Loremen Podcast - Loremen S6Ep8 - The Man They Hanged Thrice

Episode Date: March 20, 2025

James tells the true story of a man who escaped the hangman's noose, not once, not twice and not four times either. The life of John "Babbacombe" Lee was made into a silent film in 1912. Smash-cut to 2025, and James is retelling the tale with his usual cinematic panache. Yes, this is a James Shakeshaft Joint starring your two favourite Loreboys. This episode was edited by Joseph Burrows - Audio Editor Join the LoreFolk at patreon.com/loremenpod ko-fi.com/loremen Check the sweet, sweet merch here... https://www.teepublic.com/stores/loremen-podcast?ref_id=24631 @loremenpod youtube.com/loremenpodcast www.instagram.com/loremenpod www.facebook.com/loremenpod Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Welcome to Lawmen, a podcast about local legends and obscure curiosities from days of yore. I'm James Shake Shaft. And I'm Alistair Beckett King. Oh boy, Alistair, I have gone back to my roots of making folklore into a really bad film. Oh, good. This? Yeah. And you've got a hell of a title.

I do. Alistair, get your popcorn, get a massive soft drink and settle in for The Man They Hanged Thrice. The third in the The Man They Hanged series. Oh no, people are going to want to see The Man They Hanged Once and The Man They Hanged Twoce. How are you doing? First of all, I need to do some sort of formalities. Oh, I'm all right. Are you checking in with me? Is this going to be a distressing episode? Well, it's distressing if you're distressed by my episodes that start off like a film

and then I shortly forget that. Okay, okay, alright. Fine. Yeah, I am quite distressed. Thank you for checking in with me. Yes. Okay then. Alright. I can't wait for you to start doing a film and then sort of forget about that halfway through. Well, get your popcorn ready and then forget about that popcorn. Crunch, crunch, crunch. Smash cut.

Whoa! Most directors, I'm sure you've done this before. Most people smash cut from one image to another. I'm smash cutting from the trailers or the BBFC card. Smash cut from being in the lobby choosing a big drink. Yes. Smash cut to... The outside of a house in Devon in Babaco, which is now kind of part of Torquay. It's, it's at the bottom of a very steep cliff. Oh, and one of my sources for this book is Devon Ghosts by Theo Brown. I'll just get you a

year for that. Cause it is of course published by Gerald. Oh, nice. Lovely name. Of Norwich this edition, 1982. Before I was born. Is that spelled C O O M B or C O M B? B A B B A C O M B E. So I think the Coom Com thing is that that's like a little bay. Is it? Yes, it is. In the West country. It's a sort of like a, we don't have fjords, but like whatever we have that instead of a fjord. Yeah.

Yeah. So there's loads of Coombs down in the Southwest, aren't there? Ilfracom, Babacom, Holicom is going to get a little mention later on. Oh. Butcom. I'm sorry. Yes. They do a beer called Butcom beer. For the hairier gentlemen. Yes, exactly.

Which is, which is fine. But, exactly. Which is fine. But yeah, we're down there. We're at the bottom of the very steep cliff. For the infirm and lazy, there has been a funicular railway for many years. So we're having a little bit of fun. Putting the fun into funicular there. It's just a little bit of, did the current Labour government write this? See what I'm saying there?

Because they're having a go at disabled people today. Oh, I mean, of course this will eventually become the past and Labour might eventually do something good. Maybe. Uh, it doesn't seem very likely. Let's not rule it out. There's a few houses and one of which the Glen is the one that we've just smashed cutted to the exterior of. Um, a little title card comes up saying the night of the 14th of November,

1884. I think you could just say 14th of November and people would tell it was nighttime from the sky. Yeah, I know, but this is an audio medium of the film. Oh, okay. Sorry, I forgot. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And this is the podcast of the film.

