Maintenance Phase - Oprah v. Beef Part 2: Apocalypse Cow

Episode Date: May 23, 2023

The closing argument of our two-part Oprahsode starts in a Texas courtroom, wanders through some British slaughterhouses and ends with an emu.  Support us:Hear bonus episodes on PatreonDonate on PayPalGet Maintenance Phase T-shirts, stickers and moreBuy Aubrey's bookListen to Mike's other podcastLinks!"How the Cows Turned Mad" by Maxime Schwartz“Deadly Feasts” by Richard Rhodes "Mad Cow USA"UK Parliamentary inquiryHow The West Was Won OverTexas Cattle Feeders v. Oprah Winfrey: The First Major Test of the “Veggie Libel Law”Having a Cow: Reactions To "Veggie Libel" Laws and the Oprah TrialsThe Unconstitutionality Of Iowa's Proposed Agricultural Food Products Act And Similar Veggie Libel LawsAppealOriginal LawsuitFood Safety Vs. Promotion Of Industry: Can The USDA Protect Americans From Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy?Apocalypse CowHarvard Risk Assessment of Bovine Spongiform EncephalopathyMad Cow congressional hearingGAO reportThe Harvard Risk AssessmentThanks to Doctor Dreamchip for our lovely theme song!Support the show

Hi everybody and welcome to maintenance phase where you get a lawsuit, you get a lawsuit, everybody gets a lawsuit. That's very good, Aubrey. Thank you also for not doing the voice. Oh, you're welcome. Those are long term choice. You are Michael Hobbs. You are Aubrey. Thank you also for not doing the voice. Oh, you're welcome. Those are long term choice. Uh, you are Michael Hobbs. You are, Aubrey Gordon.

And today, Michael, we are taking up the thrilling conclusion of our story about Oprah V. The Catalyst Association. Is that right? Oprah versus beef. Yes. Uh, so where are we diving in? Well, why don't you do a little previously on Aubrey because it's it hasn't been that long for us, but for listeners. It's been two weeks. So

When last we left Oprah She had aired an episode about mad cow disease And she had said things like, this is freak me out enough that I'm not gonna eat another burger again. And these cattle ranchers argued that this took a, this led to a massive hit in their sales. Yes. So they sued her under Texas's AgGag Law.

Sir, Lohan's lander. She and her team decided that it was important to take it seriously so that she didn't get hit with wave after wave of lawsuit. And as part of taking it seriously, she hired a jury consultant named Dr. Phil. Mr. Dr. Reverend Phil. Yes. Great. The third. So a little bit of timeline, March of 1996 is when Britain reports the first human cases of mad cow disease. April of 1996 is when Oprah does her fateful dangerous foods episode. May of 1996 is when the cattleman sue her for the baffling sum of $12 million. Throughout the course of 1996, they're doing,

you know, it's like pre-trial stuff, they're like the motion to do this and the motion to do that and they're like arguing over like technical stuff. So it's not until January of 1998 that the trial actually starts. It's wild how goddamn long. It's weird, I know. Trials and the legal system take,

like I absolutely remember this from organizing days when people would be like, we just need to take it to the Supreme Court. And they'll overturn the whole thing, and I'm like, cool, hang out for like a decade. I actually remember this growing up. Do you remember growing up that Oprah actually filmed her show in Texas for six weeks?

No, I don't remember this. So this is one of the weirdest footnotes to the story that Oprah was under contract to produce a certain number of shows per year. So she couldn't just take time off and go beyond trial in Texas. So they rented out the largest theater in Amarillo, Texas and did her show there.

So every day for six weeks, she would be in trial, like in a courtroom all day, and then at night, she would go straight to the theater and film an episode of Oprah. God. And it was really weird because the judge imposed a gag order. Oprah was not allowed to say anything, even like tangentially related to any of the issues

that came up in the trial. And like she constantly made jokes about this on TV. She's like, you're gonna tell a talk show host not to say anything, like this kind of became a running joke. So there's these genuinely pretty funny and charming clips of her interviewing celebrities. There's one where she's talking to Patrick Swayze

and he's telling some story and he's like, I was driving around, I ate a hamburger and then Oprah sort of leans into the microphone and she's like, I was driving around, I ate a hamburger, and then Oprah sort of like leans into the microphone, and she's like, I have no opinion about hamburgers. I have none, no thoughts in my brain about beef. Sure, this is the J Lennon Conan O'Brien of its day. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like no one's saying anything,

but everything's kind of about it. Right. Also, I just looked up the population of Emeril O' Texas in 1998 was 170,000 people. Yeah, it's a very small city. It's a small city and Oprah is in it in 1998 at the height of her powers. It's also very ironic because the lawyers for the cattlemen deliberately chose Amarillo as a venue to fuck over Oprah, right? Because this is a town

who's almost their entire economy depends on beef. The largest employer is a slaughterhouse. 25% of the country's cattle is produced like in this region. And Amarillo is kind of like a hub for the entire industry. So like the population of people there

and like the jury pool is all super pro beef. So it's actually pretty fucked up. But it also speaks to Oprah's power because she's so popular and her popularity transcends all kinds of lines of race and ethnicity and age and class that she goes down there and pretty soon there's a line around the block starting at 4am to get tickets to her show.

And she becomes this really celebrated figure. So apparently there's this like, dueling battle of bumper stickers that people will have bumper stickers on their car that are like, Amarillo hearts Oprah. And then people are also putting bumper stickers on their car that say, the only mad cow in Amarillo is Oprah. Holy shit! Who getting into some deeper topics there?

Uh, calling a bloke on a Mad Cow. Uh, it does look great. God! It does appear to be the case that overwhelmingly, like public opinion, eventually swung toward Oprah over the course of the six weeks. This is like when a celebrity shows up in Portland, Oregon, and everyone loses their minds. It's like when people from Seattle pretend that Tom Skerritt is a celebrity.

Tom Skerritt lives here like one of those. You're not in Seattle. It's fine. We used to have the ever clear guy. Yeah. I also want to read some of the either great or terrible headlines coming out of this trial, depending on your perspective, that this, as we discussed last episode, this is like the height of bad dad puns. So there's of course, cattlemen have cow overopreshow. Classic.

Is there a move over? No, this is the one I wanted to do. This is the one I feel like they're leaving it on the table. Really, you got to have a move one. Cattlemen have bad mood evations in suit. You're in Oprah. Love it. There's all of them.

