Loremen Podcast - S2 Ep5: Loremen S2 Ep5 - The Unfortunate Farmer's Daughter and The Spanish Chest

Episode Date: January 17, 2019

A knight errant lobs a baby in a stream and twins are struck deaf by a sinister wooden chest. Curious tales of the macabre and absurd from your friendly neighbourhood Loremen. Alasdair relates what is potentially the most problematic rom-com premise ever. James tells us about a spooky storage solution. (Does feature guns). Find the show notes here: www.loremenpodcast.com/episode-5-s2 (Includes THAT picture) @loremenpod www.instagram.com/loremenpod www.loremenpodcast.com/about www.facebook.com/LoremenPod @JamesShakeshaft | @MisterABK

Welcome to Lawmen, a podcast about local legends and obscure curiosities from days of yore. I'm Alistair Beckett-King, a killer queen, dynamite with a laser beam, guaranteed to blow your mind, anytime. And I'm James Shakeshaft, such a naughty nanny. In this story, we'll meet an unfortunate farmer's daughter and a very, very, very bad man. James. Yes? Have I got a story for you? I don't know. It was a weird way of starting it. Yes, you have, because that's why I pressed record button.

Yes, correctly inferred. James. What about this way? Alistair, you got a story for me? Yes, I do, James. Thank you for asking. It was seamless. I don't know why you sniggered. It was a small horse. Right, let's get back on the small horse. James, I have a story for you called The Fish and the Ring, or The Cruel Knight, or The Fortunate Farmer's Daughter. Whoa.

Yeah. This sounds a very complex story, then. It's not a very complex story, but it's a very long story, which I'm going to try and reduce. So it's recorded in a popular ballad, but I found an account which purports to be the real story behind the popular ballad. And it's about a young baby. Do you remember, like, was it VH1 or MTV that was like behind the music? This is like a medieval version of that. Yeah, exactly. Behind ye ballad.

Exactly. So in 1619, a baby was born to a poor farmer, a middling farmer in yorkshire middling is the is the phrase and they had had a baby every year for six years so they had six children and they were just about to have another big fans of the babies obviously but middling farmer a little bit worried about what the uh the next child was going to do to their financial situation as the as the mother was giving birth she let out one of those cries that women do in those situations and a an errant knight a yorkshire knight riding past heard that cry and because he was into astrology he immediately did the star chart of the the baby that he just

heard being born right and he discovered that the baby was destined to become his own wife. Now, you have pulled a very appropriate face. That is a bad start to a horrible story. So he goes off, a little bit

worried, not quite sure what to make of that. He comes back the next day and says, did I hear a baby being born here last night and they say yeah here it is um little rebecca russell um she's just been born she's one day old and he said i'll tell you what i'm a knight how about i buy this baby from you and it should go into service with me a night and they say well we don't really want to do that because we love our children. On the other hand, we've got seven of them now. So, yes. Let me just check something in this book.

I think I had a price. Of this specific baby or just a price in general? Is it a book of baby prices? Well, the price for this specific baby, according to The Fabled Coast by King's Hill and Westwood, was £3,000, which if it is 1619, I think is all of the available money at the time. So I'm not sure if that is a correct figure, but that's the figure that I've got. He says, I'll give you three grand for the baby.

Shall I deserve it? And they say, well, that seems fairly reasonable. So with a tear in their eye, they hand over the baby. And he, the knight-errant, looks at the baby and immediately throws it in the river ooze. Oh. Not immediately. He rides away so they don't see it. So they don't know that's happened.

Right, okay. So he throws it in the river ooze, which is the river that runs through York. Yes. I know the ooze. Yeah. The secret of the ooze is what the turtles sequel is about. That's why, yeah. Yeah.

He rides on his way, happy. Happy? Satisfied with a job well done. Well, just aware that something's happened at the very least. But the baby floats downriver. Cool. And is found by a fisherman who hauls her out of the river and looks after her for the next 11 years

because he and his wife don't have any children. Everything's going fine now until the fisherman is telling the story of how he found his little girl in the inn one night, and who should happen to be in that inn but the Yorkshire Knight, who I've just remembered I didn't tell you his name. Oh, go on. His name

John Tempest. Johnny Tempest! John Tempest! John Tempest! Oh, wow. Possibly star of a 70s detective show, I think. Or just like a singer. Tempest. Johnny Tempest.

Johnny Tempest. Swing guy. I see him played by... Lock up your daughters. Here comes Johnny Tempest. He will chuck them in the river. He's a lunatic. I see him like Samuel L. Jackson in Pulp Fiction.

That's how I'm visualizing John Tempest, I think. Okay. The guy with the wallet. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So he goes, that's fascinating, the story that you just told about how you found this girl. How about you give this girl into service for me at night and I'll train her up and educate her and all the rest of it.

