Loremen Podcast - S1 Ep2: Loremen S1 Ep2 - Tom, Dick and Harry and Blue Cap

Episode Date: December 28, 2017

We meet the original Tom, Dick and Harry (well, not exactly), and a gritty northern poltergeist. Loreboys nether say die! Check the sweet, sweet merch here... https://www.teepublic.com/stores/loremen-podcast?ref_id=24631 Support the Loremen here (and get stuff): patreon.com/loremenpod ko-fi.com/loremen @loremenpod www.twitch.tv/loremenpod www.instagram.com/loremenpod www.facebook.com/loremenpod

Welcome to Lawmen, the podcast about local legends and obscure curiosities from days of yore. I'm James Shakeshaft. And I'm James's friend and confidant, Alastair Beckett-King. In each episode, we unearth pieces of forgotten folklore and hold them up to the searing light of our completely arbitrary scoring system and now a story of three banditos this particular tale is one i think we may have touched on before i'm not sure it survived the edit when we were talking about popper bayliss and his um made up ghost story i remember popper bayliss uh and we're talking about witchwood forest a local area to me uh which i'm very fascinated with it's rich with legend

and and myth this is the story of the dunsden brothers, Tom, Dick and Harry. That is their actual names. Their actual names. The eldest, Richard, was born in 1745. And then there's a Thomas and a Henry nicknamed to Harry. So Tom, Dick and Harry. Incidentally, I looked into this as well. They're not the origin of Tom, Dick and Harry. That had first been said on record in 1657 by an English theologian, John Owen.

He told a governing body at Oxford University that our critical situation and our common interests were discussed out of journals and newspapers by every Tom, Dick and Harry. Now, as the quote doesn't go on to say, and by which I mean any old person. It's fair to assume that... Yeah, it was good enough to be brought in front of Oxford University. And I imagine they're pretty strict. Yeah, when it comes to sayings.

Yeah, so that's a saying that's been around for ages. So it's just a coincidence that these guys happened to... Either very stupid, very silly or quite brave parents maybe. Maybe they were like, we like these names they started with richard and harry yeah so they chose the names tom dick and harry yes deliberately i guess so they started with richard so they do what they didn't go into it they didn't name the firstborn thomas thinking if we do have two more we can go with this so maybe they they richard and then they had the second and they

were like oh thomas is a lovely name and they're like hold on we've got tom and dick another one came along we're gonna have to call him harry yeah or they did or they called him harry and then realized like a week later and by that time it was too late so yeah they were yeoman uh which they meant they had a little bit of land within witchwood forest but they these three boys they they went bad and took to the forest they had a little cottage in icam with an underground passage that led to a cave in the woods which is where they'd store their horses and gold so that's pretty darn cool already yes they've got everyone wanted a secret passage in the house, right? Presumably.

Oh, I spent most of my childhood thinking about secret passages. Did you look or just think about them? I just thought about them. I was very much an armchair secret passage explorer. Now, these guys, they drank at the Bird in Hand at Capps Lodge, which was a notorious tavern, notorious for its gambling and cockfighting. Don't look for it. It's no longer there.

But if you were to look for it, you would still find the cockpit, which is in the grounds. Sorry, is a cock? A cockpit is where they would have cockfights. Oh, right. It's in, you know, Henry V, talking about the battleground. The cockpit also refers to the theatre, because they also had cockfighting in the theatre.

So that's a play on words from... Classic Shakespeare. He also referred to Tom, Dick and Harry actually going back to the origins of the name. But I think he changed it. It was Tom, Dick and Francis. So Tom, Dick and Franny. That's not really got a... He liked to make it his own though, didn't he?

