Maintenance Phase - Weight Watchers

Episode Date: March 16, 2021

Get your flex point calculators and food scales! This week, Mike and Aubrey are talking about one of America's most iconic diet programs: Weight Watchers. Along the way, we encounter The Rock, the mating habits of straight people and a new James Bond villain. Support us: Subscribe on PatreonDonate on PayPalGet Maintenance Phase shirts, stickers and moreLinks!Jean Nidetch, a Founder of Weight Watchers, Dies at 91 Mass Firing on Zoom Is Latest Sign of Weight Watchers Unrest Weight Watcher's Kurbo app slammed for targeting kids. Makers defend it What's gone wrong at Weight Watchers? Weight Watchers Is Offering Teens Free Memberships and People Aren't Happy Americans’ new way of losing weight has left Weight Watchers behind How the Oprah effect helped Weight Watchers regain Americans' trust Deal Master Debbane The Population Cost‐Effectiveness of Weight Watchers with General Practitioner Referral Compared with Standard Care Weight Watchers on prescription: An observational study of weight change among adults referred to Weight Watchers by the NHS The Problem With 'Fat Talk' 'Fat Talk' Compels but Carries a Cost Thanks to Ashley Smith for editing assistance and Doctor Dreamchip for our lovely theme song!Support the show

Hello, welcome to Mane & Faze, the show where we sit in a circle and make you feel bad about yourself. I really thought you were going to be like, the show that you don't need a full scale for. Ooh. The show with points free. Like, yeah. These are all better than mine. Do we want to do this again?

No, yours is much more to the point. That is the function of this. We will talk about it. I am Michael Hobbs. I am a reporter for The Huffington Post. I am Aubrey Gordon. I'm an author and columnist and fat lady about town. And for the last three episodes,

we have been awkwardly piting in canned audio of Aubrey talking about our Patreon, which we recorded, actually, from the episodes and is like extremely evident from listening to those episodes. But this time, we're gonna do it organically. We're doing it live! Yeah, so we're on patreon.com slash maintenance phase. We also have t-shirts on T public.

You can find both of those links much more easily if you go to our website, which is maintenancephase.com. Or continue just listening for free. That's also chill. Yeah, totally. Do what you want. And today, we are talking about Weight Watchers. The Behemoth. The Leviathan.

Yeah, we're gonna talk about formerly Weight Watchers now, WW. Oh yeah. So Mike, talk to me about like, what do you know about Weight Watchers? Okay. So my understanding is that it's sort of like a support group for people trying to lose weight.

So you go there on, you know, every Wednesday or something and you get weighed in and you have, I guess like weight loss goals or whatever, and then you talk about weight and weight loss and your efforts and what's going well and what's not going well. And it's sort of like bringing other people along on this emotional roller coaster that everybody goes through when they lose weight, where it always works at first, and you project this gleaming future for yourself. And then inevitably, it doesn't work because most people can't maintain the restriction. And then you start to gain the weight back and you feel terrible about yourself.

And it seems like Weight Watchers would amplify both aspects of that, the sort of the false future that you project for yourself at the beginning of a weight loss effort, and also the sense of shame at the end of a weight loss effort and also the sense of shame at the end of weight loss effort when it inevitably doesn't work. Yeah, I would say that's about right. I was a weight watcher's member off and on for some time. My first weight watcher's meeting was when I was 11, which is already just like very problematic to have 11-year-olds being told that their bodies aren't cool and that they should lose weight. That's already bad. Weight watchers is like as a person who later developed an eating disorder,

weight watchers is where I learned a lot of the building blocks. This is true of a lot of diets, right? That like folks will sort of have the entry point of a diet and then it will sort of morph into an eating disorder because there's just in most dieting spaces there is not an awareness of eating disorders, there is not concern about eating disorders. The goal is lose weight at whatever costs, right? And a bunch of the things that they like actively recommend to you, like I was keeping a food journal, which is what you're supposed to do in your way, watchers, you write down what you

eat, you write down how many points it's worth. For me anyway, it sort of led me down the garden path a little bit to something that turned into something much, much worse. This reminds me that when I was a teenager, my parents sent my brother to an anger management, like a city-funded anger management course. And it turned out when he went there

that all the other kids were like super hardcore juvenile delinquents and so instead of learning any anger management skills, he would just hang out with these kids and they taught him like how to buy weed and like how to steal cars and stuff. It ended up being like this escalation of everything that was going on because of all the group dynamics that we're forming. I feel like that's kind of a metaphor. Yeah, I would say that's about right. Can you talk more about your experience in white watchers?

Like what was the sort of the narrative arc of you going through this whole process? Way watchers is where I got really good at distinguishing between a half cup of something and a cup of something. Oh. There was definitely this very big normalization of binge eating and Weight Watchers

and this sort of constant vigilance was seen as the natural solution. Earlier versions of Weight Watchers also had, like in our house, we had a food scale, like a Weight Watchers branded food scale. Oh, like a Weight Watchers branded food scale. Oh, they stole Weight Watchers branded food scales? Uh-huh. So people would like weigh their food before they ate it.

