Loremen Podcast - S5 Ep13: Loremen S5Ep13 - The Spitting Ghost of Haddon Hall

Episode Date: December 14, 2023

Ewww! A low stakes, gross ghost! James tells ABK about some well-documented (but not encouraged) ghosts from Derbyshire. Something about the formerly-ruined building of Haddon Hall has stirred the poetic side of James. He even reads out a bit of what some would consider poetry, or indeed poesie*. This episode also features the stunning debut of brand new character "Geordie Samuel L Jackson". *If you're from the past, before the invention of the letter T. LoreBoys nether say die! Support the Loremen here (and get stuff): patreon.com/loremenpod ko-fi.com/loremen Check the sweet, sweet merch here... https://www.teepublic.com/stores/loremen-podcast?ref_id=24631 @loremenpod youtube.com/loremenpodcast www.instagram.com/loremenpod www.facebook.com/loremenpod

Welcome to Lawmen, a podcast about local legends and obscure curiosities from days of yore. I'm James Shakeshaft. And with me, Alistair Beckett-King. Wait a minute. Just mixing it up. You're making it sound like this is one we pre-recorded separately. We would never do that. We did a couple of times, but no one ever knows.

But this was a real one, wasn't it? 27. Get on with it, Jack. Don't confuse me and the listener listener have a listen to the spitting ghost of haddon hall are you opening with the spitting a little bit of spoiler alistair i've got another tale for you from tales and traditions of the high peak by william wood by the willie woods yes willie woods actually to honest, it's more inspired by it because I saw a little bit of poetical writing that he did. And it turns out the place he was referring to also has a bunch of ghost stories. Oh, very nice. And the place he was referring to was Haddon Hall. So is that in

the Peak District? This particular Haddon Hall that I'm referring to is in Bakewell, yes. I'm not referring to the Haddon Hall in Beckenham where David Bowie wrote Hunky Dory, sadly now demolished. You must have been a little disappointed when you found out those were different Haddon Halls. Yes, I was a little disappointed. But I had a look at loads of pictures of Bowie in this house and that buoyed my spirits again.

Oh, good. Oh, that's nice. In the North East, hadon means hold on. Hadon. Like wait, like hadon. Oh, yeah. Or hadon. If someone's getting ahead of you, you might say hadon, hadon. Okay. Not like hold on to your hats or hold on to your butts. Yeah, you could say that. You could say that. Yeah. I don't know if you would say that, but you could.

If Jurassic Park had hired a Geordie instead of Samuel L. Jackson. Head on to your butts. That was Geordie Samuel L. Jackson there. A new character for the podcast. There's so much distance in Geordie Samuel L. Jackson. Here, give us one wallet. I'm not getting on no plane with no snakes or something. I haven't seen...

That's Mr T. No snakes on a plane. I know it's snakes on a plane, but I'm pretty certain I'm not getting on a plane with Mr... I don't think he's... He's definitely on the plane. Oh, he's already on the plane. Yeah, he wasn't told there were snakes on the plane beforehand. That's why he's so annoyed.

The whole film falls apart, James, if they know in advance that there's snakes on the plane. There will be some snakes on this plane. We're experiencing some snakes. What does he say then? I know he did a big swear and we're avoiding the swears. I think he says, I'm sick of these flipping snakes on this blooming plane, I think is the line.

Do you ever want any more snakes on this plane? Is that offensive to Geordies and Samuel L. Jackson? If I see one more snake, it's deeply offensive to Samuel L. Jackson, but I don't think it's offensive to Geordies. It's complimentary to Geordies. AK-47,

when that absolutely has to kill every fella in the room. I needed a radio friendly Geordie equivalent to Melon Farmer. But no, none of that. No, not that. Okay. None of that. Haddon Hall is near the river. Why? Because that's the bank it's next to.