And they say that seems fairly reasonable, so they hand her over a second time. For free this time? For free this time, as far as I know. Johnny Tempest. So he drives a hard bargain, John Tempest. This time? This time. So he does the astrological chart again, just to double-check that she is

his wife. It confirms that she is going to be his wife, and so he's furious. And so he kills her in the most logical way possible. He sends her to his brother, known as the Lancastrian Knight. He's a knight that lives in Lancaster. Jimmy Tempest.

Sorry, Lancashire. Yep. Jim, presumably Jimmy Tempest. Jim Tempest, yep. And with a letter that says, kill this girl. So she asks her, presumably not to read the letter. Maybe she can't read. She has to carry the letter saying, kill this girl to him,

and then he's going to kill the girl. However, during the journey, the place he's going to kill the girl. However, during the journey, the place she's staying is robbed and the thief comes in and he goes straight to the portmanteau

looking for gold or silver or anything like that. All he finds is a letter. He opens it up, brackets, and can read, which seems unlikely.

He reads the letter and he thinks, that's not on. So he scrumples it up and writes a new letter that says, look after this girl and give her a good education, et cetera. Your brother, that's not on. So he scrumples it up and writes a new letter that says, look after this girl and give her a good education, etc. Your brother,

John Tempest. And so when she arrives, the Lancastrian knight does exactly that. He raises her up. Another 11 years pass, she's basically a young adult. He's planning to marry her now, the Lancastrian knight, even though he's Jimmy Tempest, even though he's too old for her. So he invites his brother over

and his brother arrives and then he says, what's going on here? I specifically told you too old for her. So he invites his brother over, and his brother arrives, and then he says, what's going on here? I specifically told you to murder this girl. And he says, you didn't. Here's the letter. And he says, that's an obvious forgery. I would have said murder. So he's furious with her. And so he takes her, quick as a flash, to Bristol,

which I have checked is quite far from Lancashire, but as far as I can tell, that's where he takes her, to drown her, even though Lancashire has a coast. But anyway, he goes to Bristol, tries to drown her in the sea. And this is where the history and the ballad sort of diverge. So I'll do the ballad version of it here. He threatens her. He says, I tell you what, I've had enough of you hounding me, perfectly innocent woman who never did anything. I'm going to take this ring. He takes her ring off. I'm going to throw this ring into the sea. I'll marry you on the day you bring me this ring. And he throws his ring into the sea, which would be super cliffhanger if the

title of the story weren't the fish in the ring sort of perhaps spoiling what might happen later could be quite a nice surprise yeah it could have been a nice surprise had it not been called the fish in the ring anyway the other version of that is he's trying to drown her and a and a local uh gentleman called mr elliot i I think, comes by. Let me just check the name there. Wouldn't want to get that. The one true part of this obviously nonsense story. Inaccurate.

I wonder whether we're going to slander him or sing his praises. Is he going to join in with the drowning? His name is not Elliot. A local landowner called Thomas Elton walks past and thinks, whoa, something's up here. And so he goes over and intervenes. And in the history version of it, John Tempest manages to convince him that it was a lover's tiff rather than a man attempting to murder a woman for the third time. And so he says, well, let's sort it out this way. We'll come to a compromise between the wanting not wanting to marry and the not wanting to be murdered positions. between the not wanting to marry and the not wanting to be murdered positions. And he persuades them to take the ring,

cast the ring into the sea as a way of preventing the union in a way that keeps everybody happy. And then he takes the young girl into service. And she's in service with him for many years. Johnny Tempest or Tommy Elton? Thomas Elton, the nice man. And he's got children who she grows up with

and she marries a local soldier who then gets killed. Not important. And then one day while she's preparing a fish for the house, you are going to be dazzled with surprise when you hear this. She cuts it open and what is inside it? The ring, James. The very... Yeah. Couldn't have anticipated

it the very ring that she that was thrown in the sea she finds and so she brings it to the knight and as soon as he sees it he falls instantly in love with her and they get married and live happily ever after which is a really really unsatisfying ending that's how the ballad ends the actual

history ends with them getting married and it clearly being a terrible idea and then he dies and then she marries one of Mr Elton's sons and her third marriage seems to work out reasonably well. Oh right, so the dead soldier is part of all of them. The dead soldier's long gone. True and ballad.

