Loremen Podcast - Loremen S5Ep44 - The Enfield Mysteries with Athena Kugblenu

Episode Date: August 15, 2024

Athena Kugblenu returns to the pod, for a journey through Enfield: the Croydon of North London and home to one of the world's most famous polterguys. But how is this London borough connected to a three-legged ape in Illinois? What kind of beast appears on the Enfield coat of arms? And is The Conjuring 2 a good film?* These, dear listener, are the Enfield mysteries. Athena's new book History's Most Epic Fibs is coming in Sept 2024: https://geni.us/HistorysMostEpicFibs *No, it's bad. This episode was edited by Joseph Burrows - Audio Editor. Come see us LIVE Again! https://www.angelcomedy.co.uk/event-detail/loremen-live-again-18th-aug-the-bill-murray-london-tickets-202408181730/ LoreBoys nether say die! Support the Loremen here (and get stuff): patreon.com/loremenpod ko-fi.com/loremen Check the sweet, sweet merch here... https://www.teepublic.com/stores/loremen-podcast?ref_id=24631 @loremenpod youtube.com/loremenpodcast www.instagram.com/loremenpod www.facebook.com/loremenpod Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to Lawmen, a podcast about local legends and obscure curiosities from days of yore. I'm Alistair Beckett King. And I'm James Shake Shaft. And James, this week we are rejoined by Deputy Law Person Athena Koblenu. Yes. We're going to ask some serious questions. What links the London Borough of Enfield to a three legged cryptid from Illinois? What kind of creature is that dog with kind of bird's legs on the Enfield crest?

And is that a willy? Is it? We just don't know. And once and for all, we will answer the big question. Is the Enfield poltergeist definitely actually real? Oh, I think that question has already been answered by the people that were involved. Well, let's wait and see. James Shakespeare, please join me around this small table.

You went all out of focus on the camera there, which made me, you suddenly sort of went like poof, like as though you're emerging for a mist. Yeah, that was a mystery, James. That's what mystery is. It's blurriness. Yeah. You put in the mist in mystery. Please come hither, come into my parlour and join me around this small wooden table.

Yes, we're back in the parllor. We're in the parlor. Hold my hand and with your other hand, hold my other hand. Is this always a table or is this occasionally a table? It is an occasionally an occasional table and the rest of the time it's just a normal table. Is it never a stool? Is that a real piece of furniture? It should be for me.

Stop derailing my seance, James. You're ruining the seance with your endless questions about tables. I'm sorry. The spirits will not come through if you keep cheeking me like this, James. Okay. I've been reading about seances recently. The beginning bit they called thrilling the table. Really?

Oh, well, thrill. In fact, I think I may have heard one of the spirits reacting to that quite good fact there. Since clearly, clearly one of the spirits is trying to come through. Join me, James, in asking, is there anybody there? Is there anybody there? Yes, I am here. Is there anybody there? Hello, it's the comedian Athina Koblenu. Hi. Oh, thank goodness. That was such a hard work. Sorry, I'm sorry for James ruining what I thought was going to be a fun bit.

I ruined it by not sounding ghostly. I don't think ghosts say, I'm here. There are no Estu English ghosts. You would be surprised. Ghosts can have all kinds of accents. They're not all, they're not all, you know, post Victorian gentlemen. You just get a text. Yeah. Rather than a theory or presence on the skies. I want it to sound like Kate Bush, but it just went out the window. Athena, welcome back to Lawmen. Deputy

law person, Athena Kibledu. Welcome back to the podcast. Thank you for having me. Now, you are from a place called Enfield. Is this correct? I am a migrant to a place called Enfield, but as we all know, it's not where you're from, it's where you're at. Oh. Yeah. So I guess I am an Enfieldian. It's a big enough bar for me to admit living here, so you can't find me.

If you find me, you must really hate me. You tried really hard. So it's not like Islington, which is tiny. I wouldn't tell no one if I lived in Islington. But you'd see me in the Au Bar One or something. I don't know enough about Enfield. I think of Enfield as being maybe the Croydon of North London. Is that fair? That's what I call it. I tell everyone because it is. Because I didn't know if that was accurate. I Googled the phrase to see if that was a saying and one person said it and got 900 retweets and I thought, that's close enough to being true.

900 retweets. And it wasn't me! It wasn't you, unless you have a pseudonym. Is that fair then? It's the Croydon of North London? No, no. So I always say it because nobody goes to Croydon unless they need to be there and nobody goes to Enfield unless you need to be here.

Hey, Croydon has a box park now. Yeah, well, there you go. And who goes to the box park? Like really? Like who actually, loads of people go probably, it's probably just me. I'm probably like, yeah, who goes to Alton Towers? Everyone, Athena. It's like a really cool thing. Like everyone does it. But so I'm sure box park is great.

Croydon and Alton Towers, the same, easily the same. But I just thought, you just sort of, if you're going past the box park on your way to So Welles, you go in to get an overpriced roll or something, or overpriced box of noodles. They serve you noodles in a bucket and they charge you more for it, but it's just noodles guys. They cost like 60p. Mason Harkness This is the entire economy of Croydon you're

threatening with this information. Emma Cunningham But Enfield, we don't even have a box park. Do you know what we've got? We've got an Iceland, and next door to the Iceland is a Lidl. But normally it's just one or the other. Enfield's so shit, you get both of them next to each other. So that's Enfield. James lives in Oxfordshire.

Is it all wait roses and budgins is where you are James? We're walkable to a wait rose. I bet you've got supermarkets we haven't even heard of. Like the fancy budgins, but even fancier than the fancy budgins. Oh wow. I bet you've got one called like G, J, G, Blithrens. I bet it's called. Yeah, G, A, G, Blithrens.

