I was going to be here today. Nobody. Because I just started late. I've never had any start that people, or that kid's going to be really good. No, almost a chubby kid that didn't barely train. I mean, people used to look at me, he just another grace, he does. You know, one more. He had just some other grace, he'd just, you know, well more. What do you learn from that? Do you think most people lose that self-belief?

Starting point is 01:11:30 They quit, whatever, and around them doesn't believe? Yeah. I think if those that need approval, yes. Right, so you shouldn't have approval. I never need approval from anyone. I don't care if you leave me or not, if you're not my problem. It's tough. It's tough. I don't need approval, but you're surrounded by people older, wiser, better than you. And they're kind of directly or indirectly

Starting point is 01:12:00 saying you stop being silly kid. No one never told me that because I know I is not that was not something that I used to say all the time. I've maybe said for very very few times. Oh, just well, you know, maybe that's the secret. Of course, I mean, if you start shouting, then you've just been silly, then it's not what would you really want. Then you say that for another reasons, if you say it over and over again, because you shouldn't. I mean, why? Well, to push back, one of the reasons you might want to say it is to find the right people that believe in you.

Starting point is 01:12:32 Yeah, but not if you say over and over again, then you're just bragging. Sure. Because one thing is to say it, but the other one is to do it. So you know, you say it once or very few times, but now you have to do it, but the other one is to do it. So you know, you say it once or very few times, but now you have to do it saying it's not helping you getting there. Was there sacrifices you had to make? Everything. Everything. That was my priority in life. Everything was second there. Like social life, career paths, everything. And as from 14, 15, 60, as you get better and better and better and better, it was just becoming sharper the focus on this thing. Yeah. It's just over and over

Starting point is 01:13:16 again, over and over again. It's, you know, it's just training, training, training. And I mean, how many times I lost, I have no clue. So on the mat, you were getting smashed by everybody. People my age, I was chubby, I was physically weak. I mean, I'm tall, but physically, I'm not physically strong. I'm normally strong for my size, but physically, if you want to measure strength, I'm weak, because we can measure strength living with, living with, I'm weak. I don't lift, I lift weight, same

Starting point is 01:13:53 as people much larger than me. Everybody, my weight, lives have, have your weight. And then people that train with you often talk about how, they start to question. Yeah. Because I generate a lot of strength. I can't create. I put myself in the right angles. So then I can be strong. I'm not strong. And the only person who I listen to saying

Starting point is 01:14:17 that is a computer, one guy that I thought, Hodrugumidirus, I thought him a few times. And he's the only one that I heard saying about me, this like, no, Roger's not strong. He's not, he's technical, he's haking creates strength by his not strong. He meant that as a compliment. Yeah, I think so.

Starting point is 01:14:37 No, I think he was honest because he, I think he's the only one who could see that. Yes. So I think that's a compliment. So he's technically really strong. So you had incredible matches with him. Yeah. Is there insight you have about how you went

Starting point is 01:14:55 from a person who was not very good, but had a dream, a confident dream, a vision to somebody that was actually good. Was there something to the practice sessions? Were you getting reps on a specific techniques? I'd never done anything special because I mean, I mean a gym training equally with everybody else. So I've never did anything on the side, different than anybody else. So I was in the school training, the exact the same way as everybody else. Well, in terms of schedule, yes.

Starting point is 01:15:30 But what was, can you reverse engineer what was going through your mind? Because there's so many different ways to actually mentally approach the same exact training session. I'm going to try to beat you. Okay. So in some part, it's competitive. Yeah. Like at the core of it, is I want to be better than these particular people? You're going to keep beating me. I'm going to keep coming back,

Starting point is 01:15:52 are you? And to do that, I have to solve problems. I have to figure out how to do stuff. Well, you catch me once. I'm going to keep on coming, trying to get, get, get, get going. That at which point did you develop a game that was basically the famous White Belt game of the very basics, the very fundamentals of Jiu-Jitsu, like saying, I'm going to beat you. There was never a conscious decision to try to have a basic Jiu-Jitsu. First, I think there's a big misconception that my jujitsu is not basic. It's not basic, it's not old school. I think people just don't see that.

Starting point is 01:16:36 It's extremely complex. In a way that people cannot copy. I teach people, I can teach you the cross-collar choke. But the one thing that people they don't realize is not the move, you need to practice the move until you learn, is the practice over and over again. Like it took me years. When I say years, like years after I was a black belt, I was able to choke people

Starting point is 01:17:07 out with a cross collar choking them out effectively, ears after I got my black belt. So that's something that you learned first day, first week. So I can teach you, it makes no difference. You know the theory, but until you apply it in them you help you. Of course, the more details you learn, the more tools you have to practice, but it's still very complex because it's not about the move itself, it's about how can you control the movement of the other person. He's resisting, you're blocking, you cannot predict what you're doing and he's doing a whole bunch of moves to block you. Every single move you do a step of the way because it's a progression of move from beginning to end till I apply the choke. It's a progression

Starting point is 01:17:53 of move and there's not one way to get that there's many ways because how many ways can you block? You can put your arm in every single angle, we have both arms, you can bridge. So it's dealing with all that. That's the complexity of that position. But that was for everything. Like every single move, my strong moves, I would say, it took me years developing them, years. So it's, and you're gonna tell me that's basic. So go try and do it. What do other

Starting point is 01:18:25 person is defending? That's the thing because most of the things that I do, I've been doing them for years. And I, they know that I'm going to do and I can still get it most of the time. That's the hardest. It's when they know what's coming in you can still do it. And you said that the way you're able to do that, you just have to do it right. Yeah. What do you learn by doing all the steps along the way and just for people who don't know cross-collar choke from the mount? So, you just start sitting in your true place, there's people on their feet, and then you either, then you get to the ground somehow, and then there's the person on top and on bottom, and

Starting point is 01:19:08 then there's a guard with the legs between the two people, and then you can get past the guard as you get past the guard, and you, uh, into side control, and so on, you get more and more and more dominant positions. So, mount is considered to be one of the most dominant positions. It's when your pastor legs sitting on top of their stomach, putting pressure on them, and cross collar choke is using their jacket to, how do you explain that? To choke with their choke. To have the callus, I put my both hands on your callus, and when I squeeze, it, it, it, it press your neck, it blocks the venue, you go to sleep.

Starting point is 01:19:46 So it's a... You choke people with your hands in the wrist, you put them, you know, grab the collar, you get the wrist around people's neck and you squeeze. Yeah, the discovery of that is fascinating. I mean, because it's interesting, it's like... You know, you can imagine there's all kinds of ways to choke a human being. You know, you can imagine there's all kinds of ways to choke a human being What animals do it with their like mouth? Right they put like their jaws around the And the fact that you can kind of discover this methodology of the right kind of positioning and then it becomes an art form like

Starting point is 01:20:24 Why this why not this right or why not this or something like to figure all that out. I think we practice that will come music. Over time you figure out what works for not new and then more further and further details and subtleties start to emerge. Anyway, on that process of beating, of being able to beat some of the best people in the world and the thing they know is coming, what's the difference here in the white belt doing that and how do you do that? The thing that's so hard to explain. What do you think you're picking up? Is it some tiny, tiny details and muscle movements?

Starting point is 01:20:54 It is. It's many tiny details because it's the whole movement itself. It's the perception from beginning to end. Like every step of their movement it's important and precise. So you miss one detail on the way, you collapse. So when you sit with a black belt, the black belt has no control over their whole movement. He's thinking beginning and then, so he goes straight to your neck regardless, he cannot

Starting point is 01:21:23 read the other person. If it's time to let go, if it's time to go for a neck, he should have been pushing here before I got my hand in. Is this the right time to go deep or should I deal with this first before the second hand? That's the beginning, it's the white belt at the very beginning of the journey. The white belt, did you think finish? Yeah. And then as you get progressed,

Starting point is 01:21:50 you see that there's like this giant tree of possibilities that you're almost feeling your way down. I mean, would you be able to teach? Do you even know what you're doing? By the details. Okay. But it's hard to convert into words, probably. Do you even know what you're doing? By the details. But it's hard to convert into words, probably. No.

Starting point is 01:22:09 That's possible. Then you don't know what you're doing. So what is the most important details that you could say, maybe positioning of the hand or the gripping, is that the positioning of your body, the posture? Is there some interesting, like, inside? It's a combination, because first you have to put your body in a very strong position, that you don't require your hands to hold them out. So the choke is that that's first, because I can always my hands on the floor to stop you escaping.

Starting point is 01:22:43 So if my body has to handle that, the way I position myself, I have to do it in a way that don't require my hands for balance. Okay. Why is the balance such a dominant position? It doesn't make any sense, right? Like, you're just sitting on top of the stomach of a person. It makes all sense. If you think, forget fighting, forget your jutsu, like if you've never trained,

Starting point is 01:23:06 was the one position, the most dominant position, you can get over another human being. One, the most for you, which one it is. Like the most dominant position that you can get over another human being. position that you can get over not the human being. So if we were just, because the way I think about it is putting myself in like a six, seven, eight year old self without knowing any martial arts and adding all the brother would be the shit out of me. Yeah, it probably was mount. What? But, well, yes, okay.

Starting point is 01:23:43 So we both didn't know. But if you knew something, you'd probably be back control. If in the back control you're under the other person, the thing being under is the most dominant position that can be over another person. You mean like a back control? If I'm on your back. Oh, like that.

Starting point is 01:23:58 You can move. You can roll. I cannot stop you rolling. Yeah. Maybe you can even stand up. How dominant is that? Yeah, but if we're at the same size, both untrained, if it doesn't matter.

Starting point is 01:24:09 Yeah, you see kids, they do that. Okay. Mount looks and feels like dominance when you're two eight year olds fighting. Okay, I don't know. I don't know why it feels that way. It could be some animalistic thing. Maybe it is actual dominance.

Starting point is 01:24:24 I don't know, but it feels like if you're untrained, you can just buck your way out of it. It feels unstable. It feels unstable to hold mouth, unless you know what you're doing, right? No. If you're multiple, both of your hands on the floor. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:24:37 Just your hands. Just think it's easy to take somebody off. Yeah, they're even not. But think it's easy to remove the hand and bring them out. The hands on the floor. I'm straight. I'm leaning in. Yeah, you're right. I mean, you don't need to know fighting to hold yourself there. Yeah. But you're right, when you take the arms off and balancing, that is just tricky. Because when you're trying to, I think what happens, I'm thinking back to eight year old,

Starting point is 01:25:05 because my brother's five years older than me, and he would do the usual, like, stop hitting yourself thing. And I think he would be in mount, like hitting me with my own hands, out of place of love, of course, I love him deeply, and it was very formative and positive experience for me. Okay, I think, yeah, the weakness is when he takes, when the person who has you

Starting point is 01:25:30 mal takes their arms off to do something. But even if you keep your hands up in there, when I'm falling, yeah, you can. When I'm falling. So, I'm speaking about untrained people. I feel like they get greedy. They try to do stuff. The other day I watched my nine-year-old daughter, when a friend's house, there's a whole bunch of kids there, they're playing. When I looked, she's mounting the boy her AIDS, her size, he can escape. Wow, she probably has seen. No, she's been training for, I'll say, you know, half. Okay, she's not much. I mean, she's a nine-year-old daughter, a girl, over a boy.

