Lions Led By Donkeys Podcast - Episode 245 - The Troubles Part 3

Episode Date: January 29, 2023

Tom continues to take Joe through the history of the Troubles in Northern Ireland. During this episode we talk about Bloody Sunday and how and why nobody has ever been held accountable. CONTENT WARNING: This gets pretty grim. Support the show! Get bonus content! https://www.patreon.com/lionsledbydonkeys Follow Tom on Twitter: https://twitter.com/gotitatguineys Listen to The Beneath the Skin Podcast:https://twitter.com/BeneathSkinPod

Hey everybody, Joe here from the Lions Led by Donkeys podcast. If you enjoy what we do here on the show and you think it's worth your hard-earned money, you can support the show via Patreon. Just a $1 donation gets you access to bonus episodes, our Discord, and regular episodes before everybody else. If you donate at an elevated level, you get even more bonus content. A digital copy of my book, The Hooligans of Kandahar, and a sticker from our Teespring store. Our show will always be ad free and is totally supporter driven we use that money to pay our bills buy research materials that make this show possible and support charities like the red crescent the flint water fund and the halo trust consider joining the legion of the old crow

today and now back to the show hello and welcome to the lions led by donkeys podcast i am not joe once again it's tom here and I am joined by Joe. Yay, Joe. I would like there to be a group of people. This is the series they started listening to this podcast on. They're like, oh, it's hosted by an Irish guy. Like, surprise, it is not. The old switcheroo, the Irish switcheroo. I got to say, Joe, you look like, you know, that YouTube guy, Simon Whistler, who has like a million channels and he's the host of YouTube. Yeah. Yeah. So like, you know, real 2am I can't sleep watching. You look exactly like him right now. Cause Joe does not have any hair right now. I had a, a small, uh, medical procedure. I'm not going to talk about that

required me to shave my head. Uh, and, uh, I i have been told that i now that i look like simon whistler and i look like i was the background uh mob goon and like uh eastern promises or something fun fact there was no russian actors in uh eastern promises they were all armenians yeah yeah i mean, when you, you have to outsource and also Vika Mortensen, who's now an honorary Armenian. I mean, like it's kind of exactly what you've done with these,

this series, because you've outsourced it to me. They outsourced Eastern Promises to Armenians. Eh, close enough. I mean, all the Russians that moved here can't seem to tell the difference. So it's

fine i mean like you know hey hey reconquer the caucuses well they're trying they're trying aren't they that is part of the problem yeah they're doing their best they're doing their best you know try uh conquering by a thousand cuts or uh conquering by a thousand bottles of kvass i think i've told this story before on the show and i hate to like fall into that that pit of like i don't remember what i've said on an episode and what i don't but i've been doing this for a long time so i apologize uh the other day uh somebody asked me for directions he's russian and he asked me in russian i don't speak russian and uh but he spoke english so he's asking like oh well i can, I can't find the, where the street is. Cause he was on like one of the few streets that doesn't also have like Russian under the Armenian or English under the Armenian.

Cause in the center part of the city, it's mostly both or all three. Right. And in the older parts, it's only Armenian and Russian. And he's like, well, I don't understand why there's that Russian on these signs.

Like, you don't, huh? Weird, that is. I have a friend who loves going to Eastern Europe and going to the Caucasus for a couple of days holidays. He has one of those jobs where he can do that, but he's Australian and he also speaks Russian.

So if you see a 6 foot three ginger australian guy going around speaking russian then that's probably my mate there's definitely a particular type of guy most most of those guys ends up end up in georgia i don't know why uh the the the expat community is like a foothold in tbilisi uh they don't really stay here um I don't entirely know why uh but I'm not mad about it but like funnily enough like this dude uh lived in Ireland now lives in Belgium and like when you when I asked him was like oh where would you like love to live and he was like Tbilisi so there you go I don't I don't know why it's like one of the expat places

in the Caucasus well really like the only one because like no expats are gonna go fucking hang out in Baku or whatever I mean unless you're a very very particular type of a expat who has a certain type of contract yeah you work for the oil state-owned oil company or whatever uh like you get them to like come visit here but normally it takes like i have quite a few friends who actually fall into this category but they're like very weird and i mean that in the best way possible where like you could tell that they wouldn't get along with other expats or whatever uh but uh yeah it's it's very interesting that i don't know why tbilisi is this is is this magnet for it i guess i don't know i i don't i don't get that kind of life yeah it doesn't really appeal to me either but one thing that does appeal to me and this is a great

segue is talking about irish history in particular the certain segment of irish history that we are at right now in this series on the troubles now some people have spoken to me in the past you know uh weeks since the first episode has come out and said that oh we know we can't wait to hear you talk about this or that and like this is you know six hours of audio about the history of the troubles there are people who've dedicated their entire careers to it i can't talk about everything. And once again, to reiterate that this series is about helping people understand what was the troubles, why it happened, and really the environment around it. It's not necessarily about specific people. There are people who will crop up over and over again.

But this is really about the people of Northern Ireland, how it affected their lives and the overall like state of the nation um it's not necessarily about oh i'm just going to talk about ian paisley or bernadette devlin or martin mcginnis you know they do pop up but this is about you know the overall history and anyone who has listened to this show before and if you have just been listening to this series you know you're very welcome but this show kind of it's about you know the bigger picture so

to catch anyone up if you have taken a break from listening to this in the summer months of 1969 saw some of the worst rioting in Northern Ireland's history mainly in response to the heavy crackdown on the civil rights movement in the province as time went on the marches became less concerned

with civil rights and became more about the national question. The IRA had been quiet for a number of years beforehand and decided that a non-violent response would be the best and did not fight.

You had the Battle of the Bogside and in Belfast entire streets or houses were burned down by rioters and over 3,500 families mainly Catholics were driven out of their homes as a response. Seven people were killed and 100 wounded as the rioters

began to use guns. Many ordinary Protestants were appalled by the dramatic reaction of the government to the civil rights campaign although many hardliners support it. And that's kind of something that someone mentioned to me in the previous episode, is that the regular people who are caught up in this, there was a sectarian divide in society, but there was still quite a lot of people who were like, you know, just wanted to get on with their life. And that's something that kind of comes up in conversation a lot more now that we are, you know, 25 years removed from like the core of the troubles.

Yes, there is still some social and political conflict in the North, but quite a lot of people just want to get on with their lives. And we'll bring some aspects of either republicanism or unionism into it but like the majority of people just want to live um i think that's something that a lot of people kind of either willingly or don't understand from any sectarian conflict civil war or whatever in history we're like the vast majority of people do not give a fuck. They just want to go on living their lives in peace and relative peace and safety. Likewise, famously, the Revolutionary War, the vast majority of people didn't really care in the United States.

