Loremen Podcast - S1 Ep8: Loremen S1 Ep8 - The Lambton Worm and Saint Kenelm

Episode Date: February 8, 2018

In the final episode of Loremen Series 1, our intrepid hosts tackle the Lambton Worm and uncover murder on the mean streets... of Winchcombe. Loreboys nether say die! Check the sweet, sweet merch here... https://www.teepublic.com/stores/loremen-podcast?ref_id=24631 Support the Loremen here (and get stuff): patreon.com/loremenpod ko-fi.com/loremen @loremenpod www.twitch.tv/loremenpod www.instagram.com/loremenpod www.facebook.com/loremenpod

Welcome to Lawmen, the podcast about local legends and obscure curiosities from days of yore. I'm James Shakeshaft. And I'm James's priest and confessor, Alastair Beckett-King. Our first tale is really a very famous legend from Washington. Our first tale is really a very famous legend from Washington. All right. I'm about to tell you an extremely, extremely famous story. I think it might be the... Because we're supposed to do obscure stories,

but this is extremely famous in County Durham. Right. And it's the story... Don't sneer at that. You don't realise how famous this story Durham. Right. And it's the story of... Don't sneer at that. You don't realise how famous this story is. Okay. It's the story of the lantern worm. Have you heard the story of the lantern worm?

It does ring a bell. From when I've told you about it in the past, possibly. Maybe. It sounds... Is it... Is there like a lantern... Is there like a lantern pie or something? Is there some sort of food?

Or has it just got lamb in it that makes me think of food? I think that's it. There is no lambton pie. Okay. Do not look for a lambton pie in the story. Because it's made out of worms. It is disgusting. The story of the lambton worm is incredibly, incredibly popular in the Northeast.

And it's one of those things that, in fact, you don't realise isn't famous across the whole world. And that will come up in the Northeast. And it's one of those things that, in fact, you don't realize isn't famous across the whole world. And that will come up in the story, our belief that this is really famous. The show begins with young Lambton, who is the son of Lord Lambton, a local nobleman. And he was what is in the Northeast referred to as a bad lad, a reet wrongan. The kid. The kid, young Lambton. He's a young adult, a teenager, a classic naughty, rebellious teenager.

And the story takes place in Washington, D.C., by which I mean Durham County. Oh. An area called Washington, which is no longer in Durham, but I think was part of Durham at this time. So it's somewhere between Newcastle, Sunderland and Durham, if you can imagine that, the triumvirate of the three great cities of the North East. Yeah, there's three. They make a triumvirate.

Are they all in a line on the coast? They're not in a line. Sunderland's for... Yeah, Sunderland, Newcastle, Aberdurham's not. Okay. And so we're in Washington. And on Sunday morning, when everyone else was going to church, young Lambton instead went out fishing in the Weir,

which is the river that runs through Durham. The Weir? The Weir. W-E-A-I. It's the name of the river. That must be confusing for the water people. I think there is a Weir in the river. The Weir Weir? I don't think we call it that. What is a Weir? A Weir is like,

I think, I'm not sure what its use is. I don't know if it's to slow down a river or something. It's like a half dam, I think. A We not sure what its use is. I don't know if it's to slow down a river or something. It's like a half dam, I think. A weir. Weir. Imagine Peter Weir at the Weir Weir. Being weird.

I don't know whether there's a weir in the weir. I may never know. Well, it's impossible to ask anyone. You sound, they'd laugh you out. Is there a weir weir? Is there a weir weir here? Luckily, nobody in Durham talks like that. The weir weir is over there.

In Durham, it's got two syllables, so it's weir. So it's proper weir in the River Weir. How would you say, where's the weir weir? Where's the weir weir? Where's the weir weir? Where's the weir weir? Where's the weir weir? You haven't even let me get to the inciting incident in this story before you've already mocked the Durham accent, which is going to come up again. So he goes fishing in the weir,

and every time he catches something he's not happy with, he curses the day, he curses the river, he curses possibly God himself, I can't remember. And the people going to church are listening and going, on a Sunday morning, you know, swearing like that at the river. Terrible behaviour. Swearing like that at the river. And then he pulls up a reet ugly fish, a worm, in fact,

the ugliest thing he's ever seen. And he says that it looks like he's pulled up the devil himself to an old man, and an old man going past goes, oh, yeah. Because the people recording this felt like it was necessary to have a witness for that bit. The old man going past says, sorry, what's that, mate? Says devil, shouldn't you be in church? Shut up. And so he goes, oh, this is horrible.

And he can't be bothered taking it home, so he throws it down a well. That's the beginning of the story. At this point, I'm going to, and this is to my great embarrassment, I'm going to have to sing the next bit of the story. Oh, God. Yeah.

Not just your embarrassment. I know. I can't sing, so we might cut this. So the story is best known in the Northeast because it was immortalized in pantomime in the 19th century. And I feel like I've seen some of the podcast stats, so I know we have some listeners who aren't from the UK. So I think I have to explain what a pantomime is.

It's like if you took Commedia dell'arte crossed with like Weimar Germany cabaret, like the film Cabaret, crossed with an offensive 70s sitcom, but for children. With throwaway sweets. You get free sweets. So it's a bit like vaudeville,

like in a musical form of entertainment. Big, huge in the 19th century, still popular now, but not that popular. It's more, nowadays it's more a vessel for people that used to be on Gladiators. Yeah, and soap opera actors in there

the sad tail end yeah i actually when i was we're working as a cameraman we did a bunch of interviews at a launch of like some panto group that did loads of different ones and they were all the stars were there in dressed in costume i can't remember where in in somewhere in london and they're all there. There was, it was a gang's guy, Ross Kemp. Ross Kemp? Ross Kemp was there,

dressed as like, barren, hard up or something. Kim and Aggie. Oh yeah. As the ugly sisters? That's rather offensive. That'd be a bit rude. Yeah,

but they are also awful, awful people. And they probably were wicked in some, they were, they were the, maybe they were, actually no, because they did a cleaning program, they were fairies like cleaning up fairies um mickey and jane rooney

oh i think his wife's name was jane definitely mickey rooney wow and his wife i mean he's a proper star i think that is the most famous person i've ever met you have name dropped all over my story yeah sorry now i'm gonna be better than Nicky Rooney, just as Buttons. So, from the Lambton Worm song, which is sung in my school many a time. That's what I was trying to distract from, yeah. Yeah, I'm sorry. I'm still going to have to sing it. And if it doesn't work, I'll just read it.

