Loremen Podcast - Xmas Pig 2024 with Jenny Collier!

Episode Date: December 25, 2024

Would you have another slice of Xmas Pig? You would! Well, today's stocking filler features our Welsh correspondent Jenny Collier, so you are in luck! Look forward to some peculiar pig-based folklore, and a bit of chat about Disney's 1980s "Dark Phase". We're talking about The Black Cauldron! This episode was edited by Joseph Burrows - Audio Editor. LoreBoys nether say die! Support the Loremen here (and get stuff): patreon.com/loremenpod ko-fi.com/loremen Check the sweet, sweet merch here... https://www.teepublic.com/stores/loremen-podcast?ref_id=24631 @loremenpod youtube.com/loremenpodcast www.instagram.com/loremenpod www.facebook.com/loremenpod Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. You're riding the Riff train to Mirth town, James, are you? Yeah, I thought we'd better put this recorder on if I'm going to be... Yeah. Cause we've been waiting at the Riff Station for quite a while.

I'm sorry. This is a Riff Replacement Service. Oh no. It is going to be taking a lot of deviations and no, there's no room for your bike. But Alistair, I shouldn't be saying this at a full loudness voice. I should be doing a special. We've got a deputy guest law person whisperer.

That's a very familiar whisper. We've got a guest deputy law person today. Will it be Welsh correspondent Jenny Collier, James? It is. It's Welsh deputy law person Jenny Collier. Welcome to Christmas Pig. Yay. Hello. Thanks for having me. But yeah, I don't want to be little Johnny Calendars, but it's not Valentine's Day. It's Christmas Pig Month. Yeah, yes it is.

The equally respected festival. Yeah, equally well known. We were supposed to have Jenny on for last year's Christmas Pig, but I was struck down with the, at that point, novel coronavirus. I thought you got struck down by getting to book Danny Robbins instead. James, you didn't bump Jenny, but Danny. I don't think I did. I don't think you would have done that. But I think it did just so happen. It might really look like that's what happened, but I don't think that's what happened. It might have looked exactly like that would happen, but I also did have a cold at the same time. Sure, sure. I'm sorry to hear that.

Sure. And you don't know my cold because it goes to a different school. But welcome this year, Jenny. Welcome. Seasons oinkings, Jenny. We've never really found a single phrase that goes well with Christmas Pig. If you think of one, it's a bit late. Season's Oinkings is about as good as it gets. Jason Vale Yeah, that is very good. Well, we've already pre-recording explained to Jenny what Christmas Pig is and you the listener should know by now. Come on listener. What a Christmas Pig is. I mean, come on. Listen to one of the other Christmas episodes. I'm sure

we explain it in that. Jason We, footnote, that's not a guarantee. We may not explain it. Probably not. But Jenny, we've got a wonderful Welsh Christmas pig. Well, it's not a Christmas pig, is it? It's just a Welsh pig, haven't we? I don't know. Yeah, it's a Welsh pig.

Yes, we've got the pig. Henwen. It's like when Benedict Cumberbatch tries to say penguin. Oh, quickly stop listening to the podcast and Google that. Have you never heard Benedict Cumberbatch trying to say Penguin. Oh, quickly stop listening to the podcast and Google that if you've never heard Benedict Cumberbatch trying to say Penguin. Is it Penguin? It's like hearing a Penguin trying to say Benedict Cumberbatch. That is how bad he is at it. No, it's Henwen. It's like Benedict Cumberbatch wondering when he's going to get a hen. Henwen?

Henwen. But it's actually two Welsh words put together that mean old white. Oh. Which is an Aldi version of aftershave that you can get. And doubles up as a cider. Alistair, do you recognise the name Henwen? It sounds familiar. It does sound familiar and I don't know why. Is it just because it's a Welsh word and I've heard some of them whenever Jenny comes on the podcast? Perhaps in part, but it is the name of the pig in 1985's Disney film, The Black Cauldron. Of course, The Black Cauldron from Disney's L'Errr period. Yes.

When they made films that were good but nobody enjoyed. I bloomin' loved The Black Cauldron. I really did. It was genuinely my favorite at the time, you know, as a sort of six, seven year old kid, grownups would say, what's your favorite Disney? I'd say The Black Cauldron. They'd stop that conversation because they thought I was weird. They were like, this kid's got bad vibes.

