Loremen Podcast - S3 Ep29: Loremen S3 Ep29 - Rollright Stones LIVE

Episode Date: July 16, 2020

The 50th episode sees the Lorefolks tackle the Rollright Stones in a special livestream edition! The past and the future collide, as predicted by the film Stargate and to a lesser extent the TV series of the same name. Discover standing stones, a witch's curse and the dreaded Dix Pit. You can also watch the full livestream here: www.loremenpodcast.com/episode-29-s3   Thanks to all our loyal listeners, here's to 50 more! (50 more episodes, not 50 more listeners. We'd settle for 25.) Bonus Content: James attempting to make a Serial-esque podcast phenomenon out of the Snuffling Beast of Lidstone. It lasts ten minutes, but bless 'im, he tried. Mooie Warning: They're back.  ko-fi.com/loremen @loremenpod www.twitch.tv/loremenpod www.instagram.com/loremenpod www.facebook.com/loremenpod @JamesShakeshaft | @MisterABK

Welcome to Lawmen, a podcast about local legends and obscure curiosities from days of yore. I'm James Shakeshaft. And I'm Alistair Beckett-King. And what we've got for you this time is the 50th episode, which we celebrated with a very special live stream. A live stream is like a podcast, but it happens in the present, which by now is the past. Yes, this is a recording of a live stream, so this is just a podcast, which is slightly more shambolic than normal. So if it sounds like we keep referring to the fact that we're doing a live stream,

it's because we were doing a live stream. Yeah, get on board. Work it out granddad i'm quite nervous yeah i've had fizzy arms all afternoon which is my sort of tell for i've got a gig because i haven't had a gig since probably about almost a year have we got 30 people watching i've seen 39 what's going on there that's i was saying we'd be looking at edinburgh preview numbers but we're looking at nice edinburgh preview numbers oh wilson deluxe is in we've got someone from chest of the street hey that's the

guy chest of the street guy philip squidman ah philip squidman who's philip squidman i don't know i hope they can't hear us pretty certain they can't hear should i play the music and Hello. Hiya. Hello, James. How are you? I'm good, Alistair. How are you? I'm all right. This is a bit weird, isn't it? In my fake library and your actual shed. Boxes and a fan I can see there and some WD-40. Yeah, there's some old tiles. Oh, nice. Windows Sabara always thought you were joking about recording in a shed. Now it's a real shed. It's a real shed with a real zombie baby. And I realised the other night I was sitting out

when it was nice weather and I heard something trudging through the undergrowth on the other side of the wall near where the little gravestone is. Listeners to the podcast will know that that is one of the most frightening places near where the little gravestone is listeners the podcast will know that that is one of the most frightening places near where you live yeah and it is known to be spooky it's about two meters that way the magic of live streaming is that you can literally point in the direction of the thing you're talking about yeah through a wall this is the future

whoa whoa wilson deluxe has brought up the Mooies with absolutely no Mooie warning. Please don't. The last thing we want is a Mooie incident coming down not just on us, but on everybody in the chat stream. Yeah. Thank you.

Wilson says they will be more careful. Thanks, Wilson. Thank you. I also, I'm glad we got the Wilson Deluxe rather than the basic model. Yes. Because it is better. You do appreciate the... I don't want to be a naysayer, but I'm not sure there's that much of a difference apart from in price.

Hello, the people. How are you, the people? It's very nice to have you here. It's exciting. I think we should refer to them as in this being a folklore podcast we should they're folk really that is the law folk welcome hiya folks that works actually yeah and also it makes you sound like a cool vicar yes not for the first time like a drama teacher hi folks a drama teacher that moonlights as a vicar possibly hey maybe we should do some improvised scenes around new testament stories maybe we could do that you know how around New Testament stories. Maybe we could do that, you know? How do you turn a pulpit round and sit on it backwards, though? I'm recognising names of people that have emailed us.

We've got a man from Chester the Street. I saw Chester the Street in the chat. Yes. A.K.A. Chester the Street, A.K.A. Chester Lee Street. Chester Lee Street. One of the finest streets in the northeast of England. You should... Have you ever been to the town of Chester Lee Street. Chester Lee Street. One of the finest streets in the north-east of England. Have you ever been to the town of Chester?