It's a bit of cardboard which says strawberries this way and then you go in and it's like a path to somebody's farm and that's the shop. Yeah. And the house is shop I've seen. Yeah. And the house is made of gingerbreads. Yeah. And the kids don't come back. So since you are in Enfield, not from Enfield, I thought you're currently in Enfield. Wow.

This is just going to be thrilling for our American listeners. Wow. She's really there. The Croydon of North London. They don't even know where Croydon is. I thought it would be good to talk about some Enfield mysteries, but I would like to start, if I may, because you're in Enfield, I thought it'd be a good opportunity to talk about some Enfield mysteries. I should start by saying that these mysteries might not all be completely

100% true, but you are no stranger to lies, Athena. That sounds like I'm really putting you on trial. You're right. I'm no stranger to lies. In fact, I'm so familiar with lies that I've written a book about them. What an extraordinary coincidence. It's incredible. It's almost as if this was planned in advance and you put it in my diary and he said, come on the podcast. Wow. I can't believe it just played out like this.

And the book is literally called, the title of the book is History's Most Epic Fibs. And it's about lies that people have told. And it's also about why the lies are told. It's about the motivations behind them. And then guess what? We also tell the truth. What a twist ending. Has that ruined the ending of the book or will I still enjoy it? No, you'll still enjoy it because there's jokes and pictures in it. I didn't draw the pictures, someone called Nicole Miles did. But yeah, it's all about lies, big lies and little lies. And it's international.

I've tried to find lies from around the globe because we're all on the internet. Great slogan for humanity there, yeah. The pitch document, I think, will one day be a famous document because it did get dialed down. What sort of level of lie are we? There's all levels. So one lie is women don't need pockets. Okay. We need pockets. Okay. But there's also like, I've got a lie in there about the guy who created racism. So he basically said people who look different are different because that was the lie. That's all it was. So that's in there. We've got the Loch Ness Monster.

We've got a fairy lie about them two little girls that for a laugh. So there was fairies in their garden and there wasn't and everyone believed it for 100 years. Oh, the Cottingleys. Yeah. And we've got a lie about the Tasate tribe. So somebody in the Philippines lied about some people in this forest. And he said they're primitive people.

Come take a look at them. And he, what they weren't primitive. He just found some people who were poor and put loincloths on them and paid them to look like they were cave people from thousands of years ago. And there's ones about Australia. Because apparently, if someone turned into cutting up to your house and said- Australia's real, I've been there. Exactly. Stop showing off, James. Oh, whatever. I suppose you went there. I suppose you traveled there around the round earth too, James. James Ruhfus Yeah. I bet you circumnavigated. Let me do the quite appropriate air quotes. Circumnavigated. There's round earth. Yeah. That's in there truly. Yeah.

Will Barron And what's the age range for this? Obviously, I assume it's 8 to 80. Alistair Dixon If you're 81, it will go way over your head, to be honest. Will Barron Yeah, to be honest, if you are 81, you'll probably be annoyed by the anti-colonial sentiments in the book. Alistair Dixon Yeah. Will Barron You probably shouldn't read it.

Not all elderly, Alistair. Well, that was just, I think, an incredibly well set up plug for a book. So I think we all did brilliantly there. Yeah, I think it was certainly seamless. And we might come across some fibs in the course of this episode. In fact, there's one very big, obvious fib, probable fib that relates to Enfield, which I'm sure most of the listeners are aware of.

But before we get to it, I've got a couple of sidebars for you of Enfield law. Now I know it's unconventional to start with a sidebar, but hey, call me a maverick. First of all, I want to clarify. We are not here talking about the Enfield monster from Enfield, Illinois. Oh, but since we're here, do you want to hear about the Enfield monster from Enfield, Illinois. Oh. Oh, but since we're here, do you want to hear about the Enfield Monster from Enfield, Illinois? I would like to hear about that. Yes, please. Well, in issue 10 of Anomaly Magazine from 1973, they have a feature on the Enfield Monster, which as far as I can tell, Anomaly Magazine doesn't seem to be like a proper magazine.

It's more like a zine. It seems to be photocopied clippings from different newspapers that they put together about various cryptids that were on the prowl in the seventies. One of them is a Snallygaster. There was a Snallygaster hunt in Carroll County, Maryland or Maryland. Have either of you heard of a Snallygaster before? I was going to say, I've heard of Merryland, but you said Snelligaster. Yeah, off of the wire. I've heard it off the cookie. And the cookies, yeah. Two great achievements really. Which Americans don't know about, by the way. Americans don't know about Merryland cookies.

Wow. Wow. Yeah, they're a totally English thing. Have they not been denied the truth long enough, you know, about where they come from and who they are? The cookie people. I think we need to liberate the Americans. You're one of us, guys. You're all of us. A snellygaster is, according to, I'm reading from The Clipping in that anomaly magazine,

is according to Webster's third new international dictionary, a mythical nocturnal creature half bird and half reptile chiefly reported in rural Maryland, which preys on children and poultry. Easy to confuse them. But its name might come from schnell-Gieche, meaning quick spirits in German, Germany, Pennsylvania Dutch. I thought it meant Good geese. What's the age range for children?

Are we talking like early years? Are you concerned about looking after yours? Is that what the cutoff is for being caught by a snallygaster? I just sort of think some people would say a 16 year old is a child and some people say that that person can go to war. And I think it's not like, and I think if you get eaten, if you're 16 and then you get eaten by that, then I suppose that's evidence that you shouldn't go to war with your child. On the other hand, it mainly goes for chickens, which are quite small. Oh, okay. Yeah, I think it's got to be, if it's, if the child is comparable to some sort of bird, then yeah, I think it is still a child. As the poem says, doesn't it?

