Lex Fridman Podcast - #406 – Teddy Atlas: Mike Tyson, Cus D’Amato, Boxing, Loyalty, Fear & Greatness

Episode Date: December 24, 2023

Teddy Atlas is boxing trainer to 18 world champions, ESPN boxing commentator, and host of podcast THE FIGHT with Teddy Atlas. Please support this podcast by checking out our sponsors: - Notion: https://notion.com/lex - Babbel: https://babbel.com/lexpod and use code Lexpod to get 55% off - ExpressVPN: https://expressvpn.com/lexpod to get 3 months free - InsideTracker: https://insidetracker.com/lex to get 20% off Transcript: https://lexfridman.com/teddy-atlas-transcript EPISODE LINKS: Teddy's Twitter: https://twitter.com/TeddyAtlasReal Teddy's Instagram: https://instagram.com/teddy_atlas Teddy's Website: https://teddyatlas.com/ Atlas: From the Streets to the Ring (book): https://amzn.to/48uIQBj Teddy's Podcast: https://youtube.com/THEFIGHTwithTeddyAtlas Dr. Theodore Atlas Foundation: http://dratlasfoundation.com/ PODCAST INFO: Podcast website: https://lexfridman.com/podcast Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/2lwqZIr Spotify: https://spoti.fi/2nEwCF8 RSS: https://lexfridman.com/feed/podcast/ YouTube Full Episodes: https://youtube.com/lexfridman YouTube Clips: https://youtube.com/lexclips SUPPORT & CONNECT: - Check out the sponsors above, it's the best way to support this podcast - Support on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/lexfridman - Twitter: https://twitter.com/lexfridman - Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lexfridman - LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lexfridman - Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/lexfridman - Medium: https://medium.com/@lexfridman OUTLINE: Here's the timestamps for the episode. On some podcast players you should be able to click the timestamp to jump to that time. (00:00) - Introduction (09:47) - Lessons from father (19:53) - Scar story (40:31) - Cus D'Amato (50:43) - Mike Tyson (2:08:39) - Forgiveness

The following is a conversation with Teddy Atlas, a legendary and at times controversial boxing trainer and commentator. When I was going to this conversation with Teddy, I was ready to talk boxing. Styles, matches, techniques, tactics, and his analysis of individual fighters like Mike Tyson, Maka Moore, Glitchko's, Usik, Vivekan, Omanjangkotropoji, Canelo Muhammad Ali, Shagre Leonard, Hagler Durran,kin, o manjangkotropoji, canelo mahamadalisha, gray lennard, haggler duran, floyd, and on and on, like I said, I came ready to talk boxing, but I stayed for something even bigger.

The Shakespearean human story of Teddy Atlas, customado, and Mike Tyson. It's a story about loyalty, betrayal, fear, and greatness. It's a story where nobody is perfect and everybody is human. To summarize, in the early 80s, young trainer Teddy Atlas worked with his mentor, Customato, in training the young boxing prodigé, now a boxing legend, Mike Tyson. Mike was a troubled youth, arrested over 40 times, and at age 15 he was sexually inappropriate with Teddy's 11-year-old niece. In response to this, Teddy put a 38-calibur handgun to Tyson's ear and told him to never touch his family again, or he would kill him if he did. For this custom model kicked Eddie out. Why?

Well that's complicated. In part I think to help minimize the chance of Mike Tyson, who, because legally adopted, would be taken away by the state. And with him, the dream of developing one of the greatest boxers of all time. Of course, that summary doesn't capture the full complexity of human nature and human drama involved here. For that, you have to listen to this conversation. The thing said and the things left unsaid. The pain in Teddy's voice, the contradictions of love and anger that permeates his stories and his philosophy on life.

Like I said, I came to talk about boxing and stayed to talk about life. This conversation will stay with me for a long time. The people close to you, the people you trust, the people you love are everything. And if they betray you and break your heart, forgive them, forgive yourself and try again. Happy holidays, everyone. I love you all. And now a quick few second mention of each sponsor,

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slash Lex. This is Alex Freeman podcast. Disappointed. Please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here's Teddy Atlas. You wrote in the book that your father had a big influence on your life. What lessons have you learned about life for your father? When you asked that question, you know, I remember because of the motto when I was with him up in Gadskiv all those years, he used to say to me, that he, you learn through us Moses. I believed it's true to that.

If I know what us Moses is, and I, but it sounds good. Yeah, yeah. But I learned through us Moses were my father. He wasn't a big talker. He was, you know, he was a doer. And I, when you're around someone who lives a certain kind of life and those certain things, it penetrates. He was a doctor. He was, I'm going to sound like an idiot right now because I'm being a son. But he was the greatest diagnostic doctor. I mean, if I say I have it, no, what's that mean? Yeah.

You know what I mean? Are you a doctor? You know what I mean? Like, what does that mean? But other people have told me this. Yeah. Like, just legend every story. He would do house calls and help people.

And like you said, a lot of people have spoken about the impact he's had in their life. He built two house posts. And he built two house posts before the Verizado Bridge in New York, connecting Brooklyn to Staten Island. And he built it so people could get proper hospital care that couldn't afford it. Period. And um, everybody looked at him as eccentric. Yeah. Nice. Yeah. Because he, he, he would literally sneak patients, not sneak them in. He was knocked out.

He could do what he wanted to accept. But he would bring patients in without administering, putting through administration. So there was no charge because they didn't have anything. There was street people. I remember being, my only way to be with my father was to go on house calls or to go to the door. There's no, you know, and so I went on house calls with him. And he did house calls by the way, too.

He was 80 and three dollars. I mean, it was better than like McDonald's, you know what I mean? I mean, the deal. You three dollars and you got medicine, you got everything. And but he used to write around the holidays, it was just certain things that I didn't understand, but I understood later where we would just drive certain areas and he just oversaw and oversaw.

He would pick up these homes and, you know, I'm up on, I'm 10 years old. Yeah, you know, move over and move over, you know, and it's just you, him and a homeless guy. A couple, a couple. Yeah, whatever he could fit in, three, four, you know, whatever it was. That's a big heart. And then he took him to the hospital, dropped him. So, you know, I would ask questions, I have to, it was all over with, I'd say that,

that's sick. He goes, well, not, not in a way, whether you put them in the hospital. So he said, yeah, and he tried to explain things to me, you know, he in a way, wasn't you putting them in the hospital? So he said, yeah, and he tried to explain things to me. You know, he would try, he didn't talk much unless you ask him. So that kind of works. And you know, don't talk less on the issues. I'm okay. And he, he, he explained to me that he said, um, I said, well, why you putting them in the hospital?

Then, you know, and of course the sickness was they were alcoholics, but um, why you put him? He's, it wasn't an alcohol rehab, you know, so why you put him and it wasn't for the purpose to dry out. He wasn't trying to cure. Yeah. Let's put that for before we, we are annoying him for sanehood, you know, like by Teddy Atlas. So I, I was like, we, we finally get to the point. Why you put them in there? Yeah. Oh, because it's the holidays. Why? Why you put them in there? Well, the holidays, you know, are good for certain people and bad fathers. And, um,

and it was always before the holidays, it was before Christmas or whatever. And, and, um, and it was always before the holidays, it was before Christmas or whatever. And, and, um, New Year's whatever. And so I said, why? And he said, because they remind people, certain people of what they don't have. That you, other people, uh, enjoy the holidays because of what they have, family, you know, whatever. And if we mind some, the mind is that. That's pretty profound. Yeah, and then, I don't know the number,

because he didn't use the word suicide, but I got it, like he basically, I forget how he said it, but like, I just got it. I don't know how I got his nose, I don't know. But I just got it like, so they don't hurt themselves. That's what came across every way. I don't think how I got a husband. I don't know. But I just got like so they don't hurt themselves. Yeah, that's what came I can every way. I don't think you ever articulate it. I've ever verbalized that but yeah, they don't hurt themselves so and

Well, how does that work? Well, it just basically they're gonna be around people that are gonna be alone They're gonna be around people. They're gonna get fed they can be warm, right? And it's going to be for three days, two, three days, whatever. And it's basically, it's a bridge. So the funny thing is, a 10-year-old, I wanted to, I want to be connected to him. So I've enlisted myself in a job when he used to drop them off. He would take them and get them in, right? And then the thing that I know again, he didn't say none, but you noticed things. And if you care enough, you don't know there's nothing if you don't care. But if you care if it's important, you notice.

And this guy was important to me. I just was, I didn't know what he here I was. No clue. I just was I didn't know what a hero was. No clue. I loved Mickey Manel. I loved Willie Mays. I loved I loved Muhammad Ali. I never ever connected with my mind as heroes. Never. My father. I didn't connect it that way but he looking back now. He was he was my first connection to a hero. The two of you ever talk about how much you love each other. So what love, one thing that was not allowed. The greatest memory I have, my father shown me love was we were down in Florida at an

airport and, and we were, I was born in Miami, don't ask where I was person through. And the rest of my family is born in New York, stand out. And so I was supposed to go back right? And I wanted to stay with my mother for whatever reason. And so he, you know, he of course, conceded to it. And he's, he's okay, you know, whatever. And very quiet, very, and there's a man who never showed emotion to anyone. I mean, for the most feel, well, all of a sudden, he just turned and kissed me on the forehead and left. And I was, I was like, that's different. Yeah. You still remember that? Yeah. like, that's different. You still remember that?

Yeah, like that's weird. You lost them 30 years ago. How did that change you? It made me realize that some of the deals I used to make for God, woman realistic. When I was a kid deals I used to make for God were unrealistic. When I was a kid I used to make deals for God. Let me die before my father. And then you know you get older and you have kids, you're breast.

Why did you make that deal? You know what I mean? Thank, thank you for not taking me up to the limit. Yeah, thanks. Yeah. You know? Yeah, you miss them? I miss them in moments when I'd like to know what to do. And you know, I remember when I was driving for the one in the house calls, he didn't listen to music.

He was a guy, he read books to his, when he got older, he read books to blood vessels with broken his eyes. He only read nonfiction books, science, sea love science, wars, generals. I mean, I cheated on a couple of book reports because I didn't do the reading of the book that I before I had a freaking book report to put in that. I got a book report to do on the War of Style and Grant. Really? The War of Style and Grant. And who the freak could tell you where you get an A? I got an A. I just wrote what he told me.

He told me generals, he told me times, he told me strategy, he told me about the winter that came and destroyed the Germans. And the Soviets were tougher than the Germans. And the Germans picked on the wrong opponent. I was already in the box in business. I didn't even know it. I didn't even know it. Matchmaking, very important.