Because there's no songs. This six, seven foot tall child is creeping me out. Hello, the black cauldron. Crushing a high chair into splinters. How did you manage to watch it as a child? Because I didn't hear about it until today, and I watched it today, and I researched it today. but I've never heard of it, but it got banned. So how did you manage to see it as a child? It did come out in the cinema and I think that must've been where I saw it. Okay.

And then I reckon, cause that's the thing. The one of the famous things about it was that it was unavailable. You know how did before Disney plus Disney used to like really restrict what films you could buy on video. Now you could get it out of the video shop I think. I think it was available for rentals. Well, I read that it didn't go to VHS until 14 years later.

97. Yeah. So I thought things go straight to VHS if they're bad, but maybe you just go to VHS at an unusual amount of time afterwards if you're bad, so either really quickly or really long. Well, it was, I've also, I used to be friendly with the owners of Georgie's video library, which was the local video shop across the road from me. He wasn't called George.

I never found out who Georgie was. You weren't that friendly. The real friends of the owner knew why it was called that. If you ran a video shop, you got access to a special video shop catalog, and I saw one of these once, and the prices of the videos were like multiple hundreds to a thousand pounds. Wow. Each?

Yeah, per video. Because they were extra strong videos. So they could be watched and rewatched and rewatched. So they could be rewatched and rewatched and so on. And so it was the home video market was a different market to the home video purchase market. So I reckon it must have been out or something. Because I definitely saw it more than once.

Maybe it was just on telly and it got taped. But I was, I was a, you know, a toddler in the world. I didn't understand how things worked. I was one. I think you got your math wrong. I was also one, one years olds when, when this came out. Yeah. I was one years olds because Jenny and I don't know if the listeners know we know we're actually twins. Celebrity twins. That's how I think of us. If we're doing name dropping, James, because you know the guy who ran that video store, I once worked with Sue Sheridan, who plays the little girl. She's the voice of Ailon Wye? Ailon Wye?

Ailon Wye. Ailon Wye. Yeah, because as a voice actor, she's sadly passed away now, but years ago, we made a video game and directed her as one of the voices for one of the characters. Really? Which is that an early cock a lot? Just a classic celebrity fact from celebrity twin, ABK. So one of the reasons that the film got banned or parts of it got banned was because there was a scene of a 12 year old animated child with torn clothes.

Disney. Come on, Disney. of a 12 year old animated child with torn clothes. Disney. Come on, Disney. I mean, there's a grown man duck with no trousers on. Not in this one, all right? That's a different one. James, he's in the Navy. Things are different at sea.

Well, it was, I did do a little reading on it and it was at the time, the most expensive animated film when it came out and it was a massive flop. Everyone, most people apart from me, true, you know, visionaries, like little baby Jimmy Shakes. Enormous baby James Shake, little baby giant Jimmy Jimmy shakes born a black cauldron again lucky this video is made out of extra strong plastic snap it like so much kindling grabs it in enormous fists yeah it did really badly and people thought it was bad, but I really liked it. It still hasn't made back half the money.

It still hasn't even made, yeah, it was 44 mil. I mean, I know this isn't the research I'm meant to be doing for the Welsh fairy tale, but it was meant, it cost 44 mil and it took less than half still to this very day. Wow. I guess if you've made the most expensive film ever made, because every time I hear about a film that was the most expensive film ever made, it was like, and it was a huge flop. I think that might be connected to it being the most expensive one because then it needs to make more money to not be a flop.

Yeah. It needs to make more money than any film ever. So you should have made it less expensively. So you actually watched it today. It's very spooky, isn't it? It's so scary. It's so 80s. At first, I thought I was going to fancy the boy. Taron. He would have been right. He would have been my type in like the nineties, but now it's a large no for me. He's a bit of a douche at points.

Terrifying. I found myself quite like invested and I was like, I couldn't believe it was a kid's film. Go on, go on. I'll say spoiler. No, no spoilers. Like if they, if you don't, if you want to watch it, listen away for approximately five seconds. But the bit where the really annoying koala bear sacrifices itself.

