Loremen Podcast - S4 Ep16: Loremen S4 Ep16 - The River Ribble

Episode Date: October 6, 2022

This week the Loreboys are armed with reviews! Not for themselves, but for Lancashire / Yorkshire's glorious River Ribble. Some folks say it was David Bowie's favourite river. (It's us, we say that.) But do make sure you appease the ghost of Peg O' Nell - or a one star review will be the least of your worries... Loreboys nether say die! Check the sweet, sweet merch here... https://www.teepublic.com/stores/loremen-podcast?ref_id=24631 Support the Loremen here (and get stuff): patreon.com/loremenpod ko-fi.com/loremen @loremenpod www.youtube.com/loremenpodcast

Shop with Rakuten and you'll get it. What's it? It's the best deal, the highest cash back, the most savings on your shopping. So join Rakuten and start getting cash back at Sephora, Old Navy, Expedia, and other stores you love. You can even stack sales on top of cash back. Just start your shopping with Rakuten to save money at over 750 stores. Join for free at rakuten.ca or get the Rakuten app. That's R-A-K-U-T-E-N. Welcome to Lawmen, a podcast about local legends and obscure curiosities from days of yore. I'm James Shakeshaft. And I'm Alistair Beckett-King.

And Alistair Beckett-King. Yes, James Shakeshaft. We've got a real story today. A real story. A real story? Yeah. You know what this episode contains? Lots of reviews.

In a way, Google reviews are the modern captain thicknesses of the now oh captain thickness you would have loved google reviews anyway let's find out what on earth all that has to do with the actual episode and what is the episode about the river rebel alistair james i've got a tale for you because of course it's october the spookiest month yes and i've got a book that is my inspiration for the Tales from October. It's called Haunted England by Christina Hole. I believe the K-Hole has appeared on the podcast before. Is that right? It's the C-Hole.

It's even worse. I'm sorry. But the thing is, Elaine, you know when you get like a mind worm? For example, when I'm watching the football and they say of a tackle it was well in, I always finish off Garden City. Whenever they say that. Yes, yes, yes.

Whenever I see the cover of Haunted England by Christina Hull. Oh no! Sorry, I've just worked out how you're reading that. Christ in a hole. I can't not see it. I had worked it out, but I still enjoyed hearing it. Christ in a hole. Christ in a hole.

He was a good man to have in a hole, Christ. He'd be rolling the stone to a side, no bother. He was handy in a hole. You put him in a hole, he'd be back out of it in three days. Yeah, yeah. Christ in a hole. But in that book, she talks about the ghost of the River Ribble. River Ribble, his bank is a mess.

And it is the ghost of Peg O'Neill. Now, I'd like to give you some River Ribble facts. Straight up, River Ribble facts. And for people who are joining the podcast, this is David Bowie, played by the actor harry h corbett as he would have wanted both of them would have wanted so the river ribble river it begins as a confluence of three little rivers or streams thorn gill gail beck and my favorite batty wife beck the original sugar babes lineup exactly and they that begins in the shadow of the yorkshire three peaks

looking this up on wikipedia when you search for river ribble you know it does the you know not to be confused with bit at the top disambiguation yes it helpfully points out it's not to be confused with the river ribble what thanks wik's not to be confused with the River Ribble. What? Thanks, Wikipedia. There's another river called the River Ribble. There's a double ribble? Double ribble, yeah, which is a foul in basketball.

But no, the River Ribble I'm talking about, it's unique because it, well, it's not quite unique. It's in a very small amount of rivers in that it starts in North Yorkshire, in the northeast of England. Yeah. And it flows to the Irish Sea, which is on the northwest of England. That's impossible. The Pennines are in the way, aren't they? It manages to wend its way through the Ribble Valley.

The Ribble Valley? The River Ribble's Valley. Delicious chocolate bar. The Ribble Valley. The River Valley? The River Ribble's Valley. Delicious chocolate bar. The Ribble Valley. I love your caramel Ribble Valley, David. Yes, I have two fingers of Ribble Valley. Yes, I am. Thank you very much, Halley S. Corbett.