Do you want to hear the bit that inspired me to look it up? If you can face reading a little bit of poetry. As you and regular listeners will know i'm not a fan of poetry i'm going to undermine it slightly but this is quite good it's not a poem poem doesn't rhyme and stuff right it's just like quite nice writing which i think is the happy medium between poem and story so i'm going to read it in the style of david bowie and as regular listeners and yourself will know, that is in the style of Harry H. Corbett playing David Bowie in an ill-fated biopic that was sadly never made. I'll just get us into it.

So it talks about Bakewell's greatest gem being the fine old baronial mansion, Haddon Hall, which is where the Duke of Rutland lived. And he kept 140 servants there in 1862. This noble family left Haddonhall for Belvoir Castle about 150 years ago, and now the council board, where the mighty chieftain sat, is deserted. The minstrel's song, the merry laugh, the shouts of mirth and revelry, no more are heard. Silence now pervades this once joyous place. All is hushed as the broken minstrel, silent as the grave. Time, the ever-rolling stream of time, washes all the way before it.

The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, eventually perish before its overwhelming flood. Look here, proud, arrogant man. Perish before its overwhelming flood. Look here, proud, arrogant man. Read in this fast-perishing mansion the transitory duration of earthly stability. Wow. Pretty powerful stuff, right? And Harry H. Corbett says that.

Yeah. I think William Wood actually wrote that himself. Good for him. Well done. I mean, it sounds patronising, but well done him. In case you, like me, stop listening when poems happen, Haddon Hall became deserted because the family moved to another fancy house. And it kind of says, like, this once beautiful place

where there was massive parties and stuff, like, everything fades and decays over time. And Haddon Hall was abandoned in the 17th century. It was restored in the 1920s, which is where a little bit of the metaphor falls down i think and now it's like a you can go visit it it's very good it was um it was in the princess bride oh it was prince humperdinck's castle well there you go yeah that was haddon hall because it's very unique because pursuing the 1600s and 1920 it had no

modernizations or anything so whilst it did fall into disrepair, it was also weirdly preserved because it wasn't, like, fixed as it went along. Because nobody put in telephones. Yes. Motor cars. Central heating, things like that. Oh, no, no, no, no, no.

We won't have any of that sort of thing. But, yes, Prince Humperdinck's castle, the Great Hall's Prince Humperdinck's bedroom. I mean, you might know it from the 1892 opera. Oh, yeah. Oh, that's why it's been ringing a bell. Yeah. It's about the true story of the 16th century Dorothy Vernon,

who is the very attractive daughter of Sir George Vernon. How attractive was Sir George Vernon? Do we know? I think it was standard attractivity. Right. Not especially attractive. History doesn't record. And she eloped to be with her love, John Manners, who...

I believe he was a cyborg of some kind? No, they were welcomed back into the family in the end. Oh, okay. Probably not her. No, he was played by... Well, I don't need to tell you. In the opera, he was played by Cortis Pounds. Cortis Pounds? Cortis Pounds, yes.

An actor and singer who was, fun fact, in the Oily Cart Opera Company, which is Gilbert and Sullivan's opera company. So he was in the first runs of all the Gilbert and Sullivan ones. That is a claim to fame. Quite the claim to fame, yeah. I've seen one light opera in my time, and it was a light opera version of The Witches of Eastwick.

Oh. And not great. I think I've been in The Pirates of Penzance one light opera oh my time and it was a light opera version of the witches of eastwick oh and not great i think i've been in the pirates of penzance and the micado one was more racist than the other you can't be racist against pirates james i think the reason we're here is ghosts right you want to know about the ghosts i would prefer to hear about the ghosts you're in luck because unsurprisingly in the book haunted places of derbyshire by jill armitage we got some ghosts jill i think it's safe to say by the way the author of this book jill is not a skeptic no this is the opening broadside of the haddon hall section the paranormal activity of haddon hall is neither well documented nor encouraged yet there is definitely something that even the sceptics can't fail to notice.

Ooh. And so when she says it's not encouraged, she means the people in charge of it are discouraging the ghosts? I guess so. Or they're at least not encouraging the ghosts. What's the opposite of a Ouija board? Well, Ouija is yes in German and French, so it would be a non-nein board. Yeah.

