Loremen Podcast - S5 Ep16: Loremen S5Ep16 - The Curse of Naworth Castle with Chris Cantrill

Episode Date: January 18, 2024

It's our first proper episode of the year, and we're welcoming back Deputy Loreperson, Chris Cantrill! Chris drops in to plug the Delightful Sausage's upcoming Radio 4 series Icklewick FM, and to whisk James and Alasdair off to a medieval wonderland of his own devising. Expect a tale of betrayal and intrigue from the borderlands of England (and Scotland). And prepare to be utterly astonished... because Chris actually read the book beforehand this time. This episode was edited by Joseph Burrows - Audio Editor. LoreBoys nether say die! Support the Loremen here (and get stuff): patreon.com/loremenpod ko-fi.com/loremen Check the sweet, sweet merch here... https://www.teepublic.com/stores/loremen-podcast?ref_id=24631 @loremenpod youtube.com/loremenpodcast www.instagram.com/loremenpod www.facebook.com/loremenpod

Welcome to Lawmen, a podcast about local legends and obscure curiosities from days of yore, with me, James Shakeshaft. And me, Alastair Beckett-King. And a deputy lawperson this week. Yes, a deputy lawperson. Chris Cantrell. Yeah, I think the troublesome recalcitrant Cantrell of episodes gone by is a thing of the past. And now we finally meet a kinder, more conciliatory Chris Cantrell.

Oh, I think Alistair's had a bump on the head. Wait, how has it come out in the edit? Because I remember him being really nice to me. Ooh, have a listen. To the Curse of Narworth Castle. Alistair. Psst. Hello, James.

Oh, that is a very good whisper. Thank you. Happy New Year. Welcome to me, yes. Happy New Year to. Thank you. Happy New Year. Welcome to me, yes. Happy New Year to you. Welcome to Happy New Year with me. We've got a guest. That's why I'm whispering, as ever.

We're whispering so as not to alert the guest, so as not to alarm them. Yes, with this one, we don't want to startle them because we're kicking off 2024 with a bang with a guest deputy lawperson, Chris Cantrell. What? Radio 4's own Chris Cantrell. What? Radio 4's own Chris Cantrell. Off of Radio 4?

Off of Radio 4. The fourth best radio. Yes. That is not my opinion, actually. Hi, Chris. Oh, there you are, guys. It's a pleasure to be back. How are you doing?

I'm very well, thanks. How are you? Yeah, thank you for the very nice intro, but I want you guys both to know I haven't changed, but in my head, I thought my days of going on Walmart are behind me now. I don't need to do that anymore. Enough is enough.

I don't think I get enough respect from you two as hosts. So why, why Chris, have you come crawling back? Well, I've got something to plug, haven't I? Oh,

oh, how the tables have turned. I've got something to plug. I've got something to plug. Now, Chrissy Cantrell wants something from us. I've got something to plug.

I went through my Rolodex of podcasts, of podcasts that will have me back on. And, there's only one name in there. That's basically

just a flag. So we, no respect off you guys. No respect off, I'm just going to say it, dreams that listen to your

podcast. They don't. They hate you mostly. We get a lot of complaints. They just talk about, is he

drunk? Is he brain damaged? And I'm like, stop tagging me in. I don't want to, stop inviting me

to join the Discord. Chris, the elephant in the room is your new Radio 4 series. The Delightful, I mean, I say yours, it's mainly Amy's.

The Delightful Sausages new show. I mean, I'll just, I thought, should we save it till the end or should we just go into it now and then?

I wouldn't assume everyone's going to still be listening then, so if you want to get a plug in. Yeah, yeah, that's fair. Get it in before they throw their headphones away in disgust. Okay, so the reason that I've done a lot of historical research today is because on the 23rd of January, Tuesday at 11pm on BBC Radio 4, at 11pm on BBC Radio 4. I and my good friend, Amy Gladhill, are releasing our new radio show, which is called Icklewick FM.

And it's an improvised sitcom set in a regional... It's meant to be that place in the corner of a map, you know, where you can't really see it. And when you look at it, you lose it. It's a regional, post-industrial every town. And me and my friend Amy are the hosts of a local community radio station. And it's about the lives of the community as told through the switchboard of this radio station.

So we get people calling in. There's an episode where there's a queue in the middle of town and nobody knows what the queue's for. So we spend the episode on picking it. It's got like Max Hilcox in it. He's our producer, Lucy Beaumont, Colin Hull and loads more people. And like I say, it's all improvised. And me and Amy don't have any formal improv training. And I think when you listen to it, I think that will become immediately obvious.