Because it didn't really apply to them. They just wanted to go on living their lives. How could they not? I mean, that's human nature is to just get through the day uh how like it's really weird that people think that like the vast majority of people in northern ireland were either hardcore unionists or hardcore uh like uh republicans it's really it's a it's a really strange thing to think of that way and it's also like worth bearing in mind that that is that you know irish catholics on the whole were like very marginalized and that's why the civil rights

kind of campaign started it wanted equality in terms of like their treatment and then it sort of like began to transform into a more nationalist movement um but in the republic of ireland economic prosperity had made most citizens happy with life and indifferent to Northern Ireland and the issue of reunification. However it soon began to look as if the Northern Ireland government was suppressing a valid civil rights movement which

was now almost collapsing into civil war. On August 13th the Irish Taoiseach Jack Lynch said that the Irish government would not stand by and see innocent people injured. Some Unionists thought this was a threat to invade Northern Ireland to protect the Catholic population.

It is also thought that the Irish began placing troops near the border at this time. On the other side, they mobilised people maybe to field hospitals, but there was no mass mobilisation that essentially was fear- mongered in the Unionist community at this time. It's not like Ireland is exactly a military powerhouse.

I mean, invading Northern Ireland would be a war against the United Kingdom. Yeah. Yeah. And now we just have economic war across the border. That's what we got. That's what we got. But across the Irish Sea, the UK government realized in August that Northern Ireland was about to collapse into anarchy

because the RUC was simply not large enough to maintain order, but also... Yes, that was the problem with the RUC. That was the problem. It was not big enough. That's the fucking joke of like, there is only two policies that we can do it's like the guy sweating hitting a button it says more cops or more troops or more troop cops like those are the only two

options it's one or the other um so on the 15th of august the uk prime minister harold wilson ordered the british army into belfast and derry to support the ruc and this is what we talked about at the end of the last episode uh the army is still uh was still in ireland uh in northern ireland until you know the late 90s uh four days later he also ordered kind of there yeah there's still like some station uh troops in northern ireland but it's kind of like the same way you would have say a military base in alaska like you know it's why there's so many military bases in the south of the u.s is uh i mean to be fair they fucking deserve it fuck the south um four days later he also ordered the storm and government to establish a better community relations um introduce one man one one vote, disband the B specials,

and disarm and restructure the RUC. Yes, we're going to restructure the police that is known for the use of violence. Guys, I have an idea. We could make them more violent. What if there was more cops? Everything is just like, every part of society is just like a barnacle that more cops can grow off of and you know when you have sect i mean in every sectarian conflict i've ever heard of

this same kind of thing happens you can look at anywhere in the world where it's still going on you can look at iraq when it was happening there it's like weird how did we get like 16 new law enforcement divisions but they're all still soldiers yeah yeah all same fatigues just different badges yeah um but with their demands now unexpectedly met the official civil rights campaign uh slowly began to peter out however this is not the end of the story the violence that had erupted uh directed mainly towards the catholic community had prompted many people there to rekindle their old desire for United Ireland. In 1969 a fierce debate began within the ranks of the IRA. Some members

supported a non-violent strategy, however many others accused the leadership of going soft on the aim of United Ireland and pointed to the new presence of the British Army in Northern Ireland as a provocating force. This militant group split off in 1970 they formed the provisional ira

uh this is something that i'm gonna have to explain so much in this episode there's so many splitter groups it's do you know what this is just like a leftist tendency in fighting you know yes yes i i am a marxist leninist ir IRA member. Someone please don't clip that out. And began a bombing campaign in Northern Ireland and sometimes on the mainland of Britain designed to destroy the economy and force the British to withdraw. The provisional IRA almost certainly received money

and arms from members of the Irish government at the start of their campaign. Really? Yeah. Oh, wait until the next episode. arms from members of the irish government at the start of their campaign although the t-shirt yeah oh oh wait until the next episode wait i have a list of probably about 15 people that you will not expect that sent money to money and guns to the ira and there was i mean if we're talking about next episode i'll hold on then okay uh it's it's it's always very funny because i remember hearing things about like uh the the irish diaspora, if that's the word that people use for Irish Americans, that had jars out for the cause to collect change.

They were the Shriners. Yeah, but this is the weird kind of thing with a lot of irish diaspora particularly in the u.s well the u.s irish i mean as your show uh 33rd county shows like they're they're nuts yeah it is like once again people who have like no context of anything that has actually happened in ireland since you know the late 19th century but you know it is what it is um the t-shocks sacked the members involved in the scandal and the provisionals also targeted policemen and became increasingly involved in civilian demonstrations and riots this is going to become very important in they uh they targeted policemen within the republic of ireland or northern ireland in northern ireland so or uc members

that doesn't surprise me okay i thought i thought they were actually taking uh what what are the police called in ireland again i don't remember uh the guardi surprise me. I thought they were actually taking... What are the police called in Ireland again? I don't remember. The Gardaí. Yeah, I thought they were targeting the Gardaí. I'm like, oh fuck, I never heard of that one before. But this is something I'll talk about in... There's a lot of teasing

for the next episode because when you get to the end of this one, you'll understand exactly where we're going to pick up in the next episode. Outstanding. But 25 people were killed in 1970 and 174 were killed in 1971. The loyalist UVF also began to use violence to protect the Protestant community from the Provisional IRA and also launched their own offensive against Catholics and against the Irish Republic. By mid-1970, the Northern Ireland government realised

that the Provisional IRA was rapidly recruiting and would soon have the ability to fight a significant guerrilla war in Northern Ireland. They also realised that if they struck now, the army might have a chance to check this growth. So on an evening in late July 1970, the army imposed a curfew on the Catholic Falls Road in West Belfast and began storming houses and searching for arms. However, the searches uncovered arms in only about 5% of the houses searched, much fewer than they had been anticipating.

And searches were also violent and the net effect was increased support for the IRA and speed up recruitment. were also violent and the net effect was increased support for the IRA and speed up recruitment. Yeah, who would have thought? Who would have thought kicking open people's doors would have driven recruitment for the people that want to kill you? Yeah, as someone who fought in, you fought in Iraq or Afghanistan? Afghanistan. As someone who fought in Afghanistan, I'm sure you are familiar with this phenomenon of over-emphasizing the problem and then coming up with a minor minor results i mean it's a feedback loop it's the concept of counterinsurgency operations that's all you do

is constantly piss off the local population and swole the ranks of the insurgency which is why they never really work unless the insurgency like eventually comes to a peace agreement like the good friday accords uh like otherwise you can't win you're all you're doing is perpetuating an infinite war that will never end yeah yeah um in april 1970 ian paisley uh the honorable father ian paisley who is a rolling in hell right now um won a seat at stormont which only served to underline the split within unionism between the moderates and the extremists. So Ian Paisley is probably one of the more hardline, well, he's probably the most hardline person at this time in unionism who is a public figure. at this time in unionism who is a public figure he is a key figure in building that fear of you know catholic takeover like even as you moved into like the late 80s the fear around oh because catholics had generally higher birth rates than uh protestants they were like oh they're gonna

outbreed us yeah there's a reason why having a catholic amount of kids is a saying um at the same time the alliance party was formed in order to an attempt to bring about reconciliation between the two sides and in august 1970 a group of socialist nationalist politicians formed the social democratic and labor party it's the sdlp a party with no links to paramilitary groups or terrorism which soon became the main voice for the nationalist community in ireland so this is kind of you know you have these like parties that are growing and you see the sdlp come in as kind of representative for the like we're talking about the people who just want to get on with their life a more moderate uh ir moderate Irish Catholic community that

is kind of a holdover from the civil rights movements, but it's still left of centre, still quite further left than the middle ground. It's important to note. It's like the party for normal people.