Or he remembered things inaccurately. So these guys, they were petty robbers they'd you know they'd they'd rob farmers coming home from market but then they hit the big time when they robbed the oxford to gloucester coach of 500 pounds wow because i think if you robbed a megabus now you'd be lucky to get 500 pounds out of the people on board 500 pounds then which i did i had a look at a place on the internet that tells you how much money was worth in the past and it's worth between two thirds and three quarters of a million pounds in today's money uh this being early 2017 i think it's worth mentioning yeah of course um the whole concept of money could have been rendered

incomprehensible by the time we finish editing this yes and that made them wildly notorious but they get two thirds and three quarters of a million but it's still it's a lot of money £500 in that said I've no idea what period this is set but in those days whatever they were the oldest one was born in 1745

1745 so I took it as being 1770 for the oldest one so he's 25 the youngest one unless they're twins is you know

probably 22 at that age that's kind of that's when you would turn well that's that's the kind of time when people had like £100 a year

didn't they and you could live off that that's the amount that's loads of money a lot of money loads of money that didn't mean an end to their criminal ways. That's just what made them notorious.

And then they planned to rob Tangley Manor while the squire was away. But they were overheard planning this at Capps Lodge. And the butler of Tangley Manor was warned. He called the constables. It's what you would do. The constables and the butler waited silently on the night

that the Dunstan brothers were due to rob the manor. And they waited by the heavy stout oak door, which had one of those shutters in it. It's a peephole, but that gives the wrong impression, I think. Nowadays, a peephole is a very small thing, piece of glass that makes people look a bit silly. In those days, that was quite a big shutter that you would slide open in order to have a look at who was coming trying to get into your house

now as it was approaching midnight the shutter slowly slid back as it's being open from the outside and an arm reached in it was one of the Dunstans feeling around for a key that was supposed to be hanging there and their butler grabbed the arm and tied it to the handle of the door there were they the constables and the butler heard the sound of muttered oaths from outside and then distinctly the words cut cut and some muffled cries and then the arm fell into the house wholesale the severed arm fell into the house and presumably the constables and the butler took a little a few seconds to their bluff had very much been called at that point open the door and the dunstans were gone there was a small trail of blood but they couldn't follow it because it was too dark and then when next they're seen the

dunstan brothers there's only two there's only tom and harry so it was believed to be richard who put his arm through well tom and harry the that were there, it's not mentioned that they only had one arm. So, yeah, it was... Yeah, Richard presumably bled to death. Poor bugger. Well, he'd been robbing quite a lot of people. He was trying to rob the Squire. Yes.

But that's... I was hoping that when they came back, none of them would have any arms. Yeah. So that nobody will ever know which of them it was. Oh, yes. Therefore, prosecution would be impossible. I think in those days, they'd have probably just killed them all.

Yes, they would, wouldn't they? Now, yeah, and Tom and Harry remained at large until their capture in 1784. Now, before we get into their capture, I want to tell a little tale. This is a little side bit which is a little confusing, to be honest, and I'm not sure. During this foiled robbery was it an armed robbery i don't know because at one point yes and then subsequently no it became slightly less arm become a one-armed robbery yeah these one-armed bandit one-armed bandit yeah he

would have been a one-armed bandit that's reallydog died. That's really a real shame that he died. There was a labourer from Milton-under-Wichwood nearby who was working at a neighbouring farm, and he'd been brought in as some muscle to help protect Tangley Manor, and he had a blunderbuss, and he fired it from an upper window at the departing Dunsden Brothers. Tom and Harry got to find out who did this. They knew his name and where he worked, and their motto was an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. So they waylaid this guy as he was walking home. They said, where's such

and such who works at this place? And the guy realised they didn't know who he was. Now what he did, he pretended that they were on the wrong track and that the man that he wanted was already at work. And so they set off to find him. And now, according to the story, as fast as he ever could travel, the guy ran to where he told them to go. And he got, as they say,

he just got into his cottage when the men of vengeance arrived. This is literally the next sentence. I'm not omitting anything. They did not, however, do anything but went off what and all it was is that the the hero of the piece uh was afraid to go to work until they were arrested that isn't that story makes no sense no and i now thinking this is another of these Witchwood Forest-based lies. Because he didn't go to work after... So he shot them out the window and then stayed off work until they were hanged. I think he was a little bit annoyed that they got hanged. Yeah, because he's...

I mean... He's skiving. To realise they don't know who I am. But I'd better be honest and tell them where I actually live. And then run and get there before they do. And then he got there and then they came, but they did nothing and they went off. And then he was like, well, I can't come into work today

because there's some banditos out to get me. Yeah, that is a lie. That's a bad lie as well. It probably started out, I've an idea that they know that it was me that shot at them. And you know their catchphrase is an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. They didn't invent that. Well, I'm not coming in today.