There's a lot of no buts rather than yes ands. Well, basically, because it was all, we recorded 24 hours of audio over the series, which then have to be whittled away down to two and a half. And I'll be honest, I don't think it's profitable. I don't think it's a sensible way to make radio. But I tell you this, it is fun and it'd be good to listen. That was a great plug.

That was really good. In fact, that was the most professional you've been on our podcast at any point. It's the most prepared. From this point on, I mean, it's really going to come off the rails. No, it isn't. I've actually done a bit of prep today. It's been a while since I've been on. We had to release a whole episode after you were on last time.

And apologies and corrections. I love you know your podcast is doing well. It's been good to chart this podcast since the beginning, just in terms of, you know it's going well when someone has a podcast when at three o'clock in the afternoon,

American people start listening to it and going, what? What does he mean? What are any of the words that he's saying in fact the only last episode we had an email which ended with the words p.s what is a tray bake the tray bake guy i went i thought i'd get one free tray bake it's not manifested at all so really because it's all it's ruined our life in terms of being able to communicate about the podcast it's really it's created a lot of background noise of sort of tray bag hiss i'm trying over lawmen discourse i'm not having to go andy andy who

is the proprietor of how to make a tea room who makes the tray bags he's not dropped the ball at all but it's a new year. I've just had a big birthday. I can't be fixated on tray bakes all the time. I need to think about my heart. How... Am I right in thinking we've all had a big birthday? Al, have you had your big

birthday recently? In March. It's coming up in March. The big what? The big dog. And James, what are you now? An old man of the trees now, James? Well, actually, I have a little anecdote to illustrate that. I'm 43 and... Jesus!

Ouch! A Top of the Pops 2 came on from 1980 and we said to our oldest child, this is music from when we were born, and he just cracked up laughing and shouted the other one to come in come and look at this it's for old and he described it as it's for old people who are like this oh oh and the other one went no no no they're not old people like that they're old people like this what was the music it was like 1980 and it was Scar

and people dancing with their elbows up kind of stuff. It's honestly one of the bleakest programs I've ever watched. There can only be about three or four episodes of that show that they can still show, surely. Yes. I played my son music from cool, like, you know, he's getting into rock music, rap music. And I played him a cool song

for when i was little and he looked at me with tears in his eyes and he was like dad how can you think that this is good and he was he was talking about he was talking about lithium by nirvana sorry chris you could have no appreciation but he does keep he's obsessed with the 90s at the minute he's like i was always like in the 90s at the minute. He's like, oh, is that what it was like in the 90s? Yeah, being cool in the 90s. Yes, it is what it was like in the 90s, as a matter of fact, young man. I remember bad fashion, because all the kids now dress in this 90s era. Yeah.

I remember it not looking good in the 90s. No one in our schools looked like that. I remember the 90s as being very great, but I think that's because I lived in Bradford in the middle of the 90s. I wasn't like a young kid with money about town. And it's important to point out, I'm not now. So what have you got for us today, Chris? you got something for us well yeah i've got a couple

of things first off i thought i've got a tale but before we did that t-a-l-e yeah yeah it's it's you know i grew up next to a chemicals plant in bradford we all we all had them to like mark my middle age i've decided to get into hobbies and such. And I've basically been reading a book about the middle ages. So I thought, we're going to be taking a trip through time today. So I thought, rather than me just telling all these facts that I researched to you, what if I showed you by taking you on a trip through time? Yes, that's amazing james just

fyi this is going to involve a lot of sound design from your side but i think that's fine so i think if we start so guys i'd like you just cue it in and then the the listener can um imagine it in their heads so i think what we want to do now is if we all close his eyes, are they closed? Yeah, yeah, yeah, closed. And then what's that? Can you hear that? Lute's music's playing. Do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do. Like that. It's just playing. What's that? I don't hear it.

That doesn't sound like it's in the top 40. And then we're going through time together as a trio. We're going through. Are our eyes still closed? Our eyes are still closed. We're going through the past. You're not looking at your RGB lit computer anymore.

You're going back into time where if you said to somebody a time when if you just said I'll turn the electricity on they would say what? Do you know what I mean? They wouldn't know

what you're talking about. It's a time when the streets were mud and stuff like that. That's right. Hold on. I've just opened my eyes. You've both got your eyes open.