Yes, I've often been to Chester. Is it like the street, but bigger? It's like Wilson Deluxe. As Wilson Deluxe is to Wilson, so Chester is to... I don't know. I don't know what I'm saying. Has Chester got a shop called Amy's Winehouse? Oh. Presumably that's a Chester Leele-Street establishment,

but I've got to put that with the Jimmel Mixit concrete mixing company in terms of business names that you later come to regret. Oh, yeah. Wowzers. There's a lot of people in the region of Chester-le-Street. That explains the unusual stats we get on the podcast, where half the listeners are from America

and the other half of them are specifically from Chester-le-Street. Now it makes sense. Oh, I feel bad we're not doing a Northeastern tale today. Shall I unveil the tale? Yeah. Today we're going to be talking about the Rollwright Stones. Nice name. It's a great name.

Got a little picture of them here. That's the main circle, the King's Men, Got a little picture of them here. That's the main circle, the King's Men, which is just under 100 stones in a circle about the same size as Stonehenge. Really? And then about a quarter of a mile east of that is four stones called the Whispering Knights. That is a good name.

And then just across the road in the other direction is a single standing stone called the King's Stone. And around there, there's also various other things like long barrows and old Iron Age farm and a Saxon burial ground over there. Do you think that they planned to have three different stones around the place, or do you reckon they planned to have them all in one place and lost commitment to the bit? Because after you've done 100 stones, you're like,

maybe these ones are just here. Should we just leave these? These can be just some knights. And that one over there can just be because it's big. Make a thing of it. We'll give them all different names so it's like a thing. Yeah, that's the plan. plan well they've actually dated them um by which i mean presumably carbon dated rather than you know taking them for a drink taking them down to the bistro to amy's winehouse or

it's not because it'd be chippy it would be you would probably take someone to taste of the country or annie's countryantry if you were doing it in the 80s. Annie's Country Pantry? Yeah, that was the place to go. It sounds like something that if you say it too many times fast it becomes rude. Yeah, it's got some spice to it, which is ironic because it served the blandest food.

But they are actually from different times. The Whispering Knights are the oldest. but they are actually from different times. The Whispering Knights are the oldest. They're reckoned to be from between 3800 and 3500 BC. 3000 BC? 3800 BC. I wasn't appreciating how old they were. That is, according to the Hebrew calendar,

that's from before Adam and Eve. The Hebrew calendar starts in 3760 BC, or they probably don't call it bc though i imagine and that's the year before adam and eve wow so the year before adam and eve there were potentially already 200 years there wow yeah that is old that is old older than time the main circle is from about 2500 BC yeah which is that well the pyramid of Giza was finished in 2560 BC all right now you impressed me with the last one but let's not try and put it up against the pyramids of Giza James I mean look I'm gonna bring the picture back up

this is a mid-17th century drawing of it they're good they're not the pyramids they haven't even thought of putting one stone on top of another stone. It was either they couldn't be bothered or they made a design choice. Oh, it was a design choice to just leave them sticking in the ground.

Yes. And not all in the same place. Yes. Like how I put my dirty socks on the floor rather than in the wash bin. It's a design choice. By the way, 2500 BC, that's older than beekeeping.

That's older than the domestication of the bee. Yeah. Because up until that point, they were rogue. They were the equivalent of... Wild bees. As wolves are to dogs. Yes.

So old bees were to current bees. Nine times the size. They howled. They'd chase you down, spray honey in your eyes. And you'd get were-bees. if you were stung by a bee whenever you tasted honey i don't know of course that's that's geordie for our bees doesn't really work doesn't really work there's too many geordies in the chat i'm not going to get away with that oh the kingstone is the youngest he's from 1500 ish bc which is the time of tutankhamun or tutankhamun

some people have pointed out that the stones are quite a lot bigger than the horses in this picture maybe that's because horses were smaller in them days yeah we don't realize is that's a child sitting on a dog in the foreground um so yes the royal white stones the legend that is the boring bit about how old they actually are tried to spice it up with bees as i do most things in my life yeah i really appreciated the bees thank you but the story that's told for how these stones came to be there is i'm going to get my special book one of my favorites folklore of the cotswolds by Catherine M Briggs. So way back when, back in the past, there was an army with a leader, a king, who in some reports is a giant, and he wanted to take over the whole of England. And he got to around the area of Little Rollwright. And he was going over a hill, and then a witch came in front of him,

and she said, seven long strides thou shalt take, and if Longcompton thou can see, King of England thou shalt be. And he was like, brilliant. And in every single report, it says that he shouted this. He shouted,

stick, stock, stone, as King of England I shall be known. And he took seven long strides. And as he took a seven stride, a hill rose up out of the ground and blocked his view of Long Compton. That's really good. Just like Macbeth, but with special effects. Yeah. And then the witch said,

