Loremen Podcast - Loremen S5Ep45 - Saints Alive with Amy Jeffs

Episode Date: August 22, 2024

Saints alive! Amy Jeffs returns to the pod, and she's brought a bunch of kooky saints with her. We're talking adorable otters, vengeful ghosts and a guy with a load of forks in his beard. (Maybe...) An alternative telling of St Edmund's legend (and many more) can be found in Amy's upcoming book: Saints: A new legendary of heroes, humans and magic. Come see us LIVE in spooky West Norwood Cemetery on Friday 11th October 2024 (2024): https://choose-se27-comedy-festival.designmynight.com/66968247e76bce06372992c8/loremen-podcast-live-recording This episode was edited by Joseph Burrows - Audio Editor. LoreBoys nether say die! Support the Loremen here (and get stuff): patreon.com/loremenpod ko-fi.com/loremen Check the sweet, sweet merch here... https://www.teepublic.com/stores/loremen-podcast?ref_id=24631 @loremenpod youtube.com/loremenpodcast www.instagram.com/loremenpod www.facebook.com/loremenpod Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Summer's here, and you can now get almost anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. What do we mean by almost? You can't get a Well Groom lawn delivered, but you can get chicken Parmesan delivered. Sunshine? No. Some wine? Yes. Get almost almost anything delivered with Uber Eats. Order now.

Alcohol in select markets. See app for details. Welcome to Lawmen, a podcast about local legends and obscure curiosities from days of yore. I'm James Shake Shaft. And I'm Alistair Beckett King. And boy oh boy Alistair, have we got a treat for us today. We've got a treat for us. We've got a treat for us because we're so excited for us. We've got a returning Deputy Guest Law person in the format of author Amy Jeffs.

An excellent format in my opinion. It is. She's got another book coming out called Saints. Unreasonable. That's a lot of books. That's, that is a lot of books. She's going to overtake you. And she does her own pictures. This isn't about my lack of talent. No, this is about a very peculiar bunch of saints.

Although actually, they're kind of standard for saints. Psst. Alistair, you might have noticed we've got a guest this week. I have noticed. Because we've just been chatting to her. Yeah, for quite a bit. It's returning guest, or guest deputy law person deputy law person, author, Amy Jeffs. Hello, Amy. Hello, Amy. Hello.

It's so good to continue this conversation. Welcome back to the podcast. How are you doing? Really well, thank you. Yeah, very well. I've got myself a little glass of rose to sort of waken up my sense of humor because you guys, you set the bar high, so I'm here. I went with a cup of tea with the bag still in it.

Outrageous, James. I know, and it's like, and it's past 8 p.m. at night, so I am not getting to sleep before 11.45. Oh, you are tearing it up there, James. I'm not gonna drink any of this wine because the glass is a bit too long and there's not enough wine in it. And in order to drink it, I'll have to tip my head right back and I'll be self-conscious.

Will Barron Like a muppet. Sarah Hickman Yeah, it's more of a holding wine than a drinking wine. Sarah Hickman I'm just looking at it. It's making me feel reckless. Will Barron Good. That is exactly the tone we've been going for on Lawmen. And I don't think we've ever achieved dangerous recklessness at any point. We're about 12 years in now and I don't think we've ever achieved dangerous recklessness at any point. We're about 12 years in now, and I don't think we've ever recorded a reckless episode. Sorry, did you not hear me say about leaving the bag in the tea? Oh, sorry, I forgot that you were leaving the bag in the tea. It's going to be so full of tannin by the time it reaches you.

You're going to be like old leather. You'll be a bog man by the time we finish. Yes. Yes. Actually tantalised by your own teabag. Have we talked about the bog man on this before and how they're not actually redheaded? They look red. The bog bleaches their hair to a red shade rather than they are actually, well, we're actually all redheaded bog people.

So it's just the Pete, is it? It's just Pete. It's just Pete. Yeah, just Pete. That the Pete, is it? It's just Pete. Yeah, just Pete. That's not a bog man, that's just Pete. It's basically a very, very long, slow, ultimate henna. Ultimate henna. When you see the bog man, they look so relaxed. They do.

That's why I need just a really long nap in a bog. Or people will be like, oh, his hair wasn't actually red. And you'll be like, what? My only hook as a person. No. I used to tan rabbit skins in oak bark when I was young and fancy free. You did? This, I thought you were coming in with like, Oh, in the olden days, because I'm a historian.