This was pre-like the point system. Rough. I mean, I will also say I grew up around a ton of like boomer ladies who were Weight Watchers devotees, right? The sort of thinking was, diets come and go, but Weight Watchers devotees, right? The sort of thinking was diets come and go, but Weight Watchers is the one that's really stood the test of time. It's like ponds cold cream, right?

Like you go get your fancy skincare, whatever. Ponds has been here. It's not flashy, but it gets the job done is sort of the vibe at Weight Watchers. And what I learned in this research is that that lore is really categorically incorrect in some big ways. First time that's ever happened. Shocked.

A widespread societal understanding of a phenomenon is based on incorrect information. It's as if one of the people on this podcast has built a career out of debunked. It's almost, it's only there was some sort of pitty phrase that we could use for this kind of revelation. Your perceptions of Weight Watchers may be incorrect.

So here's what I was saying. For most who are unfamiliar with Weight Watchers, Weight Watchers at its core is a low fat low calorie diet. You go to weekly meetings, you pay a weekly membership fee that ranges depending on sort of how you engage at this point. I think the low end is like $3 a week, the high end is $13 a week. Group leaders are people who have hit their target

goal weight and have maintained it for at least six weeks. So the belief is that your group leader has done it so so can you, right? There's sort of like a success story, quote unquote, in every room. Right. So I kind of want to just start us at the start of Weight Watchers. Are you ready for just like the story of Weight Watchers? Do it.

Take me down the WWPath delightful. Part of the lore of Weight Watchers was that it was started by this lower middle class lady. G-Night Edge was from New York, she was from Queens. She weighed about 210 pounds when a friend of hers mistook her for pregnant. Oh, that was when she decided to go on a sort of drastic kind of once and for all diet. I feel like that's one of those things.

If somebody has an interesting thing about them, like they see him pregnant, you probably should just be like, hey, any news? You hear something? Like, maybe don't go straight for the, you must be pregnant thing. And also, like, do you need to know? Yeah.

You could just skip it. Also that. So, Jean Nightich is, fatter than she wants to be, she decides to go on a diet. When she talks about how she was eating before going on this diet, what she describes is binge eating disorder. Oh, she talks about eating multiple boxes of malamars in one sitting. What are malamars? Uh, they're like cookies, cookie candy,

sort of hybrid. Proto-snack wells. Except they're not trying to be good for you. Okay. She is getting boxes of cookies and hiding them from her family and eating them in secret and feeling these big waves of shame after she eats them. I mean, it's like she's truly just like ticking down the list of diagnostic criteria for binge eating disorder. Because that's not a framework we have at the time.

She thinks, well, I'm fat and I need to lose weight, not, oh, something's going on in my brain. And maybe the solution here is a brain thing and not a body thing, right? That's also an interesting thing of how we talk about it on the show a lot, the sort of the difference between behavior and weight. Yeah. You can be alarmed by your binge eating behavior and try to work on that behavior

in a way that is not necessarily about weight loss or about seeing yourself as a fundamentally failed person. Yeah. Losing 20 pounds is not her primary problem right now. Like, that shouldn't necessarily be the goal. Totally and absolutely, right? So interestingly, she famously lost like 70 pounds. Oh well. She lost her weight interestingly through the New York City Board of Health's clinic, which developed like a weight loss program and a diet called the prudent diet. Wait, so this was like a municipal program? This is like socialist weight loss? It sure was, yeah.

Okay. So it was developed by the Board of Health. It included a support group element. Oh. The diet itself is like extremely early 60s. That's when all of this is happening, right? It was so just like breakfast, aspect, lunch, aspect. And dinner is like crab cocktail.

It is fish five times a week. Nice. And two glasses of skim milk a day and like whole wheat bread. Basically like she went through this whole program. She lost 70 pounds using this program, but she didn't like how their group leader ran the group. Okay.

So she started running it out of her living room with other like people, predominantly women, trying to lose weight, and she started charging people. Wait, so is this a story of private sector, quote unquote, innovation? It's actually just a person stealing an idea from the public sector. 100%. Like how tech people in Silicon Valley keep accidentally inventing buses.

What if Uber? But it was like lots of people at once. Yeah, that's exactly right. So basically, she lifts the prudent diet whole cloth and like copies a bunch of their materials and runs these support groups out of her house, just using the exact diet that she got for free from the New York City Board of Health Clinic. But she's a better camp counselor, whatever. Totally, yeah. So the business takes off wildfire. By 1967, so just four years in,

she has over a hundred franchises in the US, in Canada, in Puerto Rico, in Israel, in the UK. Oh, why? And that same year, their franchises reached 43 of the 50 states. This is what we're always saying. Fat people are like a massively underserved market. People are leaving money on the table,

not thinking of fat people as like an actual consumer demographic. Totally. So around the same time, they published the first Weight Watchers cookbook. There have been many since then. It sold 1.5 million copies in 1966, which is humongo, right?

So like half of the sales of what we don't talk about when we talk about fat. One third. Half to one third. How dare you? One quarter, yes. The 60s also saw the launch of Weight Watchers branded foods, spas, scales, and fat camps.