Well, I've got a little. I had my eyes closed for that entire time, and you were just doing radio eyes. I had one eye open. Don't put this. It always sleeps with one eye open, doesn't it? So now we're in a medieval tavern. So, James, at this point, if you could get, like,

there's a pig pen probably in the pub get some noises some pigs going on yeah yeah yeah there's uh there's like some people some brigands playing cards yeah yeah i know that's an ace of hearts like that just put that in. And now this is actually us in. I'm the landlord. We're at the pub. This is a tavern. Welcome to the suckling bull. Welcome. Don't they speak where you're from?

Strange clothes you're wearing. Thanks. They're from the 90s. Good morrow. Yeah. Welcome to my establishment. It is a fine place. Yeah.

Everything. Oh, everything. Oh, you two look good by candlelight, which is the only light we know. Thank you for mentioning that. After official light, we do have the sun. We have the sun. Oh, what are you looking at over there, big one? Big giant one.

Are you looking at the liching? Yes, hello. You don't just do your normal voice, your normal giant voice. Are you looking at the... You're not any bigger than normal, James. You're the normal amount of James. Are you...

Hello. Are you looking at the litching? Oh, yeah, it's a lot more colourful to outsiders who travelled for the long, distant future because there's many different types of litching that will probably die out when mass industrialisation takes over. That's interesting, isn't it? Oh, excuse me, lovely lady.

Is that me? Is that me? It's just your delicate cheekbones and the sleeves you're wearing. Although they've all the long, long sleeves and pointy, pointy shoes, they're all the raging Europe. But over here, it's still a bit sort of nonsense that we'd say. What would you both like to drink? How many ales or meads will one groat get me? I'll get you half a mead and two pints.

And Al, just bear in mind, this is a long, long way before just having half a little thimble of vermouth once a year on New Year's Eve has been invented. So you'll have to have a pint. Do I have to have beer? Because I normally have water. You can have it, ladies. You can't drink the water. You want to die of dysentery.

Okay, I'll have a small beer. Session ale. That's fine. He'll have a small, small beer. Yeah, the tiniest available beer. So now do the sound design and then pour in the drinks no no no put it in digits put it in digitally and probably have a jester in the background at this point

welcome it's delicious now you two oh it turns your money, you don't have any money. So now you have to work in the pub. So James, the big one, you could probably work back in the barn in a small holding, helping the bullock into the heifer. Classic pub stuff. And Al, we would probably have to sell you to a fiddly Franciscan abbot or something. All right. Yeah, that sounds fairly name of the rose.

I can live with that. Now, before we do that, take a seat around this table. That's my wife. Don't look at her. She's got a lot going on. It's lock-in time and it's time for me to tell you a tale. And this is the tale of the Very Cold Boy. Oh.

Alright. Is it a cold lad? Is it spelt C-A-U-L-D? Yeah, that era of cold. Ghost lad, very cold. Oh, was he killed by his uncle? Yes, he was killed by his uncle. I think we're in big trouble here. Is it the cold lad of Hilton? Have you heard of

the Radio 4 presenter? And he's also got a TV show, Danny Robbins. No. Well, I shouldn't say it, no. Yeah, I have. I'm his biggest fan. Oh, I know Danny Robbins. Yeah.

He's already come up. He's done a cold. He's done the cold. We've done the cold lad. Danny Robbins, the host of Uncanny. Yes. Yeah, the big Radio 4. He's got a big Radio 4 series

that he successfully turned into a TV series. Well, that's good for... Imagine such a thing. That's good for two, but you make it... Yeah, well, good for him, so he's stolen my idea, has he? Well, how about this? I've got a backup story. I don't listen to this.

I've got a backup. I've got a backup. I've got a backup story. I don't listen to this. I've got a backup. I do. I do. I do. All the time. I've got a backup story. It is.

Have you guys ever heard the tale of the White Lady of Now of Castle? No. No. Actually. I don't think so. It's Now of Castle. This is a true story. This actually happened. You can look it so. It's Noweth Castle. This is a true story. This actually happened.

You can look it up. What's the castle? It's Noweth Castle, up by me. Noweth? Yeah, N-A-W-O-R-T-H. I've got my friend of the show, Britain's Haunted Castles,

by Mark Alexander here. I'll look it up. Mark Alexander of Haunted Inn's fame and that book that you were talking about that time. So let me tell you about an hour of castle. Cumbria, Ardorf,umberland, one of them. There's like close enough. It's an ancient castle that is steeped in history.