They really should have chopped someone's arm off if that was their catchphrase. Yeah. The butler should have chopped the butler's arm off. Yeah. And then the guy had to say, oh, I bumped into him and so I knew that they were after me. It was like, well, why didn't they kill you there? And he said, because I pretended that I wasn't me. And then I told them where I worked and then ran to that place.

Confusing. So Tom and Harry got caught because they were gambling at Cap's Lodge, which it sounds like that's not what they got caught for. That was illegal. But Cap's Lodge, as we've... Just an incidental crime. Yeah. While they were there,

they bragged that no one would... Now, again, I want to get this exactly right. They're quoted as bragging that no one wouldn't take them, which is annoying for its double negative. And the landlord jokingly said, well, I could take the pair of you. And there was some horseplay.

He pretended to get them. The Dunstans pull a gun and shoot him. Fortunately, he's got a load of cash in his pocket, a load of change, and it ricochets off that. Now, in some reports of this story, the barman's killed, but the main version that I've got didn't seem to bother with that.

So either it didn't happen or... Was the barman killed by a bullet ricocheting off? I hope it was. That's pretty exciting. Yeah, that really adds some spice to the gumbo. seem to bother with that so either it didn't happen was the barman killed by a bullet ricochet i hope it was that's pretty exciting that's yeah that really adds some spice to the gumbo but we'll never know and tom and harry they're waylaid by the people about this is too far i mean you can gamble here sure you can brag about your crimes and you can plan your crimes here you can fight as many cocks out there as you want to, mate, but you don't shoot our landlord. They turned on them, they grabbed them, they were

taken to Gloucester where they were hanged and then they were gibbeted. Is it gibbeted or gibbeted? I think it's gibbeted. Good. Because that's the one I went with first. 50-50. They were gibbeted. They were gibbeted and then gibbeted. I know. And to add insult to

injury. They were gibbeted on Habergallo's Hill, which is right next door to Capps Lodge. So it's a little bit of a warning, I think, to the miscreants that drank there. And until at least the early 1900s, you could see engraved in the bark of the tree, T.D. and H. hd and the year 1784 so that was where they that was the marking they're hanging marking their gibbeting they

were hanging the gloucester and then the bodies brought what is gibbeting is being put in a cage and hanged in a tree right are they already dead are they just nearly dead at that point? It's not a hard and fast rule. I think you can be killed by gibbeting, famously at the beginning of Willow. I think he's being killed by gibbeting. Or you're already killed and then your body is just hung up as a bit of a warning. Yeah, you sort of think that maybe the cage isn't necessary if the person's already dead. Yeah, that's true. I think it's just to keep the bits in yeah i suppose so that's like you just put them in a bag like people do with like dog poo when they scoop it up and then just throw it in a hedge

unnecessarily oh and it hangs it just hangs there yeah warning yeah like um like a poo jibbit oh there's a guy up the road who is awful how much there is in this alley up the road. It's absolutely disgusting. There is clearly a big dog as well. It's horrible. It makes me so angry. I just want to actually... Every time I walk past it, I've now actually had to change my route because it's so disgusting.

It's loads, a lot of poo. Obviously, all the poos this dog is doing is done in this alley. Just in that one alley. In this one alley, yeah. First of all, I wanted to just put a sign up saying,

mate. And I think I'd leave it at that. You might need to go. I think it's pretty obvious. The amount of... Would that be in italics? Oh, yes, definitely.

Fair enough. In that case, it's clear. It might be three or four A's in there as well maybe a white mate or i thought i put in a little pretend camera up there and saying with a sign saying mate you're on camera yeah i'm up in my game but then i think i've decided just a load a putter bags, like a little box dispensary of bags. That is the most passive-aggressive of all of the options.

Yeah, and that's what he brought me to. It's horrible. Anyway, so yeah, that's the story of the Dunstan brothers, very much the Bee Gees of the 18th century crime scene. I remember that time when the Bee Gees were being interviewed by Clive Anderson and he got one of their arms. And they shot him. And Barry Kip didn't like it. Yeah.