So Oprah, Cattlemen, lock horns. Good. Texas jury hears meaty libel case. Oh, oh, oh, oh. I feel like maybe the best one I saw is it just says a lot at stake. And it's STDK, which is pretty good. That's really, I enjoyed the stake. There's an editorial in the Tennessee in that says beef against Oprah is a case of baloney. Which, I don't know, baloney isn't like made of beef, I don't think, so I don't know

that works literally. Who knowsna isn't like made of beef, I don't think, so I don't know if it works literally. Who knows what Bologna's made of. And then the best academic article about this, I saw it was called Apocalypse Cow. Yeah. Ha ha ha ha ha. Also quite good. God, that would be great anywhere,

but especially in an academic, I love it when academics are like, fuck it, I'm going in. And then I am also going to send you one of the richest fucking texts I've ever seen. This is from the Kitty Kelly biography of Oprah. If it wasn't you, we wouldn't be talking about this. But I think that this is gonna make you melt down. You're like maybe the only person who when you say,

I'm gonna send you something and it's gonna make you melt down, I'm like, ooooh! Yeah, like, woo, going in. Let's go! Uh, okay. The female judge refused to allow women to wear pants in her courtroom, so Oprah wore a skirt every day. 1996.

It's not, it's not 1951, it's 1996. Quote, I love the fact that no cameras were allowed in the courtroom, she said. Those artist renderings made me look skinny. Even with her trainer and chef in tow, she still battled her weight, at least for the first few days. Then she said she gave herself over to, quote, Jesus and the comfort of pie.

That's the title of my memoir by the name. She gained 22 pounds during the six week trial. Quote, my trainer, Bob Green, was very upset with me. He said, it's like you gained it and you're very proud of it. I'd say, yes, I ate pie, I ate pie. And we had macaroni and cheese with seven different cheeses. Her co-defendant, Howard Lyman, a cattle rancher turned vegetarian, was not allowed to mention weight or food to her.

Quote, her attorneys told me I couldn't talk to her about her diet during the trial. They felt she was under enough pressure. What are your thoughts? What kind of fucking Gremlin? I know. Is like, oh, Oprah Winfrey, here's my chance to tell this lady about diets. It's very clear from what Oprah says about this later, that like this is a huge source of anxiety for her.

This is the first time she had been sued in this way. I think she was kind of waking up to the fact of like how big of a deal she was and the fact that she was now going to become a target for these kinds of lawsuits. And it appears that she was very nervous about losing. Yeah. Because she's a public figure and a woman and a black woman, she has this extra layer of anxiety on top of it of like, oh my God, what if I gain weight?

Yeah, totally. Which is just such a fucking weird thing to throw in there. And also the fact that she did gain weight and it ends up in her fucking biography. Yeah, it's just wild to me how much that has become, like sometimes by her own sort of bringing it up, sometimes not. How much that has become just a baked in part of her story, right? Right. That like people are currently pretty incapable of talking about Oprah without talking about her body. Yeah. I feel similarly about the lawsuit

as I do about the body stuff, which is essentially like, no matter how much of either of those things you get, it's never not gonna be stressful. Oh yeah. Right? Yeah. And the idea that on top of all of that stress,

you also need to be like extremely asidious about what you eat is like, Jesus Christ. Also, I'm glad that she was able to have pie and like let go of this for a little while. It seems like she deserves it. That mac and cheese sounds good. Normalize it.

Normalize pie and seven cheeses. Yeah, so the trial starts in January of 1998. They are suing her under the Texas Parishable Foods Act. This is one of these veggie libel laws that passes in this wave of legislation that happens in the early 1990s. It's the first time this law has ever been used. So it's kind of a test case for this Texas veggie libel law and a test case for kind of like these laws writ large, right?

Because they've been on the books for five years now, and they've never been used. So the country's legal establishment is watching this to see whether it works and whether like these laws could potentially be overturned. It seems like the highest stakes possible test litigation. Oh yeah, if you're gonna sue Oprah. So to find Oprah guilty, the lawyers have to prove that Oprah and Howard, this is in the law,

they have to have stated or implied that a perishable food product was not safe for consumption for the public. So they cite Oprah's comment that this has put me off eating another burger. One of the claims they're contesting is just four words long, feeding cows to cows. They also focus on Howard's comparison of the U.S. to the U.K. This is from the eventual appeal that is filed years later. It says, branding Lyman an extremist, the cattleillman site, two of his inflammatory statements during the April 16th Oprah Winfrey show. First, the Catillman challenge as patently false Lyman's assertion that Mad Cow disease could make aides look like the common cold.

Second, they maintain that Lyman falsely accused the United States of treating Mad Cow as a public relations issue as Great Britain did, and failing to take any substantial measures to prevent a mad cow outbreak in this country. They're also suing over the editing. This is actually really interesting. They're saying that the show was deceptively edited, because as we talked about last episode, they did in fact have like a somewhat independent USDA

genuine expert on mad cow disease, and they cut his appearance from eight minutes down to 37 seconds. As an audio editor, I actually agree with the concept that you could very easily libel somebody with editing. No question, listen. Michael, you do it to me. Oh, we had. I don't know if you remember this, right?

Like very, very early in the show. We had like a rough cut. We were sort of taking apart pieces of the episode and putting it back together. And there was a point where there was some like artifacts of the previous edit. And I said at one point, I was like, well, that is why so many kids like die in road accidents in America and then you cackled for like two minutes, which was just like, it was like, I had cut out something else there like a joke,

but because I had like children dying and then you laughing, it was like, wow, I was a monster. This is also, Michael, I'm so glad you bring this up. We're now back in Bachelorland. This is the Bachelor of the day, I'm time. you bring this up. We're now back in Bachelorland. This is what the Bachelor knows all the damn time. You got a villain edit in your season, but they want to bring you back as the Bachelor. Congratulations. You're going on Bachelor in Paradise. You're about

to get the best edit possible. Nick Vile. This is why I'm so nervous about people having pair of social relationships with us because I keep wanting to stress that I'm a normal person who's like a dick sometimes, and I don't want you to experience that as a betrayal. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Mike has bad takes and is sometimes a prick. Podcasters, they're just like us.

Exactly. Oh. So the lawsuit is mostly over these false claims, and it really rests on this claim that Howard Lemon made that America is treating mad cow disease like Britain, right? It's basically treating it like a public relations issue, rather than like a public health issue.

So, for you and I to adjudicate whether this claim has any merit, we need to talk for the next two hours about the history of mad cow disease. Delightful. Can't wait, rotting brains, let's go. Speaking of which, what do you remember about mad cow, like just as a disease, as a condition from last week? What I remember is feeling very upset by the effects of it.

It's very upsetting. It's very upsetting. It essentially like creates holes in your brain. Am I remembering that right? Yeah. The actual name of it is bovine, spongeiform, and cephalopathy. Spongiform.