It's proper dead for a bit. Wait, there's koala. How is there a koala in it? It's called gurgly. Gurgly. Gurgy? Are they common in Wales? He's got like a bit of a, he's got a Jar Jar Binks way of talking. Oh no.

I thought he was like Gollum. Or maybe a Gollum-y. Yeah. Or maybe a Jar Jar Binks, but he's very annoying. But he does make the ultimate sacrifice and then for quite a bit before he's brought back nicely at the end. End of spoilers. How will anyone know? He does make the ultimate sacrifice and then for quite a bit before he's brought back nicely at the end. End of spoilers?

How will anyone know? They won't know to tune back in. I love that I said five seconds and then after 15 you're like, and then he's fine. I got 31 seconds when you skip on. But yeah, it's a great film. And there is a pig in that film basically called Henwin, but that is not the same Henwin that we're talking about. So these were written by a guy called Lloyd Alexander.

And there was a whole series of books and the first two were adapted into the Black Cauldron about this lad, Taron. And I looked up Lloyd Alexander, assuming he'd be some Welsh guy. Where do you think he's from? Where's he from? Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh, USA? Pittsburgh, in America.

Whoa. Yeah. he from? Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh, USA. Pittsburgh in America. Whoa. Yeah, he's from Pittsburgh. And he was writing, he just really got into the Mabinogion, started writing books. In 1963, he wrote the novel Time Cat. Oh, that Lloyd Alexander, the author of Time Cat. It's about Jason and his cat Gareth. Oh, a Welsh cat? Is the cat Welsh? No, I don't think so. It sounds like a very Welsh cat, Gareth. Gareth the cat. Gareth the cat.

Gareth. Oh, we're going through time, look you. I'm Gareth the time-travelling cat. I assume. That's a direct quote from the book. The cat says, I assume as well. The cat says, I assume. Yeah. It's weird. So what it is, is about a kid who finds out his cat can travel through time, nine times. And apparently after nine episodes, they return home. Gareth says he will never again speak to Jason. And he forbids Jason ever to mention their travels to anyone. Now I haven't read the book.

I've just read a little sort of synopsis and it just lists the places they go. It doesn't say whatever happens to cause such a horrible rift between these two erstwhile pals. 1963's Time Cat, which just sounds quite cool. But no, that's, that is- Is that also not technically Welsh mythology? That is not Welsh mythology. That is not our Henwin. Our Henwin, old white, was a region. Well, you find stories about her

in the Red Book of Hergest, hey? Hergest. And the White Book of, is that Riddick? Yeah. Is it like a Welsh Chronicles of Riddick? Welsh for Riddick. It's not got Finn Deesyl. It's too fast. He's too furious.

He's Finn Deesyl. Anyway, these are Jenny, these are Welsh triads, aren't they? So yeah, do you want to explain what a triad is in this context? Oh, you should do it because I have got no idea. Okay. Welsh triads, it's a method of storytelling where they tell things in threes. Oh yeah, it was that. Yeah.

And it's often used to make a point. And an example is three things are not easily restrained. The flow of a torrent, the flight of an arrow, the tongue of a fool. Ooh, ouch. I wouldn't want to be a talkative fool at a time like this. So it's the rule of three. It's basically, yeah, your rule of three. So sometimes it's used to make a point, but obviously, because these would have

mostly been told in the oral tradition. Sometimes it was just, they just group three things together so that people would remember them. And Henwen comes from very much that sort of style of triad, because Henwen is just told as part of the three powerful swineherds of the Isle of Britain, which is, I mean, I don't know what the other two things are going on with, but I like the idea of a powerful swineherd.

Yeah, the big three swineherds edition. Swineherds wise. So Jenny, do you wanna fill us in what's going on with Henwen when we meet Henwen? So when we meet Henwen in the film, so you're saying it's a different one to the one in the film. I think it's a different one. I think it's got the same name. What I heard happens to Henwen in the mythology, I don't remember happening in the film, but maybe I've selectively forgotten some of the more harrowing elements.