No, the dead soldier's not in the ballad, he's in the true story. Like 11 years past or something. And so the true story so he's just a little because like 11 years past or something and so uh the this i mean the the true story is full of ridiculously irrelevant details like um the lancaster knight died and left her a property in bow in essex which i suppose explains why she has uh in stepney church there is a a testament to or at least there was in 1843 at the time that this was written and it has sort of carvings of fish and rings and three mullets. The first impaled with azure, an amulet and fish between two bends, beneath which is inscribed a really, really long,

here lieth the body of Dame Rebecca Berry, as she was then, wife of Thomas Elton of Stratford. Including this passage, which I think you'll agree is questionable. It says, She was free from pride, was free from strife, free from sorrows, brawls and jars of human life and civil wars. Couldn't be less accurate. Yeah. As far as we know, all the things that happened to her were pretty bad.

Yeah. It's the worst story I've ever heard. Yeah, that is like, just around at dinner at Johnny Tempest. He's like, oh, how did you meet? Well, actually, funny story. The first time we met, we didn't actually get on. Yeah.

He threw me in the river ooze. Yeah. The one from the Turtles film, yes. But after that, you obviously made it up. No, no, no. He tried to kill me a couple more times, and then I returned some of his jewellery. He gave up.

He gave up fighting the stars, I guess. Yeah. Is that what he controls? I think that's the thing about if you're writing stories set in 1619, you could just write a series of absolutely **** incidents that didn't make any sense, and then just go, Destiny!

Yeah. And that would pass in the place of dramatic structure that gets that gets you on a wall in a church yeah definitely yeah that's a real roller coaster it's not a real roller coaster no that'll be a harrowing roller coaster oh no i don't know maybe it'd be like a log flume at the start and then because the water and then splash yeah and then the roller coaster would go to lancashire and then it would go and splash again yeah yeah it's not very good roller coaster actually it's not a roller coaster at all it's it's uh it's is it domestic abuse because no it's just abuse it is it is just it is just abuse it's bad. He's just picking on this woman. Like, it's the ultimate in negging. I don't know if you're aware of negging.

Well, I'm going to pretend I'm not so you can explain it. It's a technique developed by psychopathic men. It's, what's it called, that thing? Pick-up artistry. P-U-A. Pick-up artist. Pwah. Yeah.

It's weird. The little bits that I've heard of it are very peculiar. You need to be a bit of an oddball so that you stand out. So if everyone in your group of friends has got hair, you shave your head or something like that so that you're the one that stands out. If everyone dresses normally, wear a Hawaiian shirt. Be a d***. If all your friends wear a Hawaiian shirt, be a d***.

If all your friends are all right, be an absolute d***. It's basically the end game of it. And so negging is a method of this pick-up artistry. It's not an art. It's not like sculpture or opera. Yeah, it's certainly not a fine art. You just be rude to women, and that somehow makes them want to sleep with you.

So what you're suggesting is that throwing someone in the river as a baby... He's playing the long game, yeah. Yeah. I did and it worked. Eventually she came... She came running to him stinking of fish with brandishing jewellery.

She brought the jewellery. This is a horrible story. I thought the fact that she was raised by fishermen was going to come back in. And she was going to use her fisherman skills. Like when he chucked the ring and she just like cast off quickly and like catch it. That's the kind of sort of narrative detail that a story that was

made up would have had. A story that was completely true wouldn't have. It was full of narrative details but they were just,. It was full of narrative details, but they were just... Well, they weren't necessarily narrative details. It was just full of details. A lot of details. So, to the scores, James. Yes. My first category for you is naming. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. I mean, even if it was just Johnny Tempest and all the Tempest bros... Jay Tizzle. Yeah. Is it possible to let that out? No. That is hardwired.

Yeah, the Jay Tizzles. I'm presuming it's, I don't know. The Jays Tizzle when they were together. Yeah. I hope his name was Johnny and Jimmy Tempest. Are you stuttering or rapping? Because I'm not aware. A little bit of both. I just spit fire sometimes.

It's a horrible condition. Yeah, whether or not the other one's called Jimmy or not, there aren't many names that he could be called that would ruin your scores, even here. I think maybe... Alan Tempest. Alan Temp think maybe... Alan Tempest. Alan Tempest. Even Alan Tempest has got something about him.

A smaller Thunderbolt there. Yeah. Not as big as John Tempest. Yeah. Or Bernard Tempest. That's... I don't know. I think he...

Bernie Tempest. Bernie Tempest? Yeah. He'd also do the club circus. Yeah. He'd be a magician. Maybe a bit of puppetry. Yeah.

It's Bernie Tempest. You might know my more famous brother, Johnny. circus yeah a magician maybe a bit of puppetry yeah it's bernie tempest uh you might you might know my more famous brother johnny uh yeah so johnny and jimmy tempest potentially jimmy tempest we've got rebecca russell she's got an actual name and usually the heroines of these stories don't have surnames i don't know i've got a slight issue here i didn't want to say this before i feel i have to say it now because we are scoring names. And I don't know if I'm casting aspersions. I don't know how to say casting aspersions.