When I was a child, I thought like a duck, I smelled like a duck, I sounded like a duck, I was a duck, and there were two sets of footprints on the sand. I may be misremembering toilet poems. I didn't even mean to talk about the Snellingaster. It also, the same page, features an account of the Enfield monster, which is of course from Illinois, not Maryland. It seems that anthropology student Lauren Coleman, age 25, was on the hunt. I'm going to read this in my closest approximation of an American newscaster's voice. Coleman said he decided to look for the creature today after talking with Rick Rainbow, news

director at radio station WWKI, Kamoko, Indiana, who with three companions said he saw an ape like creature near Enfield last Saturday. Rainbow tape recorded sounds, he said, were made by the creature. And James, would you like to provide some ape like noises, please? I don't actually have the recording. Huh? Hmm? Well, OK, I'll help you out. The sound on Rainbow's tape is similar to an elephant call, Coleman said.

He added he has heard the Siamang ape give such a call. I'm sorry, his name is Rick Rainbow, James. That's the real man's name, Rick Rainbow. Please take this seriously. I think what they're describing is the noise that the T-Rex makes at Jurassic Park, because that was a combination of lion, gorilla and elephant. And I've got to get my fingers ready for this to do it and do the sort of half turn. So imagine the banners fluttering down.

Yeah. James is stepping away from the mic and brilliantly recreating that scene from Jurassic Park. Really good. Yeah. That is quite... I listened to what the ape sounds like and that's quite similar. Bit deeper, but you are a deep bass baritone. They're quite high pitched. Apparently the creature was five to five and a half feet

tall, grey black in colour and he spotted it at the open end of an abandoned barn. But since then the reports of the Enfield Monster have had it a couple of feet taller and it's gained a third leg. Oh, oh hello. If a monster is five to five and a half foot, I'd be like, well that's my height, isn't it? So you're going to have to, I mean, that's, I could take that. I could pretty much handle, you know, that's not like a mismatch. It's like the child chicken ratio. If a child is the height of a chicken,

it's an under threat. If it's taller than a chicken, safe. Yeah. And obviously the third leg is obviously intriguing, but we'll say no more about that. We're not, of course, talking about the tri-podal. Is that the right word? I just made that up, but it sounded really scientific, didn't it? That means it's got three feet, but we're only sure that it's got three legs, right? That's true. Yeah. All right. I don't know what leg is in Latin or whatever. Legus.

No one knows. Yeah. Tri-legus. The tri-igus ape. We are talking about Enfield, a place in North London, the Croydon of North London. But Enfield has a cryptid of sorts of its own. Did you know this, Athena? No, I wasn't aware of this. Have you ever seen a sign in Enfield with a sort of red kind of dog creature on it? I mean, no. Have you ever seen the coat of arms for the London Borough of Enfield? Are you really in Enfield? I can't believe you haven't seen the

coat of arms for the London Borough of Enfield. Of course it has a coat of arms. This is what you pay your countertacks for. I was going to say it's probably on the envelope, but you know, it's not something I swear allegiance to. Like you can just live here, guy. You don't have to, you don't go to a town hall and get on your knees and say, I swear to only care about Enfield and only drink the water here or nowhere else. Whatever you do when you swear stuff. I'll be here. We came for the schools. We came for the schools, man. But there's a coat of arms for Enfield. I guess there is. I've just never sought them out. Yeah. Mason- There is. There is. Yes. And I can tell you now that that council tax money is,

pretty much all of it has been going towards the funding of mythical creatures in the borough of Enfield. Oh, as it should. Yes. Oh, it's in the chat of the riverside. Okay. So I'm seeing a couple of lions, a couple of dogs. Are they dogs? Ah ha ha. Great question. That is exactly exactly right... That is exactly the right question. They are neither dogs nor lions. There is a lion and there are two Enfields. The Enfield itself... By the way, we are now in Heraldry Corner. Oh! Yeah. The Enfield is, in Heraldry, a mythical beast. According to Jacqueline Ferns discovering

Heraldry, the Enfield is an extraordinary hybrid with a fox's head on a wolf's body, which sounds quite vague. Wow. And more importantly, it has the four legs. That just sounds like a fox that's been working out. Yeah. Like a fox that hasn't skipped hind leg day. But it has the four legs and talons over an eagle. Well, have you ever checked their front legs for eagle talons? Because they might be Enfields. I'll tell you something funny.

So we're really like, we're awful. We've got one of those cameras that you, you know, them Google cameras and we were on holiday and it points out to the back garden and we saw a fox and it was having a real like, real feast in the garden because we weren't there. And then we were like, what's it doing? Then we got back and we found just carcasses. Like just like just pigeon carcasses. Animal, I hope, not pigeon. Pigeons and feathers and guts.

Not children. Well, we didn't really investigate. Pendula size, I suppose. But that makes me wonder, was the fox a Enfield? It could have been an Enfield. It's exactly where you would expect to find them. We've got it on camera, guys. You might have documentary footage of a cryptid.

I think the Enfield would be happy to be on camera because this coat of arms seems, as far as I can tell, it seems to show an Enfield holding up a shield with a picture of itself on it. Yeah, yeah. It's like a selfie of you taking a selfie. It's like when you're there in the mirror in a selfie.