Yes, a non-nein board would be the... The non-nein board. The opposite. It would be the quite literal opposite of Ouija board. And is it just no? Just one? A planchette and a board just has the word no. Not for me, thanks.

I suppose it would be for the ghosts to contact you. And when the ghosts say, are you there? You'd have to be like, no. Leave a message. This is the first bit of ghostly sighting that she reports. One visitor witnessed a spectral cook in the kitchen beating a young kitchen lad. So I need to know, sorry to stop you so soon in your testimony, James, but was the young kitchen lad also a ghost?

Or was it that a living, breathing, hot-blooded child being beaten by a ghost? What we can say here, that is not well documented. That's one of the not well documented bits. I can only assume that child was discouraging a ghost. Yeah. And the ghost got angry and started to beat it. I suppose you would discourage the ghost if they were beating your children. Yeah.

I wouldn't encourage a ghost to beat a child no oh gosh no another visitor said that their 12 year old grandson who'd accompanied them on a visit felt so oppressed by presences he simply couldn't walk through the long gallery i've got like that on various shopping trips with my parents i'm so oppressed by the presences i can't try on any more shoes, mother. I used to get really oppressed at the metro centre. Even though, presumably, there was the promise of rides. At Metroland, yes.

Well remembered. I did my own deep dive into it the other day, the Metroland. It was the biggest theme park that was inside in Europe. You don't have to tell me. Someone has to tell the listener. You can be shepherded there by the metronomes. I mean, we've covered this before, but it was a wonderful place. And now I think it's a VU cinema and maybe a Quasar laser.

A VU. A VU. Members of staff have frequently heard footsteps in various places in the empty hall. And the head steward experienced a presence while she was locking up classic presence classic presence i thought you said it wasn't well documented james it's all down here well even even i a skeptic i'm forced to admit that something's going on well you can't fail to notice this i have not failed and i've noticed it an ex comptroller heard female voices and laughter in the courtyard.

I forgot to look up what comptroller meant. What is a comptroller? What is a... Apart from the comptroller in The Simpsons, I don't think it's a word I encounter. I always thought it was people saying comptroller wrong. That's what I assumed. It's not that.

It's its own word. There's a stray P in there, which just doesn't sit right with me. Let's find out now. I'm going to look up what is a comptroller. Well, it could be a royal household official who examines and supervises expenditures, or a public official. Are you reading this, or have you just realised what it is? Just remembering.

Okay, all right. Or a public official who audits government accounts and sometimes certifies expenditures, or a comptroller. Oh, hold on a minute according to houston texas.gov it is just a misspelling of controller houston texas.gov because if that's true this is an outrage that we're still using the word comptroller according to miriam webbs miriam webster not miriam according to miriam webster my mum's mate get her on the pod. Miriam. Miriam. Miriam. Just leaning

over the fence. Alright. It says, did you know, if you think comptroller looks like a mistaken spelling of controller, you're partially right. In the 15th century, middle English speakers altered the spelling of controller from the French. To make it controller. Whilst they were thinking about the

word compt account and ended up with the word compt To make it Comptroller. Whilst they were thinking about the word Compt account and ended up with the word Comptroller, it seems to say. I mean, I've definitely started paraphrasing and making up my own history there. Unacceptable. Get the P out of Comptroller now. Why did we have Brexit if we've still got this P in Comptroller? I've no idea.

I've no idea. What's the point? They're laughing at us, James. Too right. To be honest, I thought we voted to take back Comptroller. I've done idea. I've no idea. What's the point? They're laughing at us, James. Too right. To be honest, I thought we voted to take back Comptroller. I've done it again. It's insidious. So a Comptroller, or to put that another way, a controller.

Yeah, heard an X one. Heard female voices and laughter in the courtyard. Oh, that's the whole story. Oh, and there have been reports of music coming from the old Vernon Chapel, which, again, I think that's the name of oh and there have been reports of music coming from the old vernon chapel which again i think that's the name of a place not a guy called not my mum's friend vernon chapel he was engaged to miriam webster for a time but um they're friends on facebook do you want to hear in jill's words the most amazing experience that happened uh yeah i mean i'm ready to believe it's more amazing than the experiences described thus far. Okay, so this happened about 20 years ago. This book was published in 2005.