As Long Compton thou canst not see, King of England thou shalt not be. Rise up, stick, and stand still, stone, for King of England thou shalt be none. Thou and thy men whore-stones shall be, and I myself an elden tree. Oh, nice. The king turned into stone,

his circle of men just behind him turned into stone, and then a quarter of a mile down the way some knights who were whispering and conspiring against the king oh i see were also turned into stone how did anybody find out that they were conspiring if they turned to stone if everybody there turned to stone and the only person who didn't turn to stone became a tree well because they don't actually always remain stone you've genuinely surprised me there i didn't see that coming four things that turn into stone as some sort of curse they seem to get quite a lot of time off apparently the whispering knights go down to little roll right

spinny either on holy days or every single night at midnight to drink from the river oh the spinny the spinning is a river spinny is a word for like stream ah right thing right and at midnight to drink from the river oh the spinny the spinning is a river spinny is a word for like stream ah right thing right and at midnight every day the king's men dance in the air yeah yeah and oh what happened once a load of people surrounded the kingstone and someone went over to the tree that was the witch the elder tree and cut it with a knife and it bled blood oh oh i like a good tree that bleeds blood and the king's headstone moved what's that that's a great story more stuff the whispering knights apparently they will tell you the future if you listen very carefully yeah women would go and listen to them and they'd whisper the name of their future husbands and they'd be like the brexit referendum will be at leave.

Yes, put some money on it. But then it turns out it was just a UKIPer standing behind the stone because it is Chipping Norton, let's be realistic. Oh, they're crazy shit. It's not a very remain area. It was because it was Cameron's place. Oh, sorry, yeah. Who, by the way, a lot of people say, when I say Chipping Norton, they say David Cameron lives in Chipping Norton.

He does not live in Chippendalton. I want to put this to bed now. He lives in Dean, which is where the tip is. Dean Tip, which mysteriously shut down just after he became Prime Minister. Coincidence? But upside is, the tip now that people have to go to is a pit, and it's run by the Dix family,-i-x and it's called dicks pit so the tip is a pit and it's run by the family of dicks run by the family dicks

which is our awful version of the family ness the late night version the horrible horrible kids show those aren't bagpipes mate you you want a fizzle whistle i don't know what that means i i'm guessing that's to call attention and hopefully get rescued leave her out of one one podcast we normally we get to cut this um the kingstone is meant to be lucky if you take a little chip of it it's seen as good luck or it's a fertility charm. Nice. And fairies dance around it. Fine, yeah. Just on the regs. The Whispering Knights, a farmer once wanted to make a bridge over that spinny,

so he decided to take one of the stones from the Whispering Knights. Oh, they're not going to like that. Based on what I know about them, they're going to be really cuttingly sarcastic about that in a sort of low-key kind of way. Definitely out of earshot. Oh yeah, try and make a bridge out of me. Fantastic. See what that farmer's doing now. And so it took him, apparently it took four

horses to drag this stone down the hill to the spinny and two people died. What? I don't know how. It just says two people died during it. That's incredible. I mean, that's like how many, that's like, it's not the Channel Tunnel. How many people died trying to cross this stream? So, yeah, four horses, two deaths, and he put the stone over the river,

and then every day he would come back to it, and the stone would be just like overturned and no longer useful as a bridge. And he'd drag it back into place. Hopefully no one died during that. And then every morning come back out of place again and so he just gave up and it took one horse to pull it up into position and no one died that's interesting because you'd think it would be harder to pull a stone uphill exactly than downhill exactly i'm no carl sagan no i'm no Bill Nye the Science Guy. What?