They mismatched. They made a mistake with the picking of the opponent. And so when we would be driving in the car, my father would be in a trance. And dad, he wasn't ignoring me at all. He was just with his thoughts. He was wherever. He wasn't even here in the radio normal.

I was wondering where he was. I did. So I asked someone. And just so we're driving. I did, so I asked someone. And just some were driving and I said, I want to know. So I said, what do you think when you're basically in this place that I know you're somewhere? What are you, what are you, where are you? What are you seeing? I actually said, what do you see?

And he said to me, I see what could be. I see what could be. And I'm like, oh, what? I got to ask you, when did you discover boxing? When did you first fall in love with boxing? When it saved me. How did it save you? I was a stupid violent kid.

That was angry. Not exactly no more. I was angry. I'd fit in real good in today's society because there's a lot of angry kids out there. I don't think they know why they're angry. I was just out there getting fights and I got this stupid thing from that. Can you tell the story of how you got there? I was just running around doing stupid things, bad things.

I heard people, some people physically, but I heard my family. That's BS. You only hurt yourself. That's a good way of, you know, alibi in it. You know, but at some point the truth usually finds its way. I like it to look like I was just hurt myself, or was it? Obviously. So, I was just out on the streets with kids that didn't grow up in a neighborhood I grew up I grew up in a neighborhood where a father was a doctor and I walked down the street the funny thing was down down the hill was a very tough neighborhood called Stapleton and

Most of the people down there on the corners We should they could get up the hill and I wish I could get down the hill so I went down the hill and I hung out with all these friends that became lifelong friends. And I gravitated to that because I figured out later a little bit but you know, I wanted a family. We were destroying a family.

We were, you know, my father was a doctor. He didn't have time for nothing but being a doctor, you know, I think when you greatest something, you sacrifice something too, you know, when you really greatest something, so great that maybe God made you great and you're too great for your own good. And, and I don't know, it took me to these stupid, dangerous places, dangerous for me, but dangerous for other people too, because I got to the point where I was doing robbies on the street,

I was, I was fighting everybody. And, and you know what, the most dangerous part about it was, and I came to this realization on my own, all by myself, I figured out, um, I was really as dangerous, you know, these kids from the project, someone that got nothing. First of all, I learned you don't have to be poor or be poor. You don't have to be deprived of certain things to be deprived. And, or because you at least think you're deprived. And I was born in a way that I didn't have the only thing I wanted to have. Yeah, yeah. So here I am where I'm not that doing these things.

And what made me more, I was more dangerous than some of these psychopaths. Well, I was the psychopath too. I guess the way it was behaving. But some of these psychopaths that really had nothing, you know, really would, you know, they obviously would kill you. I was dangerous in almost the same way, but for a different reason.

I know it's ridiculous what I'm about to tell you, but I figured it out because I felt it. I thought I was on a righteous path. I thought I had a right because it was going to get me my father back. Why? Why? I mean, you know, your scientists, you couldn't figure this one out because all the people that had them were injured people, fractured people, screwed up people in some ways, but hurt damaged people. So if I get damaged, I get them. So I was on a crusade, really a righteous crusade where I thought it was okay. I had permission. I had permission to do these

terrible things quite frankly and to fight everyone and do it. And then it came almost to a crash. Don't know all that. You know, winding up in rake his island like an idiot. Not understanding the damage I did to this poor man that, you know, he, um, he was a great doctor and he's got to see his son and hear about, you know what I mean? Like, God, I was out on that day, you know, with, with the guys that I grew up with now, you know, the guys from the projects, from the, as I described, and I was one of them who he's dead now. So I was with him and we were, we were in a neighborhood, the neighborhood we grow up, that I hung out and he grew up in Billy. He came from the project and we got into a thing where we cut somebody close off, we cut

them off, you know, jumped out to fight. And you know, it turned out there's like five or six of them and two of us. And you know, we fought, you know, right on the side right there. Only about a block from where I just hang out and Maybe a block and a half and right in front of like a Spanish bodega and It really does happen in slow motion. I actually saw the guy was fighting the guys that that I had to fight and then all the sudden I was able to get one guy out of the way a little bit and I really I noticed the guy going to his pocket. And I knew why he was going to his pocket, you know.

And when he came out of his pocket, I knew what it was right away. It was weird because in the neighborhood, guys used to hang out. They went to this, you know, they get into farts, like right on the streets. And they went to that time, they went to this cheap knife, but it was, they thought it was, we thought it was cool. It was a double seven. And a cool thing, whatever, was that you could flick it, you could learn,

and I learned how to flick, you know, but I never carried a knife, but when my friends would have it, I would just, you learn how to flick it open,, but I never carried a knife But but when my friends would have it and I would just you learn how you could flick it open not a switch plate, but flick it with your wrist and I was like Here I am in the middle of the freaking fight and all of a sudden. Oh, it's a double seven, you know and and so I'm like I you gotta make a decision, you know and I

You gotta make a decision, you know. And I got a split, I can either not do nothing which wasn't, didn't seem like a great, you know, a great option. I couldn't run away. Why not? Because you got to live with yourself afterwards. And that's more difficult to live with than whatever it is that's second because that don't go away. You couldn't live with yourself running away.

It just don't go away. That thing, none of the do is being brave. Yeah. And none of the do is being brave. Really. It's got to do with just common sense in life. That for me, whatever you're dealing with, it's done. Like, like, okay, deal with it. Go to bed, whatever. But you do that, you know, that other thing, you can't.

That never ends. This thing ends. Memory of you being a little bit sayawored in that moment that never ends. The only thing I had at that point in my life in my stupid mind was a reputation that I would do, stand up to certain things. That was like, and that for me was worth something, whatever, because I didn't feel any worth to anything else. That was the only thing I didn't feel any worth to anything else. That was the only thing I found a connection of worth to. So did you ground?

So I say, no, I made a decision. Yes. I still might grab, but I actually, things do slow down. They do. And I actually said, it's a double seven. He's got a flick it, you know, I didn't say, but he's got a flick it. I got a split second, either, like I said, either I do nothing, whatever,

or I get to him before he gets it flick. I went to get to him before he got flick. And I just as I got close to it, I did him a favor. I walked right into a counter punch because I cooperated with him. I went right to him. And just as I said, he, he, he, he practiced more than I did with the double seven, apparently, because he was like, well, well, won't, won't, won't. And, and, and anyway, what did you think? What did you think that happened?

That was all slow motion. Did you think it might die? Yeah, well, not immediately took me a minute. I'm a slow learner. I put my hand up. Why wouldn't you? I guess so. And it went into my face.

Yeah. And that was it. It was gooey. It was warm and gooey. And I was like, I don't know what this means, but I don't want to know. But I think I know. And, um, do you think about your dad? No, you know what I thought about him was, you don't know who anyone is into the test and I learned that. Coach used to tell me, but I learned it. He said, you remember one time, because, for the obvious, it was 17, 18 year old kid up

there and you know, thought it was whatever I thought I was a 17 to 18 year old kid up there and thought I was whatever I thought I was. And he said, you got my friends? And I said, yeah, because I was on the street hanging out with 100 kids at night, sometimes on the street corner. So I was like, I don't know, too many people that hung out with 100 kids on the street, on the corner on a Friday Saturday night. And I was like, yeah, I got my friends. He goes, really? Really? He said, how about if I told you you might not have any? Most like

who you don't have any. And he goes, and then he just started to stink. He said, everyone's going to be tested. You, me, everyone, because you don't know about nobody to their test it. He goes, you know nothing. He goes, you know nothing until you know. And just something happens to test if they were really afraid. And then he told me this story about a guy, a guy came to him and he was upset. Who were you upset about? He goes, I'm upset because I, I just, I just lost a friend.

You know, after 20 years of friendship, we're not friends no more. So it goes, looks at him, because, I mean, it's your question. What made you think you have a friend's will? Now the guy gets insulted. The guy's, did you hear me? He goes, I just told you 20 years, I've been friends with this guy, why would you say that to me?

He said, well, I'll say it again. What makes you think he was your friend? He goes, whatever happened in the 20 years, other than chasing girls, because I figured that one out first, chasing girls and drinking together, and whatever else you're doing out on the street, whatever gave you the inclination that it was a friend.

He goes, whatever, when did he risk himself to be a friend? When was it dangerous to be a friend? What was it dangerous to be a friend? What was the friendship tested? When was it uncomfortable to be a friend? And you know what the guy said? You can figure it out, you're a scientist. He said, he said, today, and today came for me. And today, today, today, today, today, today, kept common for me today. And that day, my friend, Billy, had turned out

while I was fighting these whatever, five, six guys, and where was Billy? He was on a roof. He was on a roof. He was on a roof. He was my best friend. And so anyway, they take me to the house for and here's the thing with my father. But one thing Billy did do for me when he got off some roof, thank God, he did. He dragged me he dragged me into this bodega, laid me on a floor and started putting towels. And the towels, I vaguely remember this, they filled up a blood, I mean, completely like drenched, like you put them under a shower. And I heard the bodega on a scream and scream and you know like, you know, whatever. And everyone screaming in this chaos. And I'm like, I don't know, I'm calm. Weird. I'm like real calm.

And I'm just in this place. I'm just in this place, one thing is calm. And I hear Billy, he's screaming, call the ambulance, call the ambulance, and nobody's doing none. Everyone's frozen. I'm starting to understand already. People get frozen in situations. People, the fear, fear, fear, fear, fear, just paralyzes people. And I was going into a fear business. I was learning.

I was getting a learning, early PhD. And he, and all of a sudden genius, Billy genius, really, street kid, he jumps up on a freaking counter, jumps over the counter, grabs the phone, causes 911, says a cop's been shot, and forget about it. It was crazy. All I remember after that, I tell you a couple things I remember lights Being put on to a stretcher Brounced around you know rushed. I felt everyone's anxiety Except mine I had none but I felt everyone's anxiety everyone's fear like it was all around me

It's like oh this is interesting. It's kind of interesting. I know that's stupid But like well, this is interesting. You really have an eye for fear. That's fascinating. You're really studying it. Well, they, I had no choice. I got introduced in a crash course. And they, they put me in ambulance. And this is what I remember to your point. I'm sorry. It took so long to get to it. I am, although I'll probably do it again before this conversation. But I journey, yeah, we get there. If we get there, pops. So I, I hear the cops say, we, we, we might lose them. And I'm like laughing to myself. I'm not laughing because I'm not, again, I'm not John Wayne. John Wayne would have left. But I'm like,

Luz, you guys are stupid. You know, I didn't say that. But I'm like, Luz, my father's the greatest doctor in the freaking world. Yeah. There's not no worry about it. You people, you people all tight and whacked out here with fear. And there's nothing to worry about. Talk to Alice. This is my father. So anyway, so they're they're taking me to the and he said, we don't have time. I hear a couple things I remember. Don't have time. Take them to and they take me to the US public health hospital. Marina hospital was called at the time, but US public health. And it's in Stapleton, so it's close.