The Lambton Worm Song. On Sunday morning, Lambton went a-fishing in the weir and catched a fish upon his hook. He thought it very queer. But what a kind of fish it was, Lambton couldn't tell. He wouldn't be fast to carry it, yam, so he hoid it doona well. Yeah. So that's the bit that I've just told you.

Hoid, of course, his throat. Wouldn't be fast, just couldn't be bothered. These are all words that are still used in the North East he wouldn't be fashed to carry it yam so he hoid it doona well

and then the chorus which is a bit everybody loves is weeshed lads had your gobs I'll tell you a sarl

and our full story weeshed lads had your gobs and I'll tell you boot the worm and it tells you something about the North East that the chorus of a song

has to be guys just shut up for a minute I'm trying to tell something about the North East, that the chorus of a song has to be, guys, just shut up for a minute. I'm trying to tell you about the worm. And they have to repeat that twice. Exactly. Just shut up. Please. It's a panto.

I've written a panto. Shut up. That's the whole chorus in between every verse. So that's been clear. He couldn't be bothered to carry it home, so he hoisted it down a well. He couldn't be bothered. He couldn't be bothered to carry it home, so he hoisted it down a well. He couldn't be bothered. He couldn't be bothered to carry it home, so he hoisted it down a well.

What happens next is, well, two things happen. The story splits. Lambton goes off to fight in foreign wars. Lambton reforms himself and goes off and joins the Crusades. Right. Because going away to kill Muslims is considered an awful lot better than fishing on a Sunday. It's a terrible crime of fishing on the wrong day. And swearing at a river.

It's much better than going off to just kill people overseas in the Holy Land. So that's what he did. Meanwhile, the worm, according to the song, and I think this is some of the best lyricism. I'm just going to read this. Some of the best lyricism you're going to hear. But the worm got fat and growled and growled and growled an awful size. That's three times it grew.

So it grew and grew and grew in the sweet water of the well. Sorry, North East and lyrics. Calls to mind PJ and Duncan from Let's Get Ready to Rumble. They boast... A.K.A. Anton Deck for younger listeners. Yeah. They boast that they have so many lyrics, they're frightened to use them. The next line, so many lyrics, they're frightened to use them. The next line,

so many lyrics. We've got them in stores. Oh, those crazy cats. Nice ref. To this day, people in the North East still laugh. Ha ha, ha ha, ha ha. So, the worm got big enough that it could crawl out of the well, and it coiled itself around

a stone in the middle of the weir. And at night time, it would come out. It would suck the milk out of cows. It had nine holes down the sides of its face. That's an ugly detail. And it would eat sheep and bairns, which means kids, in their beds. Oh, God. And my favourite version of the story is a very milk-obsessed worm.

From the Monthly Chronicle of uh north county law and legend 1888 uh we have the phrase um it sucked milk of the cows of their milky treasure which i really like i think that's lovely milk aka milk to get to use it to apply the adjective milky to milk, it's almost tautology. So the main story was recorded in 1820 by Robert Surtees, which is a properly good Northeastern name, in the history and antiquities of the County Palatine of Durham. The worm started to terrorise people. After eating kids, it's that.

Oh, yeah, yeah. That's part of the terror. They learned to sate it by giving it the milk of nine kai, or nine cows. So they'd bring it into the courtyard

and a massive horse trough would be filled with the milk of nine cows every day. What? And it would come in there and it would drink the milk and then it would go back.

And now it was so big that instead of calling itself around the rock, it would call itself around either Wormhill, which is in Washington and it's still called Wormhill around either worm hill which is in washington and it's still called worm hill to this day which is a very mysterious hill there's um there's a website uh dedicated to a weird geography and it's a very flat area and then there's just a hill in

the middle of nowhere so nobody knows what it is um and it was either that or it was pensher hill which is the which is what most people now believe and And Pensher Hill is an absolutely massive, massive hill that you can see from most of Durham. So it probably wasn't that hill, otherwise it would be enormous. But these days we say that he coiled himself nine times around Pensher Hill or seven times, the numbers change. So apparently if anyone took the tiniest amount of milk, like if one of the farmhands took a little bit of milk out of the worm's pail,

he would get so angry that he would thrash his tail and tear up trees with his tail and smash them down. So, naturally, many knights' errands came and tried to kill the worm. And what the worm would do is they would wrap and coil themselves around the man and crush them to death. We're in a pickle. Mmm! Fortunately for the people

of the North East, the lantern worm is so famous that word of it reaches young Lamampton in Palestine and he realizes he has to go home to put right what he did wrong by Hoyin Dun-Nuel. So he comes straight back from Palestine, which I assume takes ages in those days. And he's so sorry and he apologizes to his father. He says, I've got to be the one to kill the worm. First, though, he consults a local witch and I'm going to read,

because I really like the language of it, I'm going to read the 8088 version of it. Now there dwelt in a lonely hut an aged wife wrinkled in yellow with matted locks and piercing eyes and rugged screaming voice. Her commune was with the dead and the lost and the outer darkness

whence come pestilence, devilry, despair, and death to the children of men. To her the troubled chieftain went, that he might know the dreadful truth of all mischief, and perhaps how this ill should be undone. The witch was crooning over her smouldering fire of stolen wood, humming the, not legally acquired wood, but stolen wood, humming the mystic chants of her darksome craft

as she dozed above the dying embers. She was crooning over the fire. Yeah, the Bing Crosby maybe. But she's got a screech. What was her voice? A screaming voice. A screaming voice. Which comes every time she speaks later on, she's... I'm dreaming of my Christmas!