But I'm not. I'm not even wearing a bow tie. I'm sorry, folk. You're witnessing the end of this podcast. I've been lied to. A couple of points from the chat. Slug me up, Geoffrey, is saying,

once we tried to go to the Roll Right Stones, but Dad didn't realise how far it was, so we all got back out of the car, and that was that. Which is quite a tale. Someone's asking, maybe the reason it took so long to pull down the hill

is he was using one of the really small horses from the picture. Oh, yes. Very good point. Just the little pug horses with a doll on them. Yeah. That means there might have been two children dying.

So that's actually quite sad now. It's actually got quite sad now. It was just two normal people dying two full-sized people that's the thing with our podcast though you never know it could be some light-hearted whimsy could be some pun-based banter it could be the death of a child the cruel and untimely death of a child i think that's why people listen just to see is a kid gonna die in this one yeah you notice i've been deliberately vague about how many stones there are in the King's Men. Yeah.

That's because you can't count them. What? Well, you can count them, but if you can't get the same number three times in a row, there's around 70 odd. There's around 70. The official number is 73, but the legend says that you can't count them three times. If you manage to count them three times if you manage to count them three times in a row and get the same number then you either get all your wishes come true

or something quite bad will happen like the witch will come back and get you the range of outcomes there is a little too wide for me to bank on that yeah but you know it's exciting oh thrilling certainly the most fun you can have counting, you know, it's exciting. Oh, thrilling. Certainly the most fun you can have counting approximately 73 stones, yeah. It's the most fun you can have in Chipping Norton or the Chipping Norton area. Definitely. I sort of think it's a bit like a medieval

or prehistoric version of Deal or No Deal. Mm, Wilson Deluxe has said it's like Roll Right Roulette. Oh, that's nice. Oh, and once a baker tried, he wanted to win deal or no deal. And he baked a load of bread and he put a loaf on each stone so that he thought that, you know, he'd get all the way round and he'd see which one. Because the thing is, you don't know which ones you've counted

because some are sort of sticking out of the ground. You can't quite tell if that's the same stone. And as we know from Hansel and Gretel, the only reasonable way to count something is using the medium of bread. Yeah, yeah. Bread is sort of like... It's literally the only way you could have done it.

Yeah, it's... Bakes up to 80 loaves of bread. It's the past's blockchain. And yeah, when he got back round, some of the bread had been magicked away and he got in his car and rode off at top speed. Magicked away. A couple of Shetland ponies chowing down on a bap.

Fighting over a baguette. Those are the legends. Those are the stories. And recently, someone that I read in the Chippy News, the Chipping Norton News, a wonderful publication, that, I say recently, this was genuinely probably about 10 or 15 years ago, vandals had daubed paint on the stones, and people going, why had they done it?

And it's clearly, they were trying to count it. Yeah, trying to count it, yeah. Yeah, so that's the legends. That's wonderful. Thank you for that story, James. No worries. I'm sure I've left loads out. So I thought I would tell you some some stone

stories from the very opposite end of the british isles and find out a few things about stones in appin and argyle are you up for that oh yeah little tiny little um pebbles yeah definitely very small stones pebbles yeah some gravel argyle is where my mum is from uh appin argyle and there aren't many standing stones there but what there are is loads of, I think they're called glacial erratics, which I really like because it sounds like a pretentious album title, like glacial erratic. You know when you're in a field and there's just a big round stone in the middle of nowhere and everything else is just hill and grass?

How did it get there? It's just been dropped by a glacier. And allegedly there is one which which rings if you hit it and i spent a good portion of my childhood searching around trying to find that one and never did who told you that this stone oh yeah my mum my mum told me okay that she has she'd heard it ringing so that's a that's a reliable source yeah i think it's like when i'd try and get mine to find something that I know where it is, and it's not where they tend to look for things.

Just so I can have a little sit down. In the farm where my mum grew up, there was a big erratic, and my grandad had painted a picture of a sheep onto it. It's sort of a life-size portrait of a sheep. And what I like about that is a little bit of the Scottish sense of humour, because the field that it was in was full of sheep. There's plenty of sheep around but one of them was a drawing of a sheep and I don't know if it's ever happened but I visualise him accosting English tourists as they walk

through just going like, oh you see that, you see that sheep? No you don't. It's no real. There's a sheep over there. No, it's not. You reckon? Okay. Yeah, like a wily coyote. Go touch it. Go get a stroke. Oh, he's flat.