Thank God. So they're taking me and I hear the one radio, you know, we're saying this stuff about, we gotta move, we gotta move. And I start talking. And they're telling me, don't talk. But I like to talk a lot, you know? And so, again, fear. There's no fear when a fear has been removed.

It's the only time you're really free in life. And I know that sounds absurd, but really, it is. It's the only time you really free in life. I was when you close a death, when you're devoid of things that normally hold you back, that normally influence you in ways that, that, you know, that are not of the influence that are always positive influence.

Where you're in a pure place, where you're in a pure place, where you're in a purely free place from all inhibitions, from fear, from anxiety, from joy, joy can screw you up. And you're free from all these things. And I'm in this place. Just hold on. In the back of an ambulance, you're free.

Yeah, I'm like, I said, just get me to docked out. And now say, we don't have time. No, no, no, no, no, ambulance, you're free. Yeah, I'm like, I said, just get me to talk to Atlas. And they say, we don't have time. No, no, no, no, no, you don't have to get to talk to Atlas. You have to get him. This was so damn it. This was so, you know what I mean? I finally figured it out, the number, and I'm not getting paid. And then all of a sudden, I'm out.

How many stitches? Well, I think it was 400, 200 inside, 200 outside it, or whatever. A lot. I look after, after, after 50, it, that number doesn't matter, no more. I know whatever's 60, 70, 80, 90, whatever. You know, so I was fortunate, I was fortunate. And of course they, I was fortunate, they told me afterwards that Miss Mike Jogler literally by like like a centimeter I mean whatever and so then I'm then we wouldn't be having this conversation obviously I'm glad you made it. Yeah, I'm kind of glad too and

And it just missed my high which thank God it's fair enough. I have a squat match for me with a patch. I mean I mean, it's enough that I get this freaking thing And I'm and look it goes all the way, you know, I mean, it's you know, it's it's pretty long and I'm I don't know I was out and then somehow I Sensed like they had the curtain closed, you know, and it's amazing how vivid it is. And the curtains closed and I see a shadow. I felt the presence I did and I felt him. He's a powerful guy.

And I felt him and I just see like a shadow, you know, and all of a sudden, the curtain gets pushed back. And I can't really see. It's dark and, you know, out of it, but not completely out of it. And pushes the curtain back, comes in, and his hand, even though it's all bandage, you know, whatever, but his hand surveys And felt safe and I felt it felt warm and safe I was happy and I'm he got there, you know, do you say something? Yeah, yeah Remember I gave you a little bit of introduction to my father. I you know I'm now a little bit, right? What he said about the job, he just said this is what he said. I remember to this day, what he said. Yeah. That bad I do remember. I don't know who six or five people, but just I do remember. Yeah.

He said they did a good job. You can have a scar the rest of your life. And he left. call the recipe a life that he left. Oh man, they did a good job. You mentioned cost, cost a model, legendary trainer, and you also mentioned turned out he really cared about you. In the book you write about a testimony he gave, I was hoping I could read it because it speaks to your character, it speaks to his. It's just powerful. The testimony goes, your honor, I realize you might not know much about me, but I spent my whole life developing young men. As a boxing manager, I trained two world champions, Heavyweight Champion Floyd Patterson and Light Heavyweight Champion Jose Torres.

I've also helped a lot of other young boys straighten out their lives and build character. I know things about Teddy Atlas, this court doesn't know. Things you won't find and has a rest record. This boy has character. He has loyalty. He'll hurt himself before he'll let down a friend. These qualities of rare, and they shouldn't be lost. He's made mistakes, of all made mistakes. But I've come to know this boy, and if we lose him, we'll be losing someone

who could help a lot of people. Please don't take this young boy's future away. It could be someone special. Let's not lose him. Please. Those are powerful words from powerful men. What have you learned about life from Mr. Customado? He gave me a quote and he drilled into my head. I became his guy, you know, he loved me. I loved him. He said to me, Teddy, no matter what a man says, is what he does in the end that he intended to do all along. That's why I learned from Kuz.

The rest of it is BS. And a lot of people say things. You just have to give them a minute to let them show you eventually what they really met by it. I was learned from him that everyone's afraid because this way of saying to another great saying, you'll get kick out of this. Anyone who's in a situation where fear should be prevalent, where fear is actually necessary to survive the situation. Anyone who says that they're not afraid, they're one of two things.

They're either a liar or they should go to a doctor to find out what to fix wrong with them. He was right about that. You know, we live in a taboo society where that word to a certain extent is taboo because it invokes weakness. You know, We are just layers of what we so unlearn since we were kids. We all are products of those layers. I learned that on my own, to some help at the end of the day. You know, fear. People will find their way of avoiding that term.

So they use the word anxiety, they use the word, you know, butterflies, apprehension, you know, many in different, right words. I find all those other words to be cousins of fear. And fear causes a lot of things in life. It causes a lot of problems. And it also solves a lot of problems without it. We couldn't be great. If we are great, and we ever have a chance to be great, or at least to aspire to be great.

How does fear connect the greatness? That's a profound statement. Without fear, we wouldn't be able to be great. You couldn't be great without fear, because fear allows it to be brave. The most important word for me in this whole You know conversation right neighborhood would be selfishness And it allows you to be for a moment less selfish One of the things I learned I guess partly on my own

Everyone thinks my greatest teacher was cussed. He was a great teacher mentor my greatest teacher was my father, the one who never talked. And I realized one of the things to be better towards great is if you can be submit less than we submit. See one of the things that I'm afraid of one of the things I was always quitting And my business. It's kind of not a good thing Every business I think Yours yours is just more clear Yeah, it hurts more In the moment at least yeah in the moment you're right 100%, in the moment, you're right.

100% because something's heard for a long time afterwards. And something like regret. We've got as the worst thing in the world because it's the solitary sense. And man, that's a powerful phrase. Regret is a solitary sentence. So boy, I you're full of good lines. You know, it wasn't easy to accumulate them. It was a little bit hurtful.

But so, it was submit less, because we submit every day. And if we can get to a place where we submit or compromise ourselves less, we'll get to a better place. You know, again, one of the words for me that attaches to things that give you, that wind up hurting you in life and have hurt me in life, one of those bogey men words is the word of convenience. That's the type to everything. People disappoint you not because they want to disappoint you or let you down or betray you

because they want to betray you. They do because it's more convenient to do than the other thing. And all the male ones told me, he said to me, I was trying to rationalize something, I was trying to make someone excuse for something, I was trying to make myself better than I was, I was trying to say it was okay. And he just looked at me and he liked me. And he said, Teddy, they ain't no such thing as being a little pregnant. I was like, yeah, because you're pregnant or you're not pregnant. Either you're real or you're not really, either you're, you know, truthful or you're not truthful. Either you're tough or you're not praying. Either you're real, you're not really, either you're truthful, you're not truthful, either you're tough, or you're not tough, either you're committed or you're

not committed. Either you're in or you're out. That applies to a lot of things, including loyalty. That's quite a statement, but the life-believeability for me is loyalty. It's quite a statement. But the life level of humanity for me is loyalty. It's what goes to the veins of, you know, everything has to have some veins in some form. And the humanity has veins, what runs through the veins of humanity instead of blood to give it a life is loyalty. Without loyalty, without loyalty with dead. We're freaking walk with vessels.

I never understood what a ghost ship was. You know what? I don't know what a ghost ship is. It's people. It's people that empty. They got no loyalty. Therefore they got no humanity.

Therefore they got nothing. Therefore, I freaked them. Freaked them because and you know why they don't have loyalty? Convenience. And you know why? Because it takes, it's hard to be loyal. It's actually hard. I'll be a son of a gun.

You're talking about, yeah, it sounds great. Give it to me. Give it to me. Paint me with it. It's great. Yeah, loyal. Yeah, I'm great. Yeah, this is going, I'm on that team. I'm ready.

Put me in coaching. I'm ready. Okay. Now, you have to, you're going to have to get hurt here. What do we get hurt? It's going to be painful. I mean, to be loyal, you know, you're going to be in danger because the person that you committed

your loyalty to for a reason, because obviously it did something in your life, whatever, whatever. You're actually gonna get hurt to be loyal to them. You're actually gonna hold on a minute. Hold on a minute coach. Hold on. Cool time. Yeah. Let me think about this coach. I might need more practice. I'm not ready for the game. I'm not ready to go in the game yet. Give me a little more practice coach. And it hurts to be loyal. It freaking hurts.

But without loyalty, we're go-ships. We got no strength. We got nothing. We got nothing. We got nothing. We got nothing. I agree with you in a deep fundamental sense, but there's a pain that comes with that. I have to ask you to introspect on this part of your life because of your value for loyalty. As people know, because of your value for loyalty. As people know, you and custom auto trained young Mike Tyson and the interaction there between the three of you led to the

three of you parting ways. Given your value for loyalty, can you tell the full story of what led up to this and maybe The pain you felt From that I guess it was the second time my life I felt betrayed The first time was when I was whatever, young 17, and I got arrested. I was with all these older guys, tough guys, whatever. And supposedly. And the detectives separated us, that's what they do. And you know,

they asked me who did whatever, who's gotten this stat, you know, or that particular of obviously what we did. And you know, it was me. And I said, you sure? You don't want to change that. Because your friends changed it. And these cops, they were nasty, but they were cops. They were the way you're going to wind up with bikers and they're going to be doing this to you. And I won't even say the things because then,

well, I say them, figure it out. But they're trying to get what they're trying to get. And you want to change it. And no. And but I felt very betrayed, you know? And especially when I was standing in the cell, it's right, just looking at the airplanes, leave the Laquady Airport, and then open up his own one. You know, I was making like you're right, you're looking at the airplanes, leave the LaGuardia airport, and then I opened up his own one.