Yeah, party for normal people. By August 1971, the army and the ruc had an idea a good idea who the main members of the paramilitary organizations were so they decided to introduce internment oh god lovely yes so uh this was to arrest like internment camps do you basically to arrest and hold people without evidence to take them

off the streets and hopefully prevent further murders within six months 2,357 people mainly from the nationalist community

although only about 10% of the final total were loyalists this is so fucking stupid all they're gonna do is create training camps for republicans yep you know like you already detained them they might as well become

militants now yeah but you know it's a voting for the leopards by eating my face party i mean famously like uh the leader of isis got more radicalized in a American POW camp or internment camp. Yeah, like that literally always fucking happens. Every single time this happens throughout history, it's like Camp Buka in Iraq was like effectively the Al Qaeda factory for the same reason. The innocent people would get thrown in there and they'd be like, man, fuck them. I'm already in prison. I might as well try to kill them.

Yeah. So if you are wondering about what's the conversion rate of this 2357 people that they actually, you know, managed to convict, 1600 people were subsequently released without any charges. So less than half so about two thirds of people were just like let go without any charges that's not even saying the amount of people who are pre who had charges pressed against them and then were subsequently let go right like i feel like a lot of those charges were bullshit and even the british knew it which is surprising yeah so like it's fairly obvious that this was badly organized and many innocent people were detained and most of the leaders of the paramilitary organizations slipped through the net and this is true like a series of

you know safe houses and networks where they could be you know housed but also through the use of people holding arms so you had a plausible deniability how dumb do the british think that the leaders of the ira are they're like oh no i have my membership badge right here and my armor light in my backpack like how fucking dumb do they think they are yeah this is this isn't the red army faction you're dealing with you're dealing with actual professionals hey say what you will about the red army faction but uh yeah i got nothing they blew up a banker that one time yeah like i mean they're both both groups are very good at prison breaks i'll give them that that is true i actually i may have confused them with

beider meinhof anyway um internment served only to increase support for paramilitary organizations yet again and this is when the rioting against internment also began oh who would have thought who would have thought if it was the consequences of my own actions so pretty much a lot like the rioting really consisted of uh protesters and demonstrators at army checkpoints and you know throwing stuff like stones, bricks and everything. And also in August, this is where we're going to get depressing, was the Ballymurphy Massacre in Belfast.

Well, that doesn't sound promising. Yeah, they all had teas and cakes. An event over the course of three days from the 9th until the 11th of August in which essentially a snatch and grab operation was undertaken operation demetrius was a series of dawn raids conducted by the first battalion parachute regiment that's never a good sign one para as they would commonly be known uh conducted a series of raids the main focus of which was to arrest and in turn suspecting members of the provisional ira um the parachute regiment was selected to carry out the operation um they the paras i i'm gonna

go off script here for a second and the paras are fucking psychotic famous famous for their levels of violence and just like being just like you put them in if you want people hurt pretty much to put it lightly um the operation was chaotic and informed by poor intelligence resulting in the number of innocent people being interned uh by focusing solely on republicans and excluded violence carried out by loyalist paramilitaries. Some nationalist neighborhoods attempted to disrupt the army with barricades, petrol bombs and gunfire. In the Catholic district of Ballymurphy, 10 civilians

were shot and killed between the evenings of the 9th of August and the morning of the 11th of August, while another died of heart failure. Is that by the paras? Yep, that's by the paras. So the killing of the 11 civilians at Ballymurphy enraged the Catholic community and further solidified the opposition the paras or the yep that's why the paras so the killing of the 11 civilians at bali murphy

enraged the catholic community and further solidified the opposition to internment and any efforts by the british army to establish quote uh establish peace and to root out the dangerous elements within northern ireland so um i um we spoke about this before uh we spoke about this yesterday before we recorded that um i want to make an effort, both in this and in subsequent events in this episode, to name and talk about the people who actually died, because most of these people have never actually received any justice. Pretty much no one has stood charges or been convicted of any of these crimes and um you know this is for the next like two minutes this is going to be quite grim so you know if you're sensitive to that just

please be aware um francis quinn 19 uh shot while going to aid a wounded man father hugh mullen 38 a catholic priest shot while going to the aid of a wounded man reputedly while waving a white cloth to indicate his intentions Joan Connolly 44 shot as she stood opposite the army base it has been claimed that she was shot by three soldiers and that she may have survived had she been given medical attention sooner but she lay injured in a field for several hours Daniel Taggart 44 was shot 14 times. Most of the bullets entered his back allegedly as he lay injured on the ground. Noel Phillips 20 shot as he stood opposite the army base. Joseph Murphy 41 shot as he stood opposite the army base. Murphy

was subsequently taken into army custody after his release. As he was dying in hospital, he claimed that he would have been beaten and shot again while in custody. When his body was exhumed in October 2015, a second bullet was discovered in his body, which activists had said corroborated his claim. So he was executed. He was summarily executed. Yes.

One civilian was killed on the 10th of august that's edward doherty 28 shot while walking along white white rock road another three civilians were shot on the 11th of august john laverty and joseph core were shot at separate points at the top of white rock road laverty was shot twice once in the back and once in the back of his leg. Corr was shot several times and died of his injuries on the 27th of August. John McIr 49 was shot in the head by an unknown sniper while standing outside a Catholic church and died of his injuries on the 20th of August. Well, a number of eyewitnesses stated that the soldiers were seen shooting towards the area. The 2021 inquest could not establish who had killed him.

An 11th civilian died on the 11th of august following the unaltercation with a group of soldiers patty mccarthy 44 patty mccarthy uh his family alleged that an empty gun was put in his mouth and the trigger pulled he suffered a heart attack and died shortly after the alleged confrontation and fucking snipers shooting into Catholic churches. It's fucking insane. You had, like, Paddy McCarthy, like,

essentially was tortured to death. He had a gun put in his mouth and the trigger pulled and he had a heart attack because of it. Yes. So, with that all in mind, and that is what First Para are like, in January 1972, a large anti-interment protest was organized for the 30th of january in derry the day is described as a cold and crisp morning with a clear uh and with a clear

sky and there was an air of tension from early on in the march um i'm gonna just warn everyone this section is quite long and just kind of brace yourself if you know you know hovering in the sky was an army helicopter and from this vantage point would come one of the most important accounts of the events that was to unfold surveillance officer INQ2030 as he would come to know in subsequent years recalled what it looked like up there

I can recall seeing lots and lots of people on the ground, perhaps as many as five or ten thousand. They appeared to be congregating around one particular spot. All of a sudden there was a burst of action. People began running in all directions and the crowd effectively scattered. I can think of no way to describe it than the effect of dropping a stone

into an ant's nest. It was almost as if people on the ground disappeared, although i could see them hiding behind walls and buildings so um for anyone who is interested i'm going to talk a lot about you know specific streets and movement on those streets i would recommend maybe looking up a map of the bogside area in dairy if you want if you're interested to follow along because it is quite important and you know this event has been scrutinised for the past 30 years

down on the ground it was a different story. Despite the ban on marches many were keen to get out and protest not only internment but also the government's ban on marches themselves young and old alike were in attendance as the march left the Cregan area of the city in the early afternoon. They left thegan area of the city in the early afternoon.