Starting point is 01:26:08 Has she seen footage of you? Maybe she picked up a guy. No, but she's been trained for a year and a half. So she has an idea of our mountains. But I mean, it turns out about skills. I don't ever taught her the mountains. If she has, you know, she has lessons at the academy, like any other kid. Did she make him cry or?

Starting point is 01:26:26 No, but he couldn't escape. Which other position would she be able to hold the boy in the back? He would roll it out. That's true. Like, he couldn't come out from underneath, like, he said, their kids, like, there is no other, most dominant position that you can pin the other person. Couldn't you argue from that perspective, side control? No.

Starting point is 01:26:49 No. Because side control, you have to hold the other person. And it's you're not free. You cannot release them. But in side control, your hips are not on top of theirs. So they can't buck you off, right? You're holding them a little bit and then you get him with one hand. But he's had his here. You're going to hurt him here. But the time you're doing that, but then he has his arms free. And if you turn towards

Starting point is 01:27:19 your legs, then he's away from your arms. You know, even has the perfect angle. I mean, it is a good position. You can hit, you can dominate, but it's not the best position to be over the other person. He can knee you in the head. At the same time, you punch him, then there's a knee coming to your head. I love playing devil's advocate. A hot your grace about two eight year olds fighting. And your head is closer to his hand. Yeah, maybe he can give you a punch. All right. So would you would you choose to be a psychoanxious over month? Get it in the head. Well, for a person who in competition prefers neon belly over a month, but that's my weakness. That's my failure as a human being.

Starting point is 01:28:03 Holding mouth is can be tricky. It's very hard. Of course, that's my failure as a human being. Holding mouth is can be tricky. It's very hard. Of course, it's hard. But what is easy? It's not controlling neon bell is easier, but just a bit. Neon bell is easy. Easier. I'm not saying black belt level. I'm saying, well, maybe even black belt love is a for what to hold somebody to make them squirm and hurt, to create openings. You have to go to there with a big guy. Yeah, you can't. You can't. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:28:32 He's going to push you back and come up in the mouth. He can't sit up, not when he mounted him. The thing is also about mount as people on the bottom of mount panic more. So they fight for their... First they panic. They expose. Yeah. bottom of mouth panic more. So they fight for their panic. The expose is the most exposure you have because the post arms are free. You cannot touch him. His head is too high. There's nothing he can do. His legs won't get you anywhere. My touch a lot back. It's like nothing.

Starting point is 01:29:01 You do you you most expose meaning the mouth. I read you hold me psychoncho a thousand times the amount of me having to look up for your face. Come down. Yeah, psychoncho. I hug you. You cannot hurt me. Okay. Hold me, but I'm hugging you.

Starting point is 01:29:20 If I hug you tight, what can you do against me? Hold it. It seems maybe it's just from, um, and again, I'm arguing just for the fun of it. But it seems like a more difficult skill to learn to apply a huge amount of pressure and weight from out. You don't have so slight pressure and weight from out, not apply pressure, but be heavy, right? You don't necessarily need to be heavy. You don't have so slight pressure and wait for them out or not apply pressure, but be heavy, right? You don't necessarily need to be heavy. You don't know. What, why do you, as people say, if you look extremely heavy?

Starting point is 01:29:54 If I'm putting, if I'm being heavy, I cannot attack. I have to choose. I can be heavy just to paint them, take the energy out to make them suffer, but the moment that I decide to attack, I can only be heavy if I'm sitting up straight. That's when my all my weight can drop down. If I'm high, then I'm sitting on your chest and on your own, your own, your solo plexus. That's the worst position to be seated at it on the person, because that's where he breathed. So you're in a high mount, sitting up straight,

Starting point is 01:30:29 that's when you can, I can be very heavy, I can make people, you know, feel my weight, you know, be very uncomfortable, but I'm not in a position to attack. The moment that I wanna attack, my body has to lean forward. I have to approach the, you know, the neck or the arms. The moment that I do that, my weight comes off, my hips, it goes to my knees, the way it is off you.

Starting point is 01:30:49 But at that point, if you have not my attacking, I'm no longer heavy on you. But you want to be at that point to removing the defenses they have or some of the defenses by getting their elbows on. Now, I'm like, either getting, trying to get your call or bringing your elbow across or talking to your unlock. So what is some interesting details along the way that are tough to get to figure out what were the big leaps for you from White Belt to the best in the world. It's you're trying to attack the neck and put in one hand in

Starting point is 01:31:18 the collar you're priving yourself that hand to pace it on the floor. So now you're vulnerable to get brished to get roll over because. Because if your hands are free, trying to roll you over, you start. The moment that you put your hand in the person's collar, now you have to be very careful with your body positioning, very careful. The distribution of the weight. Yeah. And how you know, how high you sit, you know, how tall your upper body goes. And then the biggest challenge comes as you're trying the second hand. That's the, you know, for the choke, that's the biggest challenge, the second hand.

Starting point is 01:31:51 Because you already have, you know, you already don't have one hand. Now you're trying the second hand. And if one of my hand is in, you as a defending yourself have two hands. One hand is already on one side. This side is getting attacked. You have two hands blocking that.

Starting point is 01:32:12 I have one hand. There's no help for that hand. I cannot remove anything. That's the biggest challenge. One hand getting past two and not getting roll over. But I also have two hands on bottom, I have two hands and I can also turn and do all kinds of stuff. And my whole mind and everything is focused on that second hand. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:32:36 He's a big challenge. He's hard. Very hard. Is there an art to getting the first hand into a place where you it's less an art because it's easier. I'll say most times I get my first hand in, is when you try and some move. You try and escape, you're pushing, I get the first hand in. That's an opportunity. It's gonna sit there for a while.

Starting point is 01:33:00 And then I go as deep as I can, so the first hand, because the second hand is the hardest, I have to compensate the first hand to be as deeper as I can, so the first hand, because the second hand is the hardest, I have to compensate the first hand to be as deep as I can. If I cannot get the first hand in, deep, I won't try the second. I need that first hand deep, then I go for the second. And it's deeper, everything is super tight. The first hand has to be super tight, otherwise the chance of failing is very big. Okay. Does the opponent usually feel like they're screwed at that point also?

Starting point is 01:33:29 No, as you put in the first hand and the moment that I position myself just prior to attempt the second hand, I think the way my body is positioned, the way I'm collapsing with my weight and they feel it's like it's, you know, this is terrible. Yeah, how long do I take you to figure out how to reposition your weight once the first hand is in? Very quickly. Because do I get brushed out?

Starting point is 01:33:55 Okay, so that there's a good feedback. Yeah, because one mistake you have, like one off positioning you out. But you still have to do that against the best people in the world. Yeah. Where's the way out for most people, like if you were in Mal against Puchesha, or some of the best defenses in the world?

Starting point is 01:34:13 The way out is to, I mean, the obsolete to defend themselves and prevent the first hand to get deep. And I'll say the best thing that they could do is try to change my positioning on the mount in a way that you know push me to a very low mount. You know try to to to to to change the way I'm dominating you not to be you know to get me off the high mount pretty much. Are you always is it as slow as it is fast things? You go from low to low, fast, slow.

Starting point is 01:34:47 A high mount, slow, very slow. Because I need to beat your arms. Because you hold them you down. And the arms, it's come out, it's a slow, it's a slow process. Okay. And it just, is there like a, yeah. It's, it's, it's, it's my legs against your arms.

Starting point is 01:35:01 Yeah. So it's my legs pushing your arms. But how do you get them? How do you get your legs into the elbows? It's as long as this, you know, it has to come under the tip of your elbow because now the legs will start forcing your arms up. So your legs are like spread out. They're no, they're in your elbow cannot get inside my leg because that means I'm in a very low amount. And then I cannot attack, because I cannot ignore that. Because the moment that I attack, that will start pushing my leg to push me up. What's the secret to getting the second hand? There's two ways. You go four fingers inside, which is the hardest, because the moment

Starting point is 01:35:41 you have two hands are defending, you'll be blocking the way. And I cannot clear and attack two hands against one. So I go thumb in, I go behind a ear. So my grip goes because for you to defend, you need to get there. And when you get there, you elevate your ear with supposed the unlock. to get there. And when you get there, you elevate your air, we expose the amlook. So it's so you put the thumb in. And then there's the dreaded like the other person just waits for you

Starting point is 01:36:13 to loop the arm over about that. This over. It's once you get the thumb in it's over. Okay. No, but when I'm there, it's if I get that it because they're bridging, you in, it's over. Okay. But when I'm there, if I get that, because they're a bridge, you know, they try and, I'm not using their hand to post. Now your head is, your head is very close to the floor. When I've tried to bridge, you know, my forehead will touch the floor, that will be used as a hand.

Starting point is 01:36:37 But it's not on the floor, not necessarily. Okay. Because if you zone the floor, my body's collapsed over you. Yeah. So there's no place for my hand, for me to work on your neck. So I need some space between us. So I don't completely... You may be able to bob up and down, kind of.

Starting point is 01:36:52 Yeah, yeah, but I try to keep a gap between us. So that pursuit that takes many, many, many, many years, I don't know if you've seen georgreams of sushi. Doing the simple thing, that's not so simple, but it kind of looks simple. Over and over and over and over and over and presumably getting much better. It becomes very simple. But you're picking up details probably along the way. There's wisdom along the way. What is that?

Starting point is 01:37:23 There's like lessons that you just kind of accumulate over time. Like one training session you'll see maybe like the positioning of the thumb, like this detailed positioning of the thumb or something like this. And then you're like, okay, you, you like load that in. There, there will be very basic because there is not that many different ways. Maybe one, two. I just do one. Any other is not as strong because it's about getting a strong grip on your collar. I mean, the sun is, the sun goes inside, you know, is it the sun, or four fingers and

Starting point is 01:38:02 it's getting a strong grip on the collar? As long as this is just holding and feeling strong. So that's just two options. So it's the dynamic stuff along the way. And then some of that is timing too. It's timing. Are you also making people like faking them out, making them think about something else? No, not that point.

Starting point is 01:38:24 There's not because I cannot fake anything else at that point, because I would have to change my positioning to, you know, maybe to fake an armlock. Then I have to move out from that. So then I will lose that the control I have. So what's the process towards mastery? If you were to convert that to something that generalizes beyond the jiu-jitsu, how can you get that good at a simple thing? Practice.