You know, I was making like a deal with God that let me be on one of those planes and let it crash. I'd take a shot. Was party proud that you didn't give up your friends? No, because I didn't understand what proud was. I didn't understand nothing. I just understood that rules are rules, you're just loyal and that's it. I didn't even know. I just understood that rules are rules. You're just loyal and that's it.

I didn't even know there was an option. I didn't think there, I know the cops had you could do this, but there was no option. My father never had an option, but the betrayal, the private betrayal was like, and so when cause, we were partners, me and cause yeah cause was retired this stupid kid goes up there and all of a sudden I start training fighters first I want to gloves because for me and the gloves I want to gloves that

I injury whatever but bottom line is I still want to fight I want to turn pro I want to fight that was the plan turn pro. I want to fight. That was the plan and And Cous had a different plan Cous Cous was like you can and he had his setup a little bit whatever without getting into it Hey, he did me a favor And I like to think he knew he was doing me a favor And you know what I do think he was he was doing himself a little bit one too But but he was doing for the greater cause because he believed in this thing of boxing. He believed that it changed life. He believed that it was worthwhile. He believed that there was a power to it beyond

the left hook. The big picture of boxing. Yeah. He believed in it. Yeah. He believed that to be a champion, you had to be special, you had to be smart, you had to have character, you had to be a better person. And that you couldn't make a champion if you didn't make them a better person first. And that this, you know, this could strengthen people, the sport could strengthen people in those ways. So he was married to it. And he was old and he needed, there was no one in the gym, there's empty and there's a bumper police station, which was crazy.

And he needed an heir to the throne, he needed to pass an answer so on and he saw some and obviously he saw that my career in the box was less important than having me become his heir to the throne and become his trainer, his man, his guy to continue that we could do a lot more for him and for everyone, not just for him, but for everyone. It was more like to keep it going. Like, it couldn't die. It couldn't die. And the cause was afraid that it would die with him. And he committed his whole life to it. He didn't get married because of boxing. So he didn't. So he saw me as, as, you know, the little bit of, you know, the seed to plant for more things to grow before that plant died. And so he,

all the sudden he says, you can't fight. And I have people tell me that I could go somewhere else and fight. And I could. But I couldn't. Right. Because I'd be disloyal. Loyalty is everything. Yeah. So I couldn't leave cause. Yeah. And he kind of knew that. And, and so, you know, I couldn't leave and he said You have an ability to teach he said knowledge means nothing He said see these per canica here per canica the psychopaedias The whole set in in our library. He said you see these. Yeah, I see them All the knowledge of the world, whatever, is in these.

All right. Means nothing if you don't have somebody to convey it to people. Otherwise, it just sits on a bookshelf, it looks good. Because you have the ability to convey knowledge to people, you're a teacher. You were born to be a teacher. You'd lessen yourself by only being a champion fighter

because you don't need to take care of one person. You could take yourself by only being a champion fighter because you don't need to take care of one person. You could take care of all kinds of people and you could do this and you could do that and you could do this. So we go on this venture, took a minute because I didn't believe him at first. But finally, I am to buy it. And I was a teacher. And I start teaching these kids. And there's no one in the German's dad. And all of a sudden, there's 10 kids, 15, 20, 25, 30, 35, 40, 45, cat's go box and club, which was never there. Now it's there. And I'm training fighters. I'm taking down the South Bronx to get experience. One of his former fighters knows Aquarius down the South Bronx. I'm taking down

there to get smokers to get fights when they're ready. I'm wearing out dungarees. I'm getting holes in my dungare. I was fashionable before it was fashionable to have holes in my dungarees. I could have made a lot of money with that because I was on my knees with these little kids nine years old 10 years old eight years old 10 year 12 13 14 All these kids and I'm teaching and I'm building a gym and Custody came once a week because he was semi retired You know, you know, and and he's home and when he would come once a week He knew he couldn't get me money, but he gave me more than money. He gave me praise

would come once a week, he knew he couldn't give me money, but he gave me more than money. He gave me praise. And he said, look what that was just doing. He's creating champions. And I was like, well, yeah, wow, I'm doing good. And then all of a sudden, after four years of that, because I was up there seven years, eight years, eight years, after about three and a half, four years of that, we get a phone call that they get this kid in prison and try on prison from one of the guys

that knew Kostya Matt Berezki. And there's a correction officer named Bobby Stewart who used a box and Kostya helped him out a little bit, a little bit. And they knew we had this gym now that was really starting to become something because we were winning tournaments and everything else. The call was like, we get this kid Mike Tyson, he's 12 years old, he's 190 pounds, and he's a mess. But Bobby still got involved with him, you know, the former fighter, and he's taken a liking to it

and now where he didn't behave at all And he didn't listen to anyone now. He's listening because Bobby's got a carrot and the carrot is hit It's a box and then now he's at the point now Well, we want you to take a look you and Teddy bring them down What would you think when you first saw Mike test? Well, I want to I want to see his birth certificate because he 190 pounds 12 years old and all solid, you know, really, but yeah, just physically, just as a physical specimen. And big guy.

Yeah, and listen, because he was right, I was a teacher. He was right, and he was testing me even that day. He said, what do you think? So I said, well, we ain't going to know nothing in the bag. Who the frick is about that? Because it was right, I was a teacher. He was right. And he was testing me even that day. He said, what do you think? So I said, we ain't gonna know, not in the bag. Who the frickin' is about that? Not the bag down. We gotta put them in.

We gotta know when to put them in that way. That didn't have anyone that way. We gotta test them. Everyone's gotta be tested. And so you gotta put them in responsibly, but let's put them in. Just responsibly, but let's put them in with Bobby Stewart, form of profite ad 14 profiles, small in the Tyson.

He was when he was fighting, he was 175, but still he's 28 years old, Tyson's 12. Come on. And and her work will, right? So we do. We put him in Tyson. He recognized a moment. He understood this was an audition. This was a chance, you know, this was that TV show. Change your life. And he understood that if he passed the audition, he could change possibly changes. Like, it wasn't sure what, how could

he be sure what exactly, but it was better than when he had. And so he was on a dish, so he wanted, he innately understood what we would want to see, for oceaness, toughness, character, desire, you know, and of course ability. Well, we saw the ability, power, speed, but it was, it was unbridledled it was untaught it was it was raw he didn't know really much at all at all but we saw that but he wanted to show more he knew that was enough again and Nate intelligence he had to show desire he had to show toughness and so I was being responsible after two rounds, that's enough. Normally, I don't put a guy into boxing to maybe four months, five months, six months, eight months, ten. It depends what it takes to learn on the floor. Before it's responsible to put

him in a ring to actually take on incoming real live shells instead of blanks. And so normally I wouldn't have men. And I knew after today he wouldn't be in a ring again if I trained them. I would teach him first and then he'd get back in a few months. But for this day, it was the only way, it's kind of like I used to make this announcement

because I loved it. I said, what's training on fighter? What do you, what do you look for training on fighter Teddy? You know, he asked me this ridiculous question just to test me. And I say, it's training on fighter? What do you, what do you look for training on fighter Teddy? You know, he asked me this ridiculous question just to test me. And I say, it's like, go to Macy's with, he loved it. I said, I said, it's like, go to Macy's with no, I'm Christian.

He goes, what do you mean, Macy's with no? You know, customers like, boom, boom, boom. So what do you mean, Macy's with no, you go to Macy's with no, and I got the window where everything you want to see, everything in there, and it looks great. Oh, everything. And yeah, and then what well then you ask what's in the warehouse and they tell you nothing And then cuz says that's it

That's a trainer and I wanted to see what was in the warehouse Because I saw what was in a way she's window. I saw the power. So to speak so He goes to rounds and he gets a bleeding nose. Here's the weird thing. Not weird. Very telling. We knew what we were doing. Not breaking, but we knew what we were doing because he got a bloody nose because he got hit. After that bloody, he never got another bloody nose. You know why he didn't get hit? Because he learned. He was still strong, but he was smart enough. Anyway, he goes two rounds and I saw and I'm being responsible because if he goes more, it's not responsible. I saw what I needed to say. I saw a speed and saw power, so I had let a system

and I saw I didn't believe him. I thought he was lying to me. I'm just telling you, I thought he was lying trying to act tough when he wasn't really feeling tough. It didn't do it, he was lying to me. I'm just telling you. I do it, he was lying, trying to act tough when he wasn't really feeling tough. It didn't matter. Cuts question me on and afterwards. What did you see? And when I said he goes, young master, you know, again, he wasn't paying me money.

So he had to give me something, right? And that was better than, that was currency. Young master, young master, whoa. You know, young master, you know what I mean? Like, I felt like that guy, Kung Fu, you know, like in the movie, like Kung Fu. Grasshopper, wouldn't you read it when you could take this out of my hand, you can leave. And that's powerful. Yeah, it was.

It worked. Because knew how to work me. And he did. And it worked. And so, but you know what, I didn't mind being worked. I kind of knew I was being shuffled a little bit. Well, you're making it sound a little bit negative, but it's also extremely positive. That's a teacher instilling wisdom into you that you carried forward and impacted a lot

of people. Yeah, because you got the job done, but he did it his way. And he did it for a lot of a me read of reasons and but at the end of the day it was all good and I just had to understand that eventually later on but you do the same you do things your way and carry some of him in you some of your father in you yeah that day you know that day was funny because when Kassar what did you see Teddy when him after two rounds I got up with a ring I knew I was gonna train him obviously we were gonna say no and he's still out about four months to serve and we were gonna work it out and when I got up on a ring apron

that's my gym I'm the boss you know people on in a life call me a dictator. You know what I said? Yeah, you're right. I didn't deny people thought you You mean I'm right. Yeah, I'm a dictator. I'm a trainer. I'm the boss. I'm in charge If I you wouldn't be here if I was what the freaking name before if I'm not freaking a charge you idiot Yeah, yeah, they're right Well, what do you think it's a it's a shared responsibility? No, it's my responsibility. That's why you're here. Yeah, I am in charge. You shouldn't be here if you don't understand that. So I get up there and I know that I'm going to be trying to I got to show them who the boss is. You know, I'm being really frank about this. So I get up there and say, that's it. Out.

I'm really frank about this. So I get up there and say, that's it, out. No, no. You know, that's the type. No, let me go. I wanna do another round. I wanna do another one. I said, out. Did you hear what I said?

Because I knew that, you know, he was gonna test me. It's test me. I said, I said, get out. Uh, he got out. But were you impressed with the fact that you wouldn't keep going? Yes, and I recognized what it really was. So, cause they asked me, what was that? You got out. But were you impressed with the fact that you want to keep going enough? Yes. And I recognized what it really was.