Aspersion? I think aspersions. I think you're saying it. Casting aspersions. Because how did the Fisher people know that she was called Becky Russell? Because she was like a one-day-old baby. She was a baby, yeah. That had been called Becky Russell and hoided like a one-day-old baby. She was a baby, yeah.

That had been called Becky Russell and hoided in the river. You've got me. Yeah. I don't have an answer to that. I mean, that isn't the only thing that's a little bit hard to swallow, like a ring or a fish. Maybe she remembered her name was Rebecca when she was thrown in the river as a one-day-old baby. Maybe because they've got seven kids.

Actually, I'm going to help you out here. They've got seven kids. They need to write their names on the labels. The illiterate farmers almost certainly wrote the name on the baby. Yeah, and it was probably a hand-me-down, so actually probably her older sister was called Becky Russell. Yeah. But I thought it was going to go into like Seventh Sun, isn't it,

that's magic, magical. But she did end up in the River Seven down by Bristol. Yeah, I suppose. Well done. The River Ribble is one of my favourites. David Bowie's favourite river. River Ribble.

Anyway. Because of the song Rebel Rebel. Because of the song Rebel Rebel. That's what I was getting at. I didn't think it was necessary to... Well, I just wanted to... Go on your favourite. We might need to pop it in the edit.

Yeah, and then you've got, boom, Tommy Elton. There's a lot of musical, because I felt that Johnny Tempest is probably the name of a swing singer from America. You've got Tommy, the musical by The Who about the Deaf, Dumb and Blind kid. Yes, but he was good at pinball. Yes, he was. Also, he was actually really good at the crane game. I am actually genuinely really good at the crane game. Are you?

Yes, a blessing and a curse. I'm genuinely good at it. Yeah, Elton, Elton John. The soldier's name was Robert Berry. Bobby Berry? That's again, these are all crooners at the least. The fish isn't named, unfortunately. Not even as a type. A cod. Oh, it was a cod. Yeah, it was a cod. Sorry, at the least. The fish isn't named. Not even as a type. A cod.

Oh, it was a cod. Yeah, it was a cod. Sorry, I didn't realise I hadn't mentioned that crucial detail. Impressive. Yeah, so, I mean, this is a well-researched story full of names. Yeah, I've given you... I'm going to actually give you five out of five. Yes!

Really? Because of Johnny Tempest. Thanks, John. JT. His name isn't even mentioned in the ballad, by the way. Ooh. But it is in the history, so... Supernatural.

Ooh. Well, let me pitch some of the supernatural occurrences in the story to you. How supernatural is angling? I don't know, but astrology... Extremely supernatural. So astrology happens twice, and the whole story is about destiny, which is also supernatural. And magic fish. Coincidence.

That's very much a coincidence. The whole story is full of coincidences because of destiny, fated fish. I think it's a very unlucky woman sounds like this tragic story of very unlucky Becky Russell

I refer you to the title of the story The Fortunate Farmer's Daughter no there's a it's canon that she's actually very lucky The Fortunate Farmer's

three thousand grand up for the seventh kid daughter who had a terrible terrible life that we're going to tell you about but i almost think that the level of bad luck she had was supernatural like i don't think it's i don't think this is just i don't i don't think this much bad luck could just happen to a person

without supernatural fated coincidences owning me many points it's just nothing spooky about a cod is it the type of fish catfish maybe because they're because their mustaches they look a little bit evil yeah carp because you can get human face carp and that might have been it or if the fish had swum into the ring no that would just be weird like it had like a corset on that would be spookier. That would be spookier. Alright, well then what's your number? Oh. One.

One? One, yes. Wouldn't know destiny if it slapped you in the face. I'm not letting Johnny Tempest off for his evil, evil deeds.

Well, on that note the next category is Ridge... We're going to have to bleep the word every time we say it in this category, but there is no other word to describe what an absolute he is, in my view. We could refer to him as a rich. We're going to bleep that as well.

Fair point. I don't think there's any unbleepable word that we could use to describe John Tempest. Bad mother... That's his wallet. Which is now empty because he spent all the money on being able to murder a baby in his mind. When you've got a hobby. I guess it's like

Big Game Safari thing, isn't it? It's exactly like that. Just think, oh, I've got a... Just lobbing a baby in a stream. Just the Yorkshire version, which is farmer's daughters. Poy that in the river. But then his brother... Remember he tried to seduce and marry Rebecca while she was staying there. Oh yeah, the 11

year old. Yep, well, to begin with. I don't know why I'm defending him. Oh yeah. Five of those 11 years. Fair enough. What's his name? Tommy John? Tommy Elton. He had a bit of money. He had a bit of cash right okay

yes but he didn't have enough money to negate the tempest bros no who were just like rocking up in a northern town and seeing how many babies they can buy even the poor presumably the robber is not that rich because yeah he does not pay no not in that case he didn't get any money out of it but he did a good deed and he did so he's not all the poor people are nice yeah i mean it's going to be a lot of points for rich yeah it evidently it seems that money makes you although there are some nice people that aren't 100% poor. So, four. Four, just because of Tommy flipping Elton.

