Loremen Podcast - S2 Ep3: Loremen S2 Ep3 - Jon Long - The Lincoln Imp and The Red Book of Appin

Episode Date: January 3, 2019

The Loremen discover that Lincoln Green is people, and ride to windswept Argyll on an "entire" horse. In Episode 3, James and Alasdair are joined by another Deputy Loreman: award-having comedian and troubadour Jon Long. Find the show notes here: www.loremenpodcast.com/episode-3-s2 @loremenpod www.instagram.com/loremenpod www.loremenpodcast.com/about www.facebook.com/LoremenPod @JamesShakeshaft | @MisterABK | @jonlongstandup Here’s the Lincoln Echo video Jon tells us about. (We were clearly joking about this guy. Do not sue us, please.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12AEvoeNaJ0 A quick correction: It turns out St Mary’s unique porch in Chipping Norton is HEXagonal, not octagonal. And there are two other like it. Also, the Princess Di visit is not corroborated: https://www.britainexpress.com/attractions.htm?attraction=5086 Finally, never let it be said that the Lincoln Echo can’t do clickbait titles: Do You Like Lincoln’s Big Metal Face? (Lincoln Echo)  

Welcome to Lawmen, a podcast about local legends and obscure curiosities from days of yore. I'm Alistair Beckett-King, connoisseur of blasphemous and exquisite pleasures that mortal man was not meant to know. And I'm James Shakeshaft, also an Amazon Prime customer. This tale features a deputy law person telling a tale from Lincolnshire about Lincoln Cathedral in Lincoln. Welcome another deputy lawman. Shall we go? I think it's time to introduce... I mean, this has been one of the best intros we've done so far. It's been the longest intro and you've really been winging it.

I think it's time to introduce a deputy lawman, John Long. Thank you very much for having me. I didn't realise I was getting deputised as part of this. Yes, it's a limited deputisation. Oh, just for the duration, but you get to wear a starshape badge that says Deputy Lawman. My jurisdiction is this podcast studio.

This small, tiny sound recording booth. Red curtain lined. But also, an American pointed out who was listening to the podcast, the hilarious lawman pun doesn't work in an American accent because it doesn't work with a rhotic accent because they say lawman and loreman. Loreman.

So it doesn't work. Okay. It's a bit too late now. Sorry, America. I think they accept that. Do they accept that? I'm not sorry. They accepted it, but I see from the world.

It also doesn't work in Irelandireland scotland or the west country so really it's not a it's not a strong international pun okay well it works for me and my accent so for the duration of this it works in and you are from i'm from lincolnshire lincolnshire yeah i don't really have a lincolnshire accent because it doesn't really well it's not got a very good accent what is because when i i was trying to think about what I know about Lincolnshire, and I think, I think of farming, but I also visualise, you know, the start of Sim City before you've done anything. That's very much what I imagine.

Yes, because Sim City is most ever good at contours or hills or valleys. I always used to flatten mine out. Yeah. So that's probably why I just, a colourless isometric square is what I'm, is that what it's like? It is, yeah, basically. Well, the part I'm from is anyway, the Fens. That's just, it's flat.

It's irrigated. So it's like, they call it South Holland because it's just like, yeah, in the Netherlands. It's completely flat. They have all these, what they call dikes. Now, they don't have this around the country. It's basically a ditch at the side of the road. And we have that everywhere.

So the point where we moved to London, I assumed everyone had heard that and that's what that word meant. I know two things about Lincoln. Green, sausage. Lincoln Green. Lincoln Green

and Lincolnshire sausage. What do you know about Lincoln Green? What do you know about it? Who's been talking to you much? Is that not allowed to leave the county?

I think we just mentioned if you want anything, cut it. I think for your own safety, mate, you need to cut. Having any knowledge about Lincoln Green.

Is that like the Dykes thing? It has a different, it's sort of a reverse. Totally different meaning. It's really, no, no. Lincoln Green is people. Is that the situation?

Is that what you guys are hiding? Lincoln people are actually made from reconstituted people. And that's hence the sausage. Yeah. Sausages, yeah. They've got herby kind of sausages.

They make sausages. And yeah, that's what you really need to know is lincoln green a thing or have i made i've never heard of lincoln green have you even heard of lincoln green lincoln green is not something that anyone really takes away from lincoln and it's not something that's widespreadly known or anything you know but it is a real thing well you're looking at me like i have actually blown something wide open tell me what you know about it. I have heard the words

Lincoln Green and I presume that it's a colour. Yeah. I was thinking it was a place. There is a Lincoln... I'm thinking of a park. I don't know of any story related to it. But you're thinking of a colour.

Is it just a colour? You mentioned the Robin Hood green. No, that's Nottingham. No, that's Nottingham. I wouldn't call it Nottingham green. They imported it. He was... From Lincoln.

They started from Lincoln. They probably loved it. From a merchant. Robin Hood wasn't actually from Nottingham. It was from Lincoln originally. And he didn't give it to the poor. No, he just kept it all. You know,

I would say Lincoln, well, their football team play famously in red, yes. So I don't know if Lincoln Green is a thing. I sort of want to say now that that mystery's been solved, but I'm not sure it has. It's raised more questions, hasn't it? Now that what may or may not have been a mystery

has been further confused. If anyone has heard of Lincoln Green, help me out. I don't know what the hell you're talking about. Help me out, mate. Don't interrupt me there. Now that we've cleared that up. Yeah. Do you have a story for us from Lincolnshire?