So because they asked me, what was that? Because I want to know what the young master saw. So because they said, what was that? I said it was an act. He goes, you saw that? Then he really want to go. I said, no. I said, he really want to go. But he knew that we want want to go. I said no. I said he really want to go. But he knew that we

want him to go. And he made himself ready to go in order to satisfy and that's just as good. And because they're right. It's just as good. All that matters was not not how he got there, but then he got there. That's all that matters. Then he got there. Then he got to the place to act like a fighter, to do what we want him to do, to be ready to persevere, to go beyond the comfort level, to do another round. He didn't want to, damn, I didn't want to,

but he knew we want him to, and he knew in order to pass the test, he had to do it. And he said, you're right. He goes, now it's going to be your job to teach him to make him a fighter that don't get bloody noses, that don't get hit. And we'll get to that place without being coerced to get there, to get to that place on his own. Instead of using the things that he had to use to get there, to get to that place on his own. Instead of using the things that he had to use, to get to that place today, those things are not going to be available.

One day, when you, and listen to this, you talk about a man being prophetic because it was pretty good. You talk about man being on its job, or money, likes, he says, how do you think he finishes the sense he goes? Because someday, because you know, you're going to have to make sure that he learns these things. Because you know, he'll be your first heavyweight champ. What did you just say?

He's 12 years old. Yeah. Yeah. He's been arrested 30 times. He's getting out of jail, out of, you know, juvenile detention, trion. He's a mess. In a lot of ways, there's a lot of things we find out later,

a lot of problems, weaknesses. He goes, and you have, that's part of your job. That'll be part of your job. But he really said that. And then he turned to him and he goes, you want to come live with us, young man? You want to be your fighter? Yes.

And even that, because it took me later, what do you think about that? I said, the way he said yes. The way he said yes. Yes, sir. Yeah. And he said, what do you think about that?

And we're talking. I said, ain't gonna be that polite in a little while down the road. Again, he knew that that's what he felt that he needed to project himself as, to present himself out, to get to where he wanna get to. He goes, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Did you see what Cust was saying in terms of the heavyweight champion of the world? No, again, the easiest answer would be yes. Teddy is just, Teddy Hales, genius. Wow, wow, Teddy is, wow. No, no, no. But again, it was my job. And I just, my job, it was simple, simpler than Cust's.

Cust knew too much. I knew nothing. I just knew, you know, rudiments of boxing, I knew what it took to be a fighter and how to execute it. The steps of executing it. So I took those steps. The rest of it, you get blurred by those other things. I wasn't blurred by those other things. It was just get them into Jim make them mentally stronger, make them face things and teach them how to slip punches and create holes and fill those freaking holes with devastating punches. This is a cause. And what are you going to do?

I'm going to teach them to fill holes and fill them with punches with bad intentions. And that became the moniker. And then Tyson would say that I'm told'm talking punch of a bad intentions. Yes, you are and um, you know How do you make a mentally tougher? So that part of the job the you said the don't get a bloody nose But the part of the job where makes a mentally tougher how you do that most important part of the job to make a face things Make a face where his lines themselves are submitting. When we start this

conversation with submission, submit less, submit less, submit less every day, submit less. Because only come to Jim once in a while. And if I had him spawn, he would come because that was his, that was his, that was the heavyweight. Now he came, you know, put him life in cause, cause that life he was losing a little life, but that made the light bulb bright again. It did. It was great to see it. I felt proud of that. I felt connected to that. And that's why when when it all went bad and cost took the side that don't decide he could take the side of the next heavyweight champion for the world. But he left me, his partner,

the young master. And of the second time I give a trade. And I'm like, for a while, I thought everything because taught me, he said to me, was a liar and wouldn't be any part of it anymore. Until I got a little more mature and I got a little past that where I was able to understand. I was able to understand that just because so many that you perceived as great in every area is you find to be weak in certain areas doesn't mean that they can still be what they want to hear.

It's something that is something that can be understood or forgiven. It's hard, it's hard to get to that place and forgive somebody in that kind of way that I felt betrayed because, because told me the most important thing was loyalty, because told me he loved me because I was wrong, because told people that the reason that he went to court was because I didn't give up anybody, even though man put me in a risk of going to jail for 10 years. And he felt that he admired those traits. And so I assumed that he would show the same traits.

And he took a deal. He took a deal. He took a deal. He signed the papers that those so-called Feds are my sign. He took a deal to have the future everywhere chapters to turn out. And to let me go you know, to let me go to sign the deal to let me take, you know, take the weight. For people who don't know, Mike was in a probab with a young girl and you pulled the gun

on him. I don't know if there is deeper things to say about that situation. But why do you think us made the decision to cut you off from both Mike Tyson and from custom auto? Like to break that when he valued loyalty. I served my purpose. I got him to the way he needed to get food, life back in the gym. If I was in the gym at that particular time, Tyson never would have been in a gym. There would have been no gym to bring him to. When they caught up and made that phone call to bring him to the gym, there would have been no activity.

There would have been no boxing program. There would have been no training. Training them 24-7 away I was, where it caused wasn't capable of doing that at that point in his life. But then again, it's not poor Teddy. I get the better fit of a career. I get the better fit of knowledge. I get the better fit of a life. I get the better fit of learning, of becoming,

hopefully a better person. I get the better fit of being portrayed again. But. Well, that's a hell of a statement right there. I don't know what the benefit of that is. You can learn to forgive weakness. You know, when you realize how, how easy it is to be weak.

And, and when you realize that somebody asked me, how did you get to the point where you could forgive? It's a pretty good question, pretty simple, pretty basic, pretty important, right? And I didn't understand, I understood, but I did understand immediately for me. I said, how can I not forgive somebody? It becomes easier to learn how to forgive when you're still trying to forgive yourself. When you're still in the process of trying to forgive yourself for all your own inherent weaknesses and betrayals of people like my father. In different ways that we forget very easily because it's handy and it's a way of surviving.

It's a lot easier to figure it out, rationalize it to find forgiveness when you realize that you still haven't figured out completely how to forgive yourself. I'm still trying to figure that out. And so that helped me figure out how to forgive costs. Because to figure out how to forgive cause. Because to figure out how to forgive me, I had to understand why I did these things, where the weaknesses came from, where the selfishness came from, where the convenience came from,

that they really existed. But they didn't exist for malice. They existed for me not being prepared to understand that I could be stronger, to want to be stronger. And then I looked at Kus, he wanted to be stronger, but he got to a point in life where he had been strong for a lot of his life. He was strong with me, he was strong with a lot of things in his life. And does everyone deserve a pass in life where he got to a place where everything was in one basket, the basket of boxing. He once told me that he never got married because

it would be, it would be in selfish to a woman. To have gotten married when his whole life was boxing. That he couldn't give to a candy, couldn't give to a heart. He couldn't and then I thought about it. He had no money really. And Jim Jacobs and Bill Cain took care of the bills. So he didn't really need money that way. But the one, what was the payoff for that kind of life, that kind of commitment, that kind of sacrifice? Really, what was the payoff for that kind of life, that kind of commitment, that kind of

sacrifice? Really, what was the payoff? The payoff was to have champions, to have a champion that would keep your name alive. You know, that word legacy, like, what does it mean? Sometimes it's just a word. Sometimes it's more than a word. It's a reprieve. It's a pension plan. It's being given a pension on your way out for the rest of your life, for your life, wherever you're going. So wherever you're going for eternity. It's the only thing that you take with you is what you left behind. And for cause, it was all about leaving behind a mark, a mark that of champion. Yeah, it was attached to ego. We all have it. Yeah, it was attached to some selfishness at all. But yeah, it was also attached to wanting to leave something

great behind, to know that you were part of it, that you existed for a reason, that you sacrificed for a reason. And all that freaking pain I brought my father, I was searching for something. Yeah, I made it into a righteous search. I made it into, I did. And I made it into, I was so, okay, because it was righteous. And I, but it still did damage it maliciously. He did it out of again. My father came home. This is how I'm going to connect it. My father came home from work one night, 12 o'clock and I was waiting up. And like I said, I was over 19 years old and he got mad at me.

He goes, go to bed. What are you doing up? I said, wait for you. Wait for you. And he said, well, go to bed. I said, no, I, I, what were you doing? I said, I was at the hospital. You were there. Why were you there so late? I said, I was at the hospital. Why were you there so late? He answered me. He said, there was a patient. There was a sick patient. I said, he must be better now because you're his doctor, because my father could fix anything.

My father, nothing got in the way of the truth, nothing, nothing, even blown his son's bubble. Matter-facally, he said to me, no, he's not gonna get better, he's gonna die. And so I said, nine year old kid, you know, your kid yourself is, you know, it's not in a bad way, but, you know, you want with you. And I said, um, I said two things. First I said, how, how, how, you know, his doctor, how, how, it can't be. And then I said, I, I just said it almost angry. Then why were you there? Like you should have been here with me. Yeah. And you know what he said to me? Because you don't give up on life. Go to bed.

And give up on life. And that's, I finally connected the dots. There's idiot that didn't graduate high school. I finally connected to that. I was asking cuss to give up on life. You know, you don't give up on life. You don't give up on aspirations of life. Life is or forms of life. Doesn't have to be a physical form of it. It's life. It's having a reason to be alive. It's having a reason to have tomorrow. And and because there's only reason to have tomorrow, it was to have another heavyweight champ.

And Teddy Atlas, even though we were together all those years, and we were partners, and we trained together, and we were, you know, the only thing we didn't do was what they did in the Indian movies, where they cut to finger and they became blood brothers. That's the only thing we didn't do was what they did in the Indian movies, where they cut the finger and they became blood brothers. That's the only thing we didn't do. And I felt like we did that without cutting. And now here we are. And he freaking betrayed me.

And then all of a sudden I connected the dots. I was like, he didn't betray me in that cold sense. He didn't give up. Give up on life. Years later, Mike Tyson apologized to you. What's meaningful to you about that? How does that fit the story? I want to be the great gracious guy right now,

say, oh, I'm so human, that a man's man enough to say, sorry, that's it, we're good. I want to be really, that's the best presentation of Teddy Atlas I could put out there He's a good guy. He forgives. He's a good guy. He's a he's a he's a stand-up guy and he's a good guy. I'm not sure If he truly did it for himself that he really did it Because he felt that it was true.