That's more naughty Holder though, I suppose. Yeah. So this is the scene when young Lambton arrives, and she says, here's what you do. You go to the armourer, and you get a suit of armour made with spearheads embedded in the whole of the surface so you're all spiky. Clever. And then you go and fight the worm on the rock

in the middle of the River Weir, the rock from earlier, the one it used to coil around. Right. Oh, there's an important detail, which is that middle of the river weir, the rock from earlier, the one it used to coil around. Right. Oh, there's an important detail, which is that one of the other reasons that the other knights couldn't kill him is that it had the power of, quote, self-union, meaning you hack the tail off, it goes back together.

Oh. And so it cannot be killed. So she gives him that advice, but it comes at a price. And that is when he's killed it, he has to kill the first living thing he sees on his way home. Oh. So he says, all right. And he makes an arrangement with his father, Lord Lambton,

that he's going to blow his bugle horn three times when he's killed the worm. And then the father will send out his favourite dog, it says. Oh. Not his least favourite dog. He's going to send him his favourite dog and he'll kill that dog. We can all assume that's going to work out perfectly. Oh. Not his least favourite dog. He's going to send him his favourite dog, and he'll kill that dog. We can all assume that's going to work out perfectly. Yeah. He goes out on the River Weir,

banging his shield, saying, come at me. And the worm attacks, and there is the fight of a lifetime. Just imagine if it was animated by a Japanese animator, how impressive this would look. Oh, yeah.

The worm tries to coil around him, but of course the spikes dig into the worm's flesh, so every time he coils, he gets weeper. And he hacks off its tail, and then he realises the wisdom of the witch, because it just washes away down the weir. Oh, that's what you do. That's why he's doing it in the middle.

So he's hacking and hacking, and all the parts wash away, and eventually he kills the worm. And I can't help but worry that just further down the river weir, it reforms, terrorising someone in Denmark, when it washes out to sea. But anyway, as far as we know, it's completely dead. He blows on his bugle horn and his dad is so pleased

that he forgets about the dog plan and runs out to meet his son and he sees his own father first. But he's not prepared to kill him, so he says, just get the dog and we'll kill the dog and we'll hope that works. They kill the dog, it doesn't work. Still the favourite dog. They kill get the dog and we'll kill the dog and we'll hope that works they kill the dog it doesn't work still the favourite dog the favourite dog

they kill the favourite dog and it doesn't work and so the witch screeches the witch rips at this point to scream something about that's it

the Lamptons will be cursed for nine generations and none of them will die in their beds which Lampton doesn't think is that bad because they are all knights so it is quite normal

for them and a few people have tried to top this up or work out from this when it happened, but we know at least that the ninth generation Lampton died while crossing a bridge in this area. And at least two or three of the other Lamptons didn't die in their beds. So the curse seems to have carried on for many hundreds of years after this. So that is the story of the Lambton Worm. And now, in last-ditch attempts to gain extra points,

I want to add that it has a celebrity endorsement. Ooh. You didn't believe that the story of the Lambton Worm has spread far and wide, but I have a celebrity endorsement for you, which you're not going to be able to guess it, but when you hear it, you're going to think, of course, the celebrity endorsement for the Lambton Worm is Roxy Music's Brian Ferry. Of course.

Of course. Roxy Music's Brian Ferry has recorded a version of The Lampton Worm song that I butchered for you earlier on. Oh. And it is dreadful. I don't use the word god-awful that often. But how, you ask, how did such a not-that-famous story reach the ears of Roxy Music's Brian Ferry? He's from Washington, the area exactly where the story happens. Right.

That's the reason he's heard it. But while looking around on YouTube, I also found that this is not an endorsement, but it's definitely something that I will put a link to Brian Ferry's version in the show notes on the website, and I advise you to not listen to it because it's worse than mine. But there is a really nice animation. Someone called Cary Nutman, when he was 12 years old in the 1960s, started animating a version of it, and it took him about 10 years to finish it. And he's put it online with him singing it.

And so it's a wonderful 8mm animation recorded in sort of shake. And basically, it's the wonderful 8mm animation recorded in sort of shake and basically it's the creepiest thing in the world a child's animation of a story of a horrible monster but it's absolutely

wonderful Kerry Nutman's version of it I'll put a link to that and I strongly recommend you have a look at that I blooming will

I have to say one of the things that I enjoy in a weird way about it is that the the reed ugly worm that he catches looks very much like

a hole. It's been drawn by a 12 year old. But they're the people that draw them the most. A 12 year old boy has drawn a hole. I'm sure he was unaware of what he was drawing. I do. It's a wriggling on the end of a hook.

As you would, Hoyt doing a well. Right, yeah, I'll go and have a lookiggling on the end of a hook until he as you would Hoyet doing well right yeah I'll go and have a look at this 12 year old's drawing of a please do please do

if the internet were invented for anything let's maybe cut some of that yeah let's trim that down a little to the scores

category the first naming ooh what do you mean the lumped and warm it's a worm so there's a big yeah it's not like so it's Scores. Category the first. Naming. Oh. What do you mean? The Lampton Worm? It's a worm, so there's a big... Yeah, but it's not like... So I assume it is spelled W-R-M,

but I assume it's worm in the sense of W-Y-R-M, which is the old word for, like, dragon. So it's not like a wiggly, wiggly little worm. No, it's a big worm. Worm. Worm. It's a worm. Worm. Say it with a bit of showmanship. It's a worm with big worm. Worm. Worm. It's a worm. Worm. Say it with a

bit of showmanship. It's a worm with nine holes. Worm. Worm. Worm. Is it sounding any better? You little worm. Yeah, but imagine a big worm. That's essentially the pitch. Yeah, a

sticky together big worm. You know you don't like worms, yeah? What if one was big? What if one was really big? How big? Big enough to go around a hill? Okay, yep. Like seven times. Is it a big hill? It's a big hill. Yes. And it's a...