Starting point is 01:38:49 And what? That's simple. The same exact thing over and over. It just a matter of how long it would take. So all... That's true. That's true. I mean, like I said, that's true.

Starting point is 01:39:03 Look how long it took me. People give up along the way. There is intricacies to that journey towards perfection. There's a lot of people that do Jiu Jitsu for decades and don't get better. No, because they don't train the way they should. They don't train to get better. They train to get tough. There's a big difference. Most people they train to get tough, so they are tough. You know, like we were talking before, they don't practice the weakness. You want to be good at, you want to be really good at your G2. You have to practice your weakness, not your strength.

Starting point is 01:39:39 You have to practice everything, but you have to be equally strong in every position. They all exact the same. You know, your guard top bottom, side control top bottom, turtle, half guard, mount, back. I mean, you pick, take down. It's, and then you get into details of escaping triangle, applying the triangle, escaping armlock, different scenarios of, you know, the one thing is

Starting point is 01:40:08 defending the armlock when you have your arms very close to your body, the other thing is to defend the arms when your arm is almost getting. And then when you got your arm, so there's so many things to practice that you need to repeat them over and over again until you're confident enough that when you get there you have a chance. And you could do the same kind of thing for even the final stages of a cross-joke for a month. Everything. I mean, of course, like you don't practice escaping the armlock with a full arm straight because, you know, it has gone. I mean you practice, you know you practice keeping the arm lock when he takes your arm you have you know you have a chance

Starting point is 01:40:51 of trying to escape but you don't practice. You know okay take my arm when I say go go I mean you got you know you put the arm that is like you get injured doing that. You're escaping the cross-color choke, it's, I mean, escaping not letting the person get there. You can escape, you can practice escaping triangles because you know, it's like, it's, you have a way better escape in triangle than, okay, mount to me, both hands in my neck. I mean, it's over. You know, don't be there. What's the best submission in GJ?

Starting point is 01:41:27 It's over, you know, don't be there. What's the best submission in jiu-jitsu? The choke, I would say for which position If I give you a million dollars to start in a position Like in a submission and you only get the billion if you get the submission which one would you start? Ch go to them out? Because call it trucking them. Not from the back. No. You have a better chance escaping from the back. Really? Yeah. Even with the hooks. Even with everything. Do you think some people disagree with you? I don't care. I have a better escape. I have a better chance escaping from the back than if you mount on me put my hands on my neck. So I've been that many times, you were facing yourself and I will give you a billion dollars to escape.

Starting point is 01:42:09 You would, you would pick from the back a thousand times of like, really no compared to you have like a, with hooks with like a triangle, like, a mirror, you can do whatever you want, like a body triangle. Okay. Okay. Like a thousand times over. No questions. The youth amount is a super controlling position.

Starting point is 01:42:28 It's not just because cross collar choking them out, the moment they put both hands on my neck, you know, you have to, your arms need to be very close to your body too. Attack. So that means there's very little space between us. So that means there's very little space for you to work on your escape. And the moment that you cannot bridge,

Starting point is 01:42:50 let's suppose I have, you know, the person has a good mouth so you can oblige him off. What else? You don't have space to try to work on your defense. Being in the back, I have all the space around me to work on my defense and my arms,

Starting point is 01:43:04 I have the mobility to bring them anywhere. So, because of that, it gives you a much better chance. And you cannot, I can move my body. If you are in my back, you cannot pin me. I cannot take you off my back. First, I need to defend the choke, but you have no control over my body. So that means there's still a lot of movement that I can try to use to escape. In the mount there's no movement.

Starting point is 01:43:35 I'm pinned down. I cannot move and I have no space between us to escape. Well, the argument against that, this is great, is that on the bottom of my, I do have my hands between, so you're saying they're pinned, there's nothing. Between where? I mean, you could get them in theory. You could somehow, you could, but there's no, you can, but then there's no space. They'll be squeezed between our bodies.

Starting point is 01:44:01 If it's an incredible, if it's an incredible mouth, no, it does not mount like how standing if I put both hands on your neck, if I'm going to go for the cross collar choke, after I get my hands in, the next step is to pull your clothes to me. So it's this, my arms needs to be closed. But I can put, there's a hands that could do something. They can come in, but yes, they have very limited space between us. No, I mean, to push your body away to do it. Only to be standing. If your back is against the floor. Sure. Okay. The argument against the mount is, or the argument for back controls being the most dominant position is even though I have hands, I can't really use them effectively as effective. Nine in the month. There's no space. There's no space.

Starting point is 01:44:45 There's no space. You can try. I mean, you can squeeze your hand in. I mean, there's still things that you could do, but they're so limited. So if you pulled the 100 best competitors of all time, what do you think they would answer to that? Do you think most of them agree with you?

Starting point is 01:45:06 I don't care. You will show me their skills, their ability to see. Okay, so the perfect mouth versus the perfect back control. There's no question. Okay, there's no question. For me, I mean, argue with me like, show me, because I'm not being stubborn because I'm being, I'm being scientific.

Starting point is 01:45:29 So explain it to me why the back, it would be harder, it would be better to be a position to finish the amount. If you can explain it to me why, I might change my mind. I was trying to, but I don't have the cred. I'm like a middle school assigned student trying to talk to Einstein here. Okay, besides you, who do you think is the greatest jiu-jitsu competitor of all time? Can you make the case for some of them Marcelo, Wuxesha, Leandro Lo? I'll have to go with Wuxesha, because look at how many titles he has.

Starting point is 01:46:14 He has by far more than Marcelo. Marcelo stopped quietly. Leandro Lo has eight, but Wuxesha is better than him. What do you think makes Wuxesha so good? He's a heavy weight that moves like a lightweight. He moves very fast, but he's very agile for his size. So the agility combined with aggression. Yeah, so he's very hard to control him because he moves fast and he's 112 kilos,

Starting point is 01:46:47 only 15 sometimes, 110. I'm not sure what he's about around that. So 240 in pounds. So when you when you agile 240 pounds, that makes it very hard to control you. What about making the case for some others? What about the little guys? What about Marcel? If you were to make the case for him being the strongest? What makes Marcelo good? Marcel Garcia is extremely technical. I mean, I think he's one of my favorite duties of fire is because in a technical way, I think he's probably one of the best. Because raw technique and a bunch of different positions for submissions. He's not very powerful, you know, physically he's not very strong, but he can make himself very strong and his technique is very very high level.

Starting point is 01:47:33 Have you ever trained with him? No, I fought him twice. Yeah, it's, you know, the most smaller than me. What happened in those matches? The first fight, I tapped him, think, five minutes in which submission. Choked from the back, call a choke from the back. In the second time, I'm bidding by points, but I'm very large. I think 12 to actually, um, just to continue.

Starting point is 01:48:02 I wonder if, uh, if John Dada would agree with you about mountain back. I can't wait to hear it. This is the bare versus lying conversation. I'm looking, there's statistics about, not letting this go. There's statistics about, oh, look at that, Hodger. What do you know? Looking at Hodger, Gracacy statistics for most successful submissions? Choke from the back is the most.

Starting point is 01:48:28 So, so how do you explain panic when I'm scientists? Because people panic when I'm out. They turn the back. I choked them out. That's one explanation. But for people, it is interesting that, of course, this doesn't capture, but this captures a lot of your major matches.

Starting point is 01:48:43 And we should say that you've submitted most of your opponents. So you rarely win on points, usually wins submissions. Choke from back is most of them then cross choke from Mount. Arm bar is a lot too. 18 from choke from back, 12 cross choke, 10, Arm bar, five RNC, where naked is it for no ghee? Okay. So is it close and then is it very powerful? I took, is that strong weapon? Yeah, also from Mount. Oh, that's when you can't get the one hand in.

Starting point is 01:49:17 No, because the Zikio most times I use against people is that is that attack that as soon as I get to the mount when they trying to escape the open up and I get them. It has to be at that initial timing. So it's not a thing you used to like bother them in order to go there. Either I get it right right away or I don't bother try much. Because you need to keep one hand behind the head. And you naturally own that position as soon as you mount. Most of the times. And the moment you mount someone, no one accept that they go mounted, they're going to explode to get out.

Starting point is 01:49:54 So holding the head, it gives you a better way. We wait to dominate them initially, you know, to deal with that explosion is on the beginning, on the initial, on the beginning. And then, but then you have to let go to try it. You'll very limited the hold in the head. In terms of goats, Shangi, I feel like he doesn't get enough credit that he deserves. He had extremely dominant performance in competition. What about Salo and Shangi, hebbero? What are your thoughts about what makes them so good? Yeah, a bunch of tough matches with Shandhi. Yeah, and Salo. Eight times.

Starting point is 01:50:32 Yeah, four eight times Shandhi. I fought Salo once. What, I think I'm bringing up a sore point. Oh, did Chonji tap or did the time run out and that was the last time you guys face each other? Yeah, 2008. That was incredible to watch. Also, I think you pulled guard with one minute left, working towards attacking. I mean, it's probably very tough to get anything. And the for people who don't know time right now, you had something that looked like an arm

Starting point is 01:51:11 block. And Sean G looked like he may be tapping, but it looked like he might be just celebrating. Which is most like I'm not sure. I'm not sure. It was, I'm not sure. Because I think he's just straight his arm time finish. So I'm not sure if he was tapping to let go time, time is up. Or because of the outside, most likely the time was up. Yeah, and also there's a thing we start. You realize there's only three, two seconds left, you used to kind of start celebrating. You realize that Hodg is not going to be able to finish this hard bar in the time left, so you start celebrating. No, I think he top to

Starting point is 01:51:56 say the time is up. Anyway, what do you think that the longevity, especially as impressive with with with Shangji. How long? I think he doesn't get credit as much as he deserves because he pushed his career very far. And the last few years, he was on his best. So he's, if you were to stop before, you know, you would, people would remember him on his highs, but he kind of pushed more than his peak, let's say.