But but if he's persuaded by other things, he was in the middle. I know I'm taking it too deep. I know, but what am I going to do? He was in the middle of 12 steps with the, you know, getting out of drugs alcohol or 12 steps, which is a commemorable, really it is. And he's taking his steps. The part of the steps was to admit or to apologize to all people you were offended in life.

Okay. But are you doing it for the 12 steps or So you don't want it because you really, truly have come to terms with believing what you did was that hurtful to me and that it matters to you that it was that hurtful to me and that you were wrong and doing it. Did you do it for, I know that's deep. I know that I'm a freaking idiot. You're a Teddy, you're freaking,

you should be better than that. He, uh, you're, you're, you're a, Teddy, you're, you're, you should be better than that. He's better than you. Yeah, maybe he is better than me. Maybe he is. Really. Seriously, maybe he is. And, and I took it. He put his hand, I took it. We hung. He said, I love you. I, I, yeah. Yeah. But I want to believe. But what it cost tell me no matter what a man says, this is what he does in the end that he intended to do all along. So today, today was it really genuine or was it reflexive of that moment for him to get what he needed to you know for that step or was it truly for what I needed to really that he really cared that what he did to me caused me to do what I did

because I did something that was pretty damn bad to him too. Is he able to deal with that and put that where it has to be put? Is he able to put that or is it just, he did something he had to do and maybe he's sorry he did it. I know them, look, I appreciate it that he, I would have rather been in a private place. Yes, so for people who don't know, you were in the middle of commentating a fight, and he walked up from behind you, and he said, you're sorry, he shook your hand,

gave you a hug. I didn't know he said, I love you. Yeah, he's emotional. I get emotional a little bit too. But he's emotional, and he can be... And he can be, I can see why people have a fascination and a love affair with him right now, because he was, because, you know, he was, he was the media, the media, all that went across the sky, that is, if they didn't see it, their parents told him about it. There was a media that came across

the sky one day, and the media was walking around in the room now. And that's the media right. And then it actually landed here. And that's it right there. And now he's come a long way. And now he's more human. And he's lovable. And compassionate.

And he cries. And I get the fascinate. I get the love affair, I get it because we're inherently we're people that want to forgive. We're people that we want to be good. We, and part of being good is to forgive people and to show compassion to people. And so, and when somebody's been damaged,

to acknowledge they've been damaged, to acknowledge that you know they've been damaged, and you care about them being damaged. And how do you show care to admiration? You know, in some ways, almost through adulation. And he's getting adulation from people like, you know, which is to a incredible level. And it's a phenomena, but I get it. I understand it. And I don't know if he gets it. I don't know if underneath all of this,

he's a complex guy, he's the sensitive guy. I don't know and I am too. One complex guy talking about another complex guy. I don't know if underneath the door where he's really truly at as far as that day that he said that to me. Is that part of you that's sorry to Mike? I'm not sorry. Yeah, and that's listen, that's fair. I know dimensions of human nature too well. Did not know that He still has to have certain because I have those strong films. What it's not fair for him to have them Then write it's fair

Now now he could look at it if he was to be held to his word that night that he just acknowledged is that What happened he deserved because of what he you know the position he put me in and he put himself in what he did And I wouldn't change nothing You know still you're you don't regret pulling the gun on him. I regret that I had to Yeah, I regret very much that that I had to that I regret very much. I'm across the line. I hated them for putting me in that position. That that you know, how dare he think that that somebody feels that that trivial. That the way I would feel about myself and the way the girl would feel about herself. There was 11 years old at the time.

How she would feel about herself. How dare they think it's that trivial that I shouldn't be ready to freaking to both die and kill for that. Why didn't custom auto see it in a deeper way and talk through it? The word came back to me. But of course, what does it mean? But the word came back to me that caused said, you were right. But if he took the side of Teddy, he would destroy potentially a great fighter. Why do you think that?

Okay. If you were to try to understand the point he was making, why is that true? Isn't the part of greatness that you said is building the character of knowing what is right, what, you know? Because it was afraid to go there where he used to not be afraid, because it's kind of like you're never afraid of going up. And I get it.

You know, when I try to fight it now, if I come out of retirement, I try to fight it now, I feel in camp like I feel like I'm on death row every day, that if every day I try to retrace my memory and say, did I feel this way when I was young? I don't remember feeling this way. I feel every day a dreadful feeling that if I don't get this right,

I portrayed everything. I portrayed the fight as trust. I portrayed what I'm supposed to be. And then one day I tried to figure it out. Why do I feel this way? So intense. I was in camp for two months, training a guy for the world title a couple of few years ago.

Um, fighting a hottest puncher in the world at the time. And um, Adonis Stevenson and the fight was Ukrainian and I was, you know, brought into training for that fight. And he trusted me and changed his whole style. Trusted me. Oh my God. I went to bed every night like praying, um, dread, waking up, dread, my stomach down to here, every day, saying, what if I fail him? What if everything that I told him was going to happen? Don't happen?

What if I fail him? What if he trusted me and I betrayed that trust? And the thing was the what cost was you know He used to be stronger than that and then I tried to figure it out why I got this way And why was so dreadful to me and why I felt like I was on that row every day trying to fight it like did I do enough? They do right well Well, we accomplished what we accomplished what I promised them we would accomplish what I keep my word and And then I started thinking, how did I become this weak? How did I become, I was a pretty strong, freaking guy.

How did I become this weak? And then finally I think I figured it out. You know why? Because I was always working to get up. But once I finally got up, now I was looking down. And I finally hit me. I said, I didn't want to lose. I said, there was nothing no lose on my way up.

Now, a son is something to lose when you're up there and you're looking down. And that's where he was. And that's where it cost was. Because it was at the end of his rope. He was he accomplished two world champs, all this stuff, right? Everything he and and and he did it right. Now all of a sudden it wasn't about moving forward. It was about not falling down. Holy cow. I was like, I got it because I got it. I got it. You didn't want to fall down. Oh my God. You didn't want to fall. And he this was his last chance. And he, this was his last chance. You don't give up on life. This was his last chance to live forever, to make everything he did worthwhile, to have

the youngest, it wasn't just heavyweight champion. You got to remember, he was the youngest heavyweight champion ever. And to have that, it was okay to die now and has loyalty. So named Teddy Atlas gonna get in a way of that. That's a title wave that they ain't no war that's been made high enough to stop that tidal wake. And now I'll stop myself. Yeah, there is. But but it would have to be all for big one. And you know what? Who will we to say that we could ever build that wall that peak? Who is any of it? Who might it say? Do you think if you were to put yourself in the shoes of custom auto, can you see yourself having the big enough wall where you would choose loyalty?

I've asked the way I feel, then I'm making myself John Wayne again. You don't have to answer that. I think loyalty is important. No matter what a man says, what he does in the end, that he intends to do all along, I didn't make that up custard and when when this whole went down Those words came freaking echoing into my freaking ears. I didn't want them cotton doesn't help

And they freaking kept coming into my ears And what do you think still a immature kid at the time. I was young. Still an immature kid at the time. What the fricking do you think my response was? You will fall off. And but I got past that. Do you forgive us?

Have you found forgiveness? Listen, I forgive because He gave me more than he took away from me If I can what kind of man am I if I can at least acknowledge that and be grateful for that? He gave me more than he took from me and I'm grateful for that. I'm also grateful for what I gave him, that I did give him some.

And at that point in his life, a place to still have test tubes and chemistry experiments, you know, a laboratory where you could still create great fire. And I helped give them that. I helped, I was part of that lab and we can show that lab was there. And just that there was the existence of test tubes in a place because you can't freaking tube experiments without test tubes. Now you're the scientist, with the test tubes. Yeah, I guess so.

And I just hope that what I said earlier is really my thread through this whole thing. When you say, can you forgive us? I'm still trying to forgive myself. And if I can have hope that I can forgive myself, I think that hope has to start with the power to forgive someone else. How can I ever forgive myself for all my failings and figure it out if I can't start and practice it by forgiving someone else for some shortcomings? And for me, that's that's that's the only sense of sometimes a very hard thing to make sense of that, that's my north star. That's that's my compass.

Because just to make me laugh, you know, me and him did everything together. We dry and we get lost in the city. We get lost in a bra and he get all frustrated. And he said, Atlas, you know, great trainer, but you turn you around, you spin you around and you're lost. And I said, me or we? And because I was the only one who would argue with him. And it was really funny sometimes.

And I said, we or me, you were, we or, it goes, I don't get it. Cause you're lost. I'm lost. What are you talking about? And then all of a sudden, cause couldn't give in. He just couldn't admit. He couldn't give in.

You know what he said to me? All of a sudden he goes, when I was an army, if I had a compass, I could get out of the woods. I said, when I'm in the woods, when I'm an army, if I had a compass, I could get out of the woods. I said, when I'm in the woods, when I'm army, we don't have a compass. Because, just, just, argue with me. One time we're driving. I want to get back to Cascale. We just finished at the Bronx.

It's been a long day, you know, visiting the murderous Inc. houses and everything else that he took me through for the 1800 time. And he would fall asleep. He was getting older and he would just fall asleep in the car. So what do you think? I went a little faster, right? Because before he went to sleep, he said, don't speed. So I don't consider myself, I try to be an honest guy, and I try to be a freaking, but, it was a five or six ass. What do I say earlier?

Try to do less submitting. Yeah, really. In all phases, try to submit a little less, try to lie a little less today. A little less. Try to get stronger. Try to get a little less, try to lie a little less today. A little less. Try to get stronger, try to get a little better. So here we are and we drive and all of a sudden he's, what did I do? 80, 75 probably, probably did, you know, whatever.

And all of a sudden he wakes up You were speeding I lie no, I wasn't Don't lie I'm not You lied again you were speeding Now come on this guy. He's you know what I mean? He's he's He's unbelievable. So I got a freaking you know, he's, he's unbelievable. So I got a freaking, you know, he's the, he's David Copperfield. I want to know the trick. I want to know how he freaking, he made this thing disappear. So I said, well, you talk, how do you know he

goes, because I timed you, I looked at the post number and I'm like, what? I looked at the post number and I'm like what I looked at the post number on the side of the road Yeah, where we walk whatever mild and I never knew they even existed. Yeah, I look and I said yeah There's little numbers. He started timing and he goes sleep. Yeah, he timed it. He looked he goes We couldn't have got from here today and that's not a time unless you were going 75 miles an hour and like Not a time unless you were going 75 miles an hour and like All right, I'm with my man. All right. I'm impressed you know, don't try to get the mileage to my power Part right it's enough that you got me yeah, that's enough. I'm Yeah, I said and I'm not gonna do that no one you know, and just he helped me in crazy ways where

there would be times where I wanted to be, you know, where you wanted to be whatever, right? Convenient, weak, submit, right? And then all of a sudden, all of a sudden, in my mind, Cus was there with the stopwatch. I'd be like, you know, no, you know, way I was about to say yes to whatever that particular situation was. Somebody up there, Carl. Hello? Yes, you're great. Thank you. Just for the record, never had a phone call like this. It's hotel security.