So this castle has been on this site since around the 1330s. Yeah. Although the modern castle as it stands today is meant to date back to 1585. The only thing I want to say about that is, did you know about the mass livestock breeding campaign in the 1600s? This was in my medieval book too. Like apparently 1300s, cows and sheep and stuff would have been noticeably smaller

than they are today. Because in the 1600s, there was a breeding campaign to like breed giant farm animals. Is that what happened with James? Yeah. Imagine if they were like... Go back to the 1300s.

Shake shafts were tiny back in those days, scurrying around your ankles like hobbits. You could fit two in your pocket. Just pop in a market, pick up a few shake shafts, come back with them under your arm, like baguettes in Paris. But then there was like a legion of shake shafts and they realised they've got these,

like high aggression, high strength, low intelligence. And they're like, we need to put an end to this bloodline. Have to introduce a fleet of cantrils to thin out the numbers of shake shafts. And like the introduction of the bullfrog to Australia, it has backfired terribly.

Yes, it has. Now very little of Bradford is habitable now. It's riddled. It's absolutely riddled. Do you know what? Stuff about the Middle Ages is just going to keep coming back to me. I'm enjoying this book. I can riddled. It's absolutely riddled. Do you know what? Stuff about the Middle Ages is just going to keep coming back to me. I'm enjoying this book.

I can't remember. It's Ian Mortimer, like a time traveler's guide to 1300s. So it's written as if you as a modern day person are going on holiday in the Middle Ages.

So it's like, oh, where would you eat? Where would you stay? It's fun. And I'm reading textbooks as well, like GCSE textbooks about the Middle Ages. where would you eat? Where would you stay? It's fun. And I'm reading textbooks as well, like GCSE textbooks about the Middle Ages. Quite the fine figure in my local cafe.

This castle, now of castle, it was known as one of the Lions of the North, which is a leading example of a border fortress, you know, to keep the Scots out. All the English in, we don't know. Enough said on that. I live near Scotland now. I don't want to,

I don't want to get brought into it or anything like that. So, if you are listening to this and you're Scottish, well done for figuring out how to use your phone. James, edit that out.

Edit that out. I can't have that. I couldn't even get that insult out. I've started, I've started, I've started, I've started gigging in Scotland, we need to. So the castle and its grounds were held by the Dacre family

until 1577 when it was inherited by Lady Elizabeth Dacre. She was 14 years old, you know, not how we do it these days, but a bit more common back then. And she married Lord William Howard. He was only 15, you know, not how we do it these days, but a bit more comment back then. And she married Lord William Howard. He was only 15. Do you know, like, because you often hear these ye olde nonny nonnies. He was 15.

He was 15. She was 14. He was 15. Oh, I thought you said she was 40. No, no, no. She's 40. So these are like two kids getting married where. They're teenagers, right?

Sorry, I thought a 40-year-old woman married a 15-year-old kid. And you were saying that's fine. But you often hear these stories like, she was, hey, nonny nonny, but 12, and he was six score of a nine or something like that. And you're like, get in the beat. It's like listening to any album from the 1960s. Yeah, yeah.

You have to be like, hey, hey. I just edit the words adult woman into the lyrics as I'm listening to it. I like to think when they sing about a baby that they're actually singing about babies my baby takes the morning train i love that image a little business baby on the way to work yeah a little business baby with an oyster in its nappy just doing the times crossword baby bow bowler hat. Lord William Howard eventually becomes known as Belted Will. Wow, belts must have been a rarity in those days, if it could become your nickname.

I think it was connected to, there was a poem by Sir Walter Scott, known figure in the area, and it goes like this. His Bilboa blade by Marchmen felt, hung in a broad and studded belt. Hence, in rude phrase, the boarded still called Noble Howard

belted will. It does rhyme, but I don't really understand most of the words in it. So has he got a studded belt? What does that mean? A belt with studs on it? Yeah, it sounds strange,

doesn't it? Perhaps. But this tale, that, doesn't it? Perhaps. But this tale, that's like a preamble. That does become important later. But this tale happens years before Belted Wills reign as Scott Smasher, extraordinaire. And it's all about the legend that is credited now of Castle.

And it's about, and I just want to say at the top of this, there are some opinions and attitudes in this story that we, like a content warning, we would not condone or agree with, but we're going to display as factually accurate now

as it were in the time. Cowardly of you, Chris. Cowardly of you. You should crack it up. That's been on Radio 4 for you, isn't it? I've got something to lose. Just bear in mind, these are not my opinions. These came up during my research.