I do, I do. We used to go, I'm not from Lincolnshire, I'm from the farmlands, but Lincoln was nearby. We used to go to Lincoln for school trips, specifically to Lincoln Cathedral. So Lincoln itself is an alright city, but in the middle of it, it's sort of pride and joy is its cathedral,

which is on top of a steep hill, which is a steep hill, beautifully named. And they kept it like an old cobbled street with little things and it leads up to the cathedral. So it's quite impressive.

You go there and there was once upon a time when it used to have a gigantic spire and for like 200 and something years, it was the tallest building in the world. So it was like 500 feet or something. What? And for a and something years it was the tallest building in the world so it was taught it's like 500 feet or something and for a long time it was that it was the tallest

building in the world until sort of 15 something it blew down because it was just it was far too high basically they made a paper yeah they went we went all out and then they built one out of straw they did and then eventually that blew down. And so it's sort of, I like it because I like anything that used to be very amazing and has since fallen from, I was obsessed with Gaza when I was growing up, but Gaza in my era was way past its prime. But I like that.

It was a once upon a time when they, and there's still glimpses of it, but it's, you know, it's not what it once was. Yeah. Well, as soon as you said it, I was just thinking this cathedral is very much the

Gaza of religious architecture of course it is because it was the tallest building in the world for 230 something years

it was on TFI Friday week in week out everybody loved it wasn't it St. Five Bellies didn't have a novelty hit with fog on

the time is all mine I think all mine all mine tragically left out of that world cup as well the cathedral yeah yeah yeah yeah but what was really interesting is when they printed the um the sticker book of the cathedrals they so thought he was going to be

picked the cathedral that it was including all the stickers as they often are anyway so it was once it was once a top player in the world of buildings let alone cathededrals. And now, I mean, it's still the third biggest cathedral in the country, you know, behind the old St. Paul's in York. Even though it blew down. Floor space, this is now. I've switched categories on you there. I've made a lateral move. Because it fell presumably right down,

and now it's long rather than tall. And they just thought, we'll just do it on the side. Yeah, it's like Gazoo. When you lose your pace pace you have to get creative and come up with other aspects of your game. And so they went with floor space. But what I like about it anyway

was that they have a little, they have a story about it anyway. About the Lincoln Imp is their story. Which is why the Lincoln Imp is on,

like it's the mascot for the local football team. You're saying Lincoln Imp as if it's a phrase that we should just accept. Well it's as famous as Lincoln Green. Yeah, it's as famous as Lincoln Green. Yeah, it's as famous as Lincoln Green.

Have you not heard of the Lincoln Imp? No, I've never heard of it. I mean, I only really heard about Lincoln five minutes ago. Okay, fair enough. The Lincoln Imp is obviously like a little devil creature. So it's where we get impish from and things like that. And it's sort of a sprightly, almost like a poltergeist, really. And it's a gargoyle basically

there's a very higher top in the Lincoln but there's only one of them and it's a bit weird that that's there so there's a story behind it which come from that time now the story I have is actually I've been researching it and then actually I've added stuff to it I've really embellished it in my memory well one of the nice things is when

there's sort of genuine contemporary folklore like things that you were taught in school but aren't in any of the books. Yeah. That means they've evolved since they were in the books. Yeah. I don't know who added the bit I've got onto it, but it's in no part of Wikipedia. But it's good. I'll tell you my version.

The one I heard, anyway, growing up, was that there was, so in that sort of period where it was, this iconic building. So in the sort of 13th century, I guess, or 12th century. So it was a big deal, this building. And if you can imagine people obviously, you know, around the fens, which is below seaboard in this tiny thing, Lincoln could be seen from miles away. It's so flat you couldn't, you know, see for miles anyway. So Lincoln is the tallest building in the world.

It's this huge thing. And suddenly all these things started going wrong there and there were all these different stories about people's hats being knocked off. Seems to be the one recurrent theme that everyone can agree upon. There's all those different accounts about how mischief was caused by these imps, basically.

So the devil released these little imps to play in the cathedral. I mean, it's hard to imagine how hats could be knocked off in a place famous for not having anything that could block wind. Yeah. It's just inconceivable. Wind is really annoyingly adopted in this,

as if it's something... Yeah, because the part of the story, when I looked it up, there was like, and they came in with the wind. It's just inconceivable. Wind is really annoyingly adopted in this as if it's something, yeah, because the part of the story, when I looked it up, it was like, and they came in with the wind and after the... It mentions in the background that, by the way, it was really windy and then also someone's hat fell off. What? When it was windy, the imps would knock the hats off.

The imps would bring smells from different places with them and go Yeah, they made a noise A whispering noise But for ages there was always stories about you go into Lincoln Cathedral And there would be mischief I basically think what it is Is that people, it's bored children

Because all of the things they mention are things that you can imagine You know when you're in a church and there's a wedding And there's a baby there who you're trying to keep your eye on But goes off and causes it It's just all boring things like that Like oh someone knocked over an old pulpit or something, was pushed over. Like a baby would.