Yeah, and that's because your brain looks like a fucking sponge. Yes, it's disgusting. I wonder if that's a very effective name in terms of conveying what happens and that it's degenerative and pretty rapidly degenerative. Is that right? So it lives in your body for a very long incubation period of years and then you're dead within a year.

Yeah, that seems horrible. So the weird thing about this condition is that it takes place in almost all mammal species. Oh. So you can find it in like, minks and in elks, it's called chronic wasting disease. In sheep, it's called scrappy, which is a great disease name. I like diseases that sound like diseases.

That sounds like crap, see. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? That sounds like an urban legend bad guy. In humans, it's called croits-filled Jacob disease. There are these little things in your, like, nerve cells, mostly in your brain and your spine called prions. And we don't really know what they do.

The current theory apparently is that they, like, help your brain communicate with itself and communicate with your nervous system. But they're all over the place and they kind of propagate themselves by, like, folding. They're, like, constantly folding into folding into these like three-dimensional shapes. And every once in a while, this is extremely rare. They get like an error message, like a little 404 and they like fuck up, and then they like fold in on themselves

and like capture the little error message and start repeating the error message. Holy shit. The kind of traditional version of it is called like spontaneous, quite a lot of Jacob disease. And like it just fucking happens in your brain and then it starts propagating itself

and then you start to get these awful symptoms, which are very similar to dementia at first. And so it mostly happens in older people, the median age of onset is 66. The bad news is that there's no way of testing for it before you get symptoms and there's no treatment for it. But the good news is that it's very difficult to spread. So, you know, it's not airborne,

it doesn't come out in your poo or your pee or any of your fluids, like it's once one person gets it, they just sort of get it spontaneously and then they die. Jesus. There's a couple instances of cannibal tribes like getting it, where you can spread it from one person to the other if you're like eating someone else's brain. But again, it's, you know, it's fairly rare behavior in mammals to like eat an entire carcass of another thing.

So luckily, it can't really become a pandemic. It's just like something unbelievably unfortunate that like happens to an individual basically. Yeah, good. But what is important about the Mad Cow outbreak of 1996 specifically is that it had never been seen in cows before. So we knew that it was in sheep.

We also knew that humans cannot get it from sheep. Humans can eat the meat. Humans don't eat a lot of sheep brains, but apparently even if you do, humans don't get it from sheep. Humans can eat the meat. Humans don't eat a lot of sheep brains, but apparently even if you do, humans don't get it from sheep and other animals don't get it from sheep. Interesting. So the first case that is documented in a cow

is in 1986 in the UK. This cow was acting really weird and cows haven't really done this before. Cows can get rabies apparently, but rabies has very specific symptoms and a farmer's like, oh these, this doesn't really seem like rabies. And eventually somebody tests the brain of the cow after it dies and is like, oh, this is spongy as fuck. Like I think we have a new thing on our hands. And then after they identify the first couple cases, they start testing for it more widely, and it's just galloping throughout the cattle industry.

So by the end of 1988, there's 95 confirmed cases on 80 farms. By 1989, there's 2,200 cases. By 1990, there's 10,000 cases, and by 1991, there's 24,000 cases, and by 1991, there's 24,000 cases. Good God! There are many, many, many things written about the botched UK government response to the Mad Cow epidemic, and I read three books about this.

I read the parliamentary inquiry that is eventually published about every single step along the way that like they fucked up. So the first thing that the British government fucked up in responding to this is they realized what they had on their hands in March of 1987, but they didn't announce it until May. So like this was spreading within the cow population, and like they didn't tell farmers, like they didn't tell people that this was happening basically. Yeah, that stuff is always so tricky, right? But you don't want people to panic, but also with holding information, seems like a real bad practice.

So fairly early, almost immediately, the UK government figures out that this has to be spreading through cow's eating cow brains. Like that's the only way we know that animals can get this is eating their own species, brains and like spinal cords and shit. And so like they look around the cattle industry and they're like, oh yeah, it's a fairly common practice.

Well, cattle to be ground up and turned into this like bone meal protein stuff that they give other cows. So it's like they know relatively quickly like how this is spreading. So it's not until June of 1988, nearly two years after they find the first case, that they ban the practice of feeding bone meal to cows, and this is so baffling to me, they give them a grace period.

So they announce it in June, but they're like, oh, you don't have to implement it until five weeks later in July. But this is poisonous, they're feeding poisonous food to other cows. It feels a little bit like the time when very early on in the COVID-19 pandemic, when people were like, and 95 masks don't even work.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it was just so that there were enough for healthcare providers versus being like, hey, it's most important that the people who are exposed to this the most have the protection that they need. So we're putting them over here, right? Like, this feels like it's in the same neighborhood of like, boy, I see how you got here, but like reorganize your principles here, reorganize your priorities. This is not the way to do it.

There's also a weird naivete about how farmers are going to react to this. So they basically, in 1988, tell farmers, like, you can't use this stuff anymore, right? It's poison, don't feed it to your cows anymore, but they don't give them any compensation. What? So the farmers are like, well, I've spent tens of thousands of pounds on food. Like cows need a lot of food. This is like a fairly sizable industry. This like protein meal that they're making. And it's like, oh, yeah, like all of that is worthless.

Bye. Yeah. And famously a pretty low margin business for farmers and ranchers. Like, they're not exactly like making bank. It also just like totally destroyed trust between the government and the farmers. Because the farmers were like, like, they're not exactly like making bank. It also just like totally destroyed trust between the government and the farmers, because the farmers were like, well, fuck you,

you're just telling me not to use this stuff. And like, you're not giving me any compensation, it feels really insulting. So a lot of the farmers just kept using it until their supplies were gone. And this is another super duper botched government response thing. The UK government didn't ban exports.

What? Of the bone meal. So this is another thing that they're selling it to French farmers, Swiss farmers, Belgian farmers. This is part of the industry. So all of the cases of Mad Cow that we get in Europe in the early years of this are from French cows eating British bone meal. Oh, interesting. They also fucked up the compensation

in telling farmers to destroy their herds as well. So the government bans all this poisonous food. They also tell farmers that they have to kill any cows that have like symptoms of mad cow. But they have this whole compensation scheme where any cow that you kill, like a normal cow, they pay you 100% of the value of the cow. However, if the cow has Mad Cow disease, they only pay you 50% of the value of the cow. But the logic, I guess, is like, well, it has Mad Cow, so it gets worthless, so we shouldn't

be paying as much. But the problem is, as soon as farmers start to see symptoms in their cows of mad cow disease, they kill the cow and grind it up and put it in the food. Right. Right. They slaughter it, they sell it, they get rid of it because it's about to lose half of its fucking value. I remember growing up, like my dad's a pilot,

and he would talk about how, if you had a mental health diagnosis on the books, you would be grounded as a pilot, you couldn't fly. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, so you just don't get diagnosed. Right. Which just meant there were like a bunch of people with like untreated and undiagnosed mental illnesses and it just sort of disincentivized like a generation or more of pilots from like seeking mental health care that they may have really needed. Yeah, it's super predictable. I mean, this is like really 101 stuff. Yeah.