Yes. The podcastization. Somehow the podcast has got a bit in the middle, which is photographs. Love that. That's my favorite part of any book. Exactly. That's where the spine breaks. So it's Twixt 3 and 4 AM and the cook Elizabeth Harris is in bed. So we're fading in.

Maybe we should have done that before. We probably should have done that before. Sorry. We started, we smashed cut to the exterior and now we're fading into the interior. Yes. Okay. And Elizabeth Harris is in bed, asleep in bed and her nose twitches and we can hear the sound of crackling. Oh no. And then maybe she murmurs, oh, turn it over. Either Jane or Eliza, the maids of the house, you'll burn it. She thinks someone's burning breakfast, but it's not breakfast, James. No, she thinks either Jane or Eliza, the maids of the house might be burning some bacon. A little bit of smoke creeps into the room and then she wakes with a start and goes downstairs

and in the main room of the house she finds the other maid who are also Jane, the aforementioned Jane and Eliza who are also awake and they go into the main room and surrounded by bits of kindling and kerosene soaked rags is the lady of the house. Oh, I was going to say if it smells like bacon, it's got to be flesh of some kind. I'm afraid so. What? The lady of the house is body. It's Emma Anne Whitehead Keyes' body.

Spoiler there. Which is dead, which is a dead body. A dead body. And then a little bit of writing comes up as well on the film saying she was born in 1816 in Edmonton, London. Okay, fine. I guess you can do anything in a film. People don't normally do that. Unless it's like what it's like a cool action movie thing where it's like swing freeze frame. And then like text comes in, but she's dead. So normally that would happen while the character was alive. Well, hey, I'm making my own film.

Yeah, no, that's fine. No, no, you plow your own furrow, James. I've always said that about you. No, I'm making my own film. Yeah, no, that's fine. No, no, you plough your own furrow, James. I've always said that about you. No, I'm making a film! Ha ha ha! When you finish your furrows! Okay. How can you make your film if you don't plough your furrows? And then some more text comes up saying that she's an older woman now.

Ha ha ha! She had, and quote marks around it, hob-knobbed with the highest in the land. Hobbed some of the top knobs. And also this might've helped when she and Isambard Kingdom Brunel prevented a gasworks being built at Babacan. Did they? Yeah.

Hmm. Because she knew how flammable she was. Maybe. She was worried about leaks. Yeah, I guess so. She always sensed she would go in a, in a flambé. Unlucky holicum near Paynton. That's where it was ultimately built.

But yeah, she's dead. She's deaded. So this is not spontaneous human combustion because the kindling and the kerosene suggests intentional. This is human combustion aforethought. Oh, good. That sounds really legal. I mean, it sounds illegal, but the way you phrased it.

Is it illegal to burn people alive? No, she's dead. Well, I'm sure she's dead now. Was she dead at first? Well, yes. She had died from a blow to the head. Oh, and someone tried to cover up the evidence. And she had a throat cut a bit as well. But nothing was stolen from the house. John Lee, the only man in the house, apparently was arrested. He was a footman. He was 22. And he was taken on despite having a previous prison record for theft. Now in real life, this guy would have done it. But in a film, this guy's innocent. Well, but in real life, he's the profile. He's a young guy. They commit most of the crimes. He was the only young guy. I'm not saying we should do profiling, but you and life, he's the profile. He's a young guy. They commit most of the crimes. He was the only young guy.

I'm not saying we should do profiling, but you and me, James, as podcasters, we can say whatever we want. Well, he, so this, a little sort of backstory on this guy, this guy had always wanted to be in the Navy and he joined the merchant Navy when he was like 16, but he got pneumonia and then was discharged and he was really gutted cause he'd always wanted to do it. So he ended up becoming a footman, did a bit of robbery and got caught and went to jail and then came out of jail.

But then was taken in by Emma Anne Whitehead-Keys as her footman and he worked for her fine until she was died. Until the burning incident. And he was arrested. I don't think this guy did it. He was tried at Exeter and despite the fact that almost all the evidence was purely circumstantial, he had a bit of blood on his sleeve that he said was his own. He was in the house, but that's because he worked there. He was the only man there. That's not his fault.