As I already said with the Lampton, that sounds like a nice little treat, a Lampton. And then a worm. It's... And then what's the guy? And he's just called... treat, a Lampton. And then a worm. It's... And then what's the guy? And he's just called... He's John, John Lampton. John.

Or I think Janus, one of the old versions, middle-aged versions of it. Come on. Middle-aged. Scrambling around. From the olden days. Scrambling around there. There's a carving on Lampton property, although it was in the 19th century, of Lamton there

with his spiked armour and a sword and a woman with bare breasts and wounds. No, it's just a bit of colour. Wounds?

Yeah, as if she's been attacked by the worm and then the worm's there and he's stabbing it. Oh, okay. But like Hollywood, they've thrown in

a sexy lady character who isn't in the story just because, you know, it's a sculpture. I thought she had because he'd forgotten and she'd given him a hug oh

oh no that would be awful because it seems his forgetfulness runs in his family right forgetfulness about very pivotal things

so you've got John you've got an inaccurately named worm I'm still just imagining a big flesh colour.

It's going to be white as well because it's just drinking the milky treasure. It's definitely green from all of the pantomime and drawing versions I've seen of it. But let me give you some of the sweet, sweet dialects from the song again. Don't sing again. I'm not going to sing. All right. Hook. H-E Don't sing again. I'm not going to sing. All right. Hook. H-E-U-K.

That means hook. If your category was... Chem instead of home. Dyslexia. You'd be doing really well. You would squally little burns alive. That's quite nice. You would squally swallow little burns alive, yeah.

We've got the word kai for cow. These are just words. They're not names. Damn. John. Damn your knowledge of grammar. John, Lampton, Lampton Worm. That's only three different words.

One of them is spelt wrong. I forgot to tell you there's also a well. That's only one more word, and it's hill. And there's a well, Wormwell. Wormwell. Is it? Right. Not anymore, it's gone. There was a Wormwell. What's the stone? there's a well worm well is it right not anymore it's gone but there was a worm well what's the stone stone have a name which the stone in the river or the river was called weird that was funny i enjoyed that yeah the stone doesn't have a name right i think the

stone may have been lost no no carrie nutman he did the animation for... That's a nice name. That's a lovely name. Kerry Nutman is a lovely name. Shout out to Kerry Nutman. No. I think this is a two. Because you... And it's not... No. Yeah, it's a two.

And that is being very generous. Because the worm, it's not even spelt with a Y. So it would look interesting written down. You just... Imagine that... What the episode is going to be called? Lambton Worm. I was going to bring him in.

Is it? Yeah, people are going to read that and go, ooh. Ooh. I wonder how big it is. Ooh, a worm. Great. All right, two. It's got nine holes.

How does that work? Is one of the holes the mouth and then it's got four down the side? I think it's running the other side down its nose. Don't know. Is it nine on each side? I think it's running the other side down its nose. Don't know. Is it nine on each side? I think it's nine on each side, because otherwise it'd be asymmetrical. But then, well, that would make it a bit like, it's weird. Is it going to get me any more points for naming?

No. Numbering. Two out of five. There's loads of numbers. Yeah, there's a lot. Should have got a number. Maybe you've got a number in the category. I haven't got that in my list of categories, numbering.

I don't think it does. Nine kaiais he wrapped himself seven times around the hill yeah or nine in some reports I mean this is really scoring

really alright the next category I've got to scrape back supernatural classic traditional category supernatural

do you mean mmm are you aware to what an enormous size he growled things can be big worms nine times around a hill big worms can be big Do you mean, are you aware to what an enormous size he growed? Things can be big. Nine times round a hill big.

Worms can be big. People thought that worms, if you cut them in half, were two worms until about five years ago. I think I found out about that last year. Yeah, if there wasn't QI, people would still think that if you cut a worm in half, it becomes two worms. I'm talking about real worms now. You're very lucky that this worm didn't produce two worms when you cut it up. Otherwise, we'd have a variety. A load of Lampton worms. I'd be scoring even higher for numbering than this.

And then it definitely wouldn't be a dragon. It would just be a worm. Just a big worm. All right, well, since this doesn't happen, it proves it's a dragon. So what could be more supernatural? We've got that. We've got a witch. She's basically, all we know about this witch is she's not very good at singing.

We've got a prophecy. I mean, a curse. I forgot. I forgot what it was. It's a curse. You've got a curse. People can say a lot of stuff, though, can't they? But also, he brings the whole thing on himself by being such a bad lad.

Swearing at him. By swearing at the river. On a Sunday. On a Sunday. On a Sunday. In one of the accounts I've been reading, it's introduced as the sin. It's all a moral story

teaching him a lesson through supernatural occurrences. It's only a three though, really, isn't it? I'm flipping head. Because it's kind of, it's getting into that cryptozoology stuff,

which doesn't come across as that supernatural. They're not really... No one does any magic. A curse? Are you marking me down because you think it might be true? And there could be a giant worm? It could be.

I'm not saying I think it's true. I'm just saying a giant worm... That drank the milk of nine cows every day and ripped up trees with its tail. That loved dairy goodness. What was it? Milky treasure. I'll get a three out of five.