The one non-botsched government response that they did is they also assign researchers to find out how this started. So there's actually like a fairly interesting mystery that they have to find out how this started. So there's actually a fairly interesting mystery that they have to figure out. They know that Mad Cow disease is spreading through this practice of grinding up cows and feeding it to other cows. Cows eat cow brains, that's how they get mad cow, right? They know that's happening. However, this practice is very widespread. Like America does it, every country in Europe does it. This is like a pretty well entrenched part of the cattle industry by this point. And in Britain, they've been doing this since the 1920s.

This is actually like something that, that like Oprah is kind of reacting to, and like the rest of the public is reacting to. He's like, oh, we're doing this regularly. And the whole cattle industry is like, yeah, you don't want to think about like the conditions under which your beef is produced. But like, yeah, there's a lot of like waste products when you kill a cow and like, we're going to try to do something with those waste products.

Yeah. So it's like, okay, well, then why is Mad Cow happening in Britain? And why is it happening now? So this is actually pretty interesting. They manage to triangulate the source of the outbreak based on all these incubation periods and when the cows are getting it, where the cows are getting it, they trace it back to the winter of 1981 to 1982. Huh, something changed in that winter to start spreading mad cow throughout the cow population. So there's a couple different factors that appear to have led to this. The first is the increasing use of this bone meal protein stuff. That basically cows need a lot of protein to grow up and get big muscles.

This is just human beings. We all need protein. And this is one of the cheap ways to produce protein. It's like grained up meal and feed it to cows. And so, there's a weird thing that the price of soy beans and other, quote unquote, natural forms of protein spiked that winter. So, in the winter of 1981, the percentage of cow feed

that was this bone meal went from 1% to 5%, which was the highest in Europe. No other country was using that much bone meal. There was also a change in the way that they create bone meal. So I don't know if this is a trigger warning, but if you're eating right now, stop eating. This is like, this is so popular.

Listen, if you've been eating beef in particular for any of this, maybe, maybe, maybe finish your lunch and then, then come back to us in a couple hours. This is so fucking gross, Aubrey, but we have to talk about it. So the way that this bone meal protein stuff works is they basically take, like, cow carcasses and oftentimes they'll throw in other animals too, like other sort of farm animals that are around. They grind them all up into this kind of like flop. And so there's all these industrial processes to separate the fat in that slop from the protein. And what's super weird is the fat part is actually very valuable. This is like beef tallow. And it's like an industrial additive that like they use it in cosmetics. They use it in like printing money. Like it's part of plastics.

I believe famously it was what gave McDonald's fries their flavor for years and years and years, right? This is like a very refined industrial process to like separate out the constituent parts of this like gross animal slop. And as the industry was getting bigger and consolidating especially in the 1970s in Britain, they switched from creating this bone meal in batches, like you do a bunch of tons of it at once, to doing it continuously. So they have like a conveyor belt that does it just all the time. And as part of that process, they weren't heating the bone meal up as high.

So it used to be that they were heating it to like 220 degrees and that dropped to like 180 degrees or something like that. They just weren't getting it up to as high temperatures and keeping it at those high temperatures for as long when they switched to this new process. There was also a really interesting change in processing that it used to be that, you know, because Tallow is so much more valuable

than this like protein shit, they would use chemical solvents. So after they heated it up, they would blast it with these like weird chemicals to kind of dissolve the fat and then they could reconstitute it through other chemical processes later. But the industry started increasingly relying on that in the 1970s and then there were some

like really grisly fires and explosions at these rendering plants because the solvents that they were using were extremely dangerous. Boy, boy. So as like an occupational health and safety thing, they phased out these solvents. I will say I'm glad to hear that part. I feel generally wary of conversations about the gross nature of food production, not because we shouldn't, those aren't things we should talk about, but because it's so quickly tips into that bread is made out of the same thing as yoga mats are made out of.

Sort of sensationalized claims that are designed to squick people out and make them think that their food is dangerous. When like water is a thing that's used in making bread and yoga mats, right? Like there are plenty of things that sort of go in both categories. But from an occupational safety standpoint, that feels like a place where we are generally like asleep at the wheel as consumers, right? Like there's like very little discussion of like what is the safety of farm workers picking your vegetables and fruits? What is the safety level of folks

who are sort of working on this process? So I'm like very glad to hear that the occupational safety part sort of wins the day. It's a really weird, like, perfect storm of like the price of international, like, fish meal production went up and they reduced the heat by like a little bit in these processes and the protein that they were feeding the cows went from like 5% fat to 12% fat.

And like none of these things on their own seem like that big of a deal, right? They're like little tweaks. Okay, like these are the little things that happen in industrial processes all the time. And like none of us ever find out about it. It's like, okay, just like a little tiny practice that doesn't really make any big difference.

But all of these things together, because the heat wasn't as high, and fat protects microorganisms from heat. So the fat produced a barrier around the protein stuff that meant that it wasn't getting heated to the same temperatures. So basically, there was some process in place to destroy all of the prions, and it just fell below the threshold at which it could get destroy all of the prions and like it just fell below the threshold at which it could get rid of all the prions.

And it left a couple of the prions in the little like protein cakes. Also these cakes sound fucking disgusting apparently. I read a really good book called Deadly Feasts by Richard Rhodes about like how all this happened and he described them as scab colored. It's like they just like smell like a dead body. So just like fucking gross,

these little patty cakes of flesh stuff that you see to fucking cows. I really love that a running theme of this show is you being like, these are the things that are too gross for me. And I can't talk about it. And then you bring episodes. And then I share them.

And then I have to tell other people about them to share my grossed outness. Well, and then you get like a wave for however long of like social media response. Yeah, yeah. For their prompts are like, check this out. Yeah. It's a very particular hell this out. Yeah, totally. Yeah.