No, when I was young, in the middle ages, we used to tan rabbits. In oak bark. I don't even understand. Because oak is full of tannin. It's very high in tannin, especially the bark. And so, if you chop up lots of oak bark and put it into boiling water, it makes a really strong brew. It doesn't, it's not very very tasty. I used to do that. Then once my boyfriend, then husband, called me up and said, I'm cycling home and I've seen a dead fox. Should I put it in my rucksack and bring it back for us to tan? I was like, that sounds like a great idea. I saw him cycling down the road and I didn't realize this fox had rigor mortis. He'd

put it in his rucksack and the brush was just like sticking up like a flag out the back of his rucksack. It's the rucksack and it was... Like in The Goonies where they have the raccoon tail off the BMX. I guess, you know. But very, very English version. I can't help the picture of the Fox fixed in that cartoon character who's just jumped through a wall pose. I think a lot of us would have drawn the line at, shall I bring this dead fox home? So you know, fair play to you.

Have you moved on into serial killing or has it stopped there? I couldn't possibly comment. I can't speak anymore. I couldn't possibly. You got her on the ropes there, James. She sounds nervous. I couldn't possibly comment. I can't speak anymore. I couldn't possibly. You got her on the rubs there, James. She sounds nervous. I'm not hearing a no. Have we pivoted into the jinx? Spoiler alert. Yeah, I think so. Most true crime podcasts wait until after the crime has been committed and we have got right in.

I'm going to say I couldn't possibly comment with actually being able to pronounce the words. I couldn't possibly comment, James. The level of concentration that took though made it a lot more sinister because you were really focused on like, I couldn't possibly comment. With no, not a twinkle in the eyes, no element of fun, just seriously trying to say the words. But Amy, thank you very much for coming back. It simply can't have been because you've written another excellent book, right? I couldn't possibly comment. We're going to have to press you on this one. I believe I have evidence that you have written

another book. Well, it was the quality of the book. I didn't want to blow my own trumpet, but there is another book and I'm really excited about it. I'm really excited to be talking to you about it. Yes, it's been fairly swift on the heels of the last one, but I did all the research for it over the last decade, so that made it easier to write. I did this unconscious research, no not unconscious, researching it subconsciously, not knowing that was what it was for. It's all about saints, medieval saints' legends, these fantastic stories that circulated in medieval Europe, especially interested in those focusing on Britain and Northwestern Europe, and interested in the loss of them with the Protestant Reformation and how we might dismiss these stories as

having got lost because they're boring or irrelevant. And actually, that's not the case. They were actively suppressed by a tyrant and by an authoritarian regime. Alistair And they're definitely not boring. Emma And they're definitely not boring. Definitely not. Jason I was reading one about otters, about a saint who was fed by an otter over a period of 30 years, which I quickly checked is way longer than an otter lives. So it's two miracles for the price of one. Emma The years, which I quickly checked, is way longer than an otter lives. So it's two miracles for the price of one. Emma McAllister

The joy of that story, Paul the hermit, isn't it? Is it Peter the hermit? Paul the hermit. It's in the Voyage of St Brendan and he meets this old hermit with all his hair going down to his toes. He lives on a rock in the middle of the sea and an otter visits him every day. Or is it every three days? Every 30 days? Something like that. Toby Every three days suggests the otter has other... Emma It's like a post otter, it goes around. No pouch of seaweed for me. The otter postal service is going to hell in a handcart. It's rubbish. Yeah, but it has a little pouch around its neck with seaweed to use as tinder. I'm sorry that I'm so vague

on this story. It's a passing note in a commentary for one of the fictional retellings. Yeah, very appealing moment, that otter. But you can see why the Protestants read that and thought, no, this must be suppressed. This level of cuteness cannot stand. To think they knew about the otters holding hands as well in those days. Possibly. I mean, there's another, the otters make another appearance in the life of Cuthbert, in the story of St Cuthbert that I retell where James is gasped. Yeah, well, no, we're familiar, St Cuthbert, a friend of the show, I believe.

Of course, because I'm from Durham. And we also had, there was a guy called Cuthbert Shield, the ghost of Cuthbert Shields was a guy who named himself after his favourite saint and where he was from. Incidentally, which is a test we will do on you later. So it's your favourite saint and where you're from. But please tell us about more otters. Well, no, it's just that Cuthbert, as you well know, Cuthbert would habitually stand in the North Sea and say his prayers at night. And on one of these occasions, so Bede tells us, who's writing sort of 50 years or so after Cuthbert's death, so pretty soon, pretty reliable witness compared to some of the hagiographers who haven't got a clue 500 years later or something. He says that when the saint climbed out of the sea

to dry, and he would just drip dry in the wind. Mason Hickman You wouldn't just rub it off on a couple of otters? Emma Watson Yeah, the otters would climb out of the sea and dry, and I'd presumably shake themselves, get themselves dry, and then dry his feet and ankles. And it describes- Really?

