Mark Bell's Power Project - 6x Iron Man Gold Medalist on the Secrets to WINNING || MBPP Ep. 946

Episode Date: June 14, 2023

In Episode 946, Mark "The Grip" Allen, Mark Bell, Nsima Inyang, and Andrew Zaragoza talk about Mark's training approach and secret to winning 6 Iron Man Races. Sponsors of today's show: ➢ https://vuoriclothing.com/powerproject to automatically save 20% off your first order at Vuori! ➢ https://www.eightsleep.com/powerproject to automatically save $150 off the Pod Pro at 8 Sleep! ➢ https://goodlifeproteins.com/ Code POWERPROJECT to save up to 25% off your Build a Box   Follow Mark Allen on IG: https://www.instagram.com/markallengrip/   New Power Project Website: https://powerproject.live Join The Power Project Discord: https://discord.gg/yYzthQX5qN Subscribe to the new Power Project Clips Channel: https://youtube.com/channel/UC5Df31rlDXm0EJAcKsq1SUw   Special perks for our listeners below! ➢https://drinkag1.com/powerproject Recieve a year supply of Vitamin D3+K2 & 5 Travel Packs! ➢ https://withinyoubrand.com/ Code POWERPROJECT to save 15% off supplements!   ➢ https://markbellslingshot.com/ Code POWERPROJECT to save 15% off all gear and apparel!   ➢ https://mindbullet.com/ Code POWERPROJECT to save 15% off Mind Bullet!   ➢ Better Fed Beef: https://betterfedbeef.com/pages/powerproject   ➢ https://hostagetape.com/powerproject Free shipping and free bedside tin!   ➢ https://thecoldplunge.com/ Code POWERPROJECT to save $150!!   ➢ Enlarging Pumps (This really works): https://bit.ly/powerproject1 Pumps explained: https://youtu.be/qPG9JXjlhpM   ➢ https://www.vivobarefoot.com/us/powerproject to save 15% off Vivo Barefoot shoes!   ➢ https://marekhealth.com Use code POWERPROJECT10 for 10% off ALL LABS at Marek Health! Also check out the Power Project Panel: https://marekhealth.com/powerproject Use code POWERPROJECT for $101 off!   ➢ Piedmontese Beef: https://www.piedmontese.com/ Use Code POWER at checkout for 25% off your order plus FREE 2-Day Shipping on orders of $150   Follow Mark Bell's Power Project Podcast ➢ https://www.PowerProject.live ➢ https://lnk.to/PowerProjectPodcast ➢ Insta: https://www.instagram.com/markbellspowerproject ➢ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/markbellspowerproject   FOLLOW Mark Bell ➢ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/marksmellybell ➢https://www.tiktok.com/@marksmellybell ➢ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MarkBellSuperTraining ➢ Twitter: https://twitter.com/marksmellybell   Follow Nsima Inyang ➢ https://www.breakthebar.com/learn-more ➢YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/NsimaInyang ➢Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nsimainyang/?hl=en ➢TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@nsimayinyang?lang=en   Follow Andrew Zaragoza on all platforms ➢ https://direct.me/iamandrewz   #PowerProject #Podcast #MarkBell #FitnessPodcast #markbellspowerproject

What was going on with, I guess, taking a break or training? It's so easy to be the champion of the training day, and it's very hard to be the champion of the race. What can I do today that will test me, challenge me, that I can also wake up tomorrow and continue to do that? Training optimally rather than maximally. Absolutely. That's the word right there. Part of training to be a competitive athlete at the best that you can

is to create aspects of your training that is more than you're ever going to have to deal with in a race. I think that's something for people to kind of keep in mind too. Sport should be something that enhances the big picture of your life. Were you pretty diligent about that? This time every day I'm going to take a nap. It wasn't a conscious choice, but it was definitely something that I did. How fast did you get? 525 minute mile aerobically. Why are you the GOAT? You've had six aerobically. Why are you the GOAT? You've had six Ironmans, but what makes you the GOAT?

All right, so first things first. We're here today with Mark Allen, and we have to know how you got the nickname The Grip. Yeah, The Grip. You know, there was early in my career, I did a lot of group rides, and it was in San Diego. And there was this one particular ride that started in North County, San Diego, and would go up through San Clemente through the Camp Pendleton Marine Base. And it was a training ride, but it was always a little bit of a race, right? But the question was, when was it going to get going? And this one year, I had really started to make some gains in my cycling. It was about three years into my career. And, you know, usually the first 30, 40 minutes,

everybody's BSing and joking and, you know, it's fun and friendly. And then finally, somebody gets going, right? Well, I was in this super accelerated sort of getting better mode and I wanted to get going right away. And so five minutes into it, I'd just get down in the drops and just start pushing, and this one guy goes, uh-oh, he's got the grip, hold on. And it just sort of stuck. He kept calling me The Grip,

and that sort of ended up being sort of the nickname that a lot of people called me. He actually still calls me The Grip. He doesn't even call me Mark anymore. That's awesome. Yeah, when a nickname kind of turns into legend, it's always a great thing. Mark, or I'm sorry, Brad Kern was telling me that you oftentimes would be training with people, and everyone would be training really hard, everyone's, you know, trying to do their best and they're all triathletes and everyone's just pushing, pushing, pushing.

But as he put it, you would just kind of disappear sometimes and no one knew kind of where you went. He's like, I don't know, he went off in the woods or something. Where would you go and why? Like what was going on with that particular style of, I guess, taking a break or training? You know, it's real easy to use that group to motivate you. And that's one great reason why, you know, it's good to have training partners and people you work out with because you kind of help push each other and motivate each other. But it can also be a double-edged sword. You know, like if it starts to be a little bit of a competition and it's a day where you're supposed to be going a little bit more moderate you can push too hard

and if you do that too much then the next thing you know you get to the race and you've you've left you've left your best moments out on the training ground and it you know it's it's so easy to be the champion of the training day and it's very hard to be the champion of the race and you know my goal was never to make a statement in training that wasn't particularly, it wasn't a day where I should be doing that. And so a lot of days, you know, I'd show up for the group workouts and these guys are like, you know, they're ready to rock and roll. And I'm like, go, I'll see you guys, you know, because I knew that if I did that today, tomorrow I'd wake up wasted

and I couldn't do that other key workout that I needed to do. And so I really had this kind of mantra in my training that I just wanted to be steady. I knew that I had to be patient. Deep core fitness changes don't take place overnight. They do not take place at the speed of Twitter, right? You know what I mean? The human body is so good at maintaining where it's at, and to shift that, you just have to coax it into shape.

That's my opinion anyway. You just kind of keep coaxing it so that you're tricking your body into thinking, oh, today is the same as yesterday. But really when you look back over a big span of time, you've made huge gains, right? Like you look back two, three, four months from where you started and all of a sudden you're going like, wow, look at that. And that's when you have made those deep core changes that are sustainable. if you make big leaps all the time which you will do if you train hard all the time you're also you're you're drawing down you know one on your energy reserves that it's hard to put back that energy quickly secondly you're probably not fully recovering from the big key workouts that you're

doing and so even though you you jump up quickly all of a sudden you hit a plateau and then you start sliding down the other side and you can get injured, you can get sick, you can get burned out. And so anyway, I had seen a lot of athletes do that sort of quick rise and fall each season. And I'm like, hmm, okay, that doesn't work. And I tried that in the beginning too. I was like, ooh, I'm so excited. I'm going to like go out there and smash it. Well, I used to sound like Chris Rock.

Go out and smash it. And I looked at what the other guys were doing in the short races, like in the run, and they were running close to five-minute pace. So my mindset the first couple of years that I was competing was in every single run, even if it was for a quarter mile, I was going to go five-minute pace. And I could do it, and I got some decent results in races, but I also saw that my training was inconsistent because I would get sick. I'd have these niggling injuries. I'd feel like get out of bed the next day like, holy crap, how can I train again?

Like get out of bed the next day, like, holy crap, how can I train again? And, you know, there's, you know, we have like these isms, right? You got like perfectionism, you know, and it's like, hmm, perfectionism. Or there's like criticism, you know. But for me, it was like this thing, like I wanted to have this thing that I don't know if I, it's not even a word. Like I wanted to have this consistent ism, you know, like to just be consistent with training. Anyway, so I'm working my way around to your question there. That's a long ass way to get there, but. I like it. You know, a human body is, when you train for sure, when you go a little bit past your fitness level,

that's how you keep going into that next level. But you have to put that energy back in, replenish, repair, rejuvenate. And sometimes one night's sleep will do it. Sometimes an easy workout the next day will do it. But if you get caught up in that group workout all the time, you can end up just exhausted and fatigued and you're not going to be consistent. And if you are not consistent with your training, you will never reach your peak plateau. And so, you know, if you're thinking about consistency, it's like, what can I do today that will test me,

challenge me, that I can also wake up tomorrow and continue to do that. And the day after that, and the day after that, and not only that, but six months down the road and next season, you know, you can be really damn good for a year and then you fall off the cliff. You know, I was good for 15 years and I continued to improve for 15 years as a triathlete, which, you know, is kind of unheard of, but it has to do with that consistency.

So when you would quote unquote disappear, it's not like you weren't training. You just kind of went off on your own and did a little bit more of your own thing, staying in your own lane. Yeah. Nobody was excited to see me go moderate. They're like, come on, dude. Come on up. Take a pull. I'm like, no, if I go to the front, I'll be going too hard. My heart rate will skyrocket, and I'm still just doing my – Like, hey, everybody, let's run a 10-minute mile. It's like it would be slow for most people, right, for most of the guys you're running.

Yeah, and it doesn't excite your ego to go moderate. Like you want to come home and go like, yeah, I crushed it. I had like a badass workout and I'm exhausted. And, you know, you have that feeling like you really did something. When you're training aerobically, you know, building that just consistent fitness base, you come home and you feel like, did I do much? You know, did I – because I feel good. You know, I'm not wasted. i don't feel like i've got

to lay on the couch for five hours yeah training optimally rather than maximally absolutely that's the word right there that's the difference i'm really curious about this man like because i i know like i don't know when your first iron man was um but when you were training did you ever especially when you got really good did you ever have training sessions or how often was it that you had training sessions that you felt would kill you? Or did you never, or like afterwards you're like, Oh God, that was a, that was a rough one. Or did you never have those training sessions and you always pushed it maybe a little bit more sometimes, but never so much that you felt trained? but never so much that you felt trained. I had those key sessions where I had to get really psyched up for because I knew that they were either going to be really fast or really long

or maybe a combination of both. And I knew that those were going to be the ones where if I could get through them at the level that I was planning to, I would come home and just be like, whoa. But I also knew that when I would do those, that I was going to build in a lot of recovery afterwards. So like one example, one of my super big Ironman training days, and again, I would do only five of these days over the entire season.