Also, if you're looking at the same picture of me, just, just reference back to that third leg thing. Some, some of it's going on. What can you, is it a tail? It's just, isn't it its tail? I think that's a tail, James. Come, come now. At the front? Yes, because, yes, because it's happy. It's wagging its tail. It is just pleased to see you, James. Don't worry. You see the kind of wavy thing, the green, blue, white wavy thing at the back. I would have taken

that off. I would have painted that and then I would have said that's too much. You know, it's the wrong color, isn't it? It's just all... I'm sure it must mean something, but embarrassingly I don't know. I bet it's meant to be a river of some kind, but I haven't done my research. Oh, the River Lee comes through. We've got the River Lee, which is not a river. Well, that makes sense. If that rubbish blue line does represent the river, then that makes sense because it is

quite rubbish here as well. I'm sorry, it's not about the new river. There's a part of the new river that goes through an area called Palmer's Green and there's a sign that seems quite new and it says, the New River, neither new or a river. I'm like, who paid for that? I mean, this is just, I mean, I'm sure we could have got a bus stop for that money. But instead, you've got a sign that says the new river is not new or river. And then tell us what it is. Don't tell us what it isn't.

Tell us what it is. Well, speaking of things that aren't what they are. Yes. What we've got here in the coat of arms is an escutcheon or shield, which has an Enfield rampant, which is the heraldic term for people as we, I think we've discussed on the podcast before, for when people or animals do the thriller move from the Michael Jackson thriller video, that is, when they're standing like that, that's rampant. And it also has an Enfield as a sinister supporter. And sinister, of course, means left, as we know. And the sinister supporter, of course, appears on, you're looking at it, which side of the shield? The right. Yeah, because it's left from the point of view of the shield. Boom! You're in heraldry town, James.

The rules don't apply here. That's the left side. It's just one of the weird and confusing things about heraldry. I found out while looking this up. Nice. The opposite side to sinister is of course called the Dexter. The Dexter. The Dexter. Yeah. Sinister versus Dexter. He doesn't know Sinister from his Dexter. I wouldn't know how to tell the difference. I don't know how I wouldn't have to teach my kids how to tell the difference. Like how do you, you know?

Well, if you hold your hand up and if it doesn't say. Yeah, I've got S on my left hand and D on my right hand. So I can easily remember. But then I have a little note saying, but if it's heraldry, it's the other way around because it's from their point of view. I have to turn my hands around like that. It's the Shields point of view. Yeah, it's from the Shields point of view.

There are so many rules. I thought they were just pictures. There are a lot of rules. So everything seems to mean something in heraldry. Jason Vale It's not a coat and there's no arms on it. Will Barron That's true. We are blowing this case wide open. Jason Vale Yeah, they should get a sign that says not a coat and no arms. Will Barron The origin of the Anfield might be the Onhw or Onshu,

which is an Irish beast of some kind. NJAJ.A. Williams calls it a fabulous water dog. I think he means that it belongs to fables, not that it looks terrific. Yeah, it might be a kind of water beast, a kind of leopard-like creature. I've read the descriptions and it sounds an awful lot like an otter, but that might be the origins. It appears in the clan symbol of the Oak Hellies over in Ireland. So it might have made its way to Enfield from Ireland. But that is the mythical beast of Enfield, the Enfield. I think it's time for us to move on to something really, really spooky. It's a very hot day when we're recording this.

Is it time to chill ourselves to the bone and deal with perhaps the most famous piece of folklore related to Enfield? I think so. I'm talking about to Enfield. I think so. I'm talking about the Enfield Poltergeist. Ah, the Poltergeist. What a guy. What a Poltergeist. So, Athena, you are in the firing line. You're right there in North London's Croydon.

On the scene, what can you tell us about the Enfield Poltergeist, aka Poltergeist? Well, I can tell you that the best bit of this story is that it involves two people called Margaret and Janet, which to me, no disrespect to Margaret or Janet's listening, but it's kind of like, if someone's going to see a Poltergeist, it'll be Janet. Janet saw a Poltergeist. Janet's always seen Poltergeists. Half of my family is called Margaret and Janet. However, a lot of activity. There's a lot of activity. I bet they're constantly going, where's my wallet? Oh, it's that poltergeist. It's just

like constant, where's the remote control, the poltergeist? They're just very poltergeist-y seeing names. I just feel like that's the correct thing to say. Janet and Margaret are sisters. Janet is 11 and Margaret is 13, which means Margaret is able to look after Janet and they all survive the night. It's like a reasonable babysitting age, I think. Yeah, too old to be eaten by a monster, I think. Yeah, bigger than a chicken.

Yeah, so they're safe from them, but they weren't safe from the poltergeist. And between, well, they weren't safe from the poltergeist, unless the poltergeist isn't real, unless they made it all up. But I've said too much already. Yeah, I mean, that is quite a big spoiler because they definitely made the order up. But I got to the 90s and fixed it all. But it was the 70s and in 77, which I think might be the year that the actual Poltergeist, is that, was it called, oh, The Exorcist. When did that come out? Yeah, I think that was 77.

Yeah, so then the same year the movie about The Exorcist, which was- 1973, apparently. Wow, was it that old? Anyway, 1977, their mom calls the police and she lives on a place called Green Street, which I know. I know very well. But not well enough to dock where you actually live. No, but because it's so far from where I live.

I don't know it that well. So, so far, miles away. But get this, Peggy's furniture moves. So Peggy is Janet and Margaret's mum and Peggy's furniture moves. So if my furniture moves, I don't know about you guys, but I'll just move it back to where it was. But Peggy was like, I'm going to call the police, which I would immediately call the police. I just feel like it's not it's weird, but it's not criminal. Like, it's not against the law for furniture to just move in.