It's a very particular hell of your own making, bud. So basically, by the 1980s, they've kind of figured out what happened. There's still, it's actually very interesting. There's still debate about where the first case came from. So one theory, the theory in the parliamentary inquiry is that just like a cow got it one day. The same way humans do. It's like prions are like doing their little folds and then there's like a little 404 that gets folded into the cow brain and the cow gets ground up and fed to other cows

and so on, right? That's one theory. The other theory is that it was a variant of scrappy. theory is that it was a variant of scrappy, because it was relatively widespread in sheep, and everyone thought that other animals couldn't get it from sheep. They were grinding up sheep in these sheep parts in this sloped stuff too, and that's how it got into the feed for the cows. So that is still a mystery, like the actual origin point, like the big bang of all of this. But once you start having these like diseased cow brains in the food, because you've had so much industrial consolidation, you're making this in like huge batches, right? So one infected cow goes into like a huge batch and then get spread out to like hundreds of farms. So that's how this ended up spreading like underneath everybody's radar

throughout the entire country in the early 1980s. So what Howard Lyman said on Oprah that everyone's going to fight about in Texas in another decade is that the British government essentially treated this as a public relations problem and not as like a threat to human health. And that is on some level true, because before this, there had never been a case where a version of Mad Cow had spread from animals to humans. Hmm. It is true that like when you look at the government response,

the government was basically seeing this as like an animal disease and was trying to protect the British cattle industry. But they weren't doing this. It's not like there was some like flashing red light like this is about to jump to humans at any time. There were actual scientists and like specialists in this who were like, no, no, we've been eating sheep with scrappy for centuries. We've never gotten scrappy in humans.

Right. So they're calibrated to like completely the wrong scale of thinking and they're approaching an incomplete list of institutions that need to be engaged and all kinds of stuff. So if you're focused on the wrong problem from jump or a small fraction of the total problem from jump, of course you're going to come up with solutions that don't fix the whole thing, if you don't know the whole thing exists. Yeah, and like given the information that they had at the time,

this really wasn't on anybody's radar. And there was, this is like one of the most fucked up things I've ever read. In 1985, there were also all these other studies where people had kind of tried spreading prions from like one species to another or even within the same species. So in 1985, there's an article on like cannibal hamsters. What?

Hamsters. Hamster brains. What? And they didn't get like hamster spongeiform and cephalitis. When you say, get hang on. We got to unpack cannibal hamsters. You don't get to just skate by cannibal hamsters. I'm assuming that this is a lab experiment, right?

Where hamsters are being fed. There's not like a subset of hamsters that are like, Hannibal hamsters, hamsters. There was a plane crash and the hamsters had to resort to eating one another. That makes more sense to me and I feel relieved and very sad for those hamsters that got fed hamstered by me. I know. That seems really disturbing, but glad to know that I can just love my unproblematic

fave hamsters again. But yeah, at the time, the conventional wisdom was that like even if cows were eating cow brains, you would need like a lot of brain material for this to spread from one animal to the other. And for whatever reason, that turns out not to be true for cows. So there's this big freak out in the 1980s, but it hasn't really crossed over to the public yet.

There's news stories, it's a big deal, but it's kind of cast as like an agricultural issue, right? Like, there's this weird disease in cows, but the public isn't super duper tracking this. So after this initial flurry, a couple years go by, and then in 1990, there is a cat named Max who dies of mad cow disease. Okay.

It appears that the cat became infected from eating cat food that had like ground up cow brains. And oh my God. And it's, first of all, it's like kind of scary that mad cow is spreading from one species to another, which like they said couldn't happen, right? And then also there's like, just like Oprah, you're like, oh wait, we're all eating fucking cow brats.

Totally. Hang on, totally. And it's like gross to think about. Cat food didn't see it coming, but of course. This kicks off a much larger wave of panic than there had been just when cows had it. This is also when we actually get the coining of the term a much larger wave of panic than there had been just when like cows had it. This is also when we actually get the coining

of the term mad cow, which was something the British tabloids came up with. It has British tabloid written all over it. That is for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It also fits very well in headlines. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But what's amazing to me, right, is the British tabloids

who you know I hate with the depths of my heart. Like I loathe British tabloids who you know, I hate with the depths of my heart. Like I loathe British tabloids. Yes. But this is a very weird case for me because I've looked into a million moral panics at this point and they all have kind of the same structure of, you know, especially this tabloid media like whipping up a bunch of fears about something that is fake, right? The British tabloids at this time start whipping up a panic about Mad Cow and they're like, it could spread to humans

and like, they're fucking right. But this is like a stopped clock is right twice a day, right? Like, funny by accident slash like, compulsive sensationalization of things that they hit on this, not because they're like observing anything, right? And they're quoting these like crank doctors who are like the medical establishment,

doesn't want you to know, which is true. That's accurate. Like the medical establishment was like super head in the sand about the possibility of this spreading to humans. And like the government at this point started doing all kinds of like PR shit. Like the minister of agriculture went on TV and fed his daughter a hamburger as like a PR move

to be like, look how safe the beef is. Like everyone should stop slandering beef. And like his daughter's fine, it's all fine. But like it was true that the government was doing, like I wouldn't say a cover-up, but the government was definitely doing a lot of like pro-beef propaganda at the time. God, I just feel like our next episode,

you're gonna be like, there was a bat boy, and he did escape it. I know exactly. From a Chicago lab. This is what's so funny is because like, this has all of the hallmarks of a moral panic, right? If you looked at this structurally, right? There's like some pseudo-science stuff.

There's like taking, you know, a small number of cases and blowing them up into these disaster scenarios, but like, it happened. It then happens. So, for the first time ever, Kudos to the Daily Mail, forgetting it right. Jesus Christ. It's bleak.

Yeah. So then a couple more years go by after the cat cow panic kind of dies down. We then get to 1993, which is when the first human cases start to show up. So there's a farmer who one of his cows had been diagnosed with Mad Cow and like he ended up slaughtering a bunch of his cows early. And then he starts getting this like weird dementia and people are like, this feels weird, but to my knowledge

that has never actually been confirmed as a case of Mad Cow, it could be, and it could just be like a really unlucky guy who happened to get dementia really early. We don't know yet. Boy, oh boy, I hadn't encountered a couple of weeks ago with someone who was like, I had COVID before they knew what it was. And I was like, oh, in like January or something.

And this person was like, no, in like 2017. And I was like, oh, yeah. No, it hadn't leaked from the lab yet. Yeah, it didn't. Also in 1923, there's a little girl named Vicki Rimmer who starts getting these weird symptoms at the age of 15. And like her grandmother, this is actually a really interesting example of like something that is usually bad,

but is true in this case, her grandmother had been reading the tabloids, and her grandmother was like, I think this is Mad Cow, and she goes to the tabloids, and the tabloids are like, Mad Cow in little girl, and start whipping up panic. Again, under any other circumstance, I'd be like, this is very irresponsible, but it's fucking true.

It has now been confirmed that this little girl had mad cow. Boy, oh boy. In 1994, there's a 15 year old girl who has it in 1995. There's another teenager who has it. And so after a couple of these cases start trickling out, it becomes clear that something is happening. And so on March 20th, 1996, the British government announces that there have been 10 cases of human mad cow disease.