Starting point is 01:52:34 How hard is it for you to walk away? We'll talk about the journey in time of May as well, but you basically, especially with the second match against Puchashi, basically walked away on top, beating arguably the greatest compared of all time and just walking away. It wasn't that hard to be honest because there was something that I was considering for a while because the last few years of my career, let's say, it was fighting MMA at the same time as fighting jujitsu, and it's very challenging to do both. Like, I don't, there's not another person who ever did that, because the training is a confliction with the war you train. Everybody who start doing MMA, start focusing MMA, their jujitsu gets worse because they

Starting point is 01:53:27 stop training with the G. Everybody, no exception. Was your jujitsu also getting worse? No, because I made sure I kept training with the G. And I kept fighting at least the World Championship once a year. That was my goal. I'm like, I'm gonna go for MMA, but I love judges when I still wanna fight the highest level. So I kept fighting once a year for a few years. It was a challenge, especially because the two or three times

Starting point is 01:53:59 when I competed at the Worlds, it was right after I MMA fight ahead. And no ghee, you don't, you don't have the grips. So my grips, it made a big difference. Oh, my grip. So I was weaker grip wise. So I felt that. So I knew it was like, it's, it's unnecessary risk because I'm not, if I cannot be 100% so why, what am I doing this? But I'm stubborn. I love juditsu. That's like I love fighting juditsu. I never loved MMA. I've liked it, but I think it's for Greece. I wouldn't done it. So the thing you felt the most is the grips. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:54:42 Because you want a key world championship without gripping. No. Like just pretending it's no game match. They get to grip you, but you don't know. So grips are essential. Of course, I mean, how can you choke someone like it's if you grips a weak, you're your forearms will fatigue. And then you will have no power.

Starting point is 01:55:03 And then you cannot do anything. Yeah. You just still are mocking. So I meant more not for the submission but for the control of the game of it. But you need to you need to grip together. Together. And you figure it's a week. But you also have grips and no gate. Can't you use those grips? No. This is a thought experiment experiment So like I'm trying to understand how essential like get a no ghee guy go fight with the guide panic Panic of course everyone panics a bear panics when they're in the water with a shark But that doesn't mean the bear can't still win when it stops panic and it relaxes It's not possible. That's another discussion. Can a bear be the shark in the water? Actually, I need to put me a polar bear because they're pretty good swimming. Okay. I say not possible for the no gay guy to win

Starting point is 01:55:54 the bears as a further discussion What was to you the biggest difference between mixed martial arts and GJSU? What are some interesting differences some insights, even just about the grappling within both sports? So the biggest difference for me between MMA and Jiu-Jitsu is first is the speed like Jiu-Jitsu, you know, like at 10 minutes match. I can take my time. There's no dangers That forces me to move fast. MMA, you have to be a hundred percent sharp in fast from first second of the fight because punches are coming again, knocked out anytime. One mistake, you're out. To just you don't have that, like it's, I don't have to worry about quick submission because it's all about the way my body is positioned.

Starting point is 01:56:47 You know, my grip is easy to avoid, it's easier to see it coming. Like, it's like a quick submission or surprise, it only works if you make a mistake. If you're not correct positionally. Otherwise, it's extremely difficult. MMA is not. I mean, one split second stake, and when the person comes, you have to respond. You have to match his pace. I mean, you can slow down, but it's like you're forced to respond. So, it's a much more physical, a lot more. And you need to be physical, much better condition and faster, it's explosiveness, it's much harder.

Starting point is 01:57:32 Is it possible in the MMA to calm things down? If they change the rules, yeah, five minute rules now. Ah, I see. So like, I just meant actually technically speaking, is there a way to take an opponent that's being exceptionally aggressive? You can. Clinch. But then he takes it down, he keeps moving.

Starting point is 01:57:55 Something is hard to control that pace. You can. If you play defense, you save more energy than if you try to be the aggressor and respond. And even getting to the clinch is very difficult. Yeah, you have no way to hold yourself there. So that was the biggest challenge for me in MMA is the speed, because I'm a very slow star fighter.

Starting point is 01:58:18 If you look at my matches, I start very slow, because if I go hard, you know, I fatigue faster. So for me, that was the hardest part of this to start fast. What about on the ground? Is there something different, more challenging on the ground? Being in the bottom, yes. This punch is coming. How fundamentally different is you just to punch as on the ground?. Change everything. Everything. Which parts? The distance that you allow your opponent to be on you, the techniques that you choose to apply, you know, you have to,

Starting point is 01:58:56 your body has to be aware of the punches and you know, you are a lot more limited when you're a tax. So you're known for your close guards. How does your close guard have to adjust? How does the position of your hands have to adjust when you're on the bottom of close guard? So in the guy, especially in the close guard, you have to keep the person very close to you

Starting point is 01:59:16 or you have to kick him away. That's the in the guard is either I'm hugging you or get away from him. And it just yearl out there in the middle. Yeah,. And you just see a lot of middle, yeah, and just so you taste a lot, you can allow the person to be. What about getting arm lock or triangle submissions from the guard?

Starting point is 01:59:36 Is that fundamentally different? Because you don't have the middle game. It's much harder. There's barely no open guard in MMA very little. Because the open guard has a distance between you and him. There's a distance to you. How you cannot control is much harder to control that punch coming. And I have to position myself away to block that and it limped my attacks my options of attacks. Is there a reason? Correct me from wrong, but I don't think you do open guard much in jiu-jitsu and nogi.

Starting point is 02:00:13 Is there a reason for that? It's harder with the explosive explosion of person because it's not when they're moving fast, then you have to try to slow them down. So you like guards that allow you to control the person. And close guard is the auto control. Yeah. It's not ultimate control, but close guard puts in a position that I'm attacking in your

Starting point is 02:00:36 defending. You cannot attack me for my close guard. We can aggregate that there's might be one or two attacks, but it's very, very, very limited and depends on where you're fighting against. I hate the close guard. Being on top, well, against a good close guard is very, very, very, very stable. It's horrible. It's one sided.

Starting point is 02:00:59 So, even the guard and he's one sided, the person the bottle has that advantage. I can be completely relaxed in my close God. And I cannot be completely relaxed. Know the most annoying thing is somebody who is both good and extremely confident with the close guard, because they have that smug energy about them. They know how much unpleasant, how much work it takes to pass this. Anyway, especially people with longer legs. Is there something you wish you did differently in how you started

Starting point is 02:01:31 training in MMA in that trajectory, in figuring out how to train how to get good? Like, what have you learned about getting good at MMA from having done it? If you were to start now, for example, I think I'd have to dedicate it more. I didn't dedicate enough Both like literally time number of training sessions. Yeah, awesome until anyways physical Yeah, I think a lot more the physical part of it the strikes everything strike from the beginning. It's because I mean, I love judy to like it's, it's, I truly love all the aspects of it,

Starting point is 02:02:08 fighting, training, you know, the practice, the competition. I don't have that for MMA. So it's hard to give your heart to it, something that you don't have the passion to it. Like, Jiu Jitsu, you know, I gave my heart to it. Like, I did everything that I had to. MMA, I never, I didn't do that. So that's why I was, I won't say it was wrong for me to have to do it because I don't regret doing it. I always, you know, looking back as a kid when I decided to, you know, to take to Jesus for life.

Starting point is 02:02:42 I already knew that at some point I would have to do MMA. As a kid when I decided to you know to be to take two digits of all life I I already knew that some point I would have to do MMA. There's almost like that's the path of a Gracie You know you when you're ready you go doing me So there was like a duty versus love. Yeah, that was that was not a choice. That was like I have to That's just the the life I took you will lead that way Are you proud of that step? You know go against the natural love and towards more duty? I think I Don't regret it because if I hadn't done it

Starting point is 02:03:21 I will feel there was something missing. Yeah. So, I don't regret doing that. I would regret not doing. The tricky thing is the choice to go to MMA could have compromised your ability to win against Buchecha. And it didn't. And it's a fascinating case study. It still doesn't make sense to me. After all those years you're able to come back and go against the best person in the world and beat him. And I had to because the first fight we had, I had something stuck in my throat for a long time.

Starting point is 02:04:02 You think about that? Oh yeah. I'm like, well, as soon as that first fight finished, I had said that got stuck in my throat that I already at that point, I knew I'm going to have to fight him again. I knew I always knew. There's no choice. I have to. Oh, man. All right. Well, in terms of no ghee, who do you think is the best no ghee compared to all time? There's no question, you know, is his garden is... I mean, I don't think it's right to say the best compared to all time,

Starting point is 02:04:39 because he's still very young. I think that's something that he can be arguing in the end of when the person... You don't want want to get lazy You know, I mean, but you cannot pray someone in the middle of his career, you know So you cannot call him the best ever He's 26 or 27. So it's I mean he's he's great. He's very good. He's ahead of all of all of other competitors, I think and I mean he's having an amazing career, you know, he's doing amazingly well.

Starting point is 02:05:09 So, I mean, when he's, when he finished, when he finally retired, then you can aggregate like, you know what, there's wisdom in that. It matters how you finish, right? Of course, it's very interesting. I think the Nogi is relative new that Nogi has seen. That was not seen before. I think he started now on his generation, you know, his time. Because before, like, when I was competing, Nogi was just ADCC. There's nothing else.

Starting point is 02:05:42 Every two years, first was only in the Emirates. You know, he had to go there to compete. So there was not even a scene. There was like this one time that that gives a lot of money to, you know, to comparators to fighters. It brings fighters for modern modalities, you know, for modern modalities, Mark Van Ars de O, some wrestlers, Greg Romain, they keep competing against each other. And they create that set of rules to try not to favor anyone. So that was it. So you cannot be called the greatest do-ge of all time if you only have one tournament every two years.

Starting point is 02:06:25 Only in the emery there have to be invited too. But I think now you know you grew a lot. Now we have so many different tournaments. Now we have a scene. You have people that only train no ghee, they're fully dedicated to no ghee. And you have supervised different tournaments. So now is say there is now you know now is professionally You can do just no Gina which before was on her of it because you you have one or two tournaments If you cannot be called on a no-gear fighter fighting once or once every two years twice every two years Yeah, now there's entire yeah systems that are optimized for no-gear that could be fundamentally different like what do you think about the body lock? Like this passing with the body lock. I don't know if you get an understanding of it. Yeah, that I think it's okay

Starting point is 02:07:17 It's a it's a popular way to What is it? to maybe to apply to what is it to maybe to apply, to stay tight, to stay tight. Very close, your opponent, so he can't push a creed distance, he can push away. But somehow it shuts down the hips as well. Yeah. Makes it more difficult to defend. And I drop your legs, your back back I stuck on against the floor.

Starting point is 02:07:45 Are you like scientifically curious about these new developments? Do you have answers in your head to them? Most. So body lock is one interesting one. Obviously, foot locks is another. And that'll mean just the foot locks, the whole like control aspect of the full ox That's interesting and there's other interesting stuff John is really into The wrestling aspect but not wrestling wrestling but wrestling everywhere

Starting point is 02:08:20 Gigi's who at all levels of the plane That's that's very interesting because you know, obviously GJS has not really been, you know, unlike freestyle wrestling and so on, it's not been a systematic scientific, rigorous exploration of wrestling. It's like you're on your feet and you're on the ground. Not much. There's a lot of interest. John Newse academic, he tried to, you know, numbers, mathematics, everything. You kind of are too. No, I mean not. I am because you have to understand what you're doing.