They left the nationalist area of the city and moved into William Street. The plan was originally to end up at Guildhall Square with speeches to be heard from the bed of a flatbed truck that was at the front of the body of marchers. The security forces, i.e. the RUC and Army, did not want any clashes between marchers and loyalist groups and keen to avoid any unwarranted violence, they erected a barrier on William Street that is referred to as Barrier 14. The march was rerouted through William Street and the Rossville Flats towards Free Derry Corner, which that's the building with, you know, you are now entering Free Derry painted on it,

where the speeches would now be held. A section of the protesters split off to the march and headed further down William Street to face the army barrier. They threw stones and bricks at the and the army fired tear gas in return. Similar rioting broke out on Little James Street and Sackville Street at

army barriers 12 and 13. The army began to use rubber bullets and CS gas to subdue the crowd but once again the rioters began to throw the tear gas canisters back and then they deployed water cannons in order to disperse the crowds. So Joe, are you ready to be depressed? Oh, born ready. I've been preparing for this my whole life.

While this was happening, crowds gathered at Free Dairy Corner where Bernadette Devlin and the other speakers prepared to give speeches to the crowds of protesters. At the same time, the members of First Para were preparing to go over the barriers to conduct an arrest operation as they had been ordered by General Ford, commander of the land forces. First Para had been redeployed from their base near Belfast that morning ahead of expected disturbances in Derry. Colonel Derek Wilford, the CO of First Para, had briefed both First Para and Support Company the night before on their mission.

If rioting was to break out, they were to go over the barrier on a snatch-and-grab basis only, and to not engage demonstrators in a long-distance conflict. In and out with limited contact with the rioters and protesters was the name of the game. It's worth noting here that the names

of most of the soldiers involved in this operation have been legally obscured for security reasons quote-unquote security reasons um so they do so they don't get a so someone doesn't uh bring them to the uh finding out phase of fucking around yep yep um but it is likely that many of the soldiers involved would happen over the next 15 minutes would likely have been involved in Operation Demetrius, and there is a not insignificant likelihood that some of them were also involved in the Ballymurphy Massacre that had occurred six months later. So they're just a death squad? Yeah, pretty much.

It is also worth noting that at this time, the IRA, or more specifically, the Provisional IRA, mainly employed two tactics when engaging with the British Army in situations such as riots or are at least alleged to. Firstly and most commonly they used snipers positioned at strategic points such as the top of apartment buildings, in sympathisers or other members flats or from a vantage point far enough away from the army that they could easily get away or at least blend back into the crowd secondly gunmen armed with pistols or provisional ira members armed with improvised nail bombs will be concealed among the riders take the opportunities to take shots at soldiers or hurl nail bombs alongside other non-lethal missiles uh thrown at army barricades and possibly thrown by other rioters. This will become quite

relevant in a second. At around 355, two things happened almost simultaneously, which would change the course of history. First, two members of 1st Para who had their rifles trained on the rioting crowd in the waste ground in front of them spotted who they believed was about to throw a nail bomb.

Soldiers A and b fired their rifles damien donahue 15 and john johnson aged 55 fell to the ground damien who was their intended target was shot in the thigh and johnson was hit by shrapnel from the bullets fired at the former um and it's worth noting that the weapons that were carried by the soldiers this day were L1A1 self-loading rifles, so SLRs. A semiotic rifle which fires a 7.62 round with a muzzle velocity of 2,700 feet per second and a range of over 1600 feet in the context of what is about to happen a shot would travel at such speed with such impact if it was fired at you and hit the target you would almost die instantly yeah that's a it's a big bullet yeah a big bullet to be fired in a quite a close uh area that is instant death for you and anyone behind you. It's almost like battle rifles aren't for crowd control.

Weird. Second, either immediately before or immediately afterwards no one seems to agree the same soldiers received an incoming round that shattered a plastic drain pipe on the Presbyterian church behind them. They believed that it had come from the Rossville flats but likely came from Cullum Killick Court from which another soldier had been shot three months prior. Shortly after the drainpipe shot, Wilford ordered 1st Parrot to go into the bog site to conduct their snatch and grab not on foot, but in their armoured Saracen transport vehicles,

commonly referred to as pigs by the soldiers. At 7 minutes past 4, that's 4.07 for our American listeners, Brigadier McLennan gave the command for 1st Parrot to cross the barrier at Barrier 14 at William Street, but told Wilford and the other NCOs on the ground that there was to be no running battles down Rossville Street. At this point, most of the marchers had headed towards Free Derry Corner, only a few hundred metres away, and Wilford, according to himself, hoped to be able to sever the vein of rioters. Wilford did not just send

one company across the line, he also sent support company through Barrier 12 and Little James Street. As they crossed over, General Ford, whose decision it was to use First Para in the first place, was recorded by journalists on the scene saying over comms, go on First Para, go on first para go and

get them and good luck as the army vehicles crossed barrier 12 and proceeded down rosville street the crowd began to disperse and run away one vehicle carrying soldier n turned onto the waste ground around eden place the second carrying soldier o ended up in the car park in front of rosville flats after hitting two civilians alana burke and thomas harkin along the way so not only were they ran them over yep jesus christ uh what would happen next uh would spark the events to come after soldier n exited his saracen he found himself in the alleyway between eden place and Chamberlain Street. Feeling trapped by crowds, he fired two shots above their heads, which in future years he would say he did

as the only way that could stop them from attacking him and his fellow soldiers. But he likely did so as he saw it as a much more efficient way of sufficiently scaring the civilians into moving on. Right, of course. Once again, he's firing a 7.62 SLO round above the heads of civilians. In the middle of a city. Which violated the British Army's yellow card, which defined their, you know, terms of engagement with using their rifles in, you know, a quote-unquote peacekeeping operation. keeping operation.