Cut it clean off. Yeah. And they never saw Maurice again. So it's time for scores. Yes. Is it Dunsden or Dunsdon, brothers? Dunsdons. It's spelled with an O. Dunsdons. Yes. Is it Dunsden or Dunsdon, brother? Dunsdons. It's spelled with an O.

Dunsdons. Yes. But we would call that the Dunsdons. The Dunsdons. The Dunsdons. The Dunsdons. That's not a stutter. I don't think that's not how people talk around there. But you could sort of say, Dunsdons! Which is how I assume they started their crime.

Definitely. The sight of an arm coming in through an aperture. Just on its own. After that, they went and retrieved the arm and then they would use it to just test the waters in future crimes. So what are your categories for scoring? First up, we'll get it out of the way because it's going to be a low score,

but it's a traditional one. Supernatural. It's a hard cold zero for Supernatural. Most of it's a traditional one supernatural it's a hard cold zero for supernatural most of it's quite plausible it's very natural so it's all completely believable okay then i'll take that zero true crime come on well the flip side of that they're kind of like a proto-british gangster flick protagonist yes that was almost a sentence. It had a lot of words in it. Yeah, it's got proto in it. Yeah.

A nice prefix. What do you want? Yeah, they're a little gangster troop family. A little mafioso. So I think, well, it's a high score for true crime. Big time. It's five, isn't it? It's all true. It's true crime. Big time. It's five, isn't it? It is.

It's all true. It's all crime. It is. And also, apart from that little bit that I think was made up. The thresher. The guy that pretended. I mean, fair play, that's an elaborate story to get out of work. I've not thought of doing that before.

Apart from that obviously made up story by Captain Blunderbuss. Yes. The rest of it sounds like genuine plausible history. Yeah, probably. It may well be. And eventually their crimes caught up with them. I suppose maybe, how easy is it to cut an arm off?

We've all seen the film 128 hours later. What? Yes, that's the film about the man trapped in a crevice with a zombie. I've confused crevice with crevasse as well. a crevice with a zombie yeah I've confused crevice with crevasse as well so is crevice just a tiny

little wrinkle crevice is a bit too small you can't get trapped in a crevice if you were trapped in a crevice if you just your finger I'm trapped in a crevice

you don't need to cut your old arm off for that I think it's a solid five for true crime did we finish off why we were saying about the film 128 Days Later? I can't remember what we were saying.

Yeah, he chops his arm off in there. Oh, yeah. That seemed pretty... He did only use a penknife. But... I think armed guards, the squire's armed guards, could make short work of a burglar's arm. No, they didn't cut his arm off.

Oh, wait, the lads outside. The two brothers did. They'd be carrying weapons, though, wouldn't they? They would have weapons, and I suppose you'd pick a joint. You're not going to try and go through a bone. Do you think they went at the elbow? I would. That's where...

Oh, no, because he's reached right in, so they would have to go in the shoulder, and I imagine that's probably well protected by the body. Oof. But I still think it's believable. Yeah? Yeah, they're ruthless. You don't get £500 from the Oxford to Gloucester coach

by not chopping your own arm off at a pinch. Not being prepared to chop your brother's arm off. By not being prepared to chop your brother's arm off, exactly. Cut, cut. Oh. Yeah, okay. So, what, we got five? Five for true crime.

I was trying to talk you out of giving me points. Yeah, no, no, no. I'm very bad at the point scoring part of this. It is a high scoring category, true crime, which not quite makes up for supernatural. What's next? Secret passages. Secret passages.

What I like about the secret passage more is that they kept horses at the end of it. Because that's kind of sweet and it makes the cave sound nice. And it's gold. And golden horses. Yeah. Gold and... I'd just like to... Gold and horses. So we don't get any emails.

It was gold and horses, not golden horses. No. And as a consequence of it not being golden horses... I've done it again. You've done it again. I'm going to lower that. What would it make quite there aren't many three because there is only one secret passage

whereas the category you gave me was secret passages stupid so yeah so I'm going to say three so an average

an average number of secret passages above average or the average would be none or would the average be none are you saying

that there may be more and I don't know well they're secret okay so if we imagine that secret passages are actually... Ten a penny. I'm talking about... The fact that there's only one in this story. It's down to two. It's down to two now, James.