Starting point is 02:08:56 There's everything, there's a step by step, like logistic, like details. Every single move, there's a reason for it. You know, there's a reason for it. There's things around that happens. It's the more you know, the better you are, right, the more knowledgeable, compared to whatever. So I think with the foot locks, with the no-ge, like if you look back,

Starting point is 02:09:21 if you think of, used to be seen as a really bad thing to attack the foot, it wasn't seen as a really bad thing to attack the foot. It wasn't seen as a good option of attack. Mainly, what is the like respectable gentleman don't attack the leg of it? No, because if you look back, you know, the tournaments, the window were created, all the rules and everything else was to simulate a real fight with no punches, with no heavy negi. I mean, if you ask, what is jujitsu? everything else was to simulate a real fight with no punches, but now having a ghee. I mean, if you ask, what is Jiu Jitsu? Like what are you trying? What's the main

Starting point is 02:09:49 goal of Jiu Jitsu? To dominate your opponent? What's the main goal of fighting? It's refiding. It's of course submission is the ultimate goal. But before that, the main goal is to dominate you. Like ref we're fighting, I have to dominate you. And then the submission comes. And foot locks, I don't require any domination on you. I don't need to be in a dominant position to attack your foot. And if I attack your foot, you're still free to knock me out. If your body goes down to my foot, I can still come closer,

Starting point is 02:10:26 you stand up and open your chest. So it's not a good position to be in a real fight. To attack in the foot. I mean, how many times you see that going bad? That going bad in a MMA fight? I mean, of course, you had some sort of success with the hoolhoek. It's no questions, but how many times went wrong? People go unacktired attacking the foot. So you can't say it's the best position to be.

Starting point is 02:10:51 It's okay to go, but it's a very high-risk position to go. So that's why it's not in a real situation, it's not seen as a good thing. So when you translate that to jujitsu, when attacking the foot, it's not seen as a good thing because when you reflect that to a real situation, it's not going to go down well. So it was always seen as an easy way out, you know, easy cut. You're trying to do the easy path. You can't pass my guard, you can't dominate me, then you're trying to attack my foot. That's why it was always seen as a, you know, as not as a best,

Starting point is 02:11:24 a great submission, a way to win. attack my foot. That's why I was always seen as a, you know, as not as a bass. A great submission of which went. But the sad side of fact that it was completely underdeveloped because of that. Exactly. Of course. So people never really developed that. But now they do the tournaments, they're defining it got completely, not completely, but you got some, it's not longer seen as, you know, as a simulation of the real thing. Now it's a, now it's a sport. It's only seen as a sport. So now it doesn't matter if you attack my foot,

Starting point is 02:11:54 you cannot punch me. So why is it bad now to attack the foot? It's just not seen as a best thing anymore. And it, it, it now you got really developed. I don't know, that's another bear versus shark question. But you know, there is in a street self defense situation, it's possible to imagine where foot locks would be effective for highly. But I guess if you invest 10,000 hours, it's better to invest it in chokes.

Starting point is 02:12:27 Yeah, to dominate, if I'm, you know, if I were fighting, it's way better for me to be on your side control on the mount, where I can pin you, be completely safe, then to stay inside your legs, trying to attack your foot. But people would argue that there's a lot of very dominant controlling positions in the whole full log game, Right. It is, but you can go Brad very quickly. Yeah. Just. No, I mean, there's some great ways to control someone that he cannot escape, but he can go

Starting point is 02:12:53 bad very quickly. That's the thing. Well, even back control can go bad very quickly on the street. So mount, I don't know, is mount a really good position? But then there's no good position then. There's no position. There's no position. There's no position.

Starting point is 02:13:11 Every position, there's a risk. Okay? Attacking the foot is a way higher risk than psychoncule mount, back. As I'm saying, the back is not the best way to pin someone unless you underneath me. Because if you try to rotate, I can sacrifice the back and just allow you to be in the mouth. Okay, there you go. Would you prefer mal or back mal or they're flattened?

Starting point is 02:13:39 Like a still mouth. That I get you. So yeah, go back to Gordon. What do you think makes that guy so good? We were just a ADCC. You get to see him historically down the performance. His dedication, the way he trains and how much he trains. And of course, you have to add his mind, his belief

Starting point is 02:14:06 to really try to be good. The best or, you know, I don't know, what his goals are, but I know he's trying to be better than his opponents. So his belief, a very strong, his dedication, he probably trains more than everybody else. I mean, I haven't seen first handed, but from what I hear interviews with him and everybody else. I mean, I'm, I haven't seen first-handed, but for what I hear interviews with him and everybody else training, I, you know, the way everybody trains, you know,

Starting point is 02:14:31 trying to, for my little knowledge I have, I, I, I, I, I bet he trains more than everybody else. And most important, how he trains. And when I, I kind of already knew, but when I heard John podcast with you the other day, John was explaining the preparation, the training for the DCC and that kind of gave me a very stronger idea how they've been training all these years. So, you know, when we said, it's, you have to work on your weakness. So you have no weakness. He trains a lot on his weakness, which not everyone does that. If you look, I'm not going to name, but other main schools,

Starting point is 02:15:16 when like very strong comparators, great comparators, super tough people, but super tough. Not great. Because they train, they spa very hard. That makes them tough. If you want to be good, you have to work on your weakness. Because when you spa, like we say, how many times you're going to practice, escaping a bad position,

Starting point is 02:15:41 like a submission hold or a pinion position, a psychon troll mount or this very little damn mount Time you get to spend on those positions if you don't start there so that He's very smart the way he trains and part of that is also cerebral. It's not just putting yourself in those positions But talking through different ideas like they they talk They like experiment. At first glance, it's like philosophical almost. You're trying to create systems constantly, you're trying to understand how this fits into this big picture.

Starting point is 02:16:19 And then you go back to what is fighting, he's fighting for dominance. He's fighting for the ultimate dominance positions, which is back amount. There's no others. From that you finish. If you look back at his, over the years of his past fights, before he used to mainly focus in legs, over the past few years, now he's mainly focusing and finishing from the mountain back. That's when he became really good. So part of that is Mr. John Donahar. What do you think you've known John for a long time? What makes that guy interesting, special and good?

Starting point is 02:17:03 What have you learned about Jiu JJitsu in life from John.her? He's super smart, I mean, eccentric, and he leaves through Jiu-Jitsu. He's 24, 7, thinking better ways to teach, how to make his comparators better. And that as a coach, when you have that dedication as a coach, that it makes the most difference of your athletes.

Starting point is 02:17:27 Like, which other big team you have that coach with that motivation? All the other schools, is either someone that competes, that pushes the training, like André Goval, it's one of the competitors. So he brings the hype in everyone else, but he doesn't have the time. He doesn't spend the time working individually. I mean, I'm sure he does, but it's limited because he's also a competitor. And, you know, looking most of the other big schools, like, you don't have that. Now, all the leaders, the main coaches for the other big schools, they have other things in their lives. They don't fully dedicate it to the athletes.

Starting point is 02:18:07 John does, you know, look at the interview, his fans, hours and hours that they study how can await the system, you know, to make his athletes better. Look at the results. I enjoy just sending back and forth. You can actually just get him, you control him essentially by sending interesting videos and you could just see his mind. He's gonna do research on that. Because I kept sending him videos of bears

Starting point is 02:18:35 because he claimed that a lion would be the bear because I'd love to get your take on this, okay? So the bear is much bigger, much stronger. But his take is that the bears don't have experience of fighting to the death. That's not part of the culture. They're more scared. In fact, he keeps sending me footage of like even like a small mountain lion scaring a bear away because they don't want to fight. So his idea is that it really matters your life experience, how much you fight.

Starting point is 02:19:12 It's not necessarily the skill, like the dimensions, the characteristics you have. But then I send him, he'll show you. I'll show you. I'll show you. People should Google this. It's bears fighting of any kind. It's pretty much the most epic thing ever. Here I'll show you. Look at these guys. The cardio, those interesting. It was funny. I was going to mention that because I was flipping to internet.

Starting point is 02:19:42 I came around that video. Look how big these guys are. They don't buy each other. You think it's just plain. They try to intimidate because they don't want to get hurt. So they try to size each other up. You see the whole fighting is sizing each other up. There's a lot of pushing and the first or sixth of the cloth doesn't really damage much. They're using the trees so maybe they yeah they're I mean they there is bites but see there's very little so the whole time they're trying to intimidate the other one like winning the fight by their size.

Starting point is 02:20:28 And mostly about like the way drunk college kids fight, which is like some kind of display of dominance versus actual, they are not fighting to kill. And bear or tiger, you know, they fight to finish. Unless the other one runs away like one will die Yeah, lines and text yeah, I Look like cardio look a bad cardio is I wonder how My favorite part is where one of them just like stands behind a tree. It says all right. He's holding says, all right. He's holding.

Starting point is 02:21:06 She's getting the fresh my breath. He's just down. It's like, all right, you can't. It's over. It's like, it's equally in the in the in the forest like wrapping out. All right, all right, you got me. Let me just ask you to look at the boat like, uh, just shot. I guess you were, looked at both like, just shot. Mm-hmm. And, but see, the thing that I was trying to make an argument for is that we get this rare footage. It's not rare, I mean, it was like conscious of videos, but it's not millions of videos,

Starting point is 02:21:36 because there's a huge number of bears. And I was trying to say that there's some badass bear we don't know about, because he just goes in there and just does work and we just don't know about it because he's like ever see it don't think it's if you kill a lot of other animals you probably have a territory that nobody's gonna mess with you so it's very hard to catch the like the hajjagrecy of bears you know he's just gonna be sitting there doing nothing. So, I don't know.

Starting point is 02:22:08 I don't know. I feel like, of course, when you corner him, John will say that if you put a bear and a lion in a cage, the bear will win if it's like, if it's the force to be to the death, but I don't know. Oh, let me ask you another ridiculous thing before I ask't know. Oh, let me ask you another ridiculous thing before I ask serious questions. So Joe Rogan thinks that a tie is an effective way

Starting point is 02:22:32 to attack somebody. I don't know if I can't believe I haven't in the time in Vegas. I didn't talk to you about this. I think it's not. Have you ever explored this as the best choker in the world? Have you ever explored the use? Because choker in the world? Have you ever explored the use because like you just who has the jacket but the tie To me is a pretty shitty

Starting point is 02:22:53 Way to choke somebody like intuitively things like it's a good way, but it can slide around It's it feels like if you feel like there's no There's no way to really pin your need to. Right. So you use it the way you use a belt essentially. Yeah. But then I'll give you a little guess. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:23:14 I don't think it's... And I think it gives you... It actually has the reverse effect, which it gives you the falseness of confidence that you can use it. And instead, you'll just distract you. So he thinks it's a stronger way than the collar? Or just a stronger? Yeah, stronger than the collar. Yeah, yeah.