It did happen. This is true. This is history. It's not factual folklore. So Lord Dacre, bit of a lad about town. This is in a time as well before being a lad was illegal. Do you know what I mean? This is like a proper...

This is going to become immediately obvious that he's a proper lad. So Lord Dacre of Noworth had an affair with a beautiful girl who unfortunately was common. She was lowborn. Uh-oh. I don't know why, but apparently for some reason, Lord Dacre forgot to mention his aristocratic background and accidentally told her that he was a peasant and his name was Bogfried.

Unaware of his lofty status, she gladly hopped aboard and quite quickly found herself coming down with a serial case of the prego. So he's also accidentally accidentally in the moment of, you know, like the devil's expulsion, he's promised he would marry her as well. And I think she's a villain, but you know,

like the medieval concept of a villain. I don't really understand what it is, but it's like they work, they live, they like basically belong to the Lords and a man of donor. Like a, is it like a surf? Yeah,

I think so. But you had three men and you had villains and everyone sort of worked for the Lord of the manor. But some people, like, you had to basically get yourself out of servitude, I think. So this is a bad situation. Eventually, he ended up revealing his true identity to her, that he was actually a powerful lord. And so because of that, he obviously couldn't marry a stew-supping labourer.

And besides, he was already betrothed to a woman befitting of his station, who could have been like an Austrian queen called Glenaris Battlefwack IV. Can I just be clear? Did you say could have been and then made up a name? So I can understand why. All of it.

This was the bit of the story where I thought we could do with a bit of somebody so she was heartbroken understandably so she'd been

lied to and she was pregnant and she gave birth to their son who technically would have been

a bastard birth they would have said it bleep it if you want but it's how it would have been and then in despair and anguish she drowned herself in a stream Bastard birth, they would have said it, bleep it if you want, but it's how it would have been.

And then in despair and anguish, she drowned herself in a stream by the castle. He didn't know about this, did he? So the next morning, the Lord Dacre took his new wife, as we can all remember, is the Austrian Queen Glenaris Basil Flack the Pope. Yeah, it could have been. So they went out to, he went out and said, I'm just going to show you around, show you my ends. This is the stream.

Oh, what's that? There's a dead girl in it. They also find her mother, who's been out looking for her all night, and she didn't come home. And seeing the Lord with his new German wife, Austrian. There is a difference. His Austrian wife, Glenaris. So he's king of Austria now.

But if you start prodding holes in everything that's there, pretty soon we're wasting everybody's time. The mother blames Lord Dacre, somewhat unfairly in my opinion. The mother as well is like, looks, you know, wearing a shawl, warts, milky, dead eye, black teeth. And Lord Dacre's probably thinking, dodged a bullet there. Blaming Lord Dacre for the death of a daughter, the mother cried out a curse. Oh, cursed be the cruel hand that wrought this hour to me. May evil grim I follow him until the day he D.

D is spelt D-double-A. You know, I think they're trying to get at, but... Is this in the local dialect? Yeah, so it'd be like, I'm not going to do the accent. Oh, you're reigning it in for this one. My son's got the accent, do you know what I mean? And he's always like, he started turning to, he sounded like a Geordie to me,

but it's like a little Cumbrian, Northumberland style. He's like, oh, dad, just says man all the time. Oh, man, literally, says that, and I was like, fair enough. Good luck to you, kid. Like a little Anton Deck. Like a little Anton Deck, yeah. There are a number of our listeners that are still convinced that Anton Deck is one person called Anton Deck.

Yeah, yeah, he's a judge on Strictly. He's an Austrian king. So Lord Dacre don't care, do you know what I mean? Some old crone lady shouting stuff at him in the street. I'm guessing if you're an aristocratic lord around that time, you're not bothered. So he texts his new wife off. He said, I'm going to show you the cuisine.

Texts her to equivalent ye olde pizza express. Didn't think of it, but before he could finish his merry old dough balls, dead. Oh, really? That quickly? Yeah, thereabouts. It's quite vague about years and timelines.

Like, if it's really quick after, that's a bit of drama there, isn't it? So, three years after he died, 1577, as well, this is the only time in the account where a date comes in and you're like, oh, so you can backwards engineer it from there.

How strange that you leave the dates out until that point. Anyway, years after he died, 1577, three years, his only legitimate male heir died. Little boy falling off his rocking horse, which is as brutal as it is kind of funny. Yeah, it's one of those ones where if you've had children, obviously that's horrible. But if, like me, you're childless, it's one of those ones where if you've had children, obviously that's horrible. But if, like me, you're childless, it's quite amusing.