Fine. That brings me on to my next category. Milk. I've written that with an exclamation mark. You're quite right. Milk. It was a fairly milk-obsessed creature. Yeah.

Occasionally ate bairns when they were sleeping. Yeah, because probably they smell of milk. Yeah, this... Occasionally it burns when they were sleeping. Yeah, because probably they smell of milk. Yeah, you see, right? It was probably the scent of mother's milk that attracted them. Same reason cats steal children's souls or whatever it is they're supposed to do. Yeah, same reason cats steal children's souls.

Yeah, because of their milk. That's probably the bare breasts of the lady that you mentioned. It was just going after her milk. Milky treasure. Her mammary glands. Her mammary delights or whatever. That is the name of my student band.

We didn't do well. Back to milky delights. Back to category. The category milk. Milk. Yeah, five. I'm going to give you five. I can't imagine there being more milk in this story.

Like, this story is so obsessed with milk that the characters in this story drink milk even though they know that it's going to anger a giant, albeit worm, but a giant angry worm. Someone definitely, at least once, I'll have a little bit of that milk. And they're saving children's lives and stuff by doing it. It's like, well, I do quite like milk. Like, yeah, you're getting five out of five for milk, definitely. Five out of five. And finally, you've been fairly harsh with me.

I think you're going to have to score me, Eileen, in the category of unarguable famousness. I think you'll agree it's an extremely famous story. Just ask your friend and mine, Brian Ferry. Yeah. I don't know, because he might... Would he reply in song or would he go, yeah, I've heard of it? Let's not ask Brian Ferry. Yeah.

Let's just assume that he's strongly endorsing it. Well, yeah, definitely. He wanted to bring it to the world and it's not done well. Word of it reached as far as Palestine during the Crusades. Otherwise, Lambton wouldn't have heard about it. Yeah, that was a direct message. That doesn't count. No, he just heard rumours.

No, I'm sure someone told him. It would be in Palestine, and one Palestinian would say to another, have you heard about that? Because we haven't got any problems here. Have you heard about that giant worm they've got in Washington? And they say, D.C. And if by that you mean County Durham, yes.

Yeah, ooh. And Lambton DC, if by that you mean County Durham, yes. Yeah, ooh. And Lambton said, what's that you say? Sorry, lads. I happen to be from Washington. Shut up, shut up, shut up. Tell me about the worm. No.

It is arguably not from us. You've drawn me to your bosom only for me to find you wearing a suit of spiked spearheads. Yes. Yeah. The Lampton Worm is not that famous. I'm sorry, the North East. What about the panto?

Yeah, what about the panto? That's not the subject of a pantomime. It's very popular with the kids. Jack and the Beanstalk. I mean, how many pantos have an opening song which mentions children being eaten alive? Yeah! Shut up, shut up! I'm going to do my panto.

No, like... Even the budget. Why have you made the main antagonist of this pantomime a worm? In a lot of the pictures it has four legs

so I assume it was like a pantomime horse but like the bad guy. That sounds terrifying. And inaccurate. So what, Ross Kemp is the Lampton worm. No, I would put him as like Lord Lampton, the guy who at the end. Okay, so he's old Lord Lampton.

He's knocking on a bit now, Ross Kemp. He's not going to play young Lampton. No, well, no, he wouldn't because it's Panto. It'd have to be a girl, wouldn't it? That's the other thing about Pantos, if you don't know Pantos. That's why I mentioned Cabaret because it's sort of cross-dressing slightly sexy but it is children's entertainment

kind of a way. And then you've got the actor that played Harold Bishop in Neighbours as the Lampton worm. Kind of a Jabba the Hutt figure. I'm warming to this. Is this out of copyright?

Could we stage a production? Yeah, we could stage a production of it. I don't think we can put Jabba the Hutt in it.

A Hutt-esque sort of thing. And then you've got the lady with the wounds as the Princess Leia role in the Golden Bikini.

It's not even a non-speaking role. She doesn't even feature in the story. She's just there and topless. I'm not endorsing that. Yeah, I think we could do this. So really, the fame we're measuring is not just the fame of the story to date. It's the fame of our high-budget Hollywood...

Pantomime. Pantomime remake. Yes. That will inevitably take the world by storm. And if we get Ross Kemp on board, Google him, then that will inevitably take the world by storm and if we get Ross Kemp on board google him then that will make it I think

yeah I'd give it a four out of five four out of five so after you said that your face said and that's what you're getting four out of five and we'll put it on next year

and then it will be unarguably famous yes this is Edinburgh yeah lantern lantern no just worm and then it will be unarguably famous. Yes. This is Edinburgh. Yeah. Lantern. Lantern. No.

Just worm. Exclamation mark. With a Y. Oh, yeah, yeah. But instead of selling ice cream at the interval on the trays, it's just milk. Yeah, it's just... Just gallons of milk.

Nine cows worth of milk. And help yourself, lads. Dig in is a straw this tale is for anyone who's ever wondered what goes on inside a boy king's head it's not what you expect it's not what you expect prepare yourself Alistair this is a high octane thrill ride of a story this has got everything you could want

from I'm just going to tell the story actually because you've oversold it at this point I think so I am prepared for something really intense. You're on

everything. This, well, okay, it begins, we open in Winchcombe. Oh, you've lost me. I'm walking out

of the theatre, I've left. I'm in a cab. It's Saxon times? And Winchcombe is the capital of Winchcombshire. Yeah.

Now he's coming back. I'm back in. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Stop the taxi. I can still hear the unexpected twist. And this is in the kingdom of Mercia. I know, I like that. Yeah.

And we're in AD 788. All right. King Kenulf, yeah, the king of Mercia, founded an abbey. And then a few years later, he died. And he was succeeded by his seven-year-old son, Kenelm. He also had two older daughters, Kenulf. We only know the name of the oldest one, Quendreda, which is a great name. That is quite an evil name.