Tommy Elton and his kindly family. Yeah. Who also did marry, one of them did marry her. Yes. Yeah, that's a bit weird. It was this time of the time. Was she 22 by the time she rocked up at Tommy? She would have been fairly elderly, I think, because she was on her third husband by that time.

Yeah. On that note, my final category for you, it was a different time. Oh, yeah. The olden days when you used to be... Like, nowadays you can't chuck a baby in the river. No, not without people looking askance. Or like being some sort of twitstorm

about it. No, exactly. A woman put one cat in a bin. One cat! And I still think about it every day. Yeah, it was a different time. That's a fact. So I think five out of five, simply. Five out of five, thanks to the passage of time.

Yeah, because it is, like, literally it's true. Figuratively, evidently, you could buy babies for three grand. I feel like the happy ending of getting to marry the man who had tried to murder you on three separate occasions, once as a baby, wouldn't necessarily fly as a happy ending these days. Yeah. In the 21st century. And also, like, the believing in the astrology. Like, imagine, like, you're in the barbers, which is the only time I would ever read the Zodiac, not the column written by the murderer.

I immediately thought Zodiac Killer. I immediately thought Zodiac Killer. He might well have a column, because we don't know who he is. But no, you know, the astrology pages. You look at your one, Sagittarius. It's going to be a tough week this week. Pretty sure that once this haircut's finished, I'm going to have to go out and bite and kill a baby.

Like, it was a different time. Even if it said that, why? Wait a minute. Why did he even want to kill her? So he didn't have to marry her. Oh, because he didn't want to marry a peasant. Because he's a knight. Oh, right.

Should I have mentioned that at the start? Maybe. You accepted the baby killing very readily, considering I forgot that. Well, I think... I don't think I accepted it. I just didn't... Well, you frowned quietly.

Yeah. As if to say, oh, no. I think I might have gone, ooh. So, oh, right, yeah, okay. Oh, well, that makes a bit more sense now. I'm a little bit more on his side. This Sir John Tempest. By the way, are you imagining him sort of swinging by a leg?

Because I've been shot putting Imagining him shot putting the baby Yeah, more like an American football Like a spiral Get a good old spiral on it With the muslin unrappling As it goes through the air Like a loo roll at a football match

In the 80s I think we've successfully Normalised Chucking a baby in a river. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, it was a different time. Five points. Five points, thank you.

Yeah, definitely. That said, and obviously we're going to have to delete slash bleep what I'm about to say. But if it came out this exact thing had happened to ****, I'd sort of believe it. Are you saying that you think **** thrown a baby? I'm not saying he has. But if it came out that he has. Ah, okay. But will it come out that Johnny Tempest has made films that are quite funny?

That are quite good. Some of them are very good. Some of them redefine comedy. Well, you know, when you make a film a year, they can't all be great. No, so don't. I feel like... So don't. Also, leave children, allegedly.

Especially, even not, don't. I feel like it's got to the point where we can't really bleep who we're talking about. But if we were to get sued, it would be a bit like he was admitting it. Because he'd be like, oh, who do you think we're talking about? Oh, who do you? The guy who throws babies in rivers. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you chuck a baby in the river as well now.

Different time. Now, here's a classic tale of haunted furniture. Or at least scary furniture. I've also got a tale from Peter Underwood. Peter Underwood? Yes. The president of the Ghost Club? Yes, and celebrated ghost hunter.

Is that what it says on the back of the book? Did you look at the back of the book as you said it? Peter Underwood, this is from the About the Author page from this book, Ghosts of Cornwall. And what I really like, the font, they've managed to make the font of ghosts look spooky by using very extreme drop shadow.

Nice, extremely hard drop shadow. I do love a spooky font. Ironically, a ghost wouldn't cast a shadow. No. Or it is a shadow. Yeah, a shade, perhaps. So Peter Underwood, this is from the About the Author page,

for anyone who's forgotten, from the Shelley's Ghost story, Peter Underwood, FRSA, is life president of that famous investigative organisation, the Ghost Club Society. Sorry, I love that they've specified that once he is a ghost,

he can no longer be president of Ghost Club. That seems almost hypocritical. It's the Ghost Club Society. Sorry, I love that they've specified that once he is a ghost, he can no longer be president of Ghost Club. That seems almost hypocritical. It's the Ghost Club. It's not a club for ghosts. It's a bridge club. It's not a club for bridges. It's extremely patronising, I think, for them to deign to speak for ghosts while also excluding ghosts, at least from the upper leadership.