But maybe I'm just really relaxed around ghosts. Like I'm very equal opportunities. I'm not going to snitch on a ghost. You know, I've heard about the brutality they face. I'm like, you know, but my pet, but, um, Peggy was a name Peggy. Peggy was like, no, I'm calling the police on these ghosts. So she calls the police and the police have to pick up the phone and hear this woman say, um, the furniture moved and her children heard sounds.

Now imagine the police get a phone call every time kids get up in the middle of the night and go, Oh, I heard something. I mean, it's just outrageous. Like the police would just be like, would just be like block. You're not allowed to call us again. They take out the number. Obviously the UK, the emergency number is nine. They would come to your house and they would remove the number nine from your phone. And they'd be like, we don't care if you have some fire. You're calling us because your children are complaining because they're in bed. Like, so I found that, that was for me, the funniest part of the story. They're calling the police because your children heard noises.

So she calls the police and a copper comes down, a police person comes down. He says he's, and I quote, this is, this is what he says. He says, I saw a chair wobble and slide, which is, it sounds like you've just made that up because it has to be one of the other really, doesn't it? It wobbles or it's like, I just think if it's, if you think of it as a chair, chairs don't wobble. Like in any, if you think about all the chairs you've got in your house, they can't, they're not jelly. They're just too solid.

I was imagining it sort of rattling. Kind of like if it's like a maybe, but maybe it's three, you know, when you get like uneven chairs, Yeah. But you were imagining it actually becoming gelified and undulating. The word wobble for me sounds like you're just, you would say rattle, wouldn't you? And slide is a weird one too. I just thought, I just thought if you're going to talk about things that chairs do that they're not supposed to do, you would say hover or rattle like you said, or shake. Anyway, so this policeman says that maybe he fancied Peggy and thought I'll just go along with it. And I should jump in and say, I think the police

officer was a WPC. I think it was a woman who they sent. I can't remember the name of this person, but that does not, yeah, it doesn't preclude her fancying Peggy does not rule it out. This is 1977. You're an Enfield. Anything can happen. But bizarrely enough, the report of that police officer or police constable was, because it's PC over here, all PC gone mad, as they like to say, was enough to kind of, I guess, lend a bit of integrity to Peggy's ludicrous waste of police time. And after that, I don't, this is what I can't work out. Even though it is ludicrous, so many people reported strange happenings at this address after that. I don't, this is what I can't work out. Even though it is ludicrous, so many people reported strained happenings at this address after that.

Like lots of people and all consistent. You've got a list of them and it was all furniture. Almost all of them are called Morris, which is really confusing. Graham Morris, a photographer for the Daily Mirror went around. Morris Gross or Maurice, I think Americans might say, but I think it is Morris Gross from the Society for Psychical Research and the Ghost Club. I've spent a lot of time there. The original The Ghost Club? I believe the original, yes. Rosalind or Ros Morris from the BBC went around. And

unfortunately, Guy Lyon Playfair, whose name is not Maurice. No, but it's got a Lyon in it. It has got a Lyon in there. And he wrote a book called This House is Haunted, which was very famous and tells the story in a sort of prose form. has got a lion in there. And he wrote a book called This House is Haunted, which was very famous and tells the story in a sort of prose form. Sounds a bit like something you were like in the Coliseum before like the bout would begin. You'd get the gladiator, you'd get the lion, you'd be like, guy, lion, play fair. And then bring it on. Nice, clean, savaging. Thank you. Yeah. But the other thing is, these are not poltergeist names. They're not like Janet and

Margaret. These people generally don't see... Maurice doesn't see poltergeists. Maurice has a great time on the weekend. What did you do this weekend? Oh, mate, I was having a great time. So that's the one thing that I think lends credulity to the story. The people who backed it up have non-poltergeist names, which is a thing. Will Barron There's a nice little bit of the start of Playfair's book where he defines poltergeist. He says, I can tell you what the word means. It means noisy ghost from the German poltern, to make a lot of noise, and geist ghost. By the way, the Germans don't use the word nowadays. They call it ein Spuk. S-P-U-K, ein Spuk.

And in his book, he describes various investigations, including some of the Morris's we've been talking about and Annie Shaw, the psychic medium and her husband George who, and I didn't know this as far as I can tell, invented goes of the Gozerian from Ghostbusters. What? This is the origin of goes of the Gozerian. Did you know that? Is it true? No. Have you heard this? No.

Annie Shaw, in a psychic trance in the house, trying to make contact with the Poltergeist that was so troubling the family, the Hodgson family, says in her trance voice, says, Gozer, Gozer, help me. Elvie, come here. And then her husband George explains, this Gozer is a nasty piece of work, George added, a sort of black magic chap. The other one, Elvie is an elemental. She's using the elemental and gozer is using her. He's the boss. If we get her out of the way, the whole setup will fall apart. And Playfair explains, an elemental to spiritualists is a low form of spirit used by the smarter ones to do the dirty work. So as people come in, they find lots of different ghosts, sometimes speaking

through mediums like Annie, but most frighteningly of all, speaking through Janet, the girl. And this is the bit that I find chilling, because I think this is totally made up. I think the throwing of objects, the moving of things, it's people fooling themselves, it's the kids And this is the bit that I find chilling, because I think this is totally made up. I think the throwing of objects, the moving of things, it's people fooling themselves, it's the kids laughing about and doing pranks. But have you heard the recordings of various people interviewing the ghost through Janet? Bill Wilkins. Have you heard the voice that she does when she is channeling the ghost? Yes, I listened to it the other day as I was waiting for my kids to fall asleep. Is it that thing where they, they go, ah, and they sound like really grisly?