Oh, that's dark. The scales are dark, but then it got even darker. Yeah, so Weight Watchers fully operated fat camps. Oh! That's dark. The scales are dark, but then it got even darker. Yeah, so we watchers fully operated fat camps for kids. And in my notes, it says, fuck all the way off. Yeah. So interestingly, the 70s roll around, and we watchers starts to shift its approach.

It talks less about dieting and more about like eating skills. They also branch out. They no longer stick just to the prudent diet. They start coming up with different eating plans for different members. So they now have these sort of like tailored eating plans as the way that they talk about it. And this is like the beginning of a trend that will continue with Weight Watchers, where they sort of start,

like they keep trying to sort of adapt to popular thinking about food and eating and dieting. And that means that they change their formula, right? Which also gets us to this sort of eventual dropping of weight from the name too, right? That it's like they're basically surfing on whatever the diet trend is at the time. They're just incorporating it into what they're already doing. Pretty much.

So during the same time, the 60s and 70s, Jean becomes more and more of a celebrity. Oh, she's like gorgeous, she's glamorous, she's like now thin, she is famously like very good friends with Maya Angelou. Not the cameo I was expecting in this episode. Fucking mean even, man, it's so weird. Yeah, Jean has since, I'm not spoiling anything to say that Jean has since passed away. So I'm gonna read you a little quote from the New York Times obituary for Jean.

In 1973, 16,000 Weight Watchers jammed Madison Square Garden for the group's 10th anniversary. It was like a revival. Bob Hope, Pearl Bailey, and Roberta Peters were there, but the star, in a drift of white chiffon, was Mrs. Nightich, a combination Cinderella and Amy Simple McPherson with her own evangelical message. Overeating is an emotional problem with an emotional solution.

She looked as if she had never eaten a cookie in her life. So she kept the weight off the rest of her life. She sure did. So famously, she actually died at her goal weight. And so her explanation for that was her getting the emotional eating under control. Yep, through the sort of support group setup, right? But not through treatment of an eating disorder. Right. Like, through this sort of support group setup, right? But not through treatment

of an eating disorder. Right. Like, blah, blah. So jeans stays involved in the company until sort of like the 80s-ish. In 1979, she sells the company to Heinz ketchup. Okay. So Heinz ketchup fully owned Weight Watchers for like 20 years. No way. From 1979 to 1999 until they sell it to a group of investors who had just made all of their money off of no joke, a sugar factory. Yeah. I can just see your face when you found this out, Aubrey. I was so delighted that Heinz ketchup one, ketchup,

nowhere on any diet. Right. Ketchup is basically a red milkshake. It's just high fructose corn syrup as far as I can tell. Yeah, it's just, yes. Which is fine. Have ketchup. If you want ketchup, have ketchup.

But then I also think there's something in here about capitalism too, that in these sort of, I don't know, big conglomerates that buy up a bunch of companies and spin them off and sell them and merge them, whatever. They're kind of content neutral, right? Like they don't actually care whether they own a sugar factory or a weight loss company. Like it's just profit and loss margins. That's exactly right. So the company that now owns Weight Watchers is called Invis, which is short for like invest in the US. It's a Belgian

which is short for like invest in the US. It's a Belgian, a family of quote, Belgian sugar barons according to Forbes. This is what they say about Invis. Quote, private equity firm Invis is essentially the family office of Eric Wittich, a descendant of Belgian sugar barons who now lives in Monaco and spends most of his time exploring the world

in his 164-foot luxury yacht, the Eczuma, which includes an amphibious car. Whittaker, who's 72, is worth an estimated $7.6 billion. So he's just straightforwardly a James Bond villain. That's a word, that's a word, Dealey with here. His sort of investment manager apparently saw value in Weight Watchers because of the ways in which it had so many repeat users, because people would lose weight, they would drop out, they would come back, they would lose weight again, they'd stall out, part of the appeal

of Weight Watchers, it is this sort of constant state of being, and that's how Weight Watchers sells it. Is there just like, it's forever. Like, this is how you manage how you eat. Which is the same as sort of every consumer product, like people buy pringles because they like pringles, and they eat pringles pebichuli, which is fine.

But then pringles isn't promising to get you to never eat chips again. Right? Like this, this represents the complete failure of the reason that Weight Watchers exists. Total. That indicates that like maybe they don't have the secret to weight loss figured out. So we're going to backtrack a little tiny bit and start talking about like a thing that I wasn't fully tracking before doing this research is that Weight Watchers has been in pretty severe financial trouble for like a while. They'll lose like a million subscribers in a couple of corners or that kind of like really

significant hits, right? Is this why they dropped the full name because they couldn't afford all those letters anymore? Like we're trimming the fat, we're down to WW. That challenge, the financial troubles that they're in starts in earnest in the 1990s when the field starts to become more crowded, right? Like there are other diets, there are other sort of fads, but in terms of like enduring corporate, you know, faces of weight loss, weight Watchers is like the main deal. In the 90s, Jenny Craig joins the phrase. Oh yeah.

New Tris System. Future episode, future episode, future episode. Yeah, yeah. So according to Forbes, in 2012, Weight Watchers stock was $80 per share. By 2015, it was less than $4 per share. Oh wow. They lose about 7% of their subscribers in 2014.