I don't know which, I thought it was the same pig, but just I didn't know which came first of the film or the written down stuff. And then I was like, well, maybe because it's a fortune teller pig, no relation to fortune teller fish, that it maybe was doing something with the timeline. And I didn't know which came first. birth. Where we meet it in the written down version of things, it was about to give birth, wasn't it? It's a big old white sow that's pregnant. Yeah. And then people of the land of Proudine, AKA Britain, were like, this is really bad news that this pig's going to give birth. Like if it gives birth, that's going to be

bad. Some sort of general prophecy stuff. It would just be while people were going about their business, there would just be like a radio on and it would just sort of say, and the very large pig is due to give birth to its piglets, which is widely meant to be something that will be bad. And you just accept it, you're like, oh, okay, the pig's gonna give birth. And it's gonna be bad. Yeah, it's bad. People are worried about it.

They decided to chase it, chase it away. While pregnant? Oh yeah. Like a big pink Mary from the Bible, like a porcine Virgin Mary. Sorry, big white Mary. Famously white and old. A big old white Virgin Mary. Yeah.

If they chased the Virgin Mary into the ocean. They chased the pig into the ocean. They tried to kill the pig. Off the coast of Cornwall. They chased it to Cornwall. That is the longest distance you could chase it to get to the sea. That's so far away. If you're in Wales, you'd have to go around.

You'd have to go via Bristol. It's gonna take ages. The eggs on their faces. The pig eggs on their faces. Oh, that's horrible. Because the pig turns up again in. Ooh, that's horrible. The pig turns up again in Gwent, which is in Wales, famously. Gwent, like the card game from The Witcher 3.

Dunno, I've not played The Witcher. Oh, right. I'm talking to the wrong people here. But the people listening will be nodding so furiously, their headphones have flung off. It turns up in Gwent and well, what happens Jenny? So the pig does some babies, but well, does some offspring. Sorry. Yeah.

When Alistair said piglets earlier, I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, not piglets. Lower those expectations in a way. Yeah. Well, not piglets. Lower those expectations in a way. Yeah. And it's five different offspring in five different areas of Wales. So in one place, she gives birth to a grain of wheat and a bee.

Oh no. Are you mad? A bee flying there. And a grain of wheat. We've all had sweet corn, haven't we, in our lives? I see where this is going. So what do you call that giving birth? I don't know.

How can you tell as well in presumably it's going to this pig, this big old white pig, it's going to have churned up the ground a bit. How are you going to find a grain of wheat in all of that? A single grain. I was imagining an ear or something, a stalk, just a grain of wheat and a bee. A grain of wheat and a bee. That was it. I heard that was in Gwent.

And when it was there, it was like, oh, they were like, oh, that means wheat is going to be good in this area. And then she went somewhere else and gave birth to a grain of- Anything on the bees? Or was it just- Oh, that it would be good for bees. Just good for like harvest stuff, maybe. And then in the next place, grain of barley. And another bee! Get your bees out all in the same place. That's my advice.

Especially when you're birthing bees. Yeah, get them all out. Just to go back, I heard some reports said it was a grain of barley and a bee, some wheat, and a piglet. wheat and a piglet. Oh, a piglet. I don't know why I'm surprised. Unexpected piglet. Oh, I didn't get a piglet. Cloning in Pembroke or De Fed.

I liked you coming in like a 1930s reporter with a little car that says press in your hat to be like, some reports have claimed that a piglet was born. Is that true? Do you have any comment on the alleged pig? We're getting news there's a grain of barley. Yeah, just like, I don't care that it gave birth to two bees. Did it give birth to a pig? And then I've got Hlaen in Arfon? Yeah, Hlaen, I think. But you're not far off. Arfon, yeah.

What did it give birth to there? the crew it sets and a Lego? No, this time it was animals, but it was a wolf cub and an eaglet. Oh, brilliant. Oh, I had that as Snowdonia. I had that located at Snowdonia. Oh yeah. Yeah. Error-y.

But at Hlen in Arfon, all it was just a grain of rye. And how it's written here is grain- is great and oh right like fillet fish. I'm not like it's brand name gives me meaning to the phrase trying for a baby doesn't it sounds like you'll be quite trying for the big frankly walking and those bees and i'm coming out quietly so. I'm not the best place to go to different places to but that was what it was pregnant with the whole time. My dog used to, when she was doing a watch. That must have been a bit like how Henwen felt. Well, we've only done four so far, haven't we?