You can't see him from that side, but here he is. What's going on? It's like that story you hear about a thing that happened on a lad's holiday where one of those, you know, you get those spherical bollards sometimes in like sort in beach places, and they're made out of cement, but someone's painted it to look like a football, and then a drunken lad wanders up and breaks his foot. Oh, I was imagining a bigger one and thinking it was a space hopper.

Oh, that's a lot more fun. Trying to hop on a cement space hopper. But just kicking like a medicine ball that would be awful those kind of stones they appear in the the only novel that is associated with the area which is robert louis stevenson's kidnapped uh i don't think you pronounced the exclamation mark sorry yeah it's got an exclamation mark it's kidnapped a bit more broadway is that all right with you a bit more worse thank you uh so in robert louis stevenson's kidnapped there's a bit more worst end. That's better, thank you. So in Robert Louis Stevenson's Kidnapped, there's a bit where they're being chased by the fuzz and they have to hide on top of a big, big, big rock,

which has a hollow in the middle of it. So they hide in the big rock while all the soldiers search around and they stay there for, I think, a whole day. And they nearly die because of the blazing sun, making it the least realistic episode in that fairly accurate historical novel. But the last thing I found about stones in that area is very small white stones are believed

to be associated with death. White pebbles have been found on graves. So when fishermen were getting ballast, big sacks of ballast for their ships, they would separate out all of the white stones. They would never take a white stone with them. That sounds laborious. I know. Yeah, it's like the M&Ms for a band.

Ozzy Osbourne wouldn't go on stage unless he had a brandy glass full of brown M&Ms. Yeah, exactly. So I guess the fishermen were just pretentious rockers insisting on not having white stones. Didn't one of those fishermen bite a bat's head off? That was good luck, though, at that time. That's nice.

Just a little pebble dash there of Scottish stones. Yeah. Shall we scores? Yes, let's do some scores. What categories have you got for me? Let's get it out of the way. Naming. I like Roll Right.

Yeah. But do they roll right? Because if anything, the story told us that moving them was quite difficult. They rolled wrong because they wouldn't roll down a hill. But yeah. So it's a cool name, but quite misleading in some ways. It is. I always feel that the town of Little Roll Right sounds like a passive aggressive waiter fat shaming you.

Little Roll Right. The King's Men. Everything sounds like a pub-aggressive waiter fat-shaming you. Little role, right? The King's Men. Everything sounds like a pub where you're from. The Whispering Knights. Yes, that's a good pub name. Which sounds like a Mills and Boone novel. They whispered of love and betrayal. The King's Stone, a witch who turned into a tree who remains nameless.

Oh, no, some people think it's a Mother Shipton. Oh, yeah? You said it's a member of the Mother Shipton franchise. Yeah people think it's a Mother Shipton. Oh yeah? Because... You said it's a member of the Mother Shipson franchise? Yeah, one of the Mothers Shipton. The famous one is from Leeds. There's a famous witch called Mother Shipton from Leeds. And there was a similarly named one

who was actually from Shipton. And I think they both predicted the world would end in 1881. Oh, idiots. And there was a great big storm that year and a lot of people died so it might have been a bit scary so there's names there's the uh as lachnitz has said the asmr knights they're quite cool uh i like them that is a better name than the whispering knights uh i think it's i think it's a two yeah it's a two out of five yeah there's nothing there is nothing Even the one name that I found was the same name as a more famous person.

Okay, then. So, second up, Supernatural. Mm-hmm. Supernatural. Well, I didn't appreciate the mm-hmm noise that you made. What have we got? Transmogrification. Metamorphosis.

What's the word for turning into stone? Ossification. Fairly supernatural, I think. Turning to stone is a classic. Sure. I don't think we've had many stories where people turn to stone. Yeah. metamorphosis what's the word for turning into stone ossification fairly supernatural i think turning to stone is a classic sure i don't think we've had many stories where people turn to stone yeah and in this case up to 79 people have turned to stone yeah there's i think there's four of them one of them 78 i think would be circa 78 yeah stone turnings that I mean, that knocks Medusa into a cocked hat. That's fantastic. Big time.