He was found guilty and condemned to be hanged. Condemned to death, you say? To be hanged or hanged. By the neck. Until. Until what? He's dead. Until he'd be dead?

That's the worst possible outcome. On the 23rd of February, 1885, he insisted throughout he was innocent. I insist that he was innocent, or at least that they haven't proven he did it. Do you know what Alistair? His last night. So the night of the 22nd, presumably he dreamt that the trap would fail three times anyway, forget about that for now. Okay.

All right. Hey, are we doing that as a dream sequence? Oh yeah. Just maybe put an owl there or something to let people know that it's a dream and a use a wide angle lens. Okay. I forgot it was a film. You forgot this quickly that it was a film.

And then he's getting, he's getting, it's the actual next day and he's being, you know, all prepped for it. And then it's like the executioner's mate is like, yep, do it. I'm not sure. The executioner's mate? Is that the one that says do it now? Right. And the executioner pulls the lever.

The executioner's just a friend from home. No, I think it's like a plumber's mate. It's an honor roll. It's an honor roll. Oh, right. It's a role. It's a formal role. Yeah.

For safety. The opposite of the best boy is in this case, the worst. The worst boy. The nastiest boy. Speaking of key grips, they pull the lever. Yeah. The trap didn't go down. Oh, a gasp from I assume the crowd. What's going on?

So they have a little look and they get them off and they test the trap and it works. They get back on. They pull the lever. Nothing. What? Nothing happens. They have another look. They really, really look this time.

Test it. Boom. Goes fine. Back on. Pull the lever. Nothing. Oh, the crowd can't believe it. The chaplain intervenes finally and says, we need to postpone this execution.

The thing's not working. Oh gentlemen, gentlemen, do you think we might postpone the execution? And it is postponed indefinitely. And in fact, definitely postponed because he's then given a life sentence. He's commuted. And that's the right word. But I believe he probably then given a life sentence. He's commuted. And he, that's the right word. But I believe he probably stayed in the same place, different sort of commuting. Well, one of them is probably better than the other.

Well, but then you have got a life sentence haven't you? So, yeah, they're kind of similar. Can you listen to a podcast while it's happening? These days, I guess, yes. Are they allowed podcasts in prison? I don't know. This will be very annoying to them. If you're allowed to write.

If they are hearing this in prison. Yeah. Surely they have podcasts in prison. I think there are prison specific podcasts on prison radio. Is that right? Maybe this, maybe we're not that popular in prison. I'm not sure if we're the vibe. Well, maybe we are with this, this true crime. I don't, I just feel like people in guys in prison might get enough of other guys just sort of having the same conversation over and over again.

Maybe they don't need to come to our podcast for that. Maybe. Well, anyway, this guy wrote to the, wrote to the government, wrote to the home secretary and like that after 22 years, he was released. What? So the, the conviction was the conviction ofulled or did they just let him go? I'm not sure. I think it was annulled, but he's done 22 years.

He's basically done a life sentence, but at least he wasn't hanged. And anyway, he was released and he married a nurse from Newton hospital. And according to Theo Brown, the popular opinion at the time considered the woman crazy to take him on. Was a bit of a mistake from that woman because after two years he abandoned her and moved to America and bigamied up with another woman, which was... Because this guy's not your perfect victim. He's not perfect.

Which ironically was not big of him to do. Yeah. You get it? Because of him to do. Yeah. You get it? Cause a big. Yeah. I don't know how you're going to get that pun into the film. I don't know. Could I do my fog joke then about why does a, why does fog have loads of wives?

I don't know. Cause it's a bigger mist. That's very good. I don't think that's going to work in the film. What about if it's like, you know, like voiceover, is that why they say voiceovers not a good thing to have in a film? I think that's why the first thing know, like voiceover, is that why they say voiceover is not a good thing to have in a film? I think that's why the first thing they teach you in film school is don't have a voiceover that just comes in to do puns.