But we don't know whether, what the middle daughter's name was. We don't know if it was a Ken prefix or just, yeah, a made-up series of sounds. Is Quen the feminine version of Ken? Oh, maybe. That's a good point. I was trying to think of were there any female names that began with Ken. Yeah, speculative research. Some great research I've not done.

So Quen Dredda, the older sister, she wanted the throne, obviously. She's getting passed over for her seven-year-old brother. I don't know how many siblings myself, but I imagine that's quite annoying. Well, my sister is two years younger than me, and when we were children could run faster than me and beat me at all video games. Including one I made. I invented a video game, and then we we played it and she beat me at it. I know how Ken Alm feels.

Quendredda? No, yeah, sorry. I know how Quend... I've forgotten. In this scenario you're Quendredda. I know how Quendredda feels. But she didn't try an exact revenge by creating a video game. She

persuaded Ascobert which is a person's name not a computer game from the 80s. It does sound like it would be. Yeah, the 8th century version of Ask Jeeves. Yes. Now Ascobert was Ken Elm's tutor. Quendreda

persuaded Ascobert to murder Ken Elm. Ascobert took Ken Elm hunting in the Clent Hills. Let me say that again. The Clent Hills. And so they went on this little hunting trip, Ascobert and Ken Elm. And Ken Elm had a little nap. Come on, he's seven.

Probably just had an 8th century version of Ribena and a little lie down. And while he was having his sleep, Asko Burt dug the grave for Ken Elm. He's getting ahead of himself there, a little bit. It's hubristic at the very least. Yeah, I my point of view is if you're

if you have been tasked with killing a 7 year old, what you should do when that 7 year old is asleep is kill that 7 yearyear-old. I've always said that. You don't need the prep. So during this heuristic grave digging Ken Elm awoke and said

this is not the place ordained for you to kill me and he stuck his staff into the ground and black flowers bloomed from it and this was meant to be proof. I know Ken Helms, your protagonist, but this is a creepy kid. It's a bit weird, isn't it? That is a creepy... It's like, have you seen Babadook?

Yes. Like, the way... The best thing about that is, you wouldn't mind if that kid got killed. Because he's awful. Yeah, a bit annoying. Ken Helms is a bit of a Babadook kid. This... Yeah, he's saying... Black flowers bloom.

This is not the place to attain... Creepy. Kill that kid. In one version of the story, it praises him for saying that he was singing a song or something, taking his death in good spirits. Spoiler alert.

Asko Burr heeded the words that this was not the place ordained to kill him just took him down the road and killed him down there. Oh right. Yeah. So that sort of backfired on Colonel. I was just growing attached to the creepy little child. So Asgore Burr decapitates him and buries

the head and the body under a bush. I guess it's a different guy. So even that digging of the grave was a waste of time. He dug a second grave. I would have at least taken them back to the first. Oh, and also, while he was doing all this, a dove flew out of the base of Ken Elm's skull. That sentence ends in a place it doesn't begin.

Yeah. Say that again. So Ascobert has decapitated a seven year old and he's put him in a grave and he's filling that grave in

and while he's doing that a dove flies out of the little boy's head and the dove flies to Rome to see the I'll allow me to finish the dove

flies to Rome to see the Pope and he drops a scroll at the Pope and he drops a scroll at the Pope's feet which the Pope can't read because the Pope can't read English. Fortunately there's an Englishman there. He translates the note

for the Pope. The note says In clent cow pasture under a thorn of head bereft lies Kenelm Kingborn. So the dove is grassed up Arscobert. With the appropriate authority, a.k.a. the Pope. The Pope, yeah.

The classic crime-solving Pope. I mean, it really takes a swerve from the moment of the beheading onwards, that story. It goes from quite realistic sort of family tragedy to, eh, crazy. Can I check are you improvising the bit where someone

translates it no that's part of the story that's part of the story part of the story why would the dove not just have written it in Latin

how could the magic dove yeah that's like the world that's what everyone that's like the Esperanto of the day Latin like everyone

could have known Latin like kings and that sort of people they probably knew Latin that's what the Pope deals in why would the if you can

if you could write a magic scroll and you're a dove write it that is ridiculous that is a ridiculous that is I'm outraged

because I was thinking about this I was thinking like oh that's quite clever of the dove to write of head bereft as like a clue

in there but then I realised, oh no, the dove would have written that down anyway because he's not getting out unless the kennel's had his head cut off.

Both of us have assumed that the dove wrote it. Is there a little mouse inside with a quill also in the guy's skull? The seven-year-old's skull. Because a seven-year-old's head's not much bigger

than a dove. But I guess it's only just occurred to me at this point that the dove is probably representative of his soul. Oh. Sorry, the look of sadness. Is that the end of the story? I don't know. Of course not. So what does the Pope do?

So the Pope sends orders to Wilfred, the Archbishop of Canterbury. And Wilfred gets on the 8th century version of the blower, telephone. Not a telephone. Whatever. Probably, you'd think, carrier pigeon. But now it sounds like he'd have to decaminate someone in order to send one of send one of them anyway however he does it he gets word to the monks of winch can abbey and they start looking for the body of ken elm they managed to find the body of ken elm with the assistance of white cow as a like a sidekick yeah he's basically he the cow

apparently started mooing at a bush and and that's out of character for a cow that no wonder that caught their attention and they were like what's that cow playing at let's have a dig under here and they dig up the the head the body and the knife the pope thanks to the classic chain of investigation chain of hope next down Archbishop Cansary next down monks next down white cow I mean the

white cow's the hero in this tale he's doing the real groundwork yeah he's the one on the beat who knows the people involved he can

talk their language or he can moo at appropriate bushes so well I guess they thought cow pasture who knows cow

pasture better than cows oh it hasn't finished what yeah so they take oh there was who knows cow pasture better than cows oh it hasn't finished what yeah so they take oh there was something

about a spring as well a magic spring comes out when they find the body either where they found the body a spring comes from or

when the monks had a rest taking the body back to Winchkin Abbey and where they had a rest a spring came from and it's there's a little

building there now apparently still You seem really unimpressed with that part of the story Well yeah because it doesn't involve birds flying out of people's heads translations which I love and or detective cows DSI Moo Man

I as the cigar chomping studio exec from the start of this story i'm well up for the detective cow the rest of it i can take on it frankly but detective cow yes not even take my money you don't want a dove that can write a memo that's his secretary yeah that's true and they've gone on again, off again, will they, won't they relationship. Who's bad cop, good cop? Bad dove, good cow. That's your name. Anyway.