When I said, do otters dry St. Cuthbert, I thought I was doing a bit of whimsical surrealism. I didn't think that could possibly happen. But the venerable bead got there first. As usual, one of my jokes has already been done by the venerable bead. You know you're funny though when eighth century chroniclers from Monk Wyrmoth Jarrow are telling the same jokes as you. But yeah, and it describes them sort of winding themselves around the saint's feet and drawing them with little puffs of breath. I can't see that working in winter. You'd be there a long time drying yourself on otter's

breath. Yes. Emma Cunningham It's probably like a really, really niche spa treatment somewhere. Jason Vale Yeah, like when they used to get fish to nibble off your dead skin. Emma Cunningham If you've got enough otters, it could be like a Dyson hand dryer. You just have to stand there for 10 seconds. Jason Vale Yeah, it's not about the power, it's about how it's channeled, how you channel the air. Yes. Through a nother.

Through a nother. Ideally. Yeah, lovely. Well, that, that, I mean, that's fantastic. Is that your, your favourite saint of the, of the moment? I think I, favourite saint of the moment. I wish I had the book in print and it's arriving on Wednesday, and then I could, I could have it open in front of me and remember on earth is in it because this thing happens like going when you go into an exam and you think I think I've revised it the embarrassment of riches is astonishing and I think that the ways in which I mean so one one saint that I particularly

enjoy is St. Edmund the martyr. That sounds like the sort of place you wouldn't want to go to because that sounds like a threat very St. Edmund the martyr. That sounds like the sort of place he wouldn't want to go to because that sounds like a threat. Very St. Edmunds. And it's plural. So like all of the St. Edmunds, not just... But then he was a bit of a martyr, wasn't he? Was he sort of like, oh no, no, I'll do it, I suppose. No, no, no, no, no, it's fine. You have fun.

Also, this has made me think of the town, Otterie St. Mary. Is that a place or have I made that up? I've never heard Otterie St. Mary before. I feel like I've seen it on a sign. Yeah, it's in Dorset or something, isn't it? Or Devon, maybe. But I love the place. Otterie St. Mary is in Devon, which is next door sit on the river Otter. Okay, so it's not a saint who similarly is trying to paint a drying system. Or maybe she dried otters back

and sort of repaid them for their labor. It's the circle of Otter. Yes, it is the circle of otters. Anyway, that's a beautiful image. So Edmund the Martyr in Mary St. Edmunds. Yeah, I like this story. I think this story has come to mind to follow on the heels of the Otter story because it also involves a helpful animal. There's a little bit of Google confusion about this, which possibly has been updated since I last checked. Basically, the story goes that St. Edmund was king in East Anglia when the Vikings, the Viking army invaded and they were demanding tribute from him. This is,

I'm going to say, late eighth century, early ninth century. I think he's like eight, twenty or something. I need to check the date. I get so swept up in the stories, I forget the history. He refuses to pay tribute to Kingvar, the Danish king. So his soldiers come and they burst into, he's just King Edmund at this point, King Edmund's hall, drag him out, tie him to a tree and shoot him full of arrows. And then, just for the job to be done properly, they chop off his head. And then to be even more uptrixie, they take his head and hide it because they know that Edmund's people are Christian and that they'll want to bury the body in its complete form. And so if it's incomplete, they will be really disappointed. And so they hide, they hide the head in a thicket and everyone's

calling for their king. My Vikings go and everyone's going around calling for him. Yeah, I don't actually, I guess they're just searching for his head. Yeah. Oh, if they know, if they found the body, then calling is a waste of time. Yeah. They would know that. Yeah. So anyway know that. Yeah. So anyway, they're looking around and maybe one or two are hopefully calling for him, but thinking this is probably futile. They hear a voice saying, I'm here.

I'm here. I'm here. And it's important that he's actually speaking in English, although there is quite a funny illustration in a margin of a manuscript of a severed head saying, Hic, Hic, Hic, which is the Latin for I'm here, I'm here, I'm here, or here, here, here. But it looks like he's got hiccups. And so they go, they follow the sound of the king's voice. It's important that he's speaking English because it's this idea that he's a real,

a true leader of his people and he speaks their language. And they go into the thicket and they find it being guarded by a wolf. And Edmund is of the Wolfinger dynasty, which may mean the people of the wolves or something like that. There's some connection to wolves as a kind of dynastic emblematic animal with this dynasty. And so this wolf is guarding the head from any kind of attacks by, I guess, carrion birds. Head hunters. Head hunters, yeah. But not these head hunters. When he sees them, he lets them take the head and then he follows the wolf follows them or she follows them all the way back

to the body and waits patiently while they put the head on the body and it sort of fuses itself back on leaving just a little red line. And then it takes itself back into the wild. But I think there's a bit of when I was researching this, there was some Wikipedia confusion about who did the talking and that it was, there was a talking wolf. Right. Is that, is that what you think? Oh no, in the, in the medieval like primary sources, it's the head that talks and it's really important that it's the king talking to his people in English. Not a chatty wolf.

If the wolf had spoken English to the people, that would have had no political significance. It would have been just weird. There is a third way, which is the wolf would blow through the bottom of the neck hole to sort of use it like a talking head. I was going to say there is the potential for ventriloquism. Well, wolves don't really have lips, so that probably makes it easier to be a wolf ventriloquist. Yeah. Yeah. As long as you just miss out all those, you know, no tongue twisters and stuff.