Right. Okay. Well, I think a little guy called Martin Scorsese, Scorsese might have something to say about that. Martin Scorsese. Yes. So this gave rise to a lot of folklore. Yes, so this gave rise to a lot of folklore. So apparently the crowd waiting outside Exeter jail for the hanging saw a flock of doves

hovering over the execution yard and believed that proved Lee's innocence and that the trap failing to work was divine intervention. And then other people think it was witchcraft. Oh, quite late for witchcraft, the 1880s. Yeah, well, Lee's old grandmother who lived at Ogwell. Great name. She was thought to have strange powers and when she learned that Lee was to be executed,

neighbors, and this is Theo Brown's wonderful turn of phrase, neighbors who ventured to commiserate with old Granny Lee all received the same answer. They won't hang him. What did she know, James? Well, according to Estelle Dunsford, before dawn on the day he was to be hung, Granny Lee was seen to leave her cottage and set out towards Exeter. She walked there and took up a position on Rogemont.

How far away from Exeter did she live that she could walk there at her age? I haven't looked up where Ogwell is, but I guess it's near enough. She took up a position on Rogemont overlooking the prison. All day she kept vigil there, never moving or taking her eyes from the prison. Then evening she tramped back home and the village people firmly believed that the failure of the trap to work was due to the power of granny Lee's spell. And when she got home, she told Theo, well, she had told Estelle Dunsford's informant's grandmother that he was safe. They would not be able to harm him now. Case closed.

Yes. Well, not case closed, because in that case, Alistair, who did do it? Ah, I forgot about that. Who did, who did did it? So according to again, Theo Brown, an old man who worked at Barton Hall Estate, a William Brown said his grandmother was a friend of Lee of John Lee's mother and it was a John Lee's half sister was one of the servants in the keys house and a visitor from London took a fancy to the girl and he used to slip into the kitchen

at nighttime as the old lady went to bed. However, one night she suddenly came down to speak to John. I guess this is the servant, John Lee's half sister. So when she opened the door and saw what was going on and recognized someone- I'm sorry. Would you just mind skipping back a little bit? I'm not sure who came downstairs there. No, neither am I. Oh, okay. All right. I can work out who this is that it's referring to. So the grandmother is a friend of John Lee's mother, John Lee's half sister, also a servant at Mrs.

Keys's house 50 50, whether it was Jane or Eliza 50 50, whether it was Jane or Eliza, we'll go with Eliza cause that's a fun name. My money's on Beaver. One of the visitors from London took a fancy to the girl used to slip into the kitchen at nighttime when the old lady went to bed early. However, one night she suddenly came down to speak to John. This must be the old lady suddenly came down. The rule of the last person that was mentioned is the, is the that.

Yeah. It's the old lady suddenly came down and when she opened the door and saw what was going on and recognized someone high up. Yes. She dropped in a fact. They're acting there. It's just, oh, so that was the perfect acting noise I did. That was perfect.

That's enough acting. All right. Someone was afraid of the scandal and got the idea of burning, et cetera. I think the et cetera means- Is that in the book? There's et cetera. Yes. This is the quote.

This is the quote from William Brown. Et cetera? Yes. You can't et cetera a woman to death. That's unacceptable. That's what this guy's suggesting. So the someone that was afraid of the scandal is presumably the someone high up who is having an affair with the servant girl, either Jane or Eliza. Or Beaver. So, and then the old lady sees that faints.

There's someone high up decides the only way out of this is to bludgeon the fainted woman and attempt to cut her throat and then try to burn her. An old fashioned crone bludgeoning. Why would you burn her in the house? Nobody's going to think that, oh, it was probably natural causes where she's set on fire in the middle of the living room. Spontaneous human combustion. I suppose it could be. Could easily be.