So the monks transport Kenelm's body back to the abbey. And on the way, evil Quendreda, she's still angry that this has all gone on. Although she seems to kind of be getting away with the thing. But anyway, her just desserts happen because she tries to curse the funeral procession by reading Psalm 108 backwards. Now, Psalm 108 is known as the cursing psalm. In some reports, reports, in some versions of this story. Let's be careful about the words we use.

In some versions of the story, it's Psalm 53, which is the atheist psalm. I do wonder why these psalms made it to the final part of the Bible. The cursing psalm and the atheist psalm, they don't seem on brand. The atheist psalm? Yeah, because I think it starts with, like, he who believed

in God is a fool because there is no God. Or something like that. That's really off-message. So she tries to read that backwards in order to curse the funeral possession but her eyes burst and cover the page with blood and she dies in agony and she's unable to read anymore because not only has she no eyes the piece of paper that's written on is covered in the blood from her no eyes though that is i really like the attention to making sure she couldn't read it.

That reminds me of... You know, I'm a big fan of... How can that remind you of something? That reminds me of another eye-exploding story. Sorry, your cat is sniffing at my teacup. I realise I really need to finish that sentence. The story that reminds me of is,

I'm a big fan of the history of European fairy tales. And I think it's 17th and maybe 18th century. In the Charles Perrault version of Cinderella, at the end of the story, the ugly sisters, the famous ugly sisters, apologise and they're forgiven by Cinderella. And she gives them each a salon in Prince Charming's castle, which is a really nice ending.

Tanning. No. Well, no, at this time, these were salon stories. So fancy women would hang out together in their salon, and they would tell one another fairy tales, and Perrault started writing them down, or perhaps he kicked off the telling of them by writing them down. Right.

A hundred years later, the Brothers Grimm, who were German, not French, wrote their version of that story. And in their version, at the wedding, the ugly sisters are there

and they're throwing rice and then doves come and peck out their eyes. Ooh. Which gives you, I think, a sense of the different attitudes to justice

that the German and French peoples have. Yeah. A nice little salon. Yeah. A nice little salon. Yeah. And also a business. Your own salon. Your own small business. Or an eye pecking at you.

Or no eyes at all. So, Kenelm was interred at the abbey, and there was a shrine there, which was visited many times throughout the years, and there's like you know miracles and all that sort of stuff just listed as some miracles like that's that we're not going to go into detail about them you've had enough from this story excitement in 1815 the abbey was

excavated and they found a coffin with a skeleton of a boy with a long knife beside it um unfortunately the bones and the knife turned to dust in contact with the air. How many... I don't know how many stories we've recorded at this point, but I've heard the phrase, all turned to dust so many times. It's a good way of not having to prove your story.

It is, isn't it? I saw it. Oh, have you got evidence? It turned to dust. Why? Contact with air. It's very much the folklorist's dog ate my homework. And so to the scores. Okay. What are your categories? Oh, they are Legion.

They're called Legion for they are many. What's the first category then? First category, I'm going to go with Supernatural you're opening with Supernatural okay I think so yeah it's not normal to have a dove in your head

no I'm not saying that as far as we know because any one of us could have a dove in our heads yes most people aren't beheaded so

many people's doves just stay in when they die. And die when they die. No one thinks to look. Should we have a look inside that skull, see if there's any little bird bones? I think, yeah, a dove that goes to the Pope. A dove that goes to the post office. That would be impressive. Yeah.

That's supernatural, definitely. Yeah. Head doves. The staff with the flowering staff yeah the creepy creepy child

annoying children unfortunately they're very real yeah but there's a certain type of annoying child that belongs to

the spooky literature ones that can say the word ordained yeah he's creepy creepily spooky and I'm glad he was murdered he was a king though

so are you saying his his gift for language probably wasn't supernatural no he probably had lessons right well that'll

knock some points off for that damn it yeah I let you walk into that you just really I could feel that I was being led down

it was like I was being taken hunting in Clint Hills before being decapitated. So we've got the eyes bursting. Classic eye burst. From the face. Yep. Any other supernatural occurrences in the story? Detective Cow.

And Detective Cow. I think that's a four out of five. I'm knocking one point off because the child may simply have been insufferably pretentious. Yeah. But yeah, four out of five. Okay. Gore. Gore.

Gore. Occasional visiting category. Gore. Gore. Well, again, eyes bursting. Gore. Yeah. Decapitation.

There's a lot of blood there. And the murder of your little brother. Yeah. That's not. I mean, we're talking about it as if it's fun to murder children. But in reality, that would be horrible. Getting the teacher as well, the trusted figure. Is that who Askobert was his teacher?

Yeah, he asks Askobert. Oh, I didn't realise. So maybe he's the guy that's responsible for that annoying, this is not the place ordained for you to kill me. I'm surprised he didn't actually just kill him. Yeah, exactly. But he saw a stick flower black flowers. Well, I think it's only a three out of five for gore.