Starting point is 02:23:31 I don't see how. Maybe just like in a street fight scenario, right? But the time you grab the tie, the guy goes, put your nose. Yeah. But what George St. Pierre thinks is the best use of the ties to actually like a What do you call that? So basically to all balance them Which is an interesting point like I mean to go back to the news to yeah, we can use the jacket for the same kind of thing Yeah, I don't know. I haven't really fully tested it. It's a

Starting point is 02:24:01 I'll say jacket or tie them for that perspective of unbalancing off balancing the person. It can be yeah, because you know, you have control of the person's neck, the collar, you know, the jacket moves. So for the purpose of off balancing the person, not with a great reward. See, the thing is, that's the thing about martial arts. As you can say, all kinds of bullshit. but until you really test it in Overperative years the competition you won't really know I think like that's where my gut says Just how easily the time moves My gut says the collar there is something really powerful about the jacket. There's like the way it sits

Starting point is 02:24:43 I mean the fact that the arms trap it from rotating. Yeah. Like, it's a weird piece of clothing. It's a really dangerous piece of clothing that we put on ourselves. Yeah. Like, and it's kind of cool that we've developed this whole martial art system that allows it to use that to do a lot of damage. It's very interesting.

Starting point is 02:25:01 So when we're saying something that you develop over the years or practice over and over again, going back to the fissions of the mount or back, by experience of attacking people, they, people always had a much higher chance of escaping from the back than from my mount. So it's I feel if I mount to get both my hands on your neck, you cannot escape. If my hands are deep, it's over. Like that. I don't remember anyone's escaping. But I do remember if my hands are deep on your collar or even your naked choke is still a hassle.

Starting point is 02:25:40 Like, see, you have some data on this. Is there some aspect to you, to how your body is the character, succeed your body that fits a particular set of techniques? So if we just look at your gist of broadly, do you see most techniques being able to work for most people like what you're saying about mountain versus back control is this is a possible for a different body type of the mountain is not as effective Yeah, of course I'll say very big people they should amount you don't think yourself as big no big. I mean fat. Oh

Starting point is 02:26:17 They should stay off the mount. Why is that that's a car? I didn't mobility. It's like it's I think there you know you don't see any You know like I was few ways like 160 kilo like you know two pounds. I don't know 270 pounds of a lot of fat. It's you need a bit of mobility and that wouldn't you would play against you. So even even back a great mouth requires mobility. Yeah. Okay. So you even know it doesn't look like you're moving very much when you're doing model that requires mobility. Yeah. Because you have to reposition and wait redistribution.

Starting point is 02:26:53 I just in your body. All right. The legend goes, you got very good by training mostly with lower ranks. What was your training like in that environment? So when I first moved to London, I was 20 years old. I opened my school there. And I had nobody to train with. I had one guy that was teaching with me a black belt, middleweight. He was good. And that's it.

Starting point is 02:27:25 Brawler moved to England the same time as I did, but he was in Birmingham. So we did go together, maybe twice a week, closer, you know, when we were prepared for something. If not, then not very often. As often as we could, but I did,'s say not that often. And I had just callabelle students. There was no one high level. There was no one world champion in any belt to train. Then you need to create a scenario that simulates, that can simulate, you know, like a realistic fighting. So I think on that aspect, you know, when people said, you know, people were asked, why do I have such a basic game?

Starting point is 02:28:11 I think that also influenced me sharpening up all my skills when I moved there. Because, you know, when I'm, if you practice with people, you know, lower level than you, you cannot, there's nothing to learn from them. Or you can learn things and practice with them, but I would say very complex things on them. It is not the best. So I sharpen up all my skills. So that would not really prove everything that I already knew to a higher level.

Starting point is 02:28:43 But how can you sharpen something if the resistance is much lower level than a purple belt can make it very hard for you to skip psychon trope. It doesn't have to be a watch in a black belt. It's, you know, if it's one is holding you, it can be very hard. What about on the attack? How do you become literally by far the best person at the cross-jerk from mount by training with purple belts. Sometimes purple belts defense will be better than black belts. Okay. See, a lot of people listening to that would be like, that makes no sense.

Starting point is 02:29:14 Hydrograzy. How does that make any sense? Because like a lot of the black belts, even more champion, they get to the black belt. They really good in what they do less in the guard, you know, on get to the Blackbird, they really get what they do, they see in the guard on top or in the bottom position, but their defense are not. Very, very few people, high level have a very good defense because they don't practice. Then that goes back to how you train. You can be very tough, very tough, you make a terrible defense because you're not going to practice your weakness. So your weakness is still going to be terrible.

Starting point is 02:29:48 You're going to have the best guard in the world, impossible to pass. The people pass your guard, you're nothing. Like, your guard is high, the highest level, but your side-conchial defense are not. Your mount defense are not. So some purple bells, they practice the mount way more than the black belt did, so the naturally the defense is better. So they get to experience the defensive position much, much, much more, and especially training with you, they get really good at defending. And then over and over again, you attack them with the same thing over and over again. I mean, didn't know what's coming They were blocked. They were developed a defense over that. Yeah

Starting point is 02:30:28 way better than most other high level black belts So both put yourself into really bad positions with low ranks and just keep attacking the same way over and over and over Yeah, and With that you're able to be at the top of the world at the world championships. Yeah. I mean, can you give some, what was the preparation like to a world championship with lower ranks? I mean, I did a lot of boxing, a lot of conditioning. No, but the conditioning is a bit more. Yeah, but the one thing that helped me extremely living in England in London was trainee Judah at the Burakoye in London. That helped me massively because it gave

Starting point is 02:31:12 me the motivation to learn something new because you know by then at the Burakoye they know the standard was I'm sure today it is too but by then was even higher than it is today like there was some very high level judo guys training there and in the first time I went there my standup was terrible compared to theirs I mean it was terrible it was bad but compared to them was terrible so I was getting through like a child and that motivated me to keep coming back and get better. So that made my jujitsu much stronger. I became my base got better, my top game improved, my pressure game improved. Did there's Neil Adams train? I raised Steven's. I've never met Neil Adams.

Starting point is 02:32:03 He's the voice of Judo Arrows. If you watch the turn, he's incredible. Yeah, Stephen's, you know, it was civil med and civil medallist in the Olympics. He won't European him. He won a lot. So you did some Judo training. What's your favorite throw like a Soto like Judo?

Starting point is 02:32:19 Uchimata, I'll say. Uchimata. You followed peak one. So that made you better at Jiu-Jitsu as well. Yeah, yeah. Okay. And back then, like for the first, also maybe three years, maybe four.

Starting point is 02:32:32 I went to Brazil for like two months before every major tournament. So I said, you know, I moved away from the school and I really focused. I was really well prepared with my children, everything else, shopping up my skills. And then we're going to Brazil to train with like really high-level people. So that way I would manage it to compete in the highest level. What advice would you give to let's start with a complete beginner. So you know how much

Starting point is 02:33:01 of people come up to me and they still want They start doing GJ, so what advice would you give them? Try to absorb as much technique as you can and try to be as relaxed as you can. Don't, you know, don't desperately try to fight so hard. Like learn and move slow. Move slow and relax. That's the hardest thing to do. The hardest. You know what I find with people, it seems like it's hard to even know that you're not relaxed. It's like the introspection.

Starting point is 02:33:40 They don't even know what it feels like to relax. Not even no day tense. Yeah, right. They're trying to relax you. Look, are you see what? What do you mean, relax? I'm relaxed. Exactly.

Starting point is 02:33:51 Exactly. I was a shaky. You feel it. In terms of going slow, they're like, yeah, where are I going slow? No, you're not. Yeah. Yeah, there's a, there's a grace and elegance of movement that you can probably pick up from a lot of their

Starting point is 02:34:05 Disciplines like for me I think that came from just learning piano piano at a young age this for I think any mobility thing to learn how to move efficiently you have to know how to relax Yeah, it's just the fact that you can like Body can be tense. It could be relaxed. Just knowing that fact Now imagine you showed the stance. Yeah. You think you play piano well. No, everything has to be relaxed. I guess some of that is mind too, but just knowing that and being self-aware and you,

Starting point is 02:34:35 but see like, even me, you know, approaching a thing, I'm not, I don't know anything about being a beginner. You're going to tense up. And it actually takes a conscious effort to think to relax. And that's, that's why learning things as an adult is much harder than as a child, like it's very hard. And as an adult, it's like to get to the highest level, it's not possible. Because you will never relax the way you should. Yeah. Relax in the way that you become like water, but then you solidify in the right places. Yeah. Yeah. Is there advice you can give to an adult? So like somebody that has a job,

Starting point is 02:35:20 like a hobbyist, like how to progress, how to get... I mean, I have to train, it's just need to train as much as you can, not, you know, five, seven days a week because you're going to get injured. I mean, two, three times a week to start is the best way to, you know, to initiate your duties to journey. And practice the same thing over and over again. When they don't work, it's just because you're not doing well, not because you have to learn something else. Do you see some value in just picking a set of techniques

Starting point is 02:35:52 that seem to draw your heart in, for example, by giving an example, you're going to yell at me. But I never learned the close guard well. It just never connected with me. You could say it's body mechanics, whatever it doesn't matter. The point is, it's just like my heart never connected with it. You know, the way I justified it to myself is I felt like when you're bad, you're using the close guard, you could use the half guard to stall.

Starting point is 02:36:23 So I was really drawn to the butterfly guard as a beginner because I thought, or open guard in general, I have no options to stall, so I'm going to learn. My thinking was, let me do the guard that enforces me to learn. And then I fell in love with the butterfly guard and the open guard and so on. And I never really understood the close guard. And the other

Starting point is 02:36:45 thinking was, do I really need to understand the close guard? Because it's always by choice that I go there. So I can avoid, not, you can avoid anything you want. I mean, you don't have to do anything. Well, in this life, yes, it doesn't make you complete. That means you have to be complete. As a, this is the question. That means you have to be complete as a, this is the question, how valuable is it to be complete to get good? How good do you want to be? Okay, let's go. Well, there's several questions there. Yeah, okay, like to be the best in the world, do you need to be complete? Of course. The best in the world. Of course, you have to be complete. Otherwise, somebody is going to be better than you. What about like to sort of understand the defend, you have to be also good at the offense

Starting point is 02:37:34 and in every single position? Otherwise, you have a weakness and someone can capitalize in that weakness. Okay. What about to be like a hobbyist? And you don't have to. But can you, it hurts you? Then it's still bad. I mean, it's not bad. I mean, nothing is bad. I mean, if you, as a hobbyist, you start late. I mean, it doesn't matter how far you're going to get,

Starting point is 02:37:56 as long as you enjoy it, just train as much as you can. If it's twice a week, twice a week it is. You'll be limited. How could you be training twice a week? Of course. Then the guy that trained twice a week, twice a week it is. You'll be limited, how good you will be training twice a week, of course. Then the guy that trained twice a day, you know, it's this, the more trained the better you get. But you have to select what you train, that's amazing. So, I don't know, yes, but like, for how long?