That big pile of kindling does seem to undermine that. Does a bit. And they were going to let John take the rap and be hung. But someone told someone higher again. Is there a plan to let him take the rap? Why even set her on fire? Why bother setting her on fire? I don't know. Carry on, carry on. I just don't think that's necessary. Now, Alistair, here's a sentence with three someones in it.

But someone told someone higher again and to clear someone the hanging was rigged. Oh, so he frames John and then feels bad about it? I guess so. Or tells someone higher up and that someone says that, well, you can't let that guy hang for it. So they intervene and save him somehow. But still let him stay in prison for 20 years. Yep. 22. Yeah. 22 years. Well, thank you.

That guy, William Brown also suggested that the cover cover up was staged by the Freemasons, though, and to quote Theo Brown. Yes. This was merely his own idea and had no basis in fact. No, I believe that, yeah. And Alistair. Yeah. A third suspect has entered the arena.

Do you want to hear the third suspect? Yes. OK. A wild animal. Is it an animal? No, it isn't. Is it a traveling vagrant who's passing through the village? They're usually to blame in the olden days. I don't want to say the name because I think this is very scurrilous,

but there is a theory. I think it's on searchusapeople.com or and, or the Babacom and St. Mary Church History Society. These are the other places I found information. What with the AI search results, they've replaced Google in my, in my experience. I just go straight onto the Babacom Church. Babacom and St. Mary Church History Society. They had some good information about this

case. Like what happened to John Lee? There was a short film made about him. He wrote an autobiography called The Man They Could Not Hang. Do we know how that short film started? Maybe with a smash cut? I can only imagine, as I did earlier. And by the way, John Lee dies in 1945 in Milwaukee. You don't want to hear about that. You want to hear about the third theory. Yeah, I do. It's not a vagrant.

It's John Lee's first solicitor who was representing him in the court case. Yeah. His own solicitor. His own solicitor. He can't have been his solicitor before the murder, presumably, because no more people don't have solicitors. No, but this guy withdrew from the case due to illness. What is this guy?

Some kind of conveyance are covered in crumbs? No, it's worse than that, sir. He withdrew from the case from due to illness and died in a sanatorium of, and this is the, obviously the doctors writing at the time, general paralysis of the insane. Oh! I think I mean syphilis. Oh, I see. Yeah.

You think that's a generous euphemism? I think so, yes. I mean, actually, as euphemisms go, it's quite horrible in itself. Usually euphemisms are a bit nicer. General paralysis of the insane sounds pretty bad. Okay. So we've got this guy. He's somewhat unhinged.

He may be syphilitic. Insane sounds pretty bad. Okay, so we've got this guy, he's somewhat unhinged. He may be syphilitic. The rumours that he kind of was talking about killing people and stuff like that as part of his general insane-ness. Right. For want of better words that we probably do have nowadays. But yeah, I mean, this is all rumours, but- Did he have any kind of motive apart from being odd?

Being generally insane. Okay, yeah. The Batman villain motive. Exactly. And in part, the ultimate sort of thing that tipped him over was he had to represent the person who was charged with the crime that he had committed. And that kind of, according to the folklore, is what tipped him over the edge into needing to go to a sanatorium. Oh, right. But we don't know.

He didn't even get him off. No, exactly. He pulled out of the case early and then someone else to Cobra due to illness. So I think really- So he pulled out on a going mad break. Which lasted, unfortunately, the rest of his life. So I think, I mean, I think that's kind of a coincidence. I think that one's definitely the least likely.

It does seem like a stretch. And I don't see the Freemasons hand in it, in this one. So I don't agree because I think it was the Freemasons. But it could have been, to quote William Brown, it could have been someone. It could have been someone. It could have been someone. In fact, you know what, William, it definitely was someone. Yeah. That's possibly a good idea for a podcast.