Bang, mid-80s. And one of the staff had just walked through the banqueting hall, started to climb the stairs to the Long Gallery when he stopped mid-stride. At the top of the stairs was a shape of a woman in dark Elizabethanabethan dress and i'm going to quote jill here yet she was no living breathing woman this was a fully formed ghost and as the member of staff stood transfixed she rolled a goblet of phlegm rounded her mouth and spat it on the floor what that that's not ladylike behaviour. Jill assures us that that's a habit that we now find quite disgusting, but would have been acceptable in Elizabethan society. Would it?

I did look it up and yes, yes, that's true. Oh, okay, okay. Just generally spitting was fine. A general Google and mostly just reading the small synopses has taught me some horrible things. Okay, blowing your nose was considered rude but gobbing was fine so blowing your nose was gross but if you like hiked it up and spat it on the floor that was fine i'm guessing everywhere was shoes on house to be honest because that is

horrid also this was very hard to verify because it made me feel sick to search it. One story is that people used to wash their face with their own spit because water was so grotty. Is that true? I don't know. I do wonder if we exaggerate how filthy people were in the past. I just can't see people washing their face with their own spit. I got this from a downloadable PDF for schools. Oh, well, it's definitely true then. So I don't know.

And it was not well citated. downloadable pdf for schools oh well it's definitely true then so i don't know and it was not well citated i haven't watched that video that everyone's watching and i'm just i'm afraid to well that's horrible and he mid-stride as well so i'm imagining him one legged like a flamingo throughout this entire experience on the stairs he took a couple of seconds to compose himself then turned and ran and again quoting jill the experience had left him very shaken and he retired shortly afterwards from his career he was gobbed into retirement yeah he just quit and jill goes on to say on my many visits to haddon hall i'm always drawn to the death mask of lady grace manners in the small museum so lady manners was the founder of the school in

Bakewell and was the daughter-in-law of Dorothy Vernon. Remember? Oh yeah. The lady that ran off with John Manners from earlier. Again, I'm quoting Jill directly. After psychometrizing, after psychometrizing? Don't know how you say that word. Press on. After she did that, she felt that this was Lady Manners, who's often in visitation at the hall and the most probable spitting spectre. The spitting spectre. She should have had slightly better manners. Yes, Alistair.

See what I'm saying there? Yeah, I am seeing what you're saying and I am agreeing with it. Should have called her Lady Bad Manners. Or Appropriate Manners for the time, but this will not age well. Yeah. I know you can't slander the dead. Hopefully establish that. We've tried.

Five series is in now. But if you say that someone's ghost did something, that's a bit more slanderous. Yes. Because it's sort of like they're still doing it. It feels like it almost could be more actionable. Yeah, but crucially, though, by whom? I think it would have to be the ghost. Any psychometrisers in the vicinity.

We might want to chip in. Is it that Jill who subjected herself to psychometry? After psychometrizing, I feel that it is this lady, Manus, who is often in visitation at the hall and the probable spitting spectre. So this is some process that she has undergone to gain psychic knowledge? Yes. Give me sight beyond sight kind of thing, like Lion-O, I guess.

Right, yeah. Or like really confident people on Twitter. Do they psychometrize? I don't know what they do, but you know the way there are always people who seem to know everything. Yeah. Or at least seem very confident. This is the podcasting version of vague booking.