The River Ribble has had people living by it all the way back to the Bronze Age, and it was known in Roman times as Bellisama or Bremantona, which is probably in reference to a lake or river goddess. And I got this information thanks very much to Icy Sedgwick's fabulous folklore. Oh, she's terrific, isn't she? She is terrific. So there was originally this river goddess,

and the river goddess needed sacrifices. And then that changed over time to be linked to a ghost of a person who also needed sacrifices i don't think i've ever heard of someone being sacrificed to a ghost before well you haven't heard of pego now no i haven't she was a servant at wadodo Hall. Yeah. And according to William Henderson, who came up last episode, or Billy Hen, author of Notes on the Folklore of the Northern Counties of England and the Borders, he talks about the tale of Peg O'Neill, and that sandwich between Hob-Hole Hob and our friend, the Cold Lad of Hilton. Hey!

The Cold Lad. The Cold Lad. Oh, the Cold lad the cold lad i'm dead cold so peg o'neill was a servant at waddo hall and she offended her mistress who expressed a wish that she might fall and break her neck the mistress expressed that wish about Peg. Ooh. And Peg did. Oh, right. Is this like a Poirot kind of situation? Do we think the mistress pushed her? Or was it just one of those curses?

It was one of those curses. One of those curses. The other version of the tale from Haunted England by Christ in a Hole. Oh, God, Christ in a Hole hole we've got to help him out and that elaborates that the mistress of peg was a witch and that she sent peg for water and then threw a spell over her and peg slipped on the ice covered stepping stones and fell into the river river but you got to treat your employees better hashtag Hashtag capitalism. Come on. Unionise the ladies' maids. Let's get a ladies' maid union going.

We can't constantly be being cursed and slipping into rivers. And or falling and breaking one's neck. And or falling and breaking our necks. But that's the thing. They didn't have HR in those days. They didn't have a proper redundancy process so she died in the river oh sorry she died i shouldn't have not the right time for a david bowie impression not quite there and her ghost stole chickens killed cows and led sheep astray presumably into the river rather than just like smoking and stuff yeah selling them

cigs individually i have seen a lot of sheep with mike spray paint on them so maybe maybe they get into graffiti they get you see that when they've been on some of their ears have tags those sheep have been led astray the thing was with peg o'neill which makes her quite unique for a ghost is that she demands a sacrifice in the river every seven years and if the locals don't give her something something little like a dog or a cat or a chicken if they don't appease her with that sacrifice on peg's night a person will be drowned i said that like you just revealed the prize on a game show. Ooh, a human drowning, like it's a sports car or a motorboat. There is a Peg O'Neill's well, a well dedicated to Peg O'Neill. It's not saying that she's well, because she's not. She's dead. She's died in one of two ways.

That's about as unwell as you can be. She's the opposite of well, yeah. There's a statue that now doesn't have a head, and that's said to be a statue of her, but that's the thing about a statue without a head. You can kind of say it's anyone, broadly speaking. Anyone in a sort of shapeless robe. Her ghost not only haunts the River Ribble, but it also haunts Waddo Hall. And of course, this being lawmen,

I've looked up the reviews of Waddo Hall. Yeah. Is it good? Well, obviously, first thing i did was look at the worst reviews the one stars why would you read any other reviews exactly it is now the center for girl guiding uk wow the hq the epicenter patient zero of girl guide yes and the one star reviews to be honest they're all people who've clearly got their own axe to grind. So there's one from a local that just complains that it's too noisy. Is it the sound of Girl Guides? Is it the sound of frolicking? I'm guessing it's the Girl Guides.

Badge acquisition? One of the reviews, I think, they got haunted because it says they had a terrible experience. There's spider webs everywhere. That's pretty spooky. That's pretty spooky. That's pretty spooky. And the final one-star review is from Base Banjo. Four-word review. No one likes guys.

So these are of the girl variety rather than the tour guy variety. I guess so. Do you think he's a scout? Just a bitter scout? Well, I tried to get more of a vibe of Bass Banjo, so I looked at some of their other reviews. They are not a fan of TGI Fridays in Brighton. I got two stars.

What day did they go in, though? It doesn't say. I think that's a crucial information if you're reviewing a TGI Friday. How much did it feel like Friday? And also, what day was it? So we can measure that. The only other businesses that raise their ire

as much as Waddo Hall was the Starbucks in Blackburn and the Aldi in Clitheroe. They do, however, like Nando's and the National Rail Museum in York. That is quite a good museum, I have to say. Five stars?