Hold your tongue, Shrinkshaw, after you're doing well. So that is two for secret passages due to the below average number of secret passages in the story. Okay. Dismemberment. I think we've covered that perhaps with the true crime. There's only one dismemberment in the story, but it's so good that I'm giving it four.

That's very generous. Thank you. There you go. But he's still got his other arm. Yeah. There's six. There's five arms that haven't been chopped off. Could have had a whole gibbet just with arms.

Yeah. Naming, my favourite. Naming is a good category. None of the names are outlandish, but... Tom, Dick and Harry, come on. The audacity of naming your criminal trio children Tom, Dick and Harry, that's got to score highly. That might have turned them to crime.

But the name sort of implies that they're commonplace, that they're just, you know... But we know that they're actually quite unusual. It's almost a front, the name. Tom, Beck and Harry suggests three ordinary guys. Yeah. And in reality, secret criminals passage full of golden horses, if I recall correctly.

Or is it a comment on society saying that... Nearly choked on my own tea. Yeah, the profundity. The profundity got me right in the back on my own tea. Yeah, the profundity. The profundity got me right in the back of the throat there. Yeah, me too. So I think for naming, I think it's four. Yeah! To meet the real Tom, Dick and Harry, that's a treat.

Yes, I agree. So, there's no point actually adding those up. I think you talked yourself out of a higher score there. I think that's a decent but not quite as spectacular score as it could have got considering there's nothing ghostly or supernatural in it

I think it's compelling it has a compelling for a bit of social history it's a really nice story for a story about any old Tom, Dick or Harry so next time actually you hear someone, your nan say any old Tom, Dick or Harry. So next time, actually, you hear someone, your nan, say, any old Tom, Dick or Harry, think, yeah, cut your arm off, nan.

As soon as they look at you. In this next story, the lawmen take you deep into the bowels of the earth. Well, about a mile deep. Which is... It's deep. Would you like to hear a story from Shillbottle Colliery in Northumberland? Shillbottle Colliery? Shillbottle Colliery. Yes, I would,illbottle Colliery? Shillbottle Colliery.

Yes, I would, please. I keep saying Northumbria, which doesn't exist, but it's the old name for the place. But it's Northumberland. So if I say Northumbria, I'm sorry. I've messed this up already, haven't I? Ruined, yeah. Ruined with a bit of confusing nomenclature at the start.

So this is a story from Shillbottle Colliery, and it is the story of a bogle called Blue Cap or Blue Bonnet. Bonnet being a kind of cap. This is sort of a ghost of some kind of spirit who works as a... My understanding of a bogle is that it's a dance. Oh, I've never heard of the dance bogle. To bogle is put your hands on your knees and then move in your bottom very provocatively to music.

It's not that, as far as I can tell from this account of folklore. I think it's quite different. It's far from a sexy dance. Well, I'm not sure I'm buying into it. It's more like a poltergeist because it appears to be mostly invisible, but it's not quite a poltergeist because it's partly visible. At least it's not quite a poltergeist because it's partly visible at least it's cap presumably well i don't want to spoil it what happened was he worked in the colliery as a putter a putter was someone who pushed the the trams or pulled

them around so he would actually work in the colliery and there's an account from the colliery guardian in 1863 which explains sometimes the miners would perceive a light blue flame flicker through the air and settle on a full coal tub which immediately move towards the rolly way or rolly way which i sort of think is how they pronounce railway or just roll rolly way it is a rolly way isn't it a? A railway. Is that... No. That's not where the word comes from. It's the rails. Rails is whatever. Anyway, it moved towards the rolly way, as if impelled by the sturdiest sinews in the working.