I think that would work quite well. And maybe, I'm here. I'm going, I can't, can any, I'm here. I'm in the ticket. Heck is easier to be fair. Heck is really, that's why they had him doing it in Latin, because that's easy to say. So the third option is that there's a ventriloquist wolf. Or he's sort of blowing him like a trumpet, like a really gross trumpet. Like pushing through and he's going like maybe over a bottle. This is some niche stuff you're into, James.

Yeah, so he could have been using the king's head as a trumpet. Very easily. We don't know the wolf didn't. Yeah, prove that he didn't use the king's head as a trumpet. So, but then the story does get, that's the animal bit, and that's obviously really great. And then his head and body, all fused together now, are enshrined in a church, and that church ends up with a settlement around it that becomes known as Bury St Edmunds. Not because they buried him there, it was because of Burg or like, settlement. That's me saying it in a vaguely Scandinavian way to remind myself that bura and buri and all those other suffixes are the same. That wasn't me, that was a wolf blowing up my backside.

Murder? You still do. That wasn't me. That was a wolf blowing up my backside. So then he's enshrined and there's two versions of the story now. I think the first one is Abbe Fleury, a Benedictine monk, writes about how a lady called O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, really, really good in the sense of being virtuous and holy, but it suffuses your body and your body parts and you've got the ability to cope with great physical endurance. But also, when you've died, you might not ever rot or your hair might carry on growing. It happens to St Catherine of Alexandria when she's found on Mount Sinai. Her hair has been

growing the whole time she's been dead. Sinai. Her hair has been growing the whole time and she's been dead. So it's Olwen's job to cut his hair and fingernails periodically. And she puts them in a little box that lives near the shrine. And then in a slightly later version by a monk called Herman Olwen, I'm sorry, I'm fluffing her name because I focused more on the Herman story because I like there's a really good extra bit in that story. So he's now got a lay monk called, or lay Clark, lay, what was the word they use? Lay brother. That's the one called Alwina.

Nice sausage guy. Yeah. Alwina by Herman. And he comes into the church every few weeks and it has the job of clipping St. Edmund's fingernails, trimming his hair and mustache and beard and everything, and then putting the trimmings in a little box that's been venerated by pilgrims. But now this is the time of the second round

of Viking incursions and this sort of beginning of Danish rule and Swain Forkbeard is on the throne. Swain Forkbeard? I remember, I think we've heard of Swain Forkbeard is on the throne. Swain Forkbeard? I remember, I think we've heard of Swain Forkbeard. There can't be that many forked beard fellas. How many prongs are we talking? Or are they actual forks? Yes. Oh, just a beard full of forks.

That would be useful. When all you need is a knife. It's like a beard full of forks. Oswin, I just had a look at the text of your book. It's Oswin, not Alwina. Okay. Friend of God, I think, or friend of the gods. Alwina would be friend of the elves. Or sausages. I think, or joy of the elves. Or sausages.

Or sausages. Is that wolf again? Sausages. Because I think originally it would have been Alwena, but maybe it was something, or maybe it was athawena and it's been contri... Anyway, somebody listening to this can put in their two penneth. Yeah, so he's then gathering these little clippings in the box and he's really diligent and I just love this idea of this fastidious lay brother coming in to do this work.

But also, Swain Forkbeard is going to exact very brutal taxes on the English who are already starving. And this is a kind of part two of Danes coming to Britain and asking for tribute. It's a replaying of the circumstances that led to the martyrdom of St Edmund. Anyway, so he's going to exact a lot of tribute from the English. Alwina prays to St Edmund, who appears to him most nights anyway, and they kind of chat. What, she's doing his hair? Or he's doing the hair? It is. So Alwina has gone home at this point, and then Edmund appears to him as a ghost and they chat. And he says about what's happening with the taxes. And St Edmund's like, don't

worry, I'll talk to Swain. And he supposedly then appears to Swain and says to him, don't tax the English. And Swain says, bugger off, I'll do what I bloody well like. And so Edmund, the ghost Edmund goes back to Elwina and says, look, sorry, Swain's not listening to me, we're going to have to be a bit harsh about this. So could you travel to his court at Gainsborough and he better not demand lots of taxes from the English or else. So Elwina very bravely rides all the way to Swain's Court at Gainsborough and makes this announcement in front of the whole court and Swain drives him out in a fury. And Elwina then is told by St Edmund to ride home as quickly as he can because things are going to hit the fan. And basically that night

St Edmund appears in ghost form over Swain Forkbeard's bed. And just so that it makes it much easier for later iconographers and manuscripts, he's holding a big bag of money to show like, this is what I'm cross about. I was cross about it before and your forefathers murdered me and I'm cross about it again. And then he gets a big spear and he drives it into Swain Forkbeard's chest and murders him in his bed. And I'm imagining a nightstand with a glass with loads of forks in it for the morning. He's reaching for the fork, but he can't get it. Oh, he's dead.