Yeah, it's a four. I mean, you better like trains. But if you were to give it a one-star review, would you go in and go, one star, no one likes Trains? No one likes Trains. Yeah.

And four years ago, they gave a four-star review to Moorcock Inn in Jisburn Road. It's a funny name, isn't it? Yes. Yes, it is a funny name. We swept right past Plithero, which is really only funny written down.

Yes. And we can't say why it's funny funny so just see how it's spelt it sounds like if you think about like the game guitar hero that should give you an idea of what it sounds like yes similar vibe i suppose so yeah that's that's bass banjo who states that no one likes guys one star star for Waddo Hall. Oh, wait a minute. I haven't told you about the Mitten Horde. No, no. The Mitten Horde. The Mitten Horde.

There's a lot of historical stuff around that area. The Mitten Horde is some silver coins from the 1420s that were found between the Ribble and the River Hodder. The River Hodder. The River Hodder. Hodder. This is where the River Hodder. The River Hodder. The River Hodder. Hodder. This is where the story gets confusing.

It states on the Wikipedia entry for the Mitten Hoard that these were found in either 2006 or 2009. Okay. Was there like a front door number swinging around situation that could cause that confusion? Potentially. And yeah, it was 11 silver coins from the 1420s. And there's a note that 11 coins are documented, but there are more than 11 on display in the museum.

There's at least 25 in the picture I've seen. I also looked up the River Ribble reviews because I thought, hold on, what better way to get to the bottom of things? Because I think we've got to the bottom of the Waddo Hall. Yep. Too many guides. It has too many guides. many spider webs too many guides no one likes too much water no one likes reeds and it got one star from leo heaps yep all right his review says

it's a river not much more you can say and yet he only gave it one star. The heart of a poet. We've done about 15 minutes of podcast on it so far. So there are things you can say about it, Leo Heaps. His review for Eccleston Bridge, two stars. It's a bridge. I don't know if he knows what a review is.

I don't think he does either. He reviews the NatWest in Chorley as five stars. Five stars for a NatWest? How good can it be? It's got good distancing measures. Who knows what he thinks of Brett? I imagine the River Ribble has better distancing measures. You could get onto the other side of the river.

I mean, did you go the full length of the river before reviewing it? I don't think you did. I don't want to be like the guys who say, unless you've read everything Jordan Peterson peterson ever written you can't criticize him but like you should at least investigate some of the river ribble before you start throwing around one star reviews if there's a pattern of this because for curdin valley park it gives it one star his review it's a park no it says won't bother due to the heavy rain. It didn't even go. It didn't even go. It didn't even go, Leo.

It didn't even go. One star. Won't bother due to the heavy rain. If you do have to go, have a nice day in the rain. I'm not going to be reading your review on the day that you wrote it. You don't, he doesn't understand. It's not going to be raining every day, Leo Heaps. He just doesn't, I've never known anybody to not understand something as profoundly

as he has misunderstood what a review is this guy reviewing films will be like um i don't sit in seat de because i'm sitting there it's like i'm not gonna watch it at the same time as you the tesco extra gets four stars all the review says is the wife likes it he reviews a lot of petrol stations and they get five stars for having petrol. What? I don't like this guy. Why not just, it's a petrol station, what more can you say? But he is a lot

less of a fan of Nando's than Bass Banjo. Okay. And he's got a review for T-Bay Services, Southbound, which is a legendary services, is a very good services. His review for T-Bay Services, Southbound, four stars,

always call in on our way to Scotland. Now then, there's a problem there, Leo. You've reviewed the T-Base services southbound. Can you do nothing right, Leo? I would say if that is accurate, it deserves five stars because it's that good that you come off the motorway go back in the opposite direction

to which you were going in order to visit these services and then have to continue on and turn around again to go on your way to Scotland you're a bad reviewer five stars I appreciate the distancing measures

what more can you say he has definitely distanced himself from me I'll distance myself from you leo actually but there is someone else who would give the river ribble a very poor review and that is a young man who was traveling from waddingdon to clitheroe on pegs night and he had to cross on the bungley or brangley stepping stones the bungley or brangley stepping stones are those two really had a choice between or is that two names for the same stepping stones set of stepping stones and there's a type someone's done a typo i don't know whether it was christ in a hole or

william henderson someone did a typo either way he was adamant he was going to take his horse and cross there because he had to get to glitherow. Doing stepping stones on a horse doesn't sound easy. Well, the river was swollen as well. And the quote is, it was Peg's night and she has not had her life. He was being warned against it by everyone he spoke to. But he wasn't afraid of no ghost, he said, or words to that effect. And he and the horse were swept away, deaded, never seen again. And Peg got her soul.