Industrious Bluecap required, and rightly, to be paid for his services, which he modestly rated as those of an ordinary average putter. Therefore, once a fortnight, Bluecap's wages were left for him in a solitary corner of the mine. If they were a farthing below his due the indignant Bluecap would not pocket a stiver if they were a farthing above his due

indignant Bluecap left the surplus revenue where he found it and that is very unusual apparently to pay a ghost to pay a ghost

it is very unusual even in the context of ghosts and goblins and a sort of helpful household spirit paying them is really unusual. Sometimes

they get fed, but giving people money or clothes in particular almost never happens. I think traditionally giving them clothes is the way to get rid of them. Often unintentionally, because sometimes they were helpful. So this guy was helpful, but by paying him, yeah, he stayed and he worked there. And you couldn't even get rid of him by underpaying him?

No, he would just be annoyed and not pocket a stiver, which is an old coin. But I think the sad thing about this is the mines have all closed now and so doubtless this guy is down the Jobcentre Plus. Taking not a

penny more with his Jobseeker's Allowance. But I think it's worth looking into because it might be a first case of an actual ghost being found fit to work, which is believable. That's my bit of satire. Yeah. Stick it to him.

Take that. In fairness, he was actually fit to work in this particular instance. Presumably, he's not like the ghost of a collier or anything like that. He is a separate entity. Yeah, he's more of a magical sprite, I think, who just happens to work in a colliery. But presumably he was around before the collieries, so, like, sure, now he's unemployed, but he was unemployed for thousands of years before,

and he hadn't even had the idea of a purpose. I suppose only a few sprites are lucky enough to have a brief job at a colliery. I do feel bad for the guy, the blue to have a brief job at a colliery. I do feel bad for the guy. Blue cap. What was he called? Blue cap or blue bonnet. Blue cap, blue bonnet. He's a very unusual type of

spirit and very unusually was paid to work in heavy industry, which is quite strange. Like how did they realise that he needed payment? Because what did he do if he was underpaid? He would just not take the money. There was no other repercussions. As far as I'm aware, no.

He was a very helpful spirit. So how did they notice that? They must have, off their own back, thought, we're getting a lot of help from this blue cap or blue bonnet, sure. We really should pay him. And then after a while, they thought, he doesn't know how much he's being paid. We'll just take a few farthings less. we really should pay him. And then after a while I thought should we maybe take him he doesn't know how much

he's being paid we'll just take a few a few farthings less. Oh he hasn't taken a stiver the next morning they realised. Perhaps we should pay him more. That's a crazy kind of logic

you've got to wonder why the colliery went out of business. Well hold on hold on I'm not having you pin the closure of the mines on northern it wasn't mainly the closure of the mines on northern... It wasn't mainly ghosts that closed the mines.

They were undercutting everyone. These scab ghosts. Yeah. It doesn't say whether he stopped working during the strikes. Exactly. Or whether he, based on his... He was highly principled and refused to be over or underpaid. So presumably, I can't see him scabbing.

No, no. Not all blue cap he's with the guy he's one of the guys he's a putter on the roll away so what do you reckon for score

scoring right spookiness spookiness it's high and low yeah because it's got

a proper ghost throughout yeah but he's not a proper ghost throughout. Yeah. But he's not a very scary ghost. He's quite helpful. There's no threat. There's no peril. It's actually quite helpful.

Yeah, and as we've said, the worst that would happen is nothing. He doesn't do it. He still turns up at work the next day. But wait a minute. He's getting the price of a full putter's wage. Yes. He's not really doing a full day's work. How much does he

do? Sometimes. Yeah. Let's just say sometimes. Is that the work of an average putter?

I suspect that occasionally just floating in and moving one cart, sorry, coal tub, is not quite as much work as the average putter.

No wonder they put the money in the circuit. That's why he's off having a little fag. So is that the blue flame?

Really dangerous in a mine. That's why he's vaping is little fag. So is that the blue flame? Really dangerous in a mine. That's why he's vaping is the blue light, so you know. Of course, that makes sense. So spookiness is probably only a two, you think, for spookiness? I'm trying to think of any category that this will score highly on. I mean, naming. Naming is a good category. Blue cap is good.