Somebody did a s*** in the chancel. And the cloisters are a mess. So there were devils sent by, well, there were little mini devils sent by the devil to cause mischief in this church. And there was always reports of things, basically mainly hat-related, for about 200 years 200 years

no not really but it was basically that's what the story all was there was these little creatures that were in there and um the spire as i said got knocked over that was wind related so what they've done it seems like a massive escalation to me from the imp to go i don't think this hat business is getting much coverage here. Clearly people aren't taking us seriously as a folklore. And we want to be remembered in history books. So they really ramped it up and they knocked over this spire. Which is very much the hat of the church.

It's very much the hat of the church. If we're looking at scale, just zoom out. And suddenly that's what they've done. They've just, they've just thought on a bigger level. And this knocked it off, obviously Lincoln, off its highest building in the world. So obviously, at that point, someone had to intervene. That caught the attention of the angels. And the angels froze the Lincoln imp who was hiding in the arches.

Because it's the only one of its kind. There's angels everywhere in stone and things like that. And then just there's one imp. So he's trying to hide in there. Got caught, turned to stone, and he's still there. But there was two of them, and the other one is apparently very apologetic and outside.

And the guy, I remember telling it to her, said, and still to this day in the courtyard, you can hear the wind. And that is the whispering apologies of the other imp. And that's true. You go to this courtyard, there will still be wind. As if the wind remaining is somehow very spooky. He's true. You go to this courtyard, there will still be wind. As if the wind remaining is somehow very spooky. He's right. This courtyard is very windy.

But you'll only hear the imp's windy message when it's windy. Oh, wait. Okay, wait. No, it's not actually that windy today. Wait. We'll listen for it. We'll check the weather. Whatever, a good couple of hours.

And yeah, basically in a cathedral, I think one of the most, the main features of a cathedral is that they are windy. There's also the Jesus stuff. Well, I mean, there's a lot.

And the hats. I do think about that when I think about cathedrals. You're true. Yeah, there are a lot of hats. But when I think about hats, I think about hats being knocked off

and I'm back to wind immediately. Yes. So, but the Lincoln Imp itself, that was, I only heard the thing about the spire being knocked off. And that actually, when I heard that story going, the Imps were released and they caused havoc and they blew down the spire and then the angel came in.

But I've researched it. That's no relevance to the spire knocking down and the Imp are completely separate. No one made those connections. All of the law seems to be on it is that it causes a bit of mischief and knocked off a few hats and were turned to stone. You're like the maverick detective who thinks the two cases are linked and everybody else is saying, come on, they're not. A hat gets blown off,

a building gets blown down, they're different things. And I'm there with like a cork board and string. Yeah, just red string. No, no, no, no, man. Windy blowing, it's the exact same MO. It's escalating It's a classic escalation

Yeah I feel like there must have been A middle thing Between Hat and Spire You don't just go from Hat to Spire Do you? Yeah you've had your fun Hat's fine

Where did this come from? It's acting out basically It's the imps graduating To full devilhood Do you know what I mean? It's like when you get Like a monkey Like a chimpanzee is a pet

When it's a baby And they think Oh how adorable It's so cheeky And then suddenly You realise that They can tear apart a human being

and they don't realise that and so every single chimp ownership story ends with oh it was lovely and then he tore my husband's arm off

and then we had to give him to the zoo and then an angel turned him to stone yeah sort of same with Gaza really

it's the same story again playful playful playful playful oh dear yeah okay

you can't say that, imp yeah you can say he's a racist, imp actually, Lincoln that would have been no cause for concern to be honest

that would have been in his pro favour going, oh come on he is quite racist though let him let him now I know he blows people's hats off

but some of the stuff he says is this imp are the imps still like, even though you've had two turned to stone? Well, this is it. There's one to stone, and then there's one... Still left around. It's whispering.

Oh, he's alive. He's still around, knocking around, and no one can find him. And his name, well, that's why I think he's gone into football mascot work since. Because, obviously, there's not as much work in wind as there used to be. So he's gone into, basically, he's one of those characters you see at a football match. Giant red thing. So is there an in? Yeah, he's called Poacher and he is the local mascot of the Lincoln team.

And he is, I met him, well the guy who played him. I was a mascot when I was 11. I used to go to Lincoln City every week or every other week. And my 11th birthday present, slightly too old for this, but you know those little kids that come on the thing 11 bit too old isn't it I asked for it

when I was about 8 and it didn't happen and then because the waiting list was very long I think so I must have well I must have asked for it later than that

9 or something the waiting list was about a year or so so I was just a bit too old and it was me and a bunch of 7 year olds but beforehand they go

oh meet the players and they go and this is Colin. He's Poacher. And it was just a middle-aged bloke going, all right, how you doing? And that kind of ruined it for me. Because for years, I was like, oh, I love him. I'd hugged him.

I've got things for him. And they did that to you as an 11-year-old. Think of the poor seven-year-olds. Seven-year-olds, tortured by it. Yeah. Why would they not introduce him as Poacher? Why would they? It was before the game.

Because one of the part of the big thing was that you get to, before the game, you get to come and meet the players as they arrive and you get to whatever. Have your dreams shattered. Was he in costume? No. No, all right.

That would be even worse, like, be in costume but they call him Colin. I think, as he said, he said, I think one of the parents might have raised, you could have worn the costume, mate.