So that is a little warning about the river river. If you go on a particular night, Peg's night, no one says what it is, but you do want to go there. Even if you really, really, really need to get to Clitheroe. Even if you do. Don't do it. On the other hand hand trying to cross stepping stones

with the river swollen on a horse any other day of the year super safe definitely do that law men recommend you do that what more can you say

it's a podcast what more can you say oh no people are going to give us one star reviews saying it's a podcast what more can you say no they need to give us five star reviews

for the distancing measures but make sure you listen to this podcast southbound. On your way to Scotland southbound. I could just see him reversing through the surfaces. Careening through the Central Reservation. Giving them food. What are you doing, Leo? You don't understand anything.

Unbelievable, Leo Heaps. I didn't actually bother going to Scotland because it was raining. If you do have to go, have a nice day in the rain. It might not be raining. It's probably not raining. You're such an annoying person. What I would like people to do is give us five stars reviews and say the wife

likes it. So, are you going to score me? I'll score the flip out of the river rebel i mean i've given you a lot of options yeah i'm going to score you with the the enthusiasm of leo heaps but hopefully some a certain degree more skill okay then so first cat name well the river rebel we've been making fun of the name of the river rebel since time immemorial on this podcast. Since the time immemorial. Since you said the River Ribble, and I think I said David Bowie's favourite river, and you said, what? Was it?

And then I had to explain. Who knows how long ago that was. Other names. Well, we've got Willie's Hen. Willie Hen. Pego now. Leo Heap. Is it Leo Heap or Leo Heaps?

Leo Heaps, plural. Leo Heaps. Leo Heaps of bad reviews. Christ in a hole. Christ in a hole. That's going to be popping up quite a lot, like Christ in a hole. Like Christ out of a hole. Yes, he was sort of a pop-up pirate character, wasn't he?

You know, when they came and put the sticks in him, the spears. Is that what that Roman centurion was doing? He wasn't he? You know, when they came and put the sticks in him, the spears. Is that what that Roman centurion was doing? He wasn't testing if he was dead. No, it was like a pop-up pirate. And when they put

the thorny crown on his head, that was like Bookeroo. How much stuff can we put on him? A crucifix. We keep going until he kicks off. And he never did

because he was so meek. So, Jesus Christ Bookeroo, brilliant board game. Jesus Christ Bookeroo, brilliant board game. Jesus Christ Bookeroo. Bellissima, which was the river goddess, and the Roman name of the river, Ribble. Is that what you said the previous time?

Did I just not hear it right? Bellissima. Bellissima or Bellissima? You said it the second time. It sounded way more Italian. You're like, Bellissima. That's the thing. No one knows what a Latin accent was.

Yeah. And it's always just done very dry. But you imagine it would be Italian. Like, veni, vidi,

vici. No, I don't like that. No. Scouse. I think it's more sort of, veni,

vidi, vici. Veni, vidi, vici. Tempus Fuses. Happy, dear.

Any other good names? Because that's, I mean, Christ in a Hole is going to be hard to beat. Christ in a Hole. And Clitheroe. Okay. All right. I think it's a high three.

How about that? A high three. It's a high three. Good. Oh, no. You're forgetting the triptych of Thorn Gill, Gail Beck and Batty White Beck. I'm sorry.

Okay, Thor. Thor for the sugar babes. Second category then. Supernatural. Ghost. We've got a ghost. We've got the ghost of Peg O'Neill. Shaman sacrifice.

Two curses, I think. It's a witch. Yeah. Or just a bad employer. A witch or a curse. But then there's also the curse of peg has sort of become a curse herself hasn't she yeah if you don't sacrifice she kills someone that's pretty good she did also haunt waddo hall as well as a river so that's quite busy for a ghost like as a sort of second job yeah she's not going to get a good reference. No, no,

no, really bad reviews. No one likes ghosts. She's a vengeful spirit that you have to sacrifice every seven years. What more can you say? I think it's a three again, I'm afraid. Okay. Is that alright? Yeah, it's pretty spooky, it's fair enough.