We don't know about the membership. Maybe they know more about them than us, though. They know that a ghost than us, though. No. They know that a ghost is a rubbish leader. So, yeah, he's also a long-standing member of the Society for Psychical Research, president of the Unitarian Society for Psychical Studies, president of Anglia Paranormal Investigation Society,

patron of Paranormal Investigation, brackets Cornwall. He's a member of the Folklore Society, the Dracula Society, and former member of the Research Committee for Psychic Research Organisation. Anything else you want to know? I want to know what happened in the last one.

What did they do? A point a ghost and he just walked straight out? He's former honorary librarian of the London Savage Club and any correspondence please address it to 1 Whitehall Place London SW182HD so I think he's still alive in

answer to that question that we had before because this well this edition of the book because the book I had was a

very ratty paperback that I got at a mobile bookstore at a music festival whereas that looks pristine

it's slick this edition was first published in 98, and this reprint is 2015, and they haven't updated the About the Author page to presumably say he's no longer president. We can infer that he's still alive, or that they changed the rule. So this one is in Morwenstow,

specifically Stanbury Manor, and this just says that some years ago, strange happenings specifically Stanbury Manor. And this just says that some years ago, strange happenings at Stanbury Manor were reported directly to Peter Underwood by the occupant. I'm imagining like he's got a red phone.

Oh, the ghost phone's ringing. Sorry, excuse me. Spook telephone. Peter Underwood speaking. Yes, I'm still alive. So this was reported to him by the occupant mr t.a lee and it centered on this big chest made of cedar wood which is thought to be of spanish origin and maybe came over with the spanish armada there's no backup facts for that at all in the story the it carved on it on the lid and the four sides were representations of dismembered heads and headless bodies so it's a pretty grim this is a horrible box yeah clearly spanish well actually a quick aside the torture devices because

of because of the reputation of the spanish inququisition, there's loads of torture devices which are all called the Spanish this and that. Oh, yeah. And the idea being that they were Spanish, but most of the time they weren't. It was just a name people gave to them, like the way, you know, Morbin Kitchens have given themselves a German name, even though they're a British company. Like Haagen-Dazs is American. Haagen-Dazs is American.

In the 80s, Curry's, they registered loads, their own brand names sounded Japanese. So Matsui, you think that's a Japanese brand. It's like a Curry's own brand. Is it? Yeah. So the set made their tellies sound fancier. Well, it was the same with Spanish torture equipment,

or rather non-Spanish torture equipment. They would say, oh, this is the Spanish thumb whacker or something. And everyone would go, oh, no, Catholic torture, the worst kind. So maybe it was something to do with that, an association of Spaniards with cruelty. Apparently, the proprietor of the shop where this was purchased said there was, I quote, something queer about the chest. Wherever it'd been placed in the shop, things fell off the walls nearby. So Mr Lee put it in his armoury.

Smart man. He's a good man, Lee. Good man in a tough spot. Straight in the armoury. Yeah, I've got a thing that makes things fall off walls. Where should I put it? Near the wall-mounted guns? Yes.

And yeah, the very next morning, six guns fell off the wall as soon as he walked into the room no way and apparently the wires were not broken and the hooks were still intact and secure these guns leapt from the walls presumably thanks to this chest so they moved it into their bedroom and that very same evening now we've established that peterwood is alive in 2015, and he got told this story firsthand. And there's a photo of Mr. and Mrs. Lee with the chest, which we will put on the page because it's delightful. We've established that this must have been reasonably recent, right?

Yeah, yeah. Because the guy that it was told to is still alive. And so Mr. Lee moved the chest to his bedroom, and while he was hanging some curtains on his four-poster bed... Fancy. It's very Hammer Horror. Yeah, he's got an armoury and he's got a four-poster bed. That's a fancy man.

And he's got a blooming haunted chest as well. He's living the dream, this Mr T.A. Lee. But yeah, he was hanging the curtains on the four-poster bed, a picture fell down and struck him. Next day, three more pictures fell off the walls of the room containing the chest. And then this line, so he's explained that whole bit about the bed, the four-poster bed and the curtains and stuff like that. This next line needs a little bit more explanation to my mind.