And he was saying about how it's very hot I think they get into the costume right before they have no second before they have to but I don't know

if it was Colin but they definitely told us his name his human name yeah why do that his imp name this is Peter

I mean Spiderman sorry don't want to know but he is so the Lincoln Imps that's what they're sort of known as not a very successful football team but weirdly there is a very successful is. So the Lincoln Imps, that's what they're sort of known as.

Not a very successful football team. But weirdly, there is a very successful team called the Lincoln City Imps or the Lincoln Red Imps that play in Gibraltar. There is a small Gibraltar league. To give you an idea of how small it is, obviously, as a league, they've got one ground which all 22 teams play in. Not simultaneously. I mean, I'm not a football expert. Oh, yes.

It sounds like an admin nightmare. It's like multi-ball pinball. That's how they Release all the teams On the hour Every hour It's a 12 hour game It's really weird

I tell you what though If they did the World Cup like that I'd watch it It goes on for a long time Doesn't it But just get it all done In one go Like a Royal Rumble of football

Teams being introduced Every 15 minutes Here goes Lincoln City Here goes the next one Oh it's the Rock. I don't know why he's there. But what they've done, they've got all their teams,

but a couple of them have just co-opted English teams. So there is a Manchester United. They had changed their name recently. Now they're called Manchester something else. But they were called Manchester United of Rage. A separate team.

And the only other team, they had Manchester United. They were going to take that team, the famous football team. And the other team they took was Lincoln City. There must be someone from Lincoln involved in it. So they've got all these different team names,

but in and amongst them, for no reason, there's a Manchester United and there's a Lincoln City Red Imps. And the Lincoln City Red Imps, conversely to our rubbish Lincoln in England, in this bizarro world, they are the best team. They've won 22 leagues, the last 14 of which were consecutively. They recently represented Gibraltar in the Champions League.

So they've played the Champions League, which Lincoln would never watch. They've taken that name and really run with it. The Lincoln City Red Imps were in the Champions League? They were in the Champions League. So it's carrying the name to an international level. But my problem is they'll go, what a cool logo, what a great name. Let's look up this legend. And as I've explained to you, it being mostly wind-based,

it's not going to draw the tourists in to Lincoln in the way we really want to. But what I love about it is, like Lincoln shirt itself, it's just a bit crap. I think it's time for the scores now. Yes. So what is your first category for us, John Long? So first we'll be naming the name. Naming. All right.

There are one name. One name? Colin? No, two. Poacher. There's the Lincoln Imp, which is a name. One name? Colin? No, two. Poacher. There's the Lincoln Imp, which is a name. That's a... Yeah.

There's Poacher, the name of the Imp. There was Colin, the name of the guy who played Poacher. This is all the same thing. Yeah, absolutely. Names of the same thing. And also, you specifically said you didn't know for certain that Colin was his name. Yeah. Colin was a staff in the dark.

That's true. The names Lincoln City Red Imp being used twice, but for different... So that's the same name twice but with different meanings different meanings though so you've got a sort of Tower of Hanoi

of just like the same thing on top of it so it's slightly less impressive each time yeah and Lincoln Cathedral which is mostly the same it's got a lot of

different names which is quite interesting oh does it yeah but they're all basically variations of the same thing are you going to make

some of them up no there's just loads of like the list of the different names. There's loads of different variations on it being something about St. Mary's. It's St. Mary's Church. But at one point, they even refer to St. Mary of Lincoln. But that's definitely not where she's from. Not that one.

Oh, yeah. Oh, beloved Mary of Lincoln. I can't see how it could be higher than a two, I'm afraid, for the most. No. Because it is the same name at least twice. How do you score well in this category? By having good names in your story, John. I'm afraid. No. Because it is the same name at least twice. How would you score well in this category? By having good names in your story, John. I'm sorry.

Imagine a good name. Right, I get you. Just having like Gwendolyn's. Yeah, just good quality names. Yeah, that's true. Just to pluck a... I don't know if I can use a person's real name, but I'm going to use a person's real name

that I genuinely have to write emails to nowadays. His name's Mungo Penfold. And that's not even a myth. That's just like work. That's five out of five right there. I almost feel like we should give John an extra point for Mungo Penfold. Which is the name of the imp.

I have to write emails, Dear Mungo Penfold. I use his full name. And here's the reply to James Shakespeare. So, you know, fair's fair. That's made me realise that, again, feedback to the first two years of the podcast, people don't know which one of us our voices are from the picture. Oh, yeah. Because I always thought, well, I've got red hair and my name's Alistair, so it's obvious.

But then James is also a Scottish name. Yes. And James is my middle name. So, yeah. People have written in. People have written in one person said something on the internet once and they thought that this voice was his voice imagine this coming out of his face

it would be ridiculous there is no correlation between you realise it when you see radio you used to like radio people before you saw them and if you listened to them for a long time before you saw them they always sounded a lot thinner. They were when the shows start, obviously. But you see them 20 years later.

So I think at best it's a three out of five for naming. And really it's two out of five and an extra one for Mungo Penfold who's doing a lot of work in your corner. Did the angel have a name? No, the angel which came out of a Bible in some versions of the story. That's slightly interesting that it came out of a Bible. Oh, it popped out of a Bible. That's good. story, that's slightly interesting that it came out of a Bible.