The question is he asked me, is are you okay, sir? Are you okay? Are we okay? I think so. I think so, so far. Yeah. You know, I can only go like so far. It's kind of like that old joke, you know, where the guy from 12 to Empire State Building and he's going, you know, A.D. floor, 70 floor, 60 floor, 50,

and he gets passed to 50 floor and they're looking at the window and he goes, how am I doing? I think so far, so good. I don't know where it's's so far, so good. I don't know where it's going to end, but um, so Mike Desson is considered by me to be one of the great boxers, one of the greatest boxers of all time.

Heavyweight boxers. Uh, what do you think on the positive side made him great? I don't know if he was ever great. I know he was sensational. I know he was the greatest mix of maybe speed and power ever. I know he was one of the greatest punches from either side of the plate left or right. There's been great punches with just the right hand like Ernie Schavers and Deante Wilder and Max Bear. I don't know if there's ever been anyone who could punch as good as he did on either side with either hand

other than Joe Lewis and a few others. I don't know if there's ever been such a combination of speed and power to that pure level that he had and it was a pure level. I don't know if there was ever as good a fighter as Tyson was for maybe one night. He was great. I don't know if there was ever as good a fighter as Tyson was for maybe one night. He was great. He wasn't tested, but he might have been ready to be tested at one night against Michael Springs. When he took him apart 90 seconds, I think I saw a great fighter that night. I don't think you can be great unless you have all the requirements of being great. What does it take to be a great fighter? Truly great.

To not rely on someone's house this weakness to be strong, to be strong on your own, too often he relied on other people's weakness, whether it's to by being intimidated or whether it's because his talent was so much greater than theirs that it was like putting up monster truck in there with a Volkswagen. And the Volkswagen was going to get crushed. No matter how much horsepower the Volkswagen might have had under the hood and you put under the hood. It was going to get crushed. A monster truck was not going to allow it to be a contest. And to be able to find a way

when your talent wasn't enough, he didn't find the way when his talent wasn't enough. And I'm not making statements if I'm not ready to put some evidence you know like if we were in a courtroom exhibit a when he fought when he fought Buster Douglas Buster Douglas matched his will and didn't get integrity stood up to him he didn't do what most people did. He didn't submit even a little bit, not that night. He hadn't a pass, but that night didn't. Why? Because Buster had, Buster had a sicker weapon that night, his mother. Buster's mother had died a few months previous. He loved his mother very much. Buster had always had talent, big, every way, talented, compunction, technically solid. It was all those things always was, but he quit and fights. He did less than he should have done. He never lived up to his

ability. He gave in. He submitted. He wasn't strong enough. He never had a reason to be strong enough. When his mother died, he had a reason. Nothing could hurt him as much as his mother dying hurt him. Mike Tyson included. That night, Mike Tyson could not hurt him as much as his mother had hurt and by dying. That night, he had a reason to be strong for his mother. And he was strong. He was everything he was supposed to be. And he was strong. He was everything he was supposed to be and more and he stood up to Mike and Mike For the first time maybe ever was in a fight where he had to overcome some where he had to be more than talented more than a puncture More than a guy with scintillating speed and He wasn't and then that night got followed by another night with Holy Field.

Holy Field wasn't as town that is him, as big as a monster poncha. But Holy Field had the character. He was stronger ways to tie. So it wasn't strong. He was strong in a way where he could find a way. He was willing to find a way. He was willing to find a way. He's willing to go to the cliff to truly die before he submitted.

And you know, a lot of stuff is just worth. Yeah, they're gonna have to carry me out on the shield. Yeah, sure, okay. Yeah, until it comes time to be carried out on the shield. Sometimes there's people that actually mean it. You think Mike didn't have that? Well, all right. He let's just say arbitrarily, I don't have his record from me. Let's say it was 55 and five. I know he had about five losses. All right. Let's say it was 55 and five. Right. A lot of narcos. I have a saying, a fight's not a fight until there's something to overcome.

Until then, it's just an athletic exhibition contest. Yeah, who's a better athlete? Who's got more quick Twitch fibers? Who's more developed? Who's better at this? Who's more developed in those physical areas? But a fight is not a fight until there's something to overcome. Okay. So if you go by my definition, not Websters, my definition,

but they think means something. My title was only in five fights in his life. Tyson was only in five fights in his life. The five fights where there was something to overcome, and he didn't overcome it. Now, I know people hate me for this, including Tyson. I understand, hate me. Oh, you're a hater because you won't with him. You didn't make the money because this, because that, because you got the train.

I think I'm better than that. I hope I'm better than that. I hope I'm better than that. I believe I'm better than that. I'm not a hater. I've broke his fights for 25 years on ESPN where there was some people in the corner I did not like. And if they did a good job, this guy's doing a great job. And then there were guys that I liked and I had a friend sugar. He messed up. We won't friends no more. Friendship gotta be tested. Remember that? So we won't friends no more. But why did I do that? Because it was my job. It was more important for me when it's all over with the only thing you

left with is, I mean, we're going to be dust all of us, right, the only thing you're left with is, I mean, we're going to be dust all of us, right? The only thing we're left with is what carries on a reputation. You know, legacy, whatever that is, but our reputation. So we're left with and that's all our kids are left with. I want it to be as good as it can be. I've always had a ability. I've done a lot of things wrong and I've had a lot of lacking.

But the one strength I've had, I had a strength, is to understand somehow to us Moses, I guess, to learn the lesson that was important is not what's in front of you for those five seconds for that moment in life. It's what's left behind you when those five seconds are gone. When that, what, whatever it is that you're dealing with, you know, whatever the, that moment is, whatever that moment, what you do in that moment, the action of that moment is going to stay with you and be you. It's going to become you. to stay with you and be you. It's going to become you. What what you face for that moment.

It's gone. It's it's gone in the air and in instant. It's gone. It's done. Whether you take whether you stand up then you get shot in the head and the guy freaking blows your brains out or you're freaking you're you stand up or you're fighting a guy who's like an unscary guy to fight, but you fight him and you beat him or he beats you up. But how you represented yourself Represented yourself in that moment. It's all that matters. That's going to live what happened. Don't matter. It don't matter that you guys shot in the head. I know that sounds absurd.

But if you believed that was important to stand up and take the chance to get shot in a freaking head rather than to live like an empty vessel You know what That's all the freaking matters and somehow that guy freaking wrapped into this freaking head of mine Like that's what matters. That's all the matters. You know how many times I went and I There were things whether it was this one with Tyson with that. I didn't want to be there. I was scared to death. But I was more scared. I was more scared living with a grant. How I would have felt. Yeah. I don't want to be in solitary confinement of us in my life with that freaking guy in the cell next to me called regret.

I don't think I want to be next to that guy. If I want to freaking go down that road, I'll watch papillon, you know what I mean? And I'll get my fill from that. But I don't want to freaking live it. I'm afraid of what my chosen to think of me. If I fail in those areas, Why? Because that's forever. When I'm closing my eyes for last time, I don't want to have that fear. I don't want to have that fear. You know, when I'm going down there or

when I'm going up there, you know, I I left because I was around guys years ago that used to when we talk about that, you know, ingest, you know, and we get a kick out of this one guy who's been around the blog a few times. When he said, they tell you, I ain't worried about that. I got a friend in both places. That's a good line. And I thought it was good. Listen, my

Tyson, you want me to say it was a great fighter, then you want me to betray what I really, you know what I mean, you want me to do that. I ain't doing it for, listen, I could do it to be a big at any atlas. And I know it would work for me. I know it would be, it'd do great promotional work for me. I know it would make me more popular in certain areas. I know it. I'm not that dumb, not that dumb. But I also know what else it would do to me. And I don't want it to do that to me.

I think he was a great talent. I think maybe the night when Michael Spinks, maybe the night when my, maybe he could have been that fighter, maybe go, but he didn't never really get tested, but he might have been ready no matter what. I have to be tested that night. That's how good he was. That's how, even though it was a guy who used to be a light heavyweight, I get it, but we're still a guy who beat Larry Holmes who still had something left, Michael Springs. So at a great punch and an Olympic gold medalist, but at a special fighter, one of the great light heavyweights of all time. You know what Mike Tyson was? He was a meteor. He was a meteor that struck a course and not too many meteor skis. And we still talk about him. And unlike hell he's covered. He came back and he's walking around and he's he has become

greater after his career, more loved, more beloved, more old and he's been forgiven. He found the fountain of forgiveness. I don't know. I wish I could find that where he has been forgotten for all his shortcomings, all the things that he may have done may not have done. We don't know only him and God know. But he's been forgiven of all that and he's been not only forgiven. He's raised above it and above that and been brought above that. He's been brought to the pyramids of the greatest athletes in the world. And in every way, in every way as a person, as a fighter, as a historian, as a figure, as a figure as a celebrity, I mean, even a philosopher, everything. So I will take it back. All right. Oh, you guys out there. You forgive me. He's the greatest of all time. If you encapsulate all that, if you encapsulate

everything, I just tried to describe and explain. If you put that all, he's the greatest of all time. Yeah, he is, but he still might be on five, you know, record of 55 fights. He might, and Terry Atlas's book, again, I got friends of both places. So it's okay. Where I go? I have company. Somebody there will like me. Despite me saying saying this he might be on five because of five fights where there was something to overcome Which really defines our fight he came he didn't find a way Let me ask Teddy Atlas to introspect on the human nature here It's part of the complexities of your feelings on this whole thing is that you know

To some degree that if you were coaching Mike Tyson, he could be truly great I know cold. I'm gonna cut you right off because you as a million dollar question. I wish you didn't But you did you did Because that's why do I get paid why you's why you get paid. I get it. You know the words how I'm out. That's why you all where you are. And that's why I'm here. The humility. I'm going to I'm going to again, full disclosure at some point, right? I'm going to cheat. I'm going to take some of Cuss's wisdom. All right, a little bit of my. Yeah. Costa told somebody that

if Teddy Atlas got his way, he might have been a better person, but we would have risked him not being a great fighter. Now, I believe, and I thought it was it. And I think he did up to that point in his life, that part of your strength of character made you a great fighter. And truly a great fighter and part of that battle to be a better person that that fight, if you will, to be a better person to overcome the things to be a better person to overcome the things, to be a better person. Part of that fire, you have to go through to be a better person.