It's so like, I can try and do it. He speaks like an old Cockney geezer, but right, I can do this for like a minute. And then my voice hurts. And this, this kid, this girl is able to… I sat down in a chair. He talks like that. Genuinely, I think this is the reason people believe it, because that is a very spooky voice. It's incomprehensible that a child could be producing that voice. Oh, I don't know. I live with two of them. Obviously, that is what actually happened. But it seems incomprehensible. There is a

picture of her levitating as well. Exactly. And they said she's jumping, but it looks levitating. It just feels, in those days, it's got a levitating vibe, you think. It's not like you've got a Samsung S22 and you can do slow-mo and screen grab. In those days, it was like a 35mm Kodak and it was just luck of the draw. Developing was expensive in the eighties and the nineties. I can't even imagine what it cost to develop your film in 1977. Do you think she would have got one of them stickers on it saying, like, it looks like you've taken a picture of a haunted child. Yeah.

You have to take pictures of the living. The dead don't photograph well. They can't focus. But that for me was interesting. And I think that's the thing about hauntings. What happens is people take advantage of them, for profit and money and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But also that doesn't mean the haunting isn't there. They just exaggerate the haunting. It doesn't mean there isn't something spooky going on. Will Barron Which is exactly the argument that Playfair and Morris Gross end up making, which is that,

yeah, okay, they faked it a little bit, but they just faked it around the actual supernatural, unexplained stuff. But speaking of obvious liars, Ed and Lorraine Warren went there. Have you seen The Conjuring 2, James and Athena? Well. The second film in James Wan's Conjuring series. I did start to watch it and it was when the Tim Spall version had just been on where Tim Spall played Maurice Grosz. Yes. So this is quite a famous case. There is a Sky version of it with Timothy Spall. There's a new version of it now on Apple TV. And there's a play on the West End of

London's glittering West End now. And The Countrying 2 is by far the worst version. I haven't seen the others. It's so bad. It's a terrible film. Even his sideburns look terrible. Ed and Lorraine Warren, the film versions of them are so much more likeable than the real versions of them.

He's an appalling creep. There is an incredible, incredible video on YouTube of Ed Warren, the psychic investigator, claiming that he found a leprechaun's hat on St. Patrick's Day. And I feel like I must have mentioned it on the podcast before, because you can see him put out what is obviously a small plastic hat and insist that it's an actual hat belonging to a leprechaun. And he says, you know, it looks like a bottle cap, but there were no bottles around. Oh, yeah. So it must be a leprechaun's hat then. You fraud, you appalling fraud. So there's lots of activity goes on and lots of claims are made. I think what's weird about it is it's such a mixture of plausible and implausible. Like there's a lot of stuff

which just sounds like the kids are throwing things, the kids are caught faking things on a few occasions. Banging the roof ceiling with the broom and stuff. Yeah, banging the roof, bending spoons, I think. When you listen to the recordings, the voice is incredibly convincing, but it talks kind of like a child doing an impression of a ghost. Like Bill Wilkins, the main ghost who she contacts though, she makes contact with many over the course of the many interviews, has a dog called Gober the Ghost. I just don't think you would. Gober the Ghost, you're a 72 year old man, Bill. Have some self-respect.

Maybe you got the ghost once he became, maybe you got the ghost dog once he became the ghost. Well, I must have, because it would be a weird name for a living dog. Yeah, maybe the ghost, I don't have an explanation for that, but what I do know is that if I was a ghost, but I didn't want people to know I was a ghost, I would change my voice to sound like a child, that sounds like a ghost. So we started saying, that's what I came in, like, I'm a ghost right now. Right. And I said, hello, I'm here. Just so you wouldn't know I'm a ghost.

Right. So that is what we do. That's how it works. You know, there was one bit of the recording I listened to where he had some right sass on him and a lot of, a lot of rude words in the recordings that I think a child should not be using. I think the person interviewing says like, Oh, why can't I see? He goes, cause I'm invisible.

And he goes, why are you invisible? He goes, cause I'm a G H O S T. It's like, whoa, that is exactly how a child is sassing. Yeah. It's like when you don't want the dog to know you're taking it for a walk. Or when you don't want the dog to know that you're a ghost. Some weird bits. Yeah.

I found a similar bit where she, or the ghost is being asked why she's chosen to haunt that place. And essentially she says, or Bill says that he lived there. But there's just a phrase, and I can't work out, it's grainy, hissy tape, and it's very old. So, I think what's being said is that she's talking about a place right near the church where Rena lives. And all my friends come from there as well. And we all make a game and go to the pub. Which I think is like a child's idea of what an old 72 year old man is like. Yeah, me and all my friends live here and we all go to the pub. Well, I can read another quote from him,

which is him being a bit more aggressive, but we're going to have to bleep this because I'm afraid he uses some ripe language. Just as they're getting close to finding out the truth about Bill, he's being interrogated by Rose on this occasion, which might be Rosalind. I'm not sure. Not sure. Sorry. Just as he's being interrogated, he interrupts his questionnaire saying, you f***ing old b***h, shut up, I want some jazz music. Now go and get me some, or I'll go barmy. Which, because the thing about the 70s is it's hard to tell if that is old fashioned or not, or whether get me some jazz music or I'll go barmy is something a child would say in the seventies.

It's very hard to judge whether that's a child's idea of something old fashioned or whether that's really old fashioned. What do old people like jazz music? But did old people like jazz music in the seventies? Because he would have been presumably born around 1900. Yeah. Yeah. So that would mean he was in his twenties,, 30s when jazz first came over here.