Oh, it popped out of a Bible. That's good. That's the only slightly interesting element they've tried to add into it. That was like, it came out of a book. Like Jesus. Well, considering that the rest of the story was about a gargoyle that came to life and the place is full of angels made of stone, you'd have thought, no, no, no. I have to take you to task here because, strictly speaking, it's not a gargoyle, I think.

It's not. It's a small gargoyle. It's a grotesque. It's a grotesque, you're quite right. Oh, is this indoor-outdoor? A gargoyle has think it's not it's a grotesque it's a grotesque you're quite right oh is this indoor outdoor a gargoyle has water

water it's a fountain oh really the origin is the same as gargoyle I think thank you for reminding me what a gargoyle was

an example of what gargoyling was a gargoyle has to be a dragon I was looking right at you when you did it as well really threw me and so I mean

obviously it would be churlish of me to detract points for that but I'm tempted because he named something wrong yes he misnamed something And so, I mean, obviously, it would be churlish of me to detract points for that. No, fair enough. But I'm tempted. Okay. Because he named something wrong?

Yes. He misnamed something wrong. And here we are scoring the category. I know. I should have been careful. I've already put my money on three out of five, though, so I feel like I can't take anything back. Okay, we'll keep it. Write it down.

It feels like such a hollow victory. We'll inscribe that in the ledger. What is the next category? The next category is supernatural. Supernatural? Yes. It's an extremely supernatural story. I mean, how could someone's hat just come right off their head?

I know what you're thinking. Did the woman wearing the hat take it off herself? That was my first thought. No. She is not even involved in the equation. The hat goes from her head to the floor with her not making any action. Did she go upside down at any point? No. She is not even involved in the equation. The hat goes from her head to the floor with her not making any action. Did she go upside down at any point?

No. She remained stationary. I don't know. Throughout the entire process. Could a second person have lifted the hat? No, no, no. I know what you're thinking. And no people in leotards

like you sometimes see in shadow, like theater, nothing like that. Well, it has to be an imp. It has to be supernatural. I think once you've ruled out every possibility, then the only thing that's left, no matter how impish, as Sherlock Holmes once wrote, it has to be the truth or something.

Yeah, or something. Yeah, he famously said that. He said, I hate it when people leave that off. It's like when they leave off the end of the Lord's Prayer. Say the full thing. So I think it's five out of five. Yeah, it's a super-duper. How could we argue?

There you go. What's the next category? Wind. Yeah, I'd rather push a hand here. Wind category. Yeah, you've sort of blown it. You're not wanting to do a wind pun intentionally, but I think you have.

Cathedrals. Wind in a cathedral. I don't think we've ever done zero out of five, but I feel like there is either a lot of wind or absolutely no wind

in this story. Yeah. Well, wind wasn't around until a lot later. When was it brought in? 15th century, I think, wasn't it? The early wind farms

early wind farms were like producing it but in an artisan way from Holland they bring it in that's when the windmills came up they generated the wind

because what they used was they were they were like we're grinding a lot of corn and wheat while we're doing this and then they added the thing

and realised they could generate wind using the same mechanism of crushing well I think for me it feels like a 3 out of 5 on the grounds that what you just said was...

We're going to have to bleep that, but I think it's clear what I said. Yeah. Great is the word he said there. There's not a swear word that means the absolute truth, as far as I know. I know. The dogs... What was it you said anyway yeah so you said it was great yeah all right i think because we've got three out of five for being clearly

true yeah we will bleep that you can't just keep bleep just as you edit it you can't bleep everything i say so i'm swearing all the time well no because we've got chatty window haven't we because the wind talks whispers because you and you've got in the legend they did sort of get themselves out of jail by saying that the the the hat removing imps turn up when it's windy i would all encourage everyone to look up there's a video from the lincolnshire echo they put on youtube on their brief foray into youtube videos of um of like trying to uh talk about the lincolnshire imp story and they got a guy to talk about it, and he is just, yeah, again mentions the hats come up, as you might imagine. But the video of it, he even does end with,

and you can still hear him. But the best thing about it is it's a very close-up shot of just his shoulder and head, and then after a while of just that shot for about 30 or 40 seconds, just towards the end, they think, we need to mix this up. Just for two seconds, they just cut to his hands just gesticulating something very close up and then back to the face for the full interview what that means is he said something racist and

they've had to they've had to patch together two bit two not racist bits where they were like how are we gonna we've only got the one shot he was just quoting some of the racist things the imputes to say and so they just patch it together with a little bit of hand gesticulating, or noddies they call them when you go to the interviewer going, who goes, ooh. You see, this story, because I've cut all the racism out, actually there's not much to it when you cut the racism away. The imp used to do the hats.

I mean, that's a word. I've basically replaced a word with hats. And it sounded a lot more innocent now. I think we could go a four. All right. I think we could go a four. All right. I think we could go a four for wind. Four out of five for wind. That's very generous of you.

I agree. I agree. I love the way you score each other on this podcast as well. You really take each other to task. Good detective pair, you two. I've always thought we'd make a good detective pair. Are you interested in being a detective's assistant? Because I'm not competing for the top spot.

You famously appear to be from a different time period. Am I a ghost that helps you solve crime? Randall, get in. Can't believe I got hop-cooked again. Again. This is always happening to me. Yes, well, thank you very much. I'll take that.