Starting point is 02:38:17 Like, at some point in your life that you might try something. So if you like it, you know, to that some point in your life that you might okay, let me try close guard. You might not like it now. Maybe in two, three years from now. So I don't like it. I kept trying it. Listen, because listen, it's very difficult to get any respect in Jesus. It's hard to get to black belt and beyond in jiu-jitsu at a respectable place and not and beyond Injiujitsu at a respectable place and not have a good close guard. Close guard is... I mean, they don't do it. It's not necessary. I'm being a rebel.

Starting point is 02:38:52 No, it's not. I'll say, because it's not a position that you under pressure, that if you don't know you're being troubled, you're not going to be in trouble not to know the close guard, you're just going to go straight for open guard. I mean that there's not a problem. The main limitation is if you don't do a close guard a lot that you don't quite, you don't get a full complete picture of understanding how to attack close guard when somebody puts you into a close guard when you're on top. So it's nice to know both sides if it's just to understand. Yeah, but you can have a pretty good understanding of how to defend from the top and not having

Starting point is 02:39:28 any bottom. I mean, some of it is also just like the length of legs and just the geometry of your body. I'm sure Marcel Garcia has a good close guard, but I don't. I've never seen that before. That's the point of trying to make it. In theory, you can imagine it. For hobbyists, I think it's interesting to think of that. Is it possible to focus on a small set of techniques that help you to develop, still

Starting point is 02:40:03 into a good digital career? And still enjoy and still be able to be. Of course, still into a good digital career. Of course. As the enjoyer and still be in the... Most people have this. In the digital world, 99%. I mean, people, they're compete. Even the people that compete in the course. 1% max. And you have high level competitors.

Starting point is 02:40:19 Have no close-guards. Okay. Thank you for me. No, I think you would say that most people don't have a night. Close guard is such a such a difficult position to understand for me. Maybe one day we're brainwashed. Yeah, good. I felt it's too easy to stall versus attack. That that was my main concern. It's like I want to be forced in every way to always be attacking, to always be moving, to always be.

Starting point is 02:40:49 And it felt like if I got really good, I've seen it happen with half guard too. It's like when people get really good at half guard, it just feels stally. If you just look at the matches and so on, it's just slow things down to a thing that's not, you don't get reps on learning, you don't get action in interesting ways.

Starting point is 02:41:11 So that was my worry that I'll get old and fat and just sit in closed guard all day holding on to the white belts trying to kill me. Cause it's also, I mean, that's the other thing for hobbyists and for everyone is to, like when you's also, I mean, that's the other thing for hobbyists and for everyone is to like when you first start, I think you have to relax in the face of the fact that you're just getting your ass kicked now, stop. Yeah. That can also be really tough on the ego.

Starting point is 02:41:36 I think the probably the right way to see that is your growing as a person. You'll see that clearly when they are like in a bad position, let's say, side mount or mount. Like a beginner, he will never relax on those positions. The moment they say go, they like trying to be pushed out and they explode. There's no relaxation and work on the different, it's like no, it's out and go until I have zero to give, until I'm exhausted, my arms cannot move. It's kind of fun to watch actually. What's the role of drilling?

Starting point is 02:42:15 Do you like drilling? I do not like drilling, but I'll tell you why. I think fighting is mechanic, right? So it's very important to drill a move until you learn the mechanic. Of course, it's important. If someone want to teach an arm lock, you want to practice their movement until you learn the mechanic of it, but the guy is not resisting, so it's easy to apply it, right? So you apply as many times as you have to, until you know the mechanic of the moves,

Starting point is 02:42:50 until you can apply the mechanics. The moment that you know how to apply, there's no more pointing drilling, now you have to practice. Now you have to practice with resistance. Of course, you're not going to practice with the guy fully resisting, the guy is better than you, because he's not going to give you a chance to practice that move.

Starting point is 02:43:07 But you have to practice with resistance. So where does drilling comes on that? Most of people, you know, they flow drill and everything, I think, whatever you do, you condition in your body to do something. You repeat the same move over and over again, your body's condition into apply that movement or the technique. Drilling is not realistic because the other person is not resisting. The flow movement or whatever. After you go beyond, when you already know the mechanics, the drilling with no resistance is not going to teach you anything because you will never

Starting point is 02:43:45 know if how to apply the movement with resistance. So it's pointless to carry on drilling after you learn the mechanics. See, but you're making it sound easy to learn the mechanics. I would argue. You can drill as many time. I'm not limiting how much you drill. You drill as long as you had to. I mean, it doesn't matter how long. The benefit of drilling, I'm just playing devil's advocate with you, the benefit of drilling is that you can more efficiently get a higher number of reps in. So what are you going to gain with those reps?

Starting point is 02:44:23 Understanding the mechanics of the movement. And what I would like to argue is you don't necessarily need resistance to deeply understand the mechanics of something. No, I don't know. There's some moves. Like I bet you, you could drill your way to an incredible mount. Mounds is a good example of that. You don't really need a res,

Starting point is 02:44:46 but I can imagine a world in which the resisting opponent is not essential for developing some of the very fine details of the mechanics. Which one? I don't know any. What? You say mount. Yes. What, what you're going to achieve by resist, by drilling with no resistance after you learn the mechanics. Emile. What I'm trying to tell you, the learning of the mechanics isn't a thing where you get

Starting point is 02:45:12 a certificate and you're done. You're going to learn the fine details of the way you redistribute your weight. You're going to learn how to move your, I don't understand. But inside that body, everything you do is a slow process and timing. You have to understand moving. It's the guy who's resisting. Like he's not, I'm not going to grab you and apply the movement. I need to grab you and feel when is the right time to do. Like that, that, he only comes when you're with movement.

Starting point is 02:45:42 If you're not fully resistant, how would I know? You couldn't infer through it. It's like a... With no movement, with no resistance. Like, there's some resistance. Okay, I'm a luck. Let's see, I'm a luck. You okay?

Starting point is 02:45:56 Okay, let's say you've been drilling for a week. Yeah. Five hours a day. You should be an expert with the mechanics. But now, how you going to carry on really? With no resistance? No. You have to be. Yes. After that week, drilling five hours a day, the analog used to have no clue how to apply the analog against a resistance opponent. No clue zero. Yeah. So you don't know the movement, you know the mechanic which is

Starting point is 02:46:29 You know it's like how long you have to drill and how that doesn't matter It's it the very various of the person you can do for a month after that month is over You should understand how the mechanic works You still have no clue how to apply the movement against a resistant opponent You will never ever know how until you apply with a fully resistant opponent. That's the only way to know, to really learn the movement. Yes. Well put, but the question is, can you have a small percentage of time when you go against the resisting opponent, to get the wisdom and the insight of what it takes to perform that movement, and you spend the large percentage of other time just

Starting point is 02:47:05 practicing the mechanics of it. So like, do you need to, as you get better and better at technique to basically drift the way completely from drilling and more into the sparring? I'd like to, I just, you like drilling. No, I don't like drilling. I see, well, yes, I like drilling, I would say, but I just see it like Drillin? No, I don't like Drillin. I see, well, yes, I like Drillin, I would say. But I just see it always bother me in the Jiu-Jitsu community, how a few people really saw the value of Drillin.

Starting point is 02:47:32 I see no wrestling, especially in the Russian style of wrestling, like the value of Drillin. I don't necessarily mean that it's like a dead body or like a dummy or something like that, but just getting the reps in, really focusing on the high amount of reps, I agree in wrestling and judo. I agree the drill in is very important, initial drill a thousand times each move. Yeah, judo is a really big one for that. It is because it's the movement, the timing, you know, it's the precision of the movement. It has to be perfectly because it's one movement. Then you learn about the timing, you know, is the precision of the movement. It has to be perfectly because it's one movement.

Starting point is 02:48:07 Then you learn about the timing of the movement when you're fighting, but during fighting, you only need to know the time because your body movement is exactly the same when you drill. That's really well put. Yeah. The mechanics is much more important there. Yeah, but it's completely different for Jiu Jitsu because let's say from Jiu Jitsu, like the arm lock, for example, we use that as an example. Let's see from the closed guard.

Starting point is 02:48:30 Even my closed guard, before I go for the armlock, I need to have set a grip. Let's see, I have your call in your arm, right? And then, when you're drilling, I'm going to grab your arm, I'm going to grab your collar, and I'm going to drill my body until I can't apply the arm lock and finish. I can do that a thousand times. Now we're fighting, we start with the grip. The moment that I initiate the arm lock attack, you will defend the arm lock, it will not work.

Starting point is 02:48:55 There's not the one movement that will get me to attack the arm. There's a combination of other things that I need to do. I need to feel about your weight. I need to get you close to it. There's so many other things involved that I need to feel that only comes with life, with the fully resistant opponent. Yeah, so pretty quickly it has to be live. Yeah. And then it comes how you practice, how you train. You're starting on that position and just saying, let's go.

Starting point is 02:49:30 And the moment that we disengage from that position, we go back, that's when you really learn. Because everything that you do wrong, you're going to go back there and you're going to try again, try again, try again. And the repetition, you will teach you, have a feeling of timing, when to go, if there's, you know, there's all the combinations, which you always has to go with it. By the way, for the internet,

Starting point is 02:49:56 that's currently yelling at me for arguing with Haji Grasey by drilling, that's called, you know, playing devil's advocate to strengthen to explore ideas. I'm not actually arguing. Okay I forgot to ask you If you had to fight against the bear line gorilla or anaconda to the death Which one would you choose and Would you be able to actually to win against any of them?

Starting point is 02:50:23 well beer I'll lie on I'll be a lion. A tiger? A tiger? A raconda. Oh, a gorilla too, a gorilla. You can go gorilla. I'll probably choose the anaconda. Let's see.

Starting point is 02:50:40 I mean, you're not allowed to run away though. So you're in a cage. Do you have to kill? Still the Anaconda. I think I have no chance against any other one. I have a tiny little, I guess, the Anaconda. Just wait it out. You don't think it's possible to be, I just,

Starting point is 02:51:08 it feels like technique can do something against these animals, but they have so much strength, so much aggression. You know, the real naked choke translating to Portuguese is cute the lion. So everything's always a kid. I always thought that maybe forget behind a lion, the real naked choke, which in Portuguese,

Starting point is 02:51:32 he says, Mattaleon. So Mattaleon is Q the Lion. So I always thought that that's the only way to kill a lion or to find an against a lion, go behind and put the real naked choke. I think you put him to sleep or the name Matalion. Yeah. He's like, kill the lion. Yeah. Someone came up with the name. Why? Somebody must have maybe someone. He's going to fight with the lion. Choked him up. There you go. There you go. I honestly do you think or so actually yeah, you you understand controlling positions.

