Mark Bell's Power Project - Anya Jensen - HOW to Pick the RIGHT Barefoot Shoe for YOU || MBPP Ep. 774

Episode Date: July 26, 2022

In this Podcast Episode, Anya Jensen from Anya's Reviews, Mark Bell, Nsima Inyang, and Andrew Zaragoza talk about the unbelievable impact our shoes can have on our bodies. Anya is a writer and entrepreneur whose barefoot shoe websites breaks down barriers to healthy footwear, making it easier for people to find exactly what they're looking for. Follow Anya on IG: https://www.instagram.com/anyasreviews/ More info on her websites: AnyasReviews.com BarefootShoeFinder.com Anyas-Shop.com Use code PowerProject to save money on these barefoot recommended shoes: https://www.vivobarefoot.com/us/powerproject https://shammasandals.com https://www.earthrunners.com https://us.vibram.com Join The Power Project Discord: https://discord.gg/yYzthQX5qN Subscribe to the new Power Project Clips Channel: https://youtube.com/channel/UC5Df31rlDXm0EJAcKsq1SUw Special perks for our listeners below! ➢https://boncharge.com/pages/POWERPROJECT Code POWERPROJECT for 20% off!! ➢https://thecoldplunge.com/ Code POWERPROJECT to save $150!! ➢Enlarging Pumps (This really does work): https://bit.ly/powerproject1 ➢https://www.vivobarefoot.com/us/powerproject Code POWERPROJECT20 for 20% off Vivo Barefoot shoes! ➢https://markbellslingshot.com/ Code POWERPROJECT10 for 10% off site wide including Within You supplements! ➢https://mindbullet.com/ Code POWERPROJECT for 20% off! ➢https://eatlegendary.com Use Code POWERPROJECT for 20% off! ➢https://bubsnaturals.com Use code POWERPROJECT for 20% of your next order! ➢https://vuoriclothing.com/powerproject to automatically save 20% off your first order at Vuori! ➢https://www.eightsleep.com/powerproject to automatically save $150 off the Pod Pro at 8 Sleep! ➢https://marekhealth.com Use code POWERPROJECT10 for 10% off ALL LABS at Marek Health! Also check out the Power Project Panel: https://marekhealth.com/powerproject Use code POWERPROJECT for $101 off! ➢Piedmontese Beef: https://www.piedmontese.com/ Use Code POWER at checkout for 25% off your order plus FREE 2-Day Shipping on orders of $150 Follow Mark Bell's Power Project Podcast ➢ https://lnk.to/PowerProjectPodcast ➢ Insta: https://www.instagram.com/markbellspowerproject ➢ https://www.facebook.com/markbellspowerproject ➢ Twitter: https://twitter.com/mbpowerproject ➢ LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/powerproject/ ➢ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/markbellspowerproject ➢TikTok: http://bit.ly/pptiktok FOLLOW Mark Bell ➢ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/marksmellybell ➢https://www.tiktok.com/@marksmellybell ➢ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MarkBellSuperTraining ➢ Twitter: https://twitter.com/marksmellybell Follow Nsima Inyang ➢ https://www.breakthebar.com/learn-more ➢YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/NsimaInyang ➢Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nsimainyang/?hl=en ➢TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@nsimayinyang?lang=en Follow Andrew Zaragoza on all platforms ➢ https://direct.me/iamandrewz

Power Project family, how's it going? This episode is brought to you by Vivo Barefoot Shoes. These shoes we've been wearing for almost a year now, and we love them because they're great for our feet. Wide toe box, minimal shoe, they're flexible, but they also don't look like shit. A lot of barefoot shoes, when you see them and you put them on, you're actually asking

for people to make fun of you. But these shoes actually look really fucking good. Yes, dude, they look good, no one's gonna make fun of you. But these shoes actually look really f***ing good. Yes, dude. They look good. No one's going to make fun of you and you don't even need a man bun to wear these shoes. You can just put them on inside the gym,

outside of the gym. You're going to look good. You're going to feel good and your feet are going to get stronger. You guys got to head over to vivobarefoot.com slash powerproject. When you guys go there, you'll see a backstory

on why we love these shoes so much. But when you're ready to purchase, make sure you guys use promo code PowerProject20 to save 20% off. Links to them down in the description, as well as the podcast show notes. PowerProject family, how's it going? Today, we have Anya, the Barefoot Shoe Queen on the podcast. Her website is Anya's Reviews, where she has reviewed hundreds of different Barefoot shoe brands. There's a lot of brands in the space. Now, we particularly for shoes like Vivo Barefoot, but for barefoot sandals, I've been rocking these Earthrunners

and Ania talked about Shama sandals, which we're going to get our hands on soon. I'm really excited about that. We also all wear Vibrams. So for all of these brands, if you are interested in any of those brands, you can use code POWERPROJECT at checkout to save you some money.

But in the description below is all that information. But if you do want to check out even more barefoot those brands, you can use code POWERPROJECT at checkout to save you some money. But in the description below is all that information. But if you do want to check out even more Barefoot Shoe brands, go to onhearsreviews.com where you can see even more. Hope you guys enjoy this episode. I'm ready. You're ready. We only yell at our female guests. Oh, good.

Very loudly. Yes. We're very aggressive. We're extreme. Played very well. We don't understand females well. And we don't let them speak. We yell a lot. Yeah. It's kind of just how we roll. We're't understand females well. And we don't let them speak. We yell a lot.

We're very angry. All the time. You're going to be training the finger extensors? Yeah, I already commented on those. This guy needs more training, right? That's what you noticed when you walked in, right? He's looking a little soft. See, she knows it too, man.

She's like, what the fuck are you doing over there? I'm like, just training my fingers. I just picture Nsema driving down the street laughing as he's going to the jiu-jitsu, training his fingers. He's training his tibia on the left side. He's got his right foot pointed straight on the gas so it's not externally rotated. And then he somehow has an iron neck contraption in his car. So when he checks his mirrors all the time, he's just like.

Steeping, wondering at everything. And when he walks into jujitsu, there's like smoke. And like Iron Man is playing. And he walks through the smoke. And everyone clears out. And then everyone's like, where'd those lights come from? Like those strobe lights weren't there a second ago. And then he's always like, no, no, no.

It's not like that. But I've talked to people over there. And they say it's like that everyone like starts looking at their watch when this guy shows up for jujitsu like oh my god i got that appointment that i forgot about before we get all the questions this is just a brand called drop sky on amazon does everyone always be asking drop sky finger extensors you will see them they have level one those wrists are always going to be skinny, bro. I know. Okay, my girlfriend comments on it all the time and you don't need to comment on it

here. I come here to escape that shit. Your wrist needs to go on a diet. It needs to eat a sandwich or something like that. Oh, God. All right, so we've been diving into this whole foot thing and how did you end up diving into this whole foot thing? And how did you end up diving into this whole foot thing?

Because you have a whole entire Instagram devoted to all these different kind of shoes that you're sharing with people that hopefully fit people better and leave people or help people get out of pain. Yeah, I know. Who would have thought that I could have had my career surrounding shoes? I honestly never expected this. But I had foot problems really since I was a kid, actually. I was never expected this, but I had foot problems really since I was a kid. Actually, I was nine, put in orthotics. I had tendinitis as a nine-year-old, just for no apparent reason, except according to my doctor, I needed support. Was there any sports you were playing at the time?

Nope. I have hypermobility, so my joints are kind of lax. So I had flat feet. You know, I go to the doctor. I've got flat feet. They're like, oh, you need arch support. So I had nine arch support. That was just my life from then on out. Didn't really question it. Used it for everything. Anytime I went on walks or exercise, running, sports, had to have them.

Otherwise, I would feel it the next day. After I had some children, which kind of messes with your joints a little bit, I started getting really- Makes your feet bigger too. Is that a rumor or is that real? It's real. Totally real. Yeah. The hormones relax your joints. So then a lot of women get feet that are just sort of splayed out really wide. It can come back, but it doesn't always.

So it might dissipate after your pregnancy or something like that. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. It does for some people. So after a couple of kids, I was in a lot of foot pain and nothing was helping. And so I went to the podiatrist and they were like, okay, well, now you need to be wearing shoes all the time, not just when you're out, but like all the time and make sure they can't bend.

And, you know, like, you know, I was like 29 years old and I was being told that I needed to wear orthopedic shoes 100% of the time. Yeah. Those are like lunch lady shoes, right? That's what we're talking about, right? Yeah, exactly. You know, Velcro, like the whole thing. The Reebok black ones, right? Those are fucking hot.

What could I search for? I want to see if I can find them. Oh, yeah, you'll find them right away. They're unbelievable. They're pretty sexy. Yeah, you guys will be going. Can't wait. Go ahead.

No, no, no. Did you ever actually wear those shoes? So I tried not to, but I did have to have a pair of sneakers that was just like my day in, day out. Yeah. So I would go to Fleet Feet and I would get one and I'd come home and I'd wear it for a while. But the problem was my big toe was. I mean, guys, honestly, you see a chick walking down the street and those it's over yeah right she don't know it but that's wifey yeah modesty that's what that is modesty look it up it's birth control oh god yeah so I wasn't really so thrilled about that.

But I couldn't find anything that didn't hurt because my big toe was the thing that was – it was so inflamed. It just – it hurt so bad. Anything touching it. And guess what? Everything touches your big toe. And all of those shoes were not just touching it but like actually pushing it in so I would go through shoe after shoe after shoe couldn't find anything until I found a pair of ultras at Fleet Feet and they have a foot-shaped toe box and so for the first time in like a year my toe wasn't being pushed in and it was was like, I couldn't believe for one thing

that it was so hard to find a shoe like this and that I had never noticed before. Like, how had I never noticed before that every single shoe I was wearing was pushing my big toe in? And now it kind of made a lot more sense. One of the reasons why I was in pain was because of the footwear I had been wearing. So I got myself a pair of ultras and I started wearing those, but I still had to be wearing shoes all the time with arch support in it. So I swapped out the insole and I put in my own custom orthotic, you know, that was expensive and that I had to use insurance for and all that and have to replace. So I was in that all the time. In the

middle of the night, I'd crawl to the bathroom or I'd put on Birkenstocks because I couldn't walk barefoot. My feet hurt standing in the shower. So I was like, I'm just not okay with this. Like, it just doesn't seem right. I'm, you know, now I'm 30. You look extremely healthy too. it seem right. I'm, you know, now I'm 30. You look extremely healthy too. Well, I'm a lot healthier now because of this whole thing. But, but I wasn't, I didn't have any other, you know, big conditions at the time, but why was I so miserable? Why couldn't I move? And why can't I just walk? Why can't I just walk? What's going on? My friend, after seeing me struggle, was like, hey, maybe you should check out this foot strengthening barefoot shoes as an alternative. And I was like, you know what, at this point, literally anything I will try. You know, I was staring down surgery. They were

saying, okay, surgeries, you know, we could try that. We could try cortisone shot. What type of surgery were they even thinking of doing at that point? A fusion, big toe fusion. So what does that consist of? Like, do you know what they do? I don't know exactly what they do, but they remove, I think that it's like they take out the joint so that it can't bend anymore. Wow. Okay. Which is, you know, so if sometimes people get that in their back if they have no cartilage and they're bone on bone, they're in a lot of pain.

They'll fuse it so that there's no movement, there's no pain anymore. But then what happens is all of the motion that would be going in that joint gets moved to the next joint. So guess what happens 10 years later? You need another surgery. So, you know, and it's not even directing or addressing the cause. It was just, hey, you're still in pain a year and a half later. Let's just try surgery. Why not? You know, this is what we do. We prescribe orthotics and we

do surgeries. So I was pretty keen to avoid that. So I started looking into foot strengthening and minimalist shoes. And the book I started with was called Whole Body Barefoot by Katie Bowman, which is a great entry level. I was in a really low point just kind of with everything. So it was very accessible to me. A lot of the strengthening stuff was really intimidating because I was coming off of pregnancy. I had been immobile for a year and a half. I couldn't do a whole lot. So I needed something basic.

And I also needed some optimism. So it was really great. And it kind of just like flipped a switch in my brain. And it made a whole lot of sense that I could actually rehabilitate my feet. I had literally been doing nothing with them for years. I'd been trying to rest them, trying to let them heal, immobilize them with the stiff shoes. So they weren't moving at all. And quick question.

How many years ago was this versus where you are now? Because when people pull up your Instagram and they see your feet, like your feet, the spread you have and the tendon thickness. It's just like, God damn, this woman has some strong ass feet. So how long did that take? And then we'll get back to where you were. So it's been six years. That's wow. Yeah.

Okay. That's sick. That's, that's motivating. So injury for, you know, year and a half. Injury for, you know, year and a half. And then I started baseline zero, basically, you know, like very basic, like lifting up the toes, doing the foot exercises, trying to walk on textures. And but also thinking about how the foot interacts with the pelvis. So like I kind of needed to work on like single leg balance to make sure that I was getting my glutes and my hips and all of that involved. And really basic stuff working on from there.

And at the same time, I was still wearing the support. So I didn't just ditch the shoes. I had to strengthen outside of that on my own and then kind of really slowly taper down my support. That's in the orthotic? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So I would remove the orthotic and then I put it back in.

I'd keep it in usually for like longer walks, take it out for shorter walks, and just kind of slowly over time. It took me a year to get off of the orthotics. And that's me. So the orthotic would help a bit? Yeah. A little bit help a bit? Yeah. A little bit here and there? Yeah, because it relieves pressure.

You don't have to be supporting yourself completely with the orthotic. That's important I think to know is that the orthotic and the shoe would help for where you are at, for the condition that you had. But to get out of it, you had to train your foot. Right. But to get out of it, you had to train your foot. Right. And that's where the nuance comes in is that stiff shoes, supportive shoes, orthotics, they have a place for some people at some times. It's just a question of are we just sitting there and not trying to question why we might need them and if we could move away from them, if there's something we can do.

And so that was me. I was finally saying, okay, why don't I just try and see what I can do about this? You know, I can strengthen a bum shoulder. I can, you know, heal a broken knee or, you know, broken knee. I don't know where that came from. You know, things heal. We can rehab them with intentional focus and strengthening. So I started doing that with my feet. And then once I was able to get rid of the orthotic, I started going down in cushion. So I went from ultras down to lower stack height shoes. And now I walk and run miles barefoot. I wear the thinnest shoes 100% of the time no art

support haven't worn art support in five years and my feet are better than they've ever been and sometimes I want to call it my podiatrist not to be a bitch but to just say motherfucker why'd you do this to me you know i have respect like for training that people go through yeah but when your expertise is in surgery you know if when you're a hammer, everything's a nail. So the field of rehabbing the feet, that's not what you get when you go to podiatry, when you go to a podiatrist or you go to a doctor. And it was something that I had to completely scope out on my own. And so that's kind of why I'm really passionate about it is because it affects your quality of life so much. I was really depressed,

you know, it was hard. Like it really sucked. It affects your quality of life and you can't find the resources, but there's something that almost everybody can do, something you can start with. So that's kind of where my drive came from is like realizing that it was such a huge thing and that it wasn't just me. Like so many people have foot pain. So many people have foot pain. It's going to get you at one point or another, whether you're sedentary or not, you know, whatever sport you do, people have plantar fasciitis, people have bunions, I have hammer toes. And it's like just kind of accepted. And we just try to support and, you know, support and support and support and cushion and cushion and cushion without figuring out why. Why does it hurt and what could we do

about it? So I think of this as the long-term solution, but that it might be any number of ways to get there and it's going to look different for everybody. And for me, you know, it was a long, it was a long journey. I think what can be discouraging is that you might see something on Instagram or you might see somebody sharing something and maybe they're rolling their foot on a lacrosse ball or something. And you're like, man, my feet hurt a lot. I'm going to try that. And then you try it. And it probably at your stage, when you were just starting like that might've not been a great place to start. It might have hurt too much. Yeah. And then days after, your feet might hurt even worse.

So it could be really discouraging to even get started. Yeah. It's – you never say never and you never say always. Nothing applies to everybody. So that is so hard with the way social media works today and especially because there's no solid resource to go. So I was looking online and I was following people and I, you know, I really had to say, okay, I'm going to pass on that because it's not for me. I'm going to go with this one. And then when it's no longer working for me, I'm going to go with this one. You know, I was really, really figuring it out on my own as I went along. And I had to deal with that where the expectations of,

oh, I'm going to change my shoes and then bam, life's going to be great overnight and realizing, okay, that's not my story. Maybe that was that person's story, but I got to figure out how I'm going to get there. So it was more of, it was really a belief that muscles can get, you know, we can train our bodies basically. That was kind of like my driving thing. And then I was just, I just had to figure out how to, how it was going to work for me. Yeah. And for the parents, actually, I want to, I want to mention this because like, when I was a teenager, my mom, you know, I, I had flat feet.

So they gave me custom orthotics too. And I played soccer with that. I ended up having to get surgery on like, I got a bunionette removed from the right side of my foot cause my cleats were super narrow. So that was happening. So they shaved the bone off here and put a screw in my foot. Right. But I had flat foot, flat feet for a while until I started working them.

Right. Started working my feet, doing different exercises. And like now I have an arch. Like I don't have, so like so many people are told they have flat feet, but it's not that they have flat feet. It's just that they don't use their feet enough. All my shoes were super padded. You know, all my shoes were not zero drops.

I wasn't using my feet as much as I could. And even though I played sports, there was some mitigation of that, but it still didn't go away. So that's why like easing yourself in with something like ultras and like for me going back and forth between some vivos. And then when my feet would hurt too much, wearing some normal shoes while my feet were like adapting to that new stimulus, that allowed me to make the transition a lot easier. So it's not, it's not just like you wear the shoe, everything's better. You wear the shoe, you come across new challenges that you know how to figure out how to deal

with, and then you adjust from there. What about for some people maybe just trying to just take their shoes off when they can? And this would obviously be for somebody who's not in tons of pain, but would that maybe be a good place to start? It's like you don't know what shoe to order. You don't want to maybe risk ordering it online and getting the wrong size. Because a lot of these shoes, they fit way better than... Most people are wearing shoes that don't fit them properly. True. Very true.

I think most people are walking around with shoes that don't fit them properly. And when you start to get a five-finger toe shoe or you get get ultras or something, you're going to find out quickly that you're probably a much different size in those shoes than you probably thought. So do you think just for some people that are listening, just maybe a quick thing for some people to explore is just, I don't know, see if you can do more stuff, maybe barefoot or just in your socks or something like that? Yeah, absolutely. In fact, I actually recommend doing that before, even if you are ready to go out and purchase. I say just wait a little bit and start doing what you can at home and figure out if being barefoot is really uncomfortable for you, then that's maybe a sign that you can't just jump right into it.

Or if you do, say you want to just get those Vivo Barefoot shoes, then be aware that you're not going to go out and wear them all day on the first day. You might wear them for 20 minutes and then switch to your others. So I say, see how you feel barefoot before you buy shoes, because that's going to kind of guide you on the type of shoe you want to get first. But also, it's just so good for you. And even if you are in pain, I mean, I think you should be careful. I don't think that you should hurt yourself. But if your feet are in pain in shoes,

you might be surprised at how they feel when you're barefoot on grass or in, like, sand. Because you have all this nerve stimulation. You don't have to go run on it. You know, just walk in the circle for a few minutes or even just stand there, you know, listen to a song and just like wander around a little bit on the grass. And that might actually bring relief. So I definitely recommend it. Be safe, though. You know, mind your environment. Some people, if you have diabetes or, yeah, neuropathy, then you want to be really careful about those types of things because if you get a cut, it could be pretty serious.

So definitely, you know, everybody needs to take the control over those types of things. But if you can, if it's safe for you, then yes, by all means, like as much as you can. And then if it starts to hurt, then, you know, fine, go inside, put some shoes on. That's totally fine. You got some exposure, your feet got stimulated, and that is going to bring more blood flow. It's going to tell your body it's okay. It's going to send signals to lay down more tissue. So like you can get more calluses and not like the kind of like the gross peely kind, but like a thick uniform, like my feet don't have individual calluses in specific spots. The whole bottom is just thick, thicker skin. And it's like

healthy tissue. It's not dead skin skin and when you walk barefoot you actually over time your body starts laying down more tissue there and then you become more comfortable barefoot and it's just kind of like this cycle where you start it and then you can build up and it takes it does take time like you know i've been walking barefoot for years now and this year i'm like like damn my feet i really love like i'm like Like, you know, I've been walking barefoot for years now. And this year I'm like, like, damn, my feet. I really love like I'm like walking on, you know, like some hard stuff. And and that's taken me, you know, six years. Yeah.

Your feet look really nice. I should comment on that. They do. Like your your toes are wider than your actual. Yeah, your toes are wider than your actual foot. Do you think that that's a goal for a lot of people? Is that like what it should – I know we're all a little different, but like should our toes be splayed out wider than our actual foot or even with it or so? And before, was your foot different?

Like did you have that toe splay that you kind of have now or was it – yeah, was it similar? So to answer – I'll answer your question first, Encima. similar? So to answer, I'll answer your question first, Encima. My feet were never, I didn't have bunions or hammer toes. So it's true that my toes were straight before, but they were never splayed out. So the angle was straight and then now it's angled out. So I've got like a fan shape. But the main difference between my feet now and then is the strength, which I could pull up later if you want me to show you a photo that I have from 2018 and then I compare it to now. And it's like a foot that hasn't worked a day in its life versus a foot that's been working out in the gym, You know, like just the...

Look at that foot. My toes were thinner. You know, everything was kind of like thinner, looked not so muscular. And now they do. So that's the biggest difference for me. I didn't correct bunions or hammer toes. So that's a little bit of a different thing.

You know, some people who come with that might not see as much of a change. You can affect that. You can have your toes splay out depending on how advanced your bunion is, but you might always have a little bit of a protrusion there. Oh, wow. Yeah. Flip-flops are a little bit of a lazy thing, right? I don't think you promote just a regular old flip-flops, right? Because I think some people listening might be like, oh, I'll just – it's summertime. I'll just jump in my flip-flops. Yeah.

So flip-flops are a deceptive minimalist shoe because people think of them as a minimalist shoe. But the problem is that they don't stay on your feet well. Yeah. that they don't stay on your feet well. So they flop around and people will push their big toe down in order to keep it. So if someone's running in flip-flops and you record them in slow motion, you'll see that they are holding the flip-flop to their foot with their big toe. But if you run barefoot, then your toes go up and down. They move. And you can't do that in a flip-flop to their foot with their big toe. But if you run barefoot, then your toes go up and down. They move. And you can't do that in a flip-flop.

What you have in this video, I really hope people watch the visual of this podcast because you have tons of shoes on the table. And in this video, we're watching somebody walk with flip-flop. And right away, you see the inside ankle bone roll kind of low, which we just had a whole podcast talking to our GODA friends about that. And I think it's pretty agreed upon that that's not a great way to walk, to kind of walk off the instep of your foot. Especially if you're somebody like what I always recommend is, you know, people might be like, I'm fine.

I don't have any symptoms. And if you don't have any symptoms at the moment, then maybe you are okay. And if you don't have any symptoms at the moment, then maybe you are okay. But if you're somebody that has knee pain or somebody that has pain in the hips and pain in the lower back, please listen to some of these messages that we have. They can be really powerful for you. Finding a right shoe to fit is a really tough thing for some people. And I think what makes it hard is when you go to a department store or something like that, you go to a sporting goods store. The shoes that we're looking at oftentimes are too narrow for us. So a lot of times, I don't know if Nsema has done the same thing, but I'd always just get like a full size bigger of a shoe. And I was like, well, no big deal. Like it doesn't fit that good,

but I don't care. At least I got some space. So luckily for me, I wasn't really in any sports that required me to wear anything like really form fitting and tight as I got older. I was just a power lifter. So I'd always walk around with my shoes untied the way I had these untied today to leave some extra space for my fluffy foot. And I'd always get like a shoe, like one shoe size bigger. And that was to try to help with the width of my foot. One of the problems was though, is that I would develop calluses that were painful or like a corn or something stupid like that in these weird areas because the shoe didn't fit me properly. Like the curve of the shoe and stuff like that was in a slightly different place than where it should be.

And then I would get like friction and it would start to rub and I would be in tons of pain. I'd be in so much pain that sometimes I'd be on a walk and it would almost bring me to my knees. I was like this, like, and it was, it's hard to describe, but it felt like somebody pushing a pin very aggressively into like the side of my foot and they would go away. So I could like deal with it. I could manage it and get my walks in. But man, I was in a lot of pain for a long time. And as I started finding

shoes that fit better, that had a wider toe box, I mean, the first thing I did is I went to just wider shoes. But for some reason, I was having a lot of problems with those two. Those weren't working and I needed a shoe that was designed completely differently. So how does somebody start to find a shoe that's going to fit them better? It is really hard to walk into a department store and find a shoe that's going to fit, and that's just kind of the sad state of shoes right now. And I think it's just kind of a combination of fashion and just where the market went, and now nobody's used to shoes that work for feet.

So it just keeps going that way. That's what factories are used to making. So that is the biggest challenge is just practically what do we do next now that we know that this shoe is, like, symmetrical and pointy and it has a huge heel and it's stiff and that's not good. I think that knowing what you are looking for in a shoe, yeah, exactly. Case in point. These hurt really bad.

And it looks wide at the bottom, you know? It kind of looks wide. Wide here. Yeah. But then it still comes to a point there. Yeah, and your toes are all squished in. They suck. These are a pair of Nike Air Max, whatever the hell they are.

The Nike Casts. Yeah. They suck. These are a pair of Nike Air Max, whatever the hell they are. The Nike Casts. Yeah. So I think just firstly understanding what you're looking for in a shoe is probably the most powerful thing you can do because marketing will throw you around if you let it. And there might be companies in the future who, and I've seen it a little bit who start adopting some of this this language barefoot shoes zero drop etc and you have to know whether or not they actually are good for you on your own

and if you are looking for a thin shoe that's flat or as flat as possible you know you can kind of feel it with your hands inside check under the in insole, see if there's a raised, like a little wedge or if the insole has a cushion on it. You can go into a department store or to Target or Walmart or a thrift store. I've done this in a thrift store. And you can just start mashing on the shoes and seeing if they bend and seeing if they're flat and then checking out the shape, see if it will fit. If you're going to go that route, then it is a little bit harder and you are going to want to go for materials that's kind of stretchy and soft, like leather can be stretched or mesh.

The other option is to go for barefoot shoes that are marketed and branded as barefoot shoes. And then that's a little easier because you know that they are going to meet some minimum criteria. They're going to be zero drop, which means totally flat from heel to toe. And they're going to not have arch support. And they're going to have a mostly anatomical foot shape. So there's a spread, though. Some of them are huge and some of them are kind of more relatively narrow, but they should all at least not come to a point. So they should allow for some more

space for the outer toes. So that's kind of where my whole work came in was because I realized how hard it was to find these types of shoes. And it is a barrier. I mean, it's more challenging to order online and to not know for sure if they're going to fit and have to worry about returning them, especially some of these brands are overseas. And so it is a challenge. So I have spent a lot of time researching the options there so I can say, OK, a compromised shoe or accidentally minimalist shoe that might be more approachable for you or minimalist but has some cushion or, you know, extremely minimal and huge toe box for like the purists out there with wide feet to help kind of guide people so that they're not just like ordering and returning and then giving up because it feels overwhelming. What about if somebody wanted just a little extra padding? Could they get just a – could they order maybe an extra sole or something like that? Like if you buy one of these shoes, I'm just asking like if this would be a decent idea for somebody.

And you just say like you buy a Vivo barefoot shoe and you kind of dig them, but you do want a little extra padding, are there options for that or is that a bad idea? There are options for that. So I used my orthotic at first, but if you aren't doing that or you don't need that, then don't. If you don't need support, arch support, then don't use it. There are insoles that are what i would call barefoot friendly they're flat they are flexible and they they no support it just adds a little bit more cushion

so the one that i use is called north soul one word um and that is actually how i got through kind of my first year because i was like I'm gonna do this like straight into the minimal the most minimal and then I was hurting like it was it was really hard and my feet were so I got these insoles and I just put them in my vivo barefoot shoes so then I didn't have to buy a transition shoe I was able to just start with the most minimal and then add that in. It worked great for me. I used it for a year and then I kind of swapped back and forth a little bit and then now I don't use it. So that's a good, that's a good option if you want to try to make one pair of shoe work a little bit longer or say you you've got like a 12-hour shift and you're a nurse

and you just need something one day. You know, you've got that option. You can throw it in there if you're having a more painful day. You're going somewhere on vacation and you're going to walk a lot. Maybe you bring those extra soles with you or something like that. Yeah, totally. What have you noticed, if you have noticed, what has been the difference in terms of the way that you walk if there has been? Because one thing

we've noticed is we've been having more movement people on is like, even the way we walk has been changed. You know, like our feet are pointed straight more forward. The way we dissipate our weight within our feet. I don't think that's something I used to pay attention to, but it's different now. So how did that change if it did for you? Yeah, that's a really interesting question. And for sure, the way we live affects the way we move, right? You know, we sit for eight hours a day and we think we get up and we're standing straight, but no, we're still, our body is still sort of holding on to some of that chair position a little bit. And it's the same thing with our walk. So if we don't use our feet very much, thing with our walk so if we don't use our feet very much then they're going to start moving differently and a lot of people have um a really exaggerated turnout when they walk you know like

a i called it the duck walk yeah yeah which is kind of like a balance compensation if you're not as stable if you don't feel as stable with your feet straight forward, then you might go like this and then kind of like lean forward a little bit into it, throw your hips forward. People will overstride a lot and land really hard on their heel. That's a really common thing that people do. And then they wear minimalist shoes and it's like, oh, dang, that hurts. Like can't walk like that anymore. So those are just a couple of things that I noticed in myself that I had a pretty pronounced turnout that was a weakness compensation.

And then also that when I walked fast, I defaulted to this like pounding, you know, fast, I defaulted to this like pounding, you know, like this, like throw that foot out in front of me and just like slam down. So it took me a while to have a walk that was a lot more like core focused and not just like, I'm going to throw myself out there and then fall. But like, uh, I could stop at any point, you know, I could lift my foot up and I could just stop. And that, that tells me that I have a more, more control over my gait. And that gait is so tricky and it's like way outside my expertise. I can't advise anybody on gait, but I just went on my own journey and I found that over

time with the strengthening, not just the feet, but kind of the whole thing and making sure that I was balanced both inside and outside and front and back and mobility wise, I had range of motion that naturally my gait changed and I started walking more softly and, you know, my glutes were working while I was walking and things like that started happening. And then that kind of coincided with being more and more comfortable. And now I go on vacation. I spend all day in the airport and I wear the thinnest shoes and I don't have a problem. So it's not so much, in my opinion, not so much the surfaces we're walking on.

It's more the adaptations that we've, if we're adapted to being on those types of surfaces. And that's a cool side effect of, you know, everybody makes their transition at their own pace. But like this Nike shoe up here, if you're watching the video, when you wear those types of shoes, you're able to slam into the heel without feeling that, that reaver back up your body. Right. But then when you were, when you wear a shoe with a very thin sole, zero drop, and you try walking the same way, you're like, Oh Jesus Christ, what the fuck? Like every, you have to walk softer over time. And then that will align. It'll change your gait. Um, but for, for you, I'm actually curious cause you said you, you did have some of that outward turning of the feet over time. And you did some training.

You did single foot stuff, balancing work. But did you do a lot of strength training for anything or did you just like over time slowly? What are some big things that you did that you think people could just start trying to do? that you think people could just start trying to do? So I did do Pilates for a while, which was really helpful for core strength, spinal strength, and I noticed some big changes there. It seems really hard.

Is it pretty hard, Pilates? Yeah, it's hard. Pilates ain't no joke. I mean, you're like stretching and moving like resistance, right, at the same time, kind of? Yeah, when you're on the reformer on the machines. Yeah. No, it's pretty tough. It was challenging and it was what I needed because it was low impact.

And so I was able – you start with just body weight stuff. Yeah. And that really made a difference for me personally. Now I have kettlebells and I have resistance bands and I try to add load to squats and things like that so that I'm progressing strength wise. There's so much you can do, though, that it's like there's just not one right way. But definitely, I think that you will benefit more if you strength train i guess basically um yeah that's that's that's kind of what i did it was just a little bit of everything did you do any stuff with like your like the uh did you do anything specific with your toes and toe control and stuff like that or

yeah just curious what that looks like toe Toe yoga. And I'm curious about this stuff. A routine for his feet now. I'm curious about this stuff because this looks like it would be fun slash painful slash challenging slash comfortable in massaging. So that's passive stuff. And I like to do a lot. I like to do both. Do the foot strengthening, the toe yoga. And I have band, like you can take a rubber band and put it around both toes and spread it out and then do this thing. Or you can put a band underneath your first met head. So underneath the base of your big toe.

Yeah. Stretch it out and then like squat with it so that you have to hold it down. And if your foot goes like this, then the elastic band goes flying. So I love things like that for foot strengthening. I find them extremely helpful for learning how to engage the foot while you're moving. But the, that, that Andrew pulled up is, um, passive stuff that you can do to just sort of supplement. So if you spend a lot of time indoors, then you can add things to your house to add texture to your feet. We need that for the show.

What can we do during the show that won't be too distracting to people so we can have jacked feet? We need to buy that shit. Mats. That is a Neboso mat. And I love those. They actually have insoles too. And I wear them in my shoes a lot.

If I'm in the wintertime and I don't get as much outdoor texture, then I will put those insoles in my shoes. And they're like little bumpy things. So they stimulate all your nerves, which it just makes it easier to stand. You know, you get blood flow, more blood flow. It helps with your balance. Are they like the uh i remember like adidas had those those like slides that had like little nubs all over them are they similar or is that like way different it's it's i guess maybe sort of similar but these ones are smaller okay

and they're not squishy so it's hard and they're pointy they're, it's not like sharp, but like they come to a point. They're little pyramids. And so it's really great for the nerves. What's the deal with, are you a fan of like grounding, earthing? I haven't done a lot of research in that and I don't really buy into it that much myself. Maybe I did. Maybe I would if I, if I started researching it. I try not to talk about stuff I don't know. So I don't mention it very much just because I haven't dug into it. But just being outside barefoot, we do know that it does stimulate the nerves and it

can be calming to the nervous system. And it also immediately improves your gait and your posture and all those types of things. So that's more what I focus on. But there are some brands that have little grounding plugs that are meant to offload electrons. And again, I just don't know a whole lot about that. And just getting outside, getting some sunlight and getting your feet in the dirt or the grass. Right. You can ground the grass. Right. You can ground barefoot. Right.

So I don't necessarily – unless you are in shoes all the time, then maybe you want to check that out a little bit. But I just like to go out and actually ground barefoot instead of in shoes. I think our body is just like – it's a computer. barefoot instead of in shoes. I think our body is just like a computer. Even somebody who's not overly athletic or fast or any of those things, powerful maybe,

they don't feel any of those things. If you walk and you're barefoot and you step on a pebble or a rock or something sharp, you move quickly no matter who you are, no matter how you normally walk and stuff like that. So I think the body, knowing that the body is a computer, we're getting a lot of input from our foot making contact with the ground.

And then that's going to dictate how we walk. And if you have a shoe that has tons of padding just all over it, especially in the heel, then you might just walk haphazardly whatever way you'd like and continue to walk that way all the time. And then we're really curious on why our back hurts and why this hurts and why that hurts. And I'm not saying it's always because of the shoe, but it definitely could be part of it. You were mentioning earlier like running barefoot. Are you actually running barefoot or are you running in barefoot shoes? I actually run barefoot. Oh, on whatfoot oh on what like on the pavement on the pavement yeah you are

damn wow monster but you did say that now the skin on the bottom of your feet is just like like yeah right that's wild how long you've been doing that for about a year and a half but of course i live in iowa so the time that i can do that is you know like six months For about a year and a half. But of course, I live in Iowa. So the time that I can do that is, you know, like six months or less a year. Cannot do it year round. But I started that way for the purposes of gait training, because you can't run poorly if you're barefoot on concrete. You know, that ground is going to teach you if you're landing wrong. So I would do really short distances and it was because I didn't feel confident. I wasn't a runner before. And after my whole thing with not even being able to walk,

it was like, I don't even know how to run. So being in shoes felt, it was like blinding my nerves you know like i felt like i wasn't as confident so i was like i'm just gonna try it barefoot and i liked it so much so i just slowly increased the time and never really stopped do you have a route that's like not that hard to run on or or is it is it just you're in your neighborhood? Yeah, my neighborhood is – fortunately, I don't have to worry about too much crap on the actual pavement. I tend to avoid the grass just because of dog shit. Yeah. So that's kind of – I would sometimes want to run on the grass but I'm a little nervous too.

You know, I would sometimes want to run on the grass, but I'm a little nervous, too. But trail running, too, is something that I've been wanting to get into barefoot, which is like feels a little bit like next level because of the ankle, you know, all that. Aren't there like little rocks on trails, too, though? Yeah. And when you say barefoot, you mean barefoot, barefoot, no socks, no barefoot shoes. Barefoot, barefoot. Yeah, there's all kinds of barefoot. there's all kinds of shit on a trail i'm just thinking like even when i was running the other day and i'm i was in my vibrams like just the uh the road that i was on is just it's just pretty

beat up it's like it was near the ocean and it's just like the ground is just jacked up and there's a lot of like little pebbles like gravel on there so i'm like i'm running and i'm like ow ow ow ow there's a whole time there's like like pebbles and then now because it's been so dry like branches that like just like shards and they're just like super sharp and i was like oh that would suck to take one to the foot you know like that shit concerns me but that kind of of, and you said you've been, you've been experimenting with this for the past year or a little longer? Well, so I've been barefoot walking, which, you know, walk before you run, right?

Oh yeah. So I've been barefoot walking for now six years. Okay. Walking. And so the running has been more for just a year and a half. I'm really feeling very inferior over here. Oh, absolutely. Are you guys feeling that?

Oh, good. But this is exciting. You know, Encima and his hand things over there are intimidating me. No, but this is actually really exciting. The fact that you're out there on concrete running barefoot and on trails and your feet are your feet are doing just fine.

You know, like I found it kind of surprising how how kind of easy it was to run in this. Like I'll run on concrete with this and then there's like some – we have like rocky trails around the area too, and I'll run. What's that shoe called again? These are Earthrunners.

I really want to – these are really good. I really dig these as barefoot sandals. She – on Anya's website, she has a whole list of like the best barefoot sandals, and I think those were number one and these were number two. So I'm really interested in trying the Shamas. But these zero ones, they're, uh, yeah, these are challenges. But, you know, it's really cool that you can like, you can actually run in those sandals. Like I, those are like my daily driver.

I've been using these all the time. I jump rope, I can run them. And yeah, I guess the next step is just doing it with nothing on the bottom of my time. Jumping rope and everything. I jump rope. I can run them. And yeah, I guess the next step is just doing it with nothing on the bottom of my feet. Look at this flex though. Damn. Yo, dude. Is there an issue with socks sometimes as well? Yeah.

Good question. I get that question a lot. So there are toe socks, which everybody loves toe socks, right? Yeah, yeah. I avoided them for a long time. I was like, I'm just not going to wear socks because I'm not wearing those toe socks. They're just too ugly for you?

No, I know. It's surprising. Too ugly for me when... But finally, it was winter time and I just could not convince... I just couldn't keep the regular socks, quote-unquote regular socks on. You know, they're symmetrical. They're shaped kind of like shoes are. I would put those on and then take them off. I just couldn't do it. So I finally got some toe socks

and fortunately they are not all like rainbow colored like I grew up with. They've got plain, solid colored ones and you can wear them with your dress shoes and whatnot and um i also experimented with things like leg warmers so it's basically like a sock but with the top cut off those look funny it's like oh okay but the point is you have some warm well for me at least it's usually warmth sometimes it's for like protection from blisters from the shoe or if people don't want to get their shoes stinky. So toe socks for sure are great. Leg warmers are another good option. And then they have anatomical socks, a few, that have a left and a right. So they've got a foot shape to them with the right, you know, big toe and the left big toe

so that they're not squishing them together. I still prefer the toe socks because when you put your foot in a shoe, it kind of pulls on the sock a little bit. And I find that that still restricts my toes. So toe socks is just kind of my preference or no socks. I wear a lot of my shoes. Why do we need socks? Isn't it weird? Smell my earth runners.

Go for it. It's a weird thing though. It's just strange. It's like tank tops too, right? Sometimes you can get really ripe just wearing a tank top but a shirt, you're okay. Yeah, because you need something to filter it all out, I guess. How do you handle it?

You said you don't wear socks sometimes, right? Most of the time. I don't wear socks. Do you just not have sweaty feet? No, I think you get used to it because I can go without socks sometimes too and it's not a huge problem. Depends on the shoe. Depends on the shoe? I don't.

My feet sweat, but I don't normally get stinky shoes. I will wash them though if they get kind of rank. And my kids' shoes do. So I will wash their shoes. Just in the washer? Washer dryer? Yeah. You know, some shoes maybe not.

Like if they're nicer and I want them to not change shape at all. But I wash a lot of shoes that get dirty. Because I mean their shoes. Kids' shoes get really bad. Their shoes. Like they're on the ground. Yeah. You know, like they're not going to stay perfect and pristine.

And washing them has worked out pretty well for me. I do believe that healthier feet are less prone to bacteria, but I don't think that that's a rule. I think that some people just have – are more prone to it. Yeah, there's a lot of sweat glands in your feet, right? And so your feet get sweaty. And some shoes are less breathable. So if you wear those, like Vivos, I love the brand, but some of those sneakers, they make my kids' feet smell so bad.

You mean the casual ones, right? Yeah, they're not. The weather-resistant ones can get pretty enclosed. And the ones that are recycled plastic. Oh, really? They're pretty sweaty. Yeah. What about kids' shoes? We were talking a little bit beforehand and i was just explaining like i went through months of just trying to find

something and i did find some on amazon that worked out really well because we did try the uh we tried vivos um i just couldn't stuff my son's fat feet in there like i needed something that could literally just like open up and then i just wrap his shoe in or wrap his foot in. Let me pull these ones up. So I ended up getting him these. These work out perfectly because this one piece of Velcro just comes completely off and then they are flat. They are, you know, obviously pretty much all kids shoes at this point are going to be fairly wide. But you have some recommendations because I did find a bunch on your site, but I don't know how to measure his feet in centimeters and everything was all overseas.

It was really difficult. But, yeah, what advice do you have for that? little bit easier actually because they should be extremely thin and flexible and flat and all those types of things. Generally, a structured sole is just not needed. Baby shoes, you can find a lot like that, but you also have to know to just pass on anything with the heel or that stiff because it's just absolutely not necessary for a small child. Once they get a little bit older, then it becomes pretty tricky because for some reason we have this weird disconnect where baby shoes are like, oh, we can't interfere with their walking. They need to feel the ground. They need to be able to spread their toes. And then they turn six and go to school and now they need

a heel and it needs to be stiff and they need arch support and suddenly all the shoes change. So that's where making sure that you're looking at brands that are totally flat, that are flexible, that have a good foot shape, all those good things is going to make a big difference for the kids. And kids don't need to transition into them. They are already used to it. It's when you don't wear them and you sit for years in your stiff pointy shoes and then you try to transition, then it's more challenging. So for kids, it's a lot easier and we can just keep them in natural footwear that's unrestricted and they usually have no problem. So I highly, highly recommend for kids who have healthy functioning feet, just keep, keep, keep on keeping on, you know, like don't introduce

anything. If you can help it, that is going to be with a raised heel or a stiff sole. You've got lots of shoes on the table here. What, um, you want to go through some of these or Angie, I'm sorry. I was just going to gonna say like it was very hard because i went into several shoe stores and i'm like i would feel nope that's gotta heal and i would like start tearing the sole off and i'm like it's still there or it would have that arch um little like raised piece like you had mentioned um but mark there was another company that was basically like a sock with like a hard piece on the floor what What was it called? Oh, yeah.

It started with an R. I don't remember. Robbies? I think so. Oh, yeah. Robbies. That's what it was. Yeah. Robbies is good for toddler age.

And then 10 Little Kids has these little booties that are good for kids. There's a lot of little handmade Yeti mocks. There's another great one. What else? Once you kind of know what to look for. Oh, Soft Star Shoes is a U.S. brand. They've got some really good baby shoes. Once they get a little bit older, then a brand like Splay shoes is really great for kids. I want to try those out. They look really nice. Yeah. And now they come in the full

range all the way up to adults. I saw on Amazon, there was just like tape that you put on the bottom of your feet. Oh, yes. You ever seen that before? Yeah. Does that have any value for some people? Have you ever tried it? No, I've never tried it. I mean, like a disposable shoe. I'm like, you know. It seemed like maybe a pain in the ass to get them on or something. I don't know. I guess.

What is this? I just looked at it. I can't find it. Damn it. It's like a sticker. It's like a sticker. I mean, it kind of makes sense. It's just something to protect the bottom of your foot, but it doesn't interfere with

movement at all. You know? Oh. I mean, just go barefoot. That's true. Bat Project family, how's it going? Now, we like to look good in the gym and out of the gym. That's why you always see Mark and I and Andrew is stepping up on the short, short game, wearing shorts from Viore and clothes from Viore.

And honestly, the number one compliment that I've seen that I've gotten and even mark's gotten is damn your butt looks good and that's because well the clothes we wear make our booties look delicious andrew how can they get it yeah you guys both have pretty big wagons uh you guys can head over to viore.com slash power project that's v-u-o-r-i.com slash power project to receive 20 off the most amazing apparel that looks so good inside and outside of the gym. It's going to make your ass look fat. And your ass will look fat. Links to them down in the description as well as the podcast show notes. God damn it.

That's a good one. That's a good one. It's going to make your ass look fat. Go over some of these shoes for us here we got a lot of shoes on the table what are we looking for I wanted to show kind of a spread these

make fit interesting yeah look they got little pants so if you just don't want to get dirt on the bottom of your foot and have it be all grimy, you could wear those. Yeah. Okay.

It could serve a purpose. Like if you're on a hot beach or something and you want to take all the fun out. The hot beach or like the hot ground. Yeah. That, I could see that. Yeah. But to me, it's like you can get shoes that are really, really thin and you can wear them a hundred times instead of putting on a sticker. Instead of a sole condom thing.

Don't use it. Foot condom? Sorry. Okay. Let's get to the shoes. My bad. All right. So I wanted to show kind of a spread because sometimes people think barefoot shoes are five fingers or they're something like this, which is, which, you know, I'm glad they exist, right?

Some people need these and they love them, but they're not conventionally attractive, right? We can just be honest about that. There's a brand I know that looks like this. I'm going to say it though. But yeah, it's just as tough. So I have plenty of readers who love these shoes. And they make them in a women's dress and a hiking boot. I actually wear the hiking boot because when I'm out hiking, I really don't care what people think.

And they feel great. And they're good shoes. And it's a good brand. It's a Softstar. So Softstar makes the great kid shoes, too. Okay. And they have some other adult shoes that are more conventional looking, but that are still meet barefoot requirements. So I have some of those too that are like some women's dress shoes that are nice.

This is an extreme option. I'm sorry. I typically do not care about aesthetics that much because me shit, I wear this all the time. But catch me dead before you put that shit on my feet brother I give it another I don't know two months and that's all you're gonna wear like when the winter comes no I'm positive no that's why we have vivos those still look good wet shoes I think will be next yeah this looks like a clown shoe in a lot of ways right it really puffs out at the side there that's like that's the thing

that you know people come to my instagram and they're like clown shoes period you know done like never gonna wear them and i'm like all right you know fine if you don't want to wear shoes like that fine that's not your only option um so this one is still pretty wide at the toes, but it's just slightly more mainstream. Or at least it's attempting to kind of combine some mainstream things. But it has a quite wide square toe box. And for people whose toes fill that whole thing up, I mean, where else are you going to find something like this? So this is Bilenka. This is a great

brand for extra wide feet and they make like a whole range of styles winter boots dress shoes um kids shoes and they're they're great they're out of europe unsurprising i guess europe's so many europe this seems like europe's just got it right because all these brands vivo i guess bilenka all these other brands are just based in Europe. This one's a U.S. brand, though. And then Lems is a U.S. brand. And this is kind of a good shoe for people who are reluctant to try barefoot shoes because it does have a thicker sole and a more mainstream look. But the sole is wider than it looks.

Yeah. It does this stitching on the top. It kind of helps disguise it a little bit. But these are pretty wide shoes. And they look cool. I mean, they look just like a normal boot. And they're going to provide a little bit more cushion for someone who is not ready for the thin sole. Could style that shit up for sure.

Big time. I would like for everybody that's listening, just for a day, just look at everybody's feet. Just go to your local Starbucks or go to a Costco or something like that and just examine people's feet. You will see so many people with their foot, and these are people that are still fit and stuff. This is not just from someone being heavy or someone being big, you'll see

their foot pushed out over the rubber of their shoe almost all the time. Like you will see it. You'll definitely see it more often than not. I'll predict that for sure. And a lot of people's shoes just aren't fitting them properly. So I know this is a rabbit hole that we're going down and we've been talking about it for a while, but I find it to be really, really important. Yeah, that is so true. And you see it a lot in summer because of sand, because, you know, people are wearing sandals and I am a

chronic shoe and foot and gate watcher. Like I go on vacation and I'm like, yes, get to see everybody's feet and criticize their shoes. No, I'm just kidding. I don't criticize people's shoes, but I'm just curious. I'm so curious how like I'm seeing people in flip flops and how they're compensating or I'm seeing people in like platform shoes and they're like, you know, shuffling because they're like worried they're going to fall. Even if they're not consciously, their brain knows. And so the brain is worried that they're going to fall

and seeing all these things and the toes poking out off of the sides of sandals. It's almost like we're in denial about how feet are actually shaped. And we see shoes that are foot shaped and we think they're ugly, but it's like, well, you know, your foot is actually shaped like that. Yeah. The wild thing is that it is so normal. Like even us, you know, the, the shoes you were wearing a while ago, um, I'd wear flip flops quite a bit just cause shoes have always been, just been super uncomfortable for me cause my feet are super wide, but you don't really think about it since everybody's just wearing shoes and you just, you don't think about the health of it. Everybody's just wearing shoes and you just, you don't think about the health of it. So.

And you think shoes are just uncomfortable, you know, like it's just, or it's, oh, my feet, my feet are so difficult. You know, I have such a hard time shopping and it's like, actually everybody is uncomfortable in their shoes. You know, everybody thinks, oh, my feet are so wide and it's not your feet. It's the fact that the shoes were not made with real feet in mind. They were made with some like imaginary Barbie and Ken feet. Yeah, they're Air Jordans, right? Like these shoes on the table, they just – they have a literal pocket of air that we were bought – we bought into like that this air is going to somehow – and the air is in the – think about this, how funny this is.

Where is the air? The heel. It's in the heel, which like what – You ain't jumping off of that shit. What sport are you playing where you're utilizing your heel mainly to jump? You would be utilizing the toes, right? It's enabling you to slam harder basically. Right.

Yikes. basically right yeah so this one here is one that has a faux heel so it kind of looks like it has a chunkier heel but it actually is flat and it also looks like it has an almond toe but it's more it's a disguise it's a little bit lengthened so the toe kind of tapers after the foot so that's like a little trick to kind of make them look more mainstream. I think these are pretty cool. I don't know. Maybe I'm just like whacked now, but I think those look pretty normal. What's that one called?

This is from Groundies. So another European brand. They really have the best manufacturing right now for barefoot shoes i think because you don't see stuff like this that are this finished in the u.s currently might change um but groundies has a ton of mainstream looking styles yeah these are groundies right here these look timberland yeah so i you can drop a lot of money if you're not careful um and they are in Germany, so, you know, you have to have them shipped here. But they do a great job if you want something like more of a conventional-looking trainer. They've got some really nice stuff.

These were the Shammas that we mentioned earlier. And I like this strapping because it kind of reminds me of, like, a Chaco's. Like, it's kind of attractive but also you can use it functionally for basically everything and they're really flexible so you know Chaco's weigh like a million pounds and they're really stiff and something like this is just going to be so much more freeing for your feet and chamois and earth runners they both have vibram soles which seem to last for a long time yeah vib, Vibram is good. A lot of brands use Vibram. These ones have Vibram.

Vibram's done a good job of marketing their technology, and you can get a whole bunch of different sole types, different thicknesses, different treads. So I love the brands that make their soles out of Vibram. On the sandal front, by the way, when people go and they look at sandals, you mentioned something as far as the millimeters of thickness. So what should people pay attention to when they make a purchase of whichever sandals they choose? So I am, you know, kind of a nerd about all this.

So I know down to the millimeter, like the thickness of everyone's shoes. And most people don't typically know how thick the shoes they use are. So it might be worth seeing, looking up, okay, I wear these, you know, I wear Vans. How thick actually are Vans? And then that can kind of let you know, maybe try a little bit thinner. But if you're wearing a shoe that's like 20 millimeters, two centimeters, then maybe don't get a 4 millimeter sandal for the first time. So this is 9.

So it's about a centimeter. And for some people this would be really thin. But it's a good, you know, it's a little bit of cushion. It's not crazy thin. And there are some that really are only 4. I think those are eight.

These are probably a little bit smaller. And then these. Those are. These are eight? No, the Earthrunners are eight. Earthrunners are eight? I think the Zero shoes are four or five. Yeah, these ones look super thin.

Yeah. Cool. Yep. So there's a pretty big spread. And Shama comes, they have some that are 15. So, you know, that's a good transition, Sandal. If you're nervous and you just want to kind of get started, you want to have no arch support, zero drop,

but you're not ready for the thin sole, then something like that is a great place to start. And they're still flexible. So you're still getting that motion in the foot. You're still mobilizing. And that actually is not just mobilizing. It's also strengthening when your foot moves. So the whole spread with the sandals.

Nice. I don't think people are going to find a shoe that fits better than a Vibram since it's just like you're – I mean I guess there might be some people that might have toes that maybe aren't shaped to be able to go into these that well. But like I found these to fit really, really well and it literally feels like you're barefoot to me. Those are the hiking ones? Yeah, I bought the hiking ones.

I actually run in those and they have a little bit stiffer of a bottom um but still you know moves around a lot um and uh absorbs the ground very well uh if i step on like rocks and all that kind of stuff it's not a huge problem i want to kind of point out like i don't think it's that important for people to like always feel the ground i think i think it's a goal it's something to work on so that you do strengthen the feet. So maybe you do it in the gym. Maybe you do it when you're dragging a sled in the gym. Maybe you do it if you have an opportunity to like run or walk on a beach or something like that. Or if you have an opportunity to go on a field, like there's times I think to train your feet. And I think there's times just for leisure too. So that's why I really like some of these shoes

that have a little bit more stuff underneath them. Cause I'm just thinking like I'm walking on very unnatural surfaces most of the time. And I do a lot of walking and more recently I've been doing a lot of running and I'm like, you know what? Fuck it. I don't want to feel, I don't want to deal with like feeling my running's hard enough as it is. I want to be able to concentrate on that and I don't want it to like bother my feet. So that's why I've been running a lot in the vibe rooms because I still feel my toes getting strengthened and I feel like all that other stuff is going on. But I chose to get like a little bit stronger of a bottom on there. Yeah, for sure. I think it's really all about your goals. You know,

some people, they don't want to really scale back their training. They want to continue on the activities they love and that's perfectly acceptable. In that case, a thicker sole would be totally warranted and that's going to allow you to make some better choices for your health without having to really change your routine and like, you know, do all this like shoe changing and, you know, like all that kind of stuff. Um, so totally, um, I personally feel like better when I'm always grounded, like always able to feel the ground. But again, you know, the whole time thing, like you, maybe in a year from now you'll have a different desired stack height. You know, maybe you'll be like, Oh gosh, I feel like I can't feel anything. I'm unstable a year from now, and you're going to want the next one down,

and that's going to be your sweet spot. So everybody's – where they're hanging out is going to change as you're progressing, and that's totally okay. I think people underestimate how long it takes. Yeah. And to just sort of like sit with it and like be okay with it and like be oriented in the right way. You know, you're running in Vibrams. Like that's a pretty big deal.

You know, you've come from some shoes that looked like this. Right. And so the message that, oh, you have to be a purist and you have to be in the super thinnest soles all the time is just, to me, missing the bigger picture of there's a huge problem with how we perceive feet and how we perceive shoes. and just being aware of it and thinking of like basic things like caring about our feet a little more, strengthening them, having foot shaped shoes. Those are going to make such a huge difference. And you don't have to kind of be hung up on the nuances, I guess. What about for some people that have particular jobs where they're required to wear like issued stuff, you know, like maybe military, police department, fire department. We have a guy in here who's super strong, guy that lifts like 750 or something like that. He's a

firefighter, a young guy, super strong. And he was just saying like how much his feet hurt. And I was shocked because I think he's like 22 years old. I'm like, why the hell do your feet hurt? But he was talking about the boots that he wears for firefighting. So are you aware of some ways that people can combat that scenario? Yeah, that's tough. That's a tough one, and that's something that I get asked a lot about. And there are some work boots. I do know some firefighters that use some of these boots that I've recommended that are zero drop and have a wider toe box. And they're able to get them approved by their department. There are even some more minimalist tactical boots that are zero drop and have a wider toe box and they're able to get them approved by their department there are even some more minimalist tactical boots that are military approved

which is great so um you know the brands yeah so the reebok nano tactical is one belleville mini mill is another and then is it the rocky sv, I think, is another one. So these are going to be really low drop. They're not totally zero drop, but they're like two millimeters, which I mean like biomechanically that's basically pretty near to zero drop. And then a wider foot shape and some flexibility. So that alone is going to make a huge difference because you're not like lugging around these huge, heavy, high-heeled boots. you're not like lugging around these huge, heavy, high-heeled boots. So those are some tactical boots and it's only certain branches of the military that will accept them. It's not all of them. So some, unfortunately at this point, are just don't have options. And there are people,

you know, people like me who are just sort of trying to advocate for these types of things with the military and trying to expand the options and kind of help make things more things available but it's slow like it's hard to change those types of things as far as the work boots so there are some safety boots Birkenstock which Birkenstock is a brand that I typically don't recommend because they're really stiff and they have really intense arch support but if some of the shoes, if you take out the insole, there's zero drop and they have a good foot shape. Like most Birkenstocks are pretty wide. So there's the safety boot. It's steel toe. It's Birkenstock QS 700. And if you take the

insole out, it is a pretty solid work boot. There an another one that I have not tried, um, but that I've had recommended that's called, uh, the plasma by DeWalt. So you can kind of find, um, work boots that are going to look more like this on the bottom and they might not be fully barefoot, but at least you're not getting this like inch and a half heel on a work boot, which is just not really necessary. Yeah. So there are some options, but it's definitely a hard thing, especially if they're getting issued shoes and they just really don't have any control. In that case, before and after routine, you know, exercising your toes, some toe spreaders, doing some barefoot walking, all of that kind of stuff before and after you have to wear those shoes. That's going to help

counteract a little bit. But, you know, we really just kind of need to keep challenging the market and getting better shoes made for people like that. What does zero drop mean? Just so people understand. I don't know if they know what that means. does zero drop mean? Just so people understand, I don't know if they know what that means. So zero drop means basically totally flat from heel to toe. So you can have a shoe that's five millimeters thick or 50 millimeters thick, but it's zero drop if it's 50 millimeters thick under the toe and under the heel. Basically you're on a level plane and your heel is not higher than the ball of your foot. And then why don't we want the heel to be up, elevated?

Well, because it's neutral. It's natural. If you're always elevated, then it's like standing on a hill all the time. So it's going to push your weight forward a little bit. It's going to put excess pressure on the front of your feet. And it kind of like deactivates your glutes. It can have a lot of effect. If it's pushing you forward, it can also pinch your low back

because you're kind of having to lean back over, doing some spine compensations. So the lower the heel, definitely the better, but it can have kind of really a whole body effect when you wear heeled shoes. And people don't realize they're wearing heeled shoes. That's the thing is that like these. Right. You know, someone's wearing sneakers and they're not thinking, oh, I'm wearing high heels. You know, they're thinking I'm wearing flat shoes because it's flat on the bottom.

But on the inside, you know, the heel is raised sometimes a lot. Yeah. Yeah, and it can shorten like your calves and your Achilles, you know, because they're not lengthened to the proper thing. And I think some people, especially guys, I think they just wear it just because it makes them look taller. And the design of the shoe kind of looks kind of cool, you know, having that. As you were pointing out, the other shoes are able to do something similar what about for uh women that uh maybe have to get dressed up for work or scenarios like that like is there any shoes that uh you feel that fit that mold yeah so there are professional shoes for both men's and women's styles and i brought a couple women's one I decided not to bring a men's dress shoe just because my husband has humongous feet and it took up half my suitcase.

But so this is like a similar style to a popular women's sandal. And it's, you know, you can see it's totally flat and flexible and it's got like a pretty wide shape. Which brand is that? This is Croupon. So once again, another European brand. But they make really beautiful shoes. And these are shape and flats. And I actually imported these to the U.S. because I liked them so much.

This is a European brand, but you can get them through my website because I wear these. These are my favorite dress shoes for women. And then, like, this boot is also in my shop there's a kind of a lot of women's options that have come up over the years for men a really great brand for men who need a really professional looking shoe that does not look like this at all but is still zero drop is carrots it's spelled c-a-r-e-t-s and whenever i share a picture of them like my husband wore them to my sister's wedding earlier this year um are you looking at them people are like those aren't barefoot and i'm like you know what they're flat

and they have a wide toe box and so we're just we're gonna go with it because they look like that. So they have a faux heel and it's kind of like this technology where it has an elongated toe. Those look great. Yeah, they look really nice. I have family members who, like a lawyer who has to dress up really nice and he wears those. And for weddings, black tie, they look really great. They're a little bit expensive. So there are some other options that are cheaper, like Birchberry Apparel has some that are,

I think they're like maybe even less than $100, maybe around $100 for a dress shoe. So there are options out there. Sometimes people are disappointed by the way they look, you know, like we've talked about. But if you keep searching, a lot of times you'll find something that kind of works for your lifestyle and meets your style preferences. I dig these quite a bit. These are field grounds. And when you go on their website, they have a lot of different options, and these are just kind of – I kind of dig having something that I can just slide on sometimes.

Sometimes the Vibrams take a while, so there's this guy here. Yeah, and those look pretty normal. They look like what everyone was wearing when I was in high school. They're pretty mainstream looking, and people aren't going to be like, oh, your shoes are so weird when you're wearing something like that. So there are things I feel like there's enough options that at least like one thing in your closet, something that you like, or even if it's not for going out, if you want to maintain, you know, you want to keep your going out shoes, but your walking shoes or your errand shoes. going out shoes but your walking shoes or your errand shoes you know there's a lot of options that people can find one thing that that they like and that they're happy with an interesting shoe that's like dominated the medical space or crocs you see a lot of nurses and doctors wearing them um even i have a few that i just like wear in the sauna and stuff but like as i walk in my

crocs now because they're so cushiony it's like it i have to be very aware of where i'm putting my weight because it wants you it's so soft and so nice that it wants you to put your weight in your heels not your heels in your arch when you walk right so it's like it if you wear those so often it can really uh mess that up so like for for people within that field because they want something comfortable on the bottom of their feet. Yeah. What would you suggest? Something like Lems, like these ones that are a little bit more cushioned.

They have sneakers as well. And there's a sneaker called the Primal 2, which is a really popular one for nurses because it's washable. And it's a little bit thicker if you're on your feet all day. And it looks just like a sneaker, really looks pretty pretty normal yeah so that's a popular one for people like that um there's a brand called osh which is a they have i think primarily women's sizes right now but they've got a really really thick cushion sole if you're on your feet all day. So there's some intermediary options that kind of bridge the gap. And Altra, of course, is a great one for that. Altra has three different widths in terms of their shoes. You can get like a regular fit.

You can get their original fit, which is wider than a regular shoe. And then they have one that's even wider than that for people to have a wider foot than that. Yeah. Do you use the original or super wide? This one's just an original. Okay. And it fits all right? Yeah, it fits great.

Okay. Throw it on. Yeah, I was going to say, like, if I have to buy some ultras. I mean, that one's a 12. I have no socks on. That's okay. Just raw dogging it. Get your fat little feet in there and see my.

I'll tear your shoes. It's not my fault. So you guys swap shoes then? What do you, and underwear. What do you think of, you know, some regular style shoes?

Like, are there, are there regular shoes out there that, that might fit some of this like i have a nike this is a more modern uh metcon and uh you can just assess it right here i didn't have an opportunity to show it to you earlier or anything but maybe just take a look at that and like i don't know what are some of your thoughts on that does that have some decent qualities to it or is that a piece of shit that used to be my go-to lifting shoe. So, I mean, first... Did that fit you, by the way?

Oh, yeah. I'd give it 12 and a half, though. The Metcon's not bad. I'm familiar with this shoe. And I mean, like, look at this flexibility. Like, not bad. But, I mean, this is pretty... Crossfitters are short, though, you know, so they're trying to... Trying to make those guys a little taller.

But if you took this out, let's say you took your insole out of the Ultras and you put it in here... Now we're dealing with guys a little taller. But if you took this out, let's say you took your insole out of the ultras and you put it in here. Now we're dealing with something a little better. I mean, there's a little bit of a heel lift, right, built into the actual shoe itself. But to me, this is not terrible. And also this is maybe not so stretchy. But, you know, it's not so stiff. So your foot could kind of expand over it

a little bit. So I definitely think that there are compromise options out there. And like, so, you know, you go to the store and you do what I just did. You look at the insole, you look at the toe box, you mash it up and then, you know, decide from there. This is a Reebok shoe. That's of meant more for, like, lifting. What do you think of this one? So this toe box looks better to me than that one. I don't know if you can see that. The big toe is a little bit straighter.

Yeah. So I look for that because the big toe really has a big role in all of our movements and if you if it's kind of trapped in there you're going to pronate more there's just a lot of stuff going on if you can't use your big toe so I do like that the big toe is wider also flexible but you can see a bit of a heel let's check out the insole oh look, look at that. The insole is flat. And you know, have you done the insole test? Yeah, just putting your foot on the insole. Yeah. So yeah, explain that for us. If you pull the insole out of your shoe and just stand on it and put your weight on your foot, then you can tell immediately if your toes are spilling off the side.

And an insole does fit inside the shoe. So your foot could be pretty close up and it still could be a good fit. But if you've got toes hanging off, then that means that inside the shoe, your toes are squished, basically. So this one actually is not horrible. I mean, you compare this one. That Nike thing is like indestructible. You can't even bend it.

To that, yeah. I mean, so you've got a little bit of toe flexion, but like nothing's happening here. And also, you're not going to be able to do anything with any lateral movement with your ankle or your foot. You heal. Yeah, and if you do, you're done. Because like on this Nike. Oh, yeah. You're going to roll your ankle or your foot, you heal. Yeah. And if you do, you're done. Because like on this Nike. Oh, yeah. You're going to roll your ankle really bad.

That's going to hurt. So actually, I'm surprised this is not a terrible one. Well, surprise, surprise. I created that one with Reebok a couple of years ago. Oh, nice. Yeah. So you were already, you know, keyed in without even realizing it. I actually personally think I created all these shoes.

I actually do. Me and Jesse Burdick years ago through Kelly Sturette went to Reebok and asked them to make wider shoes that actually fit people the right way. And I think that this entire space I think is partially created off of this. Well, good job. Good for you. I believe that. Because then CrossFit also used that for their reebok shoes and then nike took over the crossfit space and made this shoe so there you

have it well is reebok still making those they do not i don't think so they they bring them back every once in a while but not that often so you need to use your influence they do sell them every time every time yeah get on them again yeah yeah i gotta yell on them again it's funny watching you uh like squish the the shoes it would just make like high school me cringe so bad because back then we used to like stuff our shoes to keep the yeah to keep the creases from happening but uh one shoe that i see is like oh these are flat these are good is like vans and like chucks like are those worth a damn or should they still be avoided? So Vans, Chucks, I mean, I see those a lot

and I just look at them and I think they look like shanks. Like they are pointy. They're really pointy and narrow. And I know it's a whole thing, like a whole vibe, but yeah, they are flat. Mostly, if you pull up the insole vans and chucks

do have a heel lift they're not totally flat um but yeah i'm just not a fan of the squish toes so this is this is what i wore today um and they are like a vans similar to vans this is bohempia brand and they even come in an extra wide so this is regular width but it's still way wider than vans and um i think they look cool those do look cool yeah yeah my my daughter got some from vivo um they're they're kind of like similar they're just slip-ons and they look really nice they don't look anything different but what i love like every single shoe that you're bringing up is a different brand and when you start diving into this stuff you're just like oh there's like four brands it's like every time you say something it's a new brand it's freaking awesome i have a

database and it's got about over 200 brands in it shit yeah damn oh yeah chucks chucks are a wild shoe though because i remember when i was like i was in high school and everyone was wearing chucks i'm like these look cool i tried i bought some chucks i had to get them a full size bigger so my foot was like at the time my foot was 12 that's by a 13 and my shit was still too wide for chucks so it's just those shoes those and vans too like remember we're doing the podcast in the old studio and i'm like yeah i wear vans they're the most uncomfortable shoe ever i don't understand why they're so popular and And I would get clowned on. They're just like, oh, you just got to break them in.

I'm like, these are so fucking uncomfortable. You just got to break them in. What a great thought, huh? So this brand makes a low top lace up shoe with the rubber toe cap that looks like a Converse. What's that one called again? Bohempia. Bohempia. Yep.

And again, most, this is my opinion, at least I've been in this space for a while. So, you know, I recognize that I'm way more accepting of these types of shoes now than a lot of people when they first see them. But people don't look at your shoes the way that you're looking at them. They're not looking at them straight down. They're seeing them from the side and they look mostly the same as everybody else's most of the time. Unless you're wearing something like this, then yes, you know, people might notice. But I think a lot of the time people don't notice that my shoes are different or they think, oh, you are that person who wears the weird shoes, but you're not wearing them right now. And it's like, actually, I'm wearing them all the time.

So Bohempia makes some more traditional shoes that are not barefoot. So that's not a barefoot one. So if you go, and Bohempia USA is actually not the right website. Oh, my bad. Well, hopefully those are similar. Wait, Bohempia USA, is this the same brand or is it just a different, hopefully those are similar. Wait, Bohempia USA. Is this the same brand or is it just a different brand in the U.S. named Bohempia? That is a U.S. franchise that is unfortunately closing.

Okay. We'll avoid them. So you can look at the pictures, but you won't be able to buy anything. But those were an example. Got it. Those ones look like Keds to me, the ones that we had pulled up. My daughter plays volleyball. Do you have any suggestions for volleyball shoes?

You ever get that question before? Surprisingly, volleyball is not one I get asked very often. I do get asked a lot about pickleball and tennis. I don't know if it's the same type. What about even like basketball? It's the same type. What about even like basketball? So Zero Shoes makes a sneaker called the 360, which is a kind of a general court sneaker that I think is probably one of the best options available. What's it called?

It's the 360. From Zero? Mm-hmm. Let's see what we got. Yeah, it came out last fall, and I've had a few people test it for me in various sports, CrossFit, powerlifting, tennis. These are very zero-looking. What about ballet slippers? You get in all these shoes. Yeah, ballet slippers.

So ballet slippers are already minimal in the sense that they're flat and flexible. But the toe box is not always desirable on the ballet slippers, but there aren't any that I'm aware of that are wide toe box. Hey, what's the other color? It doesn't really matter what color. It's not going gonna fucking matter hold on let me see it's just right there it's right there the blue is better better actually yeah i was wrong but i'm better you know it reminds me like you know oh man kids are tough but like you know

there's a trend there is a trend when kids would like see something on like an old person's feet or just like that. What are the. And my. That's where your brain went. But you know what? We go for function over looks. Right.

Right. So. So then you'll be wearing these next time I see you, right? Hell no. I think so. Hell no. These are sick. I like these.

These are pretty nice. These are really nice. Yeah. But I just, I don't understand These are sick. I like these. Those are pretty nice. These are really nice. But I just, I don't understand like the sizing. Like I guess I'd have to look at my view as and figure out what. So you were saying something about UK sizing, how it's like better than the United States. So I prefer EU sizing because it's unisex and it's consistent. So it's like you just, you know your size and you always know your size. You know, like there's no like, oh, the women's are one and a half sizes different from the men's.

And the kids are also their whole entire different, you know, youth. It's like it's crazy. The U.S. sizing is really confusing. EU is just one numbered system in a row from babies all the way up to the biggest men's size. Numerical in order. Seems to make sense to me. Yeah, standard versus metric. We always fuck things up here in America.

I emailed you some shoes, Andrew. Uh-oh. Yep. How did they fit in a whole email? That's crazy. I know. We're in the future. Oh, you got a couple.

Come on, it's loading. While that's loading, I want to... Oh, my gosh. That's the Iron Sheik. loading, I want to... Oh my gosh. That's the Iron Sheik. Look at those shoes from back in the day. The curly boots. Oh my gosh. That might cause some problems with your toes.

Tapered footwear has been around. There was a study that came out recently about medieval skeletons from medieval times having bunions. Oh wow. From the tapered footwear that they were wearing. So it's been a fashion thing for a long time. And that's a ninja thing. Ninja shoes. I don't know just why we were talking

I was thinking about that because you were mentioning the big toe and I was like why does the ninja thing always have the big toe out like that? It's interesting. Yeah those are called tabby shoes and supposedly I like the five finger a little better because I still think the outer toes are important. But having that big toe out, I mean, the big toe is the thing that we squish, right? So get that out and then it can start playing a role.

Is there any tricks to get these shoes on? Because sometimes it's kind of hard. I have a hell of a time with this toe for some reason. It won't go in there. Same. It like keeps going in here or like yeah and i'm trying to you got any advice like has anybody come to you and said hey i got an easier way no just gotta deal with it just gotta do it you gotta just be barefoot and be a savage no i mine mine take me a while to get on too yeah like gotta try once you break them in it's not as bad though yeah no it's easier and with the vib. Once you break them in, it's not as bad though.

Yeah. No, I agree. It's easier. And with the Vibrams, like you were saying, Vibrams are pretty interesting because the sizing, it's like 12 to 12 and a half and then 11 and a half to 12, right? So if any of you guys are interested in Vibrams, they have pretty good return policy in case you get it and you can get a size smaller. But Mark, you said you want a full size smaller and it still fits okay right oh it fits great yeah it's perfect now i went half size down first or just like one one size on the chart and then i had to go down another size so i went down two sizes in their like uh their eu uh sizing yeah it was actually graham who recommended to me to do that and so i did the same thing um and i agree that they felt way too small at first, but then they really loosened up.

Yeah, they do. They do stretch. They kind of have like a mesh on the outside type thing. Wait, so you said they felt way too small at first and then they opened up? Yeah. But I don't recommend doing that with every shoe. So Vibrams are kind of unique because they're basically gloves for your feet. Yeah.

So they can feel snug and you're still going to have mobility. But if you're wearing a shoe like this and it's too short and your toes are like this inside, that's no bueno. Andrew, you have a pair of these, right? Yeah. So a normal, bad, well, thin, uncomfortable shoes. I was like an 11. When I got Vivos, I had went down to a 10. And so I, we, me and Nsema were communicating about what size I should get for Vibrams. And somehow I ended up at a nine and it was just way too, it was like painful for me. Like my big toe felt like it just was constantly like curled. Like I

couldn't get it to go. And Nsema was like, just like try to like you know not work it in but just like it will eventually over time become more pliable but I had to give up I couldn't quite do it so I'm hoping to just return those and get a bigger size yeah that sounds sounds like it might have been just too small yeah but for um real quick because I just remembered my people will sometimes rock these shoes where the cowboy boot will just curl up. That's sick. The longer the toe, the more gangster you are. You know what I find interesting?

I found for myself personally that dress shoes and boots tend to fit me better. Have you had that experience too? No, not dress shoes. I don't fuck with dress shoes anymore. What about boots? Boots? I have some boots that are pretty cool. And even cowboy boots. I've worn cowboy boots before and they fit way better than a regular sneaker. I haven't traveled down that path. It's weird because the shape of it, but the shape of it is after your toes. Your toes aren't getting squished.

Interesting. Did yours have a little knife at the end of it too? Of course. How about the spinny thing? What's that spinny thing called? Oh yeah, spurs. Remember Luggs had a spinner on them? Luggs shoes? Yeah, when spinners on rims were popular.

Oh yeah. every time you would step the the fucking rim behind the shoe would spin look at the shack shoe i had it when i was in uh which one there's so few oh yeah just shoes they look like space boots i remember i had it in like the fifth or fourth grade it looks like a space boot what about yeah remember a reebok pump like you pump up the tongue of the shoe? Yes, I remember those. It's so weird. Yeah.

There's so many Shaq shoes. I was asking you off air if you're aware of shoes that someone can find that maybe is a bigger person, a heavier person. Like how big do some of these shoes go? And then you were telling me about the height of the shoe and what that's called. Are you aware that some of these shoes maybe come in just gigantic sizes? Because when I made that shoe with Reebok, people were like, oh, man, you don't have 17s. I was like, who the hell wears a 17?

I was like, that's crazy. So the largest size out-of-the-box size that I know of is a 17, a barefoot shoe. I shouldn't take this about anybody. Is it this brand or is it magical shoes it's either to devo or magical shoe i think it might be magical shoes and lems also goes up to a 16 and vivo barefoot might too so there are a few that are just out of the box good and really big sizes but there are quite a few custom options, which scares people, but it's not as scary as it needs to be because it can, it can actually cost just about as much.

Oh, really? Yeah. What are those brands? So one is Deliberate Life Designs. They make sandals only, but they do custom sandals so they can custom to your foot shape and also to your length. So if you have a really big foot, there are more. I have a list of them and it's escaping me more options at the moment, but there are several brands that will do closed-toed shoes as well, even boots. And I have a number of custom shoes just because I'm a shoe snob and I want them to fit perfectly. And they don't cost that much more. So it's kind of a surprising thing that people are really intimidated by. But if you just have a really hard time finding shoes that fit because you have some unique situation, like two different sized feet, then I highly recommend doing that.

So that is custom barefoot shoe brands, which maybe Andrew can pull. All this stuff would be on your website too, right? Yeah. And then the height of the shoe, you were telling me that's the volume of the shoe, right? Correct. Yeah. So that can make a huge difference in fit. So one of the things that I do in my reviews is I define shoes by their shape and their width and their volume. So it can help. Oh, yeah, that's deliberate life designs.

If you search custom barefoot shoe brands, the list of them will come up. So volume is basically the height. It's like vertical height. So we're always talking about width, but the height of your foot will make a difference too. So I have a foot. My foot's really shallow, like low to the ground. So that's low volume. If you have a high volume foot, a shoe that fits me snug is going to not, you're not going to be able to get your foot in there. And by, you know, on the opposite end, if I wear a high volume shoe, it's going to be huge on me.

So that is separate from width. So there's tons of different brands. So people just have to pay a little bit extra if they need to get themselves a custom shoe, right? It is sometimes extra. Not always. Not always. Yeah. That's cool.

I did not know that's an option. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we were talking recently. There's this, have you heard of the brand that makes custom cleats? Now they do get a bit expensive. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we weren't talking recently. There's this, uh, have you heard of the brand that makes custom cleats? Now they do get a bit expensive. Code footwear. Code footwear. Yeah. They make custom shoes or custom cleats for athletes based off of their feet. A little bit pricier, but for those types of shoes, if you're an athlete with

wide ass feet, like I was need cleats, it's worth it. For professionals, for sure. Oh, yeah. Those are quite expensive. I'm hoping that as things grow that prices will come down. One that I thought of is Fuse, F-Y-O-U-S. So they are in the U.K., but they – I know, of course. Another one, yeah. But they make trainers, and you can customize the thickness, the sole thickness. And if you want a heel, a zero drop, or if you need like sometimes people need a heel lift for whatever reason, if you need something there, then you can get that.

And they're fully custom. They're like mesh sneakers, you know, for athletic use. So great option. I think they're like 100 euros or 100 pounds. 149. Okay. So, you know, I mean, that's not cheap. I mean, for a custom builder.

How long do you think it's going to be before Nike starts to make shoes in this space? Well, they tried the Nike Free. Yeah, that was a pretty long time ago, right? And they pulled back on it. Tried the Nike Free. Yeah, that was a pretty long time ago, right? And they pulled back on it. So it's a little bit interesting because Zero, for example, Vivo Barefoot Lens, they're not struggling.

People like these types of shoes. But the big brands have pulled back on their minimalist lines. And I don't know exactly why because I believe that they were successful. People like them. I think it might be more like a mental thing where they say you need this so then they can't compete with their own ideology by offering a minimalist shoe. They kind of have to just go with it. They sell you on technology. When you go on the website for Nike and you look at their shoes and you start to see the wording that's involved in like their golf shoes or just any of the shoes on the site,

it will say this is made with the MDX 40. It's like all made up, you know, but you're sitting there reading it. You're like, this sounds fucking awesome. This is going to make me way faster. Yeah. This is going to make me way faster. This is going to help me jump higher. And it's usually an add-on or something more advanced than the previous year's shoe. And so they kind of have you bought into this like cyclical thing. And so I think for them, they're probably like, it doesn't make any sense if we take all that stuff away and then say, here's a shoe that does nothing for you but allows your foot to move around the way that it's supposed to, which is exactly what we need.

Yeah, a little cognitive dissonance there. They can't offer minimalist shoes if they're telling you you need all this other stuff. But yeah, so I'm intrigued but I don't really know what to expect. I'm intrigued, but I don't really know what to expect. Sometimes I think I'm worried that, you know, some giant brand is going to come and swoop in and just like take over everything and squash all the small businesses. But it doesn't it's not happening. I'm not seeing it. It's it has been.

Like the last two years, like just been going nuts with all these shoes, right? Yeah. Yeah. Two, three years. And it's like everything that's mainstream just wants to ignore it. You know, like there's like when Born to Run came out, there was all kinds of news outlet coverage, you know, media coverage, like celebrity coverage. And you get some of that, you know, you guys are talking about it. Joe Rogan talks about it. But for some reason, it's sort of staying in this like more person to person, you know, like, oh, you got to try this or like, oh, my feet hurt.

So I'm going to do some Googling. And it's not being picked up in a big way. I don't fully understand. I don't fully understand. I mean maybe it's just everybody was scared off by the whole Born to Run crash and boom that they don't want to mess with this. But it's just – it's been interesting to see how it's grown so much. But it is very grassroots. I think Born to Run and I think maybe even the Vibrams.

I think Vibram like like didn't it get sued? Like a lot of people had their – I don't know. Their feet got hurt or something. I don't know what the deal is. So the lawsuit was for false advertising because they said that wearing these shoes will strengthen your feet. And the lawsuit was saying they won't. They settled out of court. So they didn't lose. And at the time, there was like really minimal – there was some research about minimal shoes, like not using arch support and having that strength in your feet. But nothing like today.

There's a lot more research today on that. So it was like maybe they would have won the lawsuit if they had pursued it. Maybe not. It's hard to say. But it was – the lawsuit was not about injuries. Yeah. And the thing is, too, when it comes to all of this, like a big brand getting involved in it, the amount of like most people need some time to be able to transition into a totally zero drop shoe.

Like it took us going back and forth. It took you multiple years to get used to it. So you think about like if, number one, there's no incentive because it's like it's telling you you actually need less for your foot to be healthier. You don't need more. But secondly, it's not necessarily comfortable if you're coming from a place of wearing Nikes or really padded shoes. You put on a minimalist shoe, you're like, ow. This isn't comfortable at all. Most shoes are marketed as far as far as oh this is nice and comfortable

and your feet are going to feel so you know but these my feet feel great in them now but it's not like that it's hard and the surface is you feel everything you know yeah I think you have a good point there that maybe it's because it takes education

and nuance and it's hard for one thing it's hard it takes education and nuance. And for one thing, it's hard to get people to sit and accept that. Like they want to just buy the shoes and then the shoe is the solution and done. So I think you might be on to something there. And that's one thing that's really interesting that I really enjoy about this space now is that a lot of the research that's being done, a lot of the proponents of it, they are very nuanced. They're really into selling the whole package and not just a shoe. And to me, that's so important because that's sustainable.

It's not a quick fix. It's a long-term thing. But you have to be invested, I guess. And that's the hard part is that it's hard to – we're told to buy into everything, right? You know, it's like one more thing to buy into, one more thing to put on your to-do list. And that's hard. You know, I get that. So I guess there's a balance there where you need to make sure you do due diligence, you know, like knowing that it could be a little bit uncomfortable.

But also recognizing that there's some like really low hanging fruit. There's some like really low entry points where you can improve your life with just some really small things. Like maybe one pair of shoes. You know, one pair of shoes wears out. You need to replace it. Choose something that doesn't squish your toes. Yeah. You know, one step at a time. Or while you're watching TV, you're doing some exercises.

Like really basic stuff that doesn't require huge buy-in. And then you start to see results. And you maybe are ready to kind of take the next step and kind of go down that road, go down that route. And, you know, it is crazy how big of a change the little habits make because, number one, most of the reps that you're going to get in is through the habit of walking. You can get yourself taking thousands of steps a day,

but now the thousands of steps you're taking are different types of steps than what they were when you were wearing those, right? You will notice some pain, but also some change fairly quickly. But like, yeah, if you're sitting down gloving your foot or gloving your wife's foot or gloving your husband's foot, whatever, it'll feel uncomfortable, but then it might lead to some good shit. And then also something like jump roping, like you getting those, I love jump roping because you're getting these multiple reps of hopping on your feet and I jump roping those and it's just like my feet have been getting bigger for the past few months, right? We haven't been doing this for that long, but our feet are making some pretty rapid

change. So it's an adaptation, but it's are making some pretty rapid change. So it, it's, it's, it's an adaptation, but it's something that if you can implement different things into your life, it can be really easy. And the nice thing about the shoes, like you mentioned, you're taking thousands of steps a day. So it is passive a little bit, you know, there is some passive strengthening that you're going to get just from being in the shoes. Because as long as you're moving, I mean, of course, if you sit all day on the couch or at your desk, wearing minimalist shoes while you're doing that isn't really going to make a difference for you. But if you're walking in them, then, yeah, studies have shown that you will gain some muscle mass in your feet.

And that is pretty cool. But it's often not, you know, the only thing people need. A lot of times people need a little extra. Yeah. What, um, if it just kind of go back around into like, what was the first, uh, step or two that you made, uh, to get yourself out of pain for somebody that's listening right now that just wants to, they're just tired of having their feet hurt and they'll they're hopefully they're buying into what we're saying here today. I definitely would suggest, I mentioned earlier, in a non-painful, non-threatening way being barefoot on texture, finding some way to do that, whether it's sand or, you know, one of those mats that we pulled up,

something like that to get the nerves going. Because pain is, you know, so much of what we can do with our bodies is what our nervous system allows us to do. And pain is neurological. So feeding those nerves, stimulating them, for me that was huge. Also finding a non-painful way to move because everything hurts more if you're sedentary. So we're thinking feet, but I'm thinking like going on a walk every morning, something so that you are still moving your body. And if you can't walk because it's painful, something, you know, maybe Pilates because it's on your back or yoga or something like that.

So keep moving for blood flow and then stimulate the nerves. Basic foot pain, like must-haves. And then beyond that would be beginning the exercises, the toe spreaders, the toe yoga, and then moving those feet in again in a non-painful way as much as you can to the point of fatigue. And then just build up from there. On your website, do you have like programs for the feet or do you sell the toe spacers and things like that as well? I do sell the toe spreaders. I believe in as well? I do sell the toe spreaders. I believe in them, but I don't think they're essential. So I think they're a nice tool. Again, a passive way to sort of add stretching and strengthening to your toes when you're not doing anything, which I think is great.

But you can also do it with your hands or just exercising your toes. or just exercising your toes. I have some exercises, and I have recommended experts and reads and sort of things to dig into if you want to keep going. I don't have a program. I'm not a movement specialist, so I share what worked for me and what I like, and then I refer out to experts who might have more programs for you. So you can find all of that if you want to get started on more of a kind of an intentional journey of foot rehab. But definitely basic stuff is so accessible.

There's so many things that you don't have to have equipment for. You don't have to have any sort of baseline strength. You know, you really can kind of start from ground zero and start doing some of this stuff. And I think that should be really like kind of that should be pushed a lot because you don't need a foot program. Some people may need a foot program, but like if you can get yourself walking more, if you can get yourself doing a lot of the things that we mentioned during this episode, things will gradually progress. But the thing is, you know, when people think of a program, like even a training program, they're like, I'm going to get here to here in 12 weeks. This is something that's going to take months and years. Like you've been on this rabbit hole for like six years now and seeing what you're doing now, you're, you've been running barefoot for a

year and a half, right? Like that shit's wild to me. And then even the way your feet look from where they were to where they are now, that took years. So this is a thing that, again, all the steps you're going to be taking in different types of shoes, more standing, more walking, more movement, it'll make a difference over years. Just don't expect it to be fast. Absolutely. And that's kind of the way a lot of things are, you know, like you change your, you stop eating sugar, you start eating more whole foods, you know, something like that. It's not like, oh, you wake up the next day and miraculously you're healed. It's that you change like your environment and you change your stimulus and then years down the road, you're like, oh my gosh, my feet are not the same. And that's,

that's both the best part of it and the worst part of it. You know, the best part is that it's free, it's accessible, it's relatively easy to get started, but you are in it for the long haul. It's really kind of a life thing, which makes sense. Our feet are the foundation of our bodies. They absorb all of our weight, you know, when wherever we're walking, standing, and running. One point of contact with the ground, we kind of want them to last our whole lives, right? So, like, just thinking about them a little bit more can come back your whole life, really.

And a cool other way to think about it, if you're like, oh, this is going to take too long, blah, blah, is, like, if you've spent 20-plus years doing this one way and wearing one type of shoe, I think you could be okay with thinking about what could happen in five or six years. I'm using the five or six years because of what happened with you. You could barely walk barefoot on the ground six years ago and now you're fucking running on concrete and you've been doing that for the last year and a half. So I'm okay with that.

Right. And a lot of people have results faster. You know, I'm kind of a unique case. I'm definitely not a, you know, a standalone case, but a lot of people who are not coming from injury, they start seeing benefits really fast. Yeah. Do you have a YouTube channel as well? I do have a YouTube channel. It's reviews mainly, shoes, Anya's Reviews, there too. And you got your Instagram and what other forms of social media you got so people can find all your awesome stuff? Instagram and Facebook. And then if you're on Pinterest, I do a lot of stuff on Pinterest.

Otherwise, it's the website. So anyasreviews.com. And then if you want to take the quiz to find out, you know, we talked about volume and width, those types of things. If you want to figure out what kind of shoes are good matches for your foot type or your foot size, that's at BarefootShoeFinder.com. And then who else should people maybe look into and follow for foot stuff? So Katie Bowman, I mentioned her book, Whole Body Barefoot earlier. She is an excellent place for people to start foot exercises. The Healthy Feet Alliance also has a good directory for more resources and a good social media follow for content surrounding foot exercises and that sort of thing.

I also love Gate Happens. Another great place. Yeah, I think those ones are my favorite. And the Barefoot Sprinter. Oh yeah, Graham Tuttle, Barefoot Sprinter. Don't forget about him. Andrew, take us out of here, buddy. Sure thing. Thank you everybody for checking out today's

episode. Please let us know what you guys thought about today's conversation. Let us know what shoes you were most interested in. It'd be cool to hear what you guys have to say. And subscribe if you guys are not subscribed and make sure you guys slap that like button before you head out. Please follow the podcast at MB Power Project on Instagram, TikTok and Twitter. My Instagram, TikTok and Twitter is at I am Andrew ZNCMO. Where are you at? Don't forget, guys. We probably mentioned it at the beginning of the episode. But for some of the brands that we mentioned, probably Vibrance, Earthrunner, Shamas, and Vivo, we're going to have a code for you. So if you do end up wanting to get any of those shoes, there is a code there. But for any, like, Lems and all of that, if you guys are interested in all those shoes, make sure to go to Anya's website because I think you do have stuff for people. You have cool deals and shit, so check that out. But don't forget Discord because special things go on with the people

in there. 1,700 people. Good discussion. And see me on Instagram and YouTube. And see me on TikTok and Twitter. Mark. I'm at Mark Smiley Bell. Strength is never weakness. Weakness is never strength. Catch you guys later. Bye.