Oh, why are people so annoying naming their names? Why do some Elizabethan ghosts think it's all right to gob on the floor in front of butlers? Yeah, so that's the story of the spitting ghost of Haddon Hall. What a mild and then revolting story. Yeah, it really turned, didn't it? So you ready to score me? Yes, let's score Haddon hall yes okay then category

one naming i thought they were really good yeah i like lady manners the ironically named lady manners and by extension john manners presumably um i liked miriam webster mom's mate yeah vernon chapel mom's other mate what's the name of that actor there's a good old actor's name in there samuel l jackson not no they're not not the famous geordie actor samuel jackson i'm nick fury i'm nick furious i bought these buddies i'm putting together a team uh cortis pounds cortis pound c-o-u-r-t-i-c-e i feel like that's worth two or three points in itself. Courtice Pounds. And it's not even that much of a pseudonym. I think his name was like Peter Courtice Pounds. And he just dropped the Peter. Just dropped

the Peter. I'm Courtice Pounds. I'm coming at you. Great choice, really. It would be a two or a three, I think. But the presence of Courtice, quote, Peter Pounds. It's Charles. Charles. Charles Courtice Pounds. His presence in the story has elevated it to a full. Oh, nice one.

Nice one, Charlie. Cortis. Chaz. Okay, then. Supernatural. Pretty darn ghostly. You know me, James. You know I'm a sceptic.

Yeah, but I mean, you're going to find this hard to ignore. I could not ignore it. Load of ghosts. Tons of ghosts. A woman visibly hocking a loogie. Yeah, a ghost loogie. A goblet of spit. Yeah.

Now, is she transparent? Can we actually see the tongue moving? Oh. Oh, what a revolting prospect. Yeah, that is horrible. Only to then emit the spectral expectorant. Mm, yeah. Onto the, ugh.

The expectoplasm. Ugh. And would that disappear along with the ghost or is it like the blood that you can't clean up it's just some some spit that you don't want to touch so i think it's uh our first impressions it's it's five out of five but after psychotraumatizing it's uh yeah sorry i've just consulted the old psychotrometer. Oh. It's just a one. I didn't think that was back up and running. I thought it was still broken.

Yeah, well, I've just... Just powered it up. There's a Van de Graaff generator. It's not doing anything. It's just decorative at the top. It's just generating Van de Graaffs. And it's one. One out of five for Supernatural.

Even for the cook that was either beating a real small boy or a ghost of a small boy. No, if a ghost had beaten up a boy in the present day, then I wouldn't argue. But the lack of clarity. You know what I'm talking about here. I'm talking about poor documentation. I thought it was well documented. Albeit not encouraged.

You wouldn't encourage a ghost to spit. No, I'd put up a sign. Yeah. Like in the swimming baths. Yes. No heavy gobbing. Or kitchen boy beating. Third one is mind your manners. Very good.

Yeah, she should have. Should have. That might have been something that the cook was saying to the kitchen boy. That's a good point, actually. Yes. And she laid to a birching. Yes. So that's another case of mind your

manners yeah i mean the manners family yeah yeah yeah is the name of the woman that's why you know they came in dorothy vernon had a mind for some manners and that was she eloped and whatnot i mean i'm putting it thin there for all i know that might mean what psychometrizing mean it might be mind over manners um that's well it started out strong yeah but it ended feebly i should have put as a case fair enough i think it's a three i'll give you a three for it for we've got it we've got lady manners that's very good she didn't have manners that's very good someone else was called manners okay i'll take it i'm gonna leave us on a thoughtful note actually my final category is the transitory duration of earthly stability well um yeah right there is there is that yeah no yeah

i mean i found david bowie's voice very persuasive there. And earthly stability, when you really think about it, James, like when you really think about it, it is transitory, isn't it? It is. The transitory duration of earthly stability. I mean, can you even put a number on the transitory duration of earthly stability? Oh, you can have a go. Yeah, probably one of the higher numbers, I would think.

Yeah, big time. Probably easily five. Yeah, definitely. I a go. Yeah, probably one of the higher numbers, I would think. Yeah, big time. Probably easily five. Yeah, definitely. I would say. But James, when you think about it, these numbers that we apply to tales, that's just like how the authorities want you to think in these straight lines, isn't it? Yeah. When actually, like, we're all brothers.

Yeah. And probably some sisters as well. Oh, good. Probably some non-binary siblings. But the point is, it's five're all brothers. Yeah. And probably some sisters as well. Oh, good. Probably some non-binary siblings. But the point is, it's five. Still five, good. It's still five. It's still five.