Okay. What is your next category? My next category is... I'm going to call it Gazanus. It's about fall from grace, fall from glory, fall from once amazing things. To have peaked. To have peaked. Yeah.

Because I haven't got any stats here, but it feels to me, as a non-football fan, like this one has been 80% football and Gaza-related folklore. Yeah, well, to be honest i'm not massively into football but sort of surrounding thing about it so finding out there was a parallel club who were amazing with the same name did intrigue me bizarre world and the the two lincoln clubs sort of encompass the duality of gaza in that one of them is a huge success yeah and you know the other there's sad tragedy yeah the cathedral's the same as well

once great and glorious once really crap now it's not crap now it's still a great cathedral but it's just full of faults there's a thing they tried to do the architect who developed it

was really experimental so there's loads of weird parts to it and there's a bit where they tried to make this there's an illusion made by French architects where if you did all these

certain types of arches in a certain order you could create the illusion there was a passageway going through the wall almost and you could see all the way through the cathedral

even though it was a solid state but you can't because you just messed up the measurements and they've not gone back to alter that at all they're still just

what they tried to do here I'll tell you what Lincolnshire architects make a model first have you thought of that? it takes like 400 years to build a cathedral make a model first have you thought of that? it takes like 400 years to build a cathedral make a model

Gowdy made it look easy like working as you go it's really hard you should really plan ahead it does have one of the four remaining last remaining copies of the Magna Carta

you keep whipping facts out I mean it's got it has still got its moments of being a brilliant place but they messed it up they lent it to America and America went for a state fair in 1950

and America went this is quite nice we've got a lot of people that want to see it that didn't get around seeing it at the fair can we keep hold of it and so they just lost it for ages and we're like we still have it back it took them 50 years they finally gave it back and then lincoln said well we can't trust the cathedral because you lost it last time so it's now in lincoln castle actually i wouldn't trust that cathedral with paper as well too breezy too breezy we know what they do with paper. It's just going to blow away. It's a tragic figure, really.

I think it's four out of five. Four remaining pieces of the Magna Carta, and you give it to an American state fair. Not even a countrywide convention. It's in New York, not Chicago, not the Windy City. They're wise to it. So what is your... is it the final category

that was it that was all of them Lincoln Cathedral continues to disappoint throughout the centuries it is a disappointment I'm disappointed with it as my local cathedral

I don't know why I've got this weird parent-child relationship with my local cathedral I feel like you guys don't have this I don't know this is weird

I don't have a local cathedral I've got Durham Cathedral how do you feel about Durham Cathedral well you can listen to the episode of the podcast. Do your research, John, and you'll find out it's got some amazing stories. Well, it's got some stuff about cows in it. It's got a picture of a cow on the side of it. It's got a picture of a cow with historically inaccurate garb on the humans.

St. Mary's Church in Chipping Norton has an octagonal little porch. I think it's octagonal. Is that the end of that story? Yeah, but no other... However many signs it's got, no other porch has that many signs. And Princess Diana came and visited. Specifically? Yeah, for the porch.

The people's porch. This next tale takes us away to the windswept wilds of North West Scotland, a.k.a. Argyle. I have a tiny wee story for you about the Red Book of Appin. Is it a Scottish story? Is that why it's wee? Yes, it is a Scottish story. And Appin is a part of Argyle, which is where my mum is from. And I was looking through Westwood and Kingshill's book, The Law of Scotland, and I thought I'll just check out whether there's anything for that area.

And there's loads of things for that area. You might know Appin from Robert Louis Stevenson's Kidnapped. Do you know that book? The title ends in an exclamation mark. Yes, because it's a musical. Kidnapped. I haven't that book? The title ends in an exclamation mark. Yes, because it's a musical. Kidnapped. I haven't read that, I'm afraid. I've got an idea what it's about.

Yeah. Someone gets kidnapped. Anyway, so that's happened. And this story, according to, well, Westwood and Kingshill's book attaches it to Castle Stalker, which is a stone's throw away from where my mum grew up. And Castle Stalker is, celebrity name drop, the castle arg from Monty Python and the Holy Grail. Oh. So it's the real world castle that played that castle at the end of Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

Yeah. So pretty impressive. It's also one of the seats of the Stuart clan or family, which are the dominant clan of that area of Scotland. And it is the Stuart family that the Red Book of Appin story is attached to. That's not the same Stuarts that were royal family, or is it? I don't know. I'll just say yes, and then we'll let that in if it was. Yeah. Yes.

No. Oh, cool. Oh. So, the story of the Red Book of Applin. Well, there are three versions of it, just about. And the first has only one aspect of it that I like, and so I'll just tell you that bit. So, the Red Book of Applin was a powerful,

magical book of some kind. Its content is disputed, and we'll come to that later. Nobody knows quite how we got a hold of it. One of the ways is that a man had to ride out and steal it from a coven of witches. And the only thing I like about that is, according to Superstitions of the Highlands

and Islands of Scotland, 1900, according to that book, the first guy who got a hold of the red book rode out to the witches' meeting on an entire horse not uh not just legs no he didn't just roll there on a torso uh apparently what that means is a stallion not a gelding because when you think about it okay gelding's not an entire horse right no it's got a couple of bits missing exactly and famously apparently uh an entire horse is uh