How long is a season? Like I'd start training in January and then Ironman was always in October, so 10 months. So just five of those days were like this. Five of these particular days that I would intersperse throughout the year where I would swim about 30 minutes, get out of the water, bike 150 miles, seven hours-ish, and then get off my bike and run 30 minutes. So it was an eight-hour training day.

And the way I would do it is that, you know, the swim would be pretty steady but not super fast. And then the bike ride, the first half would be just steady, kind of at Ironman pace. And then the second half of the bike ride, the second 75 miles, which is, you know, that's a long ride in itself, right? But this is the second half of the bike ride, the second 75 miles, which is, you know, that's a long ride in itself, right? But this is the second half. Then I would just, I would push it way beyond Ironman pace, faster, as long as I could hold it. And then I'd back off and then I'd push it again. I'd back off,

push again, back off. And then when I got off the bike and ran, I would run literally those 30 minutes as fast as I could. That was a big demand on my body. And that was way beyond anything that anybody who's sane would even think about doing more than a few times throughout the year. So I would do a couple of them early in the season and then a couple closer to Ironman with a lot of recovery in between where the next week or two weeks, there wasn't anything that was pushing me toward that limit of like, oh boy. So for sure, you know, if you're, if you are going for like a world-class level of something, you have to have sessions that have elements that, that maybe push you beyond anything you're going to actually have to do in competition. You know, so part of training to be a competitive athlete at

the best that you can is to sort of create aspects of your training that maybe not for the entire thing, but one part of it is more than you're ever going to have to deal with in a race. So, for example, let's say you're going to be doing a triathlon and the bike ride is hilly. So in some of your training, you would try to find hills that are either longer than the climbs that you're going to have in the race and or steeper so that when you get in the race, it kind of feels like, oh, I've done this before. This ain't no big thing. You know what I mean? I've done this before. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

This ain't no big thing. You know what I mean? I like how you have this, like, altered ego, other voice. I wonder if this was going on when you were doing these triathlons. You got this. You got this. You know, and people talk about, well, what were you thinking during the race? You know, because, like, you're eight hours out there.

You got to be thinking something, you know? And they go, did you have mental, did you have like mental cues that were keeping you going? And I go, you know, I tried sort of like that visualization stuff. Right. And, and for sure I visualize like, you know, kind of how I wanted to feel on the swim and the bike and the run. And, and I said, yeah, I would sort of create these like positive run. And I said, yeah, I would sort of create these like positive affirmation phrases, right? You know, so you can probably think of what you might've told yourself in advance of the race. Like I'm cutting through the wind like a knife. I'm running as light as a feather on this marathon, you know, I'll be honest, that shit did not work for me. And here's why. I mean, first of all, in the middle of the race in Ironman,

which takes, you know, the fastest I went was eight hours, seven minutes and change, right? So that's a long time. As the race wears on and you become more and more fatigued, you switch out of any kind of logical thinking mindset. And so it can become very, very hard to even remember it. Like, what was that positive affirmation? But then the bottom line was like, if I could remember that I feel light as a feather while I'm running on the marathon, not in a million years would I believe that. Because when I needed that positive affirmation, I felt like I weighed a thousand pounds and I could barely keep moving. So I did not even

believe myself. And so, you know, I would, I would tell people, uh, the best place for me to race from was when I could finally just get my mind to be quiet. And, and you know how that is. When you're trying to do something that is bringing the best out from inside of you, whether it's creating something at work, whether it's writing something, whether it's pulling out an athletic performance that is going to be, you're going to look back and go, wow. That comes from that place where you're going beyond thought, where everything is just like you've heard many people say in that flow where your mind is quiet. And when your mind is quiet, it's like if you feel lousy, it doesn't affect you, you know, because you stopped judging how you're feeling

and comparing that to how you think you'll finish up. You don't care because you're just in, you're fully engaged in the activity in this moment right now. And you know how that is, like when you're fully engaged in what you're doing and you stop that thinking and analyzing and going, is this going to get me where I want to go? You know, is this going to get me the win? Is this good? Is this bad? Am I feeling good? Am I, you know.

When you're just in that moment and everything is flowing, you're optimized. You know, you're moving faster than any thought can take you. And so the negative thought, the negative feelings don't affect you. And you don't need to be feeling positive to keep going because you're fully engaged and you're right here right now. And you know there's this finish line that you need to get to or this thing that you're trying to create or this experience you're trying to create or this experience you're

trying to have. But the meat of it is right here, right now. There's almost like nothingness, right? Like you get a little lost. You're like, where was I for the last hour? Like, oh, I was right here. That's exactly what I was going to say. When you're in that space, time goes and you're like, what?

And like in Kona at the Ironman, the bike course is on this highway and they have mile markers every mile. And so when you're not in that space, from one mile marker to the next feels like a half an hour, right? But when you're in that space where your mind is quiet and you've stopped judging good, bad, you know, you stop whining, you stop worrying, and you're engaged, all of a sudden you go, wow, four miles went by. What? What? That was cool. Yeah, it's interesting. It's hard to get into that zone. It takes a lot of patience. I think I don't even know how you would get into that. For you, was there anything you would do to get into that or did you just kind of end up there sometimes? Yeah, there's a couple things.

I mean, one, you can practice it. The easiest way to practice is to start with super simple, simplistic. So one of the people that helped me to learn how to do that was a gentleman, Brant Secunda, who teaches a tradition that comes from a very primitive indigenous culture in Mexico, the Huichol people. And they work on keeping their mind quiet. They say when your mind is quiet, then you can hear the big answers to life. The answers to the big questions you have can come.

When you're busy thinking and talking to yourself, you're not quiet enough to hear sort of that intuitive side of yourself. So anyway, one of the things he said is just go watch a sunrise, watch a sunset, go sit by a river, go look at a mountain. And here, you guys are so close to the Sierras, you go up there in the winter and you look around and you go, wow. And in that moment where you're going, wow, your mind is quiet. You forget about your credit card debt. You forget about your work problems. You forget about your failures, quote, unquote, and you're just like, wow. And all those things just happen, you know, if you go to like Tahoe or something

and you look across and there's snow on the other side of the mountain and there's, you know, no snow and it's green and there's leaves and there's squirrels and there's birds and there's all this stuff happens on its own the plants grow the flowers bloom no one has to do anything they just it's just everything's just happening yeah and so it's you're kind of in that like you said almost like that no space but every space at the same time and so that's one way you can kind of experience it you know just it's so simple. Go outside. Go walk for five minutes. You're feeling like stuck or you're feeling frustrated.

Go outside and just walk for five minutes. I guarantee you the second you walk out that door, you're kind of going to just go, all right. So that's one. That's sort of like a start. And as much as it sounds sort of like it must be a natural state, we have to practice experiencing it. And the more you practice experiences in it, the more you can go to it when you need to. And so then the second step is then to also practice that when you are training. And I guarantee you, every single training session you have, you're going

to have that opportunity to get yourself to be quiet. So, you know, you're doing a workout, even if it's an easy workout, there might be a moment where you're kind of going, okay, I want this to be over, or I got something else to do, or, you know, or if it's a hard workout, you're like, I don't know if I can make it through this, or I shouldn't have done this, I should have rested more, or it's too hard, you know.

You know, if you're sort of aware, you'll know when this little nugget inside your skull is like chattering. You know, when that committee is going off in there and they're going, you know, you're whining to yourself. So every single workout you have, you have that opportunity to be quiet. And so if you have a big set coming up, whether it's in the pool or you're doing a weight set or a climb coming up, right before, just go, there's that quiet space. And then you're in it. You're fully in it. So again, every single day is an opportunity to practice it. And then as you practice that, then when you are in your competition,

first of all, you start to see when you're, you become aware of when you're whining. And when you are whining, you want it to be over. It's too hot. It's too windy. My legs are killing me.

That other guy's pulling away and he shouldn't be. I should have done different training, you know, wah, wah, wah. And you might have five minutes then when you're sort of back in that quiet space. Man, I do a lot of whining. Well, and that's the thing, you know. You get in the quiet space, it's not like I have reached nirvana and I will be here forever. No.

You're going to have to go back to that a hundred times. You know, in an Ironman, there's, there's hundreds of times where you're going, I don't know if I can do it. I don't, you know, I want to quit. My legs are killing me. And you got to just bring it back, keep bringing it back, bring it back, bring it back. And so, you know, the guys who have not practices, gals who have not practices, You know, the guys who have not practiced this, gals who have not practiced this, you're in an event, your mind's giving you thoughts that are not helping you out. If it takes you 10 minutes to kind of get back into that space of like, all right, I got this, you've wasted 10 minutes of optimized time. So instead of being at 100%, maybe you were at 68% because part of your brain was busy whining,

telling yourself negative thoughts, questioning, having this fear that, you know, it's going to be death and doom if things don't turn out right. But the experienced athlete who has practiced kind of getting into what I call that champion's mindset, which is very peaceful yet powerful at the same time.

You're quiet. You have a steadiness. No matter what's going on outside of you, no matter how much chaos is going on in the event, there's part of you that's still calm and part of you that even if you're feeling like, I'm not really sure if I can finish this, you're still, there's a sense like,

somehow I am going to, somehow I am going to get through this moment. And then in the next step, all of a sudden you start to come back and next thing you know, you're at a hundred percent. If you, if you transition through that period in 15 seconds instead of 10 minutes, you've only lost 15 seconds of optimized time instead of 10 minutes. And so that became a real key for me in my racing because I knew that, yeah, I have a pretty good genetic toolbox, but I have seen the test with some of these other guys. I know what they've done in their training. And I know that on paper, I'm pretty good, but I'm not the best by the numbers. So where am I going to find that element that will help take me to that top level? Is this something that you like went and seeked out?

Like you sought this out? You went to different countries and stuff like that and learned some of these things from other people? Or was it intuitive? Well, you know, growing up, I was a swimmer, competitive swimmer. And, you know, I was inspired by the 1968 Mexico City Olympics. And the thing that, you know, it was the first Olympics I'd ever seen because we didn't even have a TV before then. That time before TV. Really?