So, with Derry's walls on one side and the high concrete of the Rosville flats in the front, the sound of these two shots echoed across the bog site in the echo chamber created by the walls of concrete. This is likely what led to the other soldiers to mistake soldier ends warning shots as live incoming rounds. Live incoming rounds

that would require a response. Some of the soldiers from the mortar platoon began to fire from their position in the Rossville car park. A local priest, Father Daly, and a young 17-year-old boy, Jackie Duddy,

were among those running for cover towards the flats. Daly was ahead of Duddy when he heard a shot ring out and the young man gasped for air. When he turned around, Jackie was already on the ground, face down. When the firing temporarily stopped, Father Daly ran back into the car park

to administer aid to Jackie, but he had already been turned over by another man and was bleeding extensively from his chest. Duddy, who attended the march with his friends and was looking forward to hearing Bernadette Devlin speak that day, was shot in the back as he was trying to run away. The bullet entered through his right shoulder, piercing his lungs, breaking his windpipe and exiting through his chest. With his breathing impaired and suffering from extensive bleeding, an autopsy would show that he would have died within minutes. As Jackie Duddy took his last breath, Father Daly, realising the boy was dying, administered the last rites and his body was soon carried by Daly and others past army lines and through the bogside. The footage of this taken by journalists remains one of the most upsetting

pieces of evidence of the injustice of the Troubles. At the same time Jackie Duddy was shot, Margaret Daly, aged 38, was shot in the same car park, although thankfully wounded, as were Michael Bridge, 25, and Michael Bradley, 22. Meanwhile, soldiers from the anti-tank platoon of 1st Para reached the ramp of Kell's Walk on the west side of Rossville Street. Around 80 yards in front of them, there was a barricade made out of rubble that the Bogsiders had placed in order

to stop the army going further into the area. When the anti-tank platoon reached the barricade, they immediately opened fire. Michael Kelly, 17, was shot shot mortally wounded and a group of protesters ran to carry his body away subsequent uh then the soldier shot and killed five more people around the rubble um hugh gilmore 17 william nash 19 john young 17 michael mcdade 20 and kevin mcelhenney 17 So they were trying to remove this body and just

immediately shot them. Jesus Christ. Oh wait, no Joe, this is the most appropriate use of it. It does get worse. I hate having that used against me. As William Nash laid there, his father, Alexander Nash, 52, went to tend to his son in his dying moments. As he

bent over the body of his son, he raised his left arm towards the soldiers to try and signal them to stop shooting. They shot him through his dying moments. As he bent over the body of his son, he raised his left arm towards the soldiers to try and signal them to stop shooting. They shot him through his raised arm. Jesus Christ. In the final moments of this shooting, four members of the anti-tank platoon split off from the Kell's Walk ramp and

began running towards Glen Fodder Park North, a courtyard of flats on the side of Rossville Street. As they entered the courtyard, civilians immediately began to run away to escape them. As soon as the four soldiers entered Glenfaller Park, they began to open fire on the crowd of civilians. They shot and killed William Kinney, 26,

and James Ray, 22, and wounded five others. James Ray, as subsequent inquiry would conclude, was shot twice, once while attempting to run away, and a second time while he lay on the ground dying. Among the soldiers who did the shooting in Glenfellow Park, one, Soldier G, went into the neighbouring courtyard of Abbey Park where he shot 35-year-old Gerard Kinney. Some witnesses said that he had his hands in the air and was shouting, don't shoot, don't shoot. He died almost instantly as the bullet passed through his body and also killed gerald donaghy shortly afterwards some soldiers who had been firing in glenfodder park and abbey park got to the bottom of bottom corner of glenfodder park

overlooking the back of the rossville flats soldier or soldiers or soldier as it is not clear how many were involved opened fire on four men who were between Rossville Flats and Joseph Place. The casualties included Patrick Doherty, who was mortally wounded. As he lay dying, he cried out for help, and Bernard McGuigan, who went out to help him, was shot in the head, dying instantly. Two other men, Patrick Campbell, 53,

and Daniel McGovern, 37, were wounded by the shots fired by the soldiers in the same area. It had only been 10 minutes since the army drove into the bogside to the shooting of these last few civilians. 13 people had been murdered and another 15 lay wounded. One more would die five months later and the wounds he suffered... They killed more than one person per minute. They killed and wounded more than one person per minute since rolling into the bogside.

Yep. So as the ambulances arrived and the dead and wounded were taken away from the area, the army were already telling their version of events to the world through the press that had originally come to cover the march. Colonel Wilford and General Ford were in front of the media within minutes

of the ending of the shooting and spinning their version of events. Wilford, although conceding that the death toll was high, he estimated around he estimated around five he steadfastly defended his soldiers saying estimated five he estimated five and he said that was high yeah oh my god he said his soldiers had been petrol bombed nail bombed and had acid thrown on him and had you haven't but they fucking hadn't been oh joe we're going to talk about that in a second um he had used the necessary amount of force to subdue what he called escalating violence of the

day a journalist asked wilford about uh about local residents saying first para had used excessive force on the bog side and he paused for a second and then said well what is force if you are fired at you return fire they understand that perfectly well it's like bill clinton after he gets dick sucked in the oval office asked like well it defines and what you mean by is you know it's like man fuck off you you fucking asshole it depends on what your definition of is is like uh okay we're doing this okay what is force bitch you know what force is you you have the fucking yellow cards that you give your soldiers that outline the the fucking the rules of engagement and the level of force that they're allowed they know what force is fuck him even more

importantly it was the they that he used in they understand that perfectly well he knew exactly what brush he was painting the demonstrators with yeah who is they in the situation the children or the priests that your soldiers murdered yeah yeah and like the for anyone who is interested there's like a lot of photos of this day and there's a lot of stories from people about this day and it's like you know when Patrick Daugherty and Bernard McGuigan were shot it's just

it's so cruel like when in the subsequent days one of Bernard McGuigan's teeth was found embedded in the wall of one of the flats because once again a 7.62 round fired at that speed and hit you in the head. There's not much left

to your head. Yep. So, by 5.30, all the soldiers who had been involved in the earlier shooting had been summoned by Major Loden, commander of support company, to a small command vehicle where they corroborated their stories and made sure that a certain version of events would

be represented the next day and for every day after that. That doesn't surprise me at all. A story of nail bombers, rogue gunmen and a company of soldiers besieged on all sides by terrorists and their sympathizers. Trained soldiers who had recently seen combat in Cyprus and Aden

afraid for their lives of teenagers armed with stones and bricks that were as lethal as their SLRs. By the following morning, each shooter had been interviewed by the Royal Academy Police on precisely what they did the previous day. Yeah, so that's grim.

Fucking Christ, man. That's fucking awful. Like, I didn't know that the Brits had their own night sense group, and well done, guys. Fucking psychopaths. I never seen one of these fucking people have been to prison. No. Of course not. None of them have even been named.

I would name them because some of their names are publicly out there but unfortunately I live in the UK and cannot afford a legal case. I don't want Johnny Mercer to shit his pants and try and sue me. Can you be held liable for naming them? Even though there's no legal case um i don't want johnny mercer to uh shit his pants and try and sue me can you can you be held liable for for naming them even even though that there's no argument that they are the people in this case yeah you can be sued for libel well to be fair you certainly can now since i

compared them to the ice and scroopin well i live in armenia come sue me motherfuckers yeah i'm sure you lie me fucks i'm sure the legal system on armenia would love to try a bloody sunday soldier versus a podcaster to be fair it'd be the one place in the world where irish people would actually get justice isn't armenia hey i irish people are the armenians of europe pretty much yeah um in the immediate aftermath burn that devil will return to westminster devlin who had been elected as an mp prior to the battle of bog site had become the de facto mouthpiece for the catholic community of dairy and by extension the wider northern iron northern tom for our listeners would you say that these people's names are easily google googleable um if you look up i