My next category, inaccuracies. We don't know what happened to Peg O'Neill. We don't know whether just her mistress expressed a wish that she might fall and break her neck, or her mistress was a witch that cursed her to drown. Yeah, pretty big margin of error there. We don't know the name of those stepping stones. They're either Brangley or Bungley. Yeah, sort of A-B testing in this story.

There's the Mitten Hoard that was either found in 2006 or 2009. Is it mitten like gloves? Mithon. Oh, Mithon. Mithon, which is a hoard of 11 silver coins, and all evidence shows there's more than 11 coins there. That's quite spooky, actually. I should have mentioned that in Supernatural.

I find that quite mysterious. That's just bad labelling. Yeah, okay. What if they're not countable? That sometimes happens. Maybe I should go back to the Wikipedia picture and see if I can count 25 again. You probably can't. You probably can't count them.

I probably can't. Okay, different number every time. It's the River Ribble, or the Bell Bellissima or the Bremantona. Even Peg O'Neill may be being mistaken for an ancient river goddess. Yeah. That also demands a sacrifice every seven years. I'd say there's a lot of mistakes in Leo Heaps' reviews. There's a lot of mistakes.

The big mistake was you even attempted to write a review of these things, Leo. Should have just written them down on a piece of paper and then scrunched it up and thrown it in a bin. Yes. And that review said, it's a bin, what more can you sell? Yeah. All right. It's four out of five for mistakes. It would have been five, but that was quite a well-chosen category.

Yes. Which was not a mistake. I mean, oh no. Damn it. Final category is stars. Why? Because of all the stars from the reviews. Oh, yeah, all right.

Yes, all right. There weren't actually that many because a lot of them were quite low reviews. But it all adds up. Outside of one Nat West. The Moorcock Inn. Moorcock Inn. That's a star?

That got four stars but it's now permanently closed. Were there any stars outside of the context of reviews? Like in the night sky? Maybe on Peg's night, there are stars. That's a stretch, James. And they would be reflected in the River Ribble, which would give you twice as many, however many you're thinking of.

Well, James, vis-a-vis your final category, you know, it's a category. What more can you say? One star. Sorry, no one likes stars. You wouldn't even look at these stars on your way to Scotland? No. Not these stars. Not even as stars on your way to Scotland? No. Not these stars.

Not even as I reverse my way to Scotland. All the way. All the way. At the M6. Yes. What a lovely story, James. I think the fundamentals of that story were five stars. Some of the reviews, one star.

It's a review, what can you say? If you would like some extras, please come to join us on the patreon.com forward slash lawmen pod. On the patreon.com forward slash lawmen pod. On the patreon.com forward slash lawmen pod. This is Robot James taking over here. He doesn't really understand how the world works. Please join us on the patreon.com. And if you do that, you get access to the Discord, where we're having some wonderful chats about things like knitting.

You're pitching knitting. Yeah, that's a USP. That's Bowie just warming up. He's gone. He's spun off into space that's yeah that's probably how Captain Tom's spaceship I'm sorry you're confusing I think Major Tom

from the song Space with beloved NHS Patriot Captain Tom although or am I? did the papers want to know what shirts he wore they were interested in just about everything Patriot Captain Tom. Oh. Although. Or am I? Did the papers want to know what shirts he wore?

They were interested in just about everything. Maybe I was talking about that one. Who knows he didn't have a space rocket? He might have had a space rocket. Maybe that's how he managed to do those 100 laps in a little space car. Maybe. Maybe. I think this has been the least respectful ending to an episode ever. Yeah.

Great, isn't it? It's really good to get to shrug off the shackles of respect. Yeah. Finally. Please, everyone, if you want to respond to our comments, you can do so in our live show that we're doing tomorrow, if you're listening to this on the day of release, or today, if you're listening to this the day after release,

or then, you've missed it. Yeah, yeah, yesterday. If you listen to it at any other point in history. It's part of the Cheerful Earful Podcast Festival, and if you Google Cheerful Earful Podcast Festival, you'll be able to find ticket links. You feel like a right old Sherlock Holmes.