Yeah. And so Swain Forkbeard is killed, according to this legend. And it's very popular and widespread legend by the ghost of an English king. That's really unusual. That's remarkable. Ghosts really don't kill people that often. I often wonder when you're watching spooky films and everyone runs away from ghosts, what they're afraid of. Because really in stories, ghosts don't do things to you. Yeah. And he's far more likely to have made Swain Forkbeard kind of walk upside down on his

hands and feet in a crab kind of posture or something like that. Is he? No. Oh, the axis. Ghosts are always doing that sort of thing. They're all, ghosts are always making you do horrible things. Yeah. Mm.

Ah, that would be tough actually, if your beard was made of forks to do a handstand. Yeah, we hadn't really... that's not a human face. There's a human face hidden by forks on it. So Swain Forkbeard's killed by St Edmund's Ghost. And this is depicted in lots of later manuscripts as genuine history. With the money and the spear, kind of like a local newspaper photo, you know, when they're like, oh, he's annoyed about the money. He's very unhappy about the money. And he's with the other end, he's spearing someone to death. Yeah. And he's got,

he's beautifully dressed in the picture. And I think that Elwina, you know, in this particular picture I'm thinking of, Elwina would be really proud of how neat his hair is. Oh good, yes, that's a good point because he's constantly getting it. I think the really interesting thing, so this little box of clippings was a significant relic for pilgrims to Bury St Edmunds. Bury St Edmunds was one of the biggest cult centres in Britain, really famous and very, very wealthy. But it's also one of the objects of greatest scorn at the Reformation. There is a commissioner goes there and he writes back, so I think it's Thomas Cromwell reporting on what they've

got rid of and he says about Thomas Becket's penknife. Oh no. And the pairings of St Edmund's nails and he's sort of these profane and kind of, he's called it, but he's basically accusing the medieval pilgrims of superstition and... Sorry, are you telling me that praying to a box of fingernail clippings is not Christianity? Is that not a direct line to the almighty? I couldn't possibly comment. Big box of clippings. Alistair McAllister It also sounds like a grumpy teacher like, well I've confiscated his pen.

Emma Cunningham I mean it's a difficult thing to talk about I guess, or a sensitive thing because I was raised Catholic. I remember when the relics of a particular saint, I can't remember which saint actually, came to Britain and there was a great deal of excitement within the Catholic community I was part of to go and see these relics. And there's still this living belief within Catholicism that holy bones are imbued with sacred power and that if that body was directed towards God at every waking moment, then that does something physical to the bones. And the interesting thing about writing this book has been, there is a great deal of hilarity, you know, in the things that were venerated, it's sort of fascinating and curious, especially in

a sort of secular Protestant setting like we're in. But equally, there's an enormous amount of retouching and the seriousness of what belief in relics and belief in the cult of saints, what it offered people. I was very interested, as I was researching this book, to see how really the cult of saints grew up in spite of the quote-unquote official church. I say that knowing that the church was a morphing thing and it didn't have a very tight grip on all its different identities necessarily. The cult of saints was something that came out of popular fervour in the early church for people being persecuted and people who showed particular fortitude in the face of persecution and cults sprung up around their graves. And then the travelling relics that went with missionaries into Northern Europe were particularly effective at winning the interest and devotion of people practicing, say like the Germanic faith. And there was this kind of, this idea of miracle working

bones seemed to be particularly effective. And so you get then shrines being set up, old temples being converted for Christian use and the dedication days of the, or the, the dedicatory saint whose bones resided in that temple, now church or oratory, would, would have their feast days celebrated and, and so this, this cult of saints kind of, it, it gathers force to the point that in the 15th century, hundreds of thousands of pilgrims are counted in Aachen, which had relics of the Virgin's nightgown, I think. In a single day coming through the gates of Aachen, they were counted by dropping peas in a jar. And equally, there's shrines in Britain that are completely vanished now, like that of Thomas of Cantaloupe, brilliant name, Hereford Cathedral,

or maybe it was a sort of nickname because he was just round. Perfectly spherical sight. There's orange inside. Is that the orange one inside? Get my melons mixed up outside a watermelon. Oh dear, James. Very melon blind, a melon blind. Can't believe you shouldn't be driving, James. What if you crash into a greengrocer?

What then? He was one of the saints who was, his cult emerged just at the time that they started really challenging the systems of canonisation. And in the 14th century, the votive offerings at his shrine were counted in order to prove the force of the popular divine. Because these vote of offerings were supposed to, were generally given in thanks for a miracle. And so it was seen as a sort of public testimony to, or a democratic vote on the power of this saint. One per miracle.