They generally don't have men participating in weight watchers at the same level. Oh yeah. I forgot about men. What do you think actually explains it though? Like why do you think it just stopped being successful in the 90s? I mean, I do think like they were not very good at running a fucking business. Oh, okay. It genuinely sounds like, oh, what?

We're surprised that there might be competition, right? They were sort of resting on their laurels. Is what it's, that's the impression that I have gotten from the research. They also get caught off guard in the early 2010s when people start getting smartphones. So suddenly, there's this new flood of competitors. That's when we get my fitness pal. That's when we start getting all of the, like,

cronometer, that's when we start getting all of these, like, diet apps. Right. Counting steps, going to Chipotle, counting calories. Making copies. That's right. I went on a single date with a guy who's a data scientist, who specifically studies fitness apps.

And he said one of the central problems with these apps is that it's much harder to calculate the calories for foods that you make at home. So like if you're making a salad at home, it's like nobody wants to weigh out out by ounce all the sort of those Three walnuts that you put in like it's a massive pain Whereas if you go to Panera bread the calories are right there on the menu So a lot of people that have these fitness apps or these sort of point system like any sort of quantification Of their diet and exercise. It actually pushes them toward

Eating more fast food and eating more packaged foods and eating out more. Right. Anytime you eat out, it's generally going to be less healthy than when you eat at home. Yeah, totally. So Weight Watchers is continuing to take these big hits. In one quarter alone, they lose 600,000 subscribers. Wow.

And that's when they start making big moves to try and get more, again, like lifelong members. Like that is their language, that is how they talk about their sort of approach. And as their stock continues to tank, they start making really big bold, and I would argue extremely shitty choices. Yeah, when companies get desperate,

this is when they get extra an ethical right. So their first big, weird play for new members happens in 2018. Weight Watchers announced that it was going to start offering free six week memberships to teens as young as 13. Nice. So like, I don't know, do you know any 13 year olds currently?

Absolutely not. Okay. It would be so weird if I was like, yes. I know Jenny, I know Tom, I know Steve, like no. No, I just mean like, I have a niece. That's what I'm thinking of. Like, I have a niece who's 13. Just hanging out of playgrounds.

In the hide of the kids. Game man hanging out alone near some teams. Just an effeminate man in his 30s. Introducing myself to the neighborhood children. No, I do have a niece, but she is seven. Oh God, we'll get to your niece's age group in a minute. Oh, she's a... So she's a...

The reason that I ask about whether or not you know a 13 year old is like, I know fucking 13 year olds and I would be so fucking heartbroken if they started on Weight Watchers, not just because of my politics, but just because of like, you know that this is the long death march toward like a lifelong path of just like hating your body

in which you looked different, right? And I'm just like, if we can just delay the onset of that, that would be great. Way watchers, meanwhile, is like aggressively marketing specifically to those kids. And there is this really strong response. The National Eating Disorders Association issues

of statement, like a big public statement. They say, quote, in a large study of 14 and 15 year olds, dieting was the most important predictor of developing and eating disorder. They also say in that same statement that teens who diet are twice as likely to become fat, regardless of the size that they start at. You're trying to lose weight generally leads folks to gain weight. Right. What they're saying is like, you're also saying you're trying to get kids thin, but this is going to make them fat. Right.

Can you not? It's also really poor and gasoline on like hormonal fires at that age too, where kids are really, if you're 13, 14, 15, you're like just going through puberty. You're in adolescence. You're like just becoming aware of yourself yourself as having looks and being judged on your looks. So much of the experience of puberty is discovering self-consciousness. I remember when I was like 13, my parents told me I couldn't wear sweatpants to school anymore, and I was like devastated. I was like, what do you mean?

Because literally, I had not thought about the fact that other people would be assessing my appearance. Like that was not something that occurred to me. And like I'm being way too universalistic here, but like in general, self-consciousness is something that is a big part of puberty. And so when kids are in this, like they're literally discovering

how to feel self-conscious. Like throwing in your looks aren't good enough at that age. You're just unleashing Godzilla into like a Walmart at that point. Totally. This is the John Mulaney horse in a hospital bit, right? Yeah. Like it's already gonna be bad and you are hastening that and besening that

in ways that are like totally unnecessary. And then those kids are gonna end up 38 years old and still mad about the fact that they can't wear sweatpants. Yeah, in public anymore. Or 37 years old and still mad that they had to go to fucking weight watch. Or that, for example, yeah. Hypothetically.

Yes. So the National Eating Disorders Association releases this big response. Like you don't have doctors working with kids, you're not screening for eating disorders. And here is Weight Watchers response. So you ready? Give it to me.

Last week, we shared the future vision of Weight Watchers, including some changes we are making to bring health and wellness to all, not just the few. As part of that, we announced that we would open WW to teens for free. We know that the teen years are a critical life stage and opening WW to teens with consent from a parent or guardian is about families getting healthier, not dieting.

We have and we'll continue to talk with healthcare professionals as we get ready to launch this program. It's so, it's so biggest loser, trying to disguise a literal weight loss competition as some sort of form of empowerment. Yeah, it's literally called weight watchers. You're there to focus exclusively on your weight. It's not like cholesterol reading watchers.