It definitely was someone. And then we could do cold cases and then just at the BNB, like definitely was someone though, wasn't it? Someone did it. Yep. So Alistair, that is the case of the man they hanged thrice. They did hang him. Oh, actually they didn't hang him once. So the title is quite misleading.

They hanged thrice unsuccessfully. Okay. All right. All right. Yeah. Great story. Great true-ish crime. I mean, I feel bad for the woman who got bludgeoned and set on fire.

It does seem like the work of someone who's not necessarily thinking clearly. Yeah. Yeah. Cause if you're trying to frame someone, then you don't need to try and destroy the evidence, you need to frame them and leave evidence, but burning seems to be an attempt to destroy the evidence, even though it's an attempt to destroy the evidence that isn't likely to work. Cause people are going to notice the fire.

Yeah. So maybe it wasn't the Masons. Maybe, maybe it was someone. I guess it was someone. So you're ready to score it? the fire. Yeah. So maybe it wasn't the Masons. Maybe, maybe it was someone. I guess it was someone. So you ready to score it? Oh yeah. Yeah. Alrighty then let's kick straight off with naming.

Names. Okay. Can you remind me of some of them? Uh, Babakham. First of all, The Man They Hang Thrice, great title. Bit of a stretch, but really good story title. Well done. The Man They Could Not Hang is his own title.

And then I think the name of the silent film. Ah, nah, it's good. They could not hang his own title, and then I think the name of the silent film. Ah, no, that's good. They could have hanged him. Babachem, Holicum. Yep, Babachem, Holicum. Emma Anne Whitehead-Keys, Elizabeth Harris. Remind me, was there a servant girl called Beavers? No, unless...

Was there a servant girl called Beaver? Unless I'm going to get docked points. That's a pity. No, I'm not saying one way or the other. It would be wrong to comment on an ongoing case. So I can't say one way or the other. John Lee, very generic name. He's going to fit right in Milwaukee with his Gen Am name, John Lee. Well, that's one of the things, the reasons he's kind of hard to trace,

cause he was kind of famous, but a lot of people have that name. So it kind of, there's a lot of people who sort of have claimed to be him over the years, but it's pretty much sure that it's the guy that died in 1945 in Milwaukee. And in fact, it's such a generic name that his Wikipedia is John Babakum Lee. Oh, that's cool. I guess that's why John Lee Hooker needed the hooker. Otherwise people would have been confused. Barely know her. Of course that's French. Anyway. John Lee didn't bludgeon knife and burner.

Yeah, I dunno. I, this is some good names. I think it's quite a low score though. I think it's creeping around a two, I'm afraid. I like all the Coombs. I like Boomcombe or whatever it was called. Butcombe. Butcombe.

The house was called The Glen. The Glen. These are so generic. That's the name of a house. The Glen. That's terrible. Yeah, it's inaccurate. No, I think it's a two. I think it's a two. Ah, fine then. And one of those points is for the title of the man they hanged thrice.

Aye, aye, aye. Okay. I think I'm going to add here as well. Supernatural. Zero. Wait. There's no supernatural involved. The witch. Oh, wait. You got me. The witch.

You got me with your plotting. You made me forget about the witch who stayed the executioner's hand with the power of her gaze. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. From upon the mount. They won't hang him. On the Rouge mount. She looked Mount. They won't hang in the Rouge Mount. She looked down. They won't hang him. She said, and they didn't hang him. They didn't. They didn't. And no. Yeah.

Okay. Fair enough. Great, great witchy powers. Yeah. It's the only supernatural feature in the story though. So I think it's probably a three. God? Is God supernatural? Is God supernatural? Well, there's the Holy Ghost, he's quite spooky. Because God came down and stopped the trapdoor according to the witnesses who saw the flock of doves. Yeah, I just don't think you can have both of them. Either a witch did it or God did it. Okay. Like someone in the House of Lords connived to have it happen. Someone. Or it was some kind of mechanical failure.