Now nobody watches. They watch their phone. But anyway, you know, so I was just mesmerized like Olympics and, you know, but the thing that really mesmerized me were the distance swimmers because they were swimming, you know, men were going 1,500, women 800. they thought women could grow at 1500 meters, you know, crazy, right? So anyway, it amazed me because for me to swim 25 yards was like a near-death experience. You know, I was 10 years old and like, if I swam across a pool, I was like purple and hanging on, you know? And so I thought, how can they do that? And about a month after that, there was an ad for the local swim team and I was growing up in Palo Alto. And they were having tryouts.

My mom goes, why don't you try? You love those swimmers. And I'm like, I can't do that. I can't. And finally, she gave me that shove. And I went. And I went to the tryout. And I actually swam four laps.

Because I saw these other kids going like this. And I'm like, wow, okay. And I'm like, whoa, I swam four laps, you know. And so it was just one of those moments like, whoa, you know, this is super exciting. But I was never outstanding as a swimmer. Like I was in the lower to middle half of all swimmers. And, you know, so but one of the things that held me back, part of it was genetics, I was in the lower to middle half of all swimmers. But one of the things that held me back, part of it was genetics, but a lot of it was my mindset.

Like if somebody got a half a stroke ahead of me, I'm like, oh, they're ahead. They're pulling away. They're going to win. I'm not. And so that was my swimmer tape. and the very first triathlon that I was in years later after I'd stopped swimming I came off the bike in fourth place and about a mile into it this guy passed me and so my swimmer tape started going

you know, oh he passed me so he's going to get fourth and I'm going to get fifth and it was like the first time the light bulb went on and I thought, it's not over yet. You know, maybe, maybe it's not written in stone yet. And something just relaxed in me. And I'm just like, oh, and all of a sudden I realized, the dude's not actually pulling away anymore. And then I started to come back on him. I'm like, okay, this is kind of cool. You know, this has never happened before. And I passed him and I, and I went on and I did finish in fourth place. And that was like an aha moment. Like, wow, you know, what goes on in your mind,

just sort of, it has a huge impact on, on your performance. And so that was the first moment where I was like, I need to figure out how to work on this. And it wasn't a, it wasn't a structured process of how I got there. Just a lot of happenstance. Like I said, I ended up studying with this gentleman, Brant Secunda, and I still do. And it became a very integral part to my success as a triathlete and carrying on beyond that. Question about that. So you're – because in 83 you got bronze. So when was that triathlon that you got fourth? It was a short distance triathlon, Olympic distance race in 1982, the year before.

Okay. the year before. And, uh, you know, it was, uh, my, my original sort of triathlon goal was I I'd seen the Ironman on TV in February of 1982. And it was like this, Oh my God, look at this. You know, these, these people are nuts. They're going to do 2.4 mile swim, 112 mile bike marathon. And it's, they're going to do it all in one day. How can you do that? You know? But, um, obviously they were doing it. And it was on ABC Wide World of Sports. And Jim McKay, it was the Julie Moss crawling to the finish line event that a lot of people saw. And anyway, so I thought, I have to just go do that thing once.

And so that was my goal was to just go to Hawaii. I saw this in February. I'd never biked a run before. And, you know, I was 24. So, of course, at 24, you think you can do anything in 10 months or, you know, get ready for it. So I was in October. I was actually in the lead with the guy who ended up winning, Dave Scott. But then my derailleur broke. And so I had to drop out. But that was also kind of a light bulb moment. I had been in the lead of the Ironman, the biggest race in the sport, for a couple hours with this guy who was really setting the standard at the time, Dave Scott. And so even though I didn't finish that first year, there was that thought

like, wow, maybe if I take my time and really develop my experience and skills and everything, maybe I can win this amazing race. And shortly after that, I was invited to be on a triathlon team where they actually were paying some of the athletes a salary. And, you know, they asked me, they go, do you want to be on our team? And I go, what does that mean? They go, well, you know, we'll pay you like a thousand bucks a month. And I'm like, cha-ching, you know. I mean, that was like hitting the lottery. A thousand bucks back then was like, you know, a gazillion now.

I mean, that was like hitting the lottery. A thousand bucks back then was like a gazillion now. And so anyway, so then 83, the next year I came back and I actually finished the race, finished in third, which was something that I was super, super excited about, obviously. The following year I came back and I finished in fifth, which was lower down, but I was actually closer to the leader at the finish line. And so, and then the year after that, I finished in second. And so at that point, after four Ironmans finishing second, I thought, okay, next year is going to be mine. You know, like, why not? I'm really curious about about this is iron man the type of sport where most guys continue to get better as they get older because your last iron man you were 37 years old and you had six golds in between 37 and before that so like do guys usually do they hit those

peaks when they're older or was that just because you took care of yourself and didn't you know kept yourself in the race generally the like the sweet window is between 28 and 34 28 35 you know part of it is it takes um i think it takes a while to just develop that tenacity of mindset you know and so uh maybe an 18-year-old might have a lot of physical capability, but they just don't have the mind to stay on task for eight hours like that. But then once you hit around, once you hit around 35, then there's a shift that happens, you know, and I felt it. I felt it. A lot of guys feel it. So then it really becomes very, very important to put a much even more high priority on your recovery and

doing less miles that are done just to sort of pump up your ego or pump up your self-confidence. Cut those out because it's doing nothing to actually get you faster. And so from 35 up through 37, that was where it really became a different game for me as far as getting ready. So like that last year when I was 37 competing, you know, I'd won five Ironman titles. I was hoping to win the sixth because that would tie Dave Scott's record of six Ironman titles. But I could tell my body was not able to manage the same volume of training that I had done earlier that had gotten me the success for those first five races. And so, you know, the young guys, when I said that I was coming back for that final time, they're like, come on, baby. We're going to chew you up and spit you out all over this lava.

Because they knew that now they had the upper hand on the volume and the speed work and everything. They were going to be able to train more than me. And I had a really good ability to recover. But I think at 37, I knew that even though I was good at recovering, I, you know, I, I sleep like a baby. I take naps. I knew how to sort of push, but back off, push back. I knew that I was going to have to cut back a lot more than ever before. And so I, you know, I was nervous. Like, how am I going to get, continue to get better because nobody else is getting slower? They're all getting faster.

They're all coming up. They're pushing the envelope. And so, you know, that was really where it became a very integrated approach to it, not only physically, you know, mentally, spiritually, recovery-wise. I just knew that I had to be very, very smart if I was going to have a chance. What about like, uh, socially and like work wise, like, were you able to, I know you did say that you had a sponsorship at some point, so that probably helped, but were you able to have like a relationship? Were you able to, or was it, you know, so many hours poured into this that it's like kind of impossible?

or was it, you know, so many hours poured into this that it's like kind of impossible? No, I was a monk. I talked to no one. I lived in a tent. That's a good way to go about doing it. Some people have done that before. It does work for some. Yeah, you know, I tell people all the time,

if you lived on the top of a hill in a tent and you had no responsibilities, the amount of training you could do would be amazing because that would all be the only thing you'd have. I like this idea. All you need is a tent and you had no responsibilities, the amount of training you could do would be amazing because that would all be the only thing you'd have. I like this idea. All you need is a tent. Yeah. Write that down.

Yeah. However, that's not the reality of life. You know, I was married at age 31. So, you know, I was, and at 37, we also had, my son was almost two years old. So, I had a child, a marriage and one of the things that I actually did in my off time once my training was done

I didn't do a lot of socialization with triathletes a lot of my socialization was with people outside the sport because I found that a lot of triathletes would train all day and then they would obsess all night about the training that they'd just done. Extra stressors. Yeah, and obsess about the workouts coming up and the races and the entire universe with

triathlon. I'm like, that's not balanced. You know, that's like so obsessive, you know, and it's like obsess, you know, obsession is just like one step beyond commitment and motivation and, and optimization. You know, it's, it's, it's energy that goes into something that's actually holding you back rather than propelling you forward. Like an addiction might. Yeah. It's almost like an addiction. So, you know, my socialization was with people that maybe knew about triathlon, but they weren't, they weren't triathletes. And that really helped me to keep

things balanced. And, you know, like when my training was done at the end of the day, it was done. I didn't think about it, you know, and we'd have dinner at night and it was about what movie we were going to watch on TV or, you know, especially when I, you know, my son was born, it's like, look at this, you know, oh, look at him. He's such a, he's such a cute little guy, you know, and that totally takes your mind off of this obsession of your sport. And so balance is, is a, is a big thing. You know, of course there were still periods where, you know, in like that last six weeks or so, but eight, seven weeks before Kona that year, my focus was like this. So there was no energy going out to anything else. In the snapshot of that period, that was not balanced, right?

But balance for me was what took place over the course of a year. But balance for me was what took place over the course of a year. So during those really key periods where I knew I needed to put every ounce of energy I had into this one focus of getting myself in the best shape as possible, best prepared as possible, that wasn't sustainable, but it was only going to be for a period. And then when the race was over, then I would have another period that also would not look balanced because I had 24 hours a day with my family, you know, and totally, you know, with them and giving them energy and time. And like, that actually wasn't sustainable either. Like at one point it would sort of be like, my wife was like, why don't you get out of the house and train, would you? So anyway, I think that's something for people to kind of keep in mind too. Sports should be something that enhances the big picture of your life. Did you have a mentor with endurance sports?

Like did you have someone kind of leading the way for you or it was just kind of communication with other triathletes and stuff like that? I drew from a lot of people. You know, like my training partners were all top triathletes. And, you know, partly because they're the only ones you could find crazy enough to do the stuff you're going to be doing, right? And it's nice to have some company on a lot of those long workouts, those hard workouts. And so we, you know, back then there wasn't a lot of coaching knowledge because the sport was relatively young. I started in 1982. Ironman,

first year of that was 78. So the sport was only four years old, basically. So in the beginning, especially, there were no coaches that knew more than we did as athletes. And so we would sort of bounce ideas off of each other and look at what swimmers and cyclists and runners were doing and then adapt that to putting these three things together. Like in the very beginning, I kind of knew what to do from swimming because I was a swimmer, but I contacted some cycling coaches and contacted some running coaches.