Exactly. And there were thousands little wax objects, hundreds of children's nightshifts. There were objects in silver and gold. There were this shrine of a relatively low fame saint was bedecked with many thousands of objects left by people in thanks for miracles. And so that, yeah, I think the kind of joy of writing this book has been to kind of revel in the human imagination, to laugh at the bits that are funny, like little otters and their puffing breaths and little boxes of nail clippings, but to really stand back in appreciation at what humans can achieve en masse. And actually in the same breath, I will say the damage they can do. Yeah, it's a topic full of very rich and

fascinating stories and also full of humanity in all its shades. Will Barron Does that saying, I think people used to push back on the Richard Dawkins style atheist, which is when you believe in nothing, you'll believe in anything, which I think is generally not true. I don't think that atheists are more gullible than religious people. But when you talk about the beliefs about saints springing up democratically or from people and being incorporated into church practices, it is reminiscent of all the weird things. If we did just get rid of religion now and all of these traditions, within a year we'd be believing pretty much the same things but attached to different people. They

do just have a tendency to just kind of spring up out of nowhere, don't they? Emma Meehan Yes. I think it says that one of the things that I particularly was interested in is, you know, we have a lot of these buildings left, either in ruined form or not, in the case of Durham Cathedral. We have objects like Cuthbert's coffin on display in Durham Cathedral. And something that I think that we have slightly lost touch with in relation to these centres and artefacts is the legends. And that was a real mission of this book was to say, you know, maybe we're used to it. My association with

Saints Legends is maybe like part of bigging up a school. Like my first encounter with this was St. Martin. I went to St. Martin's School in Caversham when I was, that was my first school. And I remember being told, I think we had a broom and something on the logo on our chests and I thought he was really good at sweeping. Maybe we were told some version of a story. I think somebody later I saw them on Twitter saying, oh, Saint Martin, that famous story of him dividing his cloak for the beggar, why didn't he give him the whole cloak instead of just cutting his cloak in half? And then you read the medieval version and the point is that he's been giving away all

his clothes and if he gives away his whole cloak, he'll be naked and then he'll be being indecent and offending people. It's a freezing winter and people are dying of cold on the streets and so he divides his cloak in half so that he has one bit to cover his modesty and then he can still give the begging man something to shelter himself. Mason- I think the Your School uniform should have had a fully detailed picture of a mostly naked man with a tiny rag just barely covering his genitalia out of respect for the saint. Alistair- I think Your School uniform should have featured a tear away cloak. Mason- That's true.

You could let Hulk Hogan rip it in half quite easily. Yeah, yeah. With like poppers like those trousers in the 90s. Just, you're right, there's so much more they could have done. And then there's like the dark side of Saint's Legends too, as with William of Norwich. This is a shared heritage of storytelling and we should be talking about Saint's Legends in the same breath as we talk about fairy tale and folklore and literature more generally. And so that was guess yet another part of the mission of this book is to show how our landscape was shaped

by story, how Durham Cathedral to how Cuthbert's remains after the monks have been fleeing the Vikings and settling in various places for generations. Chesterless Street. On a raft of legends by Bede, yeah, Chester-le-Street, exactly, by those stories that Bede told with the otters and everything. That's all sustaining. That's the foundations of Durham Cathedral and Durham.

Yeah, without those otters, where would Durham be? Exactly. Without two otters and a cow. And a really long stopover in Chester-le-Street. Well, I mean, these are wonderful, wonderful stories, Amy. Thank you very much. And now to the scores. So, Amy, as that was very beautifully put, how we should respect these stories from the past and they should... Amy Barron But also think critically about them in some

ways. Some of them were horrible. Jason Vale Yes. But now we're just going to really boil it down to an out of five scoring system. Yeah. Yeah. First of all, shall we do naming? What do you think? Yes. Yeah. Am I the one passing judgment here? Am I the one? Okay. Well, I liked Edmund the Martyr. Sorry, I'm looking at the book and I just saw the words, the Wilton Diptych.

Which is a lovely phrase that didn't come up in the story, the Wilton Diptych. Is that like a triptych? But there's only two. It's like a triptych, but it's just below the horizon. We had St Edmund and Alwina. And Abbo of Fleury, he came into it. Swain Forkbeard. Yes.

And the Cantaloupe guy. I feel like a lot of weight is being carried by Swain Forkbeard and Thomas of Cantaloupe. They are the real tent poles. Yeah. Yeah. They've both got a very obviously funny object in their name. Is there a third pillar that we could find? In the book in general?

Yeah, I mean, if you want to throw out a weird name. Smaragdus of Saint Michael. Oh, I don't actually know if I talk about him in the book, but there is a smaragdus. Smaragdus? Smaragdus? Not the smaragdus of Saint Michael, a different smaragdus. Smaragdus? I barely even know us. Smaragdus is my, when I email my former supervisor, my PhD supervisor, I sign off as Smaragdus.