That's very supernatural. You've got a witch. I didn't even remember the terraforming. No, yes. Yep, yep, yep. A hill out of nowhere. I beg your pardon. Snarky Bartfast, living up to the snark in the name,

has pointed out that ossification is turning to bone and is suggesting that petrification is the word I wanted. Isn't it turning into Ozzyzy osbourne like like them sailors there's there's the fairies that dance around the kingstone you've got the stones just dancing in the air yeah they rise up into the air and dance coming to life inconveniencing a bridge builder yes a witch that turns into a tree for no real reason yeah turning into a tree imagine ending a zinger with and i'll turns into a tree for no real reason yeah turning into a tree imagine ending a zinger with and i'll turn into a tree and then turning into a tree what a mic drop uh the king's men and the king may come back to life will come back to life and take over the

country oh sometime yeah don't know when right i mean bearing in mind that the people who said this thought the world was going to end 100 years ago yeah there's really a lot of vagueness around that yeah happening yeah still it's five out of five yes there's nothing i can i can't argue it's unarguably very supernatural it is an extremely supernatural story uh arthurians to poke a door points out it is that they will come back to life in the hour of england's greatest need just like king arthurians to poke a door points out it is that they will come back to life in the hour of england's greatest need just like king arthur oh i that you put that in it that does the aegis will come back to life and take over the country at some point they might come back and be like

nah well let's go back to stone a bit i will give it a minute yeah well that's perhaps feeding into my next category which is passive aggression passive aggression break that down for me so there's quite a lot of passive aggression in there in this story you've got if if this idea that they will come back to life at some point but they do come back to life every night and go yeah not for us it's a snub certainly it's a little bit judgy you've got the the witch is weird sort of turning herself into a tree out of spite seems to be quite passively aggressive and i bet i don't know it isn't featured in the rhyme i bet when the when the hill rose up out the ground she'd be like oh didn't you see the hill there i thought you should probably have taken that into account before you agreed to my deal.

And the Whispering Knights, the most passive-aggressive of all the megaliths. I suppose it's four points, James, if that makes you happy for passive aggression. If you feel like that's okay, then I guess I'm going to give you four points. Yeah, I'll take that. I'm happy with that, if that's the way you want it to be. Fine. It's four points. Good. i'll take that i'm not happy i'm happy with that if that's the way you want it to be fine it's four points good that is one per whispering night and what could

be more passive aggressive than a stone that kills two people that's the other album passive aggressive glacial erratic oh yeah they're double albums as well from the days of CDs. Oh, I loved that. Same price, two CDs. I know. I was all about the value for money, which is why I bought Wu-Tang Forever rather than 36 Chambers. If I understand correctly, Wu-Tang Forever lasts until the end of time.

Yes, 36 Chambers is the best. So my final category is unknowability. Okay. I don't think that's a word. What is unknown in this story? How many stones are there? Don't know. Just get me some bread.

I'll count them. It's easy. Also, that's a lot of loaves. And bakers can't be trusted because bakers think... Even for a baker. A dozen is 13. He's the last person who should have been counting is a baker you want to get someone in a job where numbers mean something like an accountant yes get a bean counter out there with his beans and put one bean on top of the thing

no count them using something that's not edible that's what i that's my advice to the people something that isn't edible and won't roll off. That's a noble. The purpose of the stones built in prehistoric times, that is genuinely pretty mysterious. What were they whispering about? We'll never know. I don't even know how we know that they were whispering. So that is... What was the witch's problem?

I don't know, yeah. What was her horse in that race? Very small, presumably. Sorry, that small dog. More of a greyhound for her, I think. All right, in the category of unknowability, I'm going to write your score on this piece of paper, and I'm never going to show you it, James. The score for unknowability will remain a secret forever. You have been listening to Lawmen,

with me, Alistair Beckett-King. And me, James Shakeshaft. If you enjoyed the podcast, you can buy us a coffee. That's ko-fi.com forward slash l-o-r-e-n-e-n. And James, you've done a little mini investigation, haven't you? I have, yes. Into what, James? The Snuffling Beast of Lidstone, of course.