Yeah, that's right. And like, there's sort of recasting dieting as some kind of like radical accessibility thing. Like, where are the champions of the people? We believe that wellness belongs to everyone, not just the few. I know, like that, not just the few statement. I'm like, what the fuck are you robbing, hood? It's also, I love the thing where people repackage the most fucking

normy, conventional wisdom as somehow, like forbidden knowledge. Like the idea that people need to lose weight to be healthier is the most like widespread societal belief imaginable. This thing is like it's only the elites that are trying to lose weight. It's like no, that's literally like the majority of the population at any given time believes that it is healthier to be thin. Right. Like you are not saying something that's going against the elite consensus, you're literally just repackaging the elite consensus.

Totally, none of this is new. And also, you're not new. Yes. Right, like this is what you've been doing since time immemorial. If you believed in wellness for all, not just the few, then like make your whole fucking program free. I don't know, man. So this is also where we get into some of the shortcomings of this quote-unquote

support group model. Growing up, it seemed like one of the parts about Weight Watchers that was sort of beyond reproach, right? And actually, the data on these kinds of quote-unquote support group spaces is super not good. Oh, yeah, it's bad enough that there is a term for it. Psychologists call it normative discontent. Oh, does that mean like a bunch of people just like wallowing in their sadness together? Mm-hmm, specifically around their negative body image. Oh, it's like fucking insults.

That's totally what it is. Totally. It's the ways in which people, and again, particularly women bond over disliking their bodies. So like, oh my God, my thighs are so fat. Nobody wants to see my thighs, and then someone else will go, your thighs look great, you look amazing.

I look like shit, look at this double chin. Right. Those are the conversations, right? Researchers call it fat talk, which is not my favorite, because that's not totally what's happening there, but okay. As of 2011, 93% of women reported engaging in social quote unquote fat talk,

which they define as this practice of expressing dissatisfaction with their own size or talking about quote unquoteunquote feeling fat. People who engage regularly in those conversations have lower body satisfaction rates. They're at more risk for disordered eating for fat people who are part of those conversations and on the receiving end from thinner women. It often registers as an insult, because? Because you're listening to a thinner person talk about how disgusting and fat they are

and you're like, what the fuck I'm right here? What do you think of me then? And that's also born out in the research. There's quite a bit of research. That's just like, if you think you're fat, then what do you think of me? Yikes, right? Oh my God, can I scratch like a decade-long itch right now?

Yes! Do you remember when Britney Spears was on, what was it, the VMAs or something and she had a snake around her neck? Remember? Uh-huh. And she gave like a really lackluster performance and a lot of the sort of discussion of why her performance is lackluster was that she was fat. Yeah. And she had like a baby midriff or whatever and they're like how far Britney has fallen. And I remember looking at the footage and being like she is smaller than like two thirds of American women, like she's still extremely small.

Yeah. And it just felt like reading people talk about somebody with a body like that as like iridimably fat. Just felt like it would be so fucking damaging to the population. They're like, you're looking at the photo and then you're looking at the rhetoric about the photo and you're like, oh, this is how most women look and we're being really mean to her totally totally so the research bears out also exactly what you're saying about that

right there's a some research into college students of all genders They found that Positive body image and positive body talk were linked to greater optimism, higher self of steam, stronger relationships, and like higher sexual satisfaction, stronger relationships, right? Like all of that kind of stuff sort of comes together. Just orgasms constantly having orgasms. Nice jacket.

Oh! Yes. Satisfied, happy, depression is gone, I love it. Also, like if you have looked at any of the data about how often are straight women having orgasms, it's a real fucking bleak. So anything that helps them, oh my God, it's so bad, dude. Digression, take me on this digression.

What is the digression? I've been sent the deep dive into the research for every few years, there's a big story that's like, we know more about the orgasm gap, and it's basically lesbians and biwomen are having great sex. Women who exclusively have sex with men are having shitty sex, and many of them are like never experiencing an orgasm.

That's really rough. It's so rough. So it's basically like, all men are having good sex. Gay and bisexual women are having great sex. Straight women are fucked, and like not in a way that they like. Sometimes you hear these findings from research

and you're like, why aren't we talking about this all the time every day? It seems like a huge deal. Just women are not having great sex as a population. There's also a bunch of data that's just like a bunch of women who are in long-term relationships or who are consistently dating and sleeping with people

or whatever report never having experienced an orgasm. Oh my God. Of course, asexual people exist, people who are not driven by sex exist. All of this sort of stuff is true. And also, there is a group of people who are desiring of orgasms and not getting them. And then this feels such a weird shitty window into like, how straight people

talk or don't talk about sex, like how much isn't negotiated or even spoken, right? And so what you're saying is like this wallowing effect is in some way a contributing factor in that the more self-conscious you are about your body, the less sort of likely you are to have orgasms. They don't necessarily talk about orgasms and the research what they talk about is sexual satisfaction. Like, how would you rate your satisfaction with your sex life?

Right. So that actually makes some more room, right? There are people who are like, I don't have sex and I'm satisfied with that. 10. Look, Aubrey, some of us are extremely mediocre at sex and very fine about it. Some of us are lazy, selfish lovers, you know?