So two days later, four more pictures came down in the drawing room where the chest had been moved, again, while the occupants were present. One of the pictures went backwards through some stout pine panelling into a secret passage. End of paragraph. Peter Underwood asked no more questions about the... Underwood could just drop a secret

passage into a story and then move on. Yeah, and then just next day another picture fell down. What about the passage? Yeah, what about the secret passage um i guess in this line of work a secret passage is you know nothing to write home about nothing to even write in great detail in your book yeah on the subject of mysteries about now this made the local press which dubbed it the case of the poltergeist chest which is as unimaginative a local headline as you could imagine. And you know how when the local paper come round to take a picture,

they get them to pose in a silly way. Usually just sort of standing in front of or next to the thing. Looking upset. Usually if a thing has upset them, like someone had a bad window, they'd stand in front of the window looking sad. Yeah. Mr. and Mrs. Lee, however, I'm going to show you this picture now. The caption for this picture is

Mr. and Mrs. Lee with a haunted Spanish chest. Don't worry, guys. They've got their guns. So he's holding a large rifle and she's holding a shotgun pointed at him. The photograph is in black and white, but also it looks to have been taken in the 50s. It looks like a still from a film from

the 1950s. Also the chest is way bigger than I was imagining it being. Easily, easily large enough to have two human bodies in it. It looks like they're in a bedroom and that is not a four poster bed. That's two posters at the max. This is incredible. And also he's got his foot on it like it's a big game

animal that he's hunted. Like, I got you. I got the chest. I've got several guns pointed at you right now. Just try it. T.A. Lee, of course, it stands for Territorial Army Lee. Yeah. He's pretty handy.

Guy's got guns. And so's his wife. It could be... It's a lady's shotgun, I think. Just a normal... A lady's shotgun. A normal snub-nosed lady's shotgun, yes. This got published in the newspaper,

and a former curate of Newland West recognised the published photograph. I can't have seen that before. That scene could never have happened before. From the magazine Guns and Chests and People. I'm guessing he... Now, he recognised the chest because many years ago they lived in his village, two ladies who owned this chest they're both elderly and very deaf and they used to communicate with little messages written down

on piece of paper and they were reclusives you know the sort i mean i'm painting a picture here they're they're kind of they they probably lived in a house that kids would run past or dare each other to knock on the door of sounds like possible secret historical lesbians to me. I always, you always wonder. Oh. You know, when it's in the past. Oh, they were, these two women. No, they just lived together and were friends for an extremely long time.

And they never married. Or did they? Well, that sounds delightful. So, yeah, they lived as recluses. Rarely seen in the village. And they collected a great deal of junk. They're hoarders. They're basically the subject of

Channel 5 documentaries hoarders and lesbians really popular deaf hoarders and lesbians they decided to put the objects up for sale and this curate went along he's probably looking to find

a little deal he found it very difficult to do business with these two women because they insisted that he communicate by writing down notes to them which seems reasonable because they were deaf they were yeah of course he should have

written them notes he spoke to other people in the village and he found that when oh oh sorry now it points out that they're sisters all right the likelihood of lesbianism has dropped massively i'll say that much um so they'd gone on a visit to some friends and had retired without unpacking their trench which they placed on a chest which was in the bedroom that had been allocated to them. And in the morning as they awoken, and again this is direct,

quote, their attention was immediately drawn to the chest for although weighed down by heavy trunks, the lid was opening. They saw it opening? With their trunks on top of it the spanish chest was opening and they looked inside and apparently what they saw was so horrible it struck them deaf so is this the two sisters yeah this is how they got deaf an origin story an

origin story i wasn't expecting it was in the trunk was so terrifying it made you deaf which is an odd sense to lose but it's still shocking so they were struck deaf and what in fact they would they'd saw seen in this chest they would never reveal presumably not even by a written down note that's pretty mysterious so they decided to just keep it forever it ended up for sale because mr and mrs bought it, tamed it. And yeah, as the sort of postscript for this story, Mr Lee told Peter Underwood that there were no further disturbances. The end.

So the chest stopped being scary. It stopped being spooky. Yeah. Right, another case closed. And then we see Peter Underwood on his typewriter as he chings along, pulls the piece of paper out, files it away. And then shoots it with a big old gun.

And now we're going to score. Okay. We're going to do that scoring bit. Okay, first up, naming. All right, what names have you got? You've got Peter Underwood, good name. Yeah, T.A. Lee. Territorial Army Lee.

Mrs. Lee. Mrs. Lee. It was the name of my math teacher at school, so that name's got a certain frisson for me. Mrs. Lee. Mrs. Lee. Who's the name of my maths teacher at school so that name's got a certain frisson for me. Er... Oh... And even the name of the story in the local paper was rather prosaic. The Case of the Poltergeist Chest. Yeah, so that's the name of your story, The Case of

the Poltergeist Chest. Should have gone with Polter Chest. Ottoman alive! But surely an Ottoman is by definition not from Spain. I wonder if the camera person suggested the guns or... If they were just holding the guns when they answered the door.