think if you put it's similar to everything if you just put bloody sunday soldiers reddit uh it will probably come up well there folks there you go that's not liable is it is that liable no no no um i'm just saying if you want to find any information in general, if you want a question answered, whether it's about podcast editing, about writing, about research, if you just add Reddit onto something in Google, you will generally find it. I'm not saying you'll certainly find a answer. We're not saying go look up these men's names. We're just saying that you could if you so choose. Yes, exactly. just saying that you could if you so choose yes exactly all in all in the interest of personal research devlin had become you know the de facto mouthpiece for the irish catholic community

in northern ireland and earlier in the day as she was on the back of the lorry some of the witnesses said that as soon as people began to rush towards the platform to escape the rubber bullets she told them to hold fast assuring the crowds that they outnumbered the soldiers 15 to 1 and to stay calm. As soon as the shots rang out from the SLRs, everyone hit the deck and the chaos we had just spoken about ensued. The following day, the Home Secretary, Reginald Moulding, addressed Parliament about the massacre that had happened the day before. He told the House that the Army had returned aimed shots in reaction to fire aimed at them. house that the army had returned aim shots in reaction to fire aimed at them devlin enraged tried to intervene but she was told she could speak after the minister had finished to which burn that devlin replied is it in order for the minister to lie to the house um bit of parliamentary

information it is um against parliamentary rules in the house of comm Commons to accuse another minister of lying. Really? It's an order of the house type shit. There was an ensuing back and forth between Devlin and Malding while with Devlin accusing Malding of lying and Malding and his party calling for order. As Devlin recalls,

what happened next is actually kind of funny. She walked down the steps and crossed the floor of the House of Commons and up to the opposing bench. Bear in mind, Burn the Devil is like 5'2". She grabbed Moulding by the throat and punched him in the mouth before walking out of the chamber, leaving MPs actually fighting in the benches behind her. Hell yes. When she was questioned outside the house by journalists,

she told them that she did not regret her actions and intended to repeat them she also she also added the official and provisional ira and this is a quote the official and provisional ira have each said that they will kill 13 paratroopers in vengeance for those who died on sunday that is 26 coffins coming home to england and i won't shed a single tear for any of them. I fucking love this person. Bernadette Devlin is a very complicated character. I'm going to say that I don't

know anything about her now. Actually, did you know that she did this? No, I didn't. One of the biggest kind of most outspoken people for civil rights and justice in Northern Ireland. She gets a little

bit weird as time goes on but I do think she has like both in this historical context and also in looking at the retrospectively of the movement of republicanism has like quite a lot of interesting stuff to say and she's a fantastic writer as well. You can grab

some of the stuff she's written. She gives very good lectures that are on youtube as well huh okay yeah she does like a lot of like college talks and that sort of thing um which are quite commonly recorded in ireland so it's just up on youtube um so time for more injustice um yeah very quickly an inquiry was called into the actions of first para on Bloody Sunday and this is a real British name Lord Widgery of course it sounds like

a character from Fraggle Rock Lord Widgery would sit alone and conduct what was called a thorough and complete investigation

into events the hearing began on the 21st of February and less than a month later on the 14th of March heary and less than a month later on the 14th of march he had heard the testimony of 114 witnesses this included 30 civilians 21 members of the media seven priests as well as pathologists doctors policemen and of course the soldiers so now we're going to talk about like why they can't be named um the soldiers in order to protect their identities

uh out of fear of provisional ira retribution were helicoptered in and entered the court wearing large sunglasses and testified under under a cipher um wearing large sunglasses and a floppy hat yeah like they can't you know can't have them wearing balaclavas might send the wrong they had a must they had the the sunglasses mustache uh uh nose combo uh given to them homer who is homer i am guy incognito um the order of the soldiers uh who shot earliest went sequentially ab A, B, C, etc. Bear in mind that the soldiers who entered Glen Fodder Park are E through H. If you are interested in researching that,

you can take that as you will. But it's information that you could use to discover things. Yeah. But the thing is, is that this was standard army practice at the time. This wasn't necessarily something

that was unique to the Bloody Sunday Inquiry. This was just army practice at the time. This wasn't necessarily something that was unique to the Bloody Sunday Inquiry. This was just standard practice of the British Army when, you know, their soldiers commit war crimes. Just to let them get away with it. On the 18th of April, Lord Widgery reported the Lord Widgery Report, or the

Widgery Inquiry, was published, and instantly inflamed the conflict in Northern Irelandireland firstly the report criticized the march organizers stating and i quote there would have been no deaths in londonderry on the 30th of january if those who organized the illegal march had not thereby created the highly dangerous situation in which a clash between demonstrators and security forces was inevitable this is is the British government version of you shouldn't have been dressed that way.

Secondly, once again quoting directly from the report, I had to read this thing for this episode. Subscribe on the Patreon so Joe can, you know, give me money for this. None of the deceased or wounded is proven to have been shot while handling a firearm or bomb some are wholly acquitted of complicity in such action but there is suspicion that some of the

others had been firing weapons or handling bombs over the course of the afternoon that others had been closely helping them widgry essentially tired all the victims with a brush of complicity and in turn cast out upon their victimhood. And so because one person possibly touched a bomb, despite the fact there's no evidence that bombs were used, that meant that all of them were were guilty. This is some judge dread shit. And it's worth noting that this is 1972. Ballistics research and forensics is not the high-tech thing that it is. And there is so much evidence in the subsequent inquiry after this that those tests were just complete bullshit. The detection of residue from bombs or gunpowder could have come from any of the multiple sources on that day. Possibly from being shot point blank by a rifle? Yep. Perhaps?

On the question of who fired first, Widgery concluded that he was entirely satisfied that the first firing in the courtyard was directed at the soldiers he continued in general the accounts given by the soldiers of their circumstances in which they fired and the reasons why they fired did so uh in my opinion did so were in my opinion truth based on what wanting it to be true oh joe that makes you mad, you're going to get so much more madder in a second. Damn it. One of the most painful and controversial paragraphs in the report, and this hurt to actually write, those accustomed to listening to witnesses could not fail to be impressed

by the demeanor of the soldiers of First Para. They gave their evidence with confidence and without hesitation or prevarication i actually have to ask my girlfriend what that word meant and withstood a rigorous cross-examination without contradicting themselves or each other with one or two exceptions i accept that they were telling the truth as they remember it so because they sat down for what two days and got their story straight, he's praising them for their ability to stick to the bit? Yeah.

Soldiers, not well known at all for backing each other up. Not at all, especially when you're all accomplices to the same fucking war crime. Jesus Christ. What happened at Widgery was, in retrospect, nothing more than a white-glove job, an official stamp on a record that held the government at no fault and that we should all just move on. The Northern Ireland Prime Minister, Brian Faulkner, faced a near civil war and demanded the UK government permit to rearm the RUC and reestablish the B specials.