And if I had done what each one of those individual sport coaches wanted me to do, I would have killed myself. You know, I realized, wait a minute, this isn't a 112-mile bike ride that I'm getting ready for and a marathon I'm getting ready for. It's a triathlon that combines these three things. So the athletes that I trained with, we were the best resource. And so we'd kind of train together and toss ideas and try stuff. And when somebody else started excelling, we'd go, okay, what's the dude doing?

And then we'd try to copy that and see if it worked for us. I also had eventually some people that were really good with sport physiology. One of them was Phil Maffetone who pioneered a lot of the heart rate training and utilizing that difference between aerobic and anaerobic to really build your base of fitness without burning you out kind of a thing and really tuning into the over-training syndrome that a lot of people got stuck in. And then for sure, like I said, Brant Secunda helped me with so much of the kind of energetic aspect of training and the mental aspect of training. And, you know, like I said, that sort of champion's mindset for me is it's a combination of a sense of peace and a sense of strength or power. And the first time that I met Brant, it's like you could just see it in his eyes.

Like he was super steady, but also he had this sort of like strength about him. Like, whoa, okay. And I had never sort of identified that, but in that moment it gelled for me. And I knew that I had never had that experience in Kona at the Ironman. Like I could, the first six years that I raced in Hawaii, I did not win.

Second six years, also after meeting Brandt, I won. And other races that I was at around the world where it was easy for me to be in that champion's mindset, I could look at it in retrospect now and realize, like when I went to Europe and raced, I could look at it in retrospect now and realize like when I went to Europe and raced, I would show up and it would be like, oh, this is great. This is Europe. And they got croissants and like cheese, like gooey cheese, you know. And like, you know, I was like, this is awesome, you know. And everything was positive. I would show up in Kona and I swear to God, it felt like, this is awesome, you know. And everything was positive.

I would show up in Kona, and I swear to God, it felt like somebody hit me in the gut. You know, you get off the plane. They don't have an air-conditioned jetway. They wheel the stairs up, and you walk down on this black tarmac, and the wind is howling, and it's hot, and the sun's beating down. and the sun's beating down. And, you know, actually when you fly in, you fly in right over the bike course and you see like all the entire 112 miles of black lava and you're just like, oh, you know. You know, your armpits start sweating,

your hand, your palms are sweating, you know. And very different experience. So, you know, how am I supposed to go there and feel confident when I'm totally freaked out about this environment, right? And I tried to push it away. And you're on the big island of Hawaii, which is this amazingly powerful place, and you're trying to push away the part that's probably the biggest challenge, the environment and the island itself. And it's like, if you don't learn how to work with that, you're going to spend all this energy trying to push it away and have it be something different than it is.

If you're in a competition and you're trying to script a different reality than what's going on, forget it. And so I could be in the lead, but I'd fall apart. I'd be in the lead, fall apart. Finally, after six sort of failures there, I thought, I'm not cut out for this thing. And my family and friends were saying the same thing. They were like, dude, don't go back.

Go to Nice, France. You can win there. You did great already. Yeah. You don't need that thing. It's too long. It's too hot. There's something. Finally, you're cursed. You don't need that thing. It's too long. It's too hot. There's something.

Finally, you're cursed. I don't know. Whatever it is, right? This is before your first gold. Yeah. Okay. This was after number six where I had been in the lead but failed. Or I wouldn't fall apart.

Like in the first six Ironmans that I did, I only ran without walking two of those marathons. Only ran without walking. Meaning I only ran out of those first six Ironmans. There were only two that I was able to run the whole way. The other ones I would fall apart and end up walking. And if you're walking on the marathon in Hawaii, you're not going to be the champion. I guarantee you. I guarantee you. I guarantee you.

You know? And so in 1989, I wasn't going to go back. So I started training in January and literally like two weeks into training, I could hear this like, you have to come back. You know, the island was calling and I knew that I had to go back there. But I knew that it had to be for a different reason than just trying to win. And I knew that I had to have a different connection with the island, you know.

And so I thought, you know, I do need to go back. And literally, I really am going to just try to have the best race I can just to have a swim and a bike and a run where I give it everything I have. And if I win, great. If somebody else wins, great. And when I went there, I kind of went to this little place along the ocean and I kind of brought this little offering and I put it down and I said, hey, Big Island, just let me be here and feel comfortable here as my strength. Because other places I could feel that strength, which is a more calm strength, I guess you'd say. And in Hawaii, it was so intense, I always thought you had to be like pumped up.

And I'm not a pumped up kind of dude, right? Especially for eight hours. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you can be pumped up for about three hours at the Ironman in Hawaii. And after about three hours, the shelf life is over. And then you're faced with reality. You know, you're faced with weaknesses you have.

You have to face fear. You have to face doubt. All of that shit that if you let it get to you, will get to you. And so I just said, just let me be here in peace. And I really had this sense like the island finally, I just felt like I was being hugged by the island. And like, and I, and just this voice just said, you can have what you've come for, but it's going to take courage. And I'm like, ooh, I like it, but that courage piece. And it really was, I had to have that courage to just stay in that space of like, I'm just here to do the best I can do.

I'm here to do the best I can do and be the best I can be. And it ended up being the first of my wins. So it was transformative for sure. Right now, I know you're looking in the mirror. You're getting ready for your nephew's quinceañera. You have a long sleeve on that looks horrible and your pants don't fit right. That's why we partnered. I don't know why you're laughing. That's why we partnered with Viore clothing. You see, this is the boulevard shirt jacket. Fits great. Stretchy. Feels amazing. It's the best long sleeve in my closet. And one of the biggest things that we love about Viore is that they have clothes that you can wear to parties. They have clothes that you can wear in the gym.

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Fucking hell. You think previously, do you think you had the same training going into the event and it was the mindset that kind of got you over it? Or was there some different things going on with training as well? That is a damn good question. You ask a very good question there. It was both. 1989, I went to New Zealand and trained for six weeks down there with a compatriot, this guy, Scott Molina, another guy who ended up winning Ironman one time. And New Zealand back in 1980, 1989, you know, there were no cell phones.

There was no laptops. There was no communication with the Northern Hemisphere. So for six weeks, my life was simplified. I just trained. I was in this absolutely beautiful rural environment on the South Island, just roads and trails. And just every day you get up and you go on a different trail or different ride and like, wow, you know, super inspiring, right? And my life was so simplified that all of a sudden I just was able to do this massive volume of training and recover from it. And it was the first time I realized, hmm, if I simplify my life, what I can do with my sport is very different than if I occupy a big portion of my life with

other stuff that has nothing to do with helping me be a better athlete. And so I took that incredible experience home with me and carried that through the remainder of my career and just continually tried to just keep my life simple and simplified. And I think that's a really big challenge today. You know, I mean, just think of all the stuff you're looking at on your phone all of the day long. I mean, people come home from training, they do a huge training session, they lay on the couch, and then they're scrolling and posting and reading, and their mind is like on high alert for the next two hours, even though they think they're resting.

But your mind has to rest too. I think it's a real challenge today to actually find that like quiet space. And what is it that you're looking at? You're looking at other stuff in the thing that you're interested in. So probably, you know, causing you to be like, oh man, that guy's training this way and this person's training that way. Yeah. You know, you're off even more.

Yeah. And there's, you know, there's very few people that post their really crappy days. They're posting all their amazing training camps and, you know, all their stuff and you're just going, whoa. So coming from New Zealand, what did you strip? Like what did you actually change in your life specifically? Just being busy. You know, like, you know how it is, like, on vacation,

you have all the time in the world when you're home, even if you're not doing anything, you're busy day and night doing whatever. Something around the house or going shopping or fixing something up or you're thinking about something you can do to the house. And I just had none of that in New Zealand. It's like a training camp. Yeah, and so I really tried to bring that training camp sort of way of experiencing things day in and day out

into my home life at home and so we just simplified things you know we didn't do as much outward social stuff you know i didn't feel like i had to occupy free time with something okay you know and it's very different to have a free hour where you're just chilling versus a free hour where you're occupying yourself with something. You're mentioning taking some naps. Were you pretty diligent about that? Was that something where you're like, this time every day I'm going to take a nap? It wasn't a conscious choice, but it was definitely something that I did. I love my sleep, right?

It was a conscious choice, but it was definitely something that I did. You know, I love my sleep, right? And, you know, when I would do a big training session, I'd come home, and usually it was even the long days were done by one or two. And I would come home and have a lunch and lay down, and that 45 minutes or whatever, I could just, I would go so deep asleep and I could just feel my body just going. It was like a furnace, like it was rebuilding itself on the spot.

And I was like, well, and a lot of people, that was a part of the simplifying, was taking the time to just do that instead of thinking, oh, I'm done with the workout. I got to go do something else right now. Take that nap. Yeah, so I had this amazing ability to recover, and partly it was because I could sleep, and partly I think I could sleep because, like I said, when I was done with my training,

I wasn't obsessing and mulling over all the different scenarios and other people and all that. So when I went to bed at night, I was just quiet. You know, people are like, I get to bed and I'm like, my mind's going and I just can't shut it off. You know, and I'm thinking about this and that and the other thing and that other guy and that other gal and other thing and other thing. And I'm like, dude, I love sleeping too much. I love sleeping too much to be thinking about shit. You know what I mean? Yeah. You're going to get ahead with that for sure. When did

you start incorporating some lifting? Because you mentioned to me earlier that you went for a chunk of your career with outlifting. Yeah, it happened. I was 33 and a half. And the story sort of starts there. The last day of winter as a 33-year-old, I went out for a long ride. And I was not in the mood, and I was doing it by myself, and I was fighting it and resisting it. You know, the little voice was trying to tell me something and I didn't listen. And I got 15 miles into the bike ride and a pickup truck slammed into me, almost went under the truck, almost got ran over, broke my collarbone.

And so this is, and so now I'm looking at like basically almost six weeks without training any real significant training. And all my competitors, you know, you have to understand what you do in sort of like that February, March, April, May window lays the base of fitness that you will need to then in August and September build up to Ironman. And if you don't, if you miss that spring chunk, it's very hard to make it up later. But anyway, shortly after that healed, I had seen that my swimming, cycling, and running wasn't bringing me the strength that I had gained in previous years. Like I just didn't have the speed, the snap, the resiliency, the strength climbing, or the recovery rate.

And I knew it was muscular. And so I was introduced to a woman, Diane Bukta, who was like an encyclopedia of strength training. And she took me through that. Once I was recovered from that, we started doing strength work and she took me through a full, it was kind of a half season that year, but then the next year, I'd say 34 and then on into 35, full season of training where we would do different phases and, you know, build up and build down and all that kind of stuff and some maintenance stuff. And those two years were for sure the best years that I ever had.