Yeah, probably. Hello, do you want to see the chest? Come in here. Don't mind the guns. They fell off the wall. Yes, they haven't moved them. I think if you were trying to take someone's photo and they were holding a gun, you're not going to really order them around. You're just going to take the photo and get the hell out of there as quick as possible and trying to avoid any confusion on the word shoot oh god it's gonna take a shot very exciting but unfortunately nothing to do with names no it's nothing to do with names so

i think it's a it's a two out of five for names. Just because they had names. Just because they did have names, yes. At least they were named. Supernatural. Oh, sorry, James. I didn't hear what you said because I was struck deaf by how supernatural this story was. This chest has the terrifying power to strike two sisters deaf and make pictures fall off walls. It's a solid five out of five, James. I'm not even going to haggle over this.

The fact that people actually saw the lid of the chest opening with their own eyes. And they reported that back for a medium of a note. Yes, that's remarkable. That didn't go on to say what was in the damn chest to make them so deaf. It's a good thing it didn't, James, to protect our hearing. Oh, yeah, that's a good point. Do you want to go deaf by having it described to you? Do you want to go deaf in one ear?

If you just read about it, would you just go deaf or would you just lose your sense of... Yes, you'd get tinnitus. Oh no. That's how people get tinnitus. It's an extreme five out of five. Brilliant. I'm bringing in Peter Underwood for this one and I'm asking for a score on presidencies.

Well, they seem almost excessive, don't they? He has for a score on presidencies. Well, they seem almost excessive, don't they? He has supernumerary presidencies. Yeah. How many is it? Oh, wait a minute. Oh, yeah, he's president for the Unitarian Society of Psychical Studies, president of Anglia Paranormal Investigation Society, patron

of the Paranormal Investigation... You don't get anything for a patron in this game. Damn. He used to be on the Research Committee of Psychic Research Organisation. We're on two presidencies so far, James. Don't mess yourself. He's the life president of that famous investigating organisation,

the Ghost Club Society. He's the life president of the Ghost Club. You're on three presidencies. And it says here, he must have heard more first-hand ghost stories than any other person alive. Implying that some ghosts might have heard more first hand ghost stories Than any other person alive Implying that some ghosts might have heard more Yeah

So that's three out of five James That's three presidencies which is a lot for one man He's the former honorary librarian Of the London Savage Club I nearly misread that as sausage I am unmoved I'm stony hearted He's the author of more than 50 books.

Three out of five. Sorry, Peter. Oh, Peter. My fourth and final category, guns. Guns. Guns. Bang, bang, bang. Shooty-shoot.

And also sometimes that... Oh, the assembling of guns. Yeah, I bet T.A. Lee, I bet he could do that blindfolded. Oh, definitely. It's like the gun would fall off the wall and dismantle, and he'd be like... Without even knowing what he'd done. Yeah, just a natural.

And his wife's probably in the other room doing a crossword, just three or four guns on the go, just swinging them, flipping them. Kicking them up in the air like a hacky sack, like a very dangerous hacky sack. It's a story that is very, very gunny. And yeah, not even mentioned in the description that they are packing. Mr and Mrs Lee

with a haunted Spanish chest. Guns model zone. Yeah, I... Well, if you go on a presidencies thing, I've got six guns, so I should at the very least get a full house of five out of five here's why you're not getting that oh it's it's the checkoff thing it's the the the guns don't pay off so there's a lot of payoffs people pay off the guns don't come back

into the story satisfactorily at the end because That's because Mr and Mrs T.A. Lee, they're actually quite responsible gun owners and their guns don't go off by accident. Yeah, because you're right. The Chekhov's rule said if there's a gun on the wall in the first act but the people are actually quite responsible gun owners, it's fine. You don't need to deal with it.

Just leave it on the wall. It's safe. Yeah. Just the weakness of that as a defence, I'm going to lower it to 3 out of 5 no, it's 4 it is 4, there's a lot of guns there's a lot of guns

it's 4 out of 5 that's 2 stories of Peter Underwood involved with guns I think he might have joined a gun club or a ghost gun club no, too many ghosts get made that way. You've been listening to Lawmen. The Lawmen are James Shakeshaft and Alistair Beckett-King.

Please subscribe, rate, review and recommend to a friend. You can tweet us at LawmenPod, or email us at contact at lawmenpodcast.com to suggest stories from your area. Otter Man alive! No? Yeah, that's good. It's alright.

I thought it was like a man. An otter man. An otter man, like an aquatic superhero. With all the powers of an otter. Yeah. Being really cute in videos. And then the burglars are like, Oh, look at him there, he's adorable.

They're holding hands.