Starting point is 02:52:03 I honestly do you think or so actually yeah, you understand controlling positions. Do you think like animal like a gorilla or lion will shake you off? If you had back full, you locked in. Well, I'll say the one that I'll have the biggest chance of staying there is the lion because you just see their body. You're smaller than a tiger. I guess I think tiger is a bigger. Yes. So, so do you think they can shake you off though?

Starting point is 02:52:22 I think Tiger is a bigger. Yes. So do you think they can shake you off though? I think I will have a bigger chance of staying against a lion's back than any other animal. Still not answering the question. Do you think you have a chance? If I start on the back, I start full locked in, full control. So let's say it's a small enough lion you can actually have a full. I will guess so.

Starting point is 02:52:43 I mean, I would like to believe so okay well like just like you said somebody must have been able to do it throughout your journey in jiu-jitsu have there been low points I guess there have been points where you really doubted yourself no I'm not really doubted myself there's low points in defeats that those are the low points when I lost how did you deal in defeats, those are the low points. When I lost, how did you deal with defeats? I just went back to the gym next week and say I need to get better. Every time I lost, I'm like, I need to get better

Starting point is 02:53:14 because I need to choke them out. I need to submit them because, you know, we in my points, it's, as a black belt, I have very, very little lost. I'll say I mean I don't like to sound like a crime baby but I'll say most most of those lost was very very controversial. Yeah, it was not a dominant clear performance. It has about referees and points and so on. Everything knows since it was very young. I always fought against my opponent in the referee, like it's, if there was ever in my whole life, since I was a kid, there was ever a doubt, it always goes to my opponent, always, always, that

Starting point is 02:53:56 was just something that I had to deal with my whole life. What's the motivation behind what led to the fact that you win most of your matches by submission or dominance? Like are you chasing? Because that's the only way to prove you better. And I'm never, I never fought to win tournaments. There was never my goal. There was the consequence of me trying to be the best. Like I don't care how many titles I have, I care about, I need to beat all my opponents. And not win, because win is not enough. I have to submit them. That's the only way to prove on the best, to submit them. If I win by advantage or a point, that means I was better than them that day,

Starting point is 02:54:40 that does not mean I'm better than them. If there's a whole thing at the top, if I take you down, pass your guard, mount and submit you, there's zero questions, what's the best? Like there's nothing you can say about it. If I foot sweep you, put your butt on the floor again and the advantage, with Karen fighting in a win means nothing. Not even means I'm better than you. We can't earn a fight and earn a win. Means nothing. Not even means I'm better than you. And if that happened, I would hurt you.

Starting point is 02:55:11 For me, it's not enough. I wouldn't be happy. What advice would you give to young folks who look at you, who are able to accomplish from a place where you're not very good to becoming the best in the world that a thing. What advice would you give them to have a journey like that, have a journey where they could be successful in their career and their life to to such a high level?

Starting point is 02:55:38 The termination is the most important thing. You need to know why you're going together. So you need to have a goal, which whatever that goal is, like you need to set the goal for yourself, so you know where you want to go. And to have the determination to get there and be sure that you will fail many times, like you cannot let your failures bring you down because you will fail many times. Everybody does. So you said you didn't look to external sources of belief.

Starting point is 02:56:17 You just believed in yourself. Is there something to that where you have to try to like be your own source of belief, flame the fire within yourself. Was that something difficult to do? Like, um, but that was just very natural for me. I said, you know, you can surround yourself with great people. That is extremely important. Don't surround yourself with great people. That is extremely important.

Starting point is 02:56:47 Don't surround yourself with failures, because they're not going to push you to. They don't know what it is, how to get there. I mean, everybody knows, but when you surround yourself with winners, you know, you know what, You took them to get there. You used them as an example. Yeah, there's a certain kind of aura to people that just achieve great things and being around them.

Starting point is 02:57:14 But it's still hard to find people that, especially at that early stage, in the any area. Yeah, any area. That's right. Yeah, greatness has a certain, I think it's almost humbling just to see, okay, any human, at least that's the lesson I learned, almost any human can do, can be great. I mean, one, I've used Muhammad Ali as a great example. Look at his belief. Look at how much he believed himself before he was Muhammad Ali.

Starting point is 02:57:42 Look at the determination he had, the way, the confidence he had fighting, even on his loss. They never changed him. No, when he fought, for him, George Forman, I'm not one person in the world, so he was going to win that fight by himself. He never doubt himself. Everybody else did. He won. Over all odds against. So, it's, I mean, you, when you look at people like that, you can, you don't have to be a boxer to try to, you know, follow his example. But see, those are like epic, giant battles, but I feel like you fight the same kind of battle when you're young and your parents tell you that,

Starting point is 02:58:27 you know, just with their whole energy that this is silly, don't be silly, don't be silly, they chase. It's harder. It is harder. But as a kid, it's harder to deal with that because I mean, to go against, I do it's special parents telling you otherwise,

Starting point is 02:58:43 like they're the amount of strength you need. It's gigantic. I don't even know how much strength you need because that was not my case. So I can understand what you have to go through with the force of your parents telling you, you know, otherwise. But it's how much you want. It will dictate how far you're going to go, where you're going to go. So if you can break through that, you'll get nowhere. It's that simple. And actually, one of the really nice things the Internet does that I would give advice to young people is that you can find, even if your parents are not a source of that, your teachers, your community, you can find people on the internet will believe in you.

Starting point is 02:59:27 Yeah. It's kind of cool. It's kind of cool how the internet opens the possibility of like a community of like 10, 11 year olds, like building shit. And I see this all the time, engineering, and they, I mean, they're fuel by belief. They want to, they want to be like, they want to create the next trillion dollar company. Right? There's a fire in their eyes. And not for the money, obviously, but to do something with the impactful. And I think that fire is extinguished off them by teachers and parents.

Starting point is 03:00:01 Because I think the logic that parents have and teachers, they look at a kid and they don't, on the surface level, they don't see greatness, right? They just see kind of mediocrity. And so to them, it's like, no, right, the world is more complicated than that. In order to get great, you have to... They somehow always try to be reasonable with you and in so doing extinguish the flame. I think most people are afraid to even try. So you can call them cowards for not trying because you are a coward for not trying

Starting point is 03:00:40 not putting us here for risk. So I would say a big part of society, I can't wait for never trying, never pursuing what they really want. So there is a way to pressure everyone, most people, a lot of people will say around you, that because they were afraid to try, they don't incentivize people to do so because they want everybody to be like them, because imagining if everybody around you suddenly are not afraid and everyone is trying and you look yourself in the mirror and say, I was too scared, I've never tried. So you feel really bad about yourself. So it's easier to have people around you

Starting point is 03:01:29 that think exactly like you then otherwise. So they reflect a lot on the kids. It's a site almost like pressing down to be like everybody else, to have a normal life, normal job. It's, you know, don't take risk because you can't lose it all. I mean, that's the worst thing you can tell everybody. Take all the risks, lose it all a few times. That's how you're going to build things.

Starting point is 03:01:55 Especially when you're young. Yes, you can recover much more. Exactly. What's the point of not trying? You should try. And you will lose everything. It doesn't matter. What it matters to lose everything? It does matter. You will teach you, you can't be resilient. Try harder. Go after. You know, don't live a normal life because otherwise you, what

Starting point is 03:02:21 we're here for. Take big rest, take a lot of them fail and fail and fail and fail. Say you are a thousand times. Until you succeed. And then you're gonna be the most proud of yourself. Like, there's, there's, there's, there's gonna be priceless. It's, that, then we'll change the world. It is true that most people are not necessarily cowards

Starting point is 03:02:44 but have cowardards in them. It's most people just afraid to try, you know. And a lot of it comes from a place of love because, you know, if you try and you fail, you get hurt. He hurts. I mean, it's not. It's not a pleasant thing to fail. I mean, if you're terrible to think, you know, when I lost any tournament was a good thing. You know, when

Starting point is 03:03:09 I was getting beat up, but the gym over and over again was a good thing when I was getting there and got smashed by all the good guys. I think I liked it. Well, I hate it. But it's my resilience that, you know, make me carry on until I succeed. I think I like to get tapped. my resilience that make me carry on until I succeed. I think I like to get tapped. I'm the most compared to one of the most compared the person you know. I hate to lose. But I accept.

Starting point is 03:03:33 I mean, I just need to get better. Every single time I lost in the championship, I hate. I've never screamed. No one never saw me screaming. Shout in there, I go robbed. I've shoot a one, the referee, the referee, the referee, you know, screwed me over. I mean, it's okay. It happened, she happens.

Starting point is 03:03:56 I need to get better, because I don't want to be in that position ever again. So when I fight, if I'm better, if I tapped him, there's no question. I don't need to wait for the referee to decide that there's points on all points. If, you know, his interpretation, that made me better. Because I was even more determined to be better. In my mind, I have to tap everybody else. Winning is not enough. It's just objectively speaking. What you learn

Starting point is 03:04:27 the most from is really wanting to succeed and then failing. And doing that often. That's the reality from a parent, from a teacher perspective, from anybody, from people you love. If they really want to do something, help them do that thing. If you think they're going to fail good, help them do that faster so they fail faster. Of course they're going to learn. The only way to succeed is failing. There is no other way. That's what people have to understand.

Starting point is 03:04:57 Without failing, there is no success. Since you've gotten a little softer, a little more emotionally open, what's the role of love in the human condition, hydrogracy? Probably the most important thing. That's the basic of everything, right? I mean love brings the best of us. It's if we had more love and compassion from the other person, I think we will be more evolved species. The world will be much better placed than it is now. Did France family help you along the way? Yeah, a lot. I always had

Starting point is 03:05:34 a lot of love and help from many people. That's why I succeed. I've never got here by myself. I had a lot of people who lost me, believed in me, and helped me get to be here today. Well, I'm glad they did. I'm glad you're here today. I'm a huge fan. It was an honor to meet you. It was an honor to hang out with you and Vegas to hang out with you again today. I just been a huge fan for a long time. I'm very pleasure, man. Thank you for everything you're doing. Thank you for this conversation. It was awesome. Thank you very much.

Starting point is 03:06:05 Thanks for listening to this conversation with Haji Gracie to support this podcast Please check out our sponsors in the description and now let me leave you some words from Haji Gracie himself Jiu-jitsu is simple. You just have to do it right Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time. you

Lex Fridman Podcast - #343 – Roger Gracie: Greatest Jiu Jitsu Competitor of All Time

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