Do they have any sense of why so many teenagers? It's actually, to this day, it's not clear. There appears to be some weird, like, genetic marker that makes some people susceptible to it and not others, but it's not clear to me why it's happening in children. Although the median age of these 10 cases is 28, it's also really interesting. I actually spent like a long time trying to figure out like where these cases originated. Where like what did they eat to give them mad cow, right?

But like you can't really trace it back because it's been seven years since these people ate the contaminated beef. Right, we've talked on the show about how bad people are at self-reporting data of what they ate today. Like, it's then adds seven years. It's not getting better. And it's like the only thing you could even do

to investigate is, well, did you eat beef between 1987 and 1989? Like that's as good as you can do. And this incubation period also fulments another like much more mainstream wave of panic. I mean, this is when Oprah finds out about it. This is when the rest of the world finds out about it. I mean, this is a huge deal that it's like, okay, there's tainted beef that has a 100% fatality rate like eight years later. Like that's fucking terrifying. Yeah, totally.

This is also when we get, of course the tabloids now go into overdrive and there's various predictions of how many people will die. The highest estimate is 500,000 people. Jesus, God. Eventually it's 177 people. So this model is way fucking out there, but it's like, yeah, you start counting up

the number of people who eat beef. Yeah, totally. This is like the rest of the world kind of like kicks into action. There's something very funny that the EU has a ban on British beef in place for 10 years, but even after they lift it, France just keeps the ban in place, like in France, even though that's illegal, under like, you rules.

France is like, no, no, no, we got, we've got problems with the British. This feels very France. Yeah. Just like, we feel like it. What are you gonna do about it? Yeah, fuck it. We're just not gonna tell you guys about it.

We never liked you anyway. Yeah. So we're now going to do back to Amarillo, Texas. It's January January 1998 again. It's a weird timeline because the Mad Cow panic in America really like peaked in 1996 when Oprah was doing her episode and then fell pretty quickly.

Once people figured out that like there had never been a case of Mad Cow in America and there was no human case of Mad Cow in America ever either. And like this remained an extremely British phenomenon. Like to this day, it's like, you know, 140,000 cattle in Britain were diagnosed with Mad Cow. And in Portugal, it's like 200 in France. It's like 150. It's like really isolated outside of Britain. So by the time the trial starts, like almost two years later, the country's kind of over mad cow. Right. And if it's unique to this one sort of industry in this one country, then like you figure out,

like if you're not living in the UK, right? Like you figure out that you can sort of like let go of some of that anxiety. So the trial itself begins. Oprah and Howard Lyman both eventually end up taking the stand, Oprah testified for three days. I couldn't find trial transcripts, which is really annoying. I wanted to do a dramatic reading of the testimony. All I know is from what has been included in the appeals and the various court decisions and media reports.

Howard Lyman says the first question they asked him when he got onto the stand was like, are you a vegetarian, yes or no? What? They were casting him as like an animal rights extremist. It's like they're playing to the Amarillo crowd. Yeah, totally. Ah ha!

But then, okay, I'm just gonna spoil this. They really never had a chance of winning this lawsuit. Really? They have to prove a series of things to win the lawsuit. So a lot of the trial rests on the fact that Oprah, like her show, caused this huge drop in cattle prices in April of 1996. The prosecution calls like traders,

they call an economist who's like, I see no other structural reasons why the price of beef would have fallen at that time, but then it's really hard to prove this stuff. Why does the price of a commodity fall at a particular time? Well, is Oprah's show in there maybe, but to get damages, they have to show that she was basically single-handed

they responsible for it, and cattle prices were down for 11 weeks. So somehow they have to prove that Oprah's show was like so powerful that people stopped eating beef for three months. Yeah, totally. Like, honestly, I buy it. Oprah was extremely influential at that time.

I actually do too, honestly, yeah. But like, to prove it, again, this is like part of what we come up against in nutrition research all the time, right? In order to prove this thing, you have to rule out every other possible thing that could cause this. And that's gonna be really hard to do when there is like a legitimate public health issue You have to rule out every other possible thing that could cause this.

And that's going to be really hard to do when there is like a legitimate public health issue at play. People are getting this news from more than just Oprah. So you have to prove it was Oprah and not 60 minutes or good morning America or the today show or whoever else covered it. This is what's so weird to me is like, if you Google around, you can find a bunch of articles from the time being like, could Mad Cow happen here? You know, some of them are more responsible than others,

but like panic about Mad Cow spreading to the US was very widespread. It's something the entire media was doing. It's not like Oprah went out on the limb with this segment, right? Yeah. There's also the defense calls various other economists who say that like, praises of beef had actually been falling for a while

and they call this guy to do this sort of like rapid fire questions of like, isn't it true that demand in Asia was falling at that time? And isn't it true that there was more supply coming out of slaughterhouses at that time? Like there's all these kind of supply and demand things that again, like normal people never really think about. But like all of these things are kind of what these prices

are really based on. It's like supply and demand, like kind of intrinsic factors. And they're like, well, there's all this kind of other stuff happening at the time. And it's really hard to put all of this at the feet of Oprah. I agree with you. I think that like she had something to do with it. Like the reputation of beef fell.

But there were also children dying in the United Kingdom from eating fucking beef. So there's also enough panic in the population at large that like, yeah, if children are dying from eating something, people are gonna stop eating it for a while. And I get that that sucks for your industry and it's unfair, but you can't blame any one media figure for that.

Yeah, totally. I mean, I feel similarly, honestly, about the, it feels like there's been an uptick in the last few years in people holding Oprah personally responsible for Dr. Oz and Dr. Phil and all of that kind of stuff. Absolutely. She played an influential role there and there is some like accountability to be had there. But not more than there is for those guys themselves.

Yeah, exactly. She's like a huge cultural force and like absolutely there's more to talk about here. But again, like the degree to which people like come after her personally for the sort of like big cultural waves that sometimes she starts and sometimes she rides, you know, seems disproportionate to me. And also, even under this lower standard, they still have to prove that Oprah's statements and Howard Lyman's statements

were false and that they knew that they were false. So that's a pretty fucking high bar, right? And if you look at the actual statements that they're accusing Oprah and Howard of saying, Oprah says it stopped me cold from eating another burger. Well, that's not a factual statement. False, no it didn't. I, that's not a factual statement. False, no it didn't, I saw you

with a brief on your show. We talked last episode about how opinions are protected. And then Howard Lyman's, you know, he says this disease could make AIDS look like the common cold. Well, that's a prediction about the future. That's like me saying like, well, if self-driving cars become normal,

lots of bikers are gonna get murdered in traffic, which is fucking true, by the way. But also, that's an opinion, that's my prediction of the future. That's not a fact. It's very obvious from the structure of that that it's an opinion. Well, and also it's a figure of speech, right?