For gore? Yeah, one beheaded child and two popped eyes. It's not that much. What? I want to be clear on when i guess the thing is this it's because i'm visualizing when the

dove comes out i'm visualizing it as pure white rather than sodden and yeah and like the blood of a child's head sort of flicking bits of brains off its wings before it flies off if

that and just hastily scribbling a note probably in blood well if that were the case it's a four but i don't think you have any evidence that that that the case, it's a four. But I don't think you have any evidence that the dove

didn't come out pure, gleaming white. Because I don't think it would have been let in to see the Pope. A bloody dove. People would say, go away and clean yourself up.

Clean yourself up. Before you get an audience with its Popeness. Must have been less gory, so it's a three. That's a shame. Okay. Oh, this is perhaps

related to Supernatural. Magic animals. Magic animals. What have perhaps related to Supernatural. Magic animals. Magic animals. What have you got? A dove. A dove. A dove that can command. You're leaning heavily

on this dove. But okay. The head dove. And Detective Cow. Now was the cow magic or was it just damn good at his job? That's the question

I have for you. I suppose that's the thing with detective work. It's like you can you make it look like it's magic but it's actually he probably done a lot of you know going around having a chat with the squirrels uh because isn't it someone that said any detective work sufficiently advanced should be indistinguishable from magic especially if it's done by a cow yeah I think I think

someone just now it's been said at least once I'd wager I think this brilliantly Disney fies the whole story how dare you bring Walt Disney into a

story involving a child's bedding but I think I think it gives it a little sort of, ooh, a Cinderella sort of aspect of like, oh, there's a little dove flying out of the kid's head. But again,

imagine you're pitching this to Walt Disney is now the cigar chomping executive. You get to the bit and then the child is beheaded. He's going to raise an eyebrow there. No, no amount of doves. And buried in a shallow grave. Well, we can show that off camera. No, that needs to be on camera because...

Well, I think you have one magical animal. And one animal who is damn good at his job. So I'm giving you one out of five. One animal. Because you could obviously have had five magical animals in this story. That cow was one day away from retirement.

Okay, this has to work. The category of naming. Well. Come on. I can't help but notice, and I don't think I didn't notice this while you were telling the story, you can't just keep saying Clent with a strong T

and hope you're going to convince me that it's... That's a great name. It's a good name. Okay, so you've got Clent. Clent Hills. Ken Ulf. Quen Dredda. Asgub. It's five out of five. Yes. It's a good name. Okay, so you've got Clint. Clint Hills. Ken Ulf. Quinn Dredda. Asghar.

It's five out of five. Yes. I thought it wasn't that good but as I went through the... Mystery Sister. We can only assume that that's a brilliant name. I think the Mystery Sister

sounds like a decent student band. Why am I giving these names away? So, any other good names? I've already scored it but...

Yes. Wilfred, the Archbishop of Canterbury. All right, Wilf. All right, Wilf. It's not that good. I would love to take it down to four, but I can't because... Okay, I'm going to get it back up because in some version of the story, Askobert is called Askbert.

It's as simple as that. The Columbo Factor. One last thing, Alistair. Sorry. All right. Yes? The Columbo factor. Yeah, because we know who did it,

and then the story is just watching that person get caught. Yes. Like in Columbo. Yes. You've made your case. Are there any Columbos that don't finish with the criminal's eyes bursting? I think every single one. You've made your case. Are there any Columbos that don't finish with the criminal's eyes bursting?

I think every single one. Over a hymn book. Yeah. Most of them. Most of them do. I guess that's why he wore that waterproof coat.

Because of constant eye juice. He had a bad eye. We don't know if it burst. Probably not. We don't know the background of that.

Presumably someone was reading the atheist's psalm. Yeah. But he was standing at an angle. It's really unfair for us to bring Peter Falk's missing eye into... A story with exploding eyes. I'm trying to get points. The Columbo factor. All right, no, you're right.

Yeah, yeah. Poorly eyes. It may be inconsiderate of you, but it's worth an extra point. You'd think it would get half a point. We don't do half points. No, I know. To remember, we've got the Pope. Oh, yeah, the Pope.

DSI Pope. Yeah. The cigar-chomping Pope shouting out, Oh, Wilfred, get in here. I'm going to take your minor... your silly hats on the line. Find out where Kenelm is. Find out which cow field in Clint Hills

this beheaded seven-year-old is. And then he's like, the pub's busting my... Monks, you gotta help me out. And then the monks go out. I'm imagining Keystone Cop style. And then... Blowing a whistle,

waving their monkey staff. Trying to get into a car and falling out of that car and all sorts of stuff. And then... Blowing a whistle, waving their monkey staff. Trying to get into a car and falling out of that car and all sorts of stuff. And then, again, one day away from retirement, Detective Cal. They think,

ah, this guy's put out your pasture. Actually, that's quite an insult to cows, isn't it? That's their day-to-day. They must be like, well, have a little bit more thought when you use these phrases

it's five out of five for the Colimbo factor yes your short parody of all detective drama

has convinced me you have been listening to Lawmen. The Lawmen are Alastair Beckett-King and James Shakespeare. The Lawmen will return later this year with Series 2, telling tales of folklore from the British Isles and beyond. If you have a local legend you'd like us to investigate, tweet us at lawmenpod

or email contact at lawmenpodcast.com. Lawmen is spelled L-O-R-E, men. It's wordplay. If you enjoyed Series 1 of Lawmen, please do rate and subscribe. Maybe write us a review. And if you didn't enjoy Lawmen Series 1, shut up, shut up, shut up. truck. Are we recording? We're recording. Still rolling. Good. And I'm Alistair's Batman and Robin, James Shakeshaft.

And I'm Alistair's Man Friday and Girl Tuesdays James Shakeshaft and I'm Alistair's Mars Bar and Milkshake James Shakeshaft these are sounding more sexual than I'd intended