Rolly way is good. So blue cap slash blue bonnet. Yes. Great names. The word putter, stiver. Rolly way? cap is good rolly way is good so blue cap slash blue bonnet yes great names the word putter stiver rolly way so in terms of cool words

what do you reckon way high four four okay four four point five four

I don't think I don't stand by decimal points otherwise we should just do it out of ten I'll round it down to three ah no I won't stand by decimal points. Otherwise, we should just do it out of ten. I'll round it down to three.

No. I won't accept a penny more or less than four, inspired by Bluecap. Yeah, all right. Yeah, four's good. Four. Working class hero category. Very high. Very high.

Four, five? Four or five out of five 5 4 or 5 out of 5 you have just invented a category and you like to give it a 5 yeah that's what the

categories are for ok alright so it's 5 out of 5 for working class hero for working class heroics

if you're down a mine and a little blue flame appears that's bad flames and mines don't go together I don't think so but what a nice treat to discover that That's bad. Flames and minds don't go together.

I don't think so. But what a nice treat to discover that it's actually just pulling its weight. A flame appears and things move seemingly by themselves. Might it not be a small explosion? These sort of things, like a will-o'-the-wisp is a naturally occurring flame that appears in a bog that lures people to their death. You're warned against it, right? Yeah. Normally a will-o'-the-wisp is a bad thing.

You don't want to follow it. But there is also a natural explanation for what that is. But the myth sort of also serves as a protection for people just wandering off into a marsh. Because basically that means it's marsh ground, so you might drown, sink and drown if you followed the will-o'-the-wisp. Whereas this is saying that flames in mines, that's cool. marsh ground so you might drown sink and drown if you followed the will of the wisp whereas this

is saying that flames in mines that's cool they're here to help us that sounds like that was invented by a shoddy or evil colliery owner who just wanted his staff to shut up about and the small explosions that would sometimes happen down the mine so So it's old Bluecap, give him some money. Not too much. A canary dies in the mine and everyone runs. You've turned this all around, like 12 Angry Men to begin with. We were both in agreement that Bluecap was a good thing. And now you're persuading me that it's a scam.

Yeah, I don't know whether he's some sort of company shill or working class hero. So maybe working class hero points. Maybe we've got to take some away. Are you shaving off working class hero points? I mean, I'd love to shave 0.5 off. Because if you're a conspiracy, well, it's not possible. They come off in full units. So it's three.

No decimals here. Three on working class hero just in case he was working with management in order to cover up safety problems. Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying, Alistair. Well, that is a body blow for me. And probably... For someone that doesn't even have a body as well. He's just a cap.

Yeah, I don't know. That is going to be very bad news for the people of Shillbottle. Wow. For them to be betrayed by one so trusted. I just call it as I see it. Sorry, blue top. Blue cap.

Whatever. It might have been nice for him to have a sense of purpose during his, as we said, during his infinite lifespan, he had a sense of purpose for a bit. Alternatively, that might have been annoying he had to have a job. It might have been interesting for the first couple of weeks, but a couple of hundred years or whatever it would have been,

that would have been a little tiresome. Because a job's fun. New jobs are fun for the first couple of weeks. And then once you've learned how to do your job, your job becomes boring. Far be it from me to criticise you, James, but I think maybe your and my experience of jobs might be different

than the experience of working in mines in the 19th century. I'm not sure it was one of those things that, oh, it's quite fun for your first couple of days when you're 11, but after that it gets a little boring. I think anything's fun for two weeks, maybe, apart from... Even working in a Victorian mine. Fun for two weeks.

Well, I think that sad note is the end of the story of Bluecap, the corporate shill. I've got some stuff in, I've got a basement and it's got bad down there. I've just been putting stuff in boxes and then putting it

in the basement and that is my ticking time bomb of the house. Are you offering a job to Bluecap? I'm saying if he likes working underground moving stuff around so once again the solution is just for people to leave the northeast and come to the south in order to find work instead of investing in northern infrastructure i'll pay him exactly the amount of money exactly the or maybe i'll just underpay him because then i'll never have to pay him. Do I have to register in PAYE and will he need a workplace pension?

No, because he'll live forever. You have been listening to lawmen the lawmen are alistair beckett king and james shakeshaft if you enjoyed lawmen please rate and subscribe in all the usual places if you didn't enjoy lawmen we'll chop your arm off