So, you know, once again, our response is more cops. Yep. Hit the cop button. Get the B sharp spec on the case. Instead, the British Prime Minister, Edward Heath, ordered Stormont to relinquish control of the police in Northern Ireland

and place them under direct London control. Faulkner was outraged and blankly refused to find the government. Heath then took the decision in March 1972 to find the government. He then took the decision in March 1972 to suspend the Stormont government and rule Northern Ireland directly from London pending the

introduction of a new system of government. In the meantime, the Northern Ireland office, NIO, was established in London to govern the province. The UK government also abolished internment and gave all northern ireland people the right to a fair trial um how how fair those trials are yeah it's gonna vary most in the

union's community were astounded angry and outraged at what they were called a betrayal of ulster so you know these uh william of orange fuckers are just like no no how could these people that took us over treat us like imperial subjects i can't believe it um the terrorist group um the ulster defense force was formed to protect the protestant people so i mentioned it in the last episode um the uda are much more of a working class paramilitary group, whereas the UVF is much more connected to the Orange Lodge,

the political apparatus, the police state, whereas the UDA is much more similar to the provost in that it's much more grassroots. It's like let's get guns where we can, let's kill people, blah blah blah.

But, as history will tell us, the UDA also received much more lenient treatment than anyone else. The UDA and the UVA. Of course they did. While many Protestants supported the paramilitaries, many more would have nothing to do with them.

Many nationalists were pleased that Stormont had finally fallen, but continued the civil rights campaign. Although the Irish government welcomed the move and pleaded with the IRA to call for a ceasefire, the IRA regarded London rule as worse than Belfast rule and stepped up their campaign of murders and bombings. They announced that they would rid Ireland of the British even if they had to, quote, demolish

Belfast brick by brick. In 1972, 467 people were murdered in Northern Ireland. The situation got so bad that the UK government even agreed to negotiate with the IRA in 1972. The IRA called

a truce during the meetings. However, the IRA demands, giving Northern Ireland to the Irish Republic, were out during the meetings however the IRA demands giving Northern Ireland to the Irish Republic were out of the question to the UK government and they refused the IRA response was to detonate 26 no warning car bombs within 40 minutes in Belfast

on the 21st of July 1972 11 people were killed and 130 were injured the day is now known as bloody friday and this is something that will be relevant later in this episode and certainly in the next episode the final episode of this series is that um the ira generally would give a warning uh to the police in the uk before they detonated the bomb it It was usually about half an hour or 15 minutes and they would say

we're going to blow shit up. In March 1973 the British government announced the new way Northern Ireland would be governed. It would be an assembly where unionists and nationalists would share power. The leader of the Ulster Unionist Party, the UUP,

Faulkner, reluctantly agreed to the new arrangements although he said he would never share power with anyone whose objective was to break up the union that's a quote yeah you can't have a power sharing agreement when your political ideologies are literally diametrically opposed to one another like you can't what could you possibly work together to do argue that's what you could do just argue yeah it's like an oroboros of bureaucracy um many unionists left the party in protest and formed the vanguard unionist progressive party which was totally opposed to power sharing for them anything short of a return to storm it was unacceptable the elections were held in June 1973.

33% of the vote was for the vanguards, 29% for the pro-power sharing UUP. The rest of the vote went to pro-power sharing parties. After the elections, all the parties which supported the power sharing were consulted and agreed in November 1973 to the make-up of the overall governing executive of Northern Ireland. Although the number of nationalists was much higher than in Stormont, many nationalists still felt that unionists were over-representative in the executive. Before the executive could take over running Northern Ireland, the role that the Republic of Ireland was to play had to be defined. Representatives from Northern Ireland, the Republic of Ireland and London met at Sunningdale in Berkshire, England to discuss this. Anti-power sharing parties were not invited and this caused a lot of resentment in Northern Ireland.

After much heated discussion, a Council of Ireland was finally agreed which would work to improve relations between the two states. agreed which would work to improve relations between the two states. The UUP and the other delegates signed the Sunningdale Agreement on the 9th of December 1973. It appeared to please all sides at the talks and Faulkner believed he could persuade the Unionist people that it was a

good thing. The executive took over government in Northern Ireland on the 1st of January 1974. It is also worth noting that in 1974 the British government tried to close the matter of Bloody Sunday by offering a compensation settlement ranging between £250

to £16,500 to relatives of those who died. How the fuck did they rate who was worth what? Like yeah, we didn't really like your brother there so he's worth £250. Yeah, like the government stated that the payments had been given in the spirit of goodwill and conciliation but to the

families who wanted justice and the exoneration of their relatives this was you know unacceptable this is pretty much just a payoff yeah it's hush money if you accept this money we uh like we're not going to talk about this anymore because we'll consider the matter closed. Yeah. However, there were serious problems for the executive. There was a lot of disagreement between parties in the Assembly and the role of the Council of Ireland was not made clear. Additionally, paramilitary activity in Northern Ireland was ongoing. And although the police were controlled from London, the Northern Ireland executive got the blame. were controlled from London, the Northern Ireland executive got the blame. The anti-power-sharing unionists were outraged that the Republic was to have a say in Northern Ireland and demanded that the agreement be scrapped.

In March 1974 general election, anti-Sunningdale parties won 11 of the 12 Westminster seats. The head of the executive, Gerry Fitt, claimed that the people did not yet understand Sunningdale and pointed to opinion polls that still showed majority support for the agreement from both sides of the community. Despite the election results, no changes were made to the Sunningdale agreement or the executive. By now,

the anti-Sunningdale unionists realised that democratic means were not going to get their demands for abolition of the agreement. In 1974, the loyalist paramilitary groups and many of the anti-Sunningdale politicians joined the small Ulster Workers' Council. The council began to organise action against the government.

They warned the Assembly that if they refused to abolish Sunningdale, then they would hold a general strike. On the 14th of May, 1974, the assembly voted to ignore the UWC's demands and a general strike was called. Known as the general workers strike it was the worst economic event in Northern Ireland. Power stations were closed as workers left and as a result no other industry could operate either. Petrol workers went on strike, the province ran out of oil and soon cars became useless the strikers also blocked roads and travel became impossible security officers

shut our social security offices shut and it was impossible for people to get their unemployment benefit this on the whole you know since large portions of the irish catholic community were unemployed this was also kind of a bit targeted. Okay. Only a handful of businesses in the province remained open. After a week, the government began to realize how serious the situation was and began to attempt to get the workers to return to work. The strike, however, soon got the backing of most unionists. When the UK Prime Minister, Harold Wilson, launched a scathing attack on the strikers in a speech on 25th

of May, demanding to know who these people think they are, it served only to increase unionist resolve. Even the army were unable to break the strike. Strikes work, people. Yeah, especially if they're that thorough. Eventually, the executive agreed to delay the introduction

of the Council of Ireland but the UWC said it was too little too late and continued to strike. On the 27th of May the executive ordered the army to commandeer the petrol stations and oil facilities in Northern Ireland. The UWC response was to close every last business that had remained

open in Northern Ireland. The country became to, Northern Ireland came to a complete standstill and even food was a bit scarce. When Faulkner appealed in failure to the Secretary of State to negotiate with the strikers and were faced with economic ruin, all the

Unionist executive members resigned. The executive had collapsed and Northern Ireland was ruled again directly from London. On the 29th of May, the UWC called off their strikes in triumph. Well done. I mean, honestly.

Yeah. During the rest of the 1970s, the IRA campaign of paramilitary action and the loyalist responses continued. Between 1973 and 1980, 1,398 people were killed in shootings, sniper attacks, bombs, landmines and booby traps.