I was worried there that you would get... That's locked down, yeah? That five's locked down? It's in the ledger, yes. Okay, great. I was worried that you were going to apply the transistory duration of earthly civility to the number five

and crumble it down to a four or three. But no. Oh, no. It was refurbished in the 1920s. Lady Manor style spit take as I realised I could have done that. What? No.

Yeah, I could have done that. Just, ah. But no, I wouldn't have done that. I psyched dramatised today to do out of four points. So thank you very much. I'm not going to pull the same scam twice. Thank you. Thank you.

Lovely bit of poetry though. Would you say that was poetry or just fruity prose? It was prose, but it was flavoursome. Flavoursome prose. Chewy. Poetical. Yeah. A little bit of the old poesy, as they used to call poetry,

before the invention of the tea. Really? Is this one of them French words? Yeah, poesy used to mean poetry. Like a little the tea. Really? Is this one of them French words? Yeah, poésie used to mean poetry. Like a little flower? Yeah. Poésie. P-O-E-S-I-E. Poésie. Oh, right. Have you ever heard a Scottish person say poem? No.

Poeum? No, they don't. They do. Even that famous one from New Year. What's he called? You know. Auld Lang Syne? Yeah, that guy. Yeah, Robbie Burns. I'm sure he would have said poeum. Even Robbie Bums? Even Robbie Bums would have said that, yeah.by Burns. I'm sure he would have said Puyum. Even Robbie Bums. Even Rabby Bums would have said that, yeah. Friend of the show, Rabby Bums would have said Puyum. Look, if any Scottish people are listening and disagreeing with me now,

it's just in the nature of the medium I can't respond to that because I can't hear you. So there's no point saying anything. Alistair, it's the most wonderful time of the year. It's Christmas Pig. It's the piggiest season of the year Yes How are you celebrating Christmas Pig this year?

In the traditional way Yes With a live stream Yeah, me too 21st of December I'll meet you on YouTube 8.30pm Gumped GMT

Alright then, youtube.com forward slash lawmenpodcast That's how you'll find it Christmas Pig to you, Mr. Shakespeare. Christmas pig to you too, Sue. Bah hum pig. If you subscribe to YouTube.com forward slash Lawmen Podcast and there's like a click the thing that means you get alerts and then you'll be kept abreast of Christmas piggery.

So there it was was it spoiled by yeah me mentioning the spitting or spoiled by having lots of spitting well the listener now will never get to experience the horror and surprise i experienced when i heard the story without knowing she was going to spit everywhere well maybe some people skip the beginning thinking it's an elaborate advert yeah maybe some people skip the beginning thinking it's an elaborate advert. Yeah, maybe some people skip the beginning because it's just weird rambling. I'm going to pop a record scratch in here.

Yeah, you drop a scratch, James. A pork scratching. Well, it was a bit of a short episode this week, and as mentioned, that's because we're gearing up for the Xmas Pig event. A pig-tacular it's foresigned extraordinary i couldn't think of any decent it's gonna be pig good hognormous i don't think i don't think one of these works no me neither you going to have a fantastic time.

Join us on the 21st of December. Porktacular. That's better. Sorry. Carry on. That is good, actually. Porktacular. I'm going to cut it out.

But it sounds like it's about sporks rather than pork. That's the porktacular. Maybe it just works on its own. Yeah. Fantastic. Ah, yes. Brilliant. I knew we'd come to something good. Something pig good.

Yeah, something something hognormous. So join us on the 21st of December at 8.30pm GMT

in the year 2023. 2023 on youtube.com forward slash lawmen podcast best to subscribe and yeah

probably best yeah I think there's still a button that says alert me to things yeah slam that bell oh you are a youtuber

aren't you punch subscribe fill out the form that allows you to hit the like button yeah and join us for an

Xmas Pig good event 2023 2023 I don't know we'll get back into that again 2023

and now un-record scratch that's just the end finish the music now yeah so this has really been two guys remembering two guys remembering things this has really been two guys remembering. Two guys remembering things.

This has really been our spin-off podcast. Two guys vaguely not really remembering things.