To be thrown by a rocking horse. Yeah. It's like when the kid comes off the horse in Gone With the Wind. Have you seen that? No, I've not. It's the funniest scene in cinema history. It's the funniest scene in cinema history. Kid straight off a horse.

Woo! Incredible. Incredibly hilarious. Is it like when that snake bit that man on telly that time? Is it one of them? I don't know what you mean. One of them fail videos that happened in the 90s. Oh, when they slipped on the poo,

when they slipped on the elephant poo on Blue Peter. I think that's the family hole somewhere. Or the woman's treading grapes and she falls out the barrel. That actually looked like it really hurt. After that, the male line died out and this is why the castle ends up belonging to who do you remember from earlier on billy big pants billy big pants belted belted will belted will and i don't know why but i've just got a feeling it wasn't very nice but other than that and that and that's it that's and then oh no, there's more than this, which I forgot to write down. From that point on, a figure in white can be seen on the mart,

especially by people. They're the castle that are like, not long for this world. What do you think about that? Ooh, a harbinger of doom. Yeah, like a sort of, is it a banshee type thing? You don't get that with a little ghost call boy, do you? No. So guys, let me put a full stop in it.

That is the tale of the White Lady of Noworth Castle. That's very good. Yeah. I've gone to town on this one. I don't mean to sound so surprised, but that was really researched. Well done. It's the first time, it's the first time I've ever looked. If I'm totally honest with you, and I respect you both,

and I respect the podcast and the fans so much, it's the first time I've ever looked at one of the stories before doing the physical recording. An hour earlier, I read it, and I think it's like, wow, is this it? It really makes a difference, doesn't it? I mean, yeah, there's a bit I had to sort of judge it up a bit. I think I could tell the points when you judged it i think it was you know i smashed a few bought the foot but put in a bit of third act drama and stuff like that created a love

interest with glenaris battle thwack the fourth of austria i don't think austria existed until the 1800s but i didn't say she was the queen of Austria. There was another Austria. Where do you think Austria that we know got its name from? You didn't think everything through, did you? True, true. It meant Eastern Realm from the old

High German. So, yeah, fair enough. There was an Austria. One nil Cantrell. Well, I'm very impressed. Yeah, me too. Yeah, I'm very, very impressed. What can I say? Lovely story. Well told.

Do I need to rate it now? Yeah, of course we have to do scores. Do you think you're above the scoring system now, Chris? I've poked my podcast. I've poked, do you know what I mean? I'm exhausted. I've done all this. You've had your meal and now it's time for your pudding.

The scores. Can we leave the inn though? Or are we going to stay in the inn for the scores? Okay, we can leave the inn, but we have to stand in the furrow fair. The noisy furrow fair. Did you know back then as well that everyone just throwing stuff out into the street? Basically, it's like the streets would be all trodden. On a hot day, if it was humid, if it was wet,

there's basically like the mud is full of, you know, like gizzards from shopping. Gizzards from shopping? Actually, I said, I don't know. Shopping, okay, all right. But basically, it's like, when it was a hot day, when it was wet, basically the street would be churned up and it'd smell apparently unlike anything that we can imagine. So we're in a noisy

and noisome thoroughfare for the can i tell you another thing that's just popped into my memory as well basically in old and medieval society get your head around this all three of us would be old not just me not just james basically because everyone there was like loads of people that died off during the black Death and stuff like that. But in general, because of health things, society was much younger. So basically, you're a 25 year old, you're basically like an important figure

in your society. So 40 is ancient, nearly dead. 20, 25, the place is run by 20 and 25 year olds, which is why it's like, there's quite a lot of, it's a very violent society. It'd be like, like vice.com,

but as a society. Yeah. It sounds wicked, doesn't it? But, but if we were in the films of the 1950s, we'd be basically teenagers. We'd be like,

Cary Grant was still playing young men until he was about 60. I think I could pass as a young man if that young man had some very rare genetic thing going on, you know. Like Robin Williams in Jack. Marlon Wayans in Little Man. Let's get it scored, I reckon. Okay, what's your first category? Let's go with naming, first of all,

because you did a bit of work on the names, and that should hopefully stand us in good stead. There's Griselda Poppingjay, the ninth, whatever she was called. There's that, that's a good name. Glameris Battlethwack IV. Yes, her as well, yeah. But it's not just that.