And I made a massive jump in my performance again through that strength training. And part of the reason I didn't do it before is because I had no idea what to do. I wasn't involved with the strength community. So I'd walk into the Gold's Gym near my house and I'd walk in and I'd look at the dudes in there like just throwing massive weights around

and I'd look at me and it was totally intimidating, you know. And here I am, Ironman champ, intimidated to actually work out with these guys. And I'm like, whoa. Fortunately, she was like my second mom. She just like, get in there and we're going to do it. And she really educated me on not only what to do but how to do it so that, one, I didn't get injured. She was such a stickler for lifting form, which obviously is important. It's not how much you can important. It's not how much you

can lift. It's like how much you can lift with good form. And then making it, again, going back to my consistent-ism, making it so that it's building strength, but doing it consistently. So it's not like loading it all up, all of a sudden your muscles can't recover. And so anyway, those two years after I really had full seasons of doing it was just like mind-blowing. And I wish I had started earlier because I know it would have helped me out. And that's definitely something that is a big part of my consistency program nowadays as a 65-year-old. Without fail, I'm doing the strength training. And a lot of triathletes ask me, they go, well, it's, you know, it's only like we have

two days a week. And if I have to skip a workout, should I be skipping those or what? I'm like, no, those are two of your most very key workouts each week, especially as a 45-year-old or a 53-year-old or a 63-year-old. And I mean, you guys know all the research, you know, once guys get older and their testosterone can start to drop or women go through menopause, you know, strength training is so key to maintaining your body's balance and your body's ability to balance. And, you know, as I was mentioning to you before the podcast here my training my strength training was very traditional you know like isolated movements and not a lot of compound stuff and nowadays it's like so much better you know with compound moves and balance moves and

functional strength moves and focus on core and everything like that um yeah, if I had had the knowledge that I have now even and had it way back then, hell, I probably would have won like 12 of those damn things. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you felt like you kept your body more resilient in those last few years? Oh, absolutely. There's no way I would have had the results that I had

or the consistency that I had without it. Can you give some people an idea of, you mentioned the mathetone method a little bit, could you give some people an idea of, so I'd imagine even back then they had heart rate monitors and you guys were monitoring some of that, is that right? Yeah. And can you give people an idea of like what minute mile pace-ish that you would usually run when you were going for these slower aerobic runs in comparison to how fast you might be on race day? Yeah, that's a great question. And it's one that, it's one of the reasons why a lot of people have problems with training aerobically, because they're going to have to probably slow down from what

they're used to doing as a normal paced run, for example. So like I said, in the early days, I was trying to hit that, you know, five minute pace at some point in my run because I knew that that's what I was going to have to do in the short distance races to be competitive. And it's like, if I don't do it in training, how am I going to do it in the race? And so, short distance races to be competitive. And it's like, if I don't do it in training, how am I going to do it in the race? And so, like I said, you know, about two years into my career, someone introduced me to Phil and the woman that introduced me said, you know, listen to what you've got to say, try it out. I know it's very different than the way you train, but I think it's going to help you out. And so I met Phil Maffetone and we went to a running track and he pulled out this thing that was like, it was a

heart rate monitor, but it wasn't like, you know, a sleek strap that you strap on or a wrist read. I mean, wrist read is like mind blowing compared to what we had. It was like a little box that he had to have an ACE bandage, wrap it around my chest, and the readout on it was like a digital thing on the top. And so here I've got this big chunky thing on my chest, and I had like two T-shirts over it because we're running on a track, and I didn't want people to see this thing, but I'm running along, and I'm kind of like looking down to see what my heart rate is. So he goes, okay, what we're going to do,

to see what my heart rate is. And so he goes, okay, what we're going to do, we're going to have you warm up just gradually until your heart rate gets to 155 beats a minute. Because he said at your age now, it was about 25, he said we're going to start with that as your maximum aerobic heart rate, meaning anything up to that is basically aerobic. It's basically more fat burning than carb burning. Anything up to that is basically aerobic.

It's basically more fat burning than carb burning. Also up to that point is physiologically going to be low stress on your body. Once you go over that, you go into more anaerobic metabolism, carbohydrate burning, and physiologically it's more of a high stress on your body, right? And so I'm thinking, oh, cool, you know? And so I start running, and literally, like, right away, my heart rate's at 150 by 5 beats a minute. And so he said, okay, now, once you get there, hold it at that, you know, 153, 154, 155,

and we're just going to have you run 3 miles, and we'll get your average time, and that'll be your maximum aerobic pace, meaning the maximum speed that you can go at this point in time and still be aerobic. And so we did it, and my pace was about an 845 mile, which now I'd be happy to have that. But back then, that's like 3 minutes and 45 seconds slower than I was trying to hit on all my workouts. And so he goes, great. Now just run at that. And you'll see over time as you, you know, we'll do a chunk of training here for the next few weeks where you don't go over that. And he goes, you'll start to get faster.

I'm like, how can I win going at 845 miles? I mean, that won't beat guys that are twice my age. You know, it was, I'm like, what? But I thought, just give it a try. And so sure enough, my pace started to get faster, you know, 830 and then 815 and then 743, you know. Faster pace with a similar heart rate. With the exact same heart rate. How fast did you get? Eventually over time where I would do blocks of aerobic training and then also you do have

to add in speed work periodically, otherwise you'll kind of plateau. So, you know, the bulk of my, the meat of my training was more aerobic. And then I would fine tune that aerobic engine with strategically placed speed work where I was going like as fast as I could go. Eventually, my aerobic pace got down to a 530 mile. So I was able to run a five and a half mile, five and a half.25 actually, 5.25 minute mile aerobically. So when I'm in a race and we're all going 5 minute pace, I'm barely pushing into that aerobic. Like maybe almost not even breaking a sweat unless you're doing it for a while and it's hot out? almost not even breaking a sweat unless you're doing it for a while and it's hot out?

Yeah, well, I mean, it still hurts to run a five-minute mile, but physiologically I was much better off than the guys who probably made that switch at like six-minute pace or 6.30 pace. I still had so much farther to go before I maxed out. And so that really became a huge benefit for me. And, you know, a lot of guys would try that and they'd try it for like two weeks and go, ah, screw it. You know, this is too slow. I'm not going to get any faster. And it's like, and I'm different than everybody else on the planet. You know, it's like, no, you're just not patient. Power Project family, if you're trying to increase your muscle mass, if you're trying to lose body fat, if you're trying to stick to your nutrition

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Links to them down in the description as well as the podcast show notes. Yeah, I think it's hard for people to adopt that thought process. But in a lot of the stuff that I've seen, the basics, there's a lot to it because there's the hormones of your body and how your body responds and how your body tries to recover from it. But if you're trying for distance, that's going to be your best bet, in my opinion, is to follow some of those procedures that you mentioned. If you start running faster, the fast twitch muscle fibers will take over, which isn't that problematic, but they just suck at endurance. So if you want to try to rely on your fast twitch muscle fibers, then go right ahead and you'll find out that you're going to burn out very quickly. You're going to be breathing very hard. Your heart rate's going to be through the roof.

So it's going to be difficult. Yeah. And you know, human beings are the best endurance plant, endurance animals on the planet. Like in the Western States, 100, the, uh, up in the Sierras, you know, they have the Western states for horses and they have the Western states for humans. And the human record is something like 20, 30 minutes faster. So horses, which are also amazing endurance athletes because they can sweat, we're better than them. You know, human beings are, like if you compare us to any animal that has fast twitch like you know we're not as fast we can't jump as high you know a squirrel can outmaneuver us you know what i mean we're designed we're like slow burn engines and a lot of that came from you know ancient times when basically

you know research on indigenous cultures they they've shown that hunting, gathering societies, people basically walk three or four miles a day just moving around, cruising, doing their stuff. In an indigenous culture, you don't see people doing intervals up the hillside. You know what I mean? They're doing steady movement stuff, but they're also doing things where once in a while

they're on a hunt and they do have to sprint to catch the animal or they are carrying loads of firewood or water from a spring. So they're doing their strength training along with all this aerobic stuff. So, you know, and then the only time that we had to utilize, really utilize that anaerobic physiology was when there was, you know, danger. So, you know, aerobic, low stress, takes a lot of oxygen to break down that fat for fuel, which all of us have a good 500 miles worth of stored energy in the fat in our bodies if we could use every fat cell there is. Of course, you can't. We only have 20 miles worth of carbohydrates stored in our bodies. So, you can see by what is stored in our bodies, physiologically, we're meant to try to utilize that a lot of the time. And then the anaerobic is reserved for fight or flight, right? So, when the saber-toothed tiger comes looking at you like

you would be a damn good lunch today. You don't want to have that slow-burning diesel like, hey, brother, I'm trying to run away. You want to get out of there as fast as you can so you switch over to high-stress, anaerobic, carbohydrate-burning, which is like high-octane fuel, so that you have the speed to get to the cave and close the rock by the door until, whew, danger's gone. Well, our ancient—and we're all here because we have that survival stuff built into our genes. If we didn't have it, we wouldn't be here, right?

Fast forward to today, you know, a lot of the workouts are very high intensity. And so, you know, if you're doing high intensity work all the time, you're never developing that aerobic fat burning engine. Your ancient genetics are reading all of your workouts as danger, you know, and so that sort of adds stress to your entire being. And that can inhibit, you know, stress is okay. A little bit of stress is good, right? Like they say, you know, calm seas do not make a great sailor, right? Well, it's the same with everything. You know, a little bit of stress makes you stronger. As you know, you do an anaerobic session, it can stimulate human growth hormone release, testosterone release, you know, you do strength training, human growth hormone release, testosterone release. You do strength training, human growth hormone release, testosterone release. But if you're pushing that anaerobic

thing all the time, then it can work the other direction. Your adrenal system burns out. All those hormones that help you get stronger start getting produced less. You burn out those systems that develop them, that spit them out, and then you start to get less fit. And that's when you're in the real catch because you go, God damn it, I'm working out so hard, but I'm getting slower. I must not be working out hard enough. And then it just really pushes you into that other thing. But the cool thing about strength training is even though technically it's anaerobic, it's actually relatively low stress on your system. even though technically it's anaerobic, it's actually relatively low stress on your system.