People have been... Person has been banging on at me about what the Snuffling Beast is. So I really got to the bottom of it and I interviewed the witnesses. Check it out. It's after the music finishes. Stay tuned or simply don't press stop. It's the 50th episode of Lorman. It's the 50th episode and I started to put the beast to bed. Finally get to the bottom of the snuffling beast of Lidstone.

I managed to get in contact with the Harding brothers and I kind of knew things were going to be difficult from the outset. One, two, three. Looks really fun on video because it's so out of sync, but actually we all did that at the same time somehow. Oh, really? Jim was well out of sync. That's live. But me and you were in sync.

I felt I was late to clap. I think you were actually a little bit late as well, because normally you two should have been at the same time. Anyway, hello, the Hardings. Hello. Welcome to Lawmen. Would you like to introduce yourselves? Jim, do you want to go first?

My name is Jim Harding, and I'm originally from the Lidstone area. My name is Dan Harding and I too originated in Lidstone, the general area. You're brothers? We're brothers. So that all checks out really. You two experienced the creature that we all call the Snuffling Beast of Lidstone? The Snuffling Beast, yeah. We believe so. It was on a back road, a famous back road, between Lidstone and the Chippy to Charbury Road. So let's paint a picture. What time of day was this?

All night, night time. It was night time. 10 or 11pm. Yeah, at least. Yeah yeah a little bit later have you got an idea of what year it was was i i presume it was early 2000s but i i think i was still at school probably so it might have been 97 or 8 i think it was later than that i think it was 2001 2002 old enough to know better memories diverging even at this early stage so do you remember what time what time of the year was it was it winter summer i'm going for late autumn but i've got no idea it must

have been fairly it must be fairly warm because we were standing outside the car we'd chosen to get out i think there was a reason for that before we get into the reason why you um where had you been before had you been before? Had you been... Probably down Chippy. Could have been down the Chequers or something. I think the person we haven't mentioned so far was giving us a lift home, probably. Ian was driving that night.

I checked in with him, and he confirms most of Jim's side of the story. It was the early 2000s. It was probably wintertime. They had been at the pub. and then the euphemisms began i think it was agreed we should get some fresh air oh yeah and we decided to stop i guess maybe partake in something just to kind of take the edge off the night right and we thought that would be a good spot it's uh slightly secluded you can definitely get off the road you're keeping yourself to yourself you're not bothering anyone we thought it was safe that was key

what are we talking dogging well you could call it a bane stuff okay we're talking sweet mary jane we're talking doobie we're talking what uh the devil's curly kale wacky tobacco zoot spliff sticks or just wheat we're talking about you you stopped off to have a little toke on some weed bobby bane hello and so what happened so you got out the car it's the paraphernalia was paraphernalia and how long was it before the incident i i'm hazy hazy on that detail i yeah unsurprisingly five or seven minutes mid mid bane what do you hear or see or smell i think very little was seen. I'm not sure if I'm the only one who actually heard it, but I certainly heard a rustling, some distinct movement.

What felt like was being caused by quite a large creature. There's definitely a sensation of movement. And snuffling. And snuffling. How do you mean snuffling? Can you demonstrate that? movement and snuffling and snuffler what how do you mean snuffler can you demonstrate that can you repeat that you know the direction of sound you could hear it was coming from from a ways off but

but coming closer certainly certainly coming closer that was the um, the moment of panic. It was almost pitch black as well. So you couldn't really see much, but you could just feel, sense movement, a kind of, yeah, a change in the... Atmosphere. Yeah, the atmosphere, what was happening. I remember Dan shrieking, maybe jumping into Ian's arms. Like in a Tom and Jerry cartoon.

Kind of like, kind of clutching at him in terror, sort of maybe trying to climb up him or get behind him, fearing his own life anyway. Like a racist image in a Tom and Jerry cartoon. Something like that, yeah. What noise did you hear, Jim? Like a little gargled feminine shriek. Can you...

Or from the beast, do you mean? Either. Well... Oh, that's not so bad. Something like that. Something like that. And was that the first you heard? Or had you heard the snuffling as well?

I was kind of aware of some snuffling, but I was like, oh, what's that? I think maybe I was closest to the snuffling, possibly. I remember feeling quite exposed. Right. And I remember snuffling came from the right, so from the field coming towards the car. Right. And what happened?