I really truly bought into it and I'm in for life. That is really the only way to be a great fighter. And I don't think that's what Cosmant. I don't even meant, I think he meant that Cosmant knew more than I did of what was about the common, what would come and what the world was, but how people would try to steal them, how people would take them, how people would steal his guy. The last thing he had to really, the thing that he lived for, because he lived to have another heavyweight champ, the greatest fight ever, Cousin Cousin's mind, he could be. And I believe that Cousin knew that he could perform a guy that had the ability to be the

greatest fighter ever without fully completing the mission of what it takes to really be great but that he wouldn't, he wouldn't be around to have to witness it. And that he wouldn't, He was well... he would... Man is his awful. He's well to concede that he might be dead in order to have eternal life, in order to have greatness. Which does have greatness,

and part of that greatness is attached to Tyson. And he deserves it. He deserves it. Constantly was a great man. And I wouldn't be here partly without him. But that was part of the calculation. I know that's deep and I know that's, oh God, I hate myself right now. But um, but because he knew he was getting out free, he knew he was going to not have to be there. He was he was getting off easy. I'll tell you how do you say someone's going to be dead to get off easy.

Well, I say it again, case you didn't hear me, right? He was going to get off easy and not have to face where he came up short because he did his job because he put forward the greatest fight of all time and you guys screwed it up. And he knew that that might happen, but you guys screwed it up. And whatever, that's your fault. That's on. I'll tell you that Tyson would be mad at us, but that's on Tyson. How can you say that, Teddy? He loved me. I'm not saying he didn't love you, but he loved some other stuff, too. And I don't know if Tyson could ever come to Cripp's light with that, and it's not his job, too. But it's my job not to hide from it.

I know Custon dimensions that other people just only think they know. The Kassna, the Kassna they know the customer the customer this amount of cell They Did he reflect the interest back? Oh, he sent a message to me cousin a guide to me My wife was pregnant. We were living in a apartment apartment in Katsuko on Kortuskyo We went through all this you know, and I Was getting ready to move to stand on. And we stood with our full little while before we did, you know, after all this went down.

He sent a guy to me, to the house, secret, whatever you want to call it, my wife, me. So I listened to him. Because said, if you leave, I'm a messenger, you know, whatever. If you leave, this was in the aftermath of what the God knows thing. You gotta remember, the text was a word of the state. He was putting causes custody, because was looking to adopt him Five years reason so he had control and he loved them How dare I say anything less I won't But it made sense too But he was awarded a state still do you know what that means?

There's rules Means the state still overlooking it. Mm-hmm. If he ain't living the right life, you know, he got to remember he came out of a jail. So reform school. But if he ain't living like he could be taken away from cause. What's not living the right life? Well, he wasn't a school normal. They didn't know about it. He had some things that were going on. We won't get into that right now in school and different things whatever And he had his train of put a gun to his head. That is so good If a report came back to them that that happened He would have been taken away from cuss That couldn't happen. Look nobody knows this. I talk about a little bit, but never probably

because why would I? I don't know. Why am I doing it now? I don't know because I am because it's now, because it's now, maybe, maybe because it's now. I don't know. So he sent this man that, you know, obviously we both knew. and he said, he is the deal Teddy. If no talk about this, once it's a, you know, disappear basically, you leave, and he will give you 5% his word. Can you imagine? He will give you 5% of Tyson's earnings for the rest of his career. And but I don't regret it one bit because it wouldn't happen anyway.

See that's where I could be honest with my people saying, oh, stand up guy because I don't shove it with, you know, you know, in that place. And and and and tell cause to shove it in that freaking plate, you know, I was mad. Teddy, Teddy, don't get angry. Don't get angry. Are you serious? Get out of here. Tell him to go shove it up. And, you know, my wife was like,

ah, but, and then people like, why didn't you take the deal? It wasn't a deal. It was an escape clause. cuss. It was, it was, it was an insurance policy that his, you know, this kid wouldn't be taken away from him. And thank God he wasn't. I wasn't going to go and say nothing. They didn't have to worry about cuss for God who I was. Cuss for God why he went to court for me because of those because of those characteristics that he said he loved and he noticed and then that he admired I

didn't lose those characters he forgot that that was me he forgot who he was talking to he didn't have to do that how about that's why I told him to shove it up is that not because of the other insult and then and then when people said to me All you would stand up because it was around a little bit It was around in the circles and then we'll be whole stand up Teddy. He didn't care about the money I said stand up Teddy. What are you talking about? How about? How about just realistic Teddy? How about I live in a real world that I was never gonna get that money?

So I'm saying, I'm standing up to something that I knew never existed. So I ain't stand up, not in that way. I am in other ways maybe, but don't put a medal on my chest for that. Because that never existed. It was never meant to exist, but he didn't even understand. That was the one thing that really

disappointed me because I was like, because you really allowed this to get to you. Where you're allowed it to really fuck up your thinking to the point where you're smarter than that, you're better than that, that you would actually think you got a freaking off for me, a freaking piece of silver. You really think that that's what you freak you. Like all that you told me that you love me and that we were, I was the young master and the oldest and you think you were going to buy me? And I was going to and that was going to keep me quiet.

How about I would keep quiet because I would always keep quiet. So he thought maybe you might betray him. Isn't that interesting? Yeah. And why did he think that? No, no, really, fear. Yeah, but yeah, fear is at the essence of everything. It's a connected with everything, fear of losing what he was going to lose, but it was more

than fear. It was him not believing in the things that he told me he believed in. He didn't even know that. He believed in me because I was a stand up guy because I, because I didn't sell myself because, because I, you know, I didn't freaking turn evidence. I didn't make a deal. I didn't do, I, I, I, that's why he went to court. That's why he stood up for me.

And I appreciated it. And that was what he lived by. And that was his, you know, those were the blocks of being a man. Oh, so much for those blocks. Well, it's like you said loyalty requires, uh, you know, he would have had to take a risk on losing immortality that he would achieve by creating. And that's the only way you have you one champion. A hundred percent. But the only way you ever find out if somebody is hard, that's hard, it's the test and it was cussed.

This is Shakespearean, you know, this story. Cussed told me, cussed and it just coming different forms. Yeah. I said, all right, cussed. This was his test. And some people fessed this test because they're able to pass that test because it's not really a test, not for them, because it doesn't speak to their weakness. But it's the test that speaks to the weakness. That's the one. So this one, I get it. I get what it spoke to because you know what at the end of the day I forgive you

And I feel bad for you I feel bad that you were putting that position after you lived your life that way and that you that you taught that and you preached that from the mountain tops That that you had to be, that you had to be, I'm not going to use the word, but that that you had to fail yourself and that you had to somehow know that before you died. I just prayed that you didn't know that. And you still don't know that because you were great. You were great. And you've given me something.

You know, you've given me something to aspire to us, to try to be last week, try to be better, and try to be as good as you want it to be. I wish I can someday. More importantly, I wish I can make my father, you know, feel just feel good up there. Your grandfather now. Yeah, for your grandchildren. What if you give him advice on how to live a life they can be proud of? Just, um, do everything you can to the best of your ability every day to like yourself.

To give yourself a reason to actually say, I'd like to be friends with that guy. Is loyalty one of the reasons one of the things that aspire to. Loyalty is your chance to have a fulfilled life. Loyalty is your chance to have strength, to have all the things you need to have a good life, to be a good parent, be a good husband, be a good grandfather, hopefully be a good role model. Loyalty is if you could find something to drink, to take into your body to make you prepared for life, to be all the things that you want to be, to be strong enough, to be those things, loyalty would be the thing you would drink. And when I say loyal, I mean unequivocally, I mean, you know, unconditionally, not conveniently. Obviously, you know that. If you could be loyal, you could be a good person. You could be a person that you would actually like to be around, because you could

be a person you could rely on. And I think that's one of the greatest assets that a human being can have. And what do you do when you're betrayed? How do you overcome that? You think of what you learned from it. Use it as a roadmap to remember and to think back of how you got there. And how you got to the place where you got betrayed. And how that person got to that place. Try to remember that in your own journey. As it for you, mate, you cynical, like how do you try,

how do you take the leap of trust towards people again and again after that? Just by remembering that I'm still trying to forgive myself for the things that I came up short with. And if I haven't figured that out yet, it's probably okay to say they didn't figure it out yet. They didn't figure it out. And if I couldn't figure it out, and I'm still trying to figure it out and if I couldn't figure it out and I'm still trying to figure it out, maybe

I could get over that initial stabbing of what it feels like it does feel kind of like a stabbing that you feel when you betrayed initially and that you could only think of anger, we bench, hate fit. I know things, I'm not I'm not proud of that but I'm but I felt all those things you know and I still feel them sometimes and then I go back and say, hey, you're still working at forgiving yourself for some things. Try to remember that kid. You know, mommy's an important thing. Forgetfulness is pretty important too. And I'm trying to remember why we forget. Why do we forget? Because it wasn't something you felt proud of. You think about your death? Are you afraid of it? You know, it's funny. You asked that. I never used to think about it. I know people in both places, you know, I know.

You got to cover. You're gonna be all right. Don't forget that. I know people gotta cover You're gonna be alright. Don't don't forget that. Yeah, I know people in both places. Yeah, um Both neighborhoods I I I've been given credit for being brave in certain spots in life. I hope I can be brave when it comes time to leave life. I hope I can be. You know, and that's real and honest as you can be about it. I hope I can be, you know, so far so good, you know, when I've had to be certain things

that would get to freaking death, I found a way to beat them for the most part. And so I figured when that day comes, I figured that out too. It's going to be another test, maybe the last one. Teddy, it's a huge honor to talk to you. No, it's my pleasure. Thank you for being the human you are, for being honest, honest about the full range of human nature. And thank you for talking today. Thank you.

Thank you for having me. And thanks for listening. Thanks for listening to this conversation with Teddy Atlas. To support the spot guest, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now let me leave you with some words from Muhammad Ali. I hated every minute of training, but I said, don't quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion. Thank you for listening. And hope to see you next time.