Something maybe a serial killer would do. Yeah, it means emerald, but that's not why I use it. I just really like Smaragdus of Saint Mahir. I'm going to say it's a four out of five for names because even though there are only two really brilliant names, they're worth more than one each. Yes. Swain Forkbe they're worth more than one each. Swain Forkbeard is worth more than one point. Likewise, Timmy of Melons.

Timmy Melons. So I think it's four out of five for names. That's good work. That is good work. Very respectable score. Well done. The second category is supernatural. Well, okay.

Yes. Now normally a head that's been severed from the body can't speak. Normally. Even if a wolf blows down the neck. Yes. Okay. Even during that scenario that normally wouldn't result in recognisable English speech. So that's supernatural.

Normally it'd result in a mess. Otters do not feed people or dry them. They just float around holding hands, looking cute. Yeah, it's not as far away from their normal behaviour as the wolf and head situation. Yeah, but then there's the other otter that brought seaweed in a little pouch. Yeah, but that's still quite adorable. So it's unusual behavior, but it's still within the it's within the area of adorable cuteness, which I think...

So like somebody else could have attached a seaweed and then it could be like a homing otter that just goes, always goes back to that island. Like a Delivero-tter. Sorry, I was just thinking about Australian Deliveroo being a kangaroo. But it could be Delivero-tter. Oh, that's why you said Del you said Deliverotta. I've just come full circle on that joke. Got it. Did somebody say? Oh, I just thought of a joke. Deliverotta. Did somebody say just Otter?

Literally, Saints Eleven's a wall to wall supernatural. There's some quite interesting discussion on the nature of miracles versus magic. There's a really good story. Can I tell a really quick story about these? Jason Vale Usually we would not admit a story within the scores section, but go on. Emma Cunningham Oh, just about these magicians in France who got called out by a bishop in the Middle Ages for doing miracles everywhere, but it turned out that they had indentures from the devil sewn into their armpits. Jason Vale What are indentures from the devil sewn into their armpits. Emma Meehan They had to be opened up and the contracts were drawn out. This is all recorded by a guy called Cesarius of Heisterbach, who I

wish I'd mentioned before the naming round. there was quite a lot of controversy around what or wasn't a miracle and what was or wasn't supernatural and whether God could do anything that was beyond nature when he was the creator of nature and was that contrary to what God was. And they didn't work it out because the theologians could say one thing but then all the people carried on believing other stuff. So I think that actually the supernatural category that you have on this podcast is a really problematic field in general and And we could argue for hours over whether or not something is... It's normally me saying is there's not enough ghosts in it, so it's not very supernatural. That's usually where I come down. Essentially, it's a byword for were there ghosts, because we often hit upon the same problem, which is that if cryptids are

real, they're not supernatural. And therefore, whenever we're talking about a Bigfoot or something like that, if it's real, it's not supernatural. And if it's not real, then it didn't happen. Oh, you're basically like the theologians of the medieval cathedral schools. Yes, we are. Thank you. Now finally, someone's noticed. Yeah. So what are you saying, Alistair? I, well, I don't want to, once again, I don't want to fall foul of the medieval theologians.

So I'm just going to pitch it in the middle and go for a three because if these things are miracles, if these are the work of God, they're not really supernatural. But some things we've discussed may have been the work of the devil and his many demons and those, I guess, would be supernatural. So let's just go with a three. I'm just hedging. Yeah, I don't think they just, they worked out either. I think they were supernatural, but exactly what that meant in terms of what God could do was confusing. A thorny intellectual

issue. Next category. I think we should go for cute little helpful animals. Cute little helpful animals. Cute little helpful animals. Loved them. Absolutely loved them, James. There were otters. There were. Three otters in total.

I think about it. I thought there were two, but there's three. Yeah, Paul's otter. Three adorable otters. There was a wolf. Yes, not little, nor cute. Very helpful. Okay, yeah. It may be a little bit over familiar.

Yeah, I don't know about that. Who else is cute and helpful? Do you think that Swain Forkbeard's beard contained lice? Maybe from certain angles, they might be quite cute. I'm not convinced that they would be cute or helpful. Unless they ate the rust off the forks. I suppose they, but then yeah, you would get itchy. You scratch it with a fork.

That's his thing. Oh, do you think the forks faced upwards then? Like tines up. So he could. I'm imagining them in all different directions. Okay. Like, how were you picturing it? You were imagining them all hanging down.

Yeah, my moral, yeah, tying down. But then when he's in a good mood, like Asterix's feathers, they probably, they go... Near an electromagnet. Yeah. Like a sort of Danish sea anemone. All right. I've started, I was enjoying that. I started thinking about that and I was enjoying it.

I was about to give you a good score, but then I remembered that's not a cute little animal. So I think we're on maybe a three or four. Have you got anything that can persuade me to make that a four and not a three? Am I allowed to bring it? Oh, sorry. I keep thinking it has to be the stories. There's so many.