unenchantable so that's how he managed to get a hold of this powerful magical book but i don't like that version of the story so here's the other version of the story is he going half a horse the left oh you wouldn't go that's how you divide it down the middle i would have gone i thought actually i would go with the back yeah and be like getting a piggyback but but with muck in front of you yeah you'd need some netting to hold it in anyway it's a horrible idea the the other version of the story is that there was a young boy who was uh either in the in the charge of the the stewart family or he was a miller's apprentice and he wasn't very happy with his lot and he was sort of kicking his heels one day just doing pranks flicking berries that passes by and things and

a stranger a charming and mysterious stranger brackets who is the devil approached him and said you don't seem to be enjoying your current job would you like to come and work for me and he said yeah maybe he said all you have to do is sign your name in this book and he produced a red book and the boy said ah it feels a bit weird and he said it's not weird just sign your name in the book what's wrong with signing sign the book and he said can i i need to go and ask my boss or the my lord um if if i can do that and he said all right but you've got to promise to come back and meet me at the crooked pool in the middle mountain and so he lets the boy go and the boy goes and talks either to lord stewart or to the village elders and the village elders go oh that guy was

clearly the devil right but you've promised to go and meet him so you have to go and meet him, you can't not go now. But here's what you do, they give him either a wand, you're doing a very sceptical voice. What's the worst that's going to happen if you don't go and meet the devil? If you've broken a promise to the devil? The devil will come and get you. He might be annoyed. Just keep away,

ideally keep away from the devil and stay home. Well they have a better ploy, which is they arm him with either a sword or a wand. And they say, you go back there, and the first thing you do is you draw a circle around yourself, and then you're safe. And so he goes to the crooked pool in the middle mountain,

and he draws a circle around himself, and then the bad guy, the devil, appears. And he says, oh, you decided to come and work with me? Do you want to sign this red book? Come over here and sign it. And he says, no, I'm not going to move. And so he persuades you decided to come and work with me do you want to do you want to sign this red book come over here and sign it and he says no i'm not going to move and so he persuades the the devil to to pass him the book and as soon as the book enters the magic circle it drops from the desert the devil's hands and he grabs a hold of it immediately and doesn't sign it and the devil really really wants him to sign it and he keeps refusing to sign it and the once the devil realizes

he's not going to sign it he becomes absolutely furious and he becomes he transforms into a grizzled greyhound and then dashes against the circle and then he becomes a roaring bull and then he becomes a flock of crows quote sweeping above the youth so near that the wind caused by their wings would have carried him out of the circle if he had not clung to the heather the boy withstands the whole thing holding on to the book and then the sun rises and the cock crows and the devil disappears and then he brings home the red book and here's the thing the red book of appin is either a secret book of satanic ritual magic or a guide to looking after cows because the stewarts had really good cows. Loads of really nice cows. And it is believed that the secret to that were the diabolical secrets of the Red Book of Appin

and its veterinary cattle-related mysteries. Right, yeah. Just hot tips from the devil for farming. Yes, it is a guide to farming. Yeah, like animal husbandry for dummies. Animal husbandry for devils. That, it is a guide to farming. Yeah, like Animal Husbandry for Dummies. Animal Husbandry for Devils. That's pretty much what the book's about. And if you Google it now, it is available on Amazon.

Oh. You can buy... And this is nonsense, but you can buy a book that purports to be the true Red Book of Appin, colon, the grimoire of Vlad the Impaler. Wait a minute. Yeah, the famously Scottish of vlad the impaler wait a minute yeah the famously scottish man vlad the impaler what uh and it uh even even their description of it says uh this

legendary red book of appin has been spoken of for centuries uh variously theorized as a medical handbook for livestock or a manuscript of devil worship it's presented here in its true form for the first time for one1.24 Kindle, £4.70 paperback. What? The front cover, it's not even red. They only made the cover

of it red. What are the reviews? Unenthusiastic. One of them said it was just some drawings with no words. Was it just drawings of animals?

It might just be drawings of the ministrations that a farmer needs to perform sometimes on a cattle farm. Yep. Wow. So that is the short story of the Red Book of Appin. Another Scottish wizard. Oh, I forgot one thing.

Twist. The M. Nightshallaman twist. Yeah, I don't know how to pronounce it. But I said it with confidence. But it's one of those things, it's like you get towards the end and you realise you've been wrong the whole way through about how you should say his name. Some versions of the story have the mysterious gentleman

who approaches the youth as being Lord Stewart himself. Yeah, that he himself was the devilish wizard who carried all these secrets and wrote the Red Book. So, hmm. Hmm, that doesn't make any sense. No so that doesn't make any sense no it doesn't make any sense oh he wants to tempt him out of a job working for himself oh is he just trying to get him to sign a new contract without reading it and like he's actually reducing his hours and he's turned into a zero hours contract or something i think that's it yeah and now we shall score so my first

category for you is naming. Oh. I said that with more enthusiasm than I should have. Because Stuart, that's a name. Potentially. What do you mean, potentially? Well, yeah, Stuart is a name. It's potentially a name involved in the story. It could either work for the Stuarts or he worked for, what was his other job? Oh, here we go.