You never saw anything? No. Did the snuffling sort of fade away? Was that the end of it? I seem to remember after the commotion I caused, then you kind of turn back and say, well, what is it? And there's nothing there then. Right.

And then all kinds of things play on your mind. Did you imagine it? Did we scare scare it off i don't think so i mean it had we been absolutely silent and walked slowly towards it we probably would have uh well we might be famous or dead so that's the story but i needed to speak to an expert someone who knew about alien big cats abcs that guy was a comedian friend of mine, Tom Holmes. Just Tom Holmes, just regular Tom Holmes, really, nowadays. Just standard man Tom Holmes. I've called you up about this because you're my go-to guy for ABCs.

Yeah, any time there's a big cat sighting, I find I get a lot of tweets and stuff. And people, like like relatives will text me and I'll get emails from people going, you seen this? Yeah. And nowadays, I mean, there's quite a lot. Very regular. Do you think it's increased under lockdown?

Do you think they might have got cockier? Do you know what? There has been quite a few. There's been quite a few in the last uh june i think there was quite a lot um yeah the weather probably the weather could be weather although and maybe people are just getting bored as well they're thinking and maybe it is that kind of lockdown um cabin fever thing i've just seen a big cat um i don't know yeah a couple of weeks ago one in the cotswolds and one in surrey

um within the same week so you're saying they've got one's got an access to helicopters um i would say it's almost certain that they're probably using some kind of uh yeah uh flying device in 2003 i was stopped by the police and asked if I'd seen a puma in town, in Chipping Norton. Yeah. Oh, okay, that's interesting, yeah. So as a young lad. Because near Chipping Norton is the winter,

or it's the old winter quarters for the Chipperfield Circus. Okay. So it used to be where they'd keep their animals out of season. Right, okay. And now it's a thing called amazing animals and you can like book experiences there they've definitely they definitely have lions tigers they have they say they've got a liger really oh wow yeah well maybe they do if they've got lions and tigers mate all you need is a candle and some romantic music and you got yourself a liger shortly after

well the specifics of this this case um that the harding saw was the thing that they really focused in on was the snuffling yeah it was it was a snuffling beast is there are there many reports of the noises that they make yeah i remember seeing the documentary years and years ago i haven't looked at i haven't tried to look it up on youtube but um yeah there was a lot of talk there was this one woman who was convinced they were in a garden and she lived in dorset or somewhere like that and she used to hear snuffling a lot and that was what she said as well snuffling and i think her neighbor's going it's it's badgers but then she was convinced she she saw her but she was like i just know they are i know they're big cats um but yeah it was it wasn't the best documentary ever um there was there was a heavily

dramatized there was a heavily dramatized piece where there was this bloke who used to go out on a quad bike with a like a six shooter and he was like i'm gonna i'm gonna cut and then they did this bit that whether it was like a reconstruction and it was one of the worst things i've ever seen it was like a joke um but uh but yeah yeah if you can find that somewhere i can't remember what it's called but it's the sort of thing i've been interested in for so long i've seen so much stuff it's just incredibly annoying that there's never anything that's that's quite cast iron enough you know um but then you know if we were living in the you know if we we cared about this in the 80s they literally caught cats then so what's to say they're not there now but yeah

the the snuffling certainly is um yeah i do remember her saying oh he's just oh you snuffling in my cabbage patch or something like that oh really which isn't a euphemism or anything like that oh thanks very much tom Thank you for your expertise. Yeah, no worries at all, mate. No worries at all. I'd like to have you on for a proper episode. Yeah, that would be lovely. That would be lovely, yeah.

I've written down a Native American proverb as well. I think I got it from a fridge magnet. Will you share it with us? No, it's something, I'm paraphrasing, but it's something along the lines of if you see a wolf in the wild that wolf has seen you a hundred times meaning you know um different animal obviously different animal but same premise that you know that that wolf is has been watching you for a long time and you've only just caught it the once you know they move around very very quietly they don't want to be seen and as a result you know you don't know that they're right there next to you so there you have it

we've seen the beast once it's seen us countless times will it ever let us see it again will it just snuffle on Nuff along.