Oh, a proper swing. He would be into disco. Silly. He was in, they went to the Bee Gees and ABBA. Where's my water loo? All my friends like ABBA. We put a record on and out of the pub. It's overly aggressive, but all a lie. But either way, it's unacceptable.

It is unacceptable one way or the other, you're right. Well, I feel like, Athena, you're leaning towards believing that this is a real case of spookums. If we don't have this, we got nothing. All right. So You got that dog with the clothes. You got, I mean, the Enfield monster could visit with three of his legs. I can't come here and be like, oh, it's a sham because then what, what, what will people come to Enfield for me? No, they come for me. I don't live here. Honestly. No, nowhere near green street. You'll never find me. I think it's a lie.

honestly. No, it's nowhere near Green Street. You'll never find me. I think it's a lie. But there are some inexplicable phenomena. There was an inexplicable phenomena happening at the time during the time this case was live. And I think that that cannot be denied. And there were things there were no explanation for, and we should acknowledge that something happened. And I don't know what it was, but it was spooky. And reading about it in preparation, it reminds me of the Jeff the Talking Mongoose story we covered on this podcast with Piano Veli ages ago, because it's probably a fraud. It's probably being perpetrated by one girl who we know is probably faking it. And yet there are lots of things that are hard to explain if it's just that. So maybe it's several people

working together. Maybe it's several people unwittingly working together to sort of create a story or somehow, you know, unwittingly collaborating. Here's what Joe Nickel of the Skeptical Enquirer says in conclusion, as a magician experienced in the dynamics of trickery, I have carefully examined Playfair's lengthy account, bit of a stank on the word lengthy there, I think, lengthy account of the disturbances in Enfield and I've concluded that they are best explained as children's pranks. Interviewed by the London Daily Mail, Janet at age 45 living in Essex with her husband, a retired milkman.

I don't know why he mentions that, except to add verisimilitude. Janet admitted that she and her sister had faked some of the phenomena. I'd say 2% she admitted. The evidence suggests that this figure is closer to 100%. Although, Nicol acknowledges that maybe people were fooling themselves rather than just being fooled. But Athena, you are the expert in lies and fakes and fibs. If you say it's a ghost, it's a ghost.

It's a ghost. It's a G-H-O-S-T. It's funny that you say that's a ghost, it's a ghost. It's a ghost. It's a G-H-O-S-T. It's funny that you say that because Graham Morris, the Daily Mirror photographer off of one of the Morris's from before, spoke to The Independent in 2023 about this. He has his own, I think, unique explanation for what was happening. Obviously, what we've done here is quite a superficial skimming of the vast, vast amount of what you might call evidence. But Morris's explanation for it is that something was happening around Janet that can't be explained.

Which is, now that I think about it, not that good an explanation. But he doesn't think it was a poltergeist, he doesn't think it was a spirit. His explanation is that she has somehow harnessed telekinetic powers or some force which we currently don't have a scientific explanation for and that those forces were kind of swirling around Janet, which is kind of a semi-skeptical explanation for it. All right, James, are you ready to score this? Oh yeah, I reckon so. Okay, I think I suggest the first category we should go with probably supernatural.

James, what do you say? Come on. Oh, well, it depends which way you go with it. Are you going to go with the nearer to 2% or the much nearer to 100% explanation? Well, I mean, we have Athena who is our resident fib expert and she said that this was a real ghost. And we have Athena who is our resident fib expert and she said that this was a real ghost. So in which case it's got to be five for G H O S T. One for each letter. Yes. Straight in with a five.

You didn't even need to pitch you the Enfield monster with its legs and the guy with the claws. Yeah. The leprechaun hat. Wow. I don't think we've ever achieved a five so quickly. Wasn't expecting it. A ghost is a claws. Yeah. The leprechaun hat. Wow. I don't think we've ever achieved a five so quickly. Wasn't expecting it. A ghost is a ghost, mate.

Do you know what I mean? It's a ghost. Yep. Second category. I think we should go for names. What do you say? Oh yeah. There is, I mean, Guy, Lion, Playfair.

Lovely. We've got a lot of Morris's. We've got at least three Morris's. Joe Nickel. You didn't mention Milburn Christopher, whose name is on backwards. Oh. Playfair, lovely. We've got a lot of Morris's. We've got at least three Morris's. Joe Nickel. You didn't mention Milburn Christopher, whose name is on backwards. You've got Janet, Margaret, Peggy.

Lovely. I just, just browsing the Wiki. What was the name of the dog? Gober the Ghost. Gober the Ghost. And the very similar Goza. And Elvie. Guys, look, this is a British mystery.

Listen to those names. This is like, we should be proud. As you were saying those names, I could hear God Save the King just in the background. And well done for updating that to the currently sitting monarch, because I still call it God Save the Queen. The Snallygaster, James. The Snallygaster, yeah, all right. Rick Rainbow of WWKI.

I like Rick Rainbow. I love the name Rick Rainbow. Is it his real name? I suspect not, now that you ask, but as far as I know, yes. His mum was Mrs. Sunshine and his dad was just normal rain. I think it is high. I think it's also a five because there are some lovely names and it's really strong. I don't think I could argue it down to be honest.