So that's how you can get away with it and it can give you so many good benefits in a relatively low stress way. Like you get all that hormone release in a much lower stress manner than if you go out and you do 400s on the track, let's say. So that's why I'm like, I'm 100% like, give me these things. Yeah. I'm going to get a little workout in.

Okay. Next question. By the way, with the heart rate training that you were doing, did you pay attention to the way you were breathing at all? How's my form. With that single, yeah, it's pretty good. Just don't let it leave your hand. Excuse me while I refresh.

Recovery time. Take a nap. What was that question? I'm so sorry. No, you're good. I interrupted. You're good. I was wondering if with the heart rate training that you were doing,

keeping it aerobic, did you pay attention to the way you were breathing at all? Or did that change or adjust as you became better at what you were doing? Even if it was planned to be a hard session, I had moved beyond my body's ability to absorb the benefit of that effort. So anytime my breathing got out of control, as opposed to rhythmic with your stride or your cadence, that's beyond your body's ability to benefit from that effort. And so I drop it back down just to the point where, okay, it's in control again. Yeah. And, you know, you can kind of use that breathing, like I said, to sort of let go of some of the stress too. Like if you need to just like get yourself, regroup, you know, regrouping is not giving up, right?

Like so many times that's all you have to do is like step back for like a split second you know if you kind of like breathe in a little bit deeper than normal and then you breathe out with a little bit more force like and if you have to walk a little bit yeah for it it's not a huge deal i don't think yeah and you hold it for a split second on that out and it's almost like you you let all the all the garbage come out of your mind with it all right yeah okay now i'm back what is this uh ring about that you have on there yeah so this is looking this is a weechel ring uh that comes from the people that Brandt teaches with.

And the symbol on it is the four directions, east, south, west, and north. And then in the center is the fifth direction, which they say is your heart. And so they say that we're sitting in the center of the four directions. And that's how the huichol people view themselves. They're in the center of life, in the center of creation. And so many times I think we can feel isolated, especially in the modern world where you're doing everything, a lot of things virtually, you don't have that communication,

that interaction, that physical touch with people, whatever. For them it's like they always feel a part of something because they always feel like, you know, their heart and they as a human being sit in the center of all of life, of all creation, of the four directions. And, you know, they're so like, and they know where they are, like they know where the sun rises, they know where the sun sets. And they know where they are. They know where the sun rises.

They know where the sun sets. They know that in the summertime, in the wintertime, the sun is going to be further in the south, and then in the summer it comes back up and it's closer to overhead. They tune into the seasons and the day and the night and the rhythm of how things change.

That's something that I also tried to do when I was racing was to try to reflect that in what I was doing. So, you know, as a summer athlete, that was really easy to do, to take all of that sunlight that was going on in those long days and to just really pull that energy in and use it. And so I would train in San Diego in the wintertime by the ocean, and then in the summer I would go out to Boulder, Colorado, and train in the Rockies. And, you know, that inspiration for me to be in that, you know,

that strong mountain environment was just so inspiring, kind of like when I went to New Zealand, so inspiring. So, you know, that's another thing I tell my athletes. It's like, try to, try to do some of your training in, in an environment that's just really inspiring for you. Yeah. And sometimes that's like a 20 minute drive for some people, depending on where you live. Right. Exactly. Yeah. And, you know, granted, some places are just naturally going to be easier to find that than others. Right. But no matter where you are, you know, like Brant said, even if you're in the middle of the city, there's a sunrise and there's a sunset.

And you can go out at that time of day when there's that sort of balance. And I live in Santa Cruz by the ocean, and in the wintertime, the way the sun angle is, it sets right over the ocean where I live. And it's like a mecca. Every day at like 5, 5.30 in the wintertime, it's mobbed with people just hanging out watching the sunset. It's like there's something to this, right? Like everybody's resonating with this. Everybody's feeling something from it. Everybody's getting an inspiring memory from the colors that are coming off of that sun and on the clouds. And, and that, that helps just sort of reset things, I think, and give you sort of that calm sense.

And then you take that calm sense and then you try to bring that into your endeavors, whether they're athletic or health-oriented or business-oriented or relationship-oriented. What you got going on over there, Andrew? I was curious about, because you were talking about balance, and, you know, some of your other triathletes would train all day and then they would meticulously go through their training log books and stuff at night. And you, I'm going to be with my family. I'm going to shut things off. Did you ever have to deal with like, oh man, maybe they're getting that 0.01% better than me when I turn this off. And then did you

have to like, I don't know tell yourself like no no this is actually good for me because I'm just thinking for myself personally I want to get better at jiu-jitsu so I'm engulfed in jiu-jitsu and I feel like the second I turn away from it then it's like oh everyone else is getting better than me I do the same thing with photography also you know so it's like I have that kind of built in already, but I'm curious how you were able to be at such a high level and still just be like, nope, we're going to go ahead and shut you off. Well, knowing what the other guys were doing training or knowing that even if I didn't know what they were doing,

at least in my mind thinking they're probably out there training, that was actually one of the accountability pieces that kept me consistent with my training. Like, I would use the thought of what the other guys were doing to get me out the door. Like, you know, I mean, I'll be honest, and people laugh when I say this, but I'm kind of naturally lazy. Like, I can come up with a million and one excuses why I should blow off that early morning swim workout or put off that workout that I was going to do today for tomorrow.

And that's why I had training partners. Like if I was going to meet myself for a long ride, forget it. I was into the pancakes. But when I knew that my training partners were going to be meeting at a particular was, I was into the pancakes, you know, but when I knew that my training partners were going to be meeting at a particular stoplight at seven in the morning, you know, I was going to show up because otherwise they would give me a hard time for the rest of my life. Right. And so I used the knowledge that other people were out there training, that they were trying to do everything they could to be their best to keep me motivated to be consistent.

they could to be their best to keep me motivated to be consistent. However, I also knew that my letting go of it at the end of the day was a key part of my training. And that if I didn't let it go, that I was doing the wrong training to get ready. And I had also seen over time how the guys who completely obsessed about it, they just didn't have it. Like when it came to race day, they were burned out. If nothing else, they were mentally fried because they had thought about it about 10,000 times too many. Makes sense. makes sense part of the hard thing of a championship mindset is the mindset to just sometimes know when to back off not to do certain things not to fall for other things that other people might be doing or other things that people might be mentioning if it's not moving you forward and it seems to be to your detriment then you can kind of look at it as that doesn't fit

into the championship mindset that I'm trying to build you know even when it comes to recovery like part of being a champion would be to take a nap part of being a champion would be to not overdo your mileage part of being a champion would be to make sure that you can recover from these workouts and to stay in those heart rate zones is annoying frustrating but do you want to get better or do you want to fall to the back of the pack? Yeah, like I said, do I want to be the champion of the training day or the race?

You know, and that was always my focus. And I actually find living that philosophy harder in the non-athletic world. You know, so like when it comes to training, you know, you do a certain amount of training, you're frigging tired and you know that, okay, that's enough for today, right? Enough. That's enough. But when it comes to work or other endeavors, there's not that, there's not quite that same shutoff valve. And so I find it much harder, like in my work, I coach triathletes on a platform called

TriDot. I find it much harder to just do the work and then let it go because it's like, oh, I should check it again and make sure nobody said anything or commented back on something that I told them to do, you know. And so even though that was one of my key ways of becoming a great triathlete. It's a piece that I constantly have to be conscious of in my day-to-day life now. This might be helpful for you. If you don't have the time for it, don't click on it. Well, that's the thing. I have the time for it. You might have to allocate certain times to do that.

You know what I mean? Exactly. If it's work-der work derived it might be from x time to x time or something like that exactly hard to follow those rules but exactly yeah exactly how about any uh did you have like any mantras or any breath work practices when you were trying to like silence the mind a little bit because you just mentioned like you know you would breathe out and try to be present again but But did you have any actual practices or techniques to kind of start silencing the mind and get to just focusing on your race?

Well, like I said, it was sort of a multi-step process. One was doing it in low-stress, non-athletic environments. You go watch a sunrise. You go to the mountain. You sit by the lake. Right. You go watch a sunrise. You go to the mountain.

You sit by the lake. You look at a flower for two minutes, you know, that's just bloomed in your yard or whatever. So you start to get that sense of what it feels like to actually kind of be quiet. And quiet isn't like... Quiet is more like you feel almost like a sense of awareness of all around you or a sense of, like I said, you know, in the center of four directions, you feel a peace. And so thoughts might come to you, but they're not directed by you trying to get an answer to anything.

And then start to practice that same, finding that same experience in training. And like you were saying, that same, finding that same experience in training. And like you were saying, you know, time passes differently. So when I would have those, initially it was like I didn't get it, but I would notice that, oh, wow, what happened those last 20 minutes or those last 10 miles? That went so fast today compared to normal. Then I started to put two and two together and realized that's because I wasn't thinking. I wasn't analyzing. I wasn't judging. I wasn't wanting it to be

different than it is. It's hot. My legs were hurting, blah, blah, blah, but I was just present. And then, so then in training, I just started to try to feel that space more and more so that when it got into a race and things are very high pressure, at least I knew what it felt like. And so when I wasn't feeling it, I would try to bring myself back into it. It's simple. You know, and Brant and I actually, we wrote a book called Fit Soul, Fit Body, Nine Keys to a Healthier, Happier You. And one of the keys is quiet your mind.

And we were doing one of our, we do a workshop called Fit Soul, Fit Body, and we were doing one in Germany. And this one German athlete, he's like, you know, I read your book and I've been practicing and I can get my mind to be quiet. And he goes, and in my last Ironman, I was on the marathon and I got my mind to be quiet. He said, but my legs were still killing me. And I said, I never said that if your mind was quiet, your legs weren't going to hurt. They still hurt. It's still hot.

You still have those blisters, but it doesn't affect you negatively. You know, it's a pain that you can go through. Yeah. Yeah. Pat Project family, we love beef on this podcast. We talk about it a lot. All right. We love our meat.

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as well as the podcast show notes. You know, what's really dope about this is that we've had a lot of high-level athletes on the podcast and people who've been champions and specific things that they do. But there are a few people that kind of echo some of the same thing you're mentioning in terms of the consistency aspect. Because whenever an athlete starts something, they obviously want to get good really fast. And we look at Instagram, you see bodybuilders training super hard, powerlifters maxing out in the gym, sprinters sprinting all the time, you think at least. You think that's what you need to do.