There's the goose that becomes like Wehrberg's. St. Wehrberg saves a goose that's been eaten. I think we've done, we have actually, weirdly, we have done that robot, like T1000 Goose that reforms, right? All the meat, isn't it a meat goose, basically? Yeah. Yeah. We have talked about Verberg's meat goose.

Not with you, with other, not with you, with other people. What? How dare you? Have you been talking about geese with other people, James? What about the Tad Rabbits from the very beginning, you get which may be cut? people, James. What about the tanned rabbits from the very beginning, you get which may be cut? Oh, yes, very cute. And that fox with rigor mortis, what an adorable creature.

So elsewhere in the book, so there's the otters, there's a robin that gets its head pulled off by some naughty school boys, and then St. Mungo pulls those boys' heads off. The child, St. Mungo. Pulls those boys heads off. The child St. Mungo intervenes and it's a really touching story. I mean, I think we've got to be getting a high score for this, I must say. Yeah, all right. I think it's another four, because every time you start a bit of it, it sounds cute, like there's an adorable Robin and then two seconds later, its head gets pulled off. So it's a four. Maybe it would have been a five if that Robin's head

had not been pulled off. One of the first stories in the book, there's a salmon. And what part of it is pulled off? It doesn't get pulled off at all. Nobody pulls off the salmon at all. No, it doesn't. It just jumps back in the sea. It's just to prove that Saint Skaheen isn't actually walking on a meadow as he thinks he is. He's actually walking on water. And so this guy in a boat is like, you are actually walking on the sea. Look, here's a salmon. And he reaches into the sea and pulls out a salmon, shows it to him. And he's like, blimey. And there's another salmon

later given to a bishop by a Thames fisherman via. Peter. What about tinned salmon? They keep dying. I noticed there's a trend for the animals and your stories die. I think it's a four. It's a good old solid four you've persuaded me. There you go. This final category, I think it's opening us up for a definite score here, but I think it's going to go well, Amy. Four candles. Four candles.

Four candles. Because... As in handles for forks? Yes, four candles. But then also we did have a big chat about the sheer amount of wax figurines that were left and what a candle's actual candles made of. I hope it's wax. Wax. Yes. And actually, actually, the descriptions of Thomas Becket's shrine, which was completely destroyed in the Reformation, do often explain that there were four candles displayed along

above his shrine. And they were always kept alight. And I've never been able to make that joke before. But every time it makes me think that the joke needs to be made. Oh, well, since I mean, with Thomas Beckett, my sort of namesake, how could I deny you? Well, I don't know, maybe I should do another four. That's the problem. I want to give it five, but I feel like four is the more appropriate. Well, I think if you give it the five, then no one's going to be confused about this anymore. We would end the confusion.

Okay. No, I was going to try and do a two Ronny's joke about scoring the category that comes next, but it's too late for that. It's five out of five. Put it in the book. That's just such good five. Yes! Yay! Ring the bell. Ding, ding, ding. Put it in the book. That's just such good news. Made up, Alistair.

Thank you so much. Well, thank you very much, Amy. And what is the name of your book? I think people have got an idea. It's called Saints, a New Legendary of Heroes, Humans and Magic. And listeners can expect retellings of medieval saints legends, followed by commentaries that track not only the passing of the medieval year and some of its rituals and beliefs, but also the rise and fall of the medieval cult of

saints and the cataclysmic changes that led to the suppression of a whole raft of wonderful stories. Thank you very much Amy. That was wonderful to have you back as a deputy law person. Yes and I hope that we can have a chat in Froome sometime about vickers. Yes, yes. And riddling bishops. We've got something brewing. And farting on shrines. Sounds like a great day out. Sounds like a great day out. Well, that was a lot of fun. And if you want to hear more of that, go to patreon.com forward slash law men pod.

And you will get access to that extra and a whole feast of other extras from all the other, almost all the other episodes, many of their episodes, most of the other episodes. And you'll get access to the Law Folk Discord where you can chat to like-minded Law Folk. So thank you very much to Amy. Thank you much to Joe for editing this. Cheers, Joe. Thank you very much to all the Law Folk who already do support us on the Patreon.

And thanks very much for all the beautiful people that leave reviews and five-star ratings on the internet. We do like a five-star rating, don't we, James? Yeah. for all the beautiful people that leave reviews and five star ratings on the internet. We do like a five star rating don't we James? Yeah. I do enjoy a five star rating now and again. Yum yum yum I think. Five stars please.

Go on, I'll have one. It's funny that saints alive is an expression because they're famous for being dead. That's the main thing that they have to be. You have to. Oh I've just being dead. That's the main thing. Yep. They have to be. You have to. Oh, I've just realized it means it's the end of the world. It means it's the rapture, right? Saint's alive.

If the saints are back alive, that means, you know, the man's coming around. Oh. Taking names. Which man? From the Johnny Cash song. Oh no. Jesus. One of, one of the, one of those lads.

Jesus or the bad guy. Yeah.