There's Lord Dacre. Yep. Good name. It's a bit like Dark, isn't it? But it's Dacre, so it's it but it's dacre so it's like it's just a little bit more subtle than just calling him lord dark there's belted will yeah willy belts yes i just would like to bring up i've got my magic book of britain's haunted castles um there was ranulf de dacre in 1336 he was the earl Cumberland. He was actually granted the licence to crannulate his home.

Oh, wow. His surname is the basis for the noise when you switch Netflix on. Other names got about it well, so we got Bogfried. Do you remember Bogfried? Not sure that's in my version of the story. Do you remember Bogfried? The peasant was his altar. Bogfried.

That's a cool name. And I'm aware of this now. The only person that hasn't got a name in his story is the lowborn common girl. Oh. Yeah, that's not good luck, is it? So let's christen her now Fanny Llewellyn. I don't think any names that are invented

during the scoring section are valid for scores. Or respectful to the dead. Yeah, yeah. Even without that basic human dignity. A raft of names there. No, I think it's a four out of five, I think, just for Belted Will. Yes, Belted Will. He had a Bilbao blade, a Bilbao blade.

That's not how Chris pronounced that earlier. So that's going to make the editing interesting. If that's the word Chris was saying, because I think you said Balboa, as in Rocky. I said Balboa as in Rocky. As in Rocky Balboa. Oh, well, you just dubbed me over him. Yeah, yeah, that'll be fine. What's the second category?

My second category is the supernatural. Yes. So I'd like to, there's two big instances here. One, we've got a cursing, a hex is delivered upon an aristocrat. And many years after, we've got a ghost that still appears as a fact in the area to people that are going to die. That's very good. That's pretty spooky.

I mean, it's not Danny Robbins quality uncanny. It's not. It's not infrasound. It's sub Robbins, I would say. But it is somewhat supernatural. So I'm hovering around a two. That feels mean.

James? Yeah, what else have we got, though? You've got two spooky things, a curse and a ghost. That's great. I'm going back into it. Let me see. The sound of frantic Word document scrolling. Under your voting criteria, you're only one star per spooky thing.

Well, that's the one I've chosen today. Yeah, that's the system I'm using. Okay, well, what I didn't tell you is there's a crow with a skull for a head. So that's three stars. Okay. Well, what I didn't tell you is there's a crow with a skull for head. So that's three stars. What's his name? And there's a little boy and the little boy on the rocking chair. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

The one, the rocking horse. That was quite spooky. Maybe the, um, maybe the little rocking horse did sort of become alive for a second. Yeah. Maybe it blinked his eyes.

Yeah. Hmm. That's quite good. All right. It's a three. It's a second. Yeah, maybe it blinked its eyes. Yeah. Flicked its mane. That's quite good. All right, it's a three. It's a three. You've talked me up to three with a spooky... A rocking horse is very spooky.

A spooky rocking horse that will chuck you off. The spookiest type of horse. No, a Maddy Llewod is the spookiest type of horse. I've got another criteria. Category. Yeah, we call them categories.

We call them categories for 200 episodes. 200 episodes and it still sounds like this no um so my next category is poems one for you al nicely okay yes well there was that one about rocky bilboa so walter scott okay yes the so walter scott and then the other poem. And what was the other poem? It was the curse poem. The curse. Oh, curse, be the cruel hand.

And for that one, when I did the first poem, my confidence wasn't really there, but the second one, I really sort of belted it out. I put a little voice in and stuff. As an audition piece, that was really good for Crone 1. The problem is, Chris, if you listen to the show, you'd realise the trap you have wandered into. The category is poems, and how many poems are there?

No, no, sorry. The quality of poems, that's the category. What we should have done, we should have gone with couplets, because there's at least four rhyming couplets in this. But what if I said to you that if you don't give me a good score, I'm just going to delete the recording and not be part of it anymore? All right, it's five out of five. Yeah, well done.

Five out of five all the way. All the way. Five out of five. Next category. Good that we're all being strong-armed like this. We're finally on the same page. Final category. Completely unnecessary and definitely not requested.

Preamble in a medieval tavern. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a strong five for a completely unnecessary and not requested preamble in a medieval tavern. Congratulations, Chris. Thank you, Thank you. Thank you. This is the highest score

I've ever had on this show. It's somewhat higher than it should have been. But now, as anybody knows, I know that you respond, you cave under pressure. So I'll be back. To not have negotiated.