Yeah. I suppose those are the options all equally likely. So. So it's three, I think. It's a three out of five for Supernatural. All right. Some good witch business, but that was it. Now I've got, I've got one here.

Okay. We've got a third category coming. Methods of killing. Okay. We've got a third category coming. Methods of killing. Okay. Right. Yes. Because this is a killer that will not be boxed in. Exactly. Not be typecast.

No. Bonk on the head. Boom. One. Slash the throat. Two. Kindling. Get the kerosene. Three.

Get the fire lighters. Three. And? Get that. That little thing for lighting a stove. You know the... Yeah, the long lighter. From back when Hobbes didn't have it built in. And it used to just release the gas into the room and you had to go...

Really quickly... Right. And then to top it up to a tasty five, we've got hanging... Oh yeah, I forgot. And that is state sanctioned murder, isn't it? What is an execution but murder? Exactly. Exactly. It's just murder with an audience. So how many have we got there?

We've got six. Bonk slash burn. Bonk slash burn, hang, hang, and hang again. Oh, he's going to say you can't have all three hangings, but of course you can. It's the man they hang thrice. Five out of five. Yes. I'm glad we weren't doing Ludo rules.

Oh yeah, well we don't bounce back. No, no, we do not bounce back. We're very thin skinned. And finally, from a final category, someones. Yeah, actually, there were a lot of someones. A lot of vaguely unnamed people. I think that was a thing the writers used to do to give the impression that the story was definitely true. It was not named the people in it because they were so well known in the area. If they were to give Morgan a letter of their name, everyone would be like, oh, it's Ron. And

know immediately who it is. It's Ron who saw a ghost. Oh yeah. That's the one who saw a ghost. Now let us disrespect him. So who have we got? We've got the someone who was well connected. Yes, who slipped into the kitchen. We've got the confusion of the she that suddenly came down to speak to John, who opened the door and recognized someone and she drops in a faint. Then someone was afraid of the scandal and got the idea of burning, et cetera. I think, I think that's the same someone three times. But someone told someone higher.

This is the man they summoned thrice. Someone told someone higher again and to clear someone. Now we've definitely got a second someone here. So that someone is telling someone even higher up than the first someone. Let's call them someone A and someone B. And to clear someone, the hanging was rigged. That someone is John, Lee. Is it? Right. Or is it to clear the conscience of the first someone? James, you're on about two someones.

No, I could be three or four. I just think you're deliberately misreading the text to create more someones. The someone is the same person each time. Well, I think someone's being a little stingy with their scores. All right. So I guess I'm a someone now. Is that what you're saying? So that's that's an extra someone. Mm hmm.

Yes, somebody. Somebody did it. Someone must have. Someone must have done all the crimes. Mm hmm. Someone must have rigged the gallows. Yeah. Yeah, true.

And in a way, isn't everyone someone? I believe that they can be someone. Four out of five. So, so, so four. Darn, darn. Fair enough. And that's very generous. That is very generous for a category that had basically one guy in it.

At someone? I thought you might have taken the one of someone. I've just gave me some. Yeah, it's not some five. Ah, too late. A sum total of one. You should have got one there, James, but you had like a stay of execution. The trap didn't open.

Thank goodness. Four times. Let's test it. And then the fifth time it did. So it's four. I thought you might like that one because it had a little bit of true crime. Yeah, it was very good. And it had a little bit of the past and it had someone doing something bad. We just don't know.

We just don't know. We just don't know. And Alistair, if people want to hear some bonus bits, they can go to patreon.com forward slash lawmenpod and they can join us. Thank you very much to all the people that do already support us via that medium. If you don't want to do that right now, if you've enjoyed it, leave us a lovely review or recommend in person to a real life person. It's got to be in person.

Some of you might have to make a friend, but then recommend it to them. Exactly. I'm not sure about that as an analogy, because like I'm against capital punishment, but I don't know that I want to stop people from pooing. Yeah, I don't think you've thought that through. I don't think I did.