I think it is a five. It's Janet. I mean, this is Janet. The minute Janet was involved, it was a no-brainer. Jason Vale Janet, Maggie, Peggy. Jason Vale Yeah, they're all names from photographs, from family photographs in my family. Like if you, any family photograph, yes, every photograph has a Janet, a Maggie and a Peggy all sitting around in one of those working men's clubs that you were

talking about on the day women were allowed in. Jason Vale Playing a game. Jason Vale Once a year. Yeah, probably playing a game with their friends. Yeah. Emma Cunningham It's so funny. You fight to go to these places and you go, oh, it smells of fart in here and you leave. Jason Vale Yeah, but in those days, it smelled of tobacco so nobody could smell the underlying farts. It was only once they banned smoking indoors we realized pubs really smell very bad. Oh, this isn't nice.

smell very bad. Oh, this isn't nice. For the third category, I would submit what a dog. What, what a dog slash water dog. Because on the one hand, we've got the, the Enchoo, the fabulous water dog. We've got its descendant, the Enfield and what, what a dog is kind of what you guys said when I showed you the shield. You were like, and of course we've got Gooby, Gober the ghost, who is a dog, Gober the ghost, the dog, and goes with the goes area and has dogs. Doesn't it? It does have two big dog statue things. Tag, I got so many dogs. You'd think I lived in Barking. Oh, lovely stuff.

And that's the end of the podcast. We just have lovely stuff. And that's the end of the podcast. We just have the klaxon. That's the end of all podcasts. Yeah. I did the wrong klaxon noise. I did the error noise from Family Fortunes by mistake. Both apply because no one, there's a London bar of Barking for those who didn't. Yeah. Yes. We once saw someone with really tall hair going to Hibernit.

Oh, yeah. Yes. We once saw someone with really tall hair going to Hibernit. Oh, yeah. Did you put it on Instagram real? Unfortunately, I didn't. No, I don't photograph strangers on public transport. I just remember things that I see and then say it in stand-up comedy, which is fine and completely ethical. So that's a lot of dogs there, James. You'd be barking to give us a low score. I'm not going to give you a low score, but it's not five because the main thing is a poltergeist, which is as we know German for noisy goose. Einspuk.

Einspuk. Yeah, not a good boy. So it's going to be A, how many dogs we've got? We've got the one on the coat of arms. No, we've got two on the coat of arms. We've got the, yeah, we've got two on the coat of arms. We've got the, the, the GHOST dog. Yeah.

And is there one more? There's the, on Hugh, which is the, the Irish antecedent. That's the same one as the one I wrote. Well, it's got a different name, hasn't it, James? And it might be an off. N4. Oh wow. Okay.

That's, that's better than I was expecting. It might be an author. Wait a minute. I didn't hear that bit. No, neither did I. I don't think I said that. Thank you for rendering your verdict. Final category. I've gone back and forth on what this one ought to be. I think the final category, please get ready with the bleeps. You know, shut up. I want some music. What a tirade. That four letter tirade, mostly four letters, is going to be a four number score. Will Barron Oh, how any of this will make sense once

bleeped. Jason Vale So yes, it's four. It's a rude four. Will Barron A very rude four. Well, thank you very much. And thank you, Athena, for bringing us one of the rudest and most unpleasant ghosts I've ever heard of. I didn't think it would go here. I just thought a haunted council house, how are you going to get a chat out of this? But that's what I had at the time. I didn't really have anything else, but I'm really pleased it's turned out this way. One more plug for History's most epic fibs. Go.

History's Most Epic Fibs is a book about history's most epic fibs. And you can pre-order it or go to a bookstore and buy it from the 12th of September. However, I would pre-order it and get it sent to you. Then you'll have to leave your house. I will forget that I will pre-order books. And then I get these books. And I think I have no money because of this thing that I do. I keep buying books. So please buy my book so I can get, mate, buy more books. It's a good book too. Brilliant. Thank you very much, Athena. Thank you guys.

There you have it. Ghosts real. We finally decided. Ghosts are real. Glad we got to the bottom of that. Thank you very much, Athena. Please buy her book if you like cool, funny and factual things. I do. I do. I do. I'm going to buy it. I was talking to the listener there, but you go ahead, James. Well, I'm going to do it as well, because I'm also listening. I think we're going to need a record scratch for this outro, James. Go ahead. Oh, also listener, come see us live this weekend.

You've got not much time to do it on the 18th of August, 2024. 2024. At 5.30pm at the Bill Murray Pub in London's Angel, England, UK, so on. We're doing a live gig. It'll be really fun if you could come or watch it on a live stream probably. Don't do that. Come. Yeah, that would be better. Unless it's really far. Yeah, be reasonable.

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And otherwise, thanks for listening. Thanks to all the people who already do support us on patreon.com forward slash law of my pod. And thank you very much to Joe for editing this episode. See you next week for more fun. Also check out the YouTube for a video version of this. There's so many things. Record unscratch.

Eeehrooo. Sounds like a doggy. Alistair, I just want you to know I do do my own research. On the YouTube. I did some research for this and I instantly put myself off and distracted myself because I misspelled Enfield Poltergeist as Enfield Loltergeist. And it really was, wasn't it? It really was.

Well, it was more maybe an Enfield wry smile to Geist at points. And sometimes maybe an Enfield good point to Geist. Not actually funny, but interesting to Geist. No one's used it on the internet, as far as I can see. Loltergeist. We could have called the podcast Loltergeist. That would have taken even longer to explain than lawmen.

The LoL to guys. It's like Ghostbusters 2, but funny. Oh, that was a burn wasn't it? Ghostbusters 2 is funny. It's just really badly paced. That's my opinion. That sort of comment would have got the slime bubbling in the little pot. Well, every scene is too loose and goes on for several minutes too long. Fair enough. Speaking of things going on a bit too long. Yep.