I'll be back and next time I'll make James cry. Well, thank you very much for elbowing your way onto the podcast, Chris. Good luck with the series. I just want to say, if this is actually the 200th episode, well done, boys. What a milestone. You've really taken this from, not nowhere,

but I've known you both for a long time. I've been chatting the progress and you've both done so well. And I'm very proud of you. And thank you for having me on. Uh, it's just blindsided you with a sentiment, but it's a hell of an achievement. Well,

I suppose, um, I'm going to have to go back to my job at this inn now, which is, yeah, yeah, yeah. We haven't traveled back to the present day.

So we still, I know, I know living in, which is... Yeah, yeah, yeah. We haven't travelled back to the present day, so we still are in the past. I now live in an inn inseminating, not personally, but facilitating the insemination of livestock. Assistant to the bull.

And Al is, can you wear the cartwheel? Kick, kick, kick, kick, like through the mud away and off to the Fiddley for Franciscan Abbots, like Tower, where it'll be kept as a beautiful prize.

Is there anything that we could pop in our MP3 players that we've smuggled into the past before the batteries die? Is there anything we could listen to on that over the next week or so? I'm just saying, plug your show. Oh, right. I was going to say, you know that really mean Dire Straits, you know that really, really horrible Dire Straits song, Money for Nothing. But not that.

That's not what we said. So, guys, two things. First off, again, wow, what a great time we've had. And if that wasn't for you, that's all right. There's 200 episodes to get into. I'm sure Jenny Collier will be back soon. So, two things first off one play icklewick fm it's coming out it's 11 o'clock on the 23rd tuesday 23rd

of january it's like a really crazy wild thing and it's gonna be when if you can't if you don't want to stay up to 11 o'clock on a tuesday night i get it i got i got a small child it'll be like hey what's that eight o'clock in the morning it's on get it. I got, I got a small child. It'll be like, Hey, what's that? Eight o'clock in the morning. It's on BBC sounds. Yeah. See, do you know what I mean?

The BBC sounds app. It's a good app. It's, it's, it's a great work. It works. This is putting money in the pockets of everybody on this podcast. Um,

but we're doing that also. I'm doing one other thing, but it's not quite ready yet, but I'll just say it now in February, I'm launching my own podcast. Yeah, exactly. We'd be, i'd be working my own podcast with sunil patel who's a comedian i went for deputy law person yes deputy law person and it's called rural concerns and it's all about how i have in 2020 it seemed like such a good idea to move to the countryside but now i'm trapped in a rural exile.

And every week, Sunil's going to call me up from the mega city of London to tell me what cool plays everybody's watching and what new style of coffee that they are. We're going well. It took a long time to come up with the title, so much so that the producer had to call me to give me an intervention to tell me because i was just thinking of podcast names i couldn't stop when i ruined a family weekend but and it's going well apart from um apart from the only it means that it'll get on so well but the only problem

is we've hired a producer for the show who's seems like he seemed like a good guy. He's got a podcast that's got over 200 episodes. And if you add up all the listenership, it makes one really, really good podcast listen. Anyway... 200 listeners. And I thought we were doing a good thing because he was a giant, but it turns out he's a big personality.

I've done two plugs there. That's enough. I need to go. All right, he's off. Chris is already bailing on the recording. He's just running out of the inn. That's enough. I need to go. All right. He's got, he's off. Chris is already bailing on the recording. He's just running out of the inn. He was never the innkeeper at all.

It doesn't work here. Wait a minute. This isn't a ye olde inn. Just to be clear, because I'm not, I think that was a bit subtle. James, you were the producer of Chris's new podcast.

I was. I was. And I was the guy that talked him down from that. Well, I think one of the ones was Two Boys Chatting Time was one of the titles. Thanks, Chris. Thanks, Chris. Thank you, boys.

I'm still here, but I'm under the table at the tavern now. So, yeah, no change there with Chris. Yeah, no change. He's the same old, same old Chris. Well, you have been listening to Lawmen with me, Alistair Beckett-King. Me, James Shakeshaft. Guest, Deputy Lawperson, Chris Cantrell. And... It was audio edited by Joseph Burrows.

Thank you, Joseph. Really, thank you, especially for this episode. Because I could not have listened to Chris again. Join us at patreon.com forward slash lawmenpod or bonus bits and behind the scenes. Imagine. If you haven't had enough cantrip, get on the Patreon and listen to more.

Lots of bits where he starts talking and says something unacceptable. I said, no, edit that out, no. There was a poem by Sir Walter Scott, known figure in the area, and it goes like this. Bilbao Blade. By March Menfelt, hung in a broad and studded belt. It does rhyme,

but I don't really understand most of the words in it.