And then a few years in, you've had multiple injuries. You've fucked yourself up a little bit. You're like, I just can't do that type of training. But when you're talking, I kind of think like when i when i like watch lebron james sometimes and you'll see sometimes commentators like why is he moving so slow on the court look at him walking back look they'll they'll point out some of the things he's doing kind of lazily but when you think about what he's doing he's like 37 years old i think 37 or 38 he's learned how to manage his fatigue super well he He has a family. It seems to be doing well.

He has kids. He has other things he's doing, and he's still one of the top performers in the NBA at 37, 38. No one's seen that type of longevity, and no one's seen that type of longevity because the guy's not going at 100 all the time, right? So it's really cool that that's exactly what you did that allowed you to stay at that level for such a long time.

Yeah, and I've heard him talk about how recovery is an absolute key for him. And sleep, and that's one of his non-negotiables is his patterns of sleep. How long did you sleep, by the way? I would sleep, you know, I'd try to get at least nine, sometimes ten hours. And then I'd have my nap. And then you'd have your nap. Yeah. And then you'd have your nap. Yeah. But, you know, I was doing a lot of training, so I –

Yeah. But you have to understand that – You're training multiple times a day, two, three times a day. Yeah, two to three times a day. But you have to understand that sleep is very individual. So, for example, there's a gentleman that I coach who since he's like in his 60s, since college he's only gotten like five, six hours of sleep, right? And he seems to recover.

And so he has his whoop, you know, and he gets his whoop score in the morning and it shows the amount of REM sleep that he gets and the amount of deep sleep that he gets and total sleep time, right? And I'm thinking, this is nuts. And so I started tracking those aspects of my sleep. And literally in my 9 or 10 hours, and if we compare his 5 to 6 or my 9 to 10, we get the exact same amount of REM and the exact same amount of deep. Yeah. You know, the two pieces that are super critical for your recovery. So he's just a super efficient sleeper. Me, I'm like a super inefficient sleeper.

So don't call me the sleep champ because I'm in bed nine or 10 hours. I'm just like really slow at sleeping. I'm a really slow sleeper. So I'm sleep handicapped or sleep challenge or whatever you call it, even though. So it's just an interesting concept, but it is something that's pretty cool that we can now track to just kind of see, you know, what is your quality of sleep? Are you getting enough deep and REM? How much time are you up at night? You know, how can you shift it so that it goes into a better, a healthier pattern if your sleep patterns aren't healthy? Do you go back and forth a bit on some of the new stuff that is out there, all the different apps and all the different things that you can use to measure, because we could, you know, sit here and

keep measuring things over and over again. But I think in your day, you probably just went more by how it feels when you're breathing and stuff like that. Maybe we got a little disconnected from some of those things. Yeah, you know, I had a, my technology was a heart rate monitor, and I had a speedometer on my bike, and that was it. There were no power meters. There was no watts, no Garmin, none of the stuff. And I always say that all of the stuff that measures things is good for initially giving you feedback to understand what an experience you're having, what's actually taking place in this experience that you're having.

So, you know, maybe you don't necessarily have a good sense of what's really going on in your body. And so you put on a heart rate monitor and you're like, oh, geez, you know, I'm at 165 beats a minute running a 15-minute mile. You're not aerobically fit enough, right? And so it's good for giving you feedback to then attach that to an experience that you're feeling in your body, whether it's in a workout or your recovery or anything like that. But you can become a slave to the numbers,

like, am I happy today? You know, am I motivated today? You know, am I motivated today? You know, all the things that are human, they can't measure. You can't measure commitment. You can't measure desire. You can't measure steadiness or peace, inner peace. You can't measure an emotion like love. That's right, Garmin.

Right? Garmin is giving me poor sleep scores all the time. Right, right, Garmin. Right. Fuckers give me poor sleep scores all the time. Right, yeah, you know. You know, you love your kids or your partner, you know. Let me look at my watch. Oh, not today. I love them a little bit less today. I don't have energy for that.

I need to lift. Right. So, it's, yeah, it's fun, but if you're an absolute slave to your numbers, you've lost, I think, a lot of just the joy and the experience of just feeling what your body feels like when it's doing its thing. What about food? What about nutrition? Was there a lot you needed to learn with that or is that kind of intuitive for you throughout your career? I had to develop that. You know, fortunately, I did not love junk food.

But at the same time, I didn't have the best diet initially. And so, you know, back in the day, this was actually in 1989, where I lived in Boulder, Colorado, was about two blocks from a Mrs. Fields chocolate chip store, right? Chocolate cookie. I mean, anybody who's like, yum, I remember those goodies. And so what I would do is I'd do my long bike ride on Saturday, and then I'd walk over to Mrs. Fields, and I thinking, you know, I'll have six until next Saturday, right? Well, as you can probably guess, by the time I got home, there was only two left. I'm like, I cannot leave these two little guys by themselves. You know, and then, you know, Dave Scott, my toughest competitor at this point by 1989, he had won his six titles.

He was infamous for being meticulous with his diet. So one of – like he was – he did everything. He got a lot of his protein from cottage cheese because – but he felt like cottage cheese had too much fat in it. So before he would eat his cottage cheese, he'd stick it in a strainer and he would rinse it. So, you know, I'm going to win the Ironman. I've got to beat a guy who's willing to rinse his cottage cheese. Back in the day before they had 2%.

Exactly, exactly. And so he's optimizing his cottage cheese. So all of a sudden, one day the light bulb went on. I'm eating six Mrs. Fields chocolate chip cookies in the sitting. Dave Scott is rinsing his cottage cheese. He's winning Ironman. I'm 0 for 6. But those cookies are really good.

They are. They're damn good. And so I thought, all right. Don't tell me you got rid of the cookies. Cold turkey, man. Oh, wow. Cold turkey. That's some power right there. But, you know, all right. Don't tell me you got rid of the cookies. Cold turkey, man. Oh, wow. Cold turkey. That's some power right there.

But you know what was the most amazing thing? For like six weeks, everywhere I went, everywhere I looked, somebody was selling a chocolate chip cookie. Like at the gas station, at the airport. I mean, everywhere I went, I'm like, the world is nuts. But then finally, that craving for chocolate chip cookies subsided. And then I realized that craving for chocolate chip cookies was masking 20 different other things my body was trying to tell me it needed, that I wasn't able to sense because the big addictive craving was taking over. And so all those other cravings one day it

might be I needed more protein another day you're dehydrated a day you need something salty another day you need more fat you need some avocado you need some some almonds something like that and so once I once I got rid of that food that is has an addictiveness to it, then that natural intuitive knowledge that my body is like, this is what you need today started to kick in. And it was like night and day. Recovery was better. Sleep was better.

Blood sugar was better. Now I went on one Ironman six times. So there you go. Sorry, I gotta cut out those chip cookie, chocolate chip cookies if you're gonna win Ironman.

I guess that's why you're not gonna win it. I don't know. I won't even cook cookies. I just eat the, eat the dough. Yeah, right.

Why wait? Why wait? Right? Yeah, it's too, too much time. But, by the way,

why, what was the gap in 94? Was that like, did you have a kid or was that? Yeah, it's too much time. By the way, what was the gap in 94? Was that like, did you have a kid? Oh, yeah. So I won 1989 through 1993, those five. And then that fall, right after the fifth win, our son was born. And so all of a sudden, my recovery really got shortchanged because he was up at nights and, you know, stuff like that. And right away I could see that I was, I'd had this buildup of sort of fatigue that had gotten into my body during those previous five years.

And I couldn't get rid of it because my sleep patterns were off. And so the following year I said, I want to go back to Kona, but there's no way I can do the training. My body just won't be able to take it, absorb it, benefit from it. And so I backed away from, I didn't do Ironman that year. I did some shorter races. I did some other stuff, but really it was kind of like a down year. And it took that whole year of restructuring, rebuilding,

spending time with my son, and then the following year, finally things started to come back, and then I was like, okay, I need to do one more of these. And then you won. And then I won, number six. Not the whole story on its own. I think there's a message there, like sometimes fatigue that gets in the way of that consistency-ism, it's not what, just what you did

yesterday or last week. It's what you've done over a number of years. And the human body is, and the mind really is so good at overriding that fatigue switch. And so you keep pushing, you keep pushing, and all of a sudden you might reach a point where things really start to go down the other side. And that's when it's like, okay, an easy week is not going to be enough. I'm going to actually have to take it relatively easy for a month or six months, or in my case, a little over a year. And that was, it was hard, but I also, I knew that I had to do that

if I was going to have any chance of coming back and winning a sixth one. You're 65 now. How do you feel? How do I look? You look incredible. Oh, no. I don't look a day over 73, so I'm awesome. What was the question? I can't remember.

You said you've been surfing and stuff like that? Yeah, you know, I live in Santa Cruz, California. Beautiful place. I've been there since 99. I surfed as a kid along with my swimming. And, you know, I'm not a great surfer. I mean, nobody will ever convince, confuse me with Kelly Slater, you know, or John, John Florence or whoever. Um, but I love it. It's just, it's, you know, I live two blocks from the ocean and I, so I can just throw on the wetsuit, walk down, paddle out. And, uh, you know,

it's my, it's my cardio. It's cardio. It's my stretching because you're moving in every direction. It's my core, you know. It's my time in nature. It's time with community, you know, the guys that you get to know out in the water and the guys and the gals. So it incorporates so many things. You know, it's just a moment,

a time to also just reflect and be peaceful out there. And it's also a truth serum because surfing is not like running. Like if you're having an off day, you just run slower, right? If you're having an off day surfing, you either surf like crap or you can't even get up, you know, because there's this split second between when you're paddling and you stop paddling and your whole body has to have this one coordinated snap where everything pulls together and you jump up and you're on your board. Once you're up surfing, surfing is easy. Paddling is easy. Going from paddling to surfing

is what surfing is all about. That's the hard part. And so, um, if I am struggling with my takeoffs, I know that something's off. I didn't get enough sleep. I'm overtired. I'm mentally exhausted. You know, I can go through my list and I always, it's like, oh yeah, that list of five, I've got four of them, you know, and so it's just something that sort of keeps me on track

with trying to keep things balanced and, you know. And so it's just something that sort of keeps me on track with trying to keep things balanced. And, you know, eventually I will reach a day where that's the last wave I'll ever catch. And that's just the way it is. But so I surf a lot of days out of the week, definitely do strength training. You know, I've got a tonal setup in my house. Me and LeBron. I got a good story with that. I'll tell you in a secal setup in my house. Me and LeBron. I got a good story with that. I'll tell you in a sec. I'm very curious.