There were many attempts to bring about a settlement. A second IRA ceasefire collapsed in 1975 despite the efforts of various groups such as the Peace People. As the army became wise to the IRA, the paramilitaries were forced into being more and more secretive. wise the ira the paramilitaries were forced into being more and more secretive many of them went underground uh while others while others seeing violence as an unsatisfactory solution joined political parties most paramilitary prisoners at this time were held in the maze prison in southwest belfast and were classed by the british as special category let me guess so that means that they have no rights as afforded to normal prisoners oh um this like this is the end of the episode i'm gonna talk about met the maze prison and all this stuff in the next episode because it is important in the continuity of what's

to come next but uh in 1976 however the british announced plans to remove this special category so essentially you would not be classed as a political prisoner um and would instead treat them like any other criminal this meant that they had stricter rules had to wear their prison clothes many ira prisoners and a few others refused to wear prison clothes they sat in their cells with a blanket around them and refused to wash or clean their cells some some also spread their feces on the walls and urinated on the floor and their mattresses we love a good finger painting campaign it would become known as the dirty protest and that is where we're going to pick up next episode man another uh huge uh another name like the Trouble.

It's like, oh, it's the Dirty Protest. Oh, you mean like they didn't clean the rooms? Oh, they're spreading shit on the walls. I feel like we could come up with a better name for that. So, Joe, how do you feel? So this is what it feels like to be on the receiving end of this. Yeah. Thanks for that.

Yeah, it gets worse. Well, some worse worse some better in the next episode um but yeah like i i gotta be honest with uh anyone listening like writing that section about bloody sunday was like extremely hard and particularly like seeing like names and like how regardless of what age people are um something like that is a tragedy but like seeing how many like teenagers died yeah is just heartbreaking it's um it's one of those things it's uh whenever because these were these weren't um i mean and no excuse if they were anyway but these these weren't like conscripts who were thrust upon this heavily stressful

situation these were people who were supposed to be some of the best soldiers in the british military they were combat hardened they massacred fucking civilians uh twice in six months um because that is what they were sent there to do and if it wasn't if that's not what they were sent there to do. And if that's not why they were sent there, then they would have been held accountable, but they weren't. As someone from the outside looking in, the British got exactly what they wanted. They got roving death squads going through Northern Ireland. I can't really say that this is unique to Northern Ireland. I can't really say that this is unique to Northern Ireland

but it's also just the level of cruelty that the soldiers shown shooting people execution style on the ground as they're already laying dying. Soldier F and Soldier G essentially

taking the opportunity to shoot civilians in some of the testimonies. I read so much of Widry and of the subsequent Savile Inquiry for this episode. That's an unfortunate inquiry name. Yeah.

And the whistleblower 027, it has holes in it. It has its own problems problems but just the fact that so many uh people just like saw soldier f and soldier g break off and take the opportunity to just shoot civilians and like um it's a it's a question that a lot of people bring up with this is that you know oh these soldiers had seen like so much in the previous months and you know couldn't do anything it was the previous months so they carried out a different massacre yes that is correct yeah you know yeah get the fuck out of here yeah i mean in comparison to something we all something else we covered in the show is like

the the kent state shootings where the National Guard massacred college students where that was like a group thing they were I mean they weren't it's not like I'm saying it's both bad of course but like you had a group do this effectively all at once which can be easily explained by this

concept of this contagious shooting which is still very bad and they should all still be in prison but like in this one you had small groups of paras running around doing whatever the fuck they wanted on their own initiative like that is so much different and is so much worse because that means they there was no contagious shooting they didn't feel threatened because like you know even if you believe that they had bombs thrown at them at one point where they did have a shot fired at them in the very beginning that was 10 minutes before now you have these small groups of men off on their

own effectively hunting human beings completely independent from any control or any previous threats it's it's death squad shit that's that's all it can possibly be it can't be explained by any other psychology of uh of of shooting like this isn't contagious shooting this isn't like i feared for my life they're shooting children in the back you know yeah and an interesting thing is that with colonel wilford in between the intervening years between widgery and savel in the 90s essentially he kind of admitted that they made a mistake like he in that kind of philosophical way that he asked well what is force he also kind of he opened himself to the idea that something wrong had happened and then as soon as they announced

the savel inquiry he just doubled down on no we did nothing wrong of course he's he he was almost willing to acknowledge they got something wrong until it became official yeah and i think from my research it seems that it was more so that he saw it as relitigating his soldiers and like protecting those under his command than essentially admitting that they did something wrong that like the soldiers had already answered the questions they'd already stood you know not trial but they had stood in front of the widdery uh inquiry and you know said their piece and gave their evidence and that it should be you know done fucking ridiculous yeah yeah there's like for anyone who is interested in it there's like some there's a lot of so much material out there and like so much witness stuff uh witness statements

about it and it's if you want to learn more, there is more there. There's so much more there. And some of the stuff that I'll get into in the next episode is quite literally insane. How the British state dealt with the aftermath of Bloody Sunday as it went into the 70s and the 80s. Oh, lovely. Can't wait. Bet you're excited to hear about a guy who commits war crimes in Angola. How do I know? You know what? Sure, I bet Rhodesia pops up at some point.

I don't know. I'm trying to think of where these psychopaths would end up being at home. Apartheid, South Africa, Rhodesia, Angola, Mozambique, maybe. Liberia, maybe. Sierra Leone, yeah. Oh, Sierra Leone comes up. Don't worry. Of course. God damn it.

Sierra Leone. Yeah. Oh, Sierra Leone comes up. Don't worry. Of course. God damn it. Thanks very much for letting me just give you mental damage, Joe. I hope everybody really enjoyed me being on the other end of it.

It doesn't happen often, to be fair. Or I think this is the first time it's ever happened. But I hope everybody enjoyed it as much as I did. The episode, not the subject matter, I suppose. Yeah, I can give you a small comfort that this is probably the most depressing that this series is going to get. Ah, challenge accepted.

Yeah, we're going to start off the next episode with a bang. I hope everybody enjoys the next time Tom is on the show and he is my guest for the three-part series of the rwandan genocide so i can get him back for this um joe thanks uh once again for letting me host this series if you want to hear more history stuff from me i host a tattoo history podcast it's about the history of everything told through the history of tattooing called beneath the skin

um myself and my co-host dr matt lauder matza art historian we talk about like everything from uh inuk tattooing to weird freak shows of the 20th century and the 19th century and you know we're talking about video games we have an episode coming up about what's the reality like of actually running a tattoo business um but yeah um but yeah check us out you can find us on all streaming platforms you can find me online at god of that guy knees that's g o t uh i'll make sure i put it in the show notes yeah i just put it in the show no one can ever remember it whenever i say it on my own show so cool uh once again thanks very much, Joe. Everybody, thank you so much for listening. If you like what we do here,

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Leave us a review on whatever podcast platform you use, uh, because that is one of the reasons that we just won best history podcast. Uh, so, so yeah, like, uh, it helps through algorithmic based reasons. I don't fully understand, but once put in front of my face, I now know it's important. Uh, but again, Tom, thank you so much, everybody. We'll see you on part four.