The final birth. Small world. It's a kitten. Yeah. It is a kitten. It was on black, under the black rock. All right. In the clan fair in our phone. I have to say when I was watching the black cauldron, I was like, I don't know how they're going to film giving birth to a grain.

Were there even any bees in it? And no one knew where they came from. They would have to do it like in Lord of the Rings, where Galadriel gives three strands of hair or something to Gimli and you can't really film someone doing that. So they just have Gimli relate afterwards in a boat what his gift was. She gave me three grains of hair, strands of hair. So you just do it like that. You just get Jonathan Rhys Davis and then a bee came out. Yeah. But that, I mean, even that would have been a bit out of place. I mean, although it was dark, it would have been quite even darker to be like, and then the pig bore down and squatted out a

grain of barley. Yeah. But could Jonathan Rhys-Davies have pulled that off, I think? Probably. And it definitely wasn't from the soil just happened to have barley in it. No, I saw it come right out. Right out of the middle hole. And also a bee. I knew you would ask, so I made sure. It was quite scary and the pig tried to run away from its own bum because of the bee. So maybe that's what it was doing as it crossed the whole of Wales, just trying to run away from its own bum.

Yeah. Yeah. But yes, but that final offspring, the kitten, is Cath Palug. Yeah. Cath Palug. Palug, I think. It Palug. Which is a small black cat that turns into a monster.

A monstrous cat. Wow. A monstrous cat, yeah. It's exactly like my sister's cat. Yes. It's usually found in the water. It got cast into the Menai Strait. I thought they threw it into the Menai Strait, but then it got caught by sons of Palig.

Did you already say that? And then the eagle and the wolf got adopted by eminent men, but it only brought them bad news but it doesn't say what. So these animals all went on to become famous animals, like nepo baby animals in Welsh mythology. And grains of rye. And grains of rye, yeah. And famous grain-o-rye. That's probably the rye from the Queen song Seven Seas of Rye.

I was thinking that. Because it's probably got a blue hyperlink in his Wikipedia page. You're like, oh, right, famous Rye, is it? And the bee went on to be Beyonce. And the other bee was the bee out of Johnny B. Goode. So yes, you're right, they're very famous. But yeah, this cat goes on, has all sorts of adventures, crops up in Arthurian legends. It's one of the three plagues.

Yeah, it's one of the three plagues. Ogier the Dane, Ogier the Dane fought it. And yeah, loads of Arthur stuff. We'll do, we'll, we'll come onto that another time. I think we should revisit that. And you know, that story that we've just discussed, that was just based on a real story. It was based on a true story, except instead of a pig, it was a female religious leader. So that's respectful. So that actually happened. A woman traveled around Wales, giving birth to small animals. I don't know about the bees.

giving birth to small animals. I don't know about the bees. Yeah, I don't know what it's an allegorical tale. Does that mean it's based based on that? Because Arthur harried her around the island of Prodine. But yes, the original one was meant to be an allegory allegory allegory allegory allegorical tale for for a religious leader being bullied basically in the past. So we were supposed to be sympathizing with the pig, which we were really. A little bit, yeah. We did have a little.

Maybe we smiled a little bit around the bee area. Some of the bee births. Wait a minute. Do you have anything to promote at the moment? I don't know if this is something that you want to promote. I'm doing a trek in Matagonia next year, which is, you know, it's got like Welsh settlements in, Patagonia is pronounced Matagonia in Welsh. And you both did it perfectly in the sense. Because it sounds like they're sort of thinking about it slightly judgmentally, like, it's not Welsh though, is it? Like you're trying to get under a burp. And I'm doing it for a Welsh cancer charity. And

so I'm raising funds for that and I've signed up to do it and it's a very large goal. Wow. But I don't know if that's something that I'm allowed to plug on here. Yeah, yeah, that sounds very good. Thanks. Nice one. Cheers. But yeah, Christmas pig. So Christmas pig everyone. Christmas pig to you Jenny. Christmas pig to you as well.