Mark Bell's Power Project - Bart Kay - Calories in Calories out DOES NOT WORK? || MBPP Ep. 840

Episode Date: November 20, 2022

In this Podcast Episode, Bark Kay, Mark Bell, Nsima Inyang, and Andrew Zaragoza talk about Bart's opinion that counting calories does NOT work for weight loss. He believes it is a flawed style of dieting and recommends eating to satiation as a better alternative. Follow Bart on IG: https://www.instagram.com/bart_kay_nutrition/ New Power Project Website: https://powerproject.live Join The Power Project Discord: https://discord.gg/yYzthQX5qN Subscribe to the new Power Project Clips Channel: https://youtube.com/channel/UC5Df31rlDXm0EJAcKsq1SUw Special perks for our listeners below! ➢https://hostagetape.com/powerproject Free shipping and free bedside tin! ➢https://www.naboso.com/ Code POWERPROJECT for 15% off! ➢https://thecoldplunge.com/ Code POWERPROJECT to save $150!! ➢Enlarging Pumps (This really works): https://bit.ly/powerproject1 Pumps explained: https://youtu.be/qPG9JXjlhpM ➢https://www.vivobarefoot.com/us/powerproject Code: POWERVIVO20 for 20% off Vivo Barefoot shoes! ➢https://markbellslingshot.com/ Code POWERPROJECT10 for 10% off site wide including Within You supplements! ➢https://mindbullet.com/ Code POWERPROJECT for 20% off! ➢https://eatlegendary.com Use Code POWERPROJECT for 20% off! ➢https://bubsnaturals.com Use code POWERPROJECT for 20% of your next order! ➢https://vuoriclothing.com/powerproject to automatically save 20% off your first order at Vuori! ➢https://www.eightsleep.com/powerproject to automatically save $150 off the Pod Pro at 8 Sleep! ➢https://marekhealth.com Use code POWERPROJECT10 for 10% off ALL LABS at Marek Health! Also check out the Power Project Panel: https://marekhealth.com/powerproject Use code POWERPROJECT for $101 off! ➢Piedmontese Beef: https://www.piedmontese.com/ Use Code POWER at checkout for 25% off your order plus FREE 2-Day Shipping on orders of $150 Follow Mark Bell's Power Project Podcast ➢ https://lnk.to/PowerProjectPodcast ➢ Insta: https://www.instagram.com/markbellspowerproject ➢ https://www.facebook.com/markbellspowerproject ➢ Twitter: https://twitter.com/mbpowerproject  ➢ LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/powerproject/ ➢ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/markbellspowerproject ➢TikTok: http://bit.ly/pptiktok  FOLLOW Mark Bell ➢ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/marksmellybell ➢https://www.tiktok.com/@marksmellybell ➢ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MarkBellSuperTraining ➢ Twitter: https://twitter.com/marksmellybell Follow Nsima Inyang ➢ https://www.breakthebar.com/learn-more ➢YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/NsimaInyang ➢Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nsimainyang/?hl=en ➢TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@nsimayinyang?lang=en  Follow Andrew Zaragoza on all platforms ➢ https://direct.me/iamandrewz Stamps: 00:00 - Piedmontese Beef 01:10 - About today's guest. 03:55 - Bart Kay joins the show 04:07 - Why CALORIES don't count!! 09:19 - Tracking Calories for bodybuilders 14:08 - Calories IN, Calories OUT: Does it always work 17:51 - Lose weight without a calorie deficit 23:21 - What is the best measurement of energy & food? 28:42 - How Food Choices matter 34:39 - Science behind carnivore diet 40:27 - Optimal human diet 46:11 - Bart on tracking his Calories 48:33 - Bart's opinion on carnivore diet. 49:41 - How did Bart come across carnivore diet 51:05 - Avoid fruits & vegetables 55:02 - Ideal diet for longevity 57:46 - Where can people find research records 1:00:33 - Bart on eating cow meat 1:01:46 - Eight sleep mattresses 1:02:14 - Five health hacks to improve lifespan 1:11:41 - Why Bart is not fan of cardio training 1:21:49 - Satiety Mechanism 1:26:43 - Opinion on Layne Norton's approach 1:33:03 - Law of thermodynamics to human diet 1:37:57 - Application of thermodynamics 1:42:58 - Key to have ideal body composition 1:43:33 - Why Bart is being mean to everyone 1:45:22 - Bart's take on Greg & Layne's views 1:47:46 - Don't change your diet overnight. 1:48:55 - Where can people find you & your work 1:51:48 - Thank You Bart! 1:52:16 - Tracking Calories is inaccurate 1:57:59 - Effect of change in diet 2:06:00 - Like, share, subscribe, comment, follow the podcast 2:06:55 - Smelly's tip 2:07:45 - Outro #BartKay #CICO #PowerProject #MarkBell #FitnessPodcast #markbellspowerproject

Pepper, how's your family? How's it going? Now, we talk about meat a lot on this podcast, which is why we've partnered with Piedmontese and have for years now, because they have some of the best beef on the planet. All right, Piedmontese beef has cuts that are fattier in terms of their ribeyes, and they have also cuts that are leaner in terms of their flat irons, but you can get cuts for no matter what diet you're on. Andrew, how can they get their hands on it yeah head over to piedmontese.com that's p-i-e-d-m-o-n-t-e-s-e.com check out enter promo code power for 25 off your entire order and if your order is 150 a more you get free two-day shipping links to them down in the description as well as the podcast show notes oh dude the internet was different the internet was so fun oh man you know we would all like just like just play this shit and laugh as middle schoolers and high schoolers it was the greatest thing but now this would be very you can't laugh at this anymore

okay let me send this email out and you guys can chat about today's guest. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Are you rolling? We're rolling, yeah. All right. Yeah, today's guest is a kind of denier of a lot of things that I guess we have accepted to be like words, terms, things that we can communicate about to in the fitness community to oftentimes,

I guess, just help people lose weight. So Bart K, his name is, and he talks about how calories are just heat and they don't really represent much. And I mean, I don't want to jumble up what he says. We'll get to it when he's on the show. But he seems to be caught up in the semantics of people utilizing calories to lose weight, people utilizing cardio-type training to lose weight. He's not a fan of any of these things. We've kind of seen people come around before

that talked about these things. We've kind of seen people come around before that have just talked about these things. But he seems to really like adamantly deny that it appears that he doesn't think that it has any value. And that's interesting take on it. While I myself am not a calorie counter, I never really got way into it. self am not a calorie counter. I never really got way into it. I can admit that it seems to be an effective way to regulate, moderate, to manage your body weight is to see how many calories you got in and maybe some sort of estimate of, I guess, what you're blowing out. But he's just kind of keeps saying like calories are just heat, calories are just heat. Calories are just heat. And I don't know exactly what he means.

So it'd be good to try to, I would like to try to learn more about what he's trying to say. And I'm interested to see, is he kind of on a mission to try to help anybody? Or is he just trying to, like, cut people down because he's got different knowledge than they do? Yeah. Paying attention to his content has been pretty interesting because your brother brought him up a few weeks ago. And then as I started going down his content rabbit hole, I'm just going to start with saying I just want to understand his practical aspects of helping people to lose body fat. Right?

So because, you know, I'm not going to get too much into it, but I just want to understand. So let's see what happens here. Mm-hmm. Bart. Oh, we're in the matrix. The pink matrix. Oh, my God.

That's cool. He's surrounded by calories. The meat militia. I don't know if we can hear him. I got him now. Sorry, that was on me. I'll take that loss. Oh, yeah.

Can we hear him now? Yep, we got him. Good. There we go. How's that? Perfect. Great to have you on the show today. Thank you so much for your time.

Appreciate it. My pleasure, Mark. Thanks for having me. All right. Let's just dive right in. What does it mean? You'll say oftentimes that calories are just heat, and it seems like you're not a big fan of even people utilizing calories to lose weight. I'd like to learn more about some of your thoughts on that. I'd like to learn more about some of your thoughts on that. Yeah.

Okay. So the statement calories are heat is a parsimonious throw out hook line. It is designed with Melissa for thought to get people thinking and to cause people to react emotionally to what they've heard. It's for clicks. It's for views and it works. It's backside clicks, it's for views, and it works its backside off. It works really well. Okay. The full disclosure statement is that a calorie is a measurement

of heat energy. It is specifically a measurement of heat energy. It is explicitly measured as heat. It is a form of energy energy is a construct and it's a construct because it has no externally verifiable definition energy is defined by the clever physicists as that which gives impetus to work, basically. And it comes in lots of different forms. It comes in the form of heat,

which is thought of as the lowest form of energy. It comes in the form of kinetic energy, the movement of particles, if you like. It comes as chemical energy stored in the bonds of food substances, for example. And we could go on all day talking about different forms of energy. I think these are things that most people have some kind of a handle on. And the problem with using the calorie as a tool, as a guide to how much energy you actually are consuming in effect in the real world, is that it is vastly, grossly, hugely inaccurate to do so.

The human body is not remotely similar to a bomb calorimeter. The human body is an open thermodynamic system which exchanges both energy and mass across its borders. Can I butt in for just a second here? Please, absolutely, yeah. Do you think other people would agree with that statement that calories are inaccurate? I think because we've got fiber and we've got protein and we have things digest differently, we also can recognize that we're all different. So we're maybe going to intake, uptake the food, regulate the food differently than each person.

So you think most people would agree with that? Look, anyone that understands the physics underpinning any of this at all will have no choice but to accept what I have just said as absolutely correct. will have no choice but to accept what I have just said as absolutely correct. The calorie is an estimation of actual physical real-world energy derived from food by a human body, any given human body, on any given day, under any given set of circumstances, hugely inaccurate, wildly inaccurate. Ergo, if you want to use calories in calories out as a tool to predictably change your body composition, then what you are required to do is vastly grossly under eat in order to make sure that the actual effect of change in your effective energy intake is outside the range of that noise around

the signal so that you definitely are in effect in an energy deficit situation. Vastly grossly under eating for any reasonable period of time is utterly contraindicated. It's bad for metabolism. It's bad for your long-term health. It's bad psychologically. It's just bad in every way. And people running around ignorantly saying calories in, calories out always works. What they are doing is missing the entire point. They're missing all the nuance there. And then what they'll do when I make a video critiquing them on their calories in calories out assertion is they'll take my video, creatively edit it, cut it down, take out bits of it out of context and make it look like I'm some buffoon saying something I

haven't said. Basically, that's the technique. And then they send all their 12 year old pre-pubescent supporters to my channel to bomb that as if that's going to change my life in any way. It's not. Keep doing it, boys, because actually what you're doing is helping the algorithm. You're helping my channel grow and you're helping push it out to an ever wider audience by swarming all over my channel saying stupid, stupid things, which, I mean, the comments I'm getting on my channel from these idiots show absolutely without question that these idiots have not watched my video at all. They've watched somebody else's video, which suggests that I said something completely different to what I actually did say. But anyway, keep doing it, boys. It's helpful.

So, Bart, I'm curious about this because I can agree. Calories are inaccurate. about this because I can agree, calories are inaccurate. When you're tracking certain things on a day-to-day basis, the measurements are not, first off, the measurements are not always the same. You put it into whatever your favorite macro tracking app is, it's going to be off. I totally understand that. But there's a population, and when we look at bodybuilders and physique athletes, let's actually not even pay attention to the NPC side of things where there's drug use. Let's think about the natural bodybuilders and their bikini athletes, whatever, where they only have inputs of food and whatever, and then outputs of movement, exercise, whatever else. and outputs of movement, exercise, whatever else. And this population, because some of their habits are so unchecked,

and this is not indicative of the general population, right? These people are living very structured lives, and extremely structured. Everything that goes in and out is structure. But this population will use calories and say, within a 16-week period, I am going to go from this weight to this weight. And they can do that without fail while shedding body fat and minimal muscle, right? So they're not just losing weight, they are losing body fat, but they're using calories to do it. So I get the calories are inaccurate. I totally understand that. But they are working off

averages. And by working off and changing their calories over time, they're able to get from point A to point B purely by tracking those. And the only other thing I want to add on to that is many people, if they choose to track their calories, some people do choose to vastly under-eat. And that's not good in the long term that's why they yo-yo diet they lose weight and then they gain all that weight back and more but you don't have one vastly yeah yeah it's one of the things that happen but you also don't have to vastly under eat to be able to achieve that really really depends on how accurate

number one you are able to gauge and track what you genuinely are eating and how honest you are even with yourself on that yeah number two it depends on the accuracy of the reported so-called calories contained in foods on the nutrition labels which are allowed by law to be in error by up to 20%. Oh, I understand that. Huge error. Huge error. Yeah. Athletes who are at one end of the bell-shaped curve, who have very, very, very structured lives and who live for this,

this is their job or their occupation or their pseudo job or pseudo occupation as the case may be, their job or their occupation or their pseudo job or pseudo occupation as the case may be some of these people can show good success case by case you say without fail i would disagree with that a lot of people do fail to get the body composition changes they were looking for by tracking or attempting to track calories because partly accurately tracking energy by the use of the calorie in is problematic if not impossible to get anywhere near accurate for most people so is energy expenditure that's just as complex just as difficult to measure and as such you've got an error on the inside of that equation that people are going to be subject to

and an error on the outside of that equation as well. Such that my statement earlier, for the average Joe, for the average person who is not a professional bodybuilder or a professional or sub-professional athlete of that sort, they will have to reduce their effective intake of energy more than that which is sensible in order to be sure that they will get the body composition change that they're looking for in the time frame that they're looking for it. Now you may disagree with me on that.

You may say it works every time, all the time without fail. And I would just have to say, well, I disagree. Well, okay. I have seen so many people fail attempting that methodology.

When we can show another methodology, which requires the person to count absolutely nothing track absolutely nothing whatsoever use purely physiological satiety signaling which does work and it works because it works on the thing that actually really does have the most influence over someone's body composition that being their hormonal and endocrine responses to a species-appropriate, species-specific diet. So there's a few things. Yeah, a lot of threads. Yeah. Of course, many people fail. Many people fail at doing a lot of different diets. Well, that's different from what you said before, because you said without fail, this works.

No. What I said is that within this population of people, there are people who say, I will get to this weight, to this weight in a certain amount of weeks. And they do it without fail. I said those people do it without fail. And I say that they all do it without fail. Those people at the very, very far end of the bell-shaped curve. But I also want to say— They are the exception and not the rule. Understood. But there are also people who do work normal jobs, who choose to compete, who track their calories, and they live normal lives.

I know many of those- And it results very wildly, doesn't it? Well, I mean, results very wildly with anything you choose to do because of the individual that's choosing to do it. I make a choice- And that is my argument. That is my argument right there. But I mean, also, Bart, we don't track our calories.

I'm not over here saying that you must track your calories. I haven't tracked my calories since 2017. And I've maintained a great body composition with habits, as you've talked about. Like, we maintain certain habits that allow us to eat to society, right? That allow us to have certain things within our day. We don't track, right? We eat real food. So, no, I'm not saying that people can do this without fail.

There's nothing that people can do without you know your choices yeah but what I'm trying to get at here is I don't know how we can say that the calories and calories like are we talking about the semantics of calories and calories out or that it's purely wrong because if it was wrong and the only reason why I'm referencing this population okay these population of athletes that track their calories track their intake and everything is because this is a population that is going off of the thing that you say is wrong and they're achieving those results fairly uh extremely accurately some do fail yes but the the ones

that track and they pay attention to the way their weight varies, because it goes up and down, it doesn't just go straight down. They pay attention to those things. They can get from point A to point B by tracking calories. And I just wonder, there's no disagreement here in terms of there are some people who do get the result thereafter. They are the extreme end of a bell-shaped curve. They are an exception to the rule. They are not the rule. You also need to be very clear, if you're going to be honest with your viewers, about what it is I have said about calories in, calories out. And what I have said is that as a tool for Joe Public to use in order to predictably achieve a given output in a given amount of time, it is not going to work for most people.

And by work, what do you mean? As well as they want it to. Okay. stake to do that because what people will find themselves doing is they'll place themselves at a certain so-called caloric deficit at the outset. They will see that it's not working as they track themselves along and they will steadily increase that caloric deficit because I'm just not calories in calories out hard enough. I know how to do it even harder. And they will end up vastly, grossly, hugely under eating for a significant number of months often at a time. And in so doing, they will destroy their

metabolism, they will undercut their health, and they will actually reduce their odds in future of actually ever achieving the goal they're looking to achieve. It's stupid, dumb, contraindicated advice to say calories in, calories out always works. It's the law of the universe and you too are subject to that because that's just false. It's rubbish. How does somebody lose weight when they're not in a caloric deficit? I believe this is something that you've said, but I could be not accurate. Yeah.

What you need to understand, Mark, is that words are important. A spade is a spade and semantics do play a role here. Now, weight is a force exerted on your mass, however that mass is made up by gravity. In effect, gravity is not actually a force, but let's not go there. Gravity. In effect, gravity is not actually a force, but let's not go there. Your weight is a vector of gravity pulling your mass down towards the center of mass of the earth. Basically, your weight is made up in a lot of different components, the largest of which is water. For someone like myself with my body composition, my water composition is around about 63 to 65% of my mass. Okay. One of the things that causes a person to maintain a lot of water in their body

or on their body is inflammation. If you consume a diet that's anti-inflammatory, your body will toss that water off and you will lose weight on a scale. Toss that water off and you will lose weight on a scale. Now, I did a two-week period between the 1st of January and the 14th or 15th, whatever it was, around two weeks, 15 days, something like that, at the beginning of this year, where I was tracking the so-called calories in the food I was eating purely out of interest it wasn't the point of the thing the point of the thing was I was doing a thing called priming which is a program of fastly grossly over eating for two weeks solid prior to a period of body recomp and cutting and stuff after that, which then goes on for 90 days following that. What it does is it sets you up psychologically to be able to do some fasting and make sure

that your body is replete with all the nutrient that you require on board so that you're not going to get short of anything while you're doing the fasting. And it's actually also a little bit diversionary because when you're eating that much food for two weeks solid, you honestly feel at the time, or I felt at the time, I'll speak for myself, I felt like if I never see another steak in my life, that'll be fine. Or any food of any kind, I was just so pumped. Now, for those that want some kind of context here, I am 50 years of age, 5'0". I'm 5'6", and 135 pounds dripping wet. Now, I was consuming 6,000 to 6,500 so-called calories in the form of steak,

in the form of steak, associated fat with that steak, and additional fat in the form of butter and a yogurt-based satsiki preparation. Pretty much. Three full meals a day plus snacks. Pog, pog, pog myself to absolutely rifting for 14 days solid. Here is what happened. I lost 15 pounds, 12 and a half of which give or take was water. The rest of it was actually fat. So there is no way you could say I was in a caloric deficit that would suggest that there was any reason I should have lost two and a half pounds of fat during that two weeks.

Nonetheless, that is what occurred. Was there anything previously that you were doing that may have led to some of the results too? Like maybe you were eating a lot of carbohydrate and then you dropped them out or something like that? I was eating a very small amount of carbohydrate because I've been a very low carbohydrate follower for about 27 years. I'll tell you exactly what I was consuming that was carbohydrate-based or at least some carbohydrate-based. I was having a packet of corn chips maybe once a week, the occasional piece of pizza, that nasty supermarket pizza that comes in a plastic wrap that you put in the oven for 12 minutes, that kind of junk, oh, God, vile. And I was drinking probably 12 units of alcohol a week in the form of cider, a low-carbohydrate cider, but not a zero-carbohydrate cider.

So all of that stuff was dropped out. So all of that stuff was dropped out. However, none of that, all of that added up to anything remotely similar to 6,000 calories a half times over in that two weeks, during which time I lost roughly two and a half pounds of fat off my body and about 12 and a half pounds of water. So calories in, calories out is busted. There are other things at play, endocrine responses, hormonal responses, inflammatory responses. These things are important. They are not included in the calories in, calories out equation. Ergo, the calories in, calories out equation is incomplete. It's reductionist and it is an error. Let me see if I can tackle some of this a little bit. So maybe some of your assertion is something along these lines. And I know that this has been also something that's been put forward due to like

marketing, these like net carbohydrates. Do you kind of think that there's a lot of calories that may be like net calories. Therefore, we have like a lot of inaccurate measures. You did state that you do believe there is a way to, sounds like you stated there's a way to overeat and there's a way to undereat energy, correct? Like we're right with that. But calories as we know them um should be looked at harder if they should be looked at harder what should we look at and what should be a measure so we can help people to like lose weight basically yeah okay so the body fat i get where you're

going there and and it's a perfectly sensible, perfectly sane question. It makes perfect sense to ask that question. Okay, well, if calories are no good as a measurement of effective energy in food, what's a better one? Would be the question. Okay. The answer is the reason that calories are universally accepted and universally used ubiquitously as a relatively reasonable

estimation of effective actual energy contained in foods is because better methodologies to actually measure this energy are vastly complex, hugely expensive kit is required, and probably multiple PhDs to run that kit to make anything like an actually accurate measurement. And so the scientific community and the community at large go, meh, it'll do. My argument is it will not do for most people, precisely because it is vastly inaccurate, and because calories in calories out does not consider your response hormonally endocrine system inflammation system all of that kind of stuff which does play a massive role in your body composition and ergo your weight so go, you'll wait. So then I'm left often with people saying, okay, fine, there is no better measurement. So that's the best one we've got. So why don't we just go with that? And I say,

well, look, people can and do. There are millions and millions of people who support YouTube creators and influencers and people of that ilk who want to get up in front of people on their hind legs and say calories in calories out is great it always works and you should use it too i am always going to disagree with those people because i genuinely know absolutely based on the science and the physics and everything underpinning it that those people are in error for most people they are sending most people up the garden path and they are giving those people advice that will, in my opinion, almost certainly lead to a reduction in their life quality, if not their life quantity as well, frankly. I think it's dangerous, contraindicated and irresponsible advice and it should stop. But that's my opinion on it based on my understanding of the science.

understanding of the science and that said the the ray of light at the end of the tunnel which is not an oncoming train by the way it's actually good news is if you eat a species appropriate species specific diet for a human being you never have to count a single anything or track a single anything you will naturally easily obtain and maintain the ideal physique for you without any effort whatsoever so there's an answer to the problem, to the quandary I think we're pretty aware of that, like if you eat a carnivorous diet or you eat things that are natural from the earth, whatever you deem those things to be I guess we could get into arguments about what's natural and what's not natural diet or you eat things that are natural from the earth whatever you deem those things to be i guess

we could get into arguments about what's natural and what's not natural but for the most part if you eat meat fruit vegetables you're probably pretty good to go and it would be i'd lose the fruit and vegetables what's that i would lose the fruit and vegetables not natural right right and like i said you could kind of argue about this or that. But either way, it would be difficult to gain weight, especially with meat. A carnivore diet only gets to be really difficult. Well, 6,500 calories for two weeks, two and a half pounds of fat off my body and 12 and a half pounds of water. Right, that's a very short term. Would that trend have continued if I continued to stuff that much food into my body for longer? You would be 95 pounds right now.

Well, exactly. I may have faded it away entirely. I'm not suggesting that that's what you should do long term. I'm reporting that is what occurred. Whether people that support Green Do set or not, like it or not, that is what occurred. It's documented in videos if people want to watch them. I stood on the scales at the beginning of the year. I weighed

X amount of pounds. Two weeks later, having stuffed myself with six and a half, six to six and a half thousand calories a day, every day for 14, 15 days. And I was 15 pounds lighter. Suck it up. That's what happened. You know, Bart, I know you're not, I know you don't like Greg Doucette and you you also that's nothing personal i've never met greg yeah um or i guess the information don't like the information what he says yeah the information put forward about calories and calories out but you know when when responsible individuals that are choosing to use this model generally talk about it, it's not just calories in, calories out. You remember, I don't know, back in like 2013, 14, social media, IIFYM, people started tracking Pop-Tarts and Doritos and making this fit into their calories. And as long as they are in deficit, they're losing weight.

And some people were, yeah, people were losing weight. But at the same time, they weren't feeling full. They would have binge eating cycles potentially. Some people who were super rigid, maybe made that work. I did that type of thing for a bit when I was first learning about it. And I was like, Ooh, yeah, I can eat pop tarts and pizza and shit. And I can drop that or whatever. But over time, people continue to learn that, hey, food choices matter. These foods will not help you feel satiated. Even if you're in a caloric deficit or even if you're in a surplus, these foods will drive you to want to eat more. So responsible individuals that are talking and utilizing this model generally aren't saying it's just about that.

Generally, they're trying to help lead people towards foods that lead to satiation. Extra protein. Some people are in favor of utilizing vegetables and the fiber in vegetables to help people feel full. I know, again, they're not natural, not species appropriate, but they lead people down there to understand, hey, your food choices matter.

And if you are choosing to be in a deficit, choose foods that are going to help you feel full so that you can do this for a long period of time. Because if you are choosing to be in a deficit, choose foods that are going to help you feel full so that you can do this for a long period of time. Because if you eat too many processed foods, well, you're not going to be in that deficit for long and it's not going to last a long time. So what I'm wondering is utilizing that model in a responsible approach is something that can help people and can lead them in the right direction. It's not just calories in, calories out. The choices you make with your foods matter along, obviously, with the choices you have for your lifestyle. And it does make me wonder, is this really as dangerous as you're saying it is and my response is that in my professional opinion as someone who really does know this area very very well and who does understand the science

the physiology the nutritional requirements for human beings and such really well the vast majority of commentators on human nutrition in the health and fitness space on the YouTubes, for example, the vast majority of those individuals are anything but responsible. They are incompetent, Dunning-Kruger sufferers of the highest order. They are people who are so destitute of competence in the area that they are talking publicly about, that they are not even capable of grasping the depth of their own incompetence. They are people who will open their mouth in order to get clicks or views or advertising revenue or affiliate funds,

however, whatever their business model is or any combination of those things. Most of these people, the last thing that actually concerns them genuinely at the end of the day is the health and wellbeing of anyone that watches their material at all. In fact, how are they getting good? How are they getting good comments? And like,

people are like, Hey, I lost a hundred pounds. You changed my life. Things like that. People are going to make positive and not so positive comments on pretty much anything and it's up to the individual channel owners i guess or channel managers to decide what remains whether they're going to

delete any comments whether they're going to leave all the comments there, which ones they're going to put forward by pinning them or which ones they're not, who they're going to block permanently. Cause there are people who are making comments that are basically unacceptable at all. Not necessarily to the, to the person who's being commented against, but against things like the YouTube algorithm, you know, vastly, grossly, hugely insulting stuff that you can't put in writing on YouTube,

which seems strange because you actually can put it in words. Like people will notice in my videos that I tend to curse people out. I tend to be very abrasive. I tend to be very, very confrontational. out. I tend to be very abrasive. I tend to be very, very confrontational. It's like I'm absolutely going out of my way to try and offend everybody. Well done for spotting that. That's exactly what I'm doing. Why am I doing that? Because it works. It gets clicks. It means that people are responding emotionally, either positively or negatively.

I don't really have too many people down the middle that say, yeah, your channel is okay. I have people that say, you're great. We love you. We love what you do. You make us laugh. You educate us by subterfuge. It's valuable stuff. We enjoy the characters you play.

We enjoy the comedy. And there are other people that absolutely hate it and that's fine with me because the thing that the youtube's algorithm picks up on is whether somebody engages with material and responds to it emotionally by hitting like or unlike people what people don't understand is if someone hits unlike on your video that's not negative that's an emotional response that YouTube sees as a positive thing, and they will push your video out to an ever larger audience still in the hope that you manage to offend some more people. They can make more advertising revenue out of that.

What if the thing that is suggested by somebody leads someone to eat a larger percentage of meat. You yourself mentioned you eat, occasionally we'll have some different food. And so maybe your percentage is higher than most, but what if a Greg Doucette or Elaine Norton or some of these guys, Thomas DeLauer, ourselves, whoever, lead somebody to go from having a diet that has meat in it once a day to then they're having meat four or five times a day and they're making a lot of progress. Okay. That's a great thing. So if you make one video on your channel, Mark, this week that leads people to become more reliant on meat and associated fat and less reliant on plant material in their diet, I would congratulate

you for that and say you've done a great job. That's a great thing for those people that you've influenced in that way. But that's what people are doing when you undertake a bodybuilding style diet. That's what happens. Well, yes. I think you'll find, I mean, I don't think there's anyone that would disagree that bodybuilders tend to eat more meat. However, bodybuilders also tend to eat way too much carbohydrate, vastly too much carbohydrate.

Too much carbohydrate for what? for lack of metabolic consequences later in life and inflammatory process that will be a problem, heart disease, all those kinds of things. I mean, those are things we can get into at some point if you want to talk about the particular makeup of the diet macronutrient-wise. Absolutely. But to conclude the point I was making, if you made a video that encourages people to eat more meat and less plant material, that's great. If that same week you make a video that says calories in, calories out, it's a good tool. You too can use it and you should use it. That's all there is. Just count your calories in and count some kind of estimate of your calories out and make sure that your calories in is lower than your calories out. Then I would not

congratulate you on that video. I would say that's ridiculous. I don't know if that many people are really saying that. Yeah. Directly calories in, calories out. By omission of a clear, absolutely clear and explicit statement to the contrary saying, here is what the optimal diet for a human being is.

Here is what the nutritional requirements for a human being is. This is the way you should eat as a human being is, here is what the nutritional requirements for a human being is. This is the way you should eat as a human being. If you don't clarify that, then by omission of a statement to the contrary, if you get up on your hind legs and say calories in, calories out is brilliant, it always works and you too should use it, then you haven't done the job. You've done half the job. How have you been able to find the optimal human diet? And is it a carnivorous style diet? I believe it is a carnivorous diet as close to 100% as the person concerned can possibly muster and maintain in their lifestyle, given that human beings are just that.

They're human beings and there are stresses on them. And humans do live in an environment that's not the natural environment that they lived in as we evolved, sure, all understood. The difficulty with this is you can't go to this body of evidence called nutrition science, human nutrition science, and the reason you can't go to that body of evidence is because it does not exist. There are mechanistic speculation studies of a short term under poor control. There are no long-term hard health outcome experimental intervention studies in human beings over multiple decades kept under lock and key under proper observation in a laboratory setting to determine cause and effect. As such, we have an ideology, which is a prevalent ideology around human nutrition,

and that prevalent ideology is based on consensus and not science, and it is bought and paid for. That's where the problem is. So to find what is actually likely, according to actual hard science, to be ideal for humans, health span wise, lifespan wise, all that kind of stuff, you actually have to go to a number of areas of science outside the so-called nutrition science fraternity. You need to go to comparative anatomy and physiology of science outside the so-called nutrition science fraternity. You need to go to comparative anatomy and physiology of human organ systems. You need to go to studies of the metabolic pathways. You need to go to anthropological evidence of such as stable isotope testing from the collagen of long bones of skeletal remains of humans when you do that and you look through all of that material the result is pretty unequivocal

also you need to apply the lens of darwinian evolution as a fact an absolute irrefutable fact um now that does not preclude um an original creation by some higher power or being or God, if you want to believe in that. I'm not saying that's wrong. But since that time, which is clearly a lot longer ago than what, for example, the Bible will tell us, there are processes going on in the human body, in the human genome. human body in the human genome, we are subject to natural selection pressures in the same way any other animal is, or any other bacteria even, or virus or anything. Not that a virus is a living thing, but that's for another day. So those are the things you look at, and all of those things point in the same direction. All of those things tell us that human beings are absolutely obligate hyper carnivores. I kind of agree in some sense that I'm not a huge fan of trying to science a human body as it relates to really anything.

I don't like it in lifting. I don't like it in nutrition necessarily, although it does seem to have some utility. some utility. And from an observational standpoint, it seems like you can, it seems like we can get closer to the truth sometimes on some stuff. Like for example, people that are, people that are able to reach old age and be still have good vitality are usually smaller people. They usually don't have a lot of body weight on them.

Like we can kind of observe that. Oh, I'm doing well then. I'm good then. There's probably, there's not a lot of people that are, you know, 95 years old that are probably carrying around an extra 60 pounds of body weight and things like that. So, but those people, they're not necessarily using a carnivorous diet so like i guess as long as you don't overeat as long as you don't over consume energy for like

really long periods of time it seems like you maybe get a pass to live a long and pretty good life yes yeah i think there is a value in not, for example, carrying extra body mass, not being, for want of a better term, overly adipose, overly fat or obese. Okay, all of those things will definitely lead you to a higher likelihood of an earlier death. I don't think anyone remotely sensible would question that. I think we would all accept that as being a pretty fair statement on fact. If you're over fat, then your likelihood of death for multiple different reasons per year of follow-up is going to be higher. Yes. So you can eat a reasonable diet in terms of the volume of effective actual energy that you're consuming such that you are weight stable and you might live 90,

100 years. Absolutely. When you talk to experts in comparative genetics and comparative anatomy and comparative physiology, and you say to those people, take modern lifestyles out of it, take all of this out of it, just looking at the human system as we can understand it at the molecular level and at the genetic level, if we just got out of our own stupid way, how long should a given living human being live? What is the lifespan of a human as determined by those things? Generally, the answer that comes back is around about 150, actually, for an average human life. That's what it should be if we would just get out of our own way.

The only way really to do that is to eat a species-appropriate, species-specific diet predictably. Sure, there'll be outliers. There'll be people that'll last 150 years drinking an eight ounce bottle of scotch and smoking two packs a day absolutely there'll be someone just to prove that wrong that does that but we're talking about on average here on average the only way to achieve this is to eat the way you are designed to eat as a human being and to exercise appropriately which means appropriate volume appropriate intensity appropriate rest days in between which is another thing that

many lifters get badly wrong but again that's also for another day um so i think what you're saying is true yes absolutely it's better not to be fat but that doesn't mean that not being fat is optimal optimal is following your genetic gift your evolutionary gift following the way you are designed as a human being to interact with the world in which you live as closely as possible in modern societies. Because let's face it, we cannot avoid the toxins that we've pumped into our environment entirely. What you got over there, Andrew? I just wanted to remind people watching, if they really, really dislike what Bart's saying,

go ahead and hit the thumbs down button. Get some of that negative. It works out. All publicity is good publicity. But I did want to go back to some of the tracking and the calories in, calories out thing. And I'm sure you've gotten this many times before, but I'm just curious to hear it, especially for our audience. But the example you gave about the person

that is going to undertake this style of diet and they vastly under eat. And next thing you know, they feel like crap. Their energy is probably going to be super low. And then they either yo-yo diet or they completely get off the diet and they say, it obviously didn't work for me. In my opinion, when I see or when I hear about this example, I would see it more as user error, not the fact that like calories in, calories out doesn't work. So again, I'm sure you've heard this many times, but I'm curious to hear. It's about nuance, Andrew, isn't it? It's about the nuance. It's about saying to someone,

here is all the information you need. Okay. So just getting up and saying calories in, calories out is brilliant and will work. And that's what you should do. We're done here. Thanks very much. Join me next week when we talk about something else. That is irresponsible. That is not the information that person needs to responsibly manage their body composition. That is partial information. That is incompetent.

That is irresponsible. And that should stop. Okay. I've never said anything different from that. Then I just want to go back. Just real quickly, or I guess maybe it can't be that quick. Were you tracking prior to the 6,000 calories a day for two weeks? The reason why I ask is because

to the best of your knowledge, and I have an idea how you were able to understand, but how do you know that you were in fact in a calorie surplus when you took away a lot of it? Like, you know, you said the pizza and then I think you said the pints of beer. So number the amount the volume of both food and alcohol put together that i was consuming if you use 7k calories per gram of alcohol and if you use 4k cals of energy for carbohydrates, which is not particularly accurate, and if you use 4k cals of energy per gram of protein, which is vastly, hugely, totally inaccurate, then on a back of an envelope calculation, my caloric intake typically, My caloric intake typically, fairly stably for the 6-12 months or so prior to that two weeks,

was, without actually tracking it, so this is back of an envelope, this is what I'm eating and I'm being honest with myself, 2,100 to 2,350 give or take per day total. The actual calorie intake during the two weeks was tracked according to the labels you know the the chip that the steaks come in and there's a plastic over that and there's a label on it that says this is what's in it i was using those figures and cross-checking a bit with weighing it because i know about the 20 percent error and cross-checking a bit with weighing it because I know about the 20% error. And the range was 6,000 to 6,500 for that 14, 15 days.

I can't remember whether it was 14 or 15 days. That's why I keep saying 14 or 15. It doesn't matter. That's not really the point. So yes, it was a pretty accurate guesstimate of what was really genuinely going on. So yes, I did increase my effective so-called caloric intake by three and a half times over. How did you personally find the carnivore diet? I really enjoy it. It's something that I would adhere to the 95% adherence level pretty much all the time and I

have done now for about seven years the only things that typically remain in my diet now that are not carnivorous is I drink coffee and I like to have a kind of Satsiki-style thing with my meat, which is really just unsweetened Greek-style yogurt, which is fine and is carnivorous, but there's a very small amount of very finely chopped garlic in it. So I know I have to hand in my carnivore card and report for public naming and shaming. I never really was a carnivore and I did it wrong anyway.

If you like, fine. And then there's the occasional splurge on some corn chips or potato chips. And I might occasionally have maybe five or six units of alcohol after a game of sport on a Saturday. How did you come across this? on a Saturday. How did you come across this? The carnivore diet was a natural progression from my sort of 27 year history or so now of ketogenic lifestyle. The first time I heard about it was when I saw the classic Jordan Peterson podcast with Joe Rogan. And I went, yeah, that makes sense.

I'll check into it because I'm a scientist. I want to make sure that, you know, this is not going to lead me to huge nutrient deficiency. I'm not going to die of scurvy or get bum cancer or something like that. And so I checked into it a little bit and went, yeah, this is fine. I'm going to do that. And I just, I've never looked back. It's made a huge incredible difference to many aspects of my health without any question and i find it something

that's easy to adhere to to a relatively high percentage level it's not problematic it's not a distress or a chore it's really it's now it's just a perfectly normal part of my life now. It's just, it's not even a diet. It's a lifestyle. It's how I do nutrition by eating meat. And when I say meat, I mean muscle meat. I don't eat organs at all. So it's muscle meat, associated fat, and selected dairy products basically is the basis. So for yourself, why is it that fruits and vegetables are out of the picture? And why would you suggest that people also get it out of the picture? Right. Okay.

So there are two or three reasons really. The first reason is fiber, dietary fiber, which is absolutely apparently contraindicated in the human diet. It is not helpful. It does not improve bowel function. There is only one even remotely pseudo-clinical study on this topic available, and it unequivocally clearly says the more fiber, the more gut dysfunction. Over a relatively short period sure um but it's the result is so striking so clear that it's very difficult to ignore it entirely i personally seven years or so with basically to all intents and purposes no fiber in my diet at all. So clearly I haven't been to the bathroom for seven years.

No. Once a day, every day, light clockwork, no stress, no strain, not even cut into stanzas. It's like the machine at McDonald's that does the ice cream. We're out of here. Done. No problem. Perfect function.

Vastly better than it's been for my entire life because I've had every digestive disorder you could possibly imagine at some point. All miraculously evaporated when I removed all the fiber from my diet. The next person maybe doesn't react to fiber as strongly as I do, but make no mistake, they will react to some level. And it will be a detractor on their health span, probably on their lifespan. It will be one of those things that determines that person does not make it to 150. One of many things, probably. So get it gone. You don't need it. It's not required. There is nothing in fiber that you can't live perfectly well and healthily without. It doesn't impact your bowel function negatively.

That's fine. The second reason to avoid fruits is they contain a lot of carbohydrates, which are absolutely contraindicated in the diet. Exogenous carbohydrates above the individual tolerance level. The individual tolerance to carbohydrate is just that. It's a little bit individual. It depends on your age, your stage, your body size, your fitness level, your training status, the time of year. All of those things play into it, absolutely, and a bunch of other things as well. But make no mistake, you cross your tolerance level to carbohydrates and there will be a problem with your health in some way. electrolyte disturbance, palpitations, muscle cramps, attention deficit problems, sleeping problems, those kinds of things. All the things that Paul Saladino suffered, basically.

Did you have more? I don't want to cut you off. Yeah, there's one other. Okay. Many fruits contain seeds, which are perfectly safe if they pass through your elementary track unbroken. But if you chew those seeds up or those seeds are broken down to any degree in your gut, those seeds will release toxins, vastly problematic toxins.

So that are three reasons why fruit is not required. And as a corollary, corroboree, whatever the word is to that, there are people that will say, oh, yes, but vitamin C though. Well, it turns out that if you're not consuming a bunch of carbohydrates, then your requirement for vitamin C is near zero. That's why I didn't die of scurvy six and a half years ago. Got it. Yeah. So that's it. most longevity and i'm not saying the carnivore diet's bad i mean i eat all types of different food personally but i'm not saying the carnivore diet's bad but how do we know that this is the diet that will lead people towards that primary and i ask that question because again we know

many people who do different types of diets and because they're reasonable, they have very high vitality at old age, right? Sure. So I'm just, I'm trying to understand why. I think I understand the question. And the response is that there are a bunch of people with different ideological standpoints on what they believe the best diet for a human being is. There are people running around saying veganism is the way to go.

Okay, they are wrong, unequivocally, but that's for another day. There are people running around saying a balanced diet, a mixed macronutrient diet, the standard Western, standard American diet, take out junk food is the best diet. Junk food is the problem is what those people will say. There are people saying,

all you need to do is avoid seed oils. Seed oils will kill you three weeks before last Tuesday. That's what you need to avoid. Everything else is fine. Eat the carbs if you want. They're not the problem. It's the seed oils. There are people like me running around saying the carnivore diet looks like it's the

way to go. Whichever camp you're in, that statement around what is likely to be the ideal diet for a human being is an opinion, precisely because of what I said earlier, which is that the evidence, the science, the experimental lab-based work is absent. It does not exist and it never will. It's not practical, you can't do it financially, and you can't get ethics to lock people in labs for 40, 50 years. So it's best guess. I believe on the basis of my understanding of science,

the scientific process, the way that we garner knowledge, that the best evidence, the evidence of what I deem to be the highest quality as a very highly qualified, experienced scientist with a significant publication record of my own and a history of teaching at tertiary educations on four different continents over more than a quarter of a century where can people check some of that out if they want to look at absolutely can it's a matter of public record there are there are all sorts of people claiming that i'm making this shit up that i never worked in a university that i'm don't have three advanced research degrees that i don't have a publication record. Just go to Google Scholar and enter my name, for goodness sake. It's there. It's a public record. It's a fact. So with that history behind me, and that's why I don't bother engaging

with those people or justifying myself. I have no reason to. My credentials are a fact, whether you like it or not. Whether you like what I'm saying or not, whether you agree with me or not, makes no difference. I have been a professor of health science and a senior lecturer in academia for more than a quarter of a century, and I do have a long list of peer-reviewed publications in the literature that anybody can find if they want to go and have a look. So that does qualify me to talk a bit about what I think is good scientific evidence and what is not.

And I believe that stable isotope testing, nuclear magnetic resonance spectroscopy, etc., the studies of the interactions and energetics of our biologic processing system, our metabolic pathways, and to look at the design of our organs and our bodies as a whole are good hard sciences. And those inferences are clear and they are unequivocal. They tell us what seems to be the diet that human beings have unequivocally consumed for at least 350,000 years and probably more like four and a half million, actually, given that we have no question eaten that diet, almost entirely meat and fat and no plants to speak of up until 10,000 years ago.

That suggests that that 350,000 to four and a half million years prior to 10,000 ago has informed our genetic structures, our body structures, our organ systems pretty heavily given that Darwinian evolution evolution positive and negative selection pressures is a fact that's what i rely on now if people can see the logic behind that then good if they can't then they're welcome to go and support greg douchebag you know that's fine that's no skin off my nose and they're also welcome to come and bomb my channel and unlike bomb all my videos even the ones they haven't watched and all of those things that absolutely do help my algorithm and help my channel grow how long have we been how long have we been eating cows for cows in the current form as long as current cows have existed um You can argue absolutely that current cows are a human invention

because of positive selection pressure on cows by humans, yes. I don't think modern cows are hugely different in terms of the meat or the fatty acid profiles or the proteins that make up the muscles than more ancient oxen style beasts and oryx and whatever else. There is a shared lineage also with the mastodon, if you like, and the mammoths and all of those kinds of large ruminant red meat animals. Do you think it matters what they eat?

Do you think it matters grass fed and stuff Do you think it matters grass-fed and stuff like that? I don't really know. I would sooner see someone eat a grass-fed, grass-finished meat-based diet than any diet containing any significant amount of plant material at all, any day of the week and twice on Sundays. Sure, there is a slight difference in the fatty acid profile and those fats, but I don't think it's critical, personally.

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Links to them down in the description, as well as the podcast show notes. We don't have any evidence one way or the other. That's a guess. That's an educated guess. So, Bart, I'm curious because obviously we have to work with the environment in front of us. And let's say in your belief, species-appropriate diet is a carnivorous diet. And some people eat different types of diets some people do enjoy eating fruit some people enjoy eating rice there are these things right so for the individuals who let's say the carnivore diet isn't for them

but they want to get into better shape they want to increase their lifespan and health span um but they're not choosing to do a carnivore diet what habits would you suggest this individual have so that they can navigate their environment because some people just like to eat a few fucking doritos here and there even though they're not good for you right what would you how how would you have them navigate their environment so they can still get healthier so they don't have to become obese etc yeah okay i have a video it's a like a in five minutes or less type video i've got a i've got several of those on my channel where i try and tackle a topic as succinctly as i can in five minutes or less it's like a challenge for myself and in that video i outlined four health hacks that i believe in fully and that i myself follow as closely as i possibly can in my lifestyle because i i too am a

human being and imperfect i do like to have a drink of beer now and then or a piece of pizza occasionally or a potato chip you know um a single potato chip just one excellent make sure you track it okay so there are four health hacks that i believe in fully on that video and i'd probably add a fifth one if I had longer than five minutes. Here they are in order of importance. Take or leave any one of them.

It's up to you. It's an individual choice. It's your life. It's your funeral. Number one, of most importance, the one thing that will affect your health and lifespan more than anything else, more readily and more quickly than anything else

is your diet. And I believe carnivore 100% is the answer. I believe plant material should be eliminated from your diet or as eliminated as you can achieve. Okay. So that's number one. The caveat there is muscle meat, not organs. Two, there is a range of supplements available that I'm joint ventured with. I am an affiliate marketer. There are a range of supplements available that i'm joint ventured with i am an affiliate marketer they are a range of supplements that are designed to increase your release of adult stem cells from your bone marrow to your blood whereupon they do magic you can find information about that on the link under any one of my videos on my channel it's a bit.ly forward slash B-A-R-T hyphen K-A-Y.

That's one-stop shop. That's merchandise store, the store for this particular supplement that I'm referring to. Consult if you want to consult with me, it's all there. So if you want to check that out, that's where you find out more about that. I'm not going to say anything about that now because that's not what we're here to do. But that's number two in importance. Adult stem cell circulation, vastly important for renewal and repair of your tissues and the reversing of aging process. I know you're not going to get too deep into that, but personally, I've never really heard of those supplements. Is that something newer? Is that something that... The company has been around in various iterations with various different owners and with different names, but the same product basically,

although it's been improved for the best part of 30 years. I don't know why, but it does seem to be quite a well-guarded secret, although it shouldn't be. Everybody in the world, I believe, should be able to take advantage of this because it's fantastic. Oh, you can go ahead and mention it on my channel where i talk about what i believe the thing did for me i'm not allowed to make a therapeutic claim i'm not allowed to say cause and effect the fda won't allow that but what i can say is i was suffering from a given medical

condition about 12 years ago when i started using this product, 13 years ago now, and that so-called irreversible medical condition that should have left me blind legally by now didn't happen. In fact, my eyesight's better than it was 13 years ago. Interesting. Check it out for yourselves. So that's number number two number three sounds like crystal waving hippie woo-woo stuff it sounds nuts and i don't mind if you think it sounds nuts because i thought it sounded nuts too but it's not there is actual science here and that is you should be grounded electrically to the earth for as much of the time as is possible and feasible in your lifestyle. A physical earth connection. So in effect, how do I do that? I sleep grounded. My bed is grounded. I have a grounding

bed sheet. On my desk in front of me right now, I have my hand on a mouse pad that is electrically grounded. If I'm going to sit and watch television in the front room, there's a wrist strap, ankle strap in there that I can put on. So anytime I'm at home, which is most of the time, I can be grounded. It's a good thing. There are all sorts of things associated with grounding that are vastly useful to your health and lifespan. For example, I'll just give you one. The second you ground yourself electrically, the effect of viscosity, the thickness of your blood drops by a factor of three. Now, when you think about hypertension, stress on the heart tissue, all of that, if you thin your blood down by two thirds, basically, the stress on your heart drops immediately i'll give you a second one just for fun your alpha to delta brainwave activity ratio changes immediately in favor

of rest and relax away from fight and flight okay i'll give you a third one wound healing increases in rapidity say that one more time that last one healing speeds up yeah if you're if you ground x number of hours a day if you have an injury it heals more rapidly which they've tested on mice i understand it's not a human test but you can't again for doing research on humans you can't go around cutting people to see how quick they're going to heal okay quick quick question before you get to number four before you get to number four um with the grounding thing what what i think about in terms of like maybe a simpler thing is a little bit like walking and getting some sun you know what i mean um because getting some sun can help with wound healing walking can be beneficial in

terms of blood circulation i don't know if it decreases blood thickness, but my knee-jerk assumption would be motion and walking would, especially if someone were sedentary. Not two-thirds, but to some degree. Okay. Okay. I mean, the way that one works on the two-thirds is that you absorb electrons out of the earth into your body. Those electrons are attracted to the membranes of your red blood cells so that they are coated in negative ions basically electrons and then the red blood cells repel each other thus allowing because blood is a non-newtonian fluid there's not a lot of good science in this area is there not a lot of good stuff but there is some short term case control studies

and experimental studies that support all this. That's another in five minutes or less video on my channel, electrical grounding specifically. You can look at that one too, if you like. It's really interesting. I've heard people mention that. I've got about 90 different studies up in that. I've heard people mention that a shower

can be a form of grounding. Do you agree with that? Yes, it can, absolutely, because the water is a conductor, basically. And so long as some part of the water that you're showering in is grounded electrically at the other end, then you are, in effect, grounded as well. Yeah. You'd have to have more stream of water of water though than actual droplets that are separated out because as soon as the droplets are separated out and not connected electrically that's the end

of your electrical connection so a stream of water rather than droplets fine all right so that's number three is electrical earthing number four is the avoidance of all artificial and blue wavelengths of light after the sun has gone down below the horizon that is a big deal so orange lenses at night time basically and or those screen filters that you can get that turn your screen amber at night time ideally you'd change all the light bulbs in your house as well and make them amber colored and you know blue blocking light bulbs my good friend harry zapanos does that in his house in tasmania in australia but they're about 30 or 40 a bulb those things so i'm not going there but that's fine he does that good and if i was going to put in a number five, it would be the right amount of the right sort of

exercise in the right volume at the right intensity done in the right way. I was, that would be my top five ways of improving your lifespan, your health span, all those aspects. And I would put them in that order of importance. In what ways are you not a fan of, I guess, cardio training? Right. Okay. Cardio training, and I should really disclaim that as to what I mean, what I really mean there is zone two, the stuff in the middle range of intensity, the stuff above just plain old walking with your heart rate under one, two, five, probably. with your heart rate under 125 probably, and below, if you're 20 years of age, below about 175 or 180. So everything in the middle. So what I'm saying is exercise needs to be down here where it's no challenge at all, and you can do it for hours and hours without any problem, or right up here that's

going to cave you in as quickly as possible, high intensity, burst and repeat, three RM sets, you know, that kind of stuff. The reason for it is because of the way that muscle cells work, because of the fact that muscle cells are trainable in terms of their chemical makeup and their actual physical morphology, if you train for many, many hours in zone two, then your muscle fibers that were more like type three actually morphologically become more like type two. In other words, your muscle fiber makeup in terms of the morphology and the enzymes in the muscle, the number of mitochondria, everything in those muscle cells changes to subserve your

chronic exercise loading. Your body responds to training. As you train, so shall you perform. So if you want the maximum hypertrophy then training in the middle is a bad idea because that will strip muscle mass off you or tend to strip muscle mass off you now if you're doing no exercise at all typically chronically like i don't train anymore at the moment. I haven't trained seriously. Come on, bro. I know I should. This is really disappointing.

I'm kind of – I know it is, but I'm also working 60, 70, 80 hours a week. Oh, come on. You're one of these guys, though? Yeah. Yeah. So I personally am like of my range. I was listening to everything you were saying. Now I've got to circle back and question everything. You're even lift pro.

No, I don't. I haven't lifted really. I used to be a powerlifter some 25 years ago, 30 years ago, actually. actually. I haven't trained seriously for any athletic purpose or body comp purpose for at least 10 years. I've just got to an age and stage in my life where I'm doing other things. I'm working many, many hours a week. It's not an excuse.

That's just what is happening. I should exercise. Absolutely. I'm reminded by my dear partner every day i don't exercise no you know um but i don't um and if i start to exercise and i started to exercise now in zone two i would put muscle mass on because as i said earlier, I'm 135 pounds dripping wet now. Okay. But if I'm your size, Mark, and I do a bunch of type two training, number one, that reduces my energy and my capacity to do type three training, the high intensity stuff, the stuff I should do. It's going to make you feel more hungry because of the way the energetics of that kind of muscle contraction, it's going to make you feel more hungry because of the way the energetics of that kind of muscle

contraction, it's going to tend to strip muscle mass off you. In other words, work against your hypertrophy training. And it's completely unnecessary for you as an athlete. Now, if you tell me you want to run a marathon, I'm going to tell you something different. You need to train specifically for what you want to achieve. You bet. But if you tell me I want to get muscle hypertrophy, then I'm going to tell you to stay away from zone two. That and also years and years and years and years and years of zone two training that endurance athletes typically undertake generally tends to leave those athletes later in life with cardiac problems. Quick question about those types of athletes. Those athletes are individuals who

take that training to that level, correct? It's not just some guy that's just running Zone 2 for fun. It's a person that is- Oh, look, you know, half an hour to an hour of Zone 2 training twice or three times a week is not going to be a real problem for you i'm talking about the blokes that will train sorry shouldn't say blokes it's very sexist people that will train in zone two for hours and hours and hours and hours a week they generally don't make whole bones okay so actually this this is interesting because for example i've been doing jujitsu for seven years i've tracked my heart rate that is a zone two type exercise as far as my heart rate's So actually this is interesting because, for example, I've been doing jujitsu for seven years. I've tracked my heart rate. That is a zone two type exercise as far as my heart rate is concerned.

I do a bit of running. Mark has been doing running for quite a while. Still lift. My goal is slowly gaining muscle over time, maintaining muscle. and for doing jujitsu for this long there hasn't been they're like there's been fat loss but i've been the same weight for multiple years i also know quite a few people who again this isn't someone like we know our friend of ours zach bitter he's a ultra marathon runner right he's exactly so he's on he's on the other side where he's extreme performance for that. But an individual who, like Mark and myself, we want to be able to run a few miles without feeling stressed out or having the body respond.

That hasn't been anything that is really negatively impact hypertrophy. So when you mentioned that. How long would you spar for in a session? Sparring is usually 10 to 15, six minute rounds. And then... Okay. So that's burst and repeat. Even if it might be in the zone two heart rate, that's not rhythmic, steady contractions without rest in between. The heart's not going for hours and hours and hours. Yeah. But that's what i'm talking

about here like the people in our audience that are taking up running or doing something like jujitsu right it's not that my heart rate goes from 150 back to 80 back to 150 it's like it's staying between like 130 and 155 for the duration of the sparring session but no i'm not sparring for three four hours there's no i wouldn't that. I should be clear about the definition of zone two. And I think it's not just a heart rate thing that makes something zone two. It's also the fact that it's rhythmic muscle contraction without rest at a relatively steady rate of output. Steady state. Or steady state for usually several hours in a session.

So when you say several hours, you're talking about like what three four or two like what i'm talking probably upwards of five a week of which at least one of those sessions would probably be a two-hour session or more for it to be a problem that's the kind of zone two you should avoid so if you were saying my jiu-jitsu is zone two purely based on heart rate fine absolutely if you like i'm not telling you to avoid that so because that's probably good for you so yeah this is this is what i wonder though because we know so many people who are doing not like doing two hours of cardio or three hours of running every single day but that are running consistently and that have great amounts of muscle tissue aren't dropping and aren't going away but it's not like they're training like zach right they're they're they're in the middle of

that and that's not really negatively impacting their ability to gain muscle because they are adapted to that stress like for i want to give a quick example when i started running recently again i used to be a soccer player for like 16 years. Stopped doing that. When I came back to running, dude, I could not run a one mile without stopping a few times. That was a few months ago. Now we can all run like maybe two, three miles fairly easily. Mark's been doing 12 or 13 mile runs, but our bodies have adapted to that stress and that stress hasn't taken away from our ability to do things in the gym. And we know people like that. So it's not that we're taking it to the level of being marathon runners, but that zone two training isn't with the way we do it, isn't detracting from our

hypertrophy ability. So it makes me, so, so what you're saying is it's going to impact us later down the road. It's again, it's a bit, how later down the road it's again it's a bit how long is a piece of string it's a bit individual and there is an individual tolerance to cumulative type 2 training load over a lifetime if you trained five hours a week in zone 2 for 50 years you might be running into a problem. Why? So you can do a lot of it. You can do a lot. That's quite a bit.

The human body is able to cope with amazing stress that you wouldn't think it should. We can live 95 years eating crap. That's a lot of work. That is a lot of work. Yeah. And what that does cumulatively is it basically destroys your cardiac function and it destroys your metabolic function. Although the training response immediately to the exercise is an improvement so-called in your metabolic function.

But actually long-term, it tears you down. Would you agree that cardiovascular training, zone two, steady state cardio might be a good idea for people to do some of that activity or do you kind of urge for people to stay away from it all together? Half an hour, twice, three times a week. Got it. At, if you're 30 years of age, you want to go at something like 65 to 75% of 220 minus your age, give or take, something like that. Andrew, you got anything else over there?

Sure, yeah. You had mentioned earlier about eating to satiety might be a better, or sorry, in your opinion, you said it was a good approach. I'm sorry, I don't want to twist the words up. Sure. First off, what does that even mean? And then second, can somebody follow this style of diet without being on a carnivore diet? Right.

Okay. The context of that statement, Andrew, is in the absence of the intake of fiber and carbohydrate. So in other words, if you are eating meat and fat meat and animal fat that is the the satiety signaling that your body will give you when it's had enough nutrition they are powerful for the vast majority of people it is near impossible to overeat on meat and fat and i can promise you i know about this because I did two weeks of it. Remember it was a chore. It was unpleasant. I had to force myself to do it. Okay. It is hard work. It's tough. So what I'm saying is if you eat muscle meat and associated fat, selected dairy products,

so long as you don't react negatively to that and your body composition is about where you want it to be, give or take, then as soon as you get that message where you think, geez, I'm pretty full now, that's when you put the fork down. Even if there are two mouthfuls left on the plate, you don't go, well, I'll just eat these. You don't. You stop. You listen to your satiety signaling. You put that in the fridge and you come back to it later or the next day, something like that, whatever. That signaling is good. You will not overeat on that diet unless you are really, really wanting to the bell-shaped curve and your particular satiety signaling absolutely is dysfunctional in some way. your particular satiety signaling absolutely is dysfunctional in some way. And you'll still struggle because it's hard, hard work to eat that much protein and fat. It will be uncomfortable.

You'll get the meat sweats. You'll feel sick. You'll get the shits probably. You just can't do it. So then can somebody follow that while not being on a carnivore diet? Well, no, because if you're not on a carnivore diet, then you are by definition probably consuming a significant amount of carbohydrate and or fibrous material that will blunt, turn down and destroy that satiety signaling. your blood sugar to tend to drop lower postprandially than it was before you even ate, which will lead you in a several hours later to feel hungry again, to repeat that challenge and pull your blood sugar down still lower again. And so what you'll get is peaks of very, very high blood sugar after eating completely inappropriate carbohydrates, followed by troughs of very, very low blood sugar, leading you to want to repeat the dose. And it's that peaking and troughing of blood glucose

that will destroy your body very, very quickly. But I'm not on a carnivore diet enough. You're fine. But you're also very, very active. You exercise a lot. You lift. You're running. You're doing jujitsu.

You have muscle mass. You're a big bloke. I'm not a bloke. I'm joking. You know how I said a person's capacity to tolerate carbohydrate in the diet is individual? Yes, yes. And it's based on things like age, stage, physical fitness, body size, time of year. You're an example. You're a big bloke.

You've got a lot of muscles. You're very active. Your leeway is much wider than mine. I got you. I'm generally low carbs that you'd eat. Yeah. Get away with it. There are some days we've mentioned there's some days I don't have any carbohydrates, some days where I'm lower carbohydrates, some days where I have higher carbohydrates. My diet personally ranges quite a bit. I haven't tracked in years, but it's, I was just, I was joking around. It's probably,

it's 70 years. If you get up in the morning and you stand in front of a full length mirror without your kit on and you have a look and everything looks fine, you're tracking. Oh.

You don't have to count your calories or macros or any of that. Absolutely. You are keeping an eye on your physiology. Absolutely. Yeah. So you are tracking. Yes. You're just doing keeping an eye on your physiology. Absolutely, yeah. So you are tracking what you're doing in a way that works. Yes, I am.

As you now understand the mechanisms, you've found a methodology that works for you individually, and you've got enough experience with it that you know when it's going awry. Yeah. I would say it's probably fair to say that we probably eat 70 to 80 percent meat most of the time right yeah if not like some days it's 100 but yeah most of the time about the environment what's wrong with you yeah fucking let it burn destroy it i think there was a song about it the roof the roof Bart, I'm curious about this. So with an example of Lane Norton,

where do you think he and his messaging is going wrong? Because he's actually an individual that I think he's great at having a nuanced approach and messaging when it does come to calories in, calories out. He's a big fan of fiber, big fan of a varied diet. He seems, I mean, we've talked so many times, his approach does seem very reasonable and it does follow through with that calories in, calories out paradigm. Is there something wrong? Or if there is something wrong with what he's putting forward,

where is it? Okay. Lane is the holder of a phd in nutritional science and he has i think something like maybe a dozen or slightly more peer-reviewed publications to his name i think he worked in academia for less than 10 years and now he's self-employed good good luck to him, that's fine, as am I these days, fine. His apparent credentials stack up, but it's not until he opens his mouth that you find huge holes in his understanding or his messaging or whatever. And sure, I might be strawmanning him a bit for clicks and for views.

Why not? It's not like I've never been strawmanned myself. But when Lane Norton says things like the first law of thermodynamics states that mass is conserved, straight away, there's an absolute opportunity for me to jump all over the boy. Because number one, the first law of thermodynamics says nothing remotely similar to that. And secondly, the reason it doesn't say that is because mass is not conserved. It is not conserved. He's wrong on that completely.

In a context of in everyday life, he might be right. Because when the human body processes carbohydrates, fats, amino acids, and alcohol alcohol that mass does not disappear so he's right in that way but he's not again he's not giving us the full information and he's presenting it in a way that gives me an opportunity to go look you don't know what you're talking about and so obviously i jump all over that because that's what we do here in terms of this kind of let's have some niggle between us. Let's start some shit. Let's go for the next step. He said niggle.

There we go. So, yes, I'll do that. And I believe that the contention that calories in, calories out is a predictable, valid, robust and useful tool for Joe Public to use in order to make changes to their body composition through dietary intervention. I believe that to be a badly flawed argument. I believe that to be false. I believe that on average, that will not work precisely because it's only half a story and you need absolutely to understand the very, very vital role of the endocrine system, the hormonal system, endocrine system, the hormonal system, inflammatory systems, etc. in what a person's eventual body composition is. And there are many examples of times when calories in, calories out, standalone as a statement, because that's what it is. Calories in, calories out implies that there is nothing else

to worry about. Eat less, move more. That's what Calories In, Calories Out says. And unless you clearly state that that is not correct and there is nuance and you need to do several things correctly, then you're not giving the full story. Now, I believe Lane makes an attempt to give us more nuance. I genuinely, I'll give him that. But he then says things like fiber is indicated. No, it isn't. He will say a balanced diet is a good thing. If it fits your macros, he'll say. No, Lane, mistake, wrong, false. He will say things like, you should avoid saturated fat because of the cholesterol issue. No, wrong again. False. So yes, he's got credentials. Yes, he can present himself as credible when he wants to, but half of what he says is demonstrably incorrect. And as such,

given the way I've chosen to present myself on YouTube, the way I've chosen to be combative, abrupt, abusive, rude, obviously I'm going to jump on those things and point to those things immediately. I'm not here to make mates with Lane Norton. I'm here to suggest to Lane that if he actually had any testicular fortitude whatsoever he would face me man to man and have a discussion with me online live on camera wherein we can work out who it is that knows their stuff here out of the two of us and he's refused on several occasions

to do so instead of dealing with the arguments that I make, which are actually unassailable, that's why he won't engage. Instead, he tries to undercut me by claiming things like, for example, I never did work in academia. He claims that the university I claim to lecture at or to be a professor at doesn't have a record of me, etc. These are all lies. or to be a professor that doesn't have a record of me, etc. These are all lies. Purely to avoid and to save face, instead of actually fronting up for the discussion on the topic matter.

We can even do it politely. I don't even need to swear at him. I do that for my stick on my channel. But if he'd rather have a discussion with me sensibly and academically, I'll tear the boy to bits. There's no two ways about it. People just assume that I'm not capable of doing that with a real genuine academic purely because I behave a buffoon on my channel. So they think, therefore, that must be the only tool I've got.

It's a sucker punch. Why do you think we applied the law of thermodynamics to human diet? And is that what it was originally for? And how long have we been doing this for? Right. Okay. limited example of the practical application or upshot of the law of conservation of energy as outlined first probably by Emily Nerther more than anybody else I would suggest. It was designed and formulated by folks who were wanting to understand the relationship between heat energy and the capacity to encapsulate that heat energy in a closed system and use the force of that heat

energy to translate that energy into physical movement, kinetic movement of a piston in a closed system in order to drive a train down a steam train line that's what thermodynamics was about thermo heat dynamics movement so originally had nothing to do with a human being nothing whatsoever and the first law of thermodynamics being a case limited example by definition absolutely demands that its dictates which are mathematical and not words, by the way. So often I say to people, they say, oh, the first law of thermodynamics, blah, blah, blah. And I say, great, tell me what that is. Quote it for me.

You know more about this than I do. You're the expert. I'm just an idiot here, clearly. You tell me, what is the first law of thermodynamics? I don't want to put you on the spot guys, but I'm betting my bottom dollar. You guys couldn't do it. If I said to you, what is the first law of thermodynamics quoted?

Cause almost nobody does know. Almost nobody knows. I'll just take a guess. I don't have any idea. Neither be created nor destroyed. I don't know. That's what I was going to say. Say that again.

Sorry, matter can neither be created nor destroyed. Right. You know. That's what I was going to say. Say that again. Sorry, Mark. Matter can neither be created nor destroyed. Right. You got that directly from Lane Norton, didn't you? I don't know where I saw it, but yeah. That's just something you hear. That's something you hear a lot. I mean, I was going to say the same thing.

That is a statement of a so-called law of conservation called the conservation of matter, which is false. Matter is not conserved in physics that is a falsehood anyone that knows physics understands that the thing that is conserved the quantity that is conserved regarding matter in some way is actually energy matter is a form of energy a condensed form of energy actually but that's for another day that's not the important point here the important point is that the law the first law of thermodynamics is a case limited mathematical statement regarding certain aspects of the law of conservation of energy in a set context. That context being a closed thermodynamic system. By definition, that is the requirement. Absolutely. Because the first law of thermodynamics

says delta U is equal to Q minus W. That's all it says. Nothing else. There are no implications. It doesn't invoke any law of anything. It makes a clear statement. And it says, the internal energy of a closed thermodynamic system, the change in internal energy in that system, is equal to the specific heat capacity of that system minus any work done by that system. In other words, put heat into a system and you can cause that system to do work. Do work in a system and you will produce heat in that system. That's the interaction. The statement of the first law of thermodynamics makes no statement whatsoever about mass, precisely because it is case limited to a

closed thermodynamic system that is incapable of allowing mass to cross its border. Example, a closed bomb calorimeter. Human beings are not a closed bomb calorimeter. We can exchange mass across our system boundaries. I'll give you an example of that. I've just breathed out a bunch of mass. How much calories was in that mass that I just breathed out? No idea. First law of thermodynamics does not apply to an open thermodynamic system. We're done. People that don't understand that should stop saying the first law of thermodynamics says because they don't know

what it says. And Lane Norton does not know what it says because he thinks it says mass is conserved. It says nothing remotely similar to that. One of us is an actual scientist with an actual history of doing a significant amount of science. And the other one is Lane Norton. Real, real quick question. Yes.

When I pay attention to a lot of, a lot of these things, the thing that, I guess the thing that I care about is when applied to the individual, is this going to be something that is going to help them get to their goals or is it not? And that is so general. But at the end of the day, I think of like in practice, will this work and will this help? I get the law of thermodynamics thing. Apparently, it's incorrect right but i mean and it's incorrect and it's also communicated by a lot of other

people okay so that's wrong yeah but i immediately i just immediately think why why does this matter like why is this important? So what? But it matters because it's wrong. I'm not saying it doesn't matter. But I mean, in the larger context of helping somebody get from point A to point B, that's where I'm just like, okay, I get it. But why? Right.

Let me kind of encapsulate that in the best way that I can. At the end of the day, there are all sorts of people in the world that will offer you advice on all sorts of topics. It is up to you. It is your responsibility with the best of your ability and your intelligence and the things that you've got going for you and your ability to research things for yourself or whatever. It is up for you to decide who you want to listen to, who makes sense and who doesn't make sense.

Will a straight out statement, calories in, calories out, eat less and move more, will that assist people, some people, any people in losing weight? Sure. Some people will succeed doing that. Yeah. Sure. Is it predictable? Is it definite? Will it absolutely work without question? No, there is a question that it might not for you. A, because you'll be unable to accurately track your calories in. B, because you'll be unable to accurately track your calories out. And C, because you don't understand the interaction between energy in and energy out as that relates to your endocrine system, your hormonal system, and your inflammatory system. D, you might believe charlatans like Lane Norton who say mass is conserved and the first law of thermodynamics says so. You're going down the wrong path.

You may not only not succeed in your goal, but it's likely that if you follow that advice to the point where it does actually start to work for you, most people that do that will have to under eat to a degree that is unhealthy long-term and will crush their metabolism, destroy their prospects of long-term health, be very damaging to them psychologically probably while we're at it, it is not good advice. That's why it's important.

That's my professional opinion based on more than a quarter of a century in academia, teaching this material to postgraduate students, researching this myself independently as a research scientist, and undertaking multiple multi-million dollar consultancies externally with major organizations with huge budgets and a lot to lose. I like some of what you're saying because I don't want to get into the LDL thing because it's going to be too long. We can have you on another time and discuss that. But it kind of reminds me of people talking about cholesterol and then mentioning these statins that could potentially help.

And the root thing that we're trying to stop in that case is like heart disease. But we might be just looking at the wrong thing because we might have the wrong information at the root of the very beginning of how this meme got propagated outward. And I personally have been a person that has not been a huge fan of calories. I have been saying for a long time that I feel that they're very inaccurate, especially when it comes to the protein side of things. And I've always found it really interesting when we do have guests on the show and we start to ask them, we're like calories, calorie, and they're like,

yeah, well, kind of except for protein. And then they're like, well, kind of except for a fiber and kind of, you know, so it's a lot of, it's a lot of nuance, but I think what people can carry with them from this show is if you increase the amount of meat that you eat, you're going to help drive down hunger signals, which can help you over time control your appetite. And when you make better quality food choices over a long period of time, it's going to be hard to continue to gain weight. And for many individuals, it most likely will help them to lose weight, especially if they bring in a little bit of exercise. I think that's kind of the overarching theme here, right? Yeah.

Look, if I was to close off with just two things that I believe people should do, all people should do. If you want to have close to ideal body composition. And I'm not talking about hypertrophy training, musculature, I'm talking about your fat carriage here. Okay, here's what you should do. Stop eating plants and plant material and fiber and carbohydrates, and stop consuming any seed oils at all. Do those two things. Eat to satiety on muscle, meat and fat of animals. Why can't you just be nice and just say that? And not be so mean to everybody. Well, because, I'll tell you why.

I'll give you this one. People often say to me, why the hell do you behave the way you do on the internet? What the hell is your problem, they say to me. And I say, actually, I don't have a problem. Except this. I actually have another YouTube channel where it's all collar and tie,

no swearing, no cursing. It's just, here's the science, boys and girls. Nobody fucking watches it. Damn it. They're not interested. People want to be shocked, hooked, amused, offended. They tune in because they want to see what's this guy going to say now. He's got a point.

What's this crazy bull mofo from New Zealand going to say next? That's why I do it. Because at this stage, I have a relatively small following of around about 30 000 give or take who are quite fanatical followers love what i do you think it's amusing as hell enjoy the fact that i'm educating by subterfuge before people realize i've done it because anyone that actually sits through this entire podcast mark and listens to every word i've had to say in this not one of those people will be able to come back to you and say that guy was an imbecile he was an idiot he didn't know what he was talking about because i fucking do

that's how i get it in but by shocking you that i actually do know what i'm talking about because you expect that i'm probably not going to based on what you think I've said because someone like Greg Doucette takes some of my videos and cut sections out of them out of context and paints me out to be the lyricant he's done me a favor all right I have a question for you though I have a question for you because this this kind of started with calories in, calories out without nuance is going to lead most people to fail. Yeah. Now, I know Lane is the thermodynamics thing. Okay.

That's wrong. Greg screams Seiko from the mountaintops. Yeah. And he's wrong. But, but, even though this is the paradigm of their messaging, those two, Greg has a cookbook where there's a lot of nuance. I know you don't agree with the vegetables and the fruit, whatever,

but there is nuance to allow people to eat to satiation. Lane has books, he's put things forward where there is a lot of nuance when it comes to this messaging. It's not just Seiko, more move less right so with that being said aren't you taking one thing and going at it versus the nuance of the messaging they have as far as nutrition is concerned what you're asking is, is this a straw man argument by me? And to some degree it is.

Okay. For clicks, for views, for the advertising revenue that comes along with it, for notoriety, for the ability to push my channel out there. Yes. But it's only partly a straw man because it is still very, very important that people understand that based on my very, very important that people understand that based on my very, very significant background, understanding, knowledge, experience, scientific, whatever, it is my absolutely firm and unshakable belief that the optimal diet is a carnivore diet 100%. And anyone suggesting that any significant amount of plant material of any kind in the diet is good

for you is in error and they are not doing people a favor by saying that it will do damage it will shorten health span it will shorten lifespan i believe and so i am vehemently opposed to people suggesting that the intake of a balanced diet of any kind, carbohydrates of any kind, fiber of any kind, anyone saying that's a good idea in my mind is absolutely unequivocally in error. And they are doing harm. And most of those people don't have the credentials to back up what they're saying. Why have so many people had some real blowouts during World Carnivore Month? What's some of your speculation on people just having to camp out on the toilet when they primarily move over to just eating meat?

Liquified. I make what you mean. Yep. Liquefied. I make it very, very clear at all times whenever I'm talking about this to people on my channel, on all my videos. I don't know how many times I've said this. Please don't change your diet markedly from anything to anything else overnight. Do not do that. That will mess up your microbiome. That will cause you to get the shits or constipated or any number of other problems that can occur.

You must change your diet slowly and steadily over a number of weeks. Yes, a carnivore diet is ideal, but not tomorrow if you're not there today. In about six weeks from now, do steadily ramp wise slowly otherwise you will end up with the shits almost certainly if not worse where can people find it where can they find out more information about you okay so my main youtube channel is that one there it's the bark k health science channel that's the one where I'm cursing and swearing at people I greet and Lane Norton. That's the one where I'm as

abrasive and confrontational as possible. That's the one where you'll sometimes see me pretending to be some kind of military officer. That's actually more to do with that channel, the Meet Militia, hence hence that character he's called the field marshal and he's got a little mate called lord edward yellow yellow ted who was also very sweary in his own right that is a horror movie bear bro that shit is scary man yeah um so there's the health science channel there's the meat militia channel i've got a third channel which is the professorial collar and tie no swearing no cursing here's just the science channel um that's called the institute for health

science integrity i've got several other little youtube channels as well i'm actually a failed musician as well so i actually play guitar and sing so i've got that on there as well there's another channel all about how beautiful New Zealand nature is. It'll blow your socks off if you're interested in that. If you want to consult with me on any aspect of anything, you can do that at the bit.ly forward slash Bart hyphen K-A-Y address, all of which, all of these things you'll find linked in the show notes under all my videos

on my channel. I've got a presence on Instagram, which I look at once a week, if you're lucky. My email address, if you want to email me and tell me exactly what sort of a see you next Tuesday I am, then you can, absolutely. You'll find that email address on the about tab on the front page of my fine, fine, actually science-based YouTube channels. Or if you punch my name into the search engine of your choice, the first 10 pages of results will be videos that I've made and posted or people commenting on videos that I've made and posted saying how much they agree with me.

Because no one's ever said anything negative about me online so far. It's been really lucky in that respect. Tee hee. I also post videos on the odyssey platform as well which is a more what's touted as a more free speech platform less censorious shall we say than the youtubes that's quite important for someone who behaves like i do online so all my old videos that used to be on YouTube that are not on YouTube anymore are over there on Odyssey. If you want to see those,

that's the main places you'll find me. Enjoy binge, watch, have a laugh, and you'll learn something by subterfuge before you realize you've learned something. Hey, get your ass in the gym.

Would you? Oh yeah, I will. I really will. It's, it's one of those things on the never, never. It's always this year.

I'm getting back to, I'm going to lift some more. 2023. All right, Bart. Thank you so much for your time. Appreciate it. Thank you. Have a great day.

Thank you. All right. See you, boys. See you. It was pleasant. It's good. It's great to have people on that you don't agree with. It makes for easy, I guess, conversation, easy topic. Mm-hmm. So overarching things. One big thing that I think that we all agree with is long-term for most people, tracking calories is not probably the ideal solution.

You know, within like remember Hopper Rican, a medical hots who came onto the show, she's an amazing shape. She talked about the way she eats very regimented, tracks everything. And she said, this is sustainable for me.

That isn't sustainable for most people. Chris Bumstead said like i think three weeks out he cuts his calories for like 1200 and rides that out and goes and competes and gets in crazy shape right i mean that he doesn't sustain that forever no he did just for a period of time he'd be fucked like like bart did mention right so i you know he's very careful with those words and he makes sure that people are careful with the words

that they use and I do appreciate that because he does have a point that number one tracking calories is inaccurate

when people do it correctly it's within an average so that's why they can get those results but most people that is a big impact on your lifestyle that's a that's a lot of attention paid to people, that is a big impact on your lifestyle. That's a lot of attention paid to this thing. That's a lot of attention that's paid to what you're doing.

Whereas if you change your habits and you choose a diet that allows you to eat to satiation, it can be easier, much easier actually, and could probably work for most people. It's always easy to kind of point out what you feel is easy when you do it and you have success with it. And then you want to share it out with other people. And you're like, this is what works for me. And because it worked for me and it worked for Andrew, I know it's going to work for you.

And you get all excited. And trying to pick out what's easy is not an easy thing to do because each person's lifestyle is so different. And when we think about it, our success rate with diet is like really, really poor. We do not do very well with it. His solution, however, would his solution work for people to switch to a carnivorous style diet? Yeah. It would work if they could do it, but to have any adherence to that. would his solution work for people to switch to a carnivorous style diet? Yeah, it would work if they could do it, but to have any adherence to that.

So I think a lot of times what we're trying to do on this show is we hear somebody talking about like eating pizza or ice cream. I'm obsessed with this. I'm obsessed with that. Like I, what I mentioned to David Weck, like he talks about how much ice cream he eats and I tried to give him a suggestion and he's like, it didn't work.

But he also didn't try it. My suggestion to him was, he likes to eat ice cream every night. And I said, well, just buy, every time you go to the store, just buy like one thing of ice cream. And then just don't go to the store for a couple of days. But he just didn't think

that that would be something he can follow because it's kind of all or nothing. And I didn't realize that. So I would have to curtail the diet towards somebody who has that mentality. I mean, a carnivorous diet, I don't think that anyone would disagree that if you got rid of plant materials, which we got to keep in mind are in processed foods and you got rid of seed oils again processed foods got rid of all processed foods and primarily ate meat um i just i can't even uh i can't even think of someone that wouldn't have success if they were able to actually do that they did it and that so that is the thing where like and it will work but will you be able to make it work for you and that's the thing i

think bart did say this he mentioned that calories out calories calories in calories out does work it works with people who are actually able to apply it the thing is that is not most of the population that's is that seems to be the main gripe here i would agree that there's something fishy with it too where it's like you try it and you're like, I didn't really move yet and then you go lower, lower, lower. I think that does happen to some people in some places. It happens to some people, but the thing is

you're not supposed to do that. That's personal choice. User error. That is user error in action. I agree. If you're tracking your calories, right. And I'm not, I'm not saying you need to, well, okay. I tracked my calories for years back in the day, especially when I did a lot of shows, it did help me understand what's in food. That's why,

like nowadays I navigate things without tracking as far as putting the food on the scale. Even right now, I'm, I'm, I'm being very careful. I'm saying I'm tracking without putting the food on the scale. Even right now, I'm being very careful what I'm saying. I'm tracking without putting my food on the scale, but I kind of have this thing in the back of my head, this calculator that goes on. To be honest, we're always tracking. We are always tracking because, yeah, we are always tracking. You see yourself in a video on Instagram,

you don't look the same as you did three weeks ago, you're going to make some changes. But we know how to make those changes intuitively. We know how to make those changes on the fly. But the thing is, is like with people, the reason why like it works is because there are people that are doing it with great success. So the big thing is how can we add as much nuance into that topic? So if people do choose the route of tracking, they can have the highest success rate possible. Give them tools that allow them to eat to satiation.

Give them tools that allow them to have daily habits that will lead them in that direction, right? There's so many things that can make this higher statistically relevant. Same thing with carnivore. You know, give them some nuance. Maybe try some red meat because it's more nutrient dense. Maybe do this, this, because then maybe they'll enjoy the diet and they'll be able to stick to it. It's kind of the same thing with this nutritional messaging. I'm not a PhD in nutrition, but we try to give as much nuance as possible so you can have

the most success. We know there's a lot of great information out and around on all kinds of things to solve your problems and people will have an issue and you'll just think wow i i'm aware of five or six books that are on that exact topic that this person is mentioning to me and of course yeah it would be helpful for you to go and read those three or four books but like i'm a person that doesn't read i choose not to read so you know to force a carnivore diet on somebody might be a similar thing. They don't want to do it. They don't want any part of it.

Maybe they don't really love meat that much. Maybe it's scary to them. I think that's a big factor for a lot of people. Things are scary and things are perceived as like painful almost like that. People think it's going to take away their fun. They think it's going to change their life in a real negative way. And they could be right. There's going to be a lot of changes when you change your diet and you get rid of alcohol and you get rid of a bunch of stuff.

It might change who you hang out with. Yeah. I think it's done that for us, right? Absolutely. The alcohol things again, you know, you can fit alcohol into your diet. We just choose not to drink much. You actually had some wine this weekend, right? I did.

I saw that on your story. Look at you. Some red wine. But yeah, there are just certain things we don't do. I don't choose to drink a lot because I know where that can lead. know that'll fuck up sleep you don't want to be a fucking loser exactly that actually is what it comes down that truly honestly for me i'll be a fucking loser if i drink a lot i know that if you drink a lot you're not a loser maybe for me i'll be a loser we have no self control yeah so hey i i i you know going into this conversation, I think that I was prepared to get frustrated because I wasn't sure if there would be things that we could reach some rational agreement on.

But Bart is smart and he's very careful with the way he puts things forward. I think in essence he wants people in this space to be more careful with how they put ideas forward. I would say it's almost helpful that he's not in the fitness space. He kind of is though, right? He's coming out in the more in the science-y research-y space. And I think that whether it be Lane or Greg or us,

like we're all, we're all gone. We're all out to lunch. We all, we're all a little crazy. But there is a thing that he, that he holds a point. Like, I think that Greg is doing a great job because like he does have nuance. Same thing with Elaine. But if anybody is putting forward information on this stuff, you do have to be careful with kind of how you do say things. You need to be careful. Like, I mean, I'm not personally dogmatic as far as nutrition.

Like, he says the carnivore diet is the ideal diet. There are people that are thriving on quite a few different diets. But you should try to include as much as possible. And in today's way that a lot of content is foot forward, especially like TikTok, Instagram, where it's shorter form, things are put forward with no nuance and it gets clicks and views. So someone who's trying to learn about something in terms of nutrition, they watch a one minute video. Hopefully they'll do this of more of a service than watching a one minute video. But seeing that, seeing someone say, you can eat all this in your diet as long as you just track your calories, right? video. But seeing that, seeing someone say, you can eat all this in your diet

as long as you just track your calories, right? If you don't do that, you're probably going to fail because there's no nuance behind it, right? So that's what we should continue to try to do. We should try to add nuance into the things that we say. Yeah, and it's tough because I think that people trail off. You know, like people will, whether something's clipped or not, you'll clip it.

Right. Like you'll be like, oh, the guy said eat more protein. But you didn't hear like the follow up that the guy said. Maybe the guy maybe the three or four things he said behind the protein thing was actually really important for you to listen to. And you just you just took that one thing with you. And that's how we that's kind of how we get successful because we're like, all right, I'm going to take that. I'm going to put that into practice. I'm going to try that. And that's kind of how we get successful because we're like all right i'm gonna take that i'm gonna put that into practice i'm gonna try that and that's kind of how we do things so it's hard donald's and then you just get four patties instead of one there you go

you get a get a couple big macs and a and a french fry and a chocolate shake more protein though right right it's still carnivore right because the milkshake's dairy and the bun isn't necessarily real there you go it's like a yoga mat exactly so it's not plants and if you eat the french fries with the meat it all is a wash well you know you can keep those fries on a you know on a board whatever you could store them they never go bad so that means you just eat them and it goes right through your system you shit it right out put them on the ground outside and they ground and you get the energy from the earth well so the the thing about up the calories the thing about the fries though that i especially appreciate is because um the potatoes already

cold and then they heat it so when it's it's already you know it's warm in the ground starch it gets cold out in the air and then it gets reheated so it turns into a resistant starch you know that and that increases its thermic effect because you eat it warmer so it burns faster it takes less energy to burn maybe or more energy more energy so you okay more heat this is total neuroscience guys are fucking with you it takes more energy to eat a lot of foods that produce a lot of gas too so that might be something you might want to look into and then also you have to stand in line at mcdonald's you're burning calories you'll be gassy but you'll be ripped you'll be ripping them yeah exactly you know i would i would go as far as to say that a majority

of ripped people are gassy oh yeah you don't want to be behind anybody that's ripped i think it comes with the territory yeah you gotta be careful it's because they're eating those plants those plants and protein my girl's gassy and she's in good shape. I think that is a good indication of being in shape. Do you fart or not? Often. Being healthy. I know I helped Jessica Smith's dad years ago. I helped him with his diet.

And he was so frustrated. He comes back in like a couple weeks later and he's like, he's like, I'm down like 20 pounds or something. It was like in three weeks or something. I was like, that he's like but man i've never been so disappointed he's like i haven't farted the entire time he's like this is terrible he's like i i'm known i'm known for these things my identity yeah i was like damn that's pretty awesome yeah my wife was filming my son doing something cute. And then I'm just in the background.

I didn't know she was filming. And I'm just ripping ass. And she's just like, babe, I'm recording him. And you're just in the background. All you hear is you farting the whole time. Oh, my bad. Dog, do you know if, you know, my dogs fart a bit. And I fart a bit.

I don't think my house smells like fart. But you also don't smell your own smell. And my girl farts a bit too, so we don't know. Somebody walks in, they just get fucking clotheslined by the fart smell, and they're just like, whoa, what happened? It's kind of funny how you just let loose when you're sleeping. You don't really know i like when i i went to the bathroom the other night and i come back i'm like whoa

i'm like i must be just like dropping them over here not even knowing like and not even knowing because i'm asleep or whatever like god damn it was thick andy must love you bro because you she's stuck around dealing with that man that's wild good for y'all yeah i don't know i think it's just the money she's in she's a real andrew take us out of here let's get out of here before anything worse happens so uh thank you everybody for checking out today's episode um i don't know if the dislikes actually will help but if they how about you just don't if if the dislikes actually will help, but if they, how about you just don't,

if they just give it a like, if, because a lot of people probably did hit that dislike button, please hook it up with some help and hit that, that like button just to kind of try to even out some of the other ratio there. And I dropped some comments on what you guys thought about today's conversation. Hit again,

hit that like button and then subscribe. If you guys are not subscribed already, follow the podcast at MB power project on Instagram, Tik TOK and Twitter, my Instagram, Tik TOK and Twitter's at I am Andrew Z links for everything we talked about is in the description. But if you guys want this quick shortcut,

just go to power project dot live for everything podcast related and SEMA, where you at? Check out the discord below power project dot live. Like Andrew said for the devil pussy mug and a bunch of other stuff we're adding on there. At Nseema, and you can go on Instagram and YouTube. And Nseema, you can hang on TikTok and Twitter. I'm at Mark Smelly Bell. And where we had a lot of agreement with today's guest is on the matter of protein.

So I want to encourage you, once again, I think I say this all the time. I want to encourage you to utilize protein leverage utilize protein as a leverage uh to help you with your diet so try to jack that protein up i also agreed with what he said don't try anything like randomly overnight oh yeah so if you're not if you're not really sure on how much protein you eat uh there's no reason for you to to uh wake up tomorrow and try to strive for 250 grams of protein out of nowhere. Start out light and easy so that way you're not shitting yourself all over the place. But I found it really useful.

I think all of us have found it really useful to really jack that protein up and make the diet kind of surrounded by the protein being the main source of your food. Strength is never a weakness. Weakness is never strength. I'm at Mark Smiley Bell. Catch you guys later. Bye.