X will make why look like Z. He's not giving it enough legs for you to have a factual statement to debunk. This feels a little bit like in courtroom dramas when they'll like have a witness on the stand and be like, didn't you say you do anything to be on this TV show? Yeah, yeah.

Like it's treated as this big smoking gun moment. And I'm like, honestly, like I said, I would kill for a grilled cheese yesterday. Like people say stuff. Don't, Let's not. It sort of feels like the same thing with Howard's claim that the US is treating this like a public relations issue just like Britain did.

You could say that that's like closer to a factual claim than I'll never eat beef again, but it also very firmly falls into the category of like, analysis to me, like it's not a straightforwardly factual claim. And it's also not straightforwardly false. Like one of the things that Howard mentioned on the Oprah show is that the meat industry instituted a voluntary ban on putting brains

and spines in these like protein patty cakes. But the US government didn't make it mandatory. And what he's saying is that the US government is treating this like a PR issue, not a threat to human health. And like maybe you disagree with that, or maybe you would put it differently, but it's not just like a clear cut factual statement,

and it's not in a clear cut way wrong. Yeah, Oprah talks later about how her entire strategy was basically making this a trial about free speech, right? They talked about like the slippery slope. If my show gets busted for asking questions about the safety of beef, think about all of the other shows that will have this huge chilling effect throughout the entire journalism industry. So in Kitty Kelly's biography, she has a description of Oprah testifying. She says, after repetitive questioning, she leaned into the microphone and in a commanding

voice said, I provide a forum for people to express their opinions. We're allowed to do this in the United States of America. I come from a people who have struggled and died in order to have a voice in this country and I refuse to be muscled. I like, that's a strong argument. Yeah, it totally is. And also, that's like a strength of sort of speech in her own defense that you don't often hear from Oprah, right?

Like, she'll tackle issues that way. She'll do all kinds of stuff. But like, maybe this is just like a sign of my like age and generation, but I don't remember hearing Oprah talk in those terms about herself. She also says, this is also from the kitty-kelly biography. When she was asked about her integrity, she said, I am a black woman in America.

Having gotten here believing in a power greater than myself, I cannot be bought. I answer to the spirit of God that lives in us all." She said her influence was not enough to drive Americans away from beef. If I had that kind of power, she said, I'd go on the air and heal people. This is a tricky one because she is like extraordinarily influential at this point in her life and career. But again, to trace all of this sort of like industry-wide impact, the back to just her is Bakers.

I think that she's fundamentally making like kind of a chicken shit defense throughout the trial. She keeps saying like, well, I'm not a journalist. Like you can't expect me to have the same standards as like a sort of traditional journalist. Like I'm an entertainment talk show. And then she also hides behind this like extremely guinith defense of like, I'm just asking questions.

That is chicken shit. Oprah has huge influence. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whether or not you say, go out and buy this book, please. If you say this book is good, people are going to go buy the fucking book, right? If you say beef is bad, people are going to stop buying beef. Like, come the fuck on, right?

But then also, you don't want to have a legal regime where anytime you say driving a Honda sucks and then like fucking Honda sues you, and so if that becomes the legal standard, then like the chilling effect would be profound, right? If you just can't even, as much as I hate to use the term, ask questions about whether a product isn't harming us. So it's like, oh, press should not have done this, but also the cattleman should not have done

this either. This is an ESH situation. Michael Info Wars Hobbs just asking questions. I know, just I think it's important to be able to ask the top questions. It's tricky because it's like an argument that like Fox News makes to be like, it's not news, it's the pinion. I know, I hate it. that like Fox News makes to be like, it's not news, it's the pinion. In this case, I take her point about the sort of chilling effect on journalism,

and I don't think that's wrong. Like journalists are historically not the most moneyed among us. So if you take on a particularly rich or powerful industry, they can file suit against you and just wait until you run out of money or will to find it, right? They can just drown you in lawsuit and motions and everything. So the trial is very weird because weeks before the verdict,

it effectively ends. To recap, the Texas statute says, the information states or implies that a perishable food product is not safe for consumption by the public. So this is what the entire trial has been resting on. So after the prosecution lays out its case, Oprah's defense files a motion to dismiss.

My understanding is this is like fairly common that defense teams would be like, we all saw how shitty that case was. Let's get this whole thing out of here. And so based on this motion to dismiss, the judge rules that beef is not perishable. I'm sorry, what the fuck? It's so fucking weird. So, as we discussed, at length, last episode, because I was foreshadowing, all of these veggie libel laws are based on the argument that existing libel laws might be fine for the Gwyneth Paltrow's of the world,

but because our products are perishable, existing libel laws might be fine for the Gwyneth Paltrow's of the world, but because our products are perishable, we should get more protection from defamatory claims. Yeah. And so a huge amount of like the pretrial motions, the sort of interstitial things within the trial, our arguing over is cattle a perishable product. Because if it's not perishable,

then this law doesn't apply. Michael, this went from being one of the most fascinating topics we've gotten into to the biggest pile of like brain rot. So fucking weird. So the judge in the case rules in this motion to dismiss that cattle is not perishable because, if the value of cattle falls precipitously because opurmita TV show about how cattle is bad,

you can still sell your product, right? You can, she says, like, you can sell it to like hot dog makers. Like, you can grind up your like, old disease cows and like put them in hot dogs. Right, exhibit a jerky. Exactly. Yeah. The phrase that they use is it's not beyond marketability for a limited period of time. Right. Which the entire law rests on. I am so sorry. This is like the cannibal hamsters. My brain can't move on. Cattle is like straight, for-worthy perishable. But then when you think about it,

I guess everything is perishable. Humans are perishable. Yeah, long enough time goes by, it's all fucking perishable. So they were hoisted by their own petart. They used this like fake thing about her like, ah, we're perishable, so we don't count, to get these laws passed.

But then the judges are like, well, according to your own bullshit-ass law, your product isn't perishable. Okay. So, as a result of this motion to dismiss, the trial then gets kicked down to ordinary business disparagement laws. So, under this law, they not only have to prove that Howard Lyman and Oprah's statements were false, they knew they were false, they also have to prove that they said them anyway out of malice.

Oprah and Howard Lyman hate these specific cattle ranchers so much that they're going to state a knowingly false claim. I like the idea that Oprah has a red yarn bulletin board somewhere somewhere in her like one of her 12 homes. Yeah. The cattle industry, it's time and we start with these small fries. Yeah, and they, you know, as we mentioned last episode at no point, did she mention Texas or obviously these specific people in her episode, she was just talking about beef. So it's just like a frivolous lawsuit then becomes like triple frivolous.