Oh. Yep. Yep, he's back on the case. Hello. I'm getting back onto the horse saddle. Oh, I've slipped off because it was half a horse. I forgot that the same book, Superstitions of the Highlands and Islands of Scotland,

includes a list of alternative names for the devil. Oh, great. And they are the worthless one. These are all in Gaelic, but the translator knows. Yeah, exactly. The one whom I will not mention. Yon-Wan. That's my favorite one. Y are all in Gaelic, but the translator knows. Yeah, exactly. The one whom I will not mention. Yon-Wan. That's my favourite one.

Yon-Wan, yeah. The one big one. That's Billy Connolly. A lot of these are Billy Connolly. Right, they're also named for Billy Connolly. The one from the abyss. That was Bill Paxton. The big sorrow.

The son of cursing. The mean mischievous one. The big grizzled one. The bad one. The bad spirit. And Black Donald. Oh spirit, and Black Donald. Oh, going down Black Donald. My favourite thing, I don't speak

Gaelic, but the Gaelic version of that appears to be Donald Do, which is like two letters away from Donald Duck. So, who can you trust? Donald Do, that's like a Dr. Seuss character, I think. That genuinely is a Dr. Seuss character. Well, that's the devil. So, admittedly, we've entered the scoring section, but I'm hoping to slip those in under the radar to avoid a low score well those are all names and they've

impressed me much that and they are all names it's good that shania twain isn't scoring this but i am aware that they're nothing to do with the story apart from it's the devil but then it is the devil and it's the same book so it's two pages earlier. Five. Five? No. Wait a minute. I forgot it was out of. I thought it was out of six, six, six. No, four.

Yeah. Four, all right. So the next category, supernatural. Yeah, okay. Transmogrification. What? He transforms into all different things. Oh, yeah, he did, yeah.

We've got that. We've got a magic circle. They got worse and worse as it went on. We've got a fox. Big scary worse and worse as it went on we've got a big scary wolf a bull some crows we've got a clansman who is suspiciously good at rearing cattle that is that is that is one element of the story yes well you got the actual devil or just a very charming person from hr that wants to push through a new policy we've got the actual devil or just a very charming person from HR that wants to push through a new policy. We've got a crooked pond. How can a pond be crooked? A crooked pond, middle mountain.

That should have taken some points away from naming. Crooked pond, the middle mountain. Just middle mountain. The middle mountain. Say it with a Tolkien-esque, the middle mountain. Middle mountain. Yeah. It is on yonder Middle Mountain.

Yeah. Which one? Come on. There's three. I'm not doing it all for you. What was it again? Supernatural? Yeah.

The devil transforming potentially some wizardry with a wand or something. Yeah, yeah. It's a three. Are you? What? I know it's the three. Are you... What? I know it's the actual devil, but not much happens to it. He does a little trickery.

Three, because the book might just be a manual. May God have mercy on your soul. My next cash reward for you is devilry. Now, there's a lot of it. Good, because you've got to be really lowly

and supernatural. Well, because I wanted a bit low in the supernatural and I feel like I need to scrape something I wanted a bit more from the devil he just said meet me by a pond on the mountain

in the middle that's how the devil comes in he's like all pally he's your mate he's not he sounds like a bit of an aggressive

charity mugger at the beginning just write your name down just sign this petition they always approach me with like hey cool guy I love your hair

they're not I don't know what the accent is they always touch yeah like hey yes we should hang out maybe after this you want to sign something yeah i thought when he when he was like do you want to come and work for me and i knew this was leading to a red book i thought it was going to be like some sort of one of those trick questions where he's like work for me sure and then he skins him and makes him the cover of the book like i thought the red book was going to be like because it was blood but it's just red or if you buy it on amazon it's either has no cover at all because it's a download or it's black i like the idea i just think putting your name in the book he's trying

to get him to do that and he doesn't do that i quite like yeah and the circle no he tricks the devil i always think it's nice when the underdog tricks the devil yeah like getting him to put the book into the circle yeah oh just bring the book over here i can't see it i did like that the devil in this story just turned up a little bit far away and was just like i'll just come over here mate because like as if you went to meet someone in the street and they were like i'll meet you by the pond and you just stood at one point of the pond and refused to move. You said by the pond, I'm not going anywhere. Well, why don't we come and sit on this bench? No. Like, if it was a guy from HR, he would

have been very confused by this. Which proves that it was the devil and therefore I should score highly in the category of devilry. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's high devil. It's five out of five for devilry. I think it should be six out of five. My final category, amount of horse. Not five out of five. It's a full horse. The entire horse. It's the Devil. It's five out of five for Devil Ray. I think it should be six out of five. My final category, amount of horse. Not five out of five.

It's a full horse. The entire horse. It's the entire horse. Five out of five. Good. Or should it be one? Because it is one horse. One whole horse.

I didn't say amount of horses. I said amount of horse. Yeah. Full five. Congratulations. Thank you. I gallop away on just a leg. Just like a pogo.

I just pogo out. And there's like blood splurts on each one. It's a very macabre pogoing incident. You've been listening to Lawmen, the Lawmen of James Shakespeare and Alastair Beckett King. Please subscribe, rate, review and recommend to a friend. You can tweet us at LawmenPod or email us at contact at lawmenpodcast.com

to suggest stories from your area. Lincoln Imp. Where's Lincoln... East Midlands, isn't it? This next tale, it's from Lincolnshire, specifically Lincoln, specifically Lincoln Cathedral in Lincoln. I think you've given away quite a lot there. Yeah.