Yeah. And I have a stationary bike setup, so it's just so easy to just get on that thing and get a 30-minute workout in or whatever. And I walk a lot now, actually. I love that because it gives me time to move, be outside, think about things, you know, a little bit of running. So I mix it up. Every day is a little bit different, but I am super into consistency. Like every single day, you know, I get out there and I do something. I'm never pushing the envelope.

You know, those days, I don't need those anymore. My whole thing is about how do I optimize my health going to that last breath. What did you need those days for, do you think, when you were young? The challenging days? Yeah, the days that were hell. That's a good question. You know, I was exploring what I was capable of doing. And it was like a physical puzzle. Like, how do I get just a little bit faster?

And that actually came from my swimming days. Like, you know, I never even came close to qualifying for even Olympic trials or national championships or anything. So my fulfillment in swimming was just getting two tenths faster and a hundred back or half a second faster and 200 IM or whatever it was. And so it was a very personal journey of perfecting my capabilities. And that really came into triathlon. And so it just happened that my level of personal perfection was at a world-class level. But I was still sort of tapping into that thing of like, how can I just, how can I take today and make it myself just a little bit better than I was yesterday?

Or get a little bit faster, a little bit stronger, a little bit more efficient. And at that point in my lifespan, I had the physical capability to translate that into getting faster in racing. And so racing was like the real litmus test of, have I actually made those personal improvements that I think I've been doing in training. And so it was kind of this cool thing. It was a journey to try to be the best but also to try to be my best. Now it has nothing to do with getting faster because I know that, you know, the older I get, I'm not getting faster. And so if I'm trying to compete with my younger self, I will always lose, you know. And so the goal is shifted to how can I make today be the best that I can today?

So like when I'm out there and surfing and I'm having like a really crappy day and I can't get up and I'm struggling, I'm falling. This is a big test of the, you know. As the wave crashes on your face again. And so just try to make the end of the session better than it was in the beginning. Yeah. You know, and so it's really just about how can I make today the best that I can today? And that's my goal now. LeBron James. So two years after I retired, I was

sponsored by Nike throughout my entire career and they were actually going to do a clothing line with me. And, um, so I was up at Nike headquarters and we had these big meetings with, um, the materials people and the marketing people and the design people and, you know, all the people, right? Me and the people. And we were, and while I was up there, and this was after I had stopped competing, LeBron got his initial contract out of high school, like, what was it, 47, 49 million? I don't know. Some gazillion million dollars and he had played zero NBA games, right? gazillion million dollars and he had played zero NBA games, right?

And while I was up there, Nike gave me a $500 gift certificate to their company store. And so... It's like, you're a goat. Here's $500. And so here I am, you know, I'm like, okay, I have won six Ironman Triathlon World Championship titles. $500 gift certificate. LeBron James has not played one NBA game and he's got like $47 gazillion billion. I'm like, hmm, you know. So anyway, fast forward to like a year ago.

A couple of years ago, right as COVID hit, Tonal engaged me to help with putting together some programs for endurance athletes on their Tonal system. And so, you know, we did it. It was really fun. I love the device. I got one set up in my house and all that kind of stuff. And my agreement had come up, you know, and so it was like, are they going to renew or not renew? And I was trying to get in contact with, you know, the people, with their people, and I couldn't get a call back or anything. And literally, as I'm trying to see if they're

going to renew the agreement or not, I turn on the TV, CNN, commercial, LeBron James and Tonal. I'm like, damn, dude, you got me again. You know, I'm curious about this because, like, people have asked LeBron, people have asked LeBron, do you believe you're the GOAT? And a majority of lists have you as the Iron Man GOAT. And Dave Scott's also won six. I think there's some Jan Fredano, right? I don't know Jan's records. But why are you the GOAT?

You've had six Iron Mans, but what makes you the GOAT? I know that's a weird question to answer. Well, I don't know if I'm the goat or not. You know, one of the reasons that I have been called a goat by many people, by many lists, is, I mean, a couple of reasons. One was that, you know, the race that I had with Dave Scott in 1989 where we raced literally side by side for eight hours before I finally pulled away in the last mile and a half, mile, mile and a half. Wow. And won by 58 seconds on a day where he broke his previous world's record by almost 18 minutes and I did my best time on that day by nearly 30. And it was it was the first time that yeah it was the first time that the iron man had actually been raced

like prior to that it was always kind of like a survival contest to see who fell apart this the latest you know who slowed down the least and it was finally we showed that that race can actually be a race from the start to the finish. And so it, it completely brought in what I consider the modern era of Ironman racing. But aside from that, you know, I, not only did I have six Ironman titles, but I had a lot of other titles at many other races at all distances. I won the first international, the first Olympic distance world championship also in 1989. And so, um, you know, I was able to win at short distance and long distance events and mid middle distance, half Ironman distance races. Like for a half Ironman,

there were only two in my entire career that I didn't win. And so I think that's kind of one of the reasons why. And I was doing them all at the same time. You know, like now, like Jan Frodeno, he's won three Ironman titles. He won a gold medal in Beijing. So obviously he's done both ends of the spectrum also. But he did them at different times of his career. So there's, like he did them at different times of his career. So there's, like, he did Olympic distance stuff, and then he transitioned into half Ironman,

transitioned into full Ironman. And so his record is amazing, but it was just done in a different way. Like, when we raced, we were expected to be good at short and long distance at the same time. And now guys don't even have that mindset that they can be good at both at the same time. They feel like,

Oh, let me do short stuff while I'm young. And then I'll transition into doing Ironman as I move into my later years of my career. Wow. That's impressive. To finish 18 minutes faster than his previous best. And you finished 30 minutes.

Do you think a lot of that had to do with you guys maybe sharing information? Or were you guys sharing information at that time? Or no? We shared no information. He actually trained up here in Davis, California at that time. And he was like the anomaly. He, you know, he, he had training partners, but none of them were top triathletes. And, uh, I, I trained with, with some of the best guys in the world. Uh, you know, we all trained

in Boulder. We all trained in San Diego together. And so he was like this big black box of like this mystery hole, like, what is he doing you know nobody nobody really knew we we heard stuff and it all sounded crazy and insane but like what oh like he you know he'd go out when it was you know 105 degrees and he'd ride a you know a million miles on these dead flat roads out here mythical stories yeah you know the mythic stories of his training. But we really never knew. And, you know, we were cordial to each other, you know. But the most we would do is say, hey, great race at wherever. But we never questioned anything or, you know.

It was an intense rivalry, but it was really based on respect. Like we were both sort of trying to up the game and we wanted to beat each other because we respected what the other one was doing. So it was very different than somebody you want to beat because you think they're a jerk. Yeah. And then that day in 1989, I think it was – I think, you know, I knew where my big jump had come from. You know, it was the elements that I spoke about, like going to New Zealand and training and simplifying my life and going there with a different focus, not to win, but to really truly have my best race and to use everybody else in the race to inspire me to have that best race

and changing my approach to how I was able to relate with the big island itself, being in that intense environment and just embracing it instead of trying to push it away. And then he had, I don't know what he did that year, but of course, his best performance ever. And so for the two of us to do it at the same time on the same day was it was a unique moment in time and I don't know if you'll ever have a race where two people are

not only that close on race day but a race that really took seven years to take shape has there ever been another instance of like all time greats being in that same era like that within Iron Man? Not quite the same way, I wouldn't say. Like nowadays, there's Jan Frodeno, who's 41, I think. You know, he's considered—

I called him Jan. He's 41, I think. You know, he's considered— I called him Jan. Yeah, well, he's German, you know. But, you know, he's done some amazing things, and people are like, oh, is he the GOAT? And then there's these young guys who are from Norway, two guys, Gustav Eden and Christian Blumenfeld, who seem to be setting the standard. But they still haven't actually really raced each other the way that Dave and I did.

And so it's pretty unique, I think, when two different eras overlap and kind of go like this. And that race was really like a passing of the crown because he won six and then I went on and won six after that. It's pretty crazy to hear earlier you said there was a point where you weren't sure if you were cut out for it. Like, I don't even know if I'm going to come back to this. Family kind of said the same thing. You're doing good enough. You gave it your shot kind of thing. And what do you think led you to hang on?

Well, you know, I mean, sometimes you have a goal that ends up actually being one you're never going to make, right? And so you got to ask yourself, is it worth putting in that amount of effort for an entire year, that kind of focus, if the goal is to win and you know you're not going to win? And at some point you have to be realistic. Like some people want to win. It's like, you're never going to frigging win. I point you have to be realistic. Like some people want to win. It's like you're never going to frigging win. I don't care how smart you train. You're just not put together to do that. But like I said, I was ready to pull back and not go.

And I just, there was this thing calling like, you've got to come back. And fortunately I listened to that. Welcome back. And fortunately, I listened to that. And ironically, this is another cool sort of odd thing. Right before that race, Michael Jordan announced his first of several retirements. And I'm like, oh, man, if I could win this thing once, I would retire. However, I had just gotten an agreement with Nike put in place prior to that 1989 Ironman

where it would be I had a commitment to race for six years and then I would carry on for another six with kind of like an ambassador role at Nike. And so through that contract, I really had to actually come back and race for the next six years, 1989 through whatever. Keep collecting that $500 shopping check. Yeah, you know. And so, I mean, I had an agreement with them, and they never did that clothing line, by the way. But, you know, I'm i'm like 500 how many million you know awesome thank you so much for your time today andrew take us on out of here buddy yes sir

uh thank you everybody for checking out today's episode uh please drop those comments below let us know what you guys think about this conversation and hit that like button and subscribe uh follow the podcast at mb power project all over the place my instagram is at i am andrew z and sema where you at ask questions down below guys discords down below at sema in yang on instagram youtube and sema yin yang on tiktok and twitter mark where can people find you at mark allen grip on instagram main place and then how can people uh get some training from you? Yeah, go to, you can either email me, mark at markallensports.com, or you can go to tridot.com and look up Mark Allen Premium, and that's where you can definitely get coached. And I have some spots left open this year if anybody wants that personal coaching.

Awesome. Strength is never weakness. Weakness is never strength. I'm at Mark Smiley Bell. Catch you guys later. Bye.