So the trial goes on for a couple more weeks and then we finally get to the verdict and it's like a unanimous verdict and everybody's just like, no, the claims are not false. Like whether or not they knew they were false, you haven't even proved that they're fucking false. I mean, listen, this is the Gwyneth Paltrow ski trial, where it's like everyone's watching with baited breath,

and then at the end, everyone is, of course, like, no, he said he didn't even see what happened. He was just like, I think you're wrong. Like, that's just like a huge fucking waste of everybody's time, ultimately. Like, what are you doing? So there's a very weird thing on the courthouse steps afterwards, where everybody kind of declares victory.

So Oprah cries in the courtroom. Like it's clear this is very emotional. It was not clear that she was going to win. I can see how this would be like a hugely anxiety producing thing. She then goes out on the courtroom steps and says, free speech not only lives it rocks. So she's casting this as like a free speech trial.

The cattlemen also on the steps say that, you know, we have won because we've firmly established that US beef is safe. And not perishable. Yeah. Yeah. I also think that the cattlemen are just like factually wrong. Yeah.

The Mad Cow thing was kind of already over at this point. The beef industry had already bounced back. What were you even trying to prove? Well, and by this standard, American beef to your point was always sort of quote unquote safe in this way. I feel like the real legacy of this case is that like way more Americans knew at this point

that they grind up cows and feed them to other cows than they did before. Which like that's not great PR for your industry, the fact that you know, you're fighting the Mad Cow stuff, but like what people are grossed out by is that. Look, in that way, the real winner here is Howard Lyman. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. This has taken a one hour Oprah show

and spun it into years of publicity for the guy who couldn't stop talking about feeding cows to cows or whatever. Yeah. Chef's kiss incredible. Also, a little lineman epilogue. I watched a bunch of YouTube videos of like where he's given talks where he talks about this.

According to him, Oprah's producers asked him to pay them back for her legal fees of $5 million. Which is so fucked. Yeah, that's fucked up. No, it also, I mean, who knows if this is true or whether Oprah knew about this or whatever, but it does reveal the fundamental misunderstanding of this, that Oprah, it's not that he said it, it's that you aired it. Right, totally. You found him, invited him on your show, didn't edit out.

Departs where he said a bunch of shit that was like scaring the public, you like to put all of the responsibility on him for saying it, and none of the like steps of the process in which you amplified it and like platformed it, like come the fuck on, you're way more responsible for this. Look, if you are a very famous wealthy person, you are never disputing the check.

Yeah, there's then a series of appeals. I've read all of the appeals, they're more available than the original court documents. Every single time they appeal it, like every district, judge, whatever is just like, what? No. Like, this whatever is just like, what? No. Like this is obviously like what the fuck are you talking?

These are not false claims. Yeah. These are not like libelists. A lot of them are opinion. This is very well protected by like the first amendment. And we all know beef is like twinkies. It never goes bad. Catalepher ever.

Yeah. Yes. Yes. One of the rejected appeals, the judge says, strip two its essentials. The cattleman's complaint is that the dangerous food episode did not present the mad cow issue in the light most favorable to United States beef. It's like, yeah, you guys are mad that you got bad PR. Yeah, totally.

And like, not untrue, it was not a flattering episode. Also not untrue. It wasn't like set up with an eye toward a fairness or journalist integrity in a meaningful way. And like, that doesn't mean that someone owes you $12 million. But then the really interesting epilogue of this is that because of this decision that cows live forever and the trial getting kicked down to ordinary business disparagement statutes, this wasn't tried under the veggie level law, this wasn't a test of the concept of veggie level. So they're all just kinda sitting there.

On the books. Boy, oh boy. I read actually a really interesting article about why they haven't been tested. I think because people are afraid that if you try using them, they'll be struck down on first amendment grounds. Like they're pretty blatantly unconstitutional, honestly. And so if you use them, they might get overturned.

Whereas if you don't use them, you can like use threats of them and like the existence of them to have this chilling effect. Which is kind of what they want to open up. You just have to be more careful if you're talking about an agricultural product in these 13 states than you would for other products. There's only been three cases tried under the veggie lapel laws. And one was dismissed and two were thrown out. I was going to say, what are the other two? Wait, you, you.

This was going to be the ending quote. Do you want to read? Do you want to read the paragraph? I do want to read a paragraph. I love this. This is the weirdest fucking thing. Okay. Send me this to you.

Quote, a second lawsuit was brought by a group of Emo ranchers against Honda motor company arising from a television commercial for the Honda Civic. Emo's versus Sedans. In the ad, a young man named Joe drives his Civic to meet with several potential employers about career opportunities. He then talks with a real estate developer who tells him Joe,

let's not call it a pyramid scheme. Just after that, Joe goes to an Emu ranch where he and the rancher observe a pen of grazing e-mues and the rancher says e-moo, Joe, it's the pork of the future. A group of ranchers sought suit under the Texas statue. Incredible. I don't think less of e-mues after this. I think the e-mues are fine.

This group of geckos filed suit against Geico. What are we doing here? This is another one where a judge looked at it for three minutes and was like, what? No. Get, yeah. Go away.

This is not a real case. I mean, you can't have duck suing aflack. It's not gonna happen. Ha, ha, ha, ha. Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz It's not gonna happen. It's not gonna happen. It's not gonna happen. So that's the kind of like bleak epilogue of the veggie libel laws. The less bleak epilogue of mad cow disease is that like, yeah, it has kind of been dealt with. Like it's not really a big deal in Britain anymore.

Like we know the cause of it. It's been addressed. It's not, you know, we're not getting cases anywhere near. Like we used to, there was actually a case of it discovered in the US in 2003. Again, there's kind of these structural elements in the US beef sector that kind of keep it from becoming like a massive outbreak. They found another case in 2005, another case in 2006, another case in 2012. So every once in a while, these things do pop up in various countries, but it hasn't really spread throughout the system. And there's been a couple other cases of Mad Cow in humans,

like very isolated cases, but it's fewer than 200 people worldwide total. And like 170 of those were like the original outbreak in Britain. Yeah, so you can't say the risk is zero. Like, you know, this isn't something that is like, this will never happen again or whatever, but this is an extremely, extremely rare thing to happen. You're more likely to get it just as you age randomly

than you are to get it from beef at this point. Are they still feeding cows to cows in the UK or in the US? Is that still happening? My understanding is they do still do this, but they remove the brain and the spine, which is where most of the like the mad cow stuff is. Remove...

Tiny repeating machine, straights again. Yeah. Thank you. you