So basically, like, people who engage in this kind of fat talk have, like, significantly weaker romantic relationships and friendships, so like, relationships of all stripes are weakened by this. It really does seem to have this weird weird pervasive impact on folks' lives. And Weight Watchers is a place that has sort of systematized and participated in the popularization of this phenomenon. If you have rooms full of people who are at these Weight Watchers meetings, talking about all the ways they want their bodies to be different,

talking about all the ways in which their lives to be different, talking about all the ways in which their lives will just sort of fall into place when they lose weight. They are reaching millions of subscribers over the years. It's hard to imagine that that hasn't somehow increased this sort of social expectation and ritual. But so help me understand how these meetings actually work. Because like, what is the content of one of these meetings?

Like, what does it actually look like? My recollection from being there as a kid was that people would sort of have space to share where they were at. You would talk about shared strategies for hard situations. So like, if Thanksgiving was coming up, you would talk about like, what do you do on Thanksgiving? Right.

But a lot of it was also just space for people to grieve their bodies not being what they wanted them to be. And a lot of space for people to indulge in this total magical thinking that was like, when I lose weight, my marriage will sort of heal itself. When I lose weight, I will get this promotion for my job. Right, that it becomes this sort of peg that people hang all of their hopes on. Right. And it fortifies their commitment to weight loss, but also the, like, it deepens the despair,

I think, that people feel when they don't lose weight. That's what it did for me. Again, speaking only for myself, right? I mean, that's where we get all this data that's like, I don't have the numbers in front of me, but it's something like 30% of American women say that they would rather become an alcoholic or walk away from their relationships, then get fat.

I mean, it depends on their relationships, but yes. Because they know that they're not having orgasms, Aubrey, Keep in mind. Totally, yeah. This is yet another reason why fucking 11-year-old, 13-year-old should not be in these groups, is because you're also the meta-message

that you're getting is that your weight is central to who you are. Yeah. If you're like whatever, you're larger than you'd like to be or something, that doesn't actually have to be seen as a central failing. Like, you can focus on like getting into a super dope college, reading 50 books a year,

or like there's all kinds of other things that you can be focusing on and that you can make central to your life. But you're just reinforcing this message that like your weight is who you are. Yeah, totally. This is also like a stream of sort of thought in like a feminist circles, right?

Is sort of like being sort of constantly engaged in dieting and weight loss is like part of how women disengage from like fighting for their own rights and like expecting better of the world around them, right? That it's sort of like placates women and distracts us is sort of the thinking. When what they should be mad about is the lack of orgasm. There should be people with picket signs

outside of mental health is at all times. So around the same time that Weight Watchers introduces this free membership for teens business, they also announce interestingly that they're gonna stop using before and after photos in their ads, which is a genuinely big deal. Their CEO, Mindy Grossman, goes into the press and is like talking to them about this sort of shift

away from before and after pictures. So what she says of this quote, what I find is that people want to know about the journey. They want to know what people are experiencing. They want to know how it relates to their own life. When I talk to people who have had an incredible experience with Weight Watchers, whether they have lots 10 pounds or 200 pounds, the consistent thing they are saying

is how it made them feel versus how it made them look. So they're saying, we're not going to use these photos, but also, it's not about how you look, it's just about how you feel and you feel better when you look better. Right, right. You're like, okay, fine. So I have their website in front of me.

It's just all a bunch of people who are thin. Yeah. And like playing with their kids and exercising and doing happy stuff. But there's not a lot of representation of actual fat people. So the project is not like to humanize fat people necessarily.

It's like, let's get you thin. Right. It's not like, look at all these fat people, do like eating healthy foods get you thin. Right. It's not like, look at all these fat people, do it like eating healthy foods and doing whatever. Right. And whatever size they end up at, it's fine. Right, they're still very clear that they are, wait, watch this, right?

Yeah. Interestingly, this is the same time, 2018, is the same time that they changed their name to WW. Right. Their tagline at the time was wellness that works. They launched an incentive program called wellness wins. And it feels like this microcosm of a larger trend that you and I have talked about,

which is this kind of search and replace that searches for weight loss and replaces it with wellness, but everything else is exactly the same. It's now just coded language for weight loss, right? Like when we talk about quote unquote wellness, what we're still talking about on some level is weight loss, but it feels more aspirational than just weight loss. So it feels more neutral or empowering

or something to people when it is truly just like diets, just change their clothes. I mean, I guess the idea is you're skipping the middle man because the whole the rhetoric around weight loss is you must lose weight to be healthy. And so now instead of saying you must lose weight, you're saying you must be healthy. And the way to be healthy is to lose weight. So the same message is embedded in there. That's exactly right.

So the next year, just after this rebrand after the free membership for teens, Weight Watchers makes another big wild swing. They acquire an app, like a smartphone app, called Kerbo. Did you hear anything about Kerbo? Kerbo, no, never heard of it. It is an app that is designed and marketed towards kids as young as eight. It's like cartoon evil.

It's so fucking dark, dude. My niece is 13, my nephew is nine, and when I think about either of them engaging in these programs, it makes me want to cry, barf and punch all at once. Once again, because there had been this almost like trial run of backlash to the like free teen memberships,

you can imagine when they're like anyway now we're getting younger right like the same group of people like have a freaking freak out like fuck off eight year olds I feel like they only did it to take away the backlash from the teenagers like let's get them to not be pissed off about the 15 year olds just like for eight year olds in there and then everybody's gonna forget about the other stuff yeah be pissed off by the 13 year olds, just like throw the year olds in there. And then everybody's gonna forget about the other stuff. Yeah, be pissed off about this other garbage. So once again, Nita, the National Eating Disorder Association

releases a specific statement on this. They asked them to pull the app. There's even an organization in the UK called Obesity UK. And they're like, this app is irresponsible. Is what they say publicly. And I'm like, this app is irresponsible. They say publicly and I'm like, fuck man, if the obesity epidemic quite a poor organization,

they're like, your app is irresponsible. Like, Jesus. Even like the institutional fat phobia institutions are like, let's slow down. Right. So like, things sort of have turned around a little tiny bit for Weight Watchers, but then it has sort of returned to this downturn.

Basically, the single biggest boon to Weight Watchers success today is Oprah Winfrey. Really? In 2015, Oprah bought a 10% stake in the company. Oh. So like, after that happens, the company breaks the 1 million member mark that they've been sort of looking at.

Their profits shoot up about 20%. So like the Oprah effects is huge. It's not the program, right? It's just Oprah. Yeah. But even with the Oprah effects, like they start losing subscribers again by like the end of that year.

Do we know why? The way that I sort of read all of this, and this is just my own sort of like assumptions, is Oprah brings you a big new bump of people, right? It brings you a ton of Oprah loyalists, lovely people remembering their spirits, and they still have the same functional problems with Weight Watchers that they've always had.

Right. They got a big boost of people, and then I suspect they had attrition at like a similar rate that they've always had. Right. They got a big boost of people, and then I suspect they had a Trishon at like a similar rate that they normally do, but because that initial boost was so big, the Trishon looks huge too. Yeah. When they get Oprah, they also get the Vision 2020 tour. Have you and I talked about Vision 2020?

Vision 2020, no. Oh my God, Mike. So in 2020, before we knew that 2020 was garbage in like January and February, Oprah does this national tour. And it's about how to become your best self and how to set your goals for the year. And da, da, da, da, da.

But ultimately, it is sponsored by Weight Watchers. Oh God. At one point, they have like NYPD officers or New York Fire Department officers who get up on stage and they're like, we all did Weight Watchers and here's how much weight we lost. Julien Huff, who's on Dancing with the Stars, comes on and does her like weird,

like, I can't remember what it's called, Tango, salsa. What should you do? No, it's not dancing. It's like some combination of like energy work. Like it's like raky plus yoga plus cardio kind of thing. That's less cool than salsa. Jennifer Lopez, Lady Gaga, the rock. Like it's a very bizarre thing to have this weight loss tour

and have all of these people who are famously thin. Do not take diet and exercise advice from the rock. If you learn nothing from the show, do not have you seen those like men's health articles where they walk you through what he eats in a day. Listen, man, sometimes a guy just wants to eat 17 pounds of cod. That's the thing, it's like 7.30 a.m.

Dried cod and like a handful of peanuts, 9.30, more cod and like a bowl of yogurt with nothing on it. And then like 10, cod, like whatever you're doing in your life, do not emulate the fucking rock, man. I love fish. I am a major seafood person and I absolutely saw that and was like, this is upsetting. And so it's so upsetting.

So here's where we get into the research around the effectiveness of Weight Watchers. John's Hopkins does some research and they found that Weight Watchers participants lost three to five percent more than a control group. It's a real nominal. That's like four extra pounds. There's one other study that gets a ton of big splashy headlines that are like,

Weight Watchers is twice as effective. This is like a big get. Weight Watchers loves pointing to this study, but the actual numbers in this study are like not that impressive. So after a full year, people in standard medical care lost five pounds, and people on Weight Watchers lost 11 pounds. Right. Dude, I am 350 pounds. 11 pounds makes me 339 pounds. Right. I am not no longer fat, right? Yeah, always be aware of relative statistics. I remember a friend of mine who worked at a small town newspaper got a press release from a church saying it was the fastest growing church in the city that he lived in.

It's that it added 50% to its congregation over the course of one year, which was like totally unprecedented. And then he looked into it and they went from eight people to 12 people. It's like, yeah, it still fits in a mini van totally. And also wait watchers has before and after photos on their website, it's like, yeah, it still fits in a mini van. Totally. And also Weight Watchers has before and after photos on their website, by the way. They have what are called member stories. I've got three of them, the three that they feature

on their website. One of them, a woman loses 108 pounds. Another is a couple who lost a combined 91 pounds, and another is a woman who lost 89 pounds. So before and after stories that they're featuring in their marketing is not 11 pounds. That's right. So they're still sort of like projecting out,

like this could be you. You could be the 91 pounds person. Oh wait, there's, although I should say, in the headline of all of these stories, there's an asterisk after pounds. What? It says Alicia, 32, has lost 89 pounds asterisk. So then when you go to the page, you have to click on the headline and then the asterisk

says, people following the WW program can expect to lose one to two pounds a week. So that's good, disclaimer. And then it says, Alisha lost weight on a prior program and is continuing on my WeightWodgers. So the weight loss that they're advertising on their website was literally from another diet. I truly was like really hoping that you were gonna be like, this person lost 89 pounds, and then the astronauts looks like British pounds sterling.

Oh my god, like, this person lost like a hundred and eighty bucks on their dumb diet that didn't work. That's on you for thinking we're talking about weight. We never said weight. Again, it's like really hard to study the effectiveness of this because of how many times its formula has changed, right? And these are the years when, wait, what's your exchange with their plan? You ready? They change their plan in 1963, 1979, 1980, 1984, 1988, 1997, 2000, 2004, 2008, 2010, 2012, 2015, and 2017.

So like as time goes on, the plan is changing more and more and more. Yeah, you could really smell the desperation with those last few. Totally. So when we talk about like, we watchers is the one that really works. It's the one that stood the test of time. I'm like, has it? It seems like it has changed a lot. Now we're really coming up with sort of, now that's what I call maintenance phase themes.

So much of what we talk about is just like capitalistic solutions to public health issues are doomed. They're disguised as solutions, but they exist to enrich shareholders. Yes, and they're not doing things that are like, this will help you manage your blood sugar. They're trying to solve the problem of like, why are there so many fat people?

Yes. And I fundamentally don't think that is a public health problem. You know what I mean? I think that's a kind of person who exists in the world. And using that is this perfect proxy for health. Absolutely. They're bragging about Alicia, who seems nice, losing 89 pounds, but they're not talking about like Alicia's cholesterol levels or resting heart rate or like, what's going on

in her life? Like how? Like, what is she able to do? What is her income? Allow her to do. There's no broader context of the individual. Totally, totally. Listen, if it were not gonna be ugly as sin,

I would 100% leave this podcast record and immediately make a, now that's what I call maintenance phase, logo t-shirt. Yeah. But I don't think anybody wants that logo on t-shirt. No one wants that graphic design back. It's so ugly.

But I'm very delighted. Right now that's what I call maintenance. So yeah, what are our concluding thoughts, every what do you wanna leave us with? Look, like a lot of people have a lot of like strong, like fond or positive feelings about way watchers, and sort of this sense that it is like the thing that works, the thing that has stood the test of time,

all of that kind of stuff. Honestly, I had some of those assumptions going into this research and what I have found is that that's just not true. What I found was like this business that's really struggling with a business model that doesn't really seem to work, right, with people that maybe lose a little bit more weight, but there's no evidence that they keep it off. They just keep people tithing to weight watchers, right? Like in a funny way, I have a friend who's in like public health world, she'll talk about her favorite viruses as being the ones that are like sophisticated enough

to keep their host alive. Right, right. Weight watchers is kind of a sophisticated version of a diet, right? They keep you host alive. Weight Watchers is kind of a sophisticated version of a diet, right? They keep you engaged effectively in a way that other diets don't necessarily. And that's more a testament to their ability to keep consumers engaged than it is a testament to their ability to help people actually lose weight. So you respect weight Watchers the way you respect a tapeworm. You know?

Nature has designed you for a purpose and you fulfill that purpose. But like, yeah, I mean, like they have done a good job of sort of hitting home this lifetime member thing and getting people to identify with the lifetime member thing. It's such a missed opportunity because like fat people really do need support. Maybe your spouse doesn't understand what you're going through. Maybe your spouse doesn't understand what you're going through.

Maybe your boss doesn't understand what you're going through. You need other people that share that experience. But instead, it became something that was just another avenue for people to feel shitty about themselves. And so that to me is like the huge bummer, is that if people were getting together in each other's houses on Wednesday nights, like they could have passed some cool laws,

like they could have radicalized cool laws, like they could have radicalized each other, like they could have done all kinds of really cool stuff and it just didn't happen. Right, they could have had, they could have shared skills around like what do you say when people, you know, give you shit about what you're eating? How do you push back on dickheads, yes? But because they're sort of centered around this idea

that your body is changeable and it's your responsibility to change it, not only did it not sort of go around this idea that your body is changeable and it's your responsibility to change it. Not only did it not sort of go down the road that you're talking about, it actually pushes folks I think further away from that road by saying your body can change, it's your responsibility to change it. Therefore this is in no way a legitimate identity. You shouldn't form relationships with other fat people because you're not going to be fat. They're gonna be sad and fat.

You're gonna be happy and cool and thin. Please only think of your body as a pit stop on the way to your ultimate sort of like destiny of becoming a thin person. It is a big part of the fantasy of a lot of restrictive eagbous orders as well. And also in all of those groups, the whole time, they could have been talking about how to give each other more orgasms.

Who are the men in your life? Why aren't they delivering? Look, man, if they had way watchers meetings that were like, here's how to have great sex as a fat person. I don't want to tell you how to do your job, way watchers, but let me know. Come on. Get in touch. That is a major gap in the market.

Are you going